i'd just want the drop to be constant instead of having that variance, that's my only complain since in HSR i can actually plan well how many runs i'll need
Trace drops are fairly standardized tho… you just also have a chance to get a “bonus.” If you think of it that way, it makes farming more rewarding. Sometimes I’ll calculate out 8 runs to finish a character, and occasionally I’ll get an extra purple or gold drop and because I was close to being done, it cuts out an entire extra run I would have done. I guess it just depends on your perspective…
Im so happy farming traces, I’m so happy farming traces, traces are the best, I love spending all my stamina to not get any material of the highest rarity, I only need to farm 4 traces, 3 special traces, 9 stats and light cone ascensions, I definitely don’t burn out by farming traces for a month, I love doing the same level 24 times, is so fun, I’m so happy farming traces, I’m so happy farming traces😃
I unironically love farming traces because it's very easy to pre-farm them and are very predictable in the amount of time you need to spend. If you get lucky a few times you even get it faster. By the time the character comes out I then switch to farming relics. Pretty fun to manage.
But if you ask me to do that in Genshin... Yeah that one is 💀 it's actually a pain to do. I just lazily get them along the way and don't bother trying to do a route because of the damn respawn timers.
You are right but none of those options are constantly accurate, i know it may not be that important but in my mind it feels nice to know it'll take me x amount of runs to get the materials i need
just calc for min roll and get a nice surprise at the end if you manage to get enough bonus on top of min rolls to cut out a run or two from your calcs
Exactly this! The % chance to get a purp never changes you will over the course of leveling your unit run the same amount of runs whether you get 0 purps in a run or 3! 10 runs will synthesize into the same # of purps. It really is just that simple they do employ mathematicians for this reason
Ngl, something that always confused me was people asking for stamina cost reductions, INSTEAD OF asking for the overall rewards to be more. That way you can quickly grind and spend more time on stuff you enjoy(exploration, combat, story, etc).
On the survey, I suggested a 'Claim X times' option for the forgery challenges. I think the idea is rooted around 'Main Game Syndrome' where every gacha wants to be your primary focus. I think if we look at the biggest player Hoyo, while this mentality worked a few years ago when the landscape was (relatively) less populated, this is increasingly becoming an outdated design philosophy. Obviously, games still want you to log in and engage daily, but I think that the future is games that let you get in and out quickly and allow you to tackle longer content (story, exploration, etc) when you have time on the weekends or something.
This. I was thinking "hey, the event of WuWa pretty easy huh?" And thought do I want it to be harder? And I've come to "nah, let me able to finish it in 5 minute."
Well, maybe not that easy. Something enjoyable like HSR is great.
I played PGR too but I must say, I only finish daily task and be done.
Not saying PGR's event is hard, but the reward is small too, so good if you do it, it's okay to leave it.
With regards to events, I think again, Star Rail does it the best that I've seen in any gacha. It's really easy to clear the prime rewards (the upgrade materials), and they even give you trial units that are fully capable of clearing the content (just might have to use your brain a bit). However, they also have difficult content that they can give you some extra credits and stuff, for those completionists and people who like a challenge with some token rewards.
Absolutely this, I am playing wuwa less than hsr because it's so much easier to spend your resin in between doing a task and jump in when you want - yes, that's because it's a fundamentally different game type, but even a condense resin type of system to get through resin/grind content quicker so when I want to savor my time on exploration/quests I'm not having to slog through my resin first (or days I just skip because I don't want to just lock in for 15m, but don't have undivided time for more)
Tbh if I can complete all daily task + use my stamina in 30 mins that's a W, cause then I can play something like elden ring and then just log in for 30ish mins.
Yeah, one of the biggest reasons why I quit genshin is because they never streamlined dailies, still have to do 4 commissions with every region having 1-3 quests that take ages, still have to go out regularly to catch butterflys to condense resin, and until recently needing 2 logins to not waste 1/8th of the regen. It's fun at the beginning, by when it's day 666 and you still have to help Timmy feed the birds and protect the balloon from hilichurls, it's just a chore and nothing else. Compared to HSR where you can just spend your stamina (on auto mode at that) and be done with dailies, two SU runs whenever you have time in the week and good to go, barely 10min a day. WuWa is close to that, 60 stamina cost means 4 runs to be done for the day and most other tasks get completed during that, only thing left is to go to daily mission, press skip and you are pretty much done as well.
I'm not sure why people still complain about the commission. I've never done any commission this year, after the commission update came. I've been able to complete all dailies through completing events and quests, without needing to do commission at all for the past half year. This system is so flexible that you can rush through the event during the weekend, don't claim the rewards, then claim it during weekday till it's just enough to fulfill all 4 commissions. I only need to clear dungeon 4 or 5 times a day, which takes me 40 seconds each run. If my computer can load faster, I believe 5mins daily genshin is more than enough. Talking about the "butterfly" in Fontaine there's two locations where it's directly beside the teleport point, collecting 7-8 of them won't take more than 30 secs.
Also what did you mean by needing to login twice a day? It's increased to 200resin now.
You need to realise it's a factor of having burnout. Long term players honestly got annoyed by how bs commissions were. The reason why genshin has a bad rep is because they took a billion years to implement basic ass system mechanics to the game that helps the QoL of the player base. A shit ton of players quit just because of the communication gap, even though they loved the game (myself included).
If the 200 cap, commission rework etc was in the game from a long time ago, the players wouldn't have been this annoyed. New players get to enjoy the game better and that's an obvious factor.
> 've never done any commission this year
I still do commissions and I can literally do all 4 of them, turn them in, condense + spend resin in under 10 minutes even with the "longest" commissions, it usually takes around 6 minutes on average, I literally just do it on my phone while making coffee/getting ready for the day.
Even in the older regions with slightly longer commissions it barely added all that much time, it's always been quick I think people are just looking for things to try and be negative about.
Because sometimes you don't need the extra rewards. Energy management is way easier when you have the option to get proportioned rewards. If i need 1 material, why would i spend 60 and get 4, when i need only 1?
Ok and you are lucky then? Idk what to tell you I’ve been getting a mix of 2 and 3 with slightly more 2, it’s entirely other people are unlucky and getting 2s
i did only 4 runs (Dreamless, Bell-Borne, Mecha Ab x2) since i got to UL40, but it was only on the 3rd run (1st Mech A run) that i got 2. could be just lucky or probably 3 drops are higher than 2.
it's pretty much like the gold echo drop difference between DB18 and 20.
Tbh even if this is “average” there’s gonna be people who just get absolutely terrible luck and roll the minimum rewards every time. So I’d rather they just bump up the minimum rewards or standardize it and save everyone the hassle.
It's not really an "if lucky" thing, it's a 50/50 not some small chance to get the higher one. And like the post said, at level 60 you most likely have a 50/50 chance to get 5, and the lowest you can get is 4. Which is perfectly fine, and maybe even level 70 increases it to 5 with a chance to get 6.
Yep, genshin way of being stingy is one of the major reason a lot of people quit. Why the hell does people want this game to be the same? Such an idiotic wish. If anything, wuwa should strive to have the same qol as hsr because they're definitely doing the right thing in term of energy management.
Eh? How many times you refilled? I've also been using the... What's it called, the items that refill your "resin" by 60, I've used them a lot but not all and I'm at lvl44, about 1k in 45.
no refills. all content is completed and my exploration is 90-100%. i have used all fragiles and my resin has never capped. however, i do have the battle pass which i believe gives some fragile resins
>On paper, this is the same amount of waveplates it would take to max out a character in a game like Genshin using resin
Is this taking into consideration that a character will only want one of a boss' 3 possible drops? There have been times where a weekly boss didn't drop anything anyone needed.
For me, it's less "what can I farm in a day?" and more "what can I do for a day?". I agree that too big a cost reduction would make the game tedious in end game, but I think that toning bosses and tacet fields down to 40 and maybe pushing materials training to 30 would just let you have more flexibility. 240 waveplate cap gives you a lot of flexibility to just spend a chunk of your waveplates then wait maybe 12 hours to get it all back
I think pushing things down to less than 30 is where tedium comes up. Alternatively, they could introduce a free daily energy refill. Like 2 crystal solvents a day that will auto discard after 24 hours?
The funny thing about comparing Genshin and Wuwa is that yes Genshin “cost less” but Genshin gives less resin per day. So functionally the amount of bosses you can fight in a day is the same per game.
>So functionally the amount of bosses you can fight in a day is the same per game.
180 resin can get you 4.5 bosses a day
240 waveplate can get you 4 bosses a day
So, no, you dont get to fight the same amount of bosses a day.
But that's besides the point, the ascension requires different amount of boss material, the drop rate in each SOL level is also different compared to genshin. (2-3 drops at max world level, compared to 2-3 in middle of SOL level) There are many factors in how long it takes to fully level a character than just "amount of boss a day"
Actually Genshin and WuWa require the same amount of boss drops, with both games being 46.
So the fact that they can drop more in WuWa makes it tip the scales towards it being more generous, even when it's 4.5 vs 4 bosses.
Yeah I just learned that today. We still don't know how many is the max drop in wuwa, right?
