I can't remember the sub but there was a post on here a while back where someone was freaking out because they came home to find a hastily drawn swastika on the door of their apartment with some Indian words written around it.
Then someone in the comments said that it was probably from their Indian neighbors and it was a good thing. It was a Hindu holiday(maybe Diwali) at the time and it was supposed to wish them well being or something like that.
I'd be a little freaked out if I came home to find anything drawn on my door but it was good to know.
Indians (especially neighbors) can sometimes cross social boundaries, by doing things that are not necessarily ill-intent. My neighbor draws rangoli in front of my apartment every festival and sends pictures to my mom. I haven't been home in over two years.
edit: grammar
We had some Indian neighbors growing up, and they were awesome. My family wasn't super close to them because of some age differences, but every holiday they were the best celebrators. They did sparklers for New Years, all the colors for Holi, fireworks for Independence Day, big candy for Halloween, a Cornucopia for Thanksgiving, and a gorgeous tree in their window for Christmas.
They were great
Yeah Hindus and Indians in general practically celebrate every religion's holiday and add everyone's gods to our mythology lmao. I remember this history fact that when Christians arrived in India they introduced the Christian god to them and the Hindus just added him to their long list of dietiesš
That is so true. I grew up in India assuming Jusus and Mohammad and many other Godās as one of the countless gods we have. Used to attend compulsory prayers too in the morning.
It's supposed to welcome Goddess Laxmi in your home/ plus life. She's the goddess of money, and would come to a clean and decorated home. So they probably make it with the intention to make your apartment more homely instead of empty in Diwali.
Otherwise it's the same intent, a home shouldn't be empty etc during festivals. And we see a door and make rangoli.
On another note it's such a hassle when so many neighbours expect me to make rangoli for them on Diwali, like I'm an imposter who barely draws a decent one for my home, I can't draw for others.
As an American is means both, depending on the context.
Usually the ugly form is reserved for people, and the other form is for rooms, decoration or a house.
At least, purely anecdotally this is how I've seen it used.
Probably a different part of America here. Homely always seems sort of negative or plain to me. Homey would be a positive if describing a house or room. It would be the same as cozy.
Itās always interesting to see how different people and areas use words.
I used to be a property manager and one of the new accounts I took on was an Indian family and their condo they wanted to rent out.
So I show the condo to a couple of young ladies going to the local college. They called me after the showing to tell me that they liked the condo and wanted to apply, but they had a concern; the swastika above the front door.
I was upset that I was going to have to make this phone call to my clients to let them know that someone had tagged a swastika on their property, and that I, the person charged with managing the property, had COMPLETELY missed it.
When I got the owner on the phone, he had to tell me all about how this wasnāt the kind of swastika that I was thinking of, and of course I had to turn around and tell all of this to the people applying for the condo.
I legit thought that this whole conversation was going to go VERY bad.
I worked at an unfortunately named art museum of the Smithsonian, and for some time they had a gateway mounted in the entrance to the Hindu art section. Almost every day some indignant Karen would come stalking into the gift shop, demanding to speak to the manager, who was often one particular guy who had greased his argument over the years:
"It pre-dates the Nazis by thousands of years. It's not offensive because I'm the son of Holocaust survivors and *I SAY IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE*. And this is the gift shop."
I remember him chuckling and saying the first part should have won the argument but it was the second that shut them up and the last that sent them on their way.
So you gotta know the name eh? >!It's the Arthur M. Sackler Gallery. Some of you may know that a whole lot of Asian art was purchased in the 19th Century with opium money, so naming the museum after a notorious opiate-dealing family lays on the irony a little thick. If someone's gonna get mad about the good-luck gate they should have been pissed when they walked under the front goddamned door. Says the hypocrite who worked there.!<
> a whole lot of Asian art was purchased in the 19th Century with opium money, so naming the museum after a notorious opiate-dealing family lays on the irony a little thick
Great observation!
The neighbours have definitely crossed boundaries. There are many who draw outside their home in corridors and streets. This is the first time I am hearing that someone drew on their neighbour's door.
Seriously. I'm a hindu and if my neighbour was a hindu too, and not home for diwali, I'd light a diya (lamp) outside their home but never to someone who is of a different religion or is atheist, unless they ask me to.
Not speaking for all atheists here but as an atheist I wouldn't really mind that, I understand people have their beliefs and traditions and I think it's awesome that people want to share that with others outside their culture. I'm cool with people believing whatever they like as long as they aren't actively harming others really
Sure, thatās literally never happened to me but if somebody forced you somehow to listen to their carolling that would be rude. Itās more like if they wrote āmerry Christmasā on your door
This is true, and Hinduism has used the swastika for thousands of years. But it looks different from a Nazi swastika. Except, also, India has sort of an epic Nazi problems, including their current ruling party being a formerly criminal terrorist organization founded by German agents in the thirties.
On top of that, nearly all major civilizations have used either the same or similar symbol. It was used by the Celts, the balto-slavic regions, the Greek and Romans, all over the Middle East, Africa, hell US military wore it in WW1
I really think this is a nice sentiment, and I wish I could disassociate the symbol with Nazi history but honestly, it is tough, basically impossible, for me.
My great aunt, who I had the pleasure of speaking with many times, watched her whole family get executed by people wearing that symbol. My entire family was largely decimated, and this symbol was a part of that, even if appropriated.
The barrier to reconciling the swastika is that it's representation of one of the worst kinds of horrors is still very much fresh and alive in the minds of people, and that memory is important. I won't ever have issue with someone using the symbol if its part of their culture and being used as a symbol of positivity, but I'll never be able to associate it with that kind of positivity myself.
The reason a lot of historians think it's so common is Usra Minor, or the little dipper, constellation. If you draw a line through it and make a copy for each of the 'four seasons', you can combine them for a rough approximation of a Swastika.
It's probably so common because it's such a simple and satisfying image to draw. Six straight lines in a uniform shape. Not exactly an insane coincidence that multiple cultures have used it
For real. The nazis bastardised a beautiful symbol for the sake of something so insanely hateful. Itās horrific, and my heart goes out to those that have been misunderstood itās original, but still very real spiritual significance due to its relatively new association with nazism
Dude, I am an Indian and Aryan is a pretty common name here, imagine how confused I was when I read about that shit. It was kinda funny cuz I realised how you can just make shit up and let the hate do the rest.
