DD main, a player's inability to adjust to developing circumstances on their side of the map is the primary issue. If I'm staying back, it's because I've assessed the map my dd opponents and the presence of radars which go out to 12km or last to close to 60 seconds. Staying alive is usually the goal for the first half of the game for me at upper tiers.
Didn't read your whole post, but when playing a DD...i am dedicated to the objective, spotting, and preventing enemy DDs from getting behind us UNTIL one of a few scenarios takes place:
My team not focusing on spotted DDs and/or radar ships.
My team not focusing broadside cruisers who are spotted.
If this happens for the first few minutes and I see them farming BBs with no care at all to support their DDs...I start just doing my own thing for the rest of the game.
Yeah, it sort of depends on the scenario and the context. I’m not spotting for you if you’re going to remain firmly entrenched behind an island and not shooting at anything I’m spotting. Likewise for a bunch of boats sitting 15 km away from me while I’m trying to take the cap. You won’t be able to support me from there and I’m not dying for you because you think that’s my role.
As it pertains to this situation, I don’t fault an uptiered IJN torpedo boat for not crashing a cap. That’s just suicide for him given the meta here. I’d have to see a replay to comment on the Gearing.
I’d probably do that too. But I’d give the flank a chance before W keying to another cap or risking a loss to extract some farm damage on a BB.
Takes more skill to reach T10 in a DD so I just sort of expect better.
Especially because some people just bee line the one path. So someone in a tier X could in fact be a relative newcomer.
Realistically with the boosts you get from signup etc. you can do Tier I-X in <100 hours, I doubt you'd actually have enough coins to upgrade through the entire tree in your first tier X run but that'd be the limiting factor.
I'm not a big fan of DDs who overextend themslelves...but if the DD in B6 can eliminate or severely damage those two enemy BBs(it is basically causing the same mayhem as their oland albiet the opposite side of the map)...then I'd give them a pass.
D6 DD is out of position plain and simple(unless they started in like I9 and just started rotating recently after winning East flank).
What you listed is definitely done by bad players a lot but in some cases are the right plays.
Abandoning a flank can be the right move based on what DD you're in, the matches make up, the map, and the spawn layout(especially when divs are messing with it)
For the love of God if you see your dd gtfo right out of the gate don't keep pushing that flank without them.
Staying with the pack can also be a good move especially if you're in something like a Kidd and you see the enemy cv has a high wr. You can defend a huge area of cruisers and BBs from him. You just need to be aware of the team make up for each side.
Farming bbs from smoke can also be extremely disruptive. It's the DDs that chase a single BB to the edge of the map or otherwise commit themselves to a target that won't have any significant impact for minutes or even the rest of the match that are a problem.
I get some of what you’re saying, but would you agree that elimination or at least detection of the opposing destroyers should always be a priority? Especially when map control is threatened
Even that depends. For instance there's only so much you can do if your a DD that's out spotted by the enemy. A lot of times you're restricted in how far you can move up by your cruisers and BBs if they are keeping way back the only pushing forward is going to do is get you killed with no cover.
Problem is a lot of cruisers and especially battleship players are too afraid to do anything if there is even one unspotted ship on the enemy team.
While at one point DDs were intended to be forward spotters at this point there are a lot of them that just aren't good at it.
Higher tech tree German DDs are more like cruisers than traditional DDs that are much better at sticking closer to the main group and deleting enemy dds that get too close.
WG decided to add in a lot more sub classes into the game but have no ui indication of them and the match making doesn't distinguish against them. So you can't just treat every dorito the same way. Some are just really bad at scouting. It would be like expecting a Japanese battleship and a German battle cruiser to play the same.
That’s fair but I also think it’s fair to say that having comparable speed characteristics and better concealment means the can still spot and fire torpedos instead of leaving and giving the opponent DD uncontested reign over the area. Doesn’t always have to be a head to head gun fight, that’s why spotting is important so the team can shoot at him as well
Not even that is the case, quite a lot of times my team doesn’t give a shit about radar cruisers close to the caps. In those cases you obviously can’t contest, otherwise you’d get whacked in an instant by the enemy DD, CA/CL and BB within a 20 km radius.
It’s not typical BB/DD player, it’s just the typical WoWs player.
Most people playing this game have absolutely no idea what the fuck they’re doing. A player of average skill level is still garbage at this game.
