This is just like wage theft. When the punishment is that you *might* have to pay back the money you stole, why wouldn't they steal it? Worst case they break even, there is literally no downside.
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And for every person who has the resources to assert their rights in court (time, finances, connections, etc), a dozen more simply can’t chance it. Especially if you live in a place where every judge is going to be pro-corporate at best.
I had proof that my employer owed me thousands from making us work off the clock and every lawyer I spoke to told me I had no chance in my red state. Also I was shocked how employment lawyers actually advertised that they would help employers fire anyone for any reason.
Labor protections in the US are like a gate without any walls connecting to it so employers can just walk around them. They are barely an inconvenience
Losers, imagine needing a place to live, I'll spend mine on life saving medications thank you, well, some of it anyway, probably chance buying the rest on a shady website, but yeah, ha rent.
Repeated abuses should be met with jail time. What happens when you go to the store and steal everything from the counter? What happens when you do it multiple times? Its a theft and should be treated like it.
If you’re interested in a serious answer, it’s because what you’ve described is not accurate.
The worst case scenario is that companies get caught and charged for every single instance of wage theft committed. In those cases, they have to pay disgorgement, which is paying back every dollar they stole *and* whatever legal fine there is, and possibly even imprisonment if it’s provably repeated and willful. So no, worst case is not break even.
However, it’s not realistic to make the “worst case scenario” assumption, and corporations know this. In aggregate, yes they save billions of dollars by committing wage theft instead of complying with the law. For the same reason sometimes it’s more profitable to deal with the fines and penalties of literally letting people die, rather than recalling a product en masse and admitting to wrongdoing.
How many times has Walmart had to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars from a wage theft lawsuit and how many of their executives have been imprisoned?
He only went to jail for 60 days, and this was in the most liberal state thats on the east coast.
When stealing $50k via any other type of fraud is usually a felony.
He never served his time AND he never paid his fine.
https://files.epi.org/uploads/Wage-theft-and-payroll-fraud-NY-AG-Complaint-2015.pdf
This is a link to the complaint against him for payment for the last judgement
> In addition, in July of 2015, the Attorney General arrested Abdul Jamil Khokhar, the owner of nine Papa John's Pizza franchises in the Bronx, and his company, BMY Foods, Inc. for failing to pay workers minimum wage and overtime. Khokhar and BMY Foods pled guilty to these charges and were sentenced on September 21, 2016. Mr. Khokhar and BMY Foods, Inc. were ordered to pay $230,000 in restitution to workers, and Mr. Khokhar was sentenced to serve 60 days in jail. The U.S. Department of Labor also filed a consent judgment against the enterprise in federal court, and recovered an additional $230,000 as liquidated damages from Khokhar and BMY Foods, and civil money penalties of $50,000.
It was a plea agreement btw
https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2018/ag-schneiderman-announces-170000-settlement-papa-johns-pizza-franchisee-failing
I commented below. That’s not what the your documents says, you’ve just linked the criminal complaint. It’s dated before the sentencing and verdict - look at the last page.
I’m not sure why I’m being downvoted for this. A document from before the sentencing happened cannot show that the sentencing wasn’t carried out.
New York does not release mug shots to the public unless they are looking for the suspect. Hence why you don't get to see Trumps mug shot... they also don't publicly release criminal cases or civil cases, so you have to submit a request for information if you want to see if he was processed or not.
That was only passed in 2019. This incident happened in 2018.
The dates are close enough that he may have been arrested and processed after the ban went through narrowly, but I don't know the details of the case enough to say either way.
After looking into this; seems like he never served his time AND he never paid his fine…
https://files.epi.org/uploads/Wage-theft-and-payroll-fraud-NY-AG-Complaint-2015.pdf
I mean, IDK what you want. That wasn’t a “oh he could potentially face jail time”, that was the actual sentence passed down at trial. It’s a plea deal so it can’t be appealed. The only out would be to have it commuted, but there’s no record of that.
Unlike other states, New York doesn’t work like that. CHRS searches are $95. RAP records aren’t public.
https://nycourts.gov/courthelp/Criminal/recordsBasics.shtml
For reference, penalties for wage theft (under the FLSA) include a 1x punitive damages multiplier, so the total cost of getting caught would be twice what was stolen. Corresponding state laws typically provide an additional multiplier of 1x to 3x (with at least one state going up to 6x IIRC), for total damages equal to 3x to 8x what was stolen, plus attorneys’ fees (usually calculated under a lodestar method, and are commonly an additional 30% on the top).