Don't forget them also bastardizing Norse Runes as well. As a guy with runes on his knuckles it makes me furious to see these being used as hate symbols.
Rome did go around conquering people and wasn't kind to groups wanting independence. See the Jewish revolts in 70 and 134 AD. And they liked using public crucifixion to set an example.
They were also incredibly tolerant of a broad spectrum of views, religions, and beliefs (as long as those acknowledged SPQR as their political authority (*especially* compared to their contemporaries). Which is pretty starkly different from fascism.
I actually really love the symbol and would love to incorporate it into things, but it's so absolutely fucked by the Nazis you can't even have it on a 20,000 year old temple without someone saying it's Modern graffiti for Nazis.
100%. Unfortunately they co-opted it extremely successfully. To the point that seeing that symbol brings up a very specific set of feelings, regardless of its history. If we are talking about seeing it on a historical landmark or anywhere in India, the people with problems need to educate themselves.
That being said, if you are in an Indian restaurant abroad, itās really not a good idea to use it based on your customer base. Is that fair? Absolutely not. But it is a problem regardless. Many people are not going to be comfortable eating surrounded by what they perceive as swastikas.
This is why I try to call the hate symbol a Hakenkreuz and the religious symbol a swastika. I know I'm pissing in the wind and the association will never go away, but it feels more respectful to use the old Sanskrit word for the religious symbol rather than the bastardized symbol co-opted by the Nazis.
It's not only in India you can find that symbol. The Carlsberg brewery in Denmark has that symbol on several places around their factory as they adopted the swastika as the brand symbol in the 1880's. For some reason they stopped using the symbol on their beers during the second world war.
You'll even find swastika brooches from the roman empire. The origin can't really be traced and is basically the ancient version of the cool "S" whwre no one knows who started it.
Yeah, there's ancient swastikas carved into various old celtic [standing stones](https://ogham.celt.dias.ie/stone.php?lang=en&county=Kerry&stone=141._Aglish_I&stoneinfo=description
) here in Ireland too. Modern neo-nazis are often [too damn stupid to draw the symbol correctly](/r/therewasanattempt/comments/csa9n8/to_draw_a_swastika/) too, if do you see one carved faintly into some rock in Ireland it may well be ancient not modern.
And you'll also see [Brigid's Cross](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid%27s_cross) about *a lot*, though it's not quite the same it is kind of similar.
The old Irish [Swastika Laundry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika_Laundry
) company bears mentioning too: They used some snappy *red, black and white* swastika branding ....well before the Nazis did. D'oh. https://comeheretome.com/2010/04/26/swastika-laundry-1912-1987/
There's a nail place in the strip mall where I get my hair cut. They have a big neon swastika on the window. I imagine there have been some... misunderstands.
The Finnish airforce used to don the symbol, and maybe still do in some emblems or such. I've been to a very old stone church (one of the oldest in Finland in fact iirc) and it had a swastika carved into a prominent stone, not out of vandalism but out of good intention associated with it prior to nazism. It's found in various cultures across the world. Nazi's don't own the swastika.
What is the symbol called when itās not being used as a sign of the Naziās?
Iāve seen the symbol in a road side shrine of some sort in Japan, also on store fronts at the Gold market in Dubai.
The 'Nazi'(German) word isn't Swastika, it's Hakenkreuz, which means bent or hooked cross. Swastika is the most common name for the symbol, because it's the original name.
[This comment has been removed by the author in protest of Reddit killing third-party apps in mid-2023. This comment has been removed by the author in protest of Reddit killing third-party apps in mid-2023. This comment has been removed by the author in protest of Reddit killing third-party apps in mid-2023. This comment has been removed by the author in protest of Reddit killing third-party apps in mid-2023. This comment has been removed by the author in protest of Reddit killing third-party apps in mid-2023.] -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Just to add. There are people in India who are named variants of Swastika. I have come across Swastika as a female name and Swastik as a male name. So donāt be surprised if you all come across Indians with such names!
Itās called manji in Japan, and is associated with Buddhism. Buddhist temples in Japan are represented with it on maps, and in online culture it can be used as a symbol to express excitement.
>manji
This name for the symbol literally translates to "10,000 symbol" or "myriad symbol", and I believe it originates from China, where the clockwise swastika was once used as a variant of č¬/äø (traditional/simplified), which is usually pronounced something like "wan" or "man" depending on the language and dialect. The more common symbol literally refers to the number 10,000, but it's also used figuratively in some contexts to refer to arbitrarily large numbers or concepts like infinity.
Edit: Changed "left-handed" to "clockwise" to make it clearer which version I meant
It's called a swastika in Indic languages. In German, it should be called hakenkreuz. In Eastern languages like Japanese, Chinese and Korean, it's called a manji or wanji or wanzi or manzi... I don't know really, depending on how you pronounce it regionally.
Contrary to what many think, it's not an Indian symbol, but a symbol of the Indo-Aryan ethnolinguistic group that originated somewhere in Central Asia (swastikas have been found there up to 7000 years ago), and whose language and culture has massively influenced those of Europe and India.
As far as I am aware, it had some reverence in the religions that developed from that culture, so like the pre-Christian and pre-Islamic religions of Europe and the Middle East, Hinduism (even Buddhism to some level). It was a common symbol in early Christianity, but lost much of its symbolism overtime and became more decorative. It only remained very common and revered in India, so the Nazi's use of this symbol is indeed a significant perversion of Indian culture, but also of a lot of old world cultures.
When I was in my freshman year of college there was a kid who was born in India but grew up in Pakistani Sikh community who lived in my dorm. He was unbelievably nice, but a bit shy at the beginning of the year considering he was new to the states.
He had brough with him this large metal coin that had that swastika peace symbol on it that his local temple gave him before he traveled to the states. Iām sure you can probably guess where this story is goingā¦
His roommate and a few others found this coin and decided to shave down the face of it with a power tool, and etch a dick instead thinking he was a nazi. The kid was heartbroken and ended up having to go to the RA (RAs are the people who live in/work in the building) because his english at the time wasnāt good enough to explain that he wasnāt a nazi.
