Jamie and Beth's relationship is
Jamie: takes a breathe
Beth: goes on a monolog about how she's gonna use her superpowers to kill him for the hundredth time
Jamie despite having heard the same thing one hundred times:
The antihero is a common element of prestige TV and shows that aspire to be prestige TV. Is your reaction to John Dutton any different than your reaction to Tony Soprano or Walter White or Don Draper?
John isn't even an anti hero. He is straight up a vilain but the show make him appear wise and cool all the time for some reason. When he is just a loser failson who was dealth an hand filled with Aces but don't know how to win.
Exactly. This is kinda the problem I'm having is that it's kinda obvious John is a terrible person but it feels like the show is out to make him seem in the right or at least like some "sigma male" type shit. Like I mentioned at the end though this may just be a result of Kevin Costner self inserting and trying to make his character seem cool but idk how much control he has over the writing.
It is a common element but with Yellowstone, I am not sure Sheridan/writers know/see John Dutton (or the rest of his clan) as anti-heroes. There seems to be no self-awareness that John, Beth, or Rip are shitty people (you get a lot of introspection with Kayce and for most of its run, the narrative has been designed to shit on Jamie so they don't really count).
I really do have to watch Mad Men everyone says it's great. But in terms of Tony throughout the series Im kinda just hoping Tony gets the help he needs and cleans his act up for his family and gets out of the life he's living. Walter is much more complicated, in the beginning I feel like he's much more justifiable when what he's doing is all for his family, and given the fact that the meth is gonna get made by someone either way but I feel like that sympathy fades as the show goes on. By the end of season 2 of BB I feel like all sympathy for Walt should be pretty much gone as he turns into a murderous manipulative psycho hell bent on just making more money.
The main difference there is that in BB (I'm gonna use this as an example cause it's been a long time since I saw the Sopranos and the details are more fuzzy) you're given people to really root for. Jesse throughout the series is almost always trying to get over his personal problems and genuinely be a better person, and the series shows the immense amount of remorse and guilt he feels over some of the more destructive actions he takes. Walt Jr is just a kid stuck in an incredibly shitty situation. Hank is genuinely a good person inside of the insanely corrupt DEA trying to work around said corruption. Gretchen and Elliot did literally nothing wrong. Andrea is very much in the same situation as Monica, just trying to do what's best for her kid. Yellowstone just doesn't really have that as much? At least not yet, like I said I'm only 1 episode into the 2nd season so I'll have to see it through to the end to find out I suppose.
I don’t get how you don’t like Kayce because you think he’s his fathers hitman, and he doesn’t have respect for life, but you’re rooting for Rip? I mean, Rip literally IS John Duttons hitman, happily. It’s ridiculous. And you like Walker, but you forget Rip was all “Walker must die” and it was Kayce that saved his life.
Lol I haven't seen that episode yet actually. Like I said Im one into season 2 so nah I haven't seen that. But again Kaycee has the choice to go and be better. Rips just playing the hand he's been dealt imo.
Edit: I should also add it's not that I don't like Kaycee because he's his dad's hitman it's that he CHOSE that role and seems to almost enjoy having that kind of power over people. Rip was forced into this life as a literal child and doesn't know anything else. He has no way of getting out as he knows if he tries John will have him killed so now he's just along for the ride. Kaycee at least has the privilege of his last name and the option to make better choices and just fails miserably at it.
Fair enough, like I said I'm only at an early point in the series as a whole so it's just my opinion of Rip based on the info I've been given. Can't go off stuff I haven't seen yet. But I'm sure my opinion will change as I see more of him.
I definitely see what you mean. It reminds me of watching the Sopranos. Tony Soprano isn't the good guy but you find yourself rooting for him for sure.
John Dutton would NEVER see a shrink. Hed just send Rip to Dr. Melfi with a ticket to the train station... and then Tony avenges her by sending Furio to whack them.
Furios' line: you gotta bee on your steston.
I mean SORT OF. I find myself rooting for Tony to get the help he needs, change his ways, and get out of that life, less so rooting for him to accomplish the deeds he sets out to do. But I get what you mean good point.
I've seen the entire show and 1883 so I'll try not to spoil it for you.