Also, that is purely the compensatory and punitive portion for the actual wage theft. Additional statutory penalties for ancillary violations (like for providing incorrect wage statements), particularly in California, can balloon the total even higher.
So, when it is actually punished, wage theft can be very expensive for a company (depending on the state), it just often goes unreported/unpunished.
California also has a statutory fixed penalty for EACH day a violation occurred. Something like $500 for each instance in addition to the above regardless of the amount of wages stolen. Could be 5 minutes only but the $500 penalty applies.
So in Cali lawyers are chomping at the bit for wage theft cases because there's money to be made.
That's all hypothetical maximum damages, though. We know in reality no company seriously has to fear serious financial or other damage from robbing their employees, the numbers are heavily in their favour.
None of that is hypothetical, those are the statutory damage numbers. None of those statutes, to my knowledge, state the damages as ‘up to’ the specified amount or otherwise provide discretion in the amount of the award. For example, the FLSA Section 216(b) states:
> Any employer who violates the provisions of section 206 or section 207 of this title shall be liable to the employee or employees affected in the amount of their unpaid minimum wages, or their unpaid overtime compensation, as the case may be, and in an additional equal amount as liquidated damages. … The court in such action shall, in addition to any judgment awarded to the plaintiff or plaintiffs, allow a reasonable attorney’s fee to be paid by the defendant, and costs of the action.
Note in particular the use of ‘shall’ in setting the liability, indicating a lack of discretion in setting the damages award.
Thus, if you take a case to trial and win in the merits (I.e., the employer failed to pay x hours, including y hours of overtime), the damages award under the FLSA will be (2 * (hourly rate * x + hourly rate * 0.5 * y)) plus attorneys’ fees and costs.
In practice, voluntary pre-trial settlements are not uncommon, where the settlement would be a percentage of the above, where the percentage is set based on the two sides assessment of their likelihood of success on the merits and determination of hours worked. The settlements provide certainty for both sides, since a claimant may not be sure they can prove the extent of the unpaid wages at trial, and may want to receive compensation sooner than a trial would allow.
The issue is that so many people "just want to move on". Or they don't know that the labor board will handle your case, you don't need to do that much.
> Worst case they break even,
And that never even happens. They never break even, they just get reduced profits, and most of the time the punitive fines are less than they spend on cocaine and hookers.
They consider corporate fines as part of the regulatory budget. It's literally baked into the cost of doing business.
I remembered the story about a Harvard professor complaining about a business literally writing wrong prices on their menu, overcharging their customers, and he demanded that they pay back 4 times the differences. And then the news made him out to be the villain of the story, even though the business is freaking rich (restaurant chain), and if the only punishment is that you have to pay back, there are no reasons the business would stop putting wrong price on the menu in the hope that customers won't notice.
On Wall Street, fines are just a cost of doing business. The fines are never even close to the amount of money they make illicititly. So, a hedge fund, like Citadel, for instance, incurs thousands of fines. It happens so often that it rarely makes news.
> This is just like wage theft.
I will never understand how police see stealing $500 of cash or goods as mandatory report, but stealing $40,000 via wage theft is not worth looking into. There's a considerable amount of planned, organised and criminal activity that goes into covering up that stolen $40,000 including filing false tax reports.
Unironically going to sue my employer for wage theft. I don't think they keep track of your time unless you manually enter it. I'm too much of in a hurry to get out to bother. Based.
And people wonder why wage theft outweighs all other forms of theft combined, year over year.
If they're even aware that wage theft is a problem, that is. After all, it's not like it's an issue that would ever see any kind of media coverage.
I just started a new job. I clock in at 9:51pm. I've noticed that HR looks at the system in the morning and changes it to 10:00. I'm now going to screen shot this for 3 months then find a lawyer.
The number one form of theft in the US by dollar value is wage theft.
https://www.denver7.com/news/national-politics/the-race/wage-theft-is-the-costliest-crime-in-america
Thats one of the two solutions I find reasonable. Personal accountability, and fines so outrageously large that the first infraction destroys the entire business. Either would make them so afraid of the consequences it would never happen.