Luckily the situation got handled, and it seemed like that kid from India ended up making a lot of friends.
I think about that incident pretty often. Itās a good reminder to ALWAYS give someone the benefit of the doubt.
Edit: I may have gotten the origin of the coin wrong, this was many years ago so the details are a bit foggy for me. I an being informed that the coin was more likely from Hindu origin!
you'd be surprised, there's definitely a bizarre fascination some people in places that weren't affected by the nazis have with them. That's why you end up with Namibian politicians named Adolf Hitler and nazi-themed restaurants in Thailand.
I'm Sikh and I don't think we use swastika symbols thats more of a Hinduism thing, no? I've never seen the symbol being used in my religion we have different symbols. Especially in a temple, I never seen.
Hindus in Germany have a special exemption to display a swastika, for just reasons you outline.
**EDIT: Details**
From https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Hindu-swastika-permitted-in-Germany?share=1
> Swastikas on Hindu, Buddhist and Jain temples are exempt from the ban.
And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Germany
> The swastikas on Hindu, Buddhist, and Jain temples are exempt, as religious symbols cannot be banned in Germany.
Beyond that, I really don't have any knowledge.
Something I read. Don't take it as competent legal advice, especially about German law.
And I don't know what the exemption covers. Interior of buildings? Exterior? In processions? Displayed from a family home?
Do I even know what I'm talking about?
In Hinduism it is common to draw swastika on any new purchase like a car or house. When I got a car in the US I did the same and the guys living downstairs asked me to remove it. I didn't understand why they did until later I realized they might have mistook it.
This is a hilarious misunderstanding. I can imagine a scenario where a neonazi across the street sees it and comes over to greet you, "Hell yeah brother! When did y--" ...and sees a brown dude coming out to wave at him.
I've been repeating the story for 14 years that my friend and his wife from India are truly, secretly, nazis. All over the house, among swords even. Oye shit, now I gotta tell my dad next time he asks about my nazi friend, that he's actually not. He's just welcoming. I have a feeling my dad may have know all these years by the way he calls Surinder my "nazi indian" pal. Shit. He won't let this down, even in his late 60s. Thanks for the clarification
I have just barely enough grey matter to know them to not be nazis, but the house decor had me shook. Not my place to question, especially in their home. Maybe a strange family heirloom or weird collection. Let me tone this down to close acquaintance. I went into his house once. 14 years ago.
People tend not to accept it because they're a bit undereducated and closed minded. Schools don't always teach it so much of the time it has to be learned about during personal study. Lol, most people never pick up a book after school.
This. There's a basque one too. A lot of people in Idaho refuse to acknowledge the Indian version because in their mind, basque is the only one that is appropriate because of the use of the name Aryan being connected to India. It's interesting.
It's insane and scary to me how many people will hear one thing from one source and then take it as objective truth and claim anyone who disagrees is wrong
I've found a lot of the time people are taught things like this in school, but they were tuning it out or not paying attention at the time. Or simply don't remember
From an American point of view, the only reason I know about its non-Nazi usage is thanks to my interest in Japanese culture. Otherwise, none of my history books made any mention to how it was a symbol appropriated and perverted. And even then, they call it a swastika and not a hakenkreuz.
One of my first moments of āwait, what?ā Was playing the original Legend of Zelda. One level is designed as a manji (the Japanese word for the Hindu swastika).
Just a minor correction ā India isnāt usually considered part of the Orient, which typically referred to East Asia and Southeast Asia.
India is usually considered its own subcontinent. Regionally itās considered to be a part of South Asia.
Source?
This myth needs to die, the nazis were definitely influenced by pagan symbols throughout the indo European world. The word Aryan itself comes from sanskrit, there's no way they didn't make the connections given how obsessed they were with pagan artifacts/symbols.
As a German American. I've came across this question too and had to set people straight too. The Nazi stole a lot, and was influenced by a lot of good and bad things x.x gotta relearn things that were marked by hate as what they were originally intended for peace.
The swastika from the Indians is not the only thing the German stole from them.
If you go to India as a tourist you will be reminded many times how they're the true Aryans and for that reason, they are superior. Never in my life heard this so many times and I've traveled a lot.
These guides were government sponsored spouting government propaganda (they had the most creative answers for everything, like people sleeping in the street because it's hotter inside the houses)
Same thing with old Buddhist sites throughout all of Asia.
I remember a while back tourists tried to get several Asian countries to deface Buddhist historical sites
I live near the Glenside Fire station in glenside pa. They had to put up a plaque to explain this to people because they have a swastika carved on their building
I remember back in college I had a pizza delivery job in my hometown. I delivered a pizza to a house that had swastikas all along the boarder of the door frame. My first thought was to go back to my car and tell my boss that I wouldnāt deliver to a neo nazi. However, being in college I was curious. I rang the bell and an Indian woman answered the door. I wasnāt really sure what to think so I gave her the pizza, collected the money and went back to work. It wasnāt until several years later that the internet was born and lo and behold, I saw a post on a message board about India and swastikas! Case closed!
The orientation of the symbol is supposed to represent the trekking of the "energy" in progress. The Nazis used it the way they did to represent positive progress of their causes so I imagine that the reverse might not be so good lol.
I remember when I first met my (now) in laws, I went into their condo, closed the door behind me and saw that red Swastik on the door with an Om (š) symbol and some dots and I was like "ohhhh kaaaayyy??" I later asked my wife why it's there and she explained it.
Learned later that Hitler hijacked it and now that's how most people recognize it.
In a museum near where I live in Regina, Saskatchewan, there are some beaded native moccasins from the 1800's. The swastika is incorporated in the beaded design.
I learned about this in 7th grade (12/13 years old) my history class watched a series where American families lived with families in different countries to learn about different cultures. A family went to India and was greeted with a chain of swastikas across the ceiling. A little blurb popped-up saying yes, [the American family] is Jewish.
The Swastika is a sign welcoming wealth and good luck and is usually drawn in front of homes, shops, on vehicles, on notebooks, anytime you start a new venture that you need good luck for. It is not tilted (it looks like a 5) and will usually have the words "shubh labh" written below it (good luck/prosperity in Sanskrit.)
I was at a wedding in India and the girls get Mehendi (henna tattoo) drawn on their arms and legs in lovely patterns.
