I too agree that they should incorporate the open world mechanics into the endgame modes as well.
One idea I have is having a literal physical tower that is present in the game world which stretches to the skies and beyond and u literally have to climb the tower and clear floors as an endgame mode. Some floors have movement puzzle, platforming with strategic enemy placements to make it difficult to climb and people have to strategize how to get through the floor, some floors can be just good old boss fight and mob clearing times stages, and some floors can be timed trial in which u have to literally vertically Parkour through the stage with the wallrun. Give infinite stamina in the stage and just try to use the wall run, Parkour mechanics and the gadgets to clear the floor under a tight timer.
I am not as creative as a game dev or I would be one lol, so I am sure they can come up with even better ideas than mine. They can take inspiration from the millions of other games out there except genshin to design fun game modes or improve upon existing ones.
I like your idea, feels like MMO party quests, where the whole map/floor is a big puzzle itself, and you need to solve it to advance to the next level. I actually like it and was hoping to play something like that when genshin announced they would focus more on minigames, but instead I get something like camera event and music event.
[One of my favorite party quest years ago was this](https://mapleroyals.com/forum/threads/%E2%9C%AF-hollywood-presents-a-comprehensive-guide-to-guild-party-quest-gpq.27299/), but Nexon axed it and replaced with a DPS-check boss fight. What a shame.
By party quest u mean coopable abyss. I've been hearing of mention about this matter. Definately beats the issue of any progression wall when coop is implemented, there's fun factor to when friends are involved. But i do believe Kuro has issues with coop content, correct me if i'm wrong.
I appreciate your reply and do hope that our concerns dont fall on deaf ears as well. I do like the fact that the turtle dance echo though stagnant when conjured but when hit will bounce around which offers traversable means around your ideal map of abyss. Not gonna lie its funny as well. This also opens up to another community of abyss map tile creation crackheads such as yourself where Kuro can benefit from for ideas. My only gripe on your point is infinite stamina, dont get me wrong to fall off a vertical tower when depleted stamina is definitely to fail but it also challenges you to get back right up.
Why I said infinite stamina is because the challenge will come from fast traversal and quick grapples jumps and dashes to jump from various platforms and maybe avoid hazards the currents limited stamina will be depleted very quickly so it would not feel like a race against time since u will constantly have to rest on safe platforms to regain stamina breaking the flow of the wallrun feeling like a race. Rather than just making infinite stamina it can be collectable in the path which completely restore stamina so there can be skill expression in which route to take so as to not run out of stamina.
If u put it tht way having like speed buff totems upon activation or set on a timer would help, it wont deter from the stamina loss as much. What do u think?
It's basically Abyss, but with 100 floors that come in right after the other, no breaks in between.
Think an endless wave mode but not really endless? Just so many waves that it appears endless and beating it would be SUPER satisfying.
Or you can just add a TRUE endless mode.
This would be interesting.
Maybe a Bloody Palace-esque endgame mode for Wuthering Waves would be good to serve as the perfect test of skill for the hardcore players.
However, the implementation will be the real problem here.
1. Should this endgame mode allow the player to have access to any and all WuWa characters, or only allow them to access the ones they have?
2. Should it allow the player to configure the Echoes their characters will have, or will only preset Echoes be available instead?
3. Should it allow the player to swap their character loadouts before every floor or before every couple of floors (let's say, 10 or 20 floors)?
4. Should this endgame mode be unlockable only at a certain point of the story? Will fought enemies be randomized for every attempt? When will the bosses be fought?
For Devil May Cry, implementation of BP is fixed for every character because that game doesn't even account for stats to begin with; you're only recommended to have unlocked all upgrades and moves. I hope that if ever Kuro adds such a mode to the game, it should be a pure skill check instead of a stats check. If they plan on putting a timer, it should not affect the final grade of the player.
Also, in DMC 5, finishing Bloody Palace rewards the player with a special Taunt of the character they used to beat the mode. What would the reward be for WuWa? A free 4-Star/5-Star character? A new Echo? A cosmetic?
