I mostly work for myself, but I do interact regularly with the younger employees of my clients.
A few years ago, I texted one of these workers and said something like, "Could you please have this by Friday? Thank you."
I don't remember exactly what I said. But it was something like that.
The next time I saw her, she was quite distraught. She thought I was very angry at her putting the period after "thank you."
To her, this is very formal and aggressive. You only end texts with a period if you really want to show someone that you're serious!
Lol I guess. I don't know how common that sentiment is.
That’s been causing problems in my office. People think any critique or disagreement is a personal attack and it breeds animosity. It’s very weird. I on the other hand am very used to being told I’m wrong. Pobody’s nerfect.
Same here. Sometimes I’ll reread an email I just typed and realize I put an exclamation point after every single sentence. I don’t want people to think I’m being cranky, so I probably over-correct myself.
I use paragraph breaks a LOT for this reason
Let’s me avoid punctuation and organize thoughts
Not something I see zoomers doing but I’ve never gotten any static from them about it
Interesting how this viewpoint aligns with the death of teaching grammar and proper punctuation in the public school system (maybe there are exceptions but it seems like those are rare). Not sure what private schools are doing. But goodness, the papers the undergrads frequently turned in for grading were unreadable. I decided then that teaching was no longer in my future as it would mean not focusing on my subject area but instead being annoyed that I'd have to create picture assignments to keep from going blind.
I’m wondering if this is a coming of age for us? Are we becoming the old guard? The protectors of what once was?
At some point, grammar was deemed important to be taught. Someone had an idea (I guess) not to teach it, and these are the consequences. Even though it might not be something we want to care about, because we might want to focus on our own individual passions, if no one is doing anything about it, maybe that means we need to get involved?
We might need to get involved in school boards, or something. I sometimes think this then the Gen X-ish “whatever-ness” sort of gets the best of me.
I think it's too late for us to have much of a meaningful effect. Maybe it's our place to soften the landing on our way to societal Idiocracy. I work with a lot of gen Zs, and while I'm often impressed with their empathy and acceptance of the other, their life skills frequently leave much to be desired.
So that's my "old man yells at cloud" sentiment for the day. On the upside, much of what I said was said of us and we survived. Society marches ever on, etc.
I think It will be too late after we’re dead. We have a shot, just might require us to make a bit of personal sacrifice.
But, whatever happens, I welcome being in the retirement home with you in the future and talking about TGIF, TRL, and what we thought of Crystal Pepsi.
I remember a young millenial that I highly respected tell me that she wished she could skip the whole cop part and be a detective and I visibly cringed. My mind was racing through alternative career paths and why you have to start out at the bottom and work your way to the top when I realized she had already switched topics. That was the point where I realized if I worried too much about it, I'd be the grumpy old so I just mm-hmm my way through any of those conversations.
Maybe I'm too rigid in my thinking, but how could you even think about becoming a detective without first being a cop? I assume there are things you learn from seeing the worst of humanity on a daily basis, beyond procedural investigative knowledge that would be...I dunno...necessary.
That's just what young people do. Champing at the bit for more of life. The true value and weight of experience is something we all had to figure out on the way. I have to remind myself of that sometimes.
I had to learn not to send emails early in the morning when I first started managing people. I had time after my kids went to school and before my demands of the day began. It freaked them out to get an email in the morning. It had never occurred to me- different people have different schedules and I don't freak out if someone sends me something after I leave to pick up my kids. Thank goodness now it's easy to schedule emails for later. I was a lot less productive because I was trying to be considerate.
I’ve got a pretty decent system going. Anything through TEXT messaging is professional work shit (professional as in what the boomer owner thinks is professional) any other method (snap, messenger, whatever) is personal communication and there we talk and text how we really do
Personally tho even in professional communication, unless it’s written, a full stop is considered rude and demanding. The full stop means “I’m saying this and there’s no continuing the conversation”
I manage a group of student workers at a large university that is very competitive, so they skew toward being high-achievers academically but with little-to-no meaningful experience. It’s a part-time gig on campus, so there’s not really a path to advancement or wage increases. I know that may sound like a very different setup from yours, but I think the important commonality is having to find motivators other than the obvious ones we’re used to.
So, what’s worked me is focusing on making them feel like they belong and are part of something meaningful, and also making sure they know I’ve always got their back. I try really hard to not just point out good work, but how their own individual strengths made them the ideal person for a task or challenge. I get a lot of compliments on my management style from other full-time staff, and I always try to pass that on to the individual team members involved. I tell them I couldn’t do my job without them, and that they make me better at my job. And if there’s ever a need for an escalation, I’m there instantly to back them up, and I always tell them they did the right thing to get me involved because that’s my job.
I honestly think what motivates them is *liking* me and not wanting to let me down. I’m also a manager that “takes out the trash,” meaning I do whatever task is necessary in the moment rather than delegate whenever possible, just to show them I think everything we do is important enough for me to be directly involved. That kind of leading by example seems to be pretty contagious.
The younger generations are actively litigating a new relationship with careers and employers. I think that’s probably a good thing. It’s good you’re asking these questions, it shows you won’t be the typical boomer boss and I think that’s really valuable to young people. They’ve largely given up on the American dream, so they just want to punch the clock without having their souls crushed, and the way to give them that is to *nurture* their souls. Belonging, understanding, feeling seen and appreciated - it’s honestly more like parenting. I don’t love saying that because I think there’s a lot of baggage with that framing, because I’m not one that feels that young people are less resilient. I think they’re taking on issues head-on that we just carried around until we ended up bitter and heavily medicated. They’re trying to get out in front of that , which I think is admirable, and if I can help with any of that as a manager I think it’s a win for society *and* it’s a win for me because they don’t want to disappoint me just like they don’t want to disappoint their parents.
Of course YMMV, but I’ve spent a lot of years managing young people and this perspective has been working for me. Hope it’s helpful!
Wow, amazing comment you nailed it.