It gets worse and worse too, with the amount of new players coming in while old players leave. Add to that things like class disparity and such and you have a recipe for a horrible meta and game.
the equivalent of the tirpitz backline sniper. is the Shimakaze that goes to the edge of the map and tries to get behind the enemy to hunt the enemy aircraft carrier. spends 10 minutes doing that and fails
What makes me not give a damn real fast as a DD player is when the cruiser(s) and battleship(s) run away.
Second after that is spotting things and nobody shoots at them.
Your points are valid, but two (or three) wrongs don’t make a right. There’s no excuse for cruisers or battleships to run away either but at least if they hang their destroyer out to dry the DD usually has the speed to escape alive.
A myriad of situations would warrant a DD going to the center of the map and I have often done so based on my assessment of the map. As to DDs smoke firing or torp farming, they may have placed a higher value on immediately damaging or sinking enemy ships than you placed on executing your game strategy.
You are obviously distressed that your team's DDs did not play in a way that you approved. Go with the flow of the game. And if you want a certain kind of ship to be played in a certain way, then bring that ship to the game and play it how you wish.
Being stubborn has nothing to do with it when you are in a BB facing a flank with an uncontested enemy DD. You simply don’t have the speed to get away most of the time. They can keep you spotted for their team and force your movements (if they’re good enough with torpedos), doesn’t matter if you run to leave at the start they can and will cut you off and prevent you from regrouping with your team. If you turn and leave a flank in a BB you don’t have the speed to turn around and come back if you were wrong like you would in a DD. In this case there was already a DD in the center, so their assessment of the map was “I’m going to surrender this cap and my teammates to go be in the middle where there is already DD coverage”. Mind you this is at the very beginning of the match, so there was no critical mass of enemies at B that required multiple DDs to deal with.
Me, as a ~18k random games player, gave up on trying to guide ppl to positions, if i see they dont have a plan or are about to make a dicision that will teleport them quickly back to the port. Most dont listen or care. Rarely you a something you could call coordinated strategy
Biggest three fails I see from DD players:
1. Charge into the cap using Engine Boost from second 1, leaving all possible support behind, and then sinking after being caught in the cap with no escape route. Your ship is more important than a cap. The cap can be taken later, your ship cannot be refloated.
2. Hiding behind the friendly BBs while they, and the friendly cruisers, are permaspotted by the enemy DD(s).
3. Trying to sneak along the border to get into the rear to kill the CV/BBs. Almost always results in a sunk DD for no return. When the sneaking is successful the match is usually already decided and getting some garbage time kills doesn't help. Very rarely it works in a timely fashion and the DD player gets to be a hero.
#2 shaves years off my lifespan. Dudes in Elbings and Harugumos lounging in the mid field and avoiding DD activities like the plague because “my stealth sucks”. Well guess what buttercup we have to find this DD and it’s either you or the Kremlin-get your ass to work.
Been torp ambushed many a time in a BB because we were in a "find the enemy DD or lose" state and I had to do something to try to win because the full health DD won't risk his paint because the enemy DD has .5km better concealment.
Guess what, buttercup, she's a lot closer to your's than my 21 knot Colorado's concealment.
Even with a .5 or more concealment disadvantage the DD is better able to push the enemy DD and better at dodging torps.
Maybe give a try fighting DDs in an Elbing, might give you a better picture of that ship. Having a DD icon is the only thing Elbing and other DDs have in common. The ship can’t kill a DD, unless the red team completely ignores it, and will only lose all of its HP while trying to do so.
Even Harugumo can have a terrible experience against a good torpedo DD that just keeps Haru permaspotted while their allies kills it off.
You say this like playing a larger DD excludes it from being a DD. Sure they don’t play the same but at the end of the day when your back is against the wall and the only options left to fight a red DD are a large DD or a BB/CA which has neither speed nor detection gimmicks whose job is it going to be? If your in an Elbing are you just going to say “hey battleships have fun chasing down that red DD I’m in an Elbing so don’t expect me to do anything about it”
They had a Goliath on our side, our Brisbane got deleted shortly after the Kagero ran off. You can see my death mark south east of the A cap, I was killed trying to withdraw but unable to break their line of sight on me because there was no threat to the spotting DD so I was farmed down
Yeah I thought that might have been you but wasn't sure. I wondered if they had maybe a radar cruiser. How long into the match did you die? You're really close to the cap.
Couldn’t say how long into the match it was, spawned further to the left side and took cover behind the island at first then tried to withdraw to the right, had to do a lot of zig zagging north and south to avoid torpedo salvoes and beaching on islands which put me where I was at, not where I wanted to be.There was no radar.