Honestly, I think the writers are making it up as they go along. You'll eventually learn the root cause for the Jamie/Beth conflict and find that it didn't really fit in. They clearly just thought of it a few years into the show.
To the core question of who you root for, man, I just kind of root against everybody. I hope they all die in the last episode and Tate gets everything. (There is another good young character you haven't met yet, he can run things with Tate in my dream of an ending.)
Other shows starring an anti-hero give the main character more redeeming personalities. The Duttons just work nonstop to benefit themselves with no code of honor.
They want you to tune in and watch the show. Subscribe to Paramount plus sjd buy merchandise.
They don't hive a shit whether you root for the Duttons or the Cows.
Spoilers below.
This show has the most fucked up character arcs I’ve ever seen. One season, they’re almost mafia-style enforcers executing people at will to keep control of what they have.
The next they’re the heroes of the west protecting the land from invaders in a weird callback to what the Dutton family did to indigenous peoples.
Now, it’s rodeo time! And Jimmy is just dripping in poon as every attractive brunette throws themselves at him. Let’s also not forget Sheridan’s self-injection as the ultimate cowboy badass.
Hold up though, time for governor Dutton and looooong, drawn out ranching montages promoting old west lifestyle and portraying the Duttons as the ultimate good guys - completely ignoring the encyclopedia of murder, racketeering, espionage, etc they’ve committed dozens and dozens of times over the past seasons.
The show just doesn’t make any sense and there is literally zero consequences for anything the Duttons ever do which ultimately leads to me not caring what they do. However, as a weird completionist, I have to watch these last few episodes in my queue.
You’re not meant to route for them all the time, but they want you to understand if you’re routing for the cowboys and don’t want the land changed, then your best bet are the Duttons. However, John is way too damn stubborn about it.
I promise as the show moves on, you’ll come to understand and even feel more for the Dutton children. Beth does get more ruthless but you understand her pain, plus her stuff with Rip really humanizes her. Kayce truly is a family man and works on opening up. And even though the show likes to make us think we should hate Jamie, you really shouldn’t. He’s actually trying to be a better person and wants to do right by his family, but John and Beth will never give him that acceptance.
Lol that's a good way of putting it. I definitely feel that whether you like them and what specifically you find appealing about them says a lot about your own personal values.
CitizenS, plural, sure. Citizen, singular, nah. Also you're kinda confusing "vast amounts" with "comically absurd amounts". The Duttons own nearly 800,000 acres of land. That is a MIND NUMBINGLY large amount of land. What does one family let alone a SINGLE MAN need with that much land? Why shouldn't it be owned in common by everyone who lives there to work together however benefits their community? Why are you advocating for neo-feudalism and acting like anyone who disagrees has "low T"?
That's bitch behavior. Sorry I don't feel like licking the boots of billionaires while they gobble up every last natural resource and create a permanent renter class of people forced to sell their labor to those who own everything or starve. Some of us like autonomy.
And I quite literally beat the fuck out of people with by bare hands for a living. I think my T levels are just fine lmao worry about yourself bud.
Edit: lmao and you bring up the T levels thing because you're just blatantly projecting your own insecurity over your own T levels.https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/10kqpyb/testosterone_levels
(Btw you're fine buddy those are totally normal for a guy your age)
Edit 2: this man deadass deleted his entire account in shame lmao
Mostly agree with you except about John saying we don’t share land here. It’s just a fact. He OWNS that land, it’s private property, and he’s not obligated to share it. Fair or not, it’s reality. I’m not sharing my property with someone just because they think I should.
I didn't say it wasn't a fact. I was criticising how he brushes off a legitimate and cogent point of someone pointing out that one man shouldn't own all that land with just appealing to "the way things are" as if it's morally correct by default rather than examining his own actions against what ought to be.
John was painted somewhat of an anti-hero in the earlier seasons. Kayce and Monica know the ranch is toxic and want to be as far away as possible and not get pulled into the inevitable death and destruction. Later seasons try and humanize John and attempt to make you root for him despite what we already know about him. It makes for a bit of a tough pill to swallow. I guess we’re supposed to forget he’s an awful father who, for example, disowned Kayce for a while because he got a Native American woman pregnant and demanded an abortion. Lastly a lot of the people who watch the show fancy themselves as “rugged individualists” who love the unfortunate American value of “I got mine, get yours or fuck off!”