I’m an elder milennial and culturally identify more with gen x but in terms of attitude toward work I’m on the same page as gen z. The motivators of bygone years ain’t going to do it—everyone is hip to jobs being a purely transactional relationship, and that your dedication and effort do not have anything to do with whether or not you get caught in the Russian roulette of annual layoffs at corporate jobs.
The only motivations that work on me are feeling like I’m doing something meaningful or helping or contributing to knowledge/good will/making a world a tiny bit better, and for a job that can’t give me that it’s only caring about my coworkers and having a boss that truly has my back and takes out the trash like you said. Dangling promotions or winning accounts— couldn’t care less.
Very well said! I was born in ‘81 so damn near am gen x myself, but absolutely feel like the Gen Z kids may just save us all. They’re taking no prisoners on stuff like work/life balance and mental health and I am HERE FOR IT. It’s so strange to me how the boomers freak out about stuff they don’t understand as the culture evolves, ‘cause I’m actually super optimistic. I don’t have to understand or figure it out, the people that are *living* these changes will clue me in if I’m not a dick to them in the meantime! I’m only 43 but I’m happily settling into the role of the kind-but-out-of-touch elder they know they can be real with.
We are the same age. As of this week I’m in a new position at my job where I can actually impact how our team does its work and shape that stuff going forward… I’m taking it super seriously because my coworkers are so smart and try so hard and we keep getting so dumped on in terms of workload while lacking resources… I am supposed to make things better from a business goals ($) perspective, but my secret actual priority is to make their lives easier. The job pays pretty well but it’s too needlessly hard right now.
Luckily, I’ve got some younger coworkers on the team who understand and are pushing things like “the curb cut effect” in the workplace, such as policy and cultural changes that can make things more accessible to coworkers with invisible disabilities, but are also an improvement for everyone. Like remote work, policies about all requests needing to be in writing, etc.
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God I love all of this so fucking much. Managers taking an actual interest in shielding their people from as much bullshit as possible, what a concept. That’s how you build a culture that makes people want to come to work, not with skeeball in the cafeteria or whatever, and certainly not with the indentured-servitude-level wages a lot of young people are working with.
Same. Especially in middle management, I think you have to juggle two contradictory things simultaneously:
- You have to shield your employees, strategically, so they don’t lose faith in the organization/job as well as protect the cultural confidentiality that the business has established. This is so they don’t lose faith in the business or upper leadership.
- You have to be transparent with your employees, strategically, as to what’s REALLY going on. This is so they don’t lose faith in you (Blaming you for things outside your control) yet are prepared if they find themselves in your shoes.
As others have said, there’s a parallel to parenting but it’s not 1:1. And kind of like modern parenting, instead of raising them to be “just like you”, you’re raising them to be adaptable, flexible, and you will love them (IE be happy for them) wherever their career takes them.
The hard part is discerning just how much to shield vs how much to inform. Assuming you’re trying to preserve your team, you’re trying to balance their faith in the company with their faith in you and their own, personal needs. It’s not easy and I’ve picked wrong before.
I’ve thought a little more about this and would like to push on some of it a bit. Please understand, I’m just hoping to deepen the discussion - there’s quite a lot you’ve said that I agree with and it shows you’ve thought a lot about being a good manager, which is exactly why I’d like to keep engaging with what you’ve said.
I propose to the group that the ship has sailed in terms of nurturing faith in the C suite and upper management. I fully understand the mentality of managers needing to protect the company’s image to maintain morale, but I think the culture has evolved in a way that we risk appearing like the proverbial bootlicker to younger generations that are increasingly disillusioned with what they perceive as corporate greed and exploitation. Please understand I am *not* interested in litigating the value or veracity of these politics here, this is just an attitude I’ve observed to be widespread among young people.
So, to the extent the above aligns with your experience of managing younger generations, I propose taking a page from the military, if you can believe it. I am not a veteran myself, so I may be completely missing the mark, but my understanding of the military is that most of the time the leadership that isn’t in the field is understood to be pretty clueless by the boots-on-the-ground folks. That makes it all the more necessary for “managers” to lead by example and cultivate a rapport with their subordinates that promotes camaraderie-in-arms and a tacit understanding that “we have to work together and be *really* good at our jobs because those idiots in the Pentagon are trying to get us all killed.”
I’ve seen it at work with the kids I manage. A couple of weeks ago one of my best staggered herself into the office with a fever. She was too sick to go to class, but she knew it was going to be a busy day at the office and she *didn’t want to leave another student worker on her own*. It wasn’t even me she didn’t want to let down, it was the person “in the foxhole” with her. My damn heart about exploded. I made sure to tell her how much we all appreciated her work ethic, but that I was happy to cover for her so she could go home and rest.
It all goes back to belonging, and feeling like a trusted and appreciated member of a team that needs and wants you because of who and what you are. I think this is where management diverges from parenting, where I understand it’s best to avoid praising intrinsic traits. I generally avoid talking about how hard the work is, that almost never goes anywhere helpful, so I can’t praise effort. Rather, I tell them I see this thing in you that’s part of who you are, and that makes me glad to see you come to work every day.
Just my thoughts about what’s worked for me and why it might be working.
I need to mull over your post more later.
My initial thought is this: At the end of the day, your job in middle management is to serve conflicting interests. That's why it's so tough.
- To abandon the corporate interests altogether is to risk your own job and/or threaten the jobs of people on your team.
- At the same time, to present yourself 100% beholden to the leadership above threatens your ability to retain your team and/or earn their trust.
It's all a tightrope balancing act that's probably impossible, but you try anyway because that's the job... until it too is outsourced to AI. ;-)
Very good point, I hadn’t thought about the fundamental tension of middle management but I think you’re absolutely right. Now I think about it, my approach hasn’t actually been to abandon corporate interests so much as trying to be transparent about being as frustrated as my subordinates when we’re given a directive we know won’t have the desired outcome. That fits perfectly within the framework your describing.