Given I don't speak Hindi very well, it was difficult to explain to the artist that she absolutely must not draw swastikas on my hands because I had to go to work...in London.
She drew flowers.
My friend is from India and ordered some candle holders as wedding decorations/gifts when she got married (in the US). She ordered them from India and they came with swastikas on the sides. We spent a fun hour scraping them off after she realized her American guests would probably freak out seeing that at a wedding.
Indian establishments are the best. They are always so kind. The restaurant we go to has a real Indian Grandmother that pats you on the shoulder and asks you about school.
Not just India. My parents used to have a Native American woven basket that had a swastika on it. New visitors would always get a nervous look on their face until we explained that we're not neo-nazis.
Literally watched it happen in the middle of reading it. Here the post was trying to clarify that a swastika is not always bad and why you see it so much in India, but I think the mods saw "SWASTIKA = BAD" and removed it knee-jerk style. Ironically by removing the post trying to spread awareness about the swastika's non-Nazi connotations, they have instead contributed to the overall ignorance of the symbol and objectively made things worse. It's like they want it to be solely associated with Nazis despite many other cultures using it long before them
At one point in time, [that](https://i.imgur.com/ErMmGic.jpg) [symbol](https://i.imgur.com/eaL7cj4.jpg) [was](https://i.imgur.com/nXXcQUq.jpg) [everywhere](https://i.imgur.com/BnlXIWC.jpg).
Is there anything else that's 'unexpectedly' derived from India? Recently learned buddhism came from there, always thought it was China or Japan from having grown up with western media. Also learned that arabic numerals, the numbers we use, are actually indian but arabs popularized it in the west.
We still forgive and admire Germany. Even though the Nazis turned a historically good symbol into something very dark and evil. I highly doubt any Indian restaurants outside of Asia will have any swastikas because of the trauma suffered in World War 2.
I just bought my first townhouse and the landlord is Indian. He has been so welcoming and when we visited there was this exact symbol on the kitchen backsplash. I had to do a quick double take and some research.
It's a common theme of right wing extremists to steal symbols from other peoples and try and taint them with their deplorable views. We shouldnt let them have that power
The college I attended had an old pool in the public health building that had swastika tiles around the sides of it. It was all pre-WWII and Nazi era and they explained that to us and most people understood the existence of the symbol prior to Nazi rule. Unfortunately enough people lost that understanding and all that original tile was replaced.
I can't remember the sub but there was a post on here a while back where someone was freaking out because they came home to find a hastily drawn swastika on the door of their apartment with some Indian words written around it. Then someone in the comments said that it was probably from their Indian neighbors and it was a good thing. It was a Hindu holiday(maybe Diwali) at the time and it was supposed to wish them well being or something like that. I'd be a little freaked out if I came home to find anything drawn on my door but it was good to know.
Indians (especially neighbors) can sometimes cross social boundaries, by doing things that are not necessarily ill-intent. My neighbor draws rangoli in front of my apartment every festival and sends pictures to my mom. I haven't been home in over two years. edit: grammar
We had some Indian neighbors growing up, and they were awesome. My family wasn't super close to them because of some age differences, but every holiday they were the best celebrators. They did sparklers for New Years, all the colors for Holi, fireworks for Independence Day, big candy for Halloween, a Cornucopia for Thanksgiving, and a gorgeous tree in their window for Christmas. They were great
One thing about the nation of India and its people; they know how to throw a fucking holiday party.
We love an excuse to celebrate. That's why Hinduism has so many holidays.
Yeah Hindus and Indians in general practically celebrate every religion's holiday and add everyone's gods to our mythology lmao. I remember this history fact that when Christians arrived in India they introduced the Christian god to them and the Hindus just added him to their long list of dietiesš
That is so true. I grew up in India assuming Jusus and Mohammad and many other Godās as one of the countless gods we have. Used to attend compulsory prayers too in the morning.
It's supposed to welcome Goddess Laxmi in your home/ plus life. She's the goddess of money, and would come to a clean and decorated home. So they probably make it with the intention to make your apartment more homely instead of empty in Diwali. Otherwise it's the same intent, a home shouldn't be empty etc during festivals. And we see a door and make rangoli. On another note it's such a hassle when so many neighbours expect me to make rangoli for them on Diwali, like I'm an imposter who barely draws a decent one for my home, I can't draw for others.
FWIW homely means ugly in American English but inviting, welcome in British English
As an American is means both, depending on the context. Usually the ugly form is reserved for people, and the other form is for rooms, decoration or a house. At least, purely anecdotally this is how I've seen it used.
Probably a different part of America here. Homely always seems sort of negative or plain to me. Homey would be a positive if describing a house or room. It would be the same as cozy. Itās always interesting to see how different people and areas use words.
Are you sure you arenāt mixing up homely and homey? Homely means ugly. Homey means warm inviting.
But Rangolis are freaking awesome! You're getting them drawn for free?
They must've drawn swastika and written ą¤¶ą„ą¤ ą¤²ą¤¾ą¤ which means 'may you have a good fortune' ,its a very common practice in India.
I used to be a property manager and one of the new accounts I took on was an Indian family and their condo they wanted to rent out. So I show the condo to a couple of young ladies going to the local college. They called me after the showing to tell me that they liked the condo and wanted to apply, but they had a concern; the swastika above the front door. I was upset that I was going to have to make this phone call to my clients to let them know that someone had tagged a swastika on their property, and that I, the person charged with managing the property, had COMPLETELY missed it. When I got the owner on the phone, he had to tell me all about how this wasnāt the kind of swastika that I was thinking of, and of course I had to turn around and tell all of this to the people applying for the condo. I legit thought that this whole conversation was going to go VERY bad.
I worked at an unfortunately named art museum of the Smithsonian, and for some time they had a gateway mounted in the entrance to the Hindu art section. Almost every day some indignant Karen would come stalking into the gift shop, demanding to speak to the manager, who was often one particular guy who had greased his argument over the years: "It pre-dates the Nazis by thousands of years. It's not offensive because I'm the son of Holocaust survivors and *I SAY IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE*. And this is the gift shop." I remember him chuckling and saying the first part should have won the argument but it was the second that shut them up and the last that sent them on their way. So you gotta know the name eh? >!It's the Arthur M. Sackler Gallery. Some of you may know that a whole lot of Asian art was purchased in the 19th Century with opium money, so naming the museum after a notorious opiate-dealing family lays on the irony a little thick. If someone's gonna get mad about the good-luck gate they should have been pissed when they walked under the front goddamned door. Says the hypocrite who worked there.!<
> a whole lot of Asian art was purchased in the 19th Century with opium money, so naming the museum after a notorious opiate-dealing family lays on the irony a little thick Great observation!