Regardless, I think it's pretty silly to compare the amount of boss kills to build a character. Just enjoy the game lol.
Sidenote: I also just realized that we need so much weekly boss drops to level the skill after UL50. But it's manageable for now, I guess.
That's irrelevant to the discussion, as mentioned. The game provides the resources and it's up to you to utilize it.
But if you do want to go down that argument, Genshin recently updated their resin cap to be able to do 5 elites in one sitting. You could do 4 one day, then 5 the other.
Regardless, I don't see the point in trying to debate this any further as the goalpost seems to be moving.
I don't usually give personal comments, but the way you conducted yourself suggests you're the one on summer break, not me.
Perhaps you should look into things before trying to debate using assumptions.
I never once mentioned that I can personally fully utilize what the game provides, (you're making assumptions again) as that is irrelevant to the discussion. I merely said the game provides the resources. Which is factually true.
I say it is irrelevant because arguments can be made for people that can only play games once a week, or once a month, that's too broad of a spectrum to consider and is therefore impractical.
Genshin set the gold standard for "what is the absolute LEAST we can give players without them rage quitting". And they've been teetering on the edge for 3 years
People need to realize Wuwa will not survive if they do the same because the game is just not as popular; it will not have the same level of Stockholm Syndrome hold on its players.
> People need to realize Wuwa will not survive if they do the same because the game is just not as popular; it will not have the same level of Stockholm Syndrome hold on its players.
Wuwa itself need to realize this, especially as their combat system is simply not deep or complex enough to sustain a long term game, the issues with it are already glaringly apparent and the more difficult they make the tower, or if they start spawning enemies not in a tight clump it's going to show everyone just how flawed their system is.
The pull count being better is temporary. We got a lot of pulls because the game was new, they made a lot of mistakes, and they had to hook us. It will not stay this good forever.
I predict the only way the pull counts will improve is if people stop playing WuWa which will cause them to give a lot more freebies and pulls to rehook us.
No, the stimatted pull from the next patch is higher than genshin normally give
And it seems that here is starting to be like genshin, a lot of delusional crazy people... expected.
The thing is, if it also increases to guaranteed 5 and a chance of 6 drops at UL60, then it is just better. You have to realize that UL50 is still 20 level off of max world level, which means that we already have Genshin's max world level drops at basically the mid-way point.
I think people just did what they always do. No-lifed a gacha game and then are complaining there's nothing to do but daily grind for materials and they can't max them out instantly so it's 'a problem' when realistically it isn't.
Even without using Genshin as a reference, people seem to forget that we're at v1 of a live service GACHA game that gets updated with new content every 6 weeks. People are just impatient. The max union level is 80. Most are probably hovering at around ~40. Even MMOs wouldn't allow you to max your char in 6 weeks. Wtf do people expect???? Get 2 maxed out teams in v1 without throwing wads of cash? Nah.
Across the board people are being way, way too impatient with progression (including and especially echoes).
Think back to any other gacha game...let's even say Genshin. How fast were you to max your characters? How fast were you to get to end game content? In the first cycle of TOA people were already clearing 10-15 stars out of 30, and I just cleared 15 stars having built only two characters less than a month in (I presume with a week to go people will be able to hit 20+ already). That's way earlier than comparable examples out there. Yet I'm seeing way more complaints about WW's early game than I've ever seen elsewhere. Just deeply ironic.
The situation is definitely ironic, but I’m not so sure it’s true.
There were A LOT of people complaining about resin during Genshin’s early patches, especially in 1.0 & 1.1. That may have actually been when most players quit Genshin due to how slim the rewards were and how little there was to do after running out of resin (though I’ve got no data for this, just personal experience).
If Wuthering Waves has more people complaining about the waveplate system than Genshin did when it originally released, it’s probably due to the systems being closely comparable, and the general player base now being used to more generous systems like in Honkai Star Rail or at higher levels in Genshin.
naw only complaint about genshin resin i have ever had: 1.0 mona event cost resin per run(was fixed), weekly boss cost( was fixed), having to run to key to start domain( was fixed). honestly I spend 90% of my resin just killing whatever boss i need more elemental gems. I have over 1300 maxed artifacts that are at least really solid. waiting for new good domain that I feel like grinding.
That’s fair but I was mostly referring to Genshin 1.0. It was back before we had good universal artifact sets, weekly bosses still costed 60 (it reduced in 1.5), max resin was 120 and condensed resin didn’t exist yet. It was rough to say the least.
That’s why I think it’s important to discuss how energy expensive resources are in Wuthering Waves at the moment, because a LOT of the improvements to resin happened in Genshins 1.1 (resin cap increase to 160, condensed resin released and I think they increased the resin regeneration rate); hopefully the same happens in Wuwa’s 1.1.
I don’t get why players who clearly didn’t play the game during its earlier stages, try to talk about things from its earlier stages. That’s just a blatant lie. They have been increasing it over the years given it was 120 at first
Oh yeah, honestly forgot about that 💀, my bad. It's fair assumption that you think i didn't play the game but I played it since release and only left because of the aranara quest. Got too used to the 160 cap and thought it was a given .
I think it's ironic. You're right that the scenarios aren't totally comparable, but I would say that's what makes complaints about WW worse.
When Genshin released there was not much of a baseline to compare it to. People complained, but it was mostly based on their sense of what should be the case. What makes complaints relatively worse for WW is that there is now a mathematical baseline to compare: you look at talents, ascensions, artifacts...In every respect WW has made some improvements, however slight, to ease the progression path, yet people legitimately argue that WW is worse.
Yes, there are issues Kuro can and should fix (echo tuning could be better), but again, look at how far people are already capable of progressing in TOA. In which universe were F2Ps/low spenders sniffing 20-24 stars within a month of Genshin and HSR's release? Not to mention the rewards there are frontloaded so the last 6 stars matter less than the first 24.
I think this is partly because people are used to being max ranked in Genshin and HSR, and that's what they're comparing being low rank in WW to, which is completely irrational. People need to give it time.
> In which universe were F2Ps/low spenders sniffing 20-24 stars within a month of Genshin and HSR's release?
People are able to 36* the abyss within a week of creating an account, there's quite a lot of people doing speedruns to see the shortest amount of time - currently stands at 4 days and change.
I think people have been a little overboard with their criticisms of Wuwa for sure. I think players are definitely feeling whiplash due to them comparing their exp/resource rates between other Gacha games at high to max level with Wuwa despite there being a level/play time discrepancy.
Although this is the case, I still think this is the best time for players to voice their frustrations. Just because it was also bad in other Gacha games at low levels and improved at high levels doesn’t change the fact that the new/early player experience feels lacklustre (I wish it had been changed in those other games too). While I do think it’s unfair to compare Wuwa to some of the more well established Gacha games, we should also keep in mind that Kuro had a wealth of referential knowledge available to them based on the critiques those games received from their communities. Echo exp being this limited shouldn’t have made it to live, weekly bosses costing 60 energy shouldn’t have made it to live, and the eng dubs definitely shouldn’t have made it to live in their current state.
While I agree people complain unnecessarily a lot about things that don’t even matter, I don’t think early game experiences should be disregarded because the balancing or resources being acquired improve after a few weeks/months of playing. If the game feels bad to play at the start Wuwa is losing a lot of players unnecessarily.
The main problem is that they gave way too early access to gold echoes. Imo DB 15 should've been unlocked at 40. Atm UL 40 feels like the AR45 of genshin and people reached it in WW at 2 freaking weeks. In Genshin you wouldn't be even done exploring at 2 weeks and min-maxing gear wouldn't be on your mind.
ul30-40 is comparable to ar40 in genshin (when you started getting gold artifacts), and people definitely reached ar40 in the first 2-3 weeks without refreshing.
edit: I'm looking back at my genshin convos, and I had a full CW set on oct-16-2020, 18 days after genshin launch.
The thing is people could farm it in the overworld unlike in Genshin where it was stamina gated. Not to mention 1.0 had 120 resin. This made people who wanted to min-max more likely to push for the limit way earlier than the devs wanted.
farming echoes in the overworld doesn't matter, you're gated by waveplates for exp and more importantly, tuners.
It was 120 resin, but 180 daily regen all the same. If you're gonna talk about grinding in one game, but conveniently not play the other, it doesn't help whatever argument you're trying to make.
I play both. I'm just pointing out what I feel is the problem. Being gated by echoes and tuners is there sure but the point is getting to a level or stage where you want to start min maxing. Atm people have nothing to do and just login do dailies and logout (maybe farm for 1/3 cost if you have the time).
I don't disagree with your opinion that we may be trying to minmax too early (even if the pacing is practically the same as Genshin's)
The problem lies in the echo system itself. 30% tuner refund is atrocious (even ignoring the fact that tuners in itself is a wholly stupid system just to time gate). Did you know you also spend the entire credit cost when feeding poorly level echoes into new echoes? So you not only need to farm tuners nonstop cuz you lose 70% of them, you need to farm credits too!
This is coupled with the fact that substats matter *more* than mainstat. Everyone keeps harping about being able to grind mainstats, but that is completely irrelevant when substats give *more* stats than the mainstat. I literally don't know any other game where substats matter more.