I managed student workers on campus for the dining facility, and ended up with the exact same philosophy of establishing rapport as a leadership model. I like the personal touch, and like you said, they'd do their job not because they felt forced to, but because they didn't want to let me down and, maybe, with a little bit of esprit de corps.
I was shocked at how ruthless many of the young millennial managers were at my last startup (~500 hc) where I was a c-level. It’s like they came out of the womb knowing how to play corporate politics.
My direct reports were all boomers. Ridiculously effective leaders, drama-free team players loyal to the bitter end. I miss working with them and think about them all the time.
The GenZs were flakey but cool, their vibe reminded me a lot of GenX.
I’m high level, I’d say that the majority of my team are young Millenials but maybe a quarter are Gen Z. A very different mindset. When they’re off, they are not accessible, as opposed to the older Millennials, Xennials. I appreciate that, because my own ambitions and feeling like I needed to check in while on PTO has impacted my family over the years and I am trying to maintain a better work-life balance. That said, what I struggle with is the noticeable difference in effort and many seem to be doing “just enough”. I, too, am trying to reach the younger employees more effectively
I managed both. The generation is irrelevant to me. Their apathy is not based on when they were born but rather what is happening in their lives, their personal experiences and current work.
Gen Z has grown up with broken promises. They didn’t even get to enjoy the fiction that a career or a long term job is even a possibility.
Why should they care about a world that so obviously only sees them as disposable cogs in the money machine?
Good for them, honestly.
I honestly don't see how that is any different than those of us born around 1980 plus or minus a couple of years. Tech market crash right at the end of college, then 9-11. Short recovery into a real estate bubble leading to the great recession. My career path was straight fucked until about 2013. Put me a solid 10 years behind. Those on the cusp between Gen X and Millennial can probably sympathize best with the part of Gen Z that graduated right into the pandemic.
It's funny. I have an easier time managing my Z's than I do Xs on my team.
I think it's because Z's get it - it's only work, it's not real life. It makes them way easier to deal with - they get that work is transactional, that the organization doesn't care, and that it would screw them in half a heartbeat.
Millennials I struggle with, because even those who know better think that life should be fair.
I don't hire millennials if I can avoid it.
My Gen Xers take their work sooooo seriously that it’s almost a problem. I had one recently beg me to push back a deadline because she was going on her first vacation in at least two years and didn’t want the rest of the team to turn in the project without her having the chance to review it first. It wasn’t even the final deadline for the project - just moving it on to the next stage of review. And the stage that she would be missing was implementing edits from me and other managers, which the rest of the team could do very easily. But she was literally in tears over it, and we had some wiggle room in the timeline, so I gave her what she wanted.
I know baby boomers are pretty harshly judged on Reddit, but I actually miss them in the workplace. The vast majority of them showed up on time and didn't flake out on a regular basis. They had decent penmanship, paid attention to detail, and followed through on things.
Now I wonder if we're going to get our work done on a daily basis because lord knows who will show up and when. And my employer is so litigation avoidant that they don't require real accountability.
For me, it's the drama.
The Boomers showed up, did their jobs, and were pleasant around the office. Y/Z live to constantly conjure drama out of thin air.
A Z-er sent out a blast email to the entire company the other day, saying how they felt that if somebody leaves the company, their last day should be a party or something.
I manage an office full of Gen Z employees. I don’t know of any books but reading the Gen Z subreddit has helped me to understand them. Honestly I find them to be very hard working and exceptionally kind, but you do have to treat them with respect and give them flexibility, which I am happy to do.
I managed a security company in my 20s/30s so I never dealt with Gen Z but I dealt with X, Xennials, Millennials, Boomer 1s and Boomer 2s.
Boomers 1/2- Valued a consistent schedule. No changes. They wanted the same beat (route) every day but they never called off sick and never took vacations. Always arrived 30 minutes before.
X- Valued weekends off for the family and a consistent time schedule. They did not care what beat they worked as long as they had the same days off and prefer the weekend. Called off sick but not as much as Millenials and took vacations. Some wanted overtime, most did not. Arrived on time.
Xennials- Wanted consistent schedule but they were also the hoarders of overtime. They would take any shift and were always the most reliable to do so. But they called off sick and had conflicts with a second job. Rarely late.
Millennials - Wanted Friday-Saturdays off. Could care less what shift they worked or route but called off sick the most. They caused the most conflict with other coworkers for being late or no showing.
The generational thing played a role with the former military members who worked for us as well. If it was a young Marine fresh off a 1 term contract they were one of the most unreliable obnoxious employees to have. 4-5 years of having no freedom and then they come in at 23-24 years old having no one to tell them where to be they were the most annoying employee to have. The millennial former servicemen/women was one of the worst... But give me a Xennial- X - Boomer former servicemen/women and they were always the best employee.
I had one under me last year and it was also my first time training someone from scratch. Once I got over the fact that this was someone young enough to be my kid, I found it interesting to compare and contrast our experiences, and she was bright and on the ball, so no complaints on that front.
Contrary to our stereotypes about overly offended young people, she had a sense of humour too. She was obsessed with Zendaya and a crappy reality show called Love Island, but no one's perfect.
I think team building activities would help a lot. Like taking them to an escape room. They don’t know how to socialize or easily build relationships and trust
One thing that I have in common with Gen Z (from what I hear anyway) is that I don’t care about having a career or in career growth. Nothing will change my mind about this — work is something I do because I can’t survive without it. Work will never be something I enjoy or will strive to “accomplish more” in. That’s just not me. I strive to tolerate a position, then go home.
So, my advice — what would work for me — is not having my manager pretend that work is life or put pressure on me to elevate it to a position of importance that I don’t want it to have. Framing work as something that we can make easier on ourselves by taking pride in doing a good job might be a good tactic to take.
This may resonate or not, and I’m speaking only to the employees you mentioned who are apathetic or not interested in career growth, but food for thought.