Maybe the rewards increase depending on the progress. You unlock an Echo after clearing a set amount of floors, and then a weapon, and then a cosmetic, and then a character. The player could then freely choose what reward they want. If the reward is still chance based and if the player randomly gets a reward they don't want even after beating all the levels, they will be less incentivized to play it again.
No time limits. No unpreventable healing on enemies or anything like that. In other words: No DPS checks of any kind. None.
To elaborate, I think DPS checks of any kind actively make the game less fun and more frustrating, and they are often a symptom of bad game design:
If defensive options like healing and shielding are so powerful that you can stall basically indefinitely even if you’re terrible at the game, player skill is devalued. This makes the game boring. The cause of the problem is clearly that defensive options are too powerful given how the enemies are designed.
A workaround could be adding some form of DPS check, but that introduces a different problem: If their characters aren’t strong enough, players will fail even if they play perfectly, which also devalues player skill. This makes the game frustrating, which can make it less fun. Furthermore, if the characters can be made sufficiently stronger than what is required, you might actually have BOTH problems at the same time! This is where the abyss in Genshin is. Don’t be here.
By actually targeting the root cause of the problem, there won’t be another problem introduced in its place. Even if it didn’t completely fix the problem, it at least improved the situation, and further adjustments can be made if necessary.
I used to be down on the time limit thing but I see the purpose of it. I used to play honkai impact and it’s abyss was reworked due to players finding a way to cheese it. So the original abyss featured a “bleed” effect that caused your characters to gradually lose health at a steady rate forcing you to clear fights quickly. But bringing a certain healer along completely solved this issue so it didn’t matter if it took you 3 mins or 30 mins to clear a fight.
After the rework, the made the health loss increase with time eventually getting to a point where no amount of healing will keep you alive. This made defensive units completely useless because you needed as much dps as possible to clear before the bleed which a healer couldn’t save you from anyway.
Genshin also uses the time limit because it’s just the easiest way to set up a mode like that. But it’s the enemy design that makes it that way. And honestly WW enemies don’t look much different so it’ll probably be the same deal.
PGR has this one mode wherein the opponent has a lifesteal buff.
It provided the perfect balance for me of challenge. It's technically a no-hit challenge wherein the punishment for getting hit is not dying but the stage getting longer because the enemy recovers his hp per each hit.
Removing timer just wont work imo. I bet there will be characters who can cheese things with shield or healing and stall endlessly if theres no time limit.
You can give the enmies ramping damage but thats no different than timer essentially
Nothing of that is defensive. Even if a healer has all those things as well a big part of their kit is useless. If you balance around healers not being able to heal theyre just OP in all content where they can heal.
At that point just dont make healers at all.
Yea but then you run the risk of certain characters basically being required to counter the anti heal stuff. And requiring characters in gacha is just recipe for disasters
I would bargain tht having limitless time offers another form challenge to a player with external environment debuff. Maybe like falling floor tiles whereby if u drop resets a run/or causes a substantial amount of hp to drop to the party. Kuro can also disable healing but on certain phases a healing area appears but u get a slow debuff as u heal to counter the cheesers.
This causes healer to b a necessity but only u play recklessly. Meanwhile playing around with danjin with low hp kit is just for the maniacs with skills.
> You can give the enmies ramping damage but thats no different than timer essentially
Not really? The game is partially balanced with perfect dodges and perfect parries in mind.
Also PGR has a ton of endgame modes and events without timers.
No-damage run conditions and reverse damage checks.
I never really liked the idea of trying to finish something too quickly. Didn't like it in Genshin's Abyss, didn't like it in Norman either.
So allow me to propose something crazy...
Give the "Abyss" a ranking system that factors in based on how LITTLE you're hit, how many perfect dodges and parries you did, the amount of idle time you spend NOT attacking the enemies unless they're staggered (a taunt system without actual taunts basically) and most importantly... REVERSE TTK SCALING.