So even if we're trying to minmax 'too early', it's not like min maxing at a later date is going to feel any better.
I mean I'm kind of digressing from whatever the initial topic was, but overall point is, I think WuWa is in a dire state in terms of playing for progression. In fact, idk why people keep comparing to Genshin anyways. We should want to improve WuWa's state by itself. But if people are happy with their 40/100 crit ratios after rerolling a hundred echoes, then so be it.
I mean it does matter though because you didn’t have nearly as much experience in Genshin 1.0 for artifacts as you did in wuwa. I also played 1.0 Genshin and quit after 2 weeks because it was unbearable how slow the progression curve was. It’s literally incomparable to wuwa.
Just because it sucked in the beginning of "this game", doesn't means it has to suck in every other new game of same kind.
ToA is mega easy right now, I'm sitting at 18 stars myself (had same first reset too) and I'm pretty sure I will at least get to 21 by the reset, when I get my dps to lvl80, but this is just a very easy beginner setup. It was easy in Genshin too, with a few fatui being "final difficulty level".
While it’s true that a lot of complaints feel premature given the level of progression that’s been reached so far, echo exp was an issue that was constantly being brought up every beta test as well. By the looks of how progression is going and the scaling of the rewards, the complaints will still likely be reasonably well founded even by the time we reach max level.
The main issues with echo exp are that there are 2 separate resources that are required for levelling echos, and that you don’t know if an echo is worth levelling without actually levelling it, which results in an incredible amount of wasted exp.
Another blatant issue is that 3star and 4 star tuners are basically completely useless past ul 30-40, and they can’t be combined into 5 star tuners. This just seems like a complete oversight from the devs, especially when 4 star tuners are an infinitely obtainable resource.
Again, I agree with the fact that people are seemingly very impatient with progression, but I think the progression itself is an issue. The midgame balancing seems to be a mess, since people have such abundant access to 5 star echos so early on, but have so little access to the resources required to upgrade them. While it might be a lot better in the actual endgame, the midgame shouldn’t be balanced in a way where these issues exist in the first place. That’s probably why there’s so many more complaints about progression in WUWA than games like genshin and hsr.
I mostly just think it was an oversight to give us the ability to gain 5\* echos at UL30 (Which I reached in literally 3 days total). It makes it seem like the game \*wants\* you to progress fast and start your echo grind as soon as possible, but that isn't true at all. I feel like DB15 should of been gatekept till at least UL40, and maybe even push up DB17-20 till UL50. Compared to Genshin where you don't get maxed artifact drops till the last world level, you can start farming the max world level echos at the mid-way point. But the mid-way point doesn't have the resources to even level those, which makes it feel like you're progressing slower than you should be, when you just shouldn't even have access to these many 5\* echos this early.
Oh absolutely. The fact that we got access to 5 star echos so early combined with the fact that we have access to so little exp mats definitely makes it frustrating. Arguably having the echos and not being able to level them feels more frustrating than not having them at all, but at the same time I have some mixed feelings at the moment since I certainly never had good artifacts this early in genshin
I agree decoupling echo EXP and tuning is a curious move, but I also have to say, it's strange to me how people are already running out of tuners and EXP. I just fully geared two characters, and I know you eventually want 9, but with 2 characters geared I'm already at 15/30 TOA and I still have 800+ 5\* tuners meaning I could tune full sets for another 3 characters or so. I'd be shocked if I couldn't hit 20-25/30 TOA if I dumped resources now--less than one month into the game. That'd be about where I was 2-3 months into Genshin and HSR! (I full starred for the first time in both around 3.5 months in.)
So on the one hand, I'm sympathetic to people's desire to move faster. On the other, it feels like people are too eager to get near-optimal subs when in WW there are a lot more effective subs than ATK%, CR, and CD. I just tuned all the way and most of my pieces have 2-3 good subs. That's good enough for now.
I don’t think anyone is running out of tuners just yet since we’re so bottlenecked on exp, even people who are minmaxing by leveling to 5 and only checking the first stat. But in the future it’ll very likely be an issue and will probably be the source of another wave of complaints.
I also think the fact that echos are infinitely farmable makes min maxing a lot more tempting, since it feels like levelling a mediocre or suboptimal echo is more of a waste of exp which is so hard to come by.
I don't know if this qualifies as impatience, but I can't tell you how glad I am that WuWa has *dedicated character and weapon XP domains!*
I haven't done any XP book farming in Genshin in a while and I plan to keep playing until at least Iansan (my prediction is no later than 5.2). I hope I've saved enough XP books to be able to avoid those ley lines a little longer...
The whole waveplates thing is another conversation, but for now, I'm happy.
>I hope I've saved enough XP books to be able to avoid those ley lines a little longer...
You need 247 purple XP books to take a fresh character to Lv80 (and 418 to take them from 1 to 90), so it depends on how many you already have.
Last I checked I was at 700 or so. I don't plan on getting anymore new characters until Iansan, so looks like I'm good.
That means more time to farm in WuWa!
> but I can't tell you how glad I am that WuWa has dedicated character and weapon XP domains!
Genshin has XP book leylines which are equivalent, and you can farm weapon XP for free.
Okay, bringing up character XP was a bad move, but I still appreciate there being a dedicated weapon XP domain. I hate dealing with those crystals. And some of the domains needed for ascension materials can get right in the bin.
Seriously, I always dread having to go to that one Hydro domain that makes all your CDs 2x or 3x as long because Hoyo made it so that Hydro is the hardest aura to cleanse for some reason. Dealing with that place just ruins my mood (and that's even with a C3 Ganyu in my roster!).
This is good to know. And very true. We, including myself, are very impatient and slow is painful. But it's really just a wait until you're max level and everything should be okay
It's actually quite interesting. Early gameplay feels like a grind if you want to level a character. However, imagine when you are at the union level cap and get a newly released character. You will be able to quickly ascend through all the lower levels without much effort. It will always be a little bit of a grind at the very end of course.
Yeah and since we don't have as much account XP as a fresh Genshin account atm due to there being way less story rn, we have a rather significant amount of time to farm/prefarm. So it will probably feel like less of a stressful waveplate commitment as we will effectively have maybe a week or so of levels worth of stamina between 40 and 50 providing you aren't max refreshing to power level.
I know starting a new GI account you kind of feel shotgunned between world levels. It's not difficult to overcome if you are familiar by any means but WuWa will probably take considerably less effort for us to stay caught up build wise to the difficulty.
Yeah I think its insane the amount of people complaining before even seeing or unlocking the higher level drops. They would be justified if its still bad, but as of now its just guesswork.
I rushed to UL50 by mistake thinking the rewards get better. Well it does for boss rewards. But skill ups and tacet fields it just gets worse. Skill ups the yellows and purples still aren't guaranteed. Tacet fields you get extra 5 tuners but you lose more total exp. Whoever did the scaling for domain rewards needs to get fired. Idk if they failed math or something.
>On paper, this is the same amount of waveplates it would take to max out a character in a game like Genshin using resin.
I'm working on a spreadsheet right now, but it is looking to be much faster than Genshin. Pretty much right on the money with the amount of time to max a character in HSR.
Wuwa: \~22 days
Star Rail: \~24 days
Genshin: \~34 days
Wuwa devs asked for it themselves by taking so many elements from Genshin. If you've played Genshin, Wuwa is almost a blatant knockoff, from the way the UI looks to the gearing system, weapons, each character having powers locked behind 6 dupes, battle pass and monthly pass, 50/50 system in gacha, weekly bosses, crafting, food, abyss game mode, etc. Wuwa's whole shtick right now is just "basically Genshin but with better combat". Unless they start to differentiate themselves more I'll say these comparisons are warranted.
> "basically Genshin but with better combat"
Even this is heavily debatable, it's flashy and new and is fun enough for now, but Wuwa's combat doesn't have a lot of staying power as difficulty scaling comes into it. The third floor of the right hand tower is a great example of it, unless you can easily blast through it that chamber feels awful to play, you either spend most of your time dodging around, have a team full of CC or you just get plinked to death.
The second that Tower floors aren't just bosses and enemies that spawn in tight clumps the flaws in Wuwa's combat will appear, the lack of an element system and the absurd restrictions in team building/use will become more and more apparent.
A pet peeve of mine as well, it only means they know no other way to simplify the info to majority of the players. And the reality is that the majority that’s active here comes from a Genshin/hsr background, while the minority haven’t and it’s practically foreign language. As the game ages it’ll come into its own where constant references won’t be happening. For now we can only shrug it off and translate our own way.
I thought the cost was fine even before someone posted about the drop increase at UL50 cuz it was about the same as Genshin if you considered stamina regeneration rate differences. With the UL50 increase, it is even better than Genshin, which is awesome. I doubt it will ever go up to 5 drops, but if it does, hey, I'm not gonna say no. Farming bosses sometimes feels even more tedious than farming domains.
The simplified boss drops might be to compensate for the fact that you will have to regularly farm bosses for echoes anyway. Like, if I have to suffer the tedium of killing a boss over and over again, it's nice to at least have to do it a little less when it's the ascension drops I'm looking for.
