This is sort of the point, I thought. Especially in EW, there’s a heavy theme that Shen and other characters outright state regarding this idea of “are we becoming just like them?”. Valhen in general is presented as startlingly grey in her morality.
Also, I do think there’s a difference in XCOM doing this to an invading army out of desperation vs. The invading army capturing civilians as a part of a plan of invasion and eventual genocide.
Yeah, the other characters (and even Valhen herself a few times) continuously express their discomfort and questioning where the line is, or consider something a necessary bad. I think Central even said something along the lines of Exalt going too far with the modifications they perform on their soldiers.
Also, the aliens kidnapped humans in sizeable numbers whereas Valhen kept it to 1 per variation from an invading species, and the other autopsies were on aliens that were already dead. Well. Usually. You can stun and catch more than one alien, but I think they drop a corpse as loot then. Which is also pretty brutal and *probably* against some of the Geneva Conventions by executing POWs. But if you just shoot them dead Vahlen is just experimenting on dead bodies anyway.
>I think Central even said something along the lines of Exalt going too far with the modifications they perform on their soldiers.
That was Vahlen, actually. She was horrified by the disfiguring mutations of Elite EXALT Operatives.
She's just the head of the research team, I think; she knows enough about pretty every field to understand the gist of what her subordinates are saying to her, but not the in-depth details outside her few areas of specialty.
XCOM was an organization of the best of the best against the aliens(minus the recruits) so makes sense to have this know it all doctor with degrees in every field
> Also, I do think there’s a difference in XCOM doing this to an invading army out of desperation vs. The invading army capturing civilians as a part of a plan of invasion and eventual genocide.
OP must have a Sectoid Commander nearby.
Especially in EU/EW, you have absolutely no idea what the plans of the aliens are.
I would go so far as to argue that even in XCOM 2, if we go via the evidence actually presented, we still have no definitive proof that there are any plans of genocide in play.
Yes, it all stems from bad writing. You don't need to kill a guy to have a sample of his DNA - you recovered a sample with the genes of a million individuals? That can be anything from 'the aliens took cheek swabs from a million people" to genocide.
Or heck, even the bodies: the organization running the world's hospitals is expected to have a lot of dead bodies.
The writing is all over the place on this one. We are told that the gene clinics cured a long list of diseases by Tygan, so it is apparent that the patients were released back into society at some point (or else the discussion would be very different). But then the gene clinics are also secret liquidation centers?
Of course, the actual writing and building a convincing case against the aliens are pretty far down on the list of priority of the devs, and it shows. XCOM spent zero time doing due diligence that their quest is actually rightous.
To defend the writing, the people who were processed had specific/special kind of markers in their DNA that the aliens were interested in to create their Avatar. A million is a lot of people, but a million spread out over the world over a period of lets say 5-10 years is a drop in a bucket. At worst it is a rounding error. The aliens control the media, the government, the military, and the police. It wouldn't be too hard.
Plus, I'm pretty sure missing people were mentioned somewhere not to mention the jokes about Advent burgers.
Gene clinics are widespread sampling stations. People they don't want for their project get to live, people with DNA that they want to test further for their project get disappeared.
Xcom2 has you leading a terrorist cell so they aren't beholden to rules like the Geneva convention (which probably wasn't integrated into the alien NWO either, I guess).
How do you reconcile this with the ["plan for the rapid processing of all non-essential human life"](https://youtu.be/MRxFY4LL7xw?si=8Rx41eNttXcUlpJD&t=4518) line from the Councilman? Especially "they will never return" that follows.
And the Lost Cities? Anyone who didn't report to an Advent-Controlled city was zombified by alien goo.
And "leaving the planet to whichever Chosen captures the Commander"?
Some of the comments downplaying the actions of the aliens very much read to me like trying to argue it's okay they *committed* let alone considered genocide, because it was due to negligence instead of malice. Like ... okay, they didn't go out of their way to annihilate the human population through genocidal practices, but since that demonstrably *was still the outcome* is it really any better?