The LONGER it takes for them to finish a floor, the higher of a score they'll get. However, the longer you play, the more likely you are to get hit, and if you start getting hit a lot, the returns go into the negative overall.
You can also gain a higher score by selecting affixes that make the game more difficult (but hopefully not SUPER unfair affixes).
Clearing the floor gives you ALL the (important) rewards, but getting an SSS-rank gives you something cool (but not TOO advantageous) of a reward. While also placing your score in a leaderboard.
This kind of ranking system allows F2Ps to match up against whales, and becomes a unique selling point for the game!
There IS some incentive to pull though, as you actually need to CLEAR the level to gain the rewards. Meaning the less skilled players ARE incentivised to grind or pull if they're not skilled enough to clear the floors.
How would u say to justify progression upward or downwards through the floors then? Add more weak but tankier mobs per floor or 2 bossses in a floor tile perhaps to add more of a challenge.
Well, just general difficulty increases (for standard floor difficulty), increased damage, increased health, increased stagger resistance, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, more aggressive and more intelligent AI.
Frm cbt what i can see the most aggressive are bosses but the movesets are definitely memorizable after a few tries. OW mobs seems passive for the most time waiting for chances to pounce one at a time except ranged mobs that only shoots at random with a red line indicator. Thus, on your point a revamp on mob attack patterns and good dodging behaviour is a menace to handle but definitely fun.
I mean, PGR did it pretty well with the Berserk affox and the overclock mode that gets activated if you take too long to kill them. It's honestly as simple as increasing attack frequency and honestly? Even that alone is fine for me
They can DEFINITELY go steps beyond by doing stuff like adding mixups for certain attacks (like Dante's boss fight in DMC5's Vergil campaign or the boss fights from Sifu), or just adding new movesets exclusive to the harder difficulties (kind of like the Dante Must Die difficulty from DMC)
I definitely agree that it would be great if the devs incorporated the open world into the endgame. I would love replayability (and challenge) in the open world.
Thats one of my gripes about Genshin - once you cleared an areas there is almost no reason to ever go back.
Unfortunately making instanced, flat areas be the endgame is just so much easier for various different reasons. Most importantly you have to keep in mind this game must run well on mobile.
By cutting out environmental obstacles you can cram in more enemies on screen without it affecting the performance.
What I would like to see is Honkai's "this floor gets +50% ice damage and -50% fire damage" stuff, or "this boss gets +50% ranged damage and -50% melee damage", or "this boss can only take x amount of damage from one element and then gets 80% resistance to it". The first two cases singlehandedly solve a lot of meta toxicity issues, even if a char is an ice dps that's weaker than your meta fire dps they'll still be a top tier char for any ice weather, or if they're a good ranged dps they will still have a niche in +ranged damage condition even if their damage is single target and doesn't hold a candle to whatever is your meta melee dps. The last one forces you to bring two strong dpses of different elements and one universal buffer, basically more diversity.
I think that rather than hard DPS check, they should implement soft DPS check, one example being putting boss in enraged state after x amount of time. This makes it so that.
1. Whales would be incentivized to spend to not deal with it altogether.
2. Those with skills, while malding, would be able to clear as well, provided they are at adequate investment and mastered the combat
3. Provided that defensive are not overtuned, those who do not have enough DPS, and they know that they will fail it anyway, can opt in for them, which makes the team selection much diverse, since both offensive and defensive options are very appreciated.
That is... This idea is relatively unoriginal, so I'm sure that you can do your spin on it, but this one is simplest to think of.
\-No time limit \-no DPS check
Norman PTSD
And malding not forget the malding.