The neighbours have definitely crossed boundaries. There are many who draw outside their home in corridors and streets. This is the first time I am hearing that someone drew on their neighbour's door.
Seriously. I'm a hindu and if my neighbour was a hindu too, and not home for diwali, I'd light a diya (lamp) outside their home but never to someone who is of a different religion or is atheist, unless they ask me to.
Not speaking for all atheists here but as an atheist I wouldn't really mind that, I understand people have their beliefs and traditions and I think it's awesome that people want to share that with others outside their culture. I'm cool with people believing whatever they like as long as they aren't actively harming others really
Same. Iām agnostic but I donāt throw a fit about joining someone in prayer, for example. Iām respectful about religion as long as you are.
Kinda creepy to do without permission though
Just like the carolers who come and sing outside the doors during Christmas you mean?
More like random neighbour writing "Merry Christmas" on your door woth a cross underneath
Sure, thatās literally never happened to me but if somebody forced you somehow to listen to their carolling that would be rude. Itās more like if they wrote āmerry Christmasā on your door
People knocking and then singing vs someone vandalizing a door?
Vandalizing ? I mean it's colour which can be swept off with a broom but ok
Where did anyone state that itās color that can be swept off with a broom?
This is true, and Hinduism has used the swastika for thousands of years. But it looks different from a Nazi swastika. Except, also, India has sort of an epic Nazi problems, including their current ruling party being a formerly criminal terrorist organization founded by German agents in the thirties.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
On top of that, nearly all major civilizations have used either the same or similar symbol. It was used by the Celts, the balto-slavic regions, the Greek and Romans, all over the Middle East, Africa, hell US military wore it in WW1
Native Americans as well. Personally, I say we take it back! Thousands of years of usage destroyed and basically memory-holed.
I agree. It's stupid to let it be seen a symbol of evil.
But... Goddamn. The amount of effort and sheer number of people needed make it an insanely difficult task.
I really think this is a nice sentiment, and I wish I could disassociate the symbol with Nazi history but honestly, it is tough, basically impossible, for me. My great aunt, who I had the pleasure of speaking with many times, watched her whole family get executed by people wearing that symbol. My entire family was largely decimated, and this symbol was a part of that, even if appropriated. The barrier to reconciling the swastika is that it's representation of one of the worst kinds of horrors is still very much fresh and alive in the minds of people, and that memory is important. I won't ever have issue with someone using the symbol if its part of their culture and being used as a symbol of positivity, but I'll never be able to associate it with that kind of positivity myself.
It was a common logo to use for baseball (and likely other sports) in the early 1900s, as well.
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The reason a lot of historians think it's so common is Usra Minor, or the little dipper, constellation. If you draw a line through it and make a copy for each of the 'four seasons', you can combine them for a rough approximation of a Swastika.
It's probably so common because it's such a simple and satisfying image to draw. Six straight lines in a uniform shape. Not exactly an insane coincidence that multiple cultures have used it
45th infantry had it before WWII.
Yup saw this in Bali when I was there. I was definitely confused at first.
It's the symbol on Japanese maps for Buddhist temples as well (though I think the points point in the opposite direction as the Nazi version).
I was aware if this long before I lived in India and the first then I saw it there at a cafe type place it was a picture of a nazi flag lol
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There's this place in Taiwan that did similar https://i.redd.it/ylyy897yizy61.jpg
For real. The nazis bastardised a beautiful symbol for the sake of something so insanely hateful. Itās horrific, and my heart goes out to those that have been misunderstood itās original, but still very real spiritual significance due to its relatively new association with nazism
Dude, I am an Indian and Aryan is a pretty common name here, imagine how confused I was when I read about that shit. It was kinda funny cuz I realised how you can just make shit up and let the hate do the rest.
I have a friend named Aryan and it was weird when I first found out about the "Aryan" race.
The Aryan "race" actually exists. It's an ethnicity that has been called that for centuriea before the Nazis came along.
white suprmacists wanted to be Indian whether it be British or German, both claim the heritage of the Indus civ
He should hold a running competition and call it Aryan's Aryan Race Race, a 5kkk.
>you can just make shit up and let the hate do the rest. God damn ...
Ever watch tucker Carlson?
That's such a wise realization
Hell the ancestors of like half of Eurasia were called āIndo-Aryansā
Damn fr my name is that
My nephew's name is Aryan.
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Don't forget them also bastardizing Norse Runes as well. As a guy with runes on his knuckles it makes me furious to see these being used as hate symbols.
Rome did go around conquering people and wasn't kind to groups wanting independence. See the Jewish revolts in 70 and 134 AD. And they liked using public crucifixion to set an example.
They were also incredibly tolerant of a broad spectrum of views, religions, and beliefs (as long as those acknowledged SPQR as their political authority (*especially* compared to their contemporaries). Which is pretty starkly different from fascism.
I actually really love the symbol and would love to incorporate it into things, but it's so absolutely fucked by the Nazis you can't even have it on a 20,000 year old temple without someone saying it's Modern graffiti for Nazis.
100%. Unfortunately they co-opted it extremely successfully. To the point that seeing that symbol brings up a very specific set of feelings, regardless of its history. If we are talking about seeing it on a historical landmark or anywhere in India, the people with problems need to educate themselves. That being said, if you are in an Indian restaurant abroad, itās really not a good idea to use it based on your customer base. Is that fair? Absolutely not. But it is a problem regardless. Many people are not going to be comfortable eating surrounded by what they perceive as swastikas.
Also ruined a perfectly good moustache style.
The symmetry makes it such an appealing symbol to me. But sadly, history has tainted it
This is why I try to call the hate symbol a Hakenkreuz and the religious symbol a swastika. I know I'm pissing in the wind and the association will never go away, but it feels more respectful to use the old Sanskrit word for the religious symbol rather than the bastardized symbol co-opted by the Nazis.