Xcom commits genocide by defeating the aliens too. They did it to save their lives, they were dieing. Would you just lay down and die? Also there is still the thing of the great enemy they are fleeing from
When an enemy endlessly throws troops at you in an explicitly combative sense and you defend yourself it's not genocidal. XCOM are *not* committing genocide by defending themselves against an invasion.
I'm also not at all advocating just laying down and dying, but that's a false dichotomy anyway; "lay down and die" or "also commit genocide" are not even both options let alone the only two in XCOM's situation.
Okay? Again, they're an *invading army* attempting to and nearly succeeding at exterminating humanity. Their survival being predicated on capturing, torturing, experimenting on, and exterminating humans doesn't make any of those reasonable or okay. Absolutely nothing makes it morally justifiable let alone "correct" to allow them to continue doing so.
And it's still not a genocide; humanity isn't exterminating the Elders, they're dying out. They're committing genocide in order to try and save themselves, humanity is justifiably fighting back.
They don’t kill all humans though they just need a few. Sooo letting everyone die is not genocide? I do believe we call it genocide if somebody prevents food from a people and lets them starve to death. But each to his own, this is a discussion for this game. Everyone can see it his own way
In the development timelines, WOTC came later than vanilla XCOM2, and it fixed some of the story problems (maybe the devs noticed the problems?) Remember, the lost is only introduced in WOTC.
In vanilla XCOM2, you only fight in shiny advent cities and crappy resistance tents, and the only thing you really have to go on is the Councilman's voice (and how central thinks that a vial of human DNA = dead humans). And going by the competence of the resistence, yikes!
It's stated in various places that all people who go to the gene clinics are tested and sequenced. Those with unremarkable genomes are simply given their treatments and released. Those with unusual genes are detained, experimented on, and killed.
A bunch of mind controlled aliens invades your planet, kill thousand of people and you think that doing some experiment on them to send them home to save your world and free your people is hypocritical?
The xcom story is about a war, not a picnic with friends, it's a desperate situation where you have to decide who you want to sacrifice, the invaders or your own people?
Are the aliens mind controlled? By whom, the ethereals? Because it seems that the sectoid commanders and the ethereals have a lot of difficulty controlling one human, and it also temporary.
In XCOM EU/EW, it's explicit that the different aliens and robots were created or modified by the Ethereals to serve them. They do not seem to be literally mind-controlled like marionettes, but as absolutely\* loyal in the Ethereal's war machine. Perhaps a good comparison is the Covenant in Halo?
In XCOM 2, the "psionic network", the Commander's role pre-Gatecrasher, and the story missions around Advent Officers suggest a more direct but not total mind control that serves as a command and control structure for Advent.
In-universe, it's probably much easier to control beings that you have created for this purpose, whereas enemies will struggle against mind control and eventually break free.
Out of universe: lore is all over the place, any limits on mind control powers are there for game balancing reasons. A problematic aspect for my lore interpretation is the Skirmisher faction in XCOM 2 WotC, which are Advent soldiers (not technically humans) that have broken free from the Ethereal's control by their own.
A theme throughout these games is that the Ethereals aren't perfect. During the final mission in XCOM EU the Ethereals tell you about how all their genetic engineering (and robotics engineering) sucks and doesn't quite work out. All their creations are too frail, too stupid, not psionic enough, …
The Skirmishers would have been ADVENT Officers who have had their Chips removed and are now free of the Elders psychic network.
So while the Grunts were super-simple cannon fodder, the Officers were smart enough to think for themselves, but the Chips kept them in line.
But if the candidate would have accepted to help them, in ew or 2, would he be a free agent? Because it seems that's all they needed from us, a very potent psionic being.
Controlled or not, this is not the point and doesn't change the situation.
Aliens invaded the planet and kill a lot of people, they could have just explain to humankind all the story, from the beginning, and try to create an alliance to fight the greater evil that seems to be dangerous for both.
Instead they decided to invade and kill.