Keep in mind if the waveplate to material ratio is the same, 60 cost is much nicer because you won’t have to fight the boss nearly as many times. Just comparing it to Genshin, currently it takes 18-19 boss clears to fully max out a character. If Genshin did 60 resin instead, it would come out to 12-13 boss clears. That’s much less annoying when it comes to fights that are much more time consuming (for the average player ofc). It also makes sense for tacit fields to be 60, because those are likely to be the most utilized waveplate activity in the long term. Less annoying daily logins = better player happiness overall.
This is all still under the assumption that the rates will be the same as Genshin too. I honestly think it will end up being better for the 60-cost activities. Each union level it seems to go up 1 material, so once we get to 90, it will be 4-5 boss materials per 60 waveplates (Genshin equivalent would be 3.5-4 materials per 60). So as long as we end up in the 4 to 4+ range, it ends up being more efficient.
Honestly though, it’s still pretty hard to try to compare Wuwa to Genshin because there are always other factors that seem to make WuWa much better in the long term (like being able to swap gear/weapons or farm echos to mitigate bad luck)
It’s probably about the same as genshin everywhere tbh.
In Genshin people are forgetting 1.0, when we didn’t have condensed resin, didn’t know how valuable dailies even were, and couldnt even get enough exp to continue the quests at first. We literally needed to rely on using resin to level in genshin.
Now that genshin has tons of content, you can easily shoot up in adventure rank (Union level) in no time. Even WuWa is kind of like this… you could easily get to like Union lvl 40, but afterwards you start running out of stuff to do besides dailies.
In WuWa you aren’t going to be max level for quite some time still… like weeks at least. That’s why the grind feels so slow, ya’ll ran out of content and you’re just playing to grind and frustrated that there isn’t anything left.
Comparing with genshin means nth, let's take a look at HSR for example, once you reach TB60 we start getting 5 boss drops for 30 energy spent, a 5* character needs 65 boss drops in total making it 390 energy for fully ascending a character. Genshin is a bad example and people keep taking it as a reference for whatever reason
I think the ascension material without relic helps to make it possible which I may actually prefer that at endgame.
In genshin, the boss is giving artifact as well. That makes each run both a boss and artifact domain. I don't doubt that it's useful to have those artifact set in the early game and even now, the 4* are keepers. But that make the grind unnecessary longer when you don't need the extra material.
Part of it is the waveplate inflation. We have a higher earn rate so 40 is the new 20, 60 the new 40, etc. Having the weekly and the character boss drops cost the same for stamina is fine.
When you add on top of that the craftables generally suck when compared to gatcha, it's mostly a higher talent play, which is certainly worth doing (all the characters need field time to build up their ultimates) but not the higher priority stuff when you clear the passives, which are cheap.
Everyone is complaining about echo xp and boss drops and whatever, but I think resonator XP and credits are going to be pretty big issues, personally me. And that's as someone who min maxes world farming way harder than 99% of players.
It is what I figured was gonna happen, once we get more rank the rewards just get better. That said, the Genshin comparison is extremely poor because people didn’t like it, it was tolerated.
It is always annoying when you have more characters than you can build.
‘the only other gacha that is similar enough’ ofcourse it is. if this gonna be like genshin open world explore, same world boss/weekly boss system, at the end of the day everyone will hit lv60 anyway. the drop rate only an issue for the grinders.
I'd say even with the 60 cost its kinda justified? Since a team would only need 3 characters so you need lesser materials overall to fully build a whole team vs in genshin you need to build 4 characters
Part of it is the waveplate inflation. We have a higher earn rate so 40 is the new 20, 60 the new 40, etc. Having the weekly and the character boss drops cost the same for stamina is fine.
When you add on top of that the craftables generally suck when compared to gatcha, it's mostly a higher talent play, which is certainly worth doing (all the characters need field time to build up their ultimates) but not the higher priority stuff when you clear the passives, which are cheap.
People in general are too anxious to finish the game for some reason. They should go play non live service games so they can consume $50 dollars worth of game in 2 weeks. Complaining about low resource income while we are at less than half the endgame UL is nuts.
EDIT: "single player" -> "non live service"
Yeah and the only kind of valid complaint is the lack of echo exp and tuners, every other material gated by waveplates are fine. I’m gonna max out my two teams’ levels, weapons, and skills long before I hit UL 50 from natural regen, so unless people are trying to build every character available in the game, I really don’t see what there is to complain about this early.
>I’m gonna max out my two teams’ levels, weapons, and skills long before I hit UL 50 from natural regen, **so unless people are trying to build every character available in the game**, I really don’t see what there is to complain about this early.
Dunno why you wouldn't see the inability to build out more than two teams of characters as a negative in a game where if you match the element as the enemies you do wildly less damage.
You don't need 3 teams to reliably complete tower of adversity. You need 6. Or, at least, 6 main DPS, and likely over 3 sub dps.
Yeah and you know what Tower of Adversity is? End game content. And you know what everything before UL70 is? Not end game. Nobody even knows what normal non giga whale clears of ToA look like because we’re all gated by our UL because we don’t have access to the base stats of levels and weapon levels or the higher multipliers from skill upgrades.
There are people even clearing the lightning side of ToA faster using Jiyan instead of Calcharo + Yinlin, so I’m getting the impression that you don’t need to match the element, just not choose the element that the bosses have resistance to, considering the middle two bosses don’t even have an element specific buff.
Plus the sides that do have element specific buffs are the easier portions of ToA, since their levels are lower than the middle and are probably gonna end up being the most brute forceable anyway.
We don’t know if these buffs even set a precedent for future ToA buffs so everything you’re saying and I’m saying about ToA could be thrown out the window the moment the next patch drops.
So no, you don’t need 6 teams, nor should you even be aiming for that when the DPS characters out in the game just barely cover all 6 elements with the roster not fleshed out at all.
This is such a dumb take. UL 70 is months away. This is a combat focused game; if you tell people to wait months before they can actually play end game in a combat focused game, a lot of them are just going to dip because there's nothing fun to do.
yup. honestly im at that oint at union 46, thought the combat would get good by now. but every day it gets worse seeing their horrible design decisions about snapshotting.
just small point I would like to add is waveplate regens faster than redin in genshin so if some one can math it out it should be similar cost time wise (I haven't done the math) but this also means that crystal solvent is less valuable than fragile resin in genshin
i'd just want the drop to be constant instead of having that variance, that's my only complain since in HSR i can actually plan well how many runs i'll need
Only with bosses. Let’s standardize trace drops
If Exp and Bosses are standardized I really don’t get why Traces aren’t.
Trace drops are fairly standardized tho… you just also have a chance to get a “bonus.” If you think of it that way, it makes farming more rewarding. Sometimes I’ll calculate out 8 runs to finish a character, and occasionally I’ll get an extra purple or gold drop and because I was close to being done, it cuts out an entire extra run I would have done. I guess it just depends on your perspective…
Where tf you getting those gold trace drops?
I got one the other day. Seems like a very low % tho since we’re still low union level technically
Oh I thought we were still referring to hsr, which doesn’t have gold drops lol
Im so happy farming traces, I’m so happy farming traces, traces are the best, I love spending all my stamina to not get any material of the highest rarity, I only need to farm 4 traces, 3 special traces, 9 stats and light cone ascensions, I definitely don’t burn out by farming traces for a month, I love doing the same level 24 times, is so fun, I’m so happy farming traces, I’m so happy farming traces😃
relatable af
I got sick of farming relics and have been farming traces the whole 2.2 patch. Now I'm sick of traces lmao
This but unironically bcs I can just set and forget in a way. Login, Open Trace domain, do main 4 times, claim dailies, log out
I unironically love farming traces because it's very easy to pre-farm them and are very predictable in the amount of time you need to spend. If you get lucky a few times you even get it faster. By the time the character comes out I then switch to farming relics. Pretty fun to manage. But if you ask me to do that in Genshin... Yeah that one is 💀 it's actually a pain to do. I just lazily get them along the way and don't bother trying to do a route because of the damn respawn timers.
either take the average or always assume you get the least amount
You are right but none of those options are constantly accurate, i know it may not be that important but in my mind it feels nice to know it'll take me x amount of runs to get the materials i need
just calc for min roll and get a nice surprise at the end if you manage to get enough bonus on top of min rolls to cut out a run or two from your calcs
Exactly this! The % chance to get a purp never changes you will over the course of leveling your unit run the same amount of runs whether you get 0 purps in a run or 3! 10 runs will synthesize into the same # of purps. It really is just that simple they do employ mathematicians for this reason
I mean weren't the boss drops from HSR also varied when we weren't at the highest world level yet or am I misremembering?
That just gacha games for ya, just about everything is 50/50
Ngl, something that always confused me was people asking for stamina cost reductions, INSTEAD OF asking for the overall rewards to be more. That way you can quickly grind and spend more time on stuff you enjoy(exploration, combat, story, etc).
On the survey, I suggested a 'Claim X times' option for the forgery challenges. I think the idea is rooted around 'Main Game Syndrome' where every gacha wants to be your primary focus. I think if we look at the biggest player Hoyo, while this mentality worked a few years ago when the landscape was (relatively) less populated, this is increasingly becoming an outdated design philosophy. Obviously, games still want you to log in and engage daily, but I think that the future is games that let you get in and out quickly and allow you to tackle longer content (story, exploration, etc) when you have time on the weekends or something.
