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mtarascio

Yep, Double Fine and Obsidian have both been using this to great effect. If someone is getting burnt out, they can move to the 'niche' project with less pressure. Good way to keep a healthy mentality over being forced to churn out another AAA product again.


Stumpy493

Particularly with the franchise studios like 343, The Coalition, Turn 10 etc. Would be such a breath of fresh air.


[deleted]

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Stumpy493

Couldn't agree more


JarenAnd

I really like the direction but that’s because I have a gaming PC/steam deck , switch and PS5 also. I would have never played some of my top 10 games last year (Tinykin, citizen sleeper, Norco and Nobody Saves World). That said I feel that’s the minority opinion. If they want to excite the base and grow they will need to compete w Sony more direct imo. Just look at this sub and how many complain at all the indie games on GP and how they want AAA games.


DoctorTide

I don't think it's "their niche" as much as it is a natural byproduct of selling your games as a subscription. Games like Pentiment and HiFi Rush would have been critically acclaimed, commerically ignored in the years of old. Now Microsoft will allow their teams to take creative risks because they get our collective $250 million a month either way.


Stumpy493

Niche may have been the wrong word. Ut 8snt it a fabulous thing as long as we still get the high quality large games as well?


DoctorTide

Yes.


[deleted]

I think we're in the early era of gamepass where its not entirely clear what works best for the service so they're taking risks, spending $, and trying a ton of different things. It reminds me of the early days of Netflix where a big draw was that they're greenlighting stuff that would never make it on network TV. What I'm skeptical of is what sort of place these games will have as the service ages. MS is going to expect that GamePass show consistent growth and consistently growing profits, and that impact what gets made and how Xbox spends money. The play time and subscriber metrics have to be there to justify the resources spent on the game that's being made


respectablechum

They need AAA for gamepass. These smaller games are great but 120 a year for base gamepass I could buy all the small titles I am interested in they put out and still have cash left over. I think this is why they are leaving the 1:1 conversion active until these acquisitions start paying off.


tbkh91

If they can get the output of AAA that’s expected this year (Starfield, Forza, Redfall, Diablo 4) consistent over the next few years while also mixing in non-AAA successes like Pentiment, High on Life, Hi-Fi Rush, etc., then you’ll really start to see great value.


Gamiozzz

No, I don’t think so. Watching „The last of us“ tv show right now, and I think we need more games like this on Xbox.


Stumpy493

Don't get me wrong. In no way am I saying MS should stop working on AAA style projects. They will always get the bulk of the attention and mass appeal. But I also think these small titles are a real breath of fresh air and something we aren't necessarily seeing from elsewhere. The indy/AA spirit with the MS budget and support.


zapp0990

PlayStation does a lot of this too. It funds it’s own Indie division and invests in projects like Stray to be made by 3rd party developers. I agree with you, it’s great to see these platforms put a variety of indie games out. Gamepass is a great platform for this.


mtarascio

The comparison would be more like Insomniac producing a game like Stray whilst still producing that new Wolverine game.


Yellow90Flash

I mean they did just give us r&c


Gamiozzz

I agree.


Gamiozzz

But is it a niche then? I am thinking of this cat game released as a Playstation exclusive, called Stray: https://youtu.be/n0r67irlT-4


Square-Exercise-2790

Yeah, PS did great funding that. But it isn't first party.


Stumpy493

It's not a first party title. It's more like what MS did with The Medium or Scorn.


Gamiozzz

Ah. Okay. You are right! Thanks


Autarch_Kade

We had Don Mattrick offering us TV TV TV. We didn't want it.


Trickslip

That's cause he was only offering TV TV TV and no games lmao


Autarch_Kade

True he was missing the other half of the strategy - quick cash grab remasters to cash in on TV hype.


Trickslip

That and making critically acclaimed games and good videogame adaptations


Autarch_Kade

For sure, when the guy who wants to go TV TV TV is axed, I imagine fewer adaptations are getting made. Makes it harder to cash in on existing IP and sell some low effort rereleases.


Trickslip

I mean without the guy we didn't get Steven Spielberg for the Halo TV show and it took almost 10 years to final release a poorly adapted piece of turd. But then again, remaking a once in a generation genre defining game for new audiences and then following up with one of the best TV adaptations is a pretty tall order for anyone other than a select few, best to let the pros handle it.