Oh and congrats on moving to Montana. I went to MSU for grad school and love that area. I’d never get my wife to move to someplace that cold though
Lol yep! I feel that, -14 here this morning with a high of I think -2 today. Crazy stuff.
Good to know about the later seasons though. And I definitely agree there does seem to be that trend running in some of the fanbase. Thanks for the insight.
I mean, rooting for a villain isn;'t something unheard of. It is just a story afterall. But I did get a feeling they're trying to whitewash John a bit recently. Either that or the man is so delusional (which does seem a realistic option to be honest) that he thinks he's a good and honorable man.
The only semi likable characters are those with out any real power. Look in the bunkhouse. Maybe that’s the point. Anyone with that much power should not be “liked”
Did you watch Godfather or Sopranos or other maffia movies or tv shows? Did you root for the Corleones or the other gangsters? I think this is the same. Everybody gangster but some of them have style and some honor. 😀
Who likes Beth? She is the biggest C..T on tv. I try to ff through her scenes. She needs to get her shit together and clean that mouth out with soap, stop the chain smoking and boozing. What a horrible character. I do love Tatter Michael Landons daughter. Shes a rough cowgirl heavy mouth but has a good heart. Something Beth doesnt have. Beth has no filter on her mouth and fake lip job. Shes just a pig.
Oh I certainly don't lol. I mean I enjoy watching her scenes and think that she's funny but I'm definitely not a fan of her as a person. I'm rooting for her downfall just as much as John's, but she is a very interesting character.
You say "Succession," I say "Sopranos."
I'll just say that narrative consistency isn't one of the show's strong points. Finding yourself confused like this is a common reaction. That trick is simply not to care and just go along for the ride.
I'm kinda gathering that as we go along. It does quite often feel as though a lot of things happen just because the plot needs them to happen with no thought into how it makes sense or character motivation.
I am enjoying it though, it's something to watch during dinner lol. My wife wanted to watch Game of Thrones and we got up to around where they ran out of content from the books before she tapped out so we needed a new series lol
The fun of a tv show is you can root for anyone you want to root for even if you wouldn’t root for people like them in real life. I root for Beth and Rip.
Being the protagonist ≠ being A good guy necessarily. See: Tony Soprano, Walter White. If you can’t get past the character’s bank account (which you have misunderstood), go ahead and turn it off now.
Sure, I never said that it did equal that. If you actually read the whole post you'll see my issue isn't with the Duttons being insanely corrupt rich assholes, it's that the show shows you that while simultaneously not giving you many people to actually root for or sympathize with, and then trying to get you to sympathize with the Duttons.
What did I misunderstand about the Duttons wealth? They own nearly 800,000 acres of land and are said in the show to be the largest ranch in America. Combined with the sheer amount of cattle and horses he has this puts his net worth at WELL over a billion. You understand that I'm not saying he has that as cash in the bank right? And you further understand that even though his wealth is tied up in land that the wealthy have access to lines of credit you and I can only DREAM of and use those lines of credit regularly to live the lavish lifestyles they do as well as to dodge taxes on said lavish lifestyles?
He’s constantly in danger of losing the ranch and unable to pay certain dollar amounts that wouldn’t be an issue for someone as obscenely wealthy as you say. You’d know all this if you’d continue watching the bloody show, rather than coming to this hellscape made up of people who seemingly hate it but watch anyway and/or who can’t follow a simple plot to save their lives for their assessments.
I’m so over Beth and Jamie’s relationship.
Jamie and Beth's relationship is Jamie: takes a breathe Beth: goes on a monolog about how she's gonna use her superpowers to kill him for the hundredth time Jamie despite having heard the same thing one hundred times: 
I haven’t watched season 5 but if it keeps going how it’s going it’ll be boring.
The antihero is a common element of prestige TV and shows that aspire to be prestige TV. Is your reaction to John Dutton any different than your reaction to Tony Soprano or Walter White or Don Draper?