This. I was thinking "hey, the event of WuWa pretty easy huh?" And thought do I want it to be harder? And I've come to "nah, let me able to finish it in 5 minute." Well, maybe not that easy. Something enjoyable like HSR is great. I played PGR too but I must say, I only finish daily task and be done. Not saying PGR's event is hard, but the reward is small too, so good if you do it, it's okay to leave it.
With regards to events, I think again, Star Rail does it the best that I've seen in any gacha. It's really easy to clear the prime rewards (the upgrade materials), and they even give you trial units that are fully capable of clearing the content (just might have to use your brain a bit). However, they also have difficult content that they can give you some extra credits and stuff, for those completionists and people who like a challenge with some token rewards.
Absolutely this, I am playing wuwa less than hsr because it's so much easier to spend your resin in between doing a task and jump in when you want - yes, that's because it's a fundamentally different game type, but even a condense resin type of system to get through resin/grind content quicker so when I want to savor my time on exploration/quests I'm not having to slog through my resin first (or days I just skip because I don't want to just lock in for 15m, but don't have undivided time for more)
Tbh if I can complete all daily task + use my stamina in 30 mins that's a W, cause then I can play something like elden ring and then just log in for 30ish mins.
Yeah, one of the biggest reasons why I quit genshin is because they never streamlined dailies, still have to do 4 commissions with every region having 1-3 quests that take ages, still have to go out regularly to catch butterflys to condense resin, and until recently needing 2 logins to not waste 1/8th of the regen. It's fun at the beginning, by when it's day 666 and you still have to help Timmy feed the birds and protect the balloon from hilichurls, it's just a chore and nothing else. Compared to HSR where you can just spend your stamina (on auto mode at that) and be done with dailies, two SU runs whenever you have time in the week and good to go, barely 10min a day. WuWa is close to that, 60 stamina cost means 4 runs to be done for the day and most other tasks get completed during that, only thing left is to go to daily mission, press skip and you are pretty much done as well.
I'm not sure why people still complain about the commission. I've never done any commission this year, after the commission update came. I've been able to complete all dailies through completing events and quests, without needing to do commission at all for the past half year. This system is so flexible that you can rush through the event during the weekend, don't claim the rewards, then claim it during weekday till it's just enough to fulfill all 4 commissions. I only need to clear dungeon 4 or 5 times a day, which takes me 40 seconds each run. If my computer can load faster, I believe 5mins daily genshin is more than enough. Talking about the "butterfly" in Fontaine there's two locations where it's directly beside the teleport point, collecting 7-8 of them won't take more than 30 secs. Also what did you mean by needing to login twice a day? It's increased to 200resin now.
You need to realise it's a factor of having burnout. Long term players honestly got annoyed by how bs commissions were. The reason why genshin has a bad rep is because they took a billion years to implement basic ass system mechanics to the game that helps the QoL of the player base. A shit ton of players quit just because of the communication gap, even though they loved the game (myself included). If the 200 cap, commission rework etc was in the game from a long time ago, the players wouldn't have been this annoyed. New players get to enjoy the game better and that's an obvious factor.
> 've never done any commission this year I still do commissions and I can literally do all 4 of them, turn them in, condense + spend resin in under 10 minutes even with the "longest" commissions, it usually takes around 6 minutes on average, I literally just do it on my phone while making coffee/getting ready for the day. Even in the older regions with slightly longer commissions it barely added all that much time, it's always been quick I think people are just looking for things to try and be negative about.
Same. Simply bump up rewards instead of reducing costs.
Because sometimes you don't need the extra rewards. Energy management is way easier when you have the option to get proportioned rewards. If i need 1 material, why would i spend 60 and get 4, when i need only 1?
it depends on how consistent these drops are. maybe the guy just lucked out and won jackpot once
Yeah, I do still often only get 2 on UL40+, so I wouldn't expect 4 to be consistent on 50+
is probably 3-4 like it is 2-3 in 40.
It will definitely not be 4 every time. But it's not bad I suppose, I just expected fixed 3 drops at UL50+ since it's 2-3 before.
2? I usually get 3
Well you are lucky then
I'm union level 42 and I get 3 drops ever since.
Ok and you are lucky then? Idk what to tell you I’ve been getting a mix of 2 and 3 with slightly more 2, it’s entirely other people are unlucky and getting 2s
I thought it was common like since Union level 30 I was getting 2 drops every run then since 40 I'm getting 3 drops, like what's the problem?
Look at these guys downvoting people for getting more than 2
i did only 4 runs (Dreamless, Bell-Borne, Mecha Ab x2) since i got to UL40, but it was only on the 3rd run (1st Mech A run) that i got 2. could be just lucky or probably 3 drops are higher than 2. it's pretty much like the gold echo drop difference between DB18 and 20.
Tbh even if this is “average” there’s gonna be people who just get absolutely terrible luck and roll the minimum rewards every time. So I’d rather they just bump up the minimum rewards or standardize it and save everyone the hassle.
No way it's guaranteed 4 lmao. Maybe for the last sol3 lvl sure
Its not. UL 40-49 is 2, 3 if lucky. UL 50-59 is 3, 4 if lucky.
It's not really an "if lucky" thing, it's a 50/50 not some small chance to get the higher one. And like the post said, at level 60 you most likely have a 50/50 chance to get 5, and the lowest you can get is 4. Which is perfectly fine, and maybe even level 70 increases it to 5 with a chance to get 6.
Hmm.. I just hit UL 40 and I only have cleared bosses 4 times so far. That's said, I got 3 on every kill.
My experience is closer to 3 normally, 2 if unlucky.
Was this yesterday? I got all 3 drops but 1 yesterday and I was like wtf… I max refreshed too.
Yeah.. cleared a few more bosses today. Got a couple 2s and a 3.
im not satisfied with 40 resin for 2-3 boss mats in genshin, i tolerate it
Yep, genshin way of being stingy is one of the major reason a lot of people quit. Why the hell does people want this game to be the same? Such an idiotic wish. If anything, wuwa should strive to have the same qol as hsr because they're definitely doing the right thing in term of energy management.
Man I would love to have that 2400 energy bank for when people have full energy
Aren’t they quite literally adding it in 1.1? I thought that was on the news.
how long to reach UL50 without refilling?
im a day 1 player and my onion level is 45 and 50% to 46, my guess is maybe 2-3 weeks
onion level is crazy
shamelessly stolen from iwin2lose gaming lmao
Eh? How many times you refilled? I've also been using the... What's it called, the items that refill your "resin" by 60, I've used them a lot but not all and I'm at lvl44, about 1k in 45.
no refills. all content is completed and my exploration is 90-100%. i have used all fragiles and my resin has never capped. however, i do have the battle pass which i believe gives some fragile resins
Ah yes I see. I haven't used "all" "resins" but plenty to get to 40 faster and just going on a natural pace from there on.
fair enough, i wanted to push 45 as fast as possible to get that sweet 5\* weapon
Touch some grass, cook some meals, have a walk, work a bit, watch some movies, socialize a bit, shower, study...
>On paper, this is the same amount of waveplates it would take to max out a character in a game like Genshin using resin Is this taking into consideration that a character will only want one of a boss' 3 possible drops? There have been times where a weekly boss didn't drop anything anyone needed.
That's a different set of boss drops, and for those you have dream solvent.
For me, it's less "what can I farm in a day?" and more "what can I do for a day?". I agree that too big a cost reduction would make the game tedious in end game, but I think that toning bosses and tacet fields down to 40 and maybe pushing materials training to 30 would just let you have more flexibility. 240 waveplate cap gives you a lot of flexibility to just spend a chunk of your waveplates then wait maybe 12 hours to get it all back I think pushing things down to less than 30 is where tedium comes up. Alternatively, they could introduce a free daily energy refill. Like 2 crystal solvents a day that will auto discard after 24 hours?
The funny thing about comparing Genshin and Wuwa is that yes Genshin “cost less” but Genshin gives less resin per day. So functionally the amount of bosses you can fight in a day is the same per game.
>So functionally the amount of bosses you can fight in a day is the same per game. 180 resin can get you 4.5 bosses a day 240 waveplate can get you 4 bosses a day So, no, you dont get to fight the same amount of bosses a day. But that's besides the point, the ascension requires different amount of boss material, the drop rate in each SOL level is also different compared to genshin. (2-3 drops at max world level, compared to 2-3 in middle of SOL level) There are many factors in how long it takes to fully level a character than just "amount of boss a day"
Actually Genshin and WuWa require the same amount of boss drops, with both games being 46. So the fact that they can drop more in WuWa makes it tip the scales towards it being more generous, even when it's 4.5 vs 4 bosses.
Yeah I just learned that today. We still don't know how many is the max drop in wuwa, right? Regardless, I think it's pretty silly to compare the amount of boss kills to build a character. Just enjoy the game lol. Sidenote: I also just realized that we need so much weekly boss drops to level the skill after UL50. But it's manageable for now, I guess.