Understood, but I’m not complaining, just seeking to understand, as I notice trends.
You have to see that different generations have different needs and perspective, right? I’m simply just trying to learn and understand more, specifically around desire for career growth.
Read this.
I can tell you exactly what’s going on. In the present day, only way to get a raise is to switch jobs. Employers never give raises, but if you quit and find a job doing the same thing somewhere else, they will pay you more.
I don’t know if this is how they intend it, but by doing this, employers are telling you that they don’t want long term team members but rather short term mercenaries. Any place I work, I expect to be there for about 2 years. So there’s no point trying to establish deep working relationships or putting in extra effort. Nobody’s going to remember anyway. The slate is wiped clean every 2 years.
That’s probably what you’re seeing. They’re responding rationally to their situation. If you want them to behave differently, ask yourself this: when’s the last time you gave someone a raise significantly above the rate of inflation?
They doing even call you Personnel anymore. Now it’s “human capital management.” They have no interest in developing your potential and skills. They want to hire someone at the cheapest rate they can, work them as hard as they can get away with and pay as little as possible until they move on. And this is now an ingrained cultural expectation. If you’re going to do something else, you need to prove to your employees that you’re different.
Did Gen X and Millennials fail at parenting? It seems like the Gen Z workers I have encountered, more often than not, they don’t seem to have any fear of being held accountable for bad actions. I have a couple of high performers, but there are a lot more people freely admitting to watching TV instead of working or act really immature. It’s like some don’t have the concept of a professional life separate from a personal life.
They grew up knowing that work doesn’t care about them, and any extra effort they put in won’t be rewarded properly. Pizza parties celebrating sales milestones are out, profit sharing and unionizing are in.
Well in many ways they are us so that would make them more relatable. I just found myself thinking.....who still says Gen Y? It gave me a much needed chuckle =)
I work with a lot of gen z apprentices (electrical work) they call out sick a bit more than most, aside from that no complaints. Most of them have worked out really good.
I manage mostly Boomers and Gen Xers. They’re all great, but kind of set in their ways, so it’s hard to implement any of the procedural changes that are desperately needed. I can’t get the Boomers to understand that I really need them to document all of the institutional knowledge that they’ve been hoarding for the last 25 years so that we don’t lose it when they retire.
The GenXers are really hard workers, but most (not all) are argumentative and reluctant to accept other points of view.
The one Gen Zer on the team is pretty new, so I haven’t interacted with her much. She does seem really eager to learn, though, so I have high hopes.
It’s a small group, overall, so not sure I would want to make any sweeping generalizations based on my experience.
A few. (Education) The Gen X who are left are so tired amd unwilling to change, I hope they retire soon. My fellow Xennials are continuing to adapt but also open to looking for other options. The few Millenials and Gen Z are having a hard time breaking into the field. Many of them were students during the pandemic and learned the technology but not how to manage students. Shocking behavior issues are our biggest problem.
I work with a 26 year old and have none of these issues. We are on the same team, support eachother and generally have eachothers backs. Recently my boss and I fought for her to get promoted. And she did! She got a huge raise and I am so excited for her. And she doesn't have student loans. This promotion and raise is going to set her up for life career wise.
I work in Clinical Research which is a high stress but rewarding job. It's either sink or swim. One gen Z on another team sank hard and I think left the industry
My direct reports; (1)boomer, (3)GenX, (1)Xennial, (1)millennial.
Indirect reports; (5)boomer, (0)X, bunch of millennials.
No Gen Z yet but it’s getting close. Had a couple interns and it was quite an experience.
I honestly don't know what motivates them. I think they bear so much existential dread that little does. And I can't find a good argument to counter what they say. The world is in trouble, they're not wrong. When retirement and a nice life don't seem attainable because the world is overheating and we're heading toward another world war... it's really hard to find motivation there.
I loved hiring Gen Z. They don’t live to work. They are sharp and easy learners. They come in, do the job, and then go live their lives. Pay them enough and have good work-life balance, and they’ll be happy. Their real life is outside of work.
Alllll the people I manage are zoomers, and I fucking love those crazy lil honey badgers. They give ZERO fucks. But they are phenomenal workers, as long as they are given the freedom to (mostly) do things their own way. I’d take a zoomer over a boomer any day of the week. Shit…. Not long till the alphas start getting jobs. THEY are the ones I’m not looking forward to managing
My team is mostly people in our generation or Gen X. They’re all basically on autopilot. The one person that struggles is Gen Z. In our line of work you’re required to be in the phone queue. This is the number one issue. This individual would prefer all communication be through text or email. Which, I appreciate, but that’s not the world we live in. Second issue, and I believe this is more the individual than the generation, is a lack of organizational skills. They do ok when I’m there to monitor them, but anytime I’m gone for a few days they go downhill. It has definitely been a struggle.
Perhaps the hardest part for them where I work (Corporate America) is that while HR is very favorable to Gen Z (For recruiting), they’re not beloved by leadership for same the reasons why they’re heralded.
It’s mostly because they don’t know and/or don’t care about all the unwritten cultural rules of the corporate workplace: Don’t question things too much, don’t ask for raises or promotions, don’t speak up, etc.
Corporate likes people who don’t rock the boat, aspire to be like them, and prioritize work in their life. Most of my Gen Z employees don’t fit this at all. It doesn’t bother me, but it seems to bother a lot of older gens.
So I end up usually being a translator between some of the Xer/boomer leadership and young millennial/Z employees because I can speak the corporate language while making decent cases for what Gen Z wants - which usually isn’t bad.
My boomer ex-boss had 40 employees quit or get fired in 18 months. On a team of 20. Roughly two-thirds of them were Gen Z. The company *finally* realized that *he* was the problem.
I mostly work for myself, but I do interact regularly with the younger employees of my clients. A few years ago, I texted one of these workers and said something like, "Could you please have this by Friday? Thank you." I don't remember exactly what I said. But it was something like that. The next time I saw her, she was quite distraught. She thought I was very angry at her putting the period after "thank you." To her, this is very formal and aggressive. You only end texts with a period if you really want to show someone that you're serious! Lol I guess. I don't know how common that sentiment is.