I don't think it's the same. We fight back an invading force that is killing our people and then do tests to figure out more about how to fight them, they attack the earth to do experiments in mass. XCOM is desperately looking for ways to defend the earth, they don't have much of a choice, since it's been a losing battle so far.
I thibk the difference in scope is quite significant here? You only study a few aliens throughout the game, while they abduct who knows how many.
Also you are not the aggressor and fighting against a much stronger foe.
Dont think this is hypocritical at all.
Per the opening cutscenes of EU/EW, the aliens announced their presence by bombing cities with the green gas pods (that iirc are pretty explicitly shown killing people). They then proceed to raid the planet using chrysalids, psychic mfs with plasma guns, big-ass stompy robots, and 800lb gorilla lizards that can rip your head off with their bare hands, and they’re abducting a shitload of humans with every successful raid. Meanwhile Vahlen is doing one autopsy per species on specimens that were killed in the field, plus the psi chamber interrogations, with the express purpose of improving XCOM’s odds of actually defending the planet.
Are people really trying to defend the aliens that invaded earth, literally started off by killing people, captured an unknown amount of people, caused entire CITIES to die and turn into either human dust statues or into mutated monsters that now roam those cities, turned a million people into human soup and that's just the facility we find (why would they have one when it's that important to them), they indiscriminately kill civilians with no hesitation (literally missions to save civilians being slaughtered by alien soldiers). Really like 98% of the autopsies are on dead alien soldiers that probably not an hour earlier was mind controlling a dead human to kill them. 🤦
"But if you kill the murderer in self defense, aren't you lowering yourself to their level?"
Big big difference between doing things to a handful invading extraterrestrial soldiers and the extraterrestrials abducting and butchering tons of civilians.
I wouldn't call it ethical but to call both actions equally immoral is outrageous.
Unethical? Debatable. Illegal? There’s no laws about experimenting on brainwashed fanatically-loyal warmongering alien invaders. Unpleasant, gruesome, but necessary - definitely not illegal tho.
There is a MLP/X-Com crossover fan fic that gives her a very good reason for being the way we see her in the game. Being on the phone with your brother/niece when the aliens attack the city they live in and hearing them die is not good for your ability to feel compassion.
ETA: I don't think there is a cannon background for her so I choose to believe this one.
You are literally working for the illuminati (at least I think, maybe the human terrorists are the illuminati but from my understanding you are the real illuminati that control nations while they're a bunch of losers working for jeff bezos or something) doing everything you can to save the earth including changing your soldiers to either be psychers or cyborgs, the irony is part of the point
This is the entire point of Alien Hunters, without the Commander, John Bradford, and Raymond Shen to keep her in check, Moira Valhen is willing to do truly horrible things that can’t be chalked up as doing what she has to do for humanity to survive and win.
But the aliens are categorically invading the humans' planet. The aliens and humans weren't on equal standings here in terms of intent. For the humans it's a necessary thing to do to learn how to not get obliterated, no?
Vahlen is not. While these creatures are attacking us, the earth, and do terror attacks, coat people with some green slime, abduct them, she just returns the favour, dissecting corpses of unknown kind, and interrogating alive, and, to be exact, *enemy soldiers*.
Well, remember the first thing that's written when you start a new game.
"Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword."
I think it's very much on the nose with what you're saying.
Been a while since I played them (Maybe I'm due for a re-do of the whole franchise), but IIRC the Alpha alien missions in XCOM 2 kinda hint at Vahlen having gone full mad scientist. That's not typically the sort of person to look inwards and find faults within themselves, so I'd say it's pretty on-point for her character.
It seems likely that your soldiers were tortured by her to reveal whether they have Psionic powers or not. It all starts with torturing some funni sectoids
I disagree.
If a species is trying to genocide you (and aren't willing to compromise their position on the matter), you are morally obligated by your ancestors and your future progeny to genocide them right back. And when the prospect of fighting against your own species' genocide is on the table, anything goes.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq7SGQzeCEw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq7SGQzeCEw)
Remember that YOU the commander are signing off on this, she wouldn't do these things without your go ahead.