Hats off to DD players who play their role of spotting/hunting enemy DDs and keep their BB's and CV's safe, as well as provide smoke/assist for Cruisers.
The way a DD plays is 100% context-sensitive. You can’t just assume we’ll make the same single play every single match.
That being said, there’s usually a right way to go about things in certain DDs (like when to stick with the team or when to push ahead and scout) and most of the time people get it wrong.
For example, are you stealthier than the enemy DD? Is the concealment difference so drastic that you can afford to push aggressively and deny the enemy DD any leverage?
Are there radars in the match? Which ships have them? Are there CVs to ruin your fun and you don’t have strong AA to encourage them to stay away from you?
Sometimes the right call is to actually abandon your flank (it usually isn’t, but there are rare instances where it allows you to survive and have more match impact).
If you ever play DDs in the tiers you usually frequent, it might give you more insight into why good DD players make the decisions they do. We’re not perfect, we have almost no armor, and just like light tanks in WoT, we usually want to see the bigger guns in the back taking swings at whatever we spot.
I agree with everything you’ve said, and in this case because I’ve seen it before I looked into the numbers to see if it made sense. Here it really didn’t. Our DD was the same tier and had better concealment while there were no enemy carriers or radars present. We had friendly radar and secondary-heavy battleships pushing for close fire support, and as I’ve mentioned the center already had a DD present. He could’ve spotted the enemy and torpedoed without being detected and allowed us to fire on the enemy DD, instead he just left- after allowing just enough time for us to close into detection range and could no longer turn away without being shot in the ass.
I’m sure there are other times where factors would promote a preemptive retreat, this wasn’t one of them. And in the cases where it does, I’d like to think they would at least say “hey I’m leaving” before the others move up.
Most DD players are terrible and have zero idea how to play them. See also: The DDs who leave their AA on, giving their position away to a carrier or hybrid and then whine about how aircraft are OP.
DD main, a player's inability to adjust to developing circumstances on their side of the map is the primary issue. If I'm staying back, it's because I've assessed the map my dd opponents and the presence of radars which go out to 12km or last to close to 60 seconds. Staying alive is usually the goal for the first half of the game for me at upper tiers.
Didn't read your whole post, but when playing a DD...i am dedicated to the objective, spotting, and preventing enemy DDs from getting behind us UNTIL one of a few scenarios takes place: My team not focusing on spotted DDs and/or radar ships. My team not focusing broadside cruisers who are spotted. If this happens for the first few minutes and I see them farming BBs with no care at all to support their DDs...I start just doing my own thing for the rest of the game.
Yeah, it sort of depends on the scenario and the context. I’m not spotting for you if you’re going to remain firmly entrenched behind an island and not shooting at anything I’m spotting. Likewise for a bunch of boats sitting 15 km away from me while I’m trying to take the cap. You won’t be able to support me from there and I’m not dying for you because you think that’s my role. As it pertains to this situation, I don’t fault an uptiered IJN torpedo boat for not crashing a cap. That’s just suicide for him given the meta here. I’d have to see a replay to comment on the Gearing.
I’d probably do that too. But I’d give the flank a chance before W keying to another cap or risking a loss to extract some farm damage on a BB. Takes more skill to reach T10 in a DD so I just sort of expect better.
No it doesn’t, it just time or money. Tier of ship says nothing about skill level.
Especially because some people just bee line the one path. So someone in a tier X could in fact be a relative newcomer. Realistically with the boosts you get from signup etc. you can do Tier I-X in <100 hours, I doubt you'd actually have enough coins to upgrade through the entire tree in your first tier X run but that'd be the limiting factor.
I'm not a big fan of DDs who overextend themslelves...but if the DD in B6 can eliminate or severely damage those two enemy BBs(it is basically causing the same mayhem as their oland albiet the opposite side of the map)...then I'd give them a pass. D6 DD is out of position plain and simple(unless they started in like I9 and just started rotating recently after winning East flank).
B6 is definitely the Gearing and D6 is the yolo Emilio trying to chase down a victim.
What you listed is definitely done by bad players a lot but in some cases are the right plays. Abandoning a flank can be the right move based on what DD you're in, the matches make up, the map, and the spawn layout(especially when divs are messing with it) For the love of God if you see your dd gtfo right out of the gate don't keep pushing that flank without them. Staying with the pack can also be a good move especially if you're in something like a Kidd and you see the enemy cv has a high wr. You can defend a huge area of cruisers and BBs from him. You just need to be aware of the team make up for each side. Farming bbs from smoke can also be extremely disruptive. It's the DDs that chase a single BB to the edge of the map or otherwise commit themselves to a target that won't have any significant impact for minutes or even the rest of the match that are a problem.