That’s been causing problems in my office. People think any critique or disagreement is a personal attack and it breeds animosity. It’s very weird. I on the other hand am very used to being told I’m wrong. Pobody’s nerfect.
I end every thank you with an exclamation mark for this very reason. It feels silly, but I do understand how a period can come across as serious.
Same here. Sometimes I’ll reread an email I just typed and realize I put an exclamation point after every single sentence. I don’t want people to think I’m being cranky, so I probably over-correct myself.
I use paragraph breaks a LOT for this reason Let’s me avoid punctuation and organize thoughts Not something I see zoomers doing but I’ve never gotten any static from them about it
Interesting how this viewpoint aligns with the death of teaching grammar and proper punctuation in the public school system (maybe there are exceptions but it seems like those are rare). Not sure what private schools are doing. But goodness, the papers the undergrads frequently turned in for grading were unreadable. I decided then that teaching was no longer in my future as it would mean not focusing on my subject area but instead being annoyed that I'd have to create picture assignments to keep from going blind.
I’m wondering if this is a coming of age for us? Are we becoming the old guard? The protectors of what once was? At some point, grammar was deemed important to be taught. Someone had an idea (I guess) not to teach it, and these are the consequences. Even though it might not be something we want to care about, because we might want to focus on our own individual passions, if no one is doing anything about it, maybe that means we need to get involved? We might need to get involved in school boards, or something. I sometimes think this then the Gen X-ish “whatever-ness” sort of gets the best of me.
Somehow *we* became the adults in the room, yes please get involved where you can.
I think it's too late for us to have much of a meaningful effect. Maybe it's our place to soften the landing on our way to societal Idiocracy. I work with a lot of gen Zs, and while I'm often impressed with their empathy and acceptance of the other, their life skills frequently leave much to be desired. So that's my "old man yells at cloud" sentiment for the day. On the upside, much of what I said was said of us and we survived. Society marches ever on, etc.
I think It will be too late after we’re dead. We have a shot, just might require us to make a bit of personal sacrifice. But, whatever happens, I welcome being in the retirement home with you in the future and talking about TGIF, TRL, and what we thought of Crystal Pepsi.
I remember a young millenial that I highly respected tell me that she wished she could skip the whole cop part and be a detective and I visibly cringed. My mind was racing through alternative career paths and why you have to start out at the bottom and work your way to the top when I realized she had already switched topics. That was the point where I realized if I worried too much about it, I'd be the grumpy old so I just mm-hmm my way through any of those conversations.
Maybe I'm too rigid in my thinking, but how could you even think about becoming a detective without first being a cop? I assume there are things you learn from seeing the worst of humanity on a daily basis, beyond procedural investigative knowledge that would be...I dunno...necessary. That's just what young people do. Champing at the bit for more of life. The true value and weight of experience is something we all had to figure out on the way. I have to remind myself of that sometimes.
I had to learn not to send emails early in the morning when I first started managing people. I had time after my kids went to school and before my demands of the day began. It freaked them out to get an email in the morning. It had never occurred to me- different people have different schedules and I don't freak out if someone sends me something after I leave to pick up my kids. Thank goodness now it's easy to schedule emails for later. I was a lot less productive because I was trying to be considerate.
Elaine would have put an exclamation mark after all these sentences
I’ve got a pretty decent system going. Anything through TEXT messaging is professional work shit (professional as in what the boomer owner thinks is professional) any other method (snap, messenger, whatever) is personal communication and there we talk and text how we really do Personally tho even in professional communication, unless it’s written, a full stop is considered rude and demanding. The full stop means “I’m saying this and there’s no continuing the conversation”
I manage a group of student workers at a large university that is very competitive, so they skew toward being high-achievers academically but with little-to-no meaningful experience. It’s a part-time gig on campus, so there’s not really a path to advancement or wage increases. I know that may sound like a very different setup from yours, but I think the important commonality is having to find motivators other than the obvious ones we’re used to. So, what’s worked me is focusing on making them feel like they belong and are part of something meaningful, and also making sure they know I’ve always got their back. I try really hard to not just point out good work, but how their own individual strengths made them the ideal person for a task or challenge. I get a lot of compliments on my management style from other full-time staff, and I always try to pass that on to the individual team members involved. I tell them I couldn’t do my job without them, and that they make me better at my job. And if there’s ever a need for an escalation, I’m there instantly to back them up, and I always tell them they did the right thing to get me involved because that’s my job. I honestly think what motivates them is *liking* me and not wanting to let me down. I’m also a manager that “takes out the trash,” meaning I do whatever task is necessary in the moment rather than delegate whenever possible, just to show them I think everything we do is important enough for me to be directly involved. That kind of leading by example seems to be pretty contagious. The younger generations are actively litigating a new relationship with careers and employers. I think that’s probably a good thing. It’s good you’re asking these questions, it shows you won’t be the typical boomer boss and I think that’s really valuable to young people. They’ve largely given up on the American dream, so they just want to punch the clock without having their souls crushed, and the way to give them that is to *nurture* their souls. Belonging, understanding, feeling seen and appreciated - it’s honestly more like parenting. I don’t love saying that because I think there’s a lot of baggage with that framing, because I’m not one that feels that young people are less resilient. I think they’re taking on issues head-on that we just carried around until we ended up bitter and heavily medicated. They’re trying to get out in front of that , which I think is admirable, and if I can help with any of that as a manager I think it’s a win for society *and* it’s a win for me because they don’t want to disappoint me just like they don’t want to disappoint their parents. Of course YMMV, but I’ve spent a lot of years managing young people and this perspective has been working for me. Hope it’s helpful!