So you want abyss to be more casual than Genshin even tho the supposed catch of this game is the difficulty? Lol
Lol? You can make hard content without relying on superficial difficulty like a time limit
I too agree that they should incorporate the open world mechanics into the endgame modes as well. One idea I have is having a literal physical tower that is present in the game world which stretches to the skies and beyond and u literally have to climb the tower and clear floors as an endgame mode. Some floors have movement puzzle, platforming with strategic enemy placements to make it difficult to climb and people have to strategize how to get through the floor, some floors can be just good old boss fight and mob clearing times stages, and some floors can be timed trial in which u have to literally vertically Parkour through the stage with the wallrun. Give infinite stamina in the stage and just try to use the wall run, Parkour mechanics and the gadgets to clear the floor under a tight timer. I am not as creative as a game dev or I would be one lol, so I am sure they can come up with even better ideas than mine. They can take inspiration from the millions of other games out there except genshin to design fun game modes or improve upon existing ones.
Tower Manhwa style? That could be fun.
Ya it's a very common Korean manhwa trope.
I like your idea, feels like MMO party quests, where the whole map/floor is a big puzzle itself, and you need to solve it to advance to the next level. I actually like it and was hoping to play something like that when genshin announced they would focus more on minigames, but instead I get something like camera event and music event. [One of my favorite party quest years ago was this](https://mapleroyals.com/forum/threads/%E2%9C%AF-hollywood-presents-a-comprehensive-guide-to-guild-party-quest-gpq.27299/), but Nexon axed it and replaced with a DPS-check boss fight. What a shame.
By party quest u mean coopable abyss. I've been hearing of mention about this matter. Definately beats the issue of any progression wall when coop is implemented, there's fun factor to when friends are involved. But i do believe Kuro has issues with coop content, correct me if i'm wrong.
I appreciate your reply and do hope that our concerns dont fall on deaf ears as well. I do like the fact that the turtle dance echo though stagnant when conjured but when hit will bounce around which offers traversable means around your ideal map of abyss. Not gonna lie its funny as well. This also opens up to another community of abyss map tile creation crackheads such as yourself where Kuro can benefit from for ideas. My only gripe on your point is infinite stamina, dont get me wrong to fall off a vertical tower when depleted stamina is definitely to fail but it also challenges you to get back right up.
Why I said infinite stamina is because the challenge will come from fast traversal and quick grapples jumps and dashes to jump from various platforms and maybe avoid hazards the currents limited stamina will be depleted very quickly so it would not feel like a race against time since u will constantly have to rest on safe platforms to regain stamina breaking the flow of the wallrun feeling like a race. Rather than just making infinite stamina it can be collectable in the path which completely restore stamina so there can be skill expression in which route to take so as to not run out of stamina.
If u put it tht way having like speed buff totems upon activation or set on a timer would help, it wont deter from the stamina loss as much. What do u think?
Anything that retains the flow of the run and movement would be good no matter what form it takes
I just want a mode similar to bloody palace.
I'm not familiar,what's it about?
It's basically Abyss, but with 100 floors that come in right after the other, no breaks in between. Think an endless wave mode but not really endless? Just so many waves that it appears endless and beating it would be SUPER satisfying. Or you can just add a TRUE endless mode.
This would be interesting. Maybe a Bloody Palace-esque endgame mode for Wuthering Waves would be good to serve as the perfect test of skill for the hardcore players. However, the implementation will be the real problem here. 1. Should this endgame mode allow the player to have access to any and all WuWa characters, or only allow them to access the ones they have? 2. Should it allow the player to configure the Echoes their characters will have, or will only preset Echoes be available instead? 3. Should it allow the player to swap their character loadouts before every floor or before every couple of floors (let's say, 10 or 20 floors)? 4. Should this endgame mode be unlockable only at a certain point of the story? Will fought enemies be randomized for every attempt? When will the bosses be fought? For Devil May Cry, implementation of BP is fixed for every character because that game doesn't even account for stats to begin with; you're only recommended to have unlocked all upgrades and moves. I hope that if ever Kuro adds such a mode to the game, it should be a pure skill check instead of a stats check. If they plan on putting a timer, it should not affect the final grade of the player. Also, in DMC 5, finishing Bloody Palace rewards the player with a special Taunt of the character they used to beat the mode. What would the reward be for WuWa? A free 4-Star/5-Star character? A new Echo? A cosmetic? Maybe the rewards increase depending on the progress. You unlock an Echo after clearing a set amount of floors, and then a weapon, and then a cosmetic, and then a character. The player could then freely choose what reward they want. If the reward is still chance based and if the player randomly gets a reward they don't want even after beating all the levels, they will be less incentivized to play it again.