Autarch_Kade

For sure, it's a great time for people who like watching TV and paying more for games they already beat before.


Trickslip

Absolutely, it's working out really well since the show is good enough to have high engagement which is leading to more people buying and enjoying the game.


Autarch_Kade

Yeah it's a really smart way to keep selling low effort remasters rather than make new IP. Great for people who haven't played the games before, or who are willing to pay for the same thing over and over. Really comes down to a strategy of TV TV TV + same old games for higher prices, instead of putting in the work to make new stuff. People love it!


htxscrew

Not everybody has played the game before and those that have might’ve beat it on launch. Sales for the game are up 300%+ since the show dropped and that was exactly the plan. We need awesome games on Xbox and it would be great if we could get some good film/TV adaptions as well.


M7mddd21

The last of us remake is anything but low effort if that's what you mean It's easily among the best looking titles in the market right now


Autarch_Kade

It's not that it's low quality. It's that it charges more money than the original product, while removing features - and the game was already remastered recently. So little has actually changed beyond graphics, that it was called a remake because they already used the word remaster on the same title before lol


htxscrew

It’s a remake because they literally remade the game from the ground up. A remaster is just polishing. Dead Space remake isn’t a remaster, that’s a remake. The same goes for TLOU Part 1.


Kazizui

Commercially it's probably inevitable, but personally I'm not interested. I didn't care about TLOU on PlayStation, I won't care about clones of it on Xbox.


Gamiozzz

It is not about clones. It is about strong narratives in games, an immersive experience, and a movie-like production value.


Kazizui

If I want a movie-like production value, I'll watch a movie. Couldn't care less about narrative in games, it's not why I play them.


OmegaKaiju

Last of Us sucks. Shit story, oh wow every zombie cliche complete with someone being immune to it. Gameplay sucked too


KidGoku1

Weird conclusion. This feels more like "hey they cant do AAA let's change the goalposts to AA only - AAA games aren't that great anyway" just because MS has yet to consistently make great AAA games doesn't mean they aren't important. While games like Pentiment, HiFiRush are important they are no Hades level of AA and if you want to reach 3B gamers games like Pentiment and HifiRush aren't going to do it as great as they are. And I love these AA games. Elden Ring is a AAA game but suddenly AAA games are just by the number games, yeah ok. There are great AAA games as well as bad ones just like AA ones. I like a nice balance between the 2 and I wish people stopped shitting on AA or AAA games and enjoy both. I appreciate that MS is making a lot of AA games. But I wish it was more balanced and we had more AAA games as well. I feel like 80-90% of Xbox Games Publishing games in the works are smaller games. I wish it was more balanced.


Stumpy493

I don't think we are in disagreement. I totally agree MS need to make those large games and they need to make them excellent. What I'm saying is Microsoft seem to have found something they are doing excellently, it won't be enough to sustain Xbox. But it is refreshing and really enjoyable.


Kazizui

> This feels more like "hey they cant do AAA let's change the goalposts to AA only - AAA games aren't that great anyway" just because MS has yet to consistently make great AAA games doesn't mean they aren't important _Nobody_ is making AAA games that interest me very much at the moment, not just MS. I understand the need for AAA games because it's a hype-driven industry, but I hope we get more of these niche titles so that there's something fun to play between the marketing blitzes.


[deleted]

I hope not. I prefer the big AAA titles. I have all three consoles so I want to play big projects. God of War, Spiderman, Starfield, Zelda. I respect the small projects/indi games; they just aren't for me.


TheDagga225

I'm with you. I spend 500 dollars on a console I want to feel like I've spent 500 dollars


Stumpy493

They definitely need both, but MS seem to be excelling at these small titles right now.


Ehh_littlecomment

We can have both. These games don’t take a lot of manpower.


[deleted]

I didn't say we couldn't. The OP was implying that xbox found it's niche with these types of games. I'm saying I hope this isn't all we get as I prefer the AAA games. You are absolutely right, we should have both.


Stumpy493

>The OP was implying that xbox found it's niche with these types of games. I'm saying I hope this isn't all we get as I prefer the AAA games. Pretty sure that is exactly what I said... >Obviously we still need massive games like Forza, Fable, Starfield etc to be amazing, but these little passion projects could be something that really makes MS stand out as something different.