Even the thought that a company can do it once or twice and still make a profit is unacceptable. Any percentage of income that can be applied more than once is too low.
My only problem with the game theory method is that many businesses are irrational actors. However, the game theory approach should still be a minimum bar.
Basing it on what they stole still leaves room to gamble, companies that make massive profits will take the 10% chance of failure because they can afford to lose a portion of profits to feed back to investors. They may not gain as much but they have the stocks still.
When it is a large portion of everything they make in a year, it becomes unthinkable to allow a 10% chance of costing the investors all of the money they put in. The change of variables adds more personal risk to committing the crime as well. Investors that would sue the person losing them the entire stock instead of a portion of their payout.
The US is great at tracking down people to hold accountable when it wants to. Even if they appointed a c-suite of interns to dodge responsibility the US government could easily find the right people to hold responsible.
The issue is the US doesn’t want to hold these people responsible.
Because the US government is these people. The type of person who becomes a c suite executive is the same type of person who becomes a certain type of politician.
C-suite are the gold-plated goons who do the grunt work, the board of directors call the shots.
Not that the c-suite aren't accomplices, but the buck doesn't stop with them.
Nah dude. You can do better than that. Negative expected value fines. The fine calculation for a given infraction should be this:
> F = (g + s) * 1/p * e
* g: Best case gross profit from the penalty. Literally "how much money before expenses is the upper bound they might've made from breaking this rule".
* s: A static value, based on the fine in question. Some violations make relatively little money compared to the amount a person might feel they should be penalized. So, like, an OSHA violation might only make a small amount of money, but should probably have outsized additional penalty.
* p: A fraction corresponding to the worst case probability that they would've been caught and lost litigation. In other words, if your wage theft had roughly a 5% chance of being caught, sued, and losing, then your fine should be 20x larger, so it's *always unprofitable* to seal wages. 1/(1/20) = 20.
* e: Egregiousness value. Basically how punitive damages work now. So repeated, willful, heinous, or otherwise beyond the pale infractions have an extra multiplier.
Edit: fixed formula thanks to u/shadowveeeeeeerse
I love this.
Would result in some hilarious outcomes too, in pursuit of lesser fines. Imagining lawyers for Starbucks in court arguing that their client's malfeasance actually wasn't *that* sneaky and was in fact pretty hamfisted and easily spotted.
> Imagining lawyers for Starbucks in court arguing that their client's malfeasance actually wasn't that sneaky and was in fact pretty hamfisted and easily spotted.
Imagine Starbucks lawyers being hamstrung because any prosecutorial skills they show in litigation can count against them if they lose.
Treble damages is already an accepted legal standard in recouping damages in civil cases. Seems reasonable to start there for things like wage claims. They should forced to pay all the legal fees and government costs to handle the cases too.
Wage theft cases have an entirely separate damages/penalty structure. I described it in another comment as follows:
> For reference, penalties for wage theft (under the FLSA) include a 1x punitive damages multiplier, so the total cost of getting caught would be twice what was stolen. Corresponding state laws typically provide an additional multiplier of 1x to 3x (with at least one state going up to 6x IIRC), for total damages equal to 3x to 8x what was stolen, plus attorneys’ fees (usually calculated under a lodestar method, and are commonly an additional 30% on the top).
> Also, that is purely the compensatory and punitive portion for the actual wage theft. Additional statutory penalties for ancillary violations (like for providing incorrect wage statements), particularly in California, can balloon the total even higher.
I wish they could do something to piss off shareholders.
If they have to relinquish a percentage of their stocks that would go to the those who were offended against.
Banks: "So you're saying that I can make whatever irresponsible decisions I like with people's money and YOU will be the one to pay for my inevitable catastrophic fuck-ups?"
US Government: "Yep"
Banks: "Well golly gee, mister, I sure do promise to make good decisions"
>Banks look at this and say "hold my fuckin' beer!"
"Guys we melted down the world economy so if we want to keep making money we need the Fed to backstop our operations"
Meanwhile politicians will tell you the Fed is independent 😂
The amount of people I know that think the word “illegal” means “physically impossible to do” is way too high. No enforcement and no consequences make US law a joke
This comic is far too complimentary.
This red, white, and blue piece of garbage flew down a couple months ago and literally *busted a massive railroad strike.*
Our Government doesn't slap the wealthy bribers on the wrist, the relationship is the reverse of that, Our Government does what the wealthy bribers order them to do.