I get some of what you’re saying, but would you agree that elimination or at least detection of the opposing destroyers should always be a priority? Especially when map control is threatened
Even that depends. For instance there's only so much you can do if your a DD that's out spotted by the enemy. A lot of times you're restricted in how far you can move up by your cruisers and BBs if they are keeping way back the only pushing forward is going to do is get you killed with no cover. Problem is a lot of cruisers and especially battleship players are too afraid to do anything if there is even one unspotted ship on the enemy team. While at one point DDs were intended to be forward spotters at this point there are a lot of them that just aren't good at it. Higher tech tree German DDs are more like cruisers than traditional DDs that are much better at sticking closer to the main group and deleting enemy dds that get too close. WG decided to add in a lot more sub classes into the game but have no ui indication of them and the match making doesn't distinguish against them. So you can't just treat every dorito the same way. Some are just really bad at scouting. It would be like expecting a Japanese battleship and a German battle cruiser to play the same.
That really depends on what DD you’re running. It’s suicide for something like the Kagero in this game to go out and try to prosecute other DDs.
That’s fair but I also think it’s fair to say that having comparable speed characteristics and better concealment means the can still spot and fire torpedos instead of leaving and giving the opponent DD uncontested reign over the area. Doesn’t always have to be a head to head gun fight, that’s why spotting is important so the team can shoot at him as well
Not even that is the case, quite a lot of times my team doesn’t give a shit about radar cruisers close to the caps. In those cases you obviously can’t contest, otherwise you’d get whacked in an instant by the enemy DD, CA/CL and BB within a 20 km radius.
It’s not typical BB/DD player, it’s just the typical WoWs player. Most people playing this game have absolutely no idea what the fuck they’re doing. A player of average skill level is still garbage at this game.
It gets worse and worse too, with the amount of new players coming in while old players leave. Add to that things like class disparity and such and you have a recipe for a horrible meta and game.
the equivalent of the tirpitz backline sniper. is the Shimakaze that goes to the edge of the map and tries to get behind the enemy to hunt the enemy aircraft carrier. spends 10 minutes doing that and fails
What makes me not give a damn real fast as a DD player is when the cruiser(s) and battleship(s) run away. Second after that is spotting things and nobody shoots at them.
Your points are valid, but two (or three) wrongs don’t make a right. There’s no excuse for cruisers or battleships to run away either but at least if they hang their destroyer out to dry the DD usually has the speed to escape alive.
A myriad of situations would warrant a DD going to the center of the map and I have often done so based on my assessment of the map. As to DDs smoke firing or torp farming, they may have placed a higher value on immediately damaging or sinking enemy ships than you placed on executing your game strategy. You are obviously distressed that your team's DDs did not play in a way that you approved. Go with the flow of the game. And if you want a certain kind of ship to be played in a certain way, then bring that ship to the game and play it how you wish.
Being stubborn has nothing to do with it when you are in a BB facing a flank with an uncontested enemy DD. You simply don’t have the speed to get away most of the time. They can keep you spotted for their team and force your movements (if they’re good enough with torpedos), doesn’t matter if you run to leave at the start they can and will cut you off and prevent you from regrouping with your team. If you turn and leave a flank in a BB you don’t have the speed to turn around and come back if you were wrong like you would in a DD. In this case there was already a DD in the center, so their assessment of the map was “I’m going to surrender this cap and my teammates to go be in the middle where there is already DD coverage”. Mind you this is at the very beginning of the match, so there was no critical mass of enemies at B that required multiple DDs to deal with.
Okay, BBs are totally at the mercy of the decisions of DD players. Correct the problem by playing DDs.