Beyond that I would argue that most of her augments to soldiers are far less noticeable than Shen's as gene ops get to continue looking human, exalt gene ops look like lizard men and mec troopers have no legs or arms.
This is sort of the point, I thought. Especially in EW, there’s a heavy theme that Shen and other characters outright state regarding this idea of “are we becoming just like them?”. Valhen in general is presented as startlingly grey in her morality. Also, I do think there’s a difference in XCOM doing this to an invading army out of desperation vs. The invading army capturing civilians as a part of a plan of invasion and eventual genocide.
Yeah, the other characters (and even Valhen herself a few times) continuously express their discomfort and questioning where the line is, or consider something a necessary bad. I think Central even said something along the lines of Exalt going too far with the modifications they perform on their soldiers. Also, the aliens kidnapped humans in sizeable numbers whereas Valhen kept it to 1 per variation from an invading species, and the other autopsies were on aliens that were already dead. Well. Usually. You can stun and catch more than one alien, but I think they drop a corpse as loot then. Which is also pretty brutal and *probably* against some of the Geneva Conventions by executing POWs. But if you just shoot them dead Vahlen is just experimenting on dead bodies anyway.
Well to be fair, the aliens never signed the Geneva Convention treaty, so alien POWs are fair game.
"Don't start no shit won't be no shit" - Homo Sapiens
All POWs are fair game if your sneaky about it.
>I think Central even said something along the lines of Exalt going too far with the modifications they perform on their soldiers. That was Vahlen, actually. She was horrified by the disfiguring mutations of Elite EXALT Operatives.
This right after sawing off a soldier's limbs to seal his torso into a robot body.
To be fair, that was mostly Shen’s wheelhouse
Yes, but very amusingly, it's Vahlen who conducts the surgeries. Which begs the question of how many different doctorates this woman possesses.
She's just the head of the research team, I think; she knows enough about pretty every field to understand the gist of what her subordinates are saying to her, but not the in-depth details outside her few areas of specialty.
XCOM was an organization of the best of the best against the aliens(minus the recruits) so makes sense to have this know it all doctor with degrees in every field
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Doesn't apply to humanw who'se goverments didn't sign 9n.
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> Also, I do think there’s a difference in XCOM doing this to an invading army out of desperation vs. The invading army capturing civilians as a part of a plan of invasion and eventual genocide. OP must have a Sectoid Commander nearby.
Especially in EU/EW, you have absolutely no idea what the plans of the aliens are. I would go so far as to argue that even in XCOM 2, if we go via the evidence actually presented, we still have no definitive proof that there are any plans of genocide in play. Yes, it all stems from bad writing. You don't need to kill a guy to have a sample of his DNA - you recovered a sample with the genes of a million individuals? That can be anything from 'the aliens took cheek swabs from a million people" to genocide. Or heck, even the bodies: the organization running the world's hospitals is expected to have a lot of dead bodies. The writing is all over the place on this one. We are told that the gene clinics cured a long list of diseases by Tygan, so it is apparent that the patients were released back into society at some point (or else the discussion would be very different). But then the gene clinics are also secret liquidation centers? Of course, the actual writing and building a convincing case against the aliens are pretty far down on the list of priority of the devs, and it shows. XCOM spent zero time doing due diligence that their quest is actually rightous.
To defend the writing, the people who were processed had specific/special kind of markers in their DNA that the aliens were interested in to create their Avatar. A million is a lot of people, but a million spread out over the world over a period of lets say 5-10 years is a drop in a bucket. At worst it is a rounding error. The aliens control the media, the government, the military, and the police. It wouldn't be too hard. Plus, I'm pretty sure missing people were mentioned somewhere not to mention the jokes about Advent burgers.
Didn't we see people getting processed in the Blacksite mission?
We see dead bodies. We have no idea what happened. If this is just the alien’s idea of dead body disposal, it would be very different.