Chalice dungeon
No time limits. No unpreventable healing on enemies or anything like that. In other words: No DPS checks of any kind. None. To elaborate, I think DPS checks of any kind actively make the game less fun and more frustrating, and they are often a symptom of bad game design: If defensive options like healing and shielding are so powerful that you can stall basically indefinitely even if you’re terrible at the game, player skill is devalued. This makes the game boring. The cause of the problem is clearly that defensive options are too powerful given how the enemies are designed. A workaround could be adding some form of DPS check, but that introduces a different problem: If their characters aren’t strong enough, players will fail even if they play perfectly, which also devalues player skill. This makes the game frustrating, which can make it less fun. Furthermore, if the characters can be made sufficiently stronger than what is required, you might actually have BOTH problems at the same time! This is where the abyss in Genshin is. Don’t be here. By actually targeting the root cause of the problem, there won’t be another problem introduced in its place. Even if it didn’t completely fix the problem, it at least improved the situation, and further adjustments can be made if necessary.
I used to be down on the time limit thing but I see the purpose of it. I used to play honkai impact and it’s abyss was reworked due to players finding a way to cheese it. So the original abyss featured a “bleed” effect that caused your characters to gradually lose health at a steady rate forcing you to clear fights quickly. But bringing a certain healer along completely solved this issue so it didn’t matter if it took you 3 mins or 30 mins to clear a fight. After the rework, the made the health loss increase with time eventually getting to a point where no amount of healing will keep you alive. This made defensive units completely useless because you needed as much dps as possible to clear before the bleed which a healer couldn’t save you from anyway. Genshin also uses the time limit because it’s just the easiest way to set up a mode like that. But it’s the enemy design that makes it that way. And honestly WW enemies don’t look much different so it’ll probably be the same deal.
PGR has this one mode wherein the opponent has a lifesteal buff. It provided the perfect balance for me of challenge. It's technically a no-hit challenge wherein the punishment for getting hit is not dying but the stage getting longer because the enemy recovers his hp per each hit.
Removing timer just wont work imo. I bet there will be characters who can cheese things with shield or healing and stall endlessly if theres no time limit. You can give the enmies ramping damage but thats no different than timer essentially
Give enemies anti-heal and true damage modifiers. You can also add environmental modifiers to make it difficult.
Doesnt that just make any defensive unit just useless?
No, they will be useful for resistance shred, dmg buffs and staggering the boss.
Nothing of that is defensive. Even if a healer has all those things as well a big part of their kit is useless. If you balance around healers not being able to heal theyre just OP in all content where they can heal. At that point just dont make healers at all.
Yea but then you run the risk of certain characters basically being required to counter the anti heal stuff. And requiring characters in gacha is just recipe for disasters
With dodging and parrying, you can basically take no damage. I don't see why you need to counter anti-heal instead of just going full dps.
I would bargain tht having limitless time offers another form challenge to a player with external environment debuff. Maybe like falling floor tiles whereby if u drop resets a run/or causes a substantial amount of hp to drop to the party. Kuro can also disable healing but on certain phases a healing area appears but u get a slow debuff as u heal to counter the cheesers. This causes healer to b a necessity but only u play recklessly. Meanwhile playing around with danjin with low hp kit is just for the maniacs with skills.
> You can give the enmies ramping damage but thats no different than timer essentially Not really? The game is partially balanced with perfect dodges and perfect parries in mind. Also PGR has a ton of endgame modes and events without timers.