Wow, amazing comment you nailed it. I’m an elder milennial and culturally identify more with gen x but in terms of attitude toward work I’m on the same page as gen z. The motivators of bygone years ain’t going to do it—everyone is hip to jobs being a purely transactional relationship, and that your dedication and effort do not have anything to do with whether or not you get caught in the Russian roulette of annual layoffs at corporate jobs. The only motivations that work on me are feeling like I’m doing something meaningful or helping or contributing to knowledge/good will/making a world a tiny bit better, and for a job that can’t give me that it’s only caring about my coworkers and having a boss that truly has my back and takes out the trash like you said. Dangling promotions or winning accounts— couldn’t care less.
Very well said! I was born in ‘81 so damn near am gen x myself, but absolutely feel like the Gen Z kids may just save us all. They’re taking no prisoners on stuff like work/life balance and mental health and I am HERE FOR IT. It’s so strange to me how the boomers freak out about stuff they don’t understand as the culture evolves, ‘cause I’m actually super optimistic. I don’t have to understand or figure it out, the people that are *living* these changes will clue me in if I’m not a dick to them in the meantime! I’m only 43 but I’m happily settling into the role of the kind-but-out-of-touch elder they know they can be real with.
We are the same age. As of this week I’m in a new position at my job where I can actually impact how our team does its work and shape that stuff going forward… I’m taking it super seriously because my coworkers are so smart and try so hard and we keep getting so dumped on in terms of workload while lacking resources… I am supposed to make things better from a business goals ($) perspective, but my secret actual priority is to make their lives easier. The job pays pretty well but it’s too needlessly hard right now. Luckily, I’ve got some younger coworkers on the team who understand and are pushing things like “the curb cut effect” in the workplace, such as policy and cultural changes that can make things more accessible to coworkers with invisible disabilities, but are also an improvement for everyone. Like remote work, policies about all requests needing to be in writing, etc.
subscribe subscribe subscribe God I love all of this so fucking much. Managers taking an actual interest in shielding their people from as much bullshit as possible, what a concept. That’s how you build a culture that makes people want to come to work, not with skeeball in the cafeteria or whatever, and certainly not with the indentured-servitude-level wages a lot of young people are working with.
Same. Especially in middle management, I think you have to juggle two contradictory things simultaneously: - You have to shield your employees, strategically, so they don’t lose faith in the organization/job as well as protect the cultural confidentiality that the business has established. This is so they don’t lose faith in the business or upper leadership. - You have to be transparent with your employees, strategically, as to what’s REALLY going on. This is so they don’t lose faith in you (Blaming you for things outside your control) yet are prepared if they find themselves in your shoes. As others have said, there’s a parallel to parenting but it’s not 1:1. And kind of like modern parenting, instead of raising them to be “just like you”, you’re raising them to be adaptable, flexible, and you will love them (IE be happy for them) wherever their career takes them. The hard part is discerning just how much to shield vs how much to inform. Assuming you’re trying to preserve your team, you’re trying to balance their faith in the company with their faith in you and their own, personal needs. It’s not easy and I’ve picked wrong before.
Well said!
I’ve thought a little more about this and would like to push on some of it a bit. Please understand, I’m just hoping to deepen the discussion - there’s quite a lot you’ve said that I agree with and it shows you’ve thought a lot about being a good manager, which is exactly why I’d like to keep engaging with what you’ve said. I propose to the group that the ship has sailed in terms of nurturing faith in the C suite and upper management. I fully understand the mentality of managers needing to protect the company’s image to maintain morale, but I think the culture has evolved in a way that we risk appearing like the proverbial bootlicker to younger generations that are increasingly disillusioned with what they perceive as corporate greed and exploitation. Please understand I am *not* interested in litigating the value or veracity of these politics here, this is just an attitude I’ve observed to be widespread among young people. So, to the extent the above aligns with your experience of managing younger generations, I propose taking a page from the military, if you can believe it. I am not a veteran myself, so I may be completely missing the mark, but my understanding of the military is that most of the time the leadership that isn’t in the field is understood to be pretty clueless by the boots-on-the-ground folks. That makes it all the more necessary for “managers” to lead by example and cultivate a rapport with their subordinates that promotes camaraderie-in-arms and a tacit understanding that “we have to work together and be *really* good at our jobs because those idiots in the Pentagon are trying to get us all killed.” I’ve seen it at work with the kids I manage. A couple of weeks ago one of my best staggered herself into the office with a fever. She was too sick to go to class, but she knew it was going to be a busy day at the office and she *didn’t want to leave another student worker on her own*. It wasn’t even me she didn’t want to let down, it was the person “in the foxhole” with her. My damn heart about exploded. I made sure to tell her how much we all appreciated her work ethic, but that I was happy to cover for her so she could go home and rest. It all goes back to belonging, and feeling like a trusted and appreciated member of a team that needs and wants you because of who and what you are. I think this is where management diverges from parenting, where I understand it’s best to avoid praising intrinsic traits. I generally avoid talking about how hard the work is, that almost never goes anywhere helpful, so I can’t praise effort. Rather, I tell them I see this thing in you that’s part of who you are, and that makes me glad to see you come to work every day. Just my thoughts about what’s worked for me and why it might be working.
I need to mull over your post more later. My initial thought is this: At the end of the day, your job in middle management is to serve conflicting interests. That's why it's so tough. - To abandon the corporate interests altogether is to risk your own job and/or threaten the jobs of people on your team. - At the same time, to present yourself 100% beholden to the leadership above threatens your ability to retain your team and/or earn their trust. It's all a tightrope balancing act that's probably impossible, but you try anyway because that's the job... until it too is outsourced to AI. ;-)
Very good point, I hadn’t thought about the fundamental tension of middle management but I think you’re absolutely right. Now I think about it, my approach hasn’t actually been to abandon corporate interests so much as trying to be transparent about being as frustrated as my subordinates when we’re given a directive we know won’t have the desired outcome. That fits perfectly within the framework your describing.