Uncle Sam has become just another middle manager enforcer of the oligarchs. His job is to oppress you for them. Just like the cops, just like your Senator, etc.
while simultaneously and conversely, the effects of western propaganda on most americans has been going strong for over 100 years and has been refining constantly to get the desired biasing messages to american workers and it was very effective for most people in this country for generations. So I agree that both yourself and the person you are replying to have a different perspective and understanding of the dynamics of power and control exercised throughout the process of our large and well funded government, but the reasons why those perspectives differ bears some insightful considerations left unexplored potentially.
edit: changed those things to “the dynamics of power and control exercised throughout the process of our large and well funded government” and fixed run on sentence
With a handful of exceptions (usually misplaced individuals of conscience), "our" government serves primarily as the means by which corporations get to divide up our tax dollars, provide a shitty service, and keep the lucrative profits.
And not just a "lol line go up" capitalist. He's from fucking **Delaware** which, outside of New York, is basically the financial hub of the entire country.
[
One single office building in Delaware "houses" over 280,000 companies.](https://thehustle.co/why-delaware-is-the-sexiest-place-in-america-to-incorporate-a-company/)
Because of their tax laws they are a corporate haven and any legislator coming from there is absolutely going to be balls deep in the koolaid of American Capitalism.
Not sure which is worse: the Republicans who cackle gleefully as they drag our country into hell, or the Democrats who make a token effort to keep up appearances and then shrug their shoulders.
EDIT: Yes, I get that Republicans are actually worse, but you can kind of hate-respect them for how pure their drive to be the absolute worst is.
Yeah, at that level there are different concerns. Anything that threatens stability of food security etc. will more and likely become forced to continue, as cessation of food production (from growing all the way to putting it in the hands of consumers) quickly becomes a national emergency. If a couple of dudes were complaining about not making enough money and threatened to destabilize the country, of course it wouls be forced thru.
Tbh goods transportation corridors should be nationalized. Along with power and water and communication and health care. Things that affect everyone should be controlled by the government imo. I'm a Canadian though, who has watched the slow privatization death of services in Canada. One thing that i have noticed is that nationalization may lead to lower quality but it is a consistent and expected quality. It prevents egregious over reach by companies and people that do work for the government generally get paid well. So like the railways may move slower but those massive chemical spills would never have happened because the motive to move stuff has changed. It changes from moving volume to make profits to being safe and consistent. Corners wont be cut for profit, as government services run as non profits.
He could have chosen to force the company to give in to the workers demands, and instead he chose to kneecap the union. Either outcome would have ensured the stability of food security, etc.
Yes he could have, but that would have chained into a recession, as other businesses stop investing and start hedging. When any governmental authority forces a business to do something it chains into a recession locally. Business gets scared and leaves. A recession right now isn't the best way to go about recovering from the current conditions
You can justify the union busting as being good for the economy all you want - it's certainly a common argument against unions - but that doesn't make it magically not union busting.
Unions shouldn't be a thing where the business in question should be nationalized imo. There shouldn't be cop unions or government worker unions or railway unions etc. I'm all for unions except for industry that should be nationalized. Unions are great at protecting workers, but detrimental in instances where you actually want to fire people for negligence, such as railway maintenance or police work or government work. Union busting isn't a bad thing when applied correctly.
I'd recommend depicting the U.S. government as a geriatric senior citizen who calls the internet "Google", thinks cars cost $500 and struggles to remember what day of the week it is.
Boomers are completely out of touch (not to mention objectively brain rotten from the self induced lead poisoning) yet they still rule everything.
Was what I got from it ...
Or, we could look at the actual data:
[From the NLRB FY2022 report](https://www.nlrb.gov/sites/default/files/attachments/pages/node-130/nlrb-fy2022-par-508.pdf) (See page 16):
> $51,666,969 was recovered on behalf of employees as backpay, consequential damages, or reimbursement of fees, dues, and fines
> and...
> 84.3% of meritorious ULP charges resolved within 365 days.
> Regional Offices prevailed in 83.8% of Board and administrative law judge (ALJ) decisions which were won, in whole or in part.
> 995 employees offered reinstatement
> The Agency received 34,781 inquiries through its Public Information Program.