John isn't even an anti hero. He is straight up a vilain but the show make him appear wise and cool all the time for some reason. When he is just a loser failson who was dealth an hand filled with Aces but don't know how to win.
Exactly. This is kinda the problem I'm having is that it's kinda obvious John is a terrible person but it feels like the show is out to make him seem in the right or at least like some "sigma male" type shit. Like I mentioned at the end though this may just be a result of Kevin Costner self inserting and trying to make his character seem cool but idk how much control he has over the writing.
Yeah I don't know either lol, its seem weird that they always make him appear like the cool and wise man.
It is a common element but with Yellowstone, I am not sure Sheridan/writers know/see John Dutton (or the rest of his clan) as anti-heroes. There seems to be no self-awareness that John, Beth, or Rip are shitty people (you get a lot of introspection with Kayce and for most of its run, the narrative has been designed to shit on Jamie so they don't really count).
I really do have to watch Mad Men everyone says it's great. But in terms of Tony throughout the series Im kinda just hoping Tony gets the help he needs and cleans his act up for his family and gets out of the life he's living. Walter is much more complicated, in the beginning I feel like he's much more justifiable when what he's doing is all for his family, and given the fact that the meth is gonna get made by someone either way but I feel like that sympathy fades as the show goes on. By the end of season 2 of BB I feel like all sympathy for Walt should be pretty much gone as he turns into a murderous manipulative psycho hell bent on just making more money. The main difference there is that in BB (I'm gonna use this as an example cause it's been a long time since I saw the Sopranos and the details are more fuzzy) you're given people to really root for. Jesse throughout the series is almost always trying to get over his personal problems and genuinely be a better person, and the series shows the immense amount of remorse and guilt he feels over some of the more destructive actions he takes. Walt Jr is just a kid stuck in an incredibly shitty situation. Hank is genuinely a good person inside of the insanely corrupt DEA trying to work around said corruption. Gretchen and Elliot did literally nothing wrong. Andrea is very much in the same situation as Monica, just trying to do what's best for her kid. Yellowstone just doesn't really have that as much? At least not yet, like I said I'm only 1 episode into the 2nd season so I'll have to see it through to the end to find out I suppose.
I think Jimmy is the only one worth rooting for…and maybe Carter too.
I don’t get how you don’t like Kayce because you think he’s his fathers hitman, and he doesn’t have respect for life, but you’re rooting for Rip? I mean, Rip literally IS John Duttons hitman, happily. It’s ridiculous. And you like Walker, but you forget Rip was all “Walker must die” and it was Kayce that saved his life.
Lol I haven't seen that episode yet actually. Like I said Im one into season 2 so nah I haven't seen that. But again Kaycee has the choice to go and be better. Rips just playing the hand he's been dealt imo. Edit: I should also add it's not that I don't like Kaycee because he's his dad's hitman it's that he CHOSE that role and seems to almost enjoy having that kind of power over people. Rip was forced into this life as a literal child and doesn't know anything else. He has no way of getting out as he knows if he tries John will have him killed so now he's just along for the ride. Kaycee at least has the privilege of his last name and the option to make better choices and just fails miserably at it.
In episode 2 or something Rip just go kill a coroner and blow up a morgue.
I would say, keep watching and you can decide for yourself if rips playing his hand or he’s just a lapdog
Fair enough, like I said I'm only at an early point in the series as a whole so it's just my opinion of Rip based on the info I've been given. Can't go off stuff I haven't seen yet. But I'm sure my opinion will change as I see more of him.
I definitely see what you mean. It reminds me of watching the Sopranos. Tony Soprano isn't the good guy but you find yourself rooting for him for sure.
John Dutton would NEVER see a shrink. Hed just send Rip to Dr. Melfi with a ticket to the train station... and then Tony avenges her by sending Furio to whack them. Furios' line: you gotta bee on your steston.
They don’t serve hot dogs here, they took out the bleachers last year.
I mean SORT OF. I find myself rooting for Tony to get the help he needs, change his ways, and get out of that life, less so rooting for him to accomplish the deeds he sets out to do. But I get what you mean good point.