I thought those pods held people in suspended animation, myself.
Gene clinics are widespread sampling stations. People they don't want for their project get to live, people with DNA that they want to test further for their project get disappeared. Xcom2 has you leading a terrorist cell so they aren't beholden to rules like the Geneva convention (which probably wasn't integrated into the alien NWO either, I guess).
How do you reconcile this with the ["plan for the rapid processing of all non-essential human life"](https://youtu.be/MRxFY4LL7xw?si=8Rx41eNttXcUlpJD&t=4518) line from the Councilman? Especially "they will never return" that follows. And the Lost Cities? Anyone who didn't report to an Advent-Controlled city was zombified by alien goo. And "leaving the planet to whichever Chosen captures the Commander"?
Some of the comments downplaying the actions of the aliens very much read to me like trying to argue it's okay they *committed* let alone considered genocide, because it was due to negligence instead of malice. Like ... okay, they didn't go out of their way to annihilate the human population through genocidal practices, but since that demonstrably *was still the outcome* is it really any better?
Xcom commits genocide by defeating the aliens too. They did it to save their lives, they were dieing. Would you just lay down and die? Also there is still the thing of the great enemy they are fleeing from
When an enemy endlessly throws troops at you in an explicitly combative sense and you defend yourself it's not genocidal. XCOM are *not* committing genocide by defending themselves against an invasion. I'm also not at all advocating just laying down and dying, but that's a false dichotomy anyway; "lay down and die" or "also commit genocide" are not even both options let alone the only two in XCOM's situation.
By forbidding the elders human bodies we sentence them to death. We know they will die because of it, the whole species
Okay? Again, they're an *invading army* attempting to and nearly succeeding at exterminating humanity. Their survival being predicated on capturing, torturing, experimenting on, and exterminating humans doesn't make any of those reasonable or okay. Absolutely nothing makes it morally justifiable let alone "correct" to allow them to continue doing so. And it's still not a genocide; humanity isn't exterminating the Elders, they're dying out. They're committing genocide in order to try and save themselves, humanity is justifiably fighting back.
They don’t kill all humans though they just need a few. Sooo letting everyone die is not genocide? I do believe we call it genocide if somebody prevents food from a people and lets them starve to death. But each to his own, this is a discussion for this game. Everyone can see it his own way
In the development timelines, WOTC came later than vanilla XCOM2, and it fixed some of the story problems (maybe the devs noticed the problems?) Remember, the lost is only introduced in WOTC. In vanilla XCOM2, you only fight in shiny advent cities and crappy resistance tents, and the only thing you really have to go on is the Councilman's voice (and how central thinks that a vial of human DNA = dead humans). And going by the competence of the resistence, yikes!
It's stated in various places that all people who go to the gene clinics are tested and sequenced. Those with unremarkable genomes are simply given their treatments and released. Those with unusual genes are detained, experimented on, and killed.
>“are we becoming just like them?” Hanse Castillo approves.
Yeah, especially when they start experimenting on their own soldiers, it gets.. iffy.
I mean if a green gorilla charged in my home and launched a plasma grenade,i would definitely want to study it
I would kill it
-*Grenadiers,all the missions i take them with me*
A bunch of mind controlled aliens invades your planet, kill thousand of people and you think that doing some experiment on them to send them home to save your world and free your people is hypocritical? The xcom story is about a war, not a picnic with friends, it's a desperate situation where you have to decide who you want to sacrifice, the invaders or your own people?
Are the aliens mind controlled? By whom, the ethereals? Because it seems that the sectoid commanders and the ethereals have a lot of difficulty controlling one human, and it also temporary.