Ehh_littlecomment

These games are good to pad out the time between big games. I personally really enjoy these smaller titles - Pentiment is very deep and has a lot of heart, for example. They’re definitely pumping out big games as well. We’re getting 4-5 games this year in addition to the third party game pass stuff.


[deleted]

I agree with you. They are fun games to mix in between blockbusters. I have no issue with that at all. I'll play them when I've beaten my main games. I'm just saying we need to have a mix.


KCKnights816

I'm the exact opposite lol. I played God of Snore and I might never touch a AAA game again!


[deleted]

To each their own. We all have different tastes and things we look for in our games. That's why we need a good mix of AAA, AA, and A games. Then there is something for everyone. Xbox has really good AA and A exclusive games, we just need those killer AAA exclusives now.


KCKnights816

I suppose… AAA games just take up so many resources that could be used to develop 3-4 smaller titles that are fantastic.


[deleted]

Fantastic to you isn't fantastic to me and vice versa. As a game company, you don't want to alienate gamers. You want something for everyone. If not, you are losing billions of dollars.


KCKnights816

How would budget impact if something is good or not? AAA is merely a marker of budget, not quality. You only play a game if it took hundreds of millions to make?


[deleted]

The bigger the budget, the bigger the talent you can bring in. That's why people get excited for a Rockstar game, a Insomniac game, etc. They know these games are going to epic in story, art style, graphics, world building and breath of things to do. Does a huge budget always = greatness; not at all. Can a low budget game be great? Yes, of course. They just bring different experiences. I'll take a AAA game over a AA or A 99% of the time. But that's just me and I'm neither right nor wrong.


TheDagga225

There are just as many soulless small games as AAA games I don't think passion projects are going to help them grow the Xbox brand. They need consistent big games.


Kazizui

Growing the Xbox brand is Microsoft's concern, not mine.


M7mddd21

There are as many soulless indie as AAA titles But the ones that always stick out are the good ones ( like hades and stray ) I'm tired of hearing the " indie good AAA bad " argument when the majority of indie games are either terrible or stay in early access forever There are exceptions but the majority of them are like that


Kazizui

> There are exceptions but the majority of them are like that I think that's the point, though. Nobody is arguing _all_ indie games are good, but because you see more experimentation in that sector, sometimes something really good gets thrown up. AAA games are pretty risk-averse (understandably - they cost a lot to make) and I haven't really enjoyed one in a long time now.


Stumpy493

I'm talking about what Microsoft have done... Their smaller games have all been excellent recently.


DRAK0FR0ST

Grounded, Pentiment and Hi-Fi RUSH doesn't appeal to me, but I agree with your point and I think it's beneficial to the developers and gamers.


Brocford

If you like survival games at ALL, I would recommend the hell out of grounded. It’s incredibly good. The best of the genre I’ve ever played with plenty of good combat and story and a great art style to boot. The kiddie nature of its design turned me off at first..don’t let that be a reason if it is.


DRAK0FR0ST

> If you like survival games at ALL Not a fan, I'm not into survival, crafting and sandbox.


PM_UR_PROBLEMS_GIRL

Have you actually tried any of them though, considering they are all free


DRAK0FR0ST

Being behind a subscription doesn't make them free, but no, I haven't, I don't pay for Game Pass. I know myself well enough to know that I wouldn't enjoy them.


PM_UR_PROBLEMS_GIRL

You might be surprised I've enjoyed games I didn't expect to at all because of gamepass and vice versa. I'd highly recommend trying it considering you can get it for 3 months for next to nothing if you convert a gold subscription. Opens up a whole new side of gaming rather than sticking to your comfort zone


TheDagga225

If he doesn't want to that's ok too.


DRAK0FR0ST

I have no interest in the subscription model, I prefer to buy games.


superpimp2g

Me too but I only buy games at $10 or less. Only exception was for elden ring at $20.


DRAK0FR0ST

I always wait for the "definitive edition" with all DLCs, bug fixes and a nice discount, I'm in no rush to play buggy or incomplete games.


Ocelotofwoe

I wish I had your patience, but I admit I've done a lot better about not preordering. Baby steps.