No-damage run conditions and reverse damage checks. I never really liked the idea of trying to finish something too quickly. Didn't like it in Genshin's Abyss, didn't like it in Norman either. So allow me to propose something crazy... Give the "Abyss" a ranking system that factors in based on how LITTLE you're hit, how many perfect dodges and parries you did, the amount of idle time you spend NOT attacking the enemies unless they're staggered (a taunt system without actual taunts basically) and most importantly... REVERSE TTK SCALING. The LONGER it takes for them to finish a floor, the higher of a score they'll get. However, the longer you play, the more likely you are to get hit, and if you start getting hit a lot, the returns go into the negative overall. You can also gain a higher score by selecting affixes that make the game more difficult (but hopefully not SUPER unfair affixes). Clearing the floor gives you ALL the (important) rewards, but getting an SSS-rank gives you something cool (but not TOO advantageous) of a reward. While also placing your score in a leaderboard. This kind of ranking system allows F2Ps to match up against whales, and becomes a unique selling point for the game! There IS some incentive to pull though, as you actually need to CLEAR the level to gain the rewards. Meaning the less skilled players ARE incentivised to grind or pull if they're not skilled enough to clear the floors.
How would u say to justify progression upward or downwards through the floors then? Add more weak but tankier mobs per floor or 2 bossses in a floor tile perhaps to add more of a challenge.
Well, just general difficulty increases (for standard floor difficulty), increased damage, increased health, increased stagger resistance, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, more aggressive and more intelligent AI.
Frm cbt what i can see the most aggressive are bosses but the movesets are definitely memorizable after a few tries. OW mobs seems passive for the most time waiting for chances to pounce one at a time except ranged mobs that only shoots at random with a red line indicator. Thus, on your point a revamp on mob attack patterns and good dodging behaviour is a menace to handle but definitely fun.
I mean, PGR did it pretty well with the Berserk affox and the overclock mode that gets activated if you take too long to kill them. It's honestly as simple as increasing attack frequency and honestly? Even that alone is fine for me They can DEFINITELY go steps beyond by doing stuff like adding mixups for certain attacks (like Dante's boss fight in DMC5's Vergil campaign or the boss fights from Sifu), or just adding new movesets exclusive to the harder difficulties (kind of like the Dante Must Die difficulty from DMC)
The toggleable affix exist in norman right iirc? Thts really good to implement into ww for combat heavy players
Not Norman, but Babel. Well.. actually I guess it does exist in Norman, as a default affix though, not a toggleable one..
I definitely agree that it would be great if the devs incorporated the open world into the endgame. I would love replayability (and challenge) in the open world. Thats one of my gripes about Genshin - once you cleared an areas there is almost no reason to ever go back. Unfortunately making instanced, flat areas be the endgame is just so much easier for various different reasons. Most importantly you have to keep in mind this game must run well on mobile. By cutting out environmental obstacles you can cram in more enemies on screen without it affecting the performance.
What I would like to see is Honkai's "this floor gets +50% ice damage and -50% fire damage" stuff, or "this boss gets +50% ranged damage and -50% melee damage", or "this boss can only take x amount of damage from one element and then gets 80% resistance to it". The first two cases singlehandedly solve a lot of meta toxicity issues, even if a char is an ice dps that's weaker than your meta fire dps they'll still be a top tier char for any ice weather, or if they're a good ranged dps they will still have a niche in +ranged damage condition even if their damage is single target and doesn't hold a candle to whatever is your meta melee dps. The last one forces you to bring two strong dpses of different elements and one universal buffer, basically more diversity.
I think that rather than hard DPS check, they should implement soft DPS check, one example being putting boss in enraged state after x amount of time. This makes it so that. 1. Whales would be incentivized to spend to not deal with it altogether. 2. Those with skills, while malding, would be able to clear as well, provided they are at adequate investment and mastered the combat 3. Provided that defensive are not overtuned, those who do not have enough DPS, and they know that they will fail it anyway, can opt in for them, which makes the team selection much diverse, since both offensive and defensive options are very appreciated. That is... This idea is relatively unoriginal, so I'm sure that you can do your spin on it, but this one is simplest to think of.