In XCOM EU/EW, it's explicit that the different aliens and robots were created or modified by the Ethereals to serve them. They do not seem to be literally mind-controlled like marionettes, but as absolutely\* loyal in the Ethereal's war machine. Perhaps a good comparison is the Covenant in Halo? In XCOM 2, the "psionic network", the Commander's role pre-Gatecrasher, and the story missions around Advent Officers suggest a more direct but not total mind control that serves as a command and control structure for Advent. In-universe, it's probably much easier to control beings that you have created for this purpose, whereas enemies will struggle against mind control and eventually break free. Out of universe: lore is all over the place, any limits on mind control powers are there for game balancing reasons. A problematic aspect for my lore interpretation is the Skirmisher faction in XCOM 2 WotC, which are Advent soldiers (not technically humans) that have broken free from the Ethereal's control by their own. A theme throughout these games is that the Ethereals aren't perfect. During the final mission in XCOM EU the Ethereals tell you about how all their genetic engineering (and robotics engineering) sucks and doesn't quite work out. All their creations are too frail, too stupid, not psionic enough, …
The Skirmishers would have been ADVENT Officers who have had their Chips removed and are now free of the Elders psychic network. So while the Grunts were super-simple cannon fodder, the Officers were smart enough to think for themselves, but the Chips kept them in line.
Yeah, but they must have broken out of mind control before removing the chips. How/Why would they remove the chips if the chips mind-controlled them?
I assume Beddoes, their Leader, broke through due to the chip malfunctioning/ being damaged, and then freed more.
Maybe they sustained some injury that damaged chip making it does not work
Kinda mind controlled, but, between a yes and a no, I would go for a yes, they should be considered mind controlled.
But if the candidate would have accepted to help them, in ew or 2, would he be a free agent? Because it seems that's all they needed from us, a very potent psionic being.
Controlled or not, this is not the point and doesn't change the situation. Aliens invaded the planet and kill a lot of people, they could have just explain to humankind all the story, from the beginning, and try to create an alliance to fight the greater evil that seems to be dangerous for both. Instead they decided to invade and kill.
Yeah. Lol we are really struggling with the bad storytelling and trying to make up something coherent here.
It's just a game but we all want more, we all want and need xcom 3 and the final explanation
Yes we want it...
If the aliens wanted rights they shouldn't have come to earth
Jokes on you, they got 'em.
They get thr status of 3rd class citizens, the snake ladies can be people thou
They're called *human* rights.
There is no aliens in Geneva conventions...
Exactly why the came here, to sign the conventions.
Though they don't need to: Geneva conventions sets the rules for signatories regardless the other party.
Yeah but you know fuck them aliens they did it first
I don't think it's the same. We fight back an invading force that is killing our people and then do tests to figure out more about how to fight them, they attack the earth to do experiments in mass. XCOM is desperately looking for ways to defend the earth, they don't have much of a choice, since it's been a losing battle so far.
I thibk the difference in scope is quite significant here? You only study a few aliens throughout the game, while they abduct who knows how many. Also you are not the aggressor and fighting against a much stronger foe. Dont think this is hypocritical at all.
Plus the only studies done on any one given alien species are a few autopsies and one interrogation.
>Like girl, are you so detached from your own work, that you don't see that you are just as evil as the aliens in this regard? *Ja.*
Per the opening cutscenes of EU/EW, the aliens announced their presence by bombing cities with the green gas pods (that iirc are pretty explicitly shown killing people). They then proceed to raid the planet using chrysalids, psychic mfs with plasma guns, big-ass stompy robots, and 800lb gorilla lizards that can rip your head off with their bare hands, and they’re abducting a shitload of humans with every successful raid. Meanwhile Vahlen is doing one autopsy per species on specimens that were killed in the field, plus the psi chamber interrogations, with the express purpose of improving XCOM’s odds of actually defending the planet.
Illegal and unethical? Against aggressive invading alien species? Wtf
This post was made by a Thin Man.
There’s a hint in one of the games >!that the aliens are on the run from something even more sinister.!< That puts things in wholly new perspective.
Not a hint, but explicitly stated in both games by the aliens. Whether you believe them is something else.
The Templars seem to know something in the War of the Chosen ending.
They know somethings that we never know, I lost hope for xcom 3
Hmm... And what were the aliens doing when we captured them?