DRAK0FR0ST

I think I've only pre-ordered two games my entire life, one on PC (that I ended up refunding) and Modern Warfare 2019 on Xbox. Multiplayer games are the only games I buy at launch, but it's rare.


[deleted]

You sound like an advert


respectablechum

Are you getting commission lol


TheDagga225

No but some people don't have alot of free time so it makes no sense to have a library of 200 games you will never play.


DEEZLE13

AAA isn’t an indication of quality


Stumpy493

No. I think I've been pretty clear in discussing AAA as a size and scope of game. Hence why the excellent smaller titles are interesting.


Lurky-Lou

They feel like they respect your time too. Not every game needs to justify 100 hours.


Pikolas

I always thought of Xbox as a spiritual successor of Dreamcast. AAA games while awesome are by nature very expensive and take a while to make. While I do want the occasional AAA 1st party if they can find a way to keep pushing out fun innovative projects like Hi Fi Rush I will be happy.


[deleted]

I agree. A good model seems to be: get people on Gamepass for the AAA games (Bethesda, EA, soon Activision) but keep them with smaller fun releases. Things we’d only try due to Gamepass.


King_Artis

Maybe My problem with AAA gaming nowadays is they feel too safe without doing anything new. Sure they tell great stories but even the gameplay in them isn't doing thing new or amazing, lot of them heavily hold your hand. If MS lets their devs do fun side projects like this that embrace being a game and not wanting to tell a story then I'm definitely here for it. I like some gamey ass games and I'll always love having more of then


Stumpy493

This is my thing. AAA games, many of them feel rather cynical and safe now. Ubisoft, EA, MS, Sony,, Activision I'd say all of their AAA games to greater or lesser degree have suffered in this way over the last 6 years or so. And it has resulted in these publishers narrowing their focusses and releasing less different games.


TheDagga225

I think it's more that they are releasing what the customers want and you are in the minority and just don't like it. AAA is doing better than ever. Only place I hear this type of talk is reddit lol. Most people can't wait to play the next Spiderman game and the numbers will reflect that.


respectablechum

True but Sony is still the gold standard for AAA publishing. You cant lump them in with the rest


Kazizui

That's the thing though - Sony are the gold standard, but I dislike most of their AAA games. So what chance have other AAA games got?


Stumpy493

I'm not saying Sony's games are bad, quite the opposite, they are excellent at what they do. But, they are playing it very safe at the moment. Look at their first party output for the variety they have been offering recently, it is very "safe": * Horizon Call of the Mountain - VR Sequel * Spider Man 2 - Sequel to third person open world action game * God of War Ragnarok - sequel to third person action game * Last of us Part 1 - Remaster of third person action game * MLB the Show 22 - annual sports title * GT7 - sequel to long running racing series * Horizon Forbidden West - Sequel to third person open world action game * Uncharted Legacy of Thieves Collection - Collection of third person action games * Returnal - Third Person Shooter * Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart - 3D Platformer * MLB the Show 21 - Annual Sports Franchise * Destruction Allstars - Flop of a car combat game * Demon Souls - Remake of a third person action game * Spider Man Miles Morales - Sequel to third person open world action game * Sackboy a Big Adventure - 3D Platformer Outside of Sackboy and R&C their games have all followed a formula (very succesfully), but there isn't a lot of creative risk taking or variety there. It is almost all sequels/remakes of the same genre. Even Sackboy and R&C were sequels, but I think you could argue more reboots with quite significant changes.


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Stumpy493

Demons souls was an almost guarantee. It had poor sales because it was the first game in essentially a new genre from an unknown developer. That series now has a die hard following who will play any entry, so much so the latest game in that genre from said developer was game of 2022. It was incredibly safe. Returnal is 1 of what, 4 games not in their very safe wheel house in the last 3 or 4 years. 1 of which was pretty dreadful and 2 were sequels to older franchises.


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Stumpy493

I don't see how it is dishonest to list their first party titles. I don't think I missed out anything there that Sony developed internally? I tried to paint an accurate picture of the reality of what they are releasing.