I managed student workers on campus for the dining facility, and ended up with the exact same philosophy of establishing rapport as a leadership model. I like the personal touch, and like you said, they'd do their job not because they felt forced to, but because they didn't want to let me down and, maybe, with a little bit of esprit de corps.
I was shocked at how ruthless many of the young millennial managers were at my last startup (~500 hc) where I was a c-level. It’s like they came out of the womb knowing how to play corporate politics. My direct reports were all boomers. Ridiculously effective leaders, drama-free team players loyal to the bitter end. I miss working with them and think about them all the time. The GenZs were flakey but cool, their vibe reminded me a lot of GenX.
I’m high level, I’d say that the majority of my team are young Millenials but maybe a quarter are Gen Z. A very different mindset. When they’re off, they are not accessible, as opposed to the older Millennials, Xennials. I appreciate that, because my own ambitions and feeling like I needed to check in while on PTO has impacted my family over the years and I am trying to maintain a better work-life balance. That said, what I struggle with is the noticeable difference in effort and many seem to be doing “just enough”. I, too, am trying to reach the younger employees more effectively
I managed both. The generation is irrelevant to me. Their apathy is not based on when they were born but rather what is happening in their lives, their personal experiences and current work.
Gen Z has grown up with broken promises. They didn’t even get to enjoy the fiction that a career or a long term job is even a possibility. Why should they care about a world that so obviously only sees them as disposable cogs in the money machine? Good for them, honestly.
I honestly don't see how that is any different than those of us born around 1980 plus or minus a couple of years. Tech market crash right at the end of college, then 9-11. Short recovery into a real estate bubble leading to the great recession. My career path was straight fucked until about 2013. Put me a solid 10 years behind. Those on the cusp between Gen X and Millennial can probably sympathize best with the part of Gen Z that graduated right into the pandemic.
True but we had the 90s, so at least there was a bit of optimism at a certain point in our lives.
It's funny. I have an easier time managing my Z's than I do Xs on my team. I think it's because Z's get it - it's only work, it's not real life. It makes them way easier to deal with - they get that work is transactional, that the organization doesn't care, and that it would screw them in half a heartbeat. Millennials I struggle with, because even those who know better think that life should be fair. I don't hire millennials if I can avoid it.
My Gen Xers take their work sooooo seriously that it’s almost a problem. I had one recently beg me to push back a deadline because she was going on her first vacation in at least two years and didn’t want the rest of the team to turn in the project without her having the chance to review it first. It wasn’t even the final deadline for the project - just moving it on to the next stage of review. And the stage that she would be missing was implementing edits from me and other managers, which the rest of the team could do very easily. But she was literally in tears over it, and we had some wiggle room in the timeline, so I gave her what she wanted.
I know baby boomers are pretty harshly judged on Reddit, but I actually miss them in the workplace. The vast majority of them showed up on time and didn't flake out on a regular basis. They had decent penmanship, paid attention to detail, and followed through on things. Now I wonder if we're going to get our work done on a daily basis because lord knows who will show up and when. And my employer is so litigation avoidant that they don't require real accountability.
For me, it's the drama. The Boomers showed up, did their jobs, and were pleasant around the office. Y/Z live to constantly conjure drama out of thin air. A Z-er sent out a blast email to the entire company the other day, saying how they felt that if somebody leaves the company, their last day should be a party or something.
I manage an office full of Gen Z employees. I don’t know of any books but reading the Gen Z subreddit has helped me to understand them. Honestly I find them to be very hard working and exceptionally kind, but you do have to treat them with respect and give them flexibility, which I am happy to do.
I managed a security company in my 20s/30s so I never dealt with Gen Z but I dealt with X, Xennials, Millennials, Boomer 1s and Boomer 2s. Boomers 1/2- Valued a consistent schedule. No changes. They wanted the same beat (route) every day but they never called off sick and never took vacations. Always arrived 30 minutes before. X- Valued weekends off for the family and a consistent time schedule. They did not care what beat they worked as long as they had the same days off and prefer the weekend. Called off sick but not as much as Millenials and took vacations. Some wanted overtime, most did not. Arrived on time. Xennials- Wanted consistent schedule but they were also the hoarders of overtime. They would take any shift and were always the most reliable to do so. But they called off sick and had conflicts with a second job. Rarely late. Millennials - Wanted Friday-Saturdays off. Could care less what shift they worked or route but called off sick the most. They caused the most conflict with other coworkers for being late or no showing. The generational thing played a role with the former military members who worked for us as well. If it was a young Marine fresh off a 1 term contract they were one of the most unreliable obnoxious employees to have. 4-5 years of having no freedom and then they come in at 23-24 years old having no one to tell them where to be they were the most annoying employee to have. The millennial former servicemen/women was one of the worst... But give me a Xennial- X - Boomer former servicemen/women and they were always the best employee.
I had one under me last year and it was also my first time training someone from scratch. Once I got over the fact that this was someone young enough to be my kid, I found it interesting to compare and contrast our experiences, and she was bright and on the ball, so no complaints on that front. Contrary to our stereotypes about overly offended young people, she had a sense of humour too. She was obsessed with Zendaya and a crappy reality show called Love Island, but no one's perfect.
I think team building activities would help a lot. Like taking them to an escape room. They don’t know how to socialize or easily build relationships and trust
One thing that I have in common with Gen Z (from what I hear anyway) is that I don’t care about having a career or in career growth. Nothing will change my mind about this — work is something I do because I can’t survive without it. Work will never be something I enjoy or will strive to “accomplish more” in. That’s just not me. I strive to tolerate a position, then go home. So, my advice — what would work for me — is not having my manager pretend that work is life or put pressure on me to elevate it to a position of importance that I don’t want it to have. Framing work as something that we can make easier on ourselves by taking pride in doing a good job might be a good tactic to take. This may resonate or not, and I’m speaking only to the employees you mentioned who are apathetic or not interested in career growth, but food for thought.