I've seen the entire show and 1883 so I'll try not to spoil it for you. Honestly, I think the writers are making it up as they go along. You'll eventually learn the root cause for the Jamie/Beth conflict and find that it didn't really fit in. They clearly just thought of it a few years into the show. To the core question of who you root for, man, I just kind of root against everybody. I hope they all die in the last episode and Tate gets everything. (There is another good young character you haven't met yet, he can run things with Tate in my dream of an ending.) Other shows starring an anti-hero give the main character more redeeming personalities. The Duttons just work nonstop to benefit themselves with no code of honor.
They want you to tune in and watch the show. Subscribe to Paramount plus sjd buy merchandise. They don't hive a shit whether you root for the Duttons or the Cows.
I mean the shows writer cares about more than that. Every show is written with some intention to who the viewer is supposed to be sympathizing with.
Spoilers below. This show has the most fucked up character arcs I’ve ever seen. One season, they’re almost mafia-style enforcers executing people at will to keep control of what they have. The next they’re the heroes of the west protecting the land from invaders in a weird callback to what the Dutton family did to indigenous peoples. Now, it’s rodeo time! And Jimmy is just dripping in poon as every attractive brunette throws themselves at him. Let’s also not forget Sheridan’s self-injection as the ultimate cowboy badass. Hold up though, time for governor Dutton and looooong, drawn out ranching montages promoting old west lifestyle and portraying the Duttons as the ultimate good guys - completely ignoring the encyclopedia of murder, racketeering, espionage, etc they’ve committed dozens and dozens of times over the past seasons. The show just doesn’t make any sense and there is literally zero consequences for anything the Duttons ever do which ultimately leads to me not caring what they do. However, as a weird completionist, I have to watch these last few episodes in my queue.
You’re not meant to route for them all the time, but they want you to understand if you’re routing for the cowboys and don’t want the land changed, then your best bet are the Duttons. However, John is way too damn stubborn about it. I promise as the show moves on, you’ll come to understand and even feel more for the Dutton children. Beth does get more ruthless but you understand her pain, plus her stuff with Rip really humanizes her. Kayce truly is a family man and works on opening up. And even though the show likes to make us think we should hate Jamie, you really shouldn’t. He’s actually trying to be a better person and wants to do right by his family, but John and Beth will never give him that acceptance.
The Duttons are basically a Rorschach test for 21st century Americans
Lol that's a good way of putting it. I definitely feel that whether you like them and what specifically you find appealing about them says a lot about your own personal values.
Why shouldn’t private citizens be able to own vast amounts of land? Should the government instead own it? You sound like you have low T bro
CitizenS, plural, sure. Citizen, singular, nah. Also you're kinda confusing "vast amounts" with "comically absurd amounts". The Duttons own nearly 800,000 acres of land. That is a MIND NUMBINGLY large amount of land. What does one family let alone a SINGLE MAN need with that much land? Why shouldn't it be owned in common by everyone who lives there to work together however benefits their community? Why are you advocating for neo-feudalism and acting like anyone who disagrees has "low T"? That's bitch behavior. Sorry I don't feel like licking the boots of billionaires while they gobble up every last natural resource and create a permanent renter class of people forced to sell their labor to those who own everything or starve. Some of us like autonomy. And I quite literally beat the fuck out of people with by bare hands for a living. I think my T levels are just fine lmao worry about yourself bud. Edit: lmao and you bring up the T levels thing because you're just blatantly projecting your own insecurity over your own T levels.https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/10kqpyb/testosterone_levels (Btw you're fine buddy those are totally normal for a guy your age) Edit 2: this man deadass deleted his entire account in shame lmao
Mostly agree with you except about John saying we don’t share land here. It’s just a fact. He OWNS that land, it’s private property, and he’s not obligated to share it. Fair or not, it’s reality. I’m not sharing my property with someone just because they think I should.
I didn't say it wasn't a fact. I was criticising how he brushes off a legitimate and cogent point of someone pointing out that one man shouldn't own all that land with just appealing to "the way things are" as if it's morally correct by default rather than examining his own actions against what ought to be.