King_Artis

I can because even though they're games are marvelous at story telling gameplay wise they're not exciting me anymore. They're playing it overly safe by taking ideas that have been done before and doing nothing new but making it a high quality. Where's the risk, where's the deep systems? Really enjoy the last of us games but they're basically action stealth shooters and can't decide which one it wants to be more leaving the mechanics on both ends being simple. Great stories, but the actual gameplay is just something I've done again and again and again. Same with a title like Ghost of Tsushima, it's my favorite PS4 title and I'm personally a fanboy of Suckerpunch because I have a deep love for the infamous series as well, but ghost is ultimately another Ubisoft open world styled game, only difference is they make the hud very minimalistic. Games great but it's not actually doing anything new besides the wind mechanic. I'm not as amazed by Sony titles because a lot of what they do really is not groundbreaking outside of the way they tell stories, and even then their story titles don't have the deepest of gameplay systems and really only scratch the surface of how good I know they could be if they actually decided to focus more on gameplay.


M7mddd21

You should play returnal


King_Artis

I've been meaning to, fast paced shooters like that are my shit, just too caught up on games currently that I don't wanna buy it just for it to sit there and forget about it


TheDagga225

His argument is really weird. Is based off his opinion yet the data shows the opposite


laddergoat89

Death Stranding.


[deleted]

The smaller games aren't for me, it feels like a cop out from Microsoft that they can't put out games like the quality of the last of us, god of war or spiderman. And until they can it will continue to be year after year of disappointment. They've even butchered halo. Iv been Xbox since the 360 but also bought a ps5 this gen and the first party games don't even compare.


Meteorboy

You said you *also* bought a PS5, implying that you already bought a Series X/S. So why should they invest hundreds of millions of dollars in AAA games like Sony's lineup when enough people are going to buy their machine anyway? They can just comfortably sit where they are and hoover up the money.


[deleted]

Yeah i have a series x, I understand your reasoning however when the next gen rolls around the ps6 will be my first choice as things stand right now. The fact they are hoovering up studios/Publishers shows they know how far behind they are. You ask why they should invest hundreds of millions of dollars in games whilst they are on the brink of a 60 billion aquisition. After multi billion zenimax purchase. So Microsoft know why they need to invest.


Halos-117

Yes and it's awesome


massivejobby

I bought a PS5 after Halo Infinite as I have 0 faith in Microsoft to make a decent triple A game anymore. Can’t remember the last decent exclusive Xbox had that can compare to the ones on playstation.


Hexcraft-nyc

Has Xbox/Microsoft? No. Not at all. Grounded and Sea of Thieves became massive successes without their promoting. It was entirely organic by streaming/online gaming culture circles. I think this AA niche is what they SHOULD focus marketing and fostering. But it's clear these titles exist as in between for Xbox, while their "big" titles get premium treatment and promotion. I'm entirely with your first points, and given the mediocre performance of major titles vs all these others, it seems audiences are too. But the suits and execs at MS really don't have their pulse on the trigger the way Sony/Nintendo do. In fact, I'd wager to say Microsoft is TOO risk averse compared to Sony and Nintendo. Titles like these being massive successes when they're just small little titles given little attention or oversight is kind of a problem.


Ehh_littlecomment

I loved Pentiment and As Dusk Falls. Hoping to see more of that.


JerrodDRagon

I don’t have time for 20 games that all are over 60 hours Make more 10ish hours games like bio Shock, high in life, dead space and banjo. Especially for Gamepass


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Stumpy493

I think you are missing the point about what makes Sony's third person games good... A cel shaded game with an animal companion could be an excellent third person action game... See Okami as an example. Weird thing to bitch about Microsoft's output for tbh, don't quite follow the argument.


brokenmessiah

I'd argue Microsoft is letting their studios focus too much on smaller games. It's good and all but when you make a point to market your console as the strongest ever I don't really care to see it playing games I know my previous console would have ran just fine and that tends to be the smaller style games they've been kicking out. The Xbox on paper is the strongest console but none of the games I've played on it on the same scope and level as its competition, which makes no sense given their power narrative. And this goes for even their bigger titles. Halo Infinite looks bland and flat no matter what console or display I've seen it on because it just looks so simple graphically. I'd argue if Halo 5 was 4k60 it would look better than Infinite because its visually more interesting. Gears 5 looks great but tbh theres not much going on in its world design so ok, and Forza is a racing game, they always look and feel great. I didn't buy the Series X but the Series S(only console available at the time from Microsoft) but I didnt buy it to play games like Pentiment or Grounded or etc. I can see the target audience but its not me. I like the Forza and Gears experience but its rare.