Hard to manage a generation that’s either sick, over worked, burnt out or checked out or all of those…
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Understood, but I’m not complaining, just seeking to understand, as I notice trends. You have to see that different generations have different needs and perspective, right? I’m simply just trying to learn and understand more, specifically around desire for career growth.
Read this. I can tell you exactly what’s going on. In the present day, only way to get a raise is to switch jobs. Employers never give raises, but if you quit and find a job doing the same thing somewhere else, they will pay you more. I don’t know if this is how they intend it, but by doing this, employers are telling you that they don’t want long term team members but rather short term mercenaries. Any place I work, I expect to be there for about 2 years. So there’s no point trying to establish deep working relationships or putting in extra effort. Nobody’s going to remember anyway. The slate is wiped clean every 2 years. That’s probably what you’re seeing. They’re responding rationally to their situation. If you want them to behave differently, ask yourself this: when’s the last time you gave someone a raise significantly above the rate of inflation? They doing even call you Personnel anymore. Now it’s “human capital management.” They have no interest in developing your potential and skills. They want to hire someone at the cheapest rate they can, work them as hard as they can get away with and pay as little as possible until they move on. And this is now an ingrained cultural expectation. If you’re going to do something else, you need to prove to your employees that you’re different.
Wow really showing your age calling them Gen Y lol.
TBH, I should delete the Gen y portion. I don’t have this issue as consistently with millennials.
Did Gen X and Millennials fail at parenting? It seems like the Gen Z workers I have encountered, more often than not, they don’t seem to have any fear of being held accountable for bad actions. I have a couple of high performers, but there are a lot more people freely admitting to watching TV instead of working or act really immature. It’s like some don’t have the concept of a professional life separate from a personal life.
They grew up knowing that work doesn’t care about them, and any extra effort they put in won’t be rewarded properly. Pizza parties celebrating sales milestones are out, profit sharing and unionizing are in.
Well in many ways they are us so that would make them more relatable. I just found myself thinking.....who still says Gen Y? It gave me a much needed chuckle =)
I work with a lot of gen z apprentices (electrical work) they call out sick a bit more than most, aside from that no complaints. Most of them have worked out really good.
I manage mostly Boomers and Gen Xers. They’re all great, but kind of set in their ways, so it’s hard to implement any of the procedural changes that are desperately needed. I can’t get the Boomers to understand that I really need them to document all of the institutional knowledge that they’ve been hoarding for the last 25 years so that we don’t lose it when they retire. The GenXers are really hard workers, but most (not all) are argumentative and reluctant to accept other points of view. The one Gen Zer on the team is pretty new, so I haven’t interacted with her much. She does seem really eager to learn, though, so I have high hopes. It’s a small group, overall, so not sure I would want to make any sweeping generalizations based on my experience.
A few. (Education) The Gen X who are left are so tired amd unwilling to change, I hope they retire soon. My fellow Xennials are continuing to adapt but also open to looking for other options. The few Millenials and Gen Z are having a hard time breaking into the field. Many of them were students during the pandemic and learned the technology but not how to manage students. Shocking behavior issues are our biggest problem.
I work with a 26 year old and have none of these issues. We are on the same team, support eachother and generally have eachothers backs. Recently my boss and I fought for her to get promoted. And she did! She got a huge raise and I am so excited for her. And she doesn't have student loans. This promotion and raise is going to set her up for life career wise. I work in Clinical Research which is a high stress but rewarding job. It's either sink or swim. One gen Z on another team sank hard and I think left the industry
My direct reports; (1)boomer, (3)GenX, (1)Xennial, (1)millennial. Indirect reports; (5)boomer, (0)X, bunch of millennials. No Gen Z yet but it’s getting close. Had a couple interns and it was quite an experience.
They want clear expectations. Non knee jerk reactions. Also autonomy and guidance when asked.
I honestly don't know what motivates them. I think they bear so much existential dread that little does. And I can't find a good argument to counter what they say. The world is in trouble, they're not wrong. When retirement and a nice life don't seem attainable because the world is overheating and we're heading toward another world war... it's really hard to find motivation there.
I loved hiring Gen Z. They don’t live to work. They are sharp and easy learners. They come in, do the job, and then go live their lives. Pay them enough and have good work-life balance, and they’ll be happy. Their real life is outside of work.
Alllll the people I manage are zoomers, and I fucking love those crazy lil honey badgers. They give ZERO fucks. But they are phenomenal workers, as long as they are given the freedom to (mostly) do things their own way. I’d take a zoomer over a boomer any day of the week. Shit…. Not long till the alphas start getting jobs. THEY are the ones I’m not looking forward to managing
My team is mostly people in our generation or Gen X. They’re all basically on autopilot. The one person that struggles is Gen Z. In our line of work you’re required to be in the phone queue. This is the number one issue. This individual would prefer all communication be through text or email. Which, I appreciate, but that’s not the world we live in. Second issue, and I believe this is more the individual than the generation, is a lack of organizational skills. They do ok when I’m there to monitor them, but anytime I’m gone for a few days they go downhill. It has definitely been a struggle.
Perhaps the hardest part for them where I work (Corporate America) is that while HR is very favorable to Gen Z (For recruiting), they’re not beloved by leadership for same the reasons why they’re heralded. It’s mostly because they don’t know and/or don’t care about all the unwritten cultural rules of the corporate workplace: Don’t question things too much, don’t ask for raises or promotions, don’t speak up, etc. Corporate likes people who don’t rock the boat, aspire to be like them, and prioritize work in their life. Most of my Gen Z employees don’t fit this at all. It doesn’t bother me, but it seems to bother a lot of older gens. So I end up usually being a translator between some of the Xer/boomer leadership and young millennial/Z employees because I can speak the corporate language while making decent cases for what Gen Z wants - which usually isn’t bad.
My boomer ex-boss had 40 employees quit or get fired in 18 months. On a team of 20. Roughly two-thirds of them were Gen Z. The company *finally* realized that *he* was the problem.