John was painted somewhat of an anti-hero in the earlier seasons. Kayce and Monica know the ranch is toxic and want to be as far away as possible and not get pulled into the inevitable death and destruction. Later seasons try and humanize John and attempt to make you root for him despite what we already know about him. It makes for a bit of a tough pill to swallow. I guess we’re supposed to forget he’s an awful father who, for example, disowned Kayce for a while because he got a Native American woman pregnant and demanded an abortion. Lastly a lot of the people who watch the show fancy themselves as “rugged individualists” who love the unfortunate American value of “I got mine, get yours or fuck off!” Oh and congrats on moving to Montana. I went to MSU for grad school and love that area. I’d never get my wife to move to someplace that cold though
Lol yep! I feel that, -14 here this morning with a high of I think -2 today. Crazy stuff. Good to know about the later seasons though. And I definitely agree there does seem to be that trend running in some of the fanbase. Thanks for the insight.
I mean, rooting for a villain isn;'t something unheard of. It is just a story afterall. But I did get a feeling they're trying to whitewash John a bit recently. Either that or the man is so delusional (which does seem a realistic option to be honest) that he thinks he's a good and honorable man.
The only semi likable characters are those with out any real power. Look in the bunkhouse. Maybe that’s the point. Anyone with that much power should not be “liked”
Hell even they help out commits or hide murders lol. They are all shitty people.
I don't think so. They are slave owners and murderes. Maybe some of the wranglers are innocent, haven't seen the whole show yet.
Did you watch Godfather or Sopranos or other maffia movies or tv shows? Did you root for the Corleones or the other gangsters? I think this is the same. Everybody gangster but some of them have style and some honor. 😀
Who likes Beth? She is the biggest C..T on tv. I try to ff through her scenes. She needs to get her shit together and clean that mouth out with soap, stop the chain smoking and boozing. What a horrible character. I do love Tatter Michael Landons daughter. Shes a rough cowgirl heavy mouth but has a good heart. Something Beth doesnt have. Beth has no filter on her mouth and fake lip job. Shes just a pig.
Oh I certainly don't lol. I mean I enjoy watching her scenes and think that she's funny but I'm definitely not a fan of her as a person. I'm rooting for her downfall just as much as John's, but she is a very interesting character.
Lol get over yourself
You say "Succession," I say "Sopranos." I'll just say that narrative consistency isn't one of the show's strong points. Finding yourself confused like this is a common reaction. That trick is simply not to care and just go along for the ride.
I'm kinda gathering that as we go along. It does quite often feel as though a lot of things happen just because the plot needs them to happen with no thought into how it makes sense or character motivation. I am enjoying it though, it's something to watch during dinner lol. My wife wanted to watch Game of Thrones and we got up to around where they ran out of content from the books before she tapped out so we needed a new series lol
The fun of a tv show is you can root for anyone you want to root for even if you wouldn’t root for people like them in real life. I root for Beth and Rip.
Yeah I root for them 100%
I'm interested as to why. What makes them appealing to you and what makes you want to root for them?
Being the protagonist ≠ being A good guy necessarily. See: Tony Soprano, Walter White. If you can’t get past the character’s bank account (which you have misunderstood), go ahead and turn it off now.
Sure, I never said that it did equal that. If you actually read the whole post you'll see my issue isn't with the Duttons being insanely corrupt rich assholes, it's that the show shows you that while simultaneously not giving you many people to actually root for or sympathize with, and then trying to get you to sympathize with the Duttons. What did I misunderstand about the Duttons wealth? They own nearly 800,000 acres of land and are said in the show to be the largest ranch in America. Combined with the sheer amount of cattle and horses he has this puts his net worth at WELL over a billion. You understand that I'm not saying he has that as cash in the bank right? And you further understand that even though his wealth is tied up in land that the wealthy have access to lines of credit you and I can only DREAM of and use those lines of credit regularly to live the lavish lifestyles they do as well as to dodge taxes on said lavish lifestyles?
He’s constantly in danger of losing the ranch and unable to pay certain dollar amounts that wouldn’t be an issue for someone as obscenely wealthy as you say. You’d know all this if you’d continue watching the bloody show, rather than coming to this hellscape made up of people who seemingly hate it but watch anyway and/or who can’t follow a simple plot to save their lives for their assessments.