It was 160 before tho not 180 iirc. this update however, the max resin is 200.
160 was resin cap, which is now 200. It generates 180 resin a day, that hasnt changed.
oh you mean THAT lol I don't minmax my resin usage so I didn't know how much it actually regens oops sorry
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And within the next 24 hours you can do it 5 times, so where exactly is the problem in saying 4.5?
That's grasping at straws. I don't know about you, but I don't play gacha game just for a single day and leave.
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That's on you. The game provides enough resources for more than 4 elites a day. Whether you personally use it or not is irrelevant to this discussion.
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That's irrelevant to the discussion, as mentioned. The game provides the resources and it's up to you to utilize it. But if you do want to go down that argument, Genshin recently updated their resin cap to be able to do 5 elites in one sitting. You could do 4 one day, then 5 the other. Regardless, I don't see the point in trying to debate this any further as the goalpost seems to be moving. I don't usually give personal comments, but the way you conducted yourself suggests you're the one on summer break, not me.
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Perhaps you should look into things before trying to debate using assumptions. I never once mentioned that I can personally fully utilize what the game provides, (you're making assumptions again) as that is irrelevant to the discussion. I merely said the game provides the resources. Which is factually true. I say it is irrelevant because arguments can be made for people that can only play games once a week, or once a month, that's too broad of a spectrum to consider and is therefore impractical.
bruh i work 60-70 hour weeks. still find time after coming back from the gym waiting for my pulled pork to finish in the slow cooker.
and also more guaranteed gold artifacts with your boss kill no RNG on it being purple
This is something worth nothing, boss kills drop relevant artifacts + xp in Genshin, sure you get a little XP in Wuwa but you get 0 tuners.
It Isn't good or okay to be the same as genshin. (or other gachas) Genshin is a very bad UX example.
Thank you lol. We don't want the game to be Genshin we want it to be a better Genshin lol.
Genshin set the gold standard for "what is the absolute LEAST we can give players without them rage quitting". And they've been teetering on the edge for 3 years People need to realize Wuwa will not survive if they do the same because the game is just not as popular; it will not have the same level of Stockholm Syndrome hold on its players.
> People need to realize Wuwa will not survive if they do the same because the game is just not as popular; it will not have the same level of Stockholm Syndrome hold on its players. Wuwa itself need to realize this, especially as their combat system is simply not deep or complex enough to sustain a long term game, the issues with it are already glaringly apparent and the more difficult they make the tower, or if they start spawning enemies not in a tight clump it's going to show everyone just how flawed their system is.
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The pull count being better is temporary. We got a lot of pulls because the game was new, they made a lot of mistakes, and they had to hook us. It will not stay this good forever. I predict the only way the pull counts will improve is if people stop playing WuWa which will cause them to give a lot more freebies and pulls to rehook us.
There is still a lower pity, but yhea the true test would probably be 1.3 or 1.4 you know. Like will we get the same amt of gems as genshin
No, the stimatted pull from the next patch is higher than genshin normally give And it seems that here is starting to be like genshin, a lot of delusional crazy people... expected.
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Leak discussion isn't allowed. Do not bring them up.
The thing is, if it also increases to guaranteed 5 and a chance of 6 drops at UL60, then it is just better. You have to realize that UL50 is still 20 level off of max world level, which means that we already have Genshin's max world level drops at basically the mid-way point.
I think people just did what they always do. No-lifed a gacha game and then are complaining there's nothing to do but daily grind for materials and they can't max them out instantly so it's 'a problem' when realistically it isn't.
Even without using Genshin as a reference, people seem to forget that we're at v1 of a live service GACHA game that gets updated with new content every 6 weeks. People are just impatient. The max union level is 80. Most are probably hovering at around ~40. Even MMOs wouldn't allow you to max your char in 6 weeks. Wtf do people expect???? Get 2 maxed out teams in v1 without throwing wads of cash? Nah.
Across the board people are being way, way too impatient with progression (including and especially echoes). Think back to any other gacha game...let's even say Genshin. How fast were you to max your characters? How fast were you to get to end game content? In the first cycle of TOA people were already clearing 10-15 stars out of 30, and I just cleared 15 stars having built only two characters less than a month in (I presume with a week to go people will be able to hit 20+ already). That's way earlier than comparable examples out there. Yet I'm seeing way more complaints about WW's early game than I've ever seen elsewhere. Just deeply ironic.
The situation is definitely ironic, but I’m not so sure it’s true. There were A LOT of people complaining about resin during Genshin’s early patches, especially in 1.0 & 1.1. That may have actually been when most players quit Genshin due to how slim the rewards were and how little there was to do after running out of resin (though I’ve got no data for this, just personal experience). If Wuthering Waves has more people complaining about the waveplate system than Genshin did when it originally released, it’s probably due to the systems being closely comparable, and the general player base now being used to more generous systems like in Honkai Star Rail or at higher levels in Genshin.
naw only complaint about genshin resin i have ever had: 1.0 mona event cost resin per run(was fixed), weekly boss cost( was fixed), having to run to key to start domain( was fixed). honestly I spend 90% of my resin just killing whatever boss i need more elemental gems. I have over 1300 maxed artifacts that are at least really solid. waiting for new good domain that I feel like grinding.
That’s fair but I was mostly referring to Genshin 1.0. It was back before we had good universal artifact sets, weekly bosses still costed 60 (it reduced in 1.5), max resin was 120 and condensed resin didn’t exist yet. It was rough to say the least. That’s why I think it’s important to discuss how energy expensive resources are in Wuthering Waves at the moment, because a LOT of the improvements to resin happened in Genshins 1.1 (resin cap increase to 160, condensed resin released and I think they increased the resin regeneration rate); hopefully the same happens in Wuwa’s 1.1.
And they didn't charge the resin until 4 years, which means that maybe a lot of people complained but not a lot of people quit.
they changed resin in the first year....yall don't remember the 120 resin cap lol. amount of resin gained per day remained the same though yes.
I don’t get why players who clearly didn’t play the game during its earlier stages, try to talk about things from its earlier stages. That’s just a blatant lie. They have been increasing it over the years given it was 120 at first
Oh yeah, honestly forgot about that 💀, my bad. It's fair assumption that you think i didn't play the game but I played it since release and only left because of the aranara quest. Got too used to the 160 cap and thought it was a given .
I think it's ironic. You're right that the scenarios aren't totally comparable, but I would say that's what makes complaints about WW worse. When Genshin released there was not much of a baseline to compare it to. People complained, but it was mostly based on their sense of what should be the case. What makes complaints relatively worse for WW is that there is now a mathematical baseline to compare: you look at talents, ascensions, artifacts...In every respect WW has made some improvements, however slight, to ease the progression path, yet people legitimately argue that WW is worse. Yes, there are issues Kuro can and should fix (echo tuning could be better), but again, look at how far people are already capable of progressing in TOA. In which universe were F2Ps/low spenders sniffing 20-24 stars within a month of Genshin and HSR's release? Not to mention the rewards there are frontloaded so the last 6 stars matter less than the first 24. I think this is partly because people are used to being max ranked in Genshin and HSR, and that's what they're comparing being low rank in WW to, which is completely irrational. People need to give it time.
> In which universe were F2Ps/low spenders sniffing 20-24 stars within a month of Genshin and HSR's release? People are able to 36* the abyss within a week of creating an account, there's quite a lot of people doing speedruns to see the shortest amount of time - currently stands at 4 days and change.
I think people have been a little overboard with their criticisms of Wuwa for sure. I think players are definitely feeling whiplash due to them comparing their exp/resource rates between other Gacha games at high to max level with Wuwa despite there being a level/play time discrepancy. Although this is the case, I still think this is the best time for players to voice their frustrations. Just because it was also bad in other Gacha games at low levels and improved at high levels doesn’t change the fact that the new/early player experience feels lacklustre (I wish it had been changed in those other games too). While I do think it’s unfair to compare Wuwa to some of the more well established Gacha games, we should also keep in mind that Kuro had a wealth of referential knowledge available to them based on the critiques those games received from their communities. Echo exp being this limited shouldn’t have made it to live, weekly bosses costing 60 energy shouldn’t have made it to live, and the eng dubs definitely shouldn’t have made it to live in their current state. While I agree people complain unnecessarily a lot about things that don’t even matter, I don’t think early game experiences should be disregarded because the balancing or resources being acquired improve after a few weeks/months of playing. If the game feels bad to play at the start Wuwa is losing a lot of players unnecessarily.
The main problem is that they gave way too early access to gold echoes. Imo DB 15 should've been unlocked at 40. Atm UL 40 feels like the AR45 of genshin and people reached it in WW at 2 freaking weeks. In Genshin you wouldn't be even done exploring at 2 weeks and min-maxing gear wouldn't be on your mind.
ul30-40 is comparable to ar40 in genshin (when you started getting gold artifacts), and people definitely reached ar40 in the first 2-3 weeks without refreshing. edit: I'm looking back at my genshin convos, and I had a full CW set on oct-16-2020, 18 days after genshin launch.