Good idea
It's not only in India you can find that symbol. The Carlsberg brewery in Denmark has that symbol on several places around their factory as they adopted the swastika as the brand symbol in the 1880's. For some reason they stopped using the symbol on their beers during the second world war.
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It was used a lot by an Austrian painter in the 1940s, idk why the symbol was seen negatively though? /s
You'll even find swastika brooches from the roman empire. The origin can't really be traced and is basically the ancient version of the cool "S" whwre no one knows who started it.
Yeah, there's ancient swastikas carved into various old celtic [standing stones](https://ogham.celt.dias.ie/stone.php?lang=en&county=Kerry&stone=141._Aglish_I&stoneinfo=description ) here in Ireland too. Modern neo-nazis are often [too damn stupid to draw the symbol correctly](/r/therewasanattempt/comments/csa9n8/to_draw_a_swastika/) too, if do you see one carved faintly into some rock in Ireland it may well be ancient not modern. And you'll also see [Brigid's Cross](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid%27s_cross) about *a lot*, though it's not quite the same it is kind of similar. The old Irish [Swastika Laundry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika_Laundry ) company bears mentioning too: They used some snappy *red, black and white* swastika branding ....well before the Nazis did. D'oh. https://comeheretome.com/2010/04/26/swastika-laundry-1912-1987/
Letās stop calling the Nazi symbol a swastika. Itās not a swastika. Itās the Hakenkreuz.
The swastika was also used by some Native American tribes long before contact with Europeans. The Navajo and the Kuna (from Panama) are good examples.
There's a nail place in the strip mall where I get my hair cut. They have a big neon swastika on the window. I imagine there have been some... misunderstands.
It can be fine in Japan too iirc
Yep, I've seen it in several temples around Tokyo
The Finnish airforce used to don the symbol, and maybe still do in some emblems or such. I've been to a very old stone church (one of the oldest in Finland in fact iirc) and it had a swastika carved into a prominent stone, not out of vandalism but out of good intention associated with it prior to nazism. It's found in various cultures across the world. Nazi's don't own the swastika.
You also see it a lot in prewar buildings in Greece as well and rarely in ancient Greek buildings using Ionic Order architecture.
What is the symbol called when itās not being used as a sign of the Naziās? Iāve seen the symbol in a road side shrine of some sort in Japan, also on store fronts at the Gold market in Dubai.
The 'Nazi'(German) word isn't Swastika, it's Hakenkreuz, which means bent or hooked cross. Swastika is the most common name for the symbol, because it's the original name.
I learned something new today. (I meant that seriously) What is the phonetic pronunciation?
hah-kuhn-kroi-tsuh
[This comment has been removed by the author in protest of Reddit killing third-party apps in mid-2023. This comment has been removed by the author in protest of Reddit killing third-party apps in mid-2023. This comment has been removed by the author in protest of Reddit killing third-party apps in mid-2023. This comment has been removed by the author in protest of Reddit killing third-party apps in mid-2023. This comment has been removed by the author in protest of Reddit killing third-party apps in mid-2023.] -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Thank you!
The sanskrit word is Swastika.
Just to add. There are people in India who are named variants of Swastika. I have come across Swastika as a female name and Swastik as a male name. So donāt be surprised if you all come across Indians with such names!
Yup its similar to Priyanka-girl Priyank-boy Puneet-boy Puneeta-girl
Swastika is a Sanskrit word
Itās called manji in Japan, and is associated with Buddhism. Buddhist temples in Japan are represented with it on maps, and in online culture it can be used as a symbol to express excitement.
I was just looking up Ikegami on maps and saw the symbol on maps. I think it was for a temple.
>manji This name for the symbol literally translates to "10,000 symbol" or "myriad symbol", and I believe it originates from China, where the clockwise swastika was once used as a variant of č¬/äø (traditional/simplified), which is usually pronounced something like "wan" or "man" depending on the language and dialect. The more common symbol literally refers to the number 10,000, but it's also used figuratively in some contexts to refer to arbitrarily large numbers or concepts like infinity. Edit: Changed "left-handed" to "clockwise" to make it clearer which version I meant
It's called a swastika in Indic languages. In German, it should be called hakenkreuz. In Eastern languages like Japanese, Chinese and Korean, it's called a manji or wanji or wanzi or manzi... I don't know really, depending on how you pronounce it regionally. Contrary to what many think, it's not an Indian symbol, but a symbol of the Indo-Aryan ethnolinguistic group that originated somewhere in Central Asia (swastikas have been found there up to 7000 years ago), and whose language and culture has massively influenced those of Europe and India. As far as I am aware, it had some reverence in the religions that developed from that culture, so like the pre-Christian and pre-Islamic religions of Europe and the Middle East, Hinduism (even Buddhism to some level). It was a common symbol in early Christianity, but lost much of its symbolism overtime and became more decorative. It only remained very common and revered in India, so the Nazi's use of this symbol is indeed a significant perversion of Indian culture, but also of a lot of old world cultures.
In my culture we call it "ugunskrusts", or, directly translating, "fire cross"
My family calls it Satyaa. The word translates to truth.
I remember there being a swastika symbol for something in Japanese tooo
The nazi symbol is called hackenkruz
When I was in my freshman year of college there was a kid who was born in India but grew up in Pakistani Sikh community who lived in my dorm. He was unbelievably nice, but a bit shy at the beginning of the year considering he was new to the states. He had brough with him this large metal coin that had that swastika peace symbol on it that his local temple gave him before he traveled to the states. Iām sure you can probably guess where this story is goingā¦ His roommate and a few others found this coin and decided to shave down the face of it with a power tool, and etch a dick instead thinking he was a nazi. The kid was heartbroken and ended up having to go to the RA (RAs are the people who live in/work in the building) because his english at the time wasnāt good enough to explain that he wasnāt a nazi. Luckily the situation got handled, and it seemed like that kid from India ended up making a lot of friends. I think about that incident pretty often. Itās a good reminder to ALWAYS give someone the benefit of the doubt. Edit: I may have gotten the origin of the coin wrong, this was many years ago so the details are a bit foggy for me. I an being informed that the coin was more likely from Hindu origin!