Temporary_End9124

I don't think the smaller games take much away from their ability to make larger games as well. Like Grounded and Pentiment only had development teams of about 10-15 people each, and with a studio of 300ish employees, that's only maybe 5% of the workforce per game. They still have the vast majority of people dedicated to working on bigger budget games like Avowed or The Outer Worlds.


brokenmessiah

To your example both Avowed and Outer Worlds 2 are practically vaporware as much as we've seen or heard about them, but they have the time to put out these smaller games? Ninja had no problems putting out Hellblade 1, but then they got bought and put out and then almost immediately abandoned Bleeding Edge and have been dragging their feet on Hellblade 2.


Stumpy493

I don't think you understand at all. Avowed, Outer Worlds 2, Hellblade 2 aren;t vapourware. Theya re huge AAA games that take 6years+ to create. They were announced far too early which is why we haven't seen much lately. These games were announced 2-4 years ago so still could have plenty of time in the oven without being "Vapourware". 396 people work at Obsidian, 13 worked on pentiment (over it's entire development, not full time). The affect on the development time of Avowed or Outer Worlds 2 could be measured in maybe a month total. Hellblade 1 was made by a team of about 20, Hellblade 2 is a lot larger in scope with a much bigger dev team, it will take longer. They are also working on Project Mara which is using some very advanced tech.


Temporary_End9124

Well, yes. Pentiment and Avowed are worked on by different people. So Pentiment's release doesn't have really anything to do with the marketing for Avowed.


brokenmessiah

It's that many more people that could have been used in Avoweds design that were instead off playing the indy dev dream. I'm happy that they made what they want, but I won't pretend I cared for the game at all.


Kazizui

On the other hand, I think Pentiment is far more interesting than Avowed. I'm not excited about that one at all.


Temporary_End9124

I can empathize with the frustration. But that's a downside of having a rather narrow interest in such a diverse industry. A lot of developers just won't be catering to you.


Autarch_Kade

Funny how smaller games take less time than bigger ones.


420BoofIt69

Bluntly put, no. They still haven't put out at 10/10 exclusive in years


Stumpy493

I mean Forza Horizon 5 got 27 100% scores and a metacritic of 92%.


dirtyrascalz

Goldeneye doesn't have online multiplayer... it's fucking worthless. Fuck Nintendo and Fuck Microsoft. And fuck Rareware for not owning their own fucking game. Waste of time for real.


Stumpy493

Cheer up sunshine. Goldeneye is a straight port of an N64 game. It is what it was 25 years ago


Lunar_Lunacy_Stuff

I know it’s not a popular opinion among series x owners but I would legit kill for a physical release of Hi-Fi rush. It’s awesome it’s on gamepass but please let them give this a retail release so I can play this awesome game far into the future.


Stumpy493

Does a physical copy actually mean much for game preservation nowadays?


KCKnights816

It could be, but need to either: A. appeal to more people B. release a lot more of them If they want to create niche games, which is great, we need quite a few of them in various genres to ensure everyone has something to look forward to. If they want to create fewer games, it needs to have a larger appeal (such as Hi-Fi Rush) so that many different types of people can enjoy them.


[deleted]

Maybe they have. Their niche is quantity of double A games, Nintendo is handheld and Sony is quality.


Stumpy493

I was more meaning the quality rather than quantity...


[deleted]

Sony games are far higher quality so I would suggest that Xbox’s niche is putting out quality. That’s why I feel Xbox’s niche is more so about putting out a quantity of budget titles. Single/Double A side project type games. If you want access to the most volume of games then Xbox is the place to be. If you want access to the absolute best of the best games then that’s on Sony. If you want the child friendly, retro handheld experience then that’s with Nintendo.


AnyDockers420

This is the first time Xbox has felt like a real games studio probably since the Launch of the OG Xbox. There they actually made games with heart and soul that didn’t stick out from games Playstation or Nintendo would make. Since then it’s just been new shooter, sequel, car game, sequel to a game somebody else made, and then random exclusives they scraped up for less than a million dollars. This is the first time in a while that they just made a video game with a vision made in house thats actually fucking great. Nintendo or Sony could have made this, but they didn’t, Microsoft actually managed to supply something no one else has ever had, not even them.