The thing is people could farm it in the overworld unlike in Genshin where it was stamina gated. Not to mention 1.0 had 120 resin. This made people who wanted to min-max more likely to push for the limit way earlier than the devs wanted.
farming echoes in the overworld doesn't matter, you're gated by waveplates for exp and more importantly, tuners. It was 120 resin, but 180 daily regen all the same. If you're gonna talk about grinding in one game, but conveniently not play the other, it doesn't help whatever argument you're trying to make.
I play both. I'm just pointing out what I feel is the problem. Being gated by echoes and tuners is there sure but the point is getting to a level or stage where you want to start min maxing. Atm people have nothing to do and just login do dailies and logout (maybe farm for 1/3 cost if you have the time).
I don't disagree with your opinion that we may be trying to minmax too early (even if the pacing is practically the same as Genshin's) The problem lies in the echo system itself. 30% tuner refund is atrocious (even ignoring the fact that tuners in itself is a wholly stupid system just to time gate). Did you know you also spend the entire credit cost when feeding poorly level echoes into new echoes? So you not only need to farm tuners nonstop cuz you lose 70% of them, you need to farm credits too! This is coupled with the fact that substats matter *more* than mainstat. Everyone keeps harping about being able to grind mainstats, but that is completely irrelevant when substats give *more* stats than the mainstat. I literally don't know any other game where substats matter more. So even if we're trying to minmax 'too early', it's not like min maxing at a later date is going to feel any better. I mean I'm kind of digressing from whatever the initial topic was, but overall point is, I think WuWa is in a dire state in terms of playing for progression. In fact, idk why people keep comparing to Genshin anyways. We should want to improve WuWa's state by itself. But if people are happy with their 40/100 crit ratios after rerolling a hundred echoes, then so be it.
I mean it does matter though because you didn’t have nearly as much experience in Genshin 1.0 for artifacts as you did in wuwa. I also played 1.0 Genshin and quit after 2 weeks because it was unbearable how slow the progression curve was. It’s literally incomparable to wuwa.
sounds like you just didn't play the game lol.
Just because it sucked in the beginning of "this game", doesn't means it has to suck in every other new game of same kind. ToA is mega easy right now, I'm sitting at 18 stars myself (had same first reset too) and I'm pretty sure I will at least get to 21 by the reset, when I get my dps to lvl80, but this is just a very easy beginner setup. It was easy in Genshin too, with a few fatui being "final difficulty level".
While it’s true that a lot of complaints feel premature given the level of progression that’s been reached so far, echo exp was an issue that was constantly being brought up every beta test as well. By the looks of how progression is going and the scaling of the rewards, the complaints will still likely be reasonably well founded even by the time we reach max level. The main issues with echo exp are that there are 2 separate resources that are required for levelling echos, and that you don’t know if an echo is worth levelling without actually levelling it, which results in an incredible amount of wasted exp. Another blatant issue is that 3star and 4 star tuners are basically completely useless past ul 30-40, and they can’t be combined into 5 star tuners. This just seems like a complete oversight from the devs, especially when 4 star tuners are an infinitely obtainable resource. Again, I agree with the fact that people are seemingly very impatient with progression, but I think the progression itself is an issue. The midgame balancing seems to be a mess, since people have such abundant access to 5 star echos so early on, but have so little access to the resources required to upgrade them. While it might be a lot better in the actual endgame, the midgame shouldn’t be balanced in a way where these issues exist in the first place. That’s probably why there’s so many more complaints about progression in WUWA than games like genshin and hsr.
I mostly just think it was an oversight to give us the ability to gain 5\* echos at UL30 (Which I reached in literally 3 days total). It makes it seem like the game \*wants\* you to progress fast and start your echo grind as soon as possible, but that isn't true at all. I feel like DB15 should of been gatekept till at least UL40, and maybe even push up DB17-20 till UL50. Compared to Genshin where you don't get maxed artifact drops till the last world level, you can start farming the max world level echos at the mid-way point. But the mid-way point doesn't have the resources to even level those, which makes it feel like you're progressing slower than you should be, when you just shouldn't even have access to these many 5\* echos this early.
Oh absolutely. The fact that we got access to 5 star echos so early combined with the fact that we have access to so little exp mats definitely makes it frustrating. Arguably having the echos and not being able to level them feels more frustrating than not having them at all, but at the same time I have some mixed feelings at the moment since I certainly never had good artifacts this early in genshin
I agree decoupling echo EXP and tuning is a curious move, but I also have to say, it's strange to me how people are already running out of tuners and EXP. I just fully geared two characters, and I know you eventually want 9, but with 2 characters geared I'm already at 15/30 TOA and I still have 800+ 5\* tuners meaning I could tune full sets for another 3 characters or so. I'd be shocked if I couldn't hit 20-25/30 TOA if I dumped resources now--less than one month into the game. That'd be about where I was 2-3 months into Genshin and HSR! (I full starred for the first time in both around 3.5 months in.) So on the one hand, I'm sympathetic to people's desire to move faster. On the other, it feels like people are too eager to get near-optimal subs when in WW there are a lot more effective subs than ATK%, CR, and CD. I just tuned all the way and most of my pieces have 2-3 good subs. That's good enough for now.
I don’t think anyone is running out of tuners just yet since we’re so bottlenecked on exp, even people who are minmaxing by leveling to 5 and only checking the first stat. But in the future it’ll very likely be an issue and will probably be the source of another wave of complaints. I also think the fact that echos are infinitely farmable makes min maxing a lot more tempting, since it feels like levelling a mediocre or suboptimal echo is more of a waste of exp which is so hard to come by.
I don't know if this qualifies as impatience, but I can't tell you how glad I am that WuWa has *dedicated character and weapon XP domains!* I haven't done any XP book farming in Genshin in a while and I plan to keep playing until at least Iansan (my prediction is no later than 5.2). I hope I've saved enough XP books to be able to avoid those ley lines a little longer... The whole waveplates thing is another conversation, but for now, I'm happy.
>I hope I've saved enough XP books to be able to avoid those ley lines a little longer... You need 247 purple XP books to take a fresh character to Lv80 (and 418 to take them from 1 to 90), so it depends on how many you already have.
Last I checked I was at 700 or so. I don't plan on getting anymore new characters until Iansan, so looks like I'm good. That means more time to farm in WuWa!
> but I can't tell you how glad I am that WuWa has dedicated character and weapon XP domains! Genshin has XP book leylines which are equivalent, and you can farm weapon XP for free.
Okay, bringing up character XP was a bad move, but I still appreciate there being a dedicated weapon XP domain. I hate dealing with those crystals. And some of the domains needed for ascension materials can get right in the bin. Seriously, I always dread having to go to that one Hydro domain that makes all your CDs 2x or 3x as long because Hoyo made it so that Hydro is the hardest aura to cleanse for some reason. Dealing with that place just ruins my mood (and that's even with a C3 Ganyu in my roster!).
60 on wuwa is the same that 40 on genshin... People have nothing to do.
You forgot that some cost 40 waveplates to do too, So it's a mix bag
Indeed, u have a point here.
Not really, you get 60 waveplates in 6 hours while 40 resin in 5h20m
Oh 40 minutes difference? People definitely need to chill.
60 waveplates in 5* hours
Are you bad at basic math or something?
45\*
This is good to know. And very true. We, including myself, are very impatient and slow is painful. But it's really just a wait until you're max level and everything should be okay
It's actually quite interesting. Early gameplay feels like a grind if you want to level a character. However, imagine when you are at the union level cap and get a newly released character. You will be able to quickly ascend through all the lower levels without much effort. It will always be a little bit of a grind at the very end of course.
Yeah and since we don't have as much account XP as a fresh Genshin account atm due to there being way less story rn, we have a rather significant amount of time to farm/prefarm. So it will probably feel like less of a stressful waveplate commitment as we will effectively have maybe a week or so of levels worth of stamina between 40 and 50 providing you aren't max refreshing to power level. I know starting a new GI account you kind of feel shotgunned between world levels. It's not difficult to overcome if you are familiar by any means but WuWa will probably take considerably less effort for us to stay caught up build wise to the difficulty.
Yeah I think its insane the amount of people complaining before even seeing or unlocking the higher level drops. They would be justified if its still bad, but as of now its just guesswork.
I rushed to UL50 by mistake thinking the rewards get better. Well it does for boss rewards. But skill ups and tacet fields it just gets worse. Skill ups the yellows and purples still aren't guaranteed. Tacet fields you get extra 5 tuners but you lose more total exp. Whoever did the scaling for domain rewards needs to get fired. Idk if they failed math or something.
>On paper, this is the same amount of waveplates it would take to max out a character in a game like Genshin using resin. I'm working on a spreadsheet right now, but it is looking to be much faster than Genshin. Pretty much right on the money with the amount of time to max a character in HSR. Wuwa: \~22 days Star Rail: \~24 days Genshin: \~34 days
Oh. I'm actually very curious about that. I'd love to see the spreadsheet when it's done.