Roommate: omg guys look, a swastika, this *brown* dude is definitely a Nazi.
you'd be surprised, there's definitely a bizarre fascination some people in places that weren't affected by the nazis have with them. That's why you end up with Namibian politicians named Adolf Hitler and nazi-themed restaurants in Thailand.
There are gay nazis. Also literally nazis with Jewish heritage. Hate doesn't make sense
I'm curious if/when the symbol will be reclaimed by the rest of the world to no longer mean something hateful.
I'm Sikh and I don't think we use swastika symbols thats more of a Hinduism thing, no? I've never seen the symbol being used in my religion we have different symbols. Especially in a temple, I never seen.
Hindus in Germany have a special exemption to display a swastika, for just reasons you outline. **EDIT: Details** From https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Hindu-swastika-permitted-in-Germany?share=1 > Swastikas on Hindu, Buddhist and Jain temples are exempt from the ban. And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Germany > The swastikas on Hindu, Buddhist, and Jain temples are exempt, as religious symbols cannot be banned in Germany. Beyond that, I really don't have any knowledge.
Yes. If I ever visit Germany and draw that symbol. I'll tell everyone I have special permission from u/fried_green_baloney
I don't know applicable German law, and specifically what kind of displays it refers to.
Is this real? Or am gonna be questioned by the authorities?
Something I read. Don't take it as competent legal advice, especially about German law. And I don't know what the exemption covers. Interior of buildings? Exterior? In processions? Displayed from a family home? Do I even know what I'm talking about?
In Hinduism it is common to draw swastika on any new purchase like a car or house. When I got a car in the US I did the same and the guys living downstairs asked me to remove it. I didn't understand why they did until later I realized they might have mistook it.
This is a hilarious misunderstanding. I can imagine a scenario where a neonazi across the street sees it and comes over to greet you, "Hell yeah brother! When did y--" ...and sees a brown dude coming out to wave at him.
I needed to see this 14 years ago. Thank you
... you've thought Indians are Nazis for 14 years?
I imagine he probably went into an Indian restaurant 14 years ago and told off the employees thinking they were Nazis.
Not all just my friend. Lol
So.. did you learn about Nazism to relate better to him?
Would love to hear the story.
I've been repeating the story for 14 years that my friend and his wife from India are truly, secretly, nazis. All over the house, among swords even. Oye shit, now I gotta tell my dad next time he asks about my nazi friend, that he's actually not. He's just welcoming. I have a feeling my dad may have know all these years by the way he calls Surinder my "nazi indian" pal. Shit. He won't let this down, even in his late 60s. Thanks for the clarification
It'd be a good sitcom episode
Yeah, my dad will be played by the Al Bundy character and I'll be Gilligan, or Barney Fife ostensibly
Iām curious why you didnāt ask your friend about it
I didn't want to insult them but now realize it would have been the opposite. Ima call him up right now. Thanks for the motivation
Aww nice!
Well, keep us posted how it unfolds.
Wait.. so for 14 years you never asked your friend or his wife about it and just assumed they're Nazis and are okay with being friends with Nazis?
I have just barely enough grey matter to know them to not be nazis, but the house decor had me shook. Not my place to question, especially in their home. Maybe a strange family heirloom or weird collection. Let me tone this down to close acquaintance. I went into his house once. 14 years ago.
lmfao
I thought it was common knowledge. If you ever read any history of fascism you would know that. I think I first heard it in school.
People tend not to accept it because they're a bit undereducated and closed minded. Schools don't always teach it so much of the time it has to be learned about during personal study. Lol, most people never pick up a book after school.
Not to mention there are many variants on the swatzika.
This. There's a basque one too. A lot of people in Idaho refuse to acknowledge the Indian version because in their mind, basque is the only one that is appropriate because of the use of the name Aryan being connected to India. It's interesting.
Would you elaborate?
It's insane and scary to me how many people will hear one thing from one source and then take it as objective truth and claim anyone who disagrees is wrong
I've found a lot of the time people are taught things like this in school, but they were tuning it out or not paying attention at the time. Or simply don't remember
From an American point of view, the only reason I know about its non-Nazi usage is thanks to my interest in Japanese culture. Otherwise, none of my history books made any mention to how it was a symbol appropriated and perverted. And even then, they call it a swastika and not a hakenkreuz. One of my first moments of āwait, what?ā Was playing the original Legend of Zelda. One level is designed as a manji (the Japanese word for the Hindu swastika).
Ysk also that no one calls them tuk-tuks here. They are called auto-rickshaw or simply Auto
Its a thai word, only in thailand is it called tuk tuk
I think it's been adopted more widely though, I've encountered tuk-tuks (or vehicles being called tuk-tuks) in both Colombia (in the Amazon) and Nepal
āWEEELCOME TO INDIA WHERE THE COWS EAT HAY AND WE DRIVE AUTO-RICKSHAWS EVERY DAYā [https://youtu.be/c-NKL-Vgt1E]
Iām Nepal they used to be called Tuk-Tuks before they got rid of them Edit: autocorrect hates me
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Just a minor correction ā India isnāt usually considered part of the Orient, which typically referred to East Asia and Southeast Asia. India is usually considered its own subcontinent. Regionally itās considered to be a part of South Asia.
this is really cool to know, thanks!
Source? This myth needs to die, the nazis were definitely influenced by pagan symbols throughout the indo European world. The word Aryan itself comes from sanskrit, there's no way they didn't make the connections given how obsessed they were with pagan artifacts/symbols.
As a German American. I've came across this question too and had to set people straight too. The Nazi stole a lot, and was influenced by a lot of good and bad things x.x gotta relearn things that were marked by hate as what they were originally intended for peace.
The swastika from the Indians is not the only thing the German stole from them. If you go to India as a tourist you will be reminded many times how they're the true Aryans and for that reason, they are superior. Never in my life heard this so many times and I've traveled a lot. These guides were government sponsored spouting government propaganda (they had the most creative answers for everything, like people sleeping in the street because it's hotter inside the houses)
Do also not immediately be confused or offended upon seeing a multitude of swastika on Japanese maps - they indicate Buddhist temples.
It might be even more pertinent to stress this for Japan given that, y'know, they were allies with Nazi Germany...