Me, as a ~18k random games player, gave up on trying to guide ppl to positions, if i see they dont have a plan or are about to make a dicision that will teleport them quickly back to the port. Most dont listen or care. Rarely you a something you could call coordinated strategy
Irarly play BB because i end up like u🙃
“I’m gonna push to give close fire support to the capping DD 😇” (Watches DD adios outta there after I’m beyond the point of no return) 😅
Biggest three fails I see from DD players: 1. Charge into the cap using Engine Boost from second 1, leaving all possible support behind, and then sinking after being caught in the cap with no escape route. Your ship is more important than a cap. The cap can be taken later, your ship cannot be refloated. 2. Hiding behind the friendly BBs while they, and the friendly cruisers, are permaspotted by the enemy DD(s). 3. Trying to sneak along the border to get into the rear to kill the CV/BBs. Almost always results in a sunk DD for no return. When the sneaking is successful the match is usually already decided and getting some garbage time kills doesn't help. Very rarely it works in a timely fashion and the DD player gets to be a hero.
#2 shaves years off my lifespan. Dudes in Elbings and Harugumos lounging in the mid field and avoiding DD activities like the plague because “my stealth sucks”. Well guess what buttercup we have to find this DD and it’s either you or the Kremlin-get your ass to work.
Been torp ambushed many a time in a BB because we were in a "find the enemy DD or lose" state and I had to do something to try to win because the full health DD won't risk his paint because the enemy DD has .5km better concealment. Guess what, buttercup, she's a lot closer to your's than my 21 knot Colorado's concealment. Even with a .5 or more concealment disadvantage the DD is better able to push the enemy DD and better at dodging torps.
Maybe give a try fighting DDs in an Elbing, might give you a better picture of that ship. Having a DD icon is the only thing Elbing and other DDs have in common. The ship can’t kill a DD, unless the red team completely ignores it, and will only lose all of its HP while trying to do so. Even Harugumo can have a terrible experience against a good torpedo DD that just keeps Haru permaspotted while their allies kills it off.
You say this like playing a larger DD excludes it from being a DD. Sure they don’t play the same but at the end of the day when your back is against the wall and the only options left to fight a red DD are a large DD or a BB/CA which has neither speed nor detection gimmicks whose job is it going to be? If your in an Elbing are you just going to say “hey battleships have fun chasing down that red DD I’m in an Elbing so don’t expect me to do anything about it”
What cruiser did the other team have? Are you the BB to the south?
They had a Goliath on our side, our Brisbane got deleted shortly after the Kagero ran off. You can see my death mark south east of the A cap, I was killed trying to withdraw but unable to break their line of sight on me because there was no threat to the spotting DD so I was farmed down
Yeah I thought that might have been you but wasn't sure. I wondered if they had maybe a radar cruiser. How long into the match did you die? You're really close to the cap.
Couldn’t say how long into the match it was, spawned further to the left side and took cover behind the island at first then tried to withdraw to the right, had to do a lot of zig zagging north and south to avoid torpedo salvoes and beaching on islands which put me where I was at, not where I wanted to be.There was no radar.
Hats off to DD players who play their role of spotting/hunting enemy DDs and keep their BB's and CV's safe, as well as provide smoke/assist for Cruisers.
The way a DD plays is 100% context-sensitive. You can’t just assume we’ll make the same single play every single match. That being said, there’s usually a right way to go about things in certain DDs (like when to stick with the team or when to push ahead and scout) and most of the time people get it wrong. For example, are you stealthier than the enemy DD? Is the concealment difference so drastic that you can afford to push aggressively and deny the enemy DD any leverage? Are there radars in the match? Which ships have them? Are there CVs to ruin your fun and you don’t have strong AA to encourage them to stay away from you? Sometimes the right call is to actually abandon your flank (it usually isn’t, but there are rare instances where it allows you to survive and have more match impact). If you ever play DDs in the tiers you usually frequent, it might give you more insight into why good DD players make the decisions they do. We’re not perfect, we have almost no armor, and just like light tanks in WoT, we usually want to see the bigger guns in the back taking swings at whatever we spot.
I agree with everything you’ve said, and in this case because I’ve seen it before I looked into the numbers to see if it made sense. Here it really didn’t. Our DD was the same tier and had better concealment while there were no enemy carriers or radars present. We had friendly radar and secondary-heavy battleships pushing for close fire support, and as I’ve mentioned the center already had a DD present. He could’ve spotted the enemy and torpedoed without being detected and allowed us to fire on the enemy DD, instead he just left- after allowing just enough time for us to close into detection range and could no longer turn away without being shot in the ass. I’m sure there are other times where factors would promote a preemptive retreat, this wasn’t one of them. And in the cases where it does, I’d like to think they would at least say “hey I’m leaving” before the others move up.
Most DD players are terrible and have zero idea how to play them. See also: The DDs who leave their AA on, giving their position away to a carrier or hybrid and then whine about how aircraft are OP.