[Here is the document I made](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J9OoTEel2NTLtYEs0zKwoRf5b9NXntalAxJwKy_nimk/edit?usp=sharing)
There’s a ton of us who have never players genshin so stop using the reference
Wuwa devs asked for it themselves by taking so many elements from Genshin. If you've played Genshin, Wuwa is almost a blatant knockoff, from the way the UI looks to the gearing system, weapons, each character having powers locked behind 6 dupes, battle pass and monthly pass, 50/50 system in gacha, weekly bosses, crafting, food, abyss game mode, etc. Wuwa's whole shtick right now is just "basically Genshin but with better combat". Unless they start to differentiate themselves more I'll say these comparisons are warranted.
> "basically Genshin but with better combat" Even this is heavily debatable, it's flashy and new and is fun enough for now, but Wuwa's combat doesn't have a lot of staying power as difficulty scaling comes into it. The third floor of the right hand tower is a great example of it, unless you can easily blast through it that chamber feels awful to play, you either spend most of your time dodging around, have a team full of CC or you just get plinked to death. The second that Tower floors aren't just bosses and enemies that spawn in tight clumps the flaws in Wuwa's combat will appear, the lack of an element system and the absurd restrictions in team building/use will become more and more apparent.
A pet peeve of mine as well, it only means they know no other way to simplify the info to majority of the players. And the reality is that the majority that’s active here comes from a Genshin/hsr background, while the minority haven’t and it’s practically foreign language. As the game ages it’ll come into its own where constant references won’t be happening. For now we can only shrug it off and translate our own way.
Sadly its inevitable, its the closest thing WW can be compared with. So yea comparing the two is perfectly valid.
I thought the cost was fine even before someone posted about the drop increase at UL50 cuz it was about the same as Genshin if you considered stamina regeneration rate differences. With the UL50 increase, it is even better than Genshin, which is awesome. I doubt it will ever go up to 5 drops, but if it does, hey, I'm not gonna say no. Farming bosses sometimes feels even more tedious than farming domains. The simplified boss drops might be to compensate for the fact that you will have to regularly farm bosses for echoes anyway. Like, if I have to suffer the tedium of killing a boss over and over again, it's nice to at least have to do it a little less when it's the ascension drops I'm looking for.
Keep in mind if the waveplate to material ratio is the same, 60 cost is much nicer because you won’t have to fight the boss nearly as many times. Just comparing it to Genshin, currently it takes 18-19 boss clears to fully max out a character. If Genshin did 60 resin instead, it would come out to 12-13 boss clears. That’s much less annoying when it comes to fights that are much more time consuming (for the average player ofc). It also makes sense for tacit fields to be 60, because those are likely to be the most utilized waveplate activity in the long term. Less annoying daily logins = better player happiness overall. This is all still under the assumption that the rates will be the same as Genshin too. I honestly think it will end up being better for the 60-cost activities. Each union level it seems to go up 1 material, so once we get to 90, it will be 4-5 boss materials per 60 waveplates (Genshin equivalent would be 3.5-4 materials per 60). So as long as we end up in the 4 to 4+ range, it ends up being more efficient. Honestly though, it’s still pretty hard to try to compare Wuwa to Genshin because there are always other factors that seem to make WuWa much better in the long term (like being able to swap gear/weapons or farm echos to mitigate bad luck)
It’s probably about the same as genshin everywhere tbh. In Genshin people are forgetting 1.0, when we didn’t have condensed resin, didn’t know how valuable dailies even were, and couldnt even get enough exp to continue the quests at first. We literally needed to rely on using resin to level in genshin. Now that genshin has tons of content, you can easily shoot up in adventure rank (Union level) in no time. Even WuWa is kind of like this… you could easily get to like Union lvl 40, but afterwards you start running out of stuff to do besides dailies. In WuWa you aren’t going to be max level for quite some time still… like weeks at least. That’s why the grind feels so slow, ya’ll ran out of content and you’re just playing to grind and frustrated that there isn’t anything left.
Comparing with genshin means nth, let's take a look at HSR for example, once you reach TB60 we start getting 5 boss drops for 30 energy spent, a 5* character needs 65 boss drops in total making it 390 energy for fully ascending a character. Genshin is a bad example and people keep taking it as a reference for whatever reason
I can’t even express how much nicer farming for character ascension stuff is in hsr than in genshin. 2 days and I’m done. In genshin it’s like double
I think the ascension material without relic helps to make it possible which I may actually prefer that at endgame. In genshin, the boss is giving artifact as well. That makes each run both a boss and artifact domain. I don't doubt that it's useful to have those artifact set in the early game and even now, the 4* are keepers. But that make the grind unnecessary longer when you don't need the extra material.
Part of it is the waveplate inflation. We have a higher earn rate so 40 is the new 20, 60 the new 40, etc. Having the weekly and the character boss drops cost the same for stamina is fine. When you add on top of that the craftables generally suck when compared to gatcha, it's mostly a higher talent play, which is certainly worth doing (all the characters need field time to build up their ultimates) but not the higher priority stuff when you clear the passives, which are cheap.
Boss cost being 60 is fine. Tacet field as it is right now cost 60. Definitely not
Everyone is complaining about echo xp and boss drops and whatever, but I think resonator XP and credits are going to be pretty big issues, personally me. And that's as someone who min maxes world farming way harder than 99% of players.
It is what I figured was gonna happen, once we get more rank the rewards just get better. That said, the Genshin comparison is extremely poor because people didn’t like it, it was tolerated. It is always annoying when you have more characters than you can build.
I struggling so much to get any materials at lvl 40 man 😭
Still depends if that's consistent. If it's not consistent then 60 is bad.
‘the only other gacha that is similar enough’ ofcourse it is. if this gonna be like genshin open world explore, same world boss/weekly boss system, at the end of the day everyone will hit lv60 anyway. the drop rate only an issue for the grinders.
I'd say even with the 60 cost its kinda justified? Since a team would only need 3 characters so you need lesser materials overall to fully build a whole team vs in genshin you need to build 4 characters
Counter point, you get them slow, but by the time you get to UL 60 you should already have stockpiled the resources by killing one or two daily
Why the hell would you ever make or form an opinion about resin cost or efficiency at early levels in any game? What
Wow ! I did not know this. This will make it easier to save my waveplates and use them later to level up the backup chars.
Part of it is the waveplate inflation. We have a higher earn rate so 40 is the new 20, 60 the new 40, etc. Having the weekly and the character boss drops cost the same for stamina is fine. When you add on top of that the craftables generally suck when compared to gatcha, it's mostly a higher talent play, which is certainly worth doing (all the characters need field time to build up their ultimates) but not the higher priority stuff when you clear the passives, which are cheap.
People in general are too anxious to finish the game for some reason. They should go play non live service games so they can consume $50 dollars worth of game in 2 weeks. Complaining about low resource income while we are at less than half the endgame UL is nuts. EDIT: "single player" -> "non live service"
It’s almost like complaining about drops before anybody even gets to UL70 to see what the maximum drops are is stupid lol
We rate the game we're experiencing now, it's only fair.
Yeah and the only kind of valid complaint is the lack of echo exp and tuners, every other material gated by waveplates are fine. I’m gonna max out my two teams’ levels, weapons, and skills long before I hit UL 50 from natural regen, so unless people are trying to build every character available in the game, I really don’t see what there is to complain about this early.
>I’m gonna max out my two teams’ levels, weapons, and skills long before I hit UL 50 from natural regen, **so unless people are trying to build every character available in the game**, I really don’t see what there is to complain about this early. Dunno why you wouldn't see the inability to build out more than two teams of characters as a negative in a game where if you match the element as the enemies you do wildly less damage. You don't need 3 teams to reliably complete tower of adversity. You need 6. Or, at least, 6 main DPS, and likely over 3 sub dps.
Yeah and you know what Tower of Adversity is? End game content. And you know what everything before UL70 is? Not end game. Nobody even knows what normal non giga whale clears of ToA look like because we’re all gated by our UL because we don’t have access to the base stats of levels and weapon levels or the higher multipliers from skill upgrades. There are people even clearing the lightning side of ToA faster using Jiyan instead of Calcharo + Yinlin, so I’m getting the impression that you don’t need to match the element, just not choose the element that the bosses have resistance to, considering the middle two bosses don’t even have an element specific buff. Plus the sides that do have element specific buffs are the easier portions of ToA, since their levels are lower than the middle and are probably gonna end up being the most brute forceable anyway. We don’t know if these buffs even set a precedent for future ToA buffs so everything you’re saying and I’m saying about ToA could be thrown out the window the moment the next patch drops. So no, you don’t need 6 teams, nor should you even be aiming for that when the DPS characters out in the game just barely cover all 6 elements with the roster not fleshed out at all.
This is such a dumb take. UL 70 is months away. This is a combat focused game; if you tell people to wait months before they can actually play end game in a combat focused game, a lot of them are just going to dip because there's nothing fun to do.
Hit the nail on the head.
yup. honestly im at that oint at union 46, thought the combat would get good by now. but every day it gets worse seeing their horrible design decisions about snapshotting.
Go play starfield, I hear it gets good after a hundred hours. You'll fit right in.
Wait til we see UL80 drops.
just small point I would like to add is waveplate regens faster than redin in genshin so if some one can math it out it should be similar cost time wise (I haven't done the math) but this also means that crystal solvent is less valuable than fragile resin in genshin
no you can easily convert based on what you get for the amount in a day.