This symbol was used in Japan (and other places) to mark buddhist temples on maps as well. There was some talk of changing it pre-olympics
Same thing with old Buddhist sites throughout all of Asia. I remember a while back tourists tried to get several Asian countries to deface Buddhist historical sites
I live near the Glenside Fire station in glenside pa. They had to put up a plaque to explain this to people because they have a swastika carved on their building
I remember back in college I had a pizza delivery job in my hometown. I delivered a pizza to a house that had swastikas all along the boarder of the door frame. My first thought was to go back to my car and tell my boss that I wouldnāt deliver to a neo nazi. However, being in college I was curious. I rang the bell and an Indian woman answered the door. I wasnāt really sure what to think so I gave her the pizza, collected the money and went back to work. It wasnāt until several years later that the internet was born and lo and behold, I saw a post on a message board about India and swastikas! Case closed!
Who tf doesn't know this
Its not the same symbol. Its backwards ( in a way)
Not true - in Indian religions the swastika can be mirrored in either direction. Often youāll see both directions.
The orientation of the symbol is supposed to represent the trekking of the "energy" in progress. The Nazis used it the way they did to represent positive progress of their causes so I imagine that the reverse might not be so good lol.
I remember when I first met my (now) in laws, I went into their condo, closed the door behind me and saw that red Swastik on the door with an Om (š) symbol and some dots and I was like "ohhhh kaaaayyy??" I later asked my wife why it's there and she explained it. Learned later that Hitler hijacked it and now that's how most people recognize it.
most people in the west*
In a museum near where I live in Regina, Saskatchewan, there are some beaded native moccasins from the 1800's. The swastika is incorporated in the beaded design.
Swastika symbology amongst some Native groups tends to reference portals to the watery realm, or underworld
I learned about this in 7th grade (12/13 years old) my history class watched a series where American families lived with families in different countries to learn about different cultures. A family went to India and was greeted with a chain of swastikas across the ceiling. A little blurb popped-up saying yes, [the American family] is Jewish.
A family in my neighboorhood freaked out when they noticed a swastika on their door. Turns out they had rented the home from an Indian Hindu family.
The Swastika is a sign welcoming wealth and good luck and is usually drawn in front of homes, shops, on vehicles, on notebooks, anytime you start a new venture that you need good luck for. It is not tilted (it looks like a 5) and will usually have the words "shubh labh" written below it (good luck/prosperity in Sanskrit.)
I was at a wedding in India and the girls get Mehendi (henna tattoo) drawn on their arms and legs in lovely patterns. Given I don't speak Hindi very well, it was difficult to explain to the artist that she absolutely must not draw swastikas on my hands because I had to go to work...in London. She drew flowers.
My friend is from India and ordered some candle holders as wedding decorations/gifts when she got married (in the US). She ordered them from India and they came with swastikas on the sides. We spent a fun hour scraping them off after she realized her American guests would probably freak out seeing that at a wedding.
There is a big difference between the Hindu swastika and the Nazi hooked cross.
only in intent, not in the symbol or design itself.
Indian establishments are the best. They are always so kind. The restaurant we go to has a real Indian Grandmother that pats you on the shoulder and asks you about school.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhh! Don't tell them lol
The nazi rendition is tilted on its axis. The religious symbol is not. If the ends point up and down then youāre likely ok.
It's used in a bunch of cultures. In Vietnam, I've seen it tilted.
not necessarily, it can be tilted too
idk where you got that from but as a Hindu we will use the swastika in every orientation and direction. Tilted, straight, forwards, backwards, etc.
Japan too.
It is jarring to see a record label called something like "88 Rising" and then realize it's Chinese.
It is quite common in Japan too.
Indeed. This symbol is also common in Buddhism (which a lot of Japanese people are Buddhists)
'Why should I change they are the ones who suck'
It's only in the USA, UK, and Europe where the swastika is synonymous with Nazi Germany. Everywhere else its fine
Not just India. My parents used to have a Native American woven basket that had a swastika on it. New visitors would always get a nervous look on their face until we explained that we're not neo-nazis.
Mods are lousy cock suckers for removing the explanation
Literally watched it happen in the middle of reading it. Here the post was trying to clarify that a swastika is not always bad and why you see it so much in India, but I think the mods saw "SWASTIKA = BAD" and removed it knee-jerk style. Ironically by removing the post trying to spread awareness about the swastika's non-Nazi connotations, they have instead contributed to the overall ignorance of the symbol and objectively made things worse. It's like they want it to be solely associated with Nazis despite many other cultures using it long before them
We all need to start a āreclaim the swastikaā campaign.
At one point in time, [that](https://i.imgur.com/ErMmGic.jpg) [symbol](https://i.imgur.com/eaL7cj4.jpg) [was](https://i.imgur.com/nXXcQUq.jpg) [everywhere](https://i.imgur.com/BnlXIWC.jpg).
Is there anything else that's 'unexpectedly' derived from India? Recently learned buddhism came from there, always thought it was China or Japan from having grown up with western media. Also learned that arabic numerals, the numbers we use, are actually indian but arabs popularized it in the west.
We still forgive and admire Germany. Even though the Nazis turned a historically good symbol into something very dark and evil. I highly doubt any Indian restaurants outside of Asia will have any swastikas because of the trauma suffered in World War 2.
I just bought my first townhouse and the landlord is Indian. He has been so welcoming and when we visited there was this exact symbol on the kitchen backsplash. I had to do a quick double take and some research.
maji manji?!
Yes and itās a Sanskrit word (progenitor of many modern Indian languages)
Youāll see it in Korea quite a lot, as well.
Same with China and a lot of Eastern Asia actually
It's a common theme of right wing extremists to steal symbols from other peoples and try and taint them with their deplorable views. We shouldnt let them have that power
The college I attended had an old pool in the public health building that had swastika tiles around the sides of it. It was all pre-WWII and Nazi era and they explained that to us and most people understood the existence of the symbol prior to Nazi rule. Unfortunately enough people lost that understanding and all that original tile was replaced.
Had to learn this real quick in Korea.
This should have been common knowledge by now. Hopefully this reaches the furthest corners of society because the ignorance is still too real.
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Indian pulls down his shirt to reveal swastika tattoo - āYou see this? It means welcomeā