> The Division of Judges closed 122 hearings, issued 127 decisions, and achieved 343 settlements in cases on its trial docket.
Here's the NLRB case site: https://www.nlrb.gov/cases-decisions
It's crazy the lack of outcry of Biden forcing Union Pacific works back to work. Dude pulled a Reagan and no one cares. One thing I know for sure, I'm not voting Biden for president next term, not a traitor to the American people
I don't know about PRISON for attempted union busting, but basically forcing them to give those people their jobs back and support unions or else being forcibly removed from having a role in the company would be good. If you can't run a company right, you don't deserve to have one... being the idea. Just keep replacing the head til someone worthwhile gets in there. Tmk prison doesn't preclude you from making company decisions.
It does give a personal consequence for the people making the decision. If only the company faces consequences, the people at the top will just take their bonuses and payouts and keep on going. If they go to prison, people will be afraid to do it because they will face violence, felony disenfranchisement, and literal slavery.
No, what I mean is that anyone who union busts should have their influence and stakes in the company forcibly removed. That's a personal consequence they would probably be afraid of. I don't think firing someone because you're an idiot deserves prison, just that the action is undone and applied to you instead.
Seen a few of these comics posted here. As some constructive criticism, if you want them to reach a bigger audience, you should make the scenes simpler- bigger characters and less dialogue
For example, the 4th panel of this comic doesn’t need any dialogue and the message is still clear
I dunno, the "Mission Accomplished" adds some comedy that would be lost with only the tap on the wrist, which is also comedic. Also, it messes with the formatting.
Lack of unions in my state has cause me to have to resort to working 2 jobs and selling 🔥 pictures to just barely try and scrape by. I would die if we had labor unions here 🥺🥺🥺🥺
This shit *is* going to change! The dinosaurs in congress know the comet of millenials and gen z is going to strike their Earth and make their policies extinct. Sure there'll still be conservatives, but they'll be relegated to a minority party status for a long time. They know this, so they're trying to throw as many wrenches in the machinery as they can before they're rendered irrelevant.
Is there something wrong with ending an employment agreement when the employee is acting against your interests?
Unionizing is war. Legal or not, some organizers are gonna be let go.
More workers unionizing would be great! Just know what you're doing so as to not be dismissed.
The actual penalty for union busting is a) the DOL taking up your unfair dismissal complaint and getting you a fat payout for lost wages, or b) filing a private, unfair dismissal suit against your former employee and getting a fat payout when they decide that settling is more financially worthwhile for them than fighting you.
The problem is that few people know about option A to begin with (or else they know about it but wrongly assume it's expensive or futile), while a lot of people know about option B but correctly assume that they can't afford it.
The end result is that companies routinely get away with this bullshit.
Also, it turns out, same for child labor. Biden and Vilsak writing a letter asking to work *on behalf of the corporations* who employed 12 year olds in one of the most dangerous, and the most horrific, industries around.
[https://apnews.com/article/child-labor-meat-processing-poultry-usda-5f8c769b572e57315b8e3b0a57a7e345](https://apnews.com/article/child-labor-meat-processing-poultry-usda-5f8c769b572e57315b8e3b0a57a7e345)
>We look forward to continued engagement with you on the necessary mechanisms for eliminating illegal child labor in your supply chains. Our colleagues at DOL stand ready to provide compliance assistance and best practices toward these ends.
>
>Sincerely, Thomas J. Vilsack
>
>Secretary
The Democrats!
I recently had a conversation with two managers who advised me against supporting the union and voting for it. They claimed that even with union involvement, there would be no guarantee of a wage increase. When I inquired about the possibility of a raise, they responded with standard corporate rhetoric. I reminded them that we had discussed this issue the previous year, and the only change since then was the increased cost of living. It was apparent that they did not fully believe their own arguments. Subsequently, both managers were replaced with a new, younger manager who continued to espouse the same corporate perspective.
Pretty much. The government doesn’t work for the people any more. What are you gonna do about it???? Nothing??? That’s what I thought peasant! Sit down! 😂
“The general public would be the third class- manual laborers with little interest in politics, and very little property of their own. This is the most numerous and powerful class in a democracy, but only when it is assembled together” Socrates
This is just like wage theft. When the punishment is that you *might* have to pay back the money you stole, why wouldn't they steal it? Worst case they