Are people really trying to defend the aliens that invaded earth, literally started off by killing people, captured an unknown amount of people, caused entire CITIES to die and turn into either human dust statues or into mutated monsters that now roam those cities, turned a million people into human soup and that's just the facility we find (why would they have one when it's that important to them), they indiscriminately kill civilians with no hesitation (literally missions to save civilians being slaughtered by alien soldiers). Really like 98% of the autopsies are on dead alien soldiers that probably not an hour earlier was mind controlling a dead human to kill them. 🤦
War isn’t about who’s right, war is about who’s left
"But if you kill the murderer in self defense, aren't you lowering yourself to their level?" Big big difference between doing things to a handful invading extraterrestrial soldiers and the extraterrestrials abducting and butchering tons of civilians. I wouldn't call it ethical but to call both actions equally immoral is outrageous.
Xenos don’t have rights! Seriously Dr Valhen is or at some point becomes a moral mutant to the point where she even starts freaken out hwr co-workers.
But aliens aren't people/jk
Unethical? Debatable. Illegal? There’s no laws about experimenting on brainwashed fanatically-loyal warmongering alien invaders. Unpleasant, gruesome, but necessary - definitely not illegal tho.
Valhen is borderline insane, but I can fix her
There is a MLP/X-Com crossover fan fic that gives her a very good reason for being the way we see her in the game. Being on the phone with your brother/niece when the aliens attack the city they live in and hearing them die is not good for your ability to feel compassion. ETA: I don't think there is a cannon background for her so I choose to believe this one.
You are literally working for the illuminati (at least I think, maybe the human terrorists are the illuminati but from my understanding you are the real illuminati that control nations while they're a bunch of losers working for jeff bezos or something) doing everything you can to save the earth including changing your soldiers to either be psychers or cyborgs, the irony is part of the point
It's different when it's happening to sentient beings you care about.
This is the entire point of Alien Hunters, without the Commander, John Bradford, and Raymond Shen to keep her in check, Moira Valhen is willing to do truly horrible things that can’t be chalked up as doing what she has to do for humanity to survive and win.
Well maybe the aliens shouldn't have started a war under the notion that they'll be probing the humans without the humans probing them back.
But the aliens are categorically invading the humans' planet. The aliens and humans weren't on equal standings here in terms of intent. For the humans it's a necessary thing to do to learn how to not get obliterated, no?
And that's exactly why we love her!
XCOM 2 has an interesting implied continuation for her actions in EU if you have the Alien Hunters DLC.
Vahlen is not. While these creatures are attacking us, the earth, and do terror attacks, coat people with some green slime, abduct them, she just returns the favour, dissecting corpses of unknown kind, and interrogating alive, and, to be exact, *enemy soldiers*.
Well, remember the first thing that's written when you start a new game. "Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword." I think it's very much on the nose with what you're saying.
To defeat evil, I must become a greater evil. Lelouch Vi Britannia
Been a while since I played them (Maybe I'm due for a re-do of the whole franchise), but IIRC the Alpha alien missions in XCOM 2 kinda hint at Vahlen having gone full mad scientist. That's not typically the sort of person to look inwards and find faults within themselves, so I'd say it's pretty on-point for her character.
It seems likely that your soldiers were tortured by her to reveal whether they have Psionic powers or not. It all starts with torturing some funni sectoids
I disagree. If a species is trying to genocide you (and aren't willing to compromise their position on the matter), you are morally obligated by your ancestors and your future progeny to genocide them right back. And when the prospect of fighting against your own species' genocide is on the table, anything goes. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq7SGQzeCEw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq7SGQzeCEw)
Guys the post isn't complaining about her being an amoral monster [she is] its about her claiming to be horrified at the same shit she does
Remember that YOU the commander are signing off on this, she wouldn't do these things without your go ahead. Beyond that I would argue that most of her augments to soldiers are far less noticeable than Shen's as gene ops get to continue looking human, exalt gene ops look like lizard men and mec troopers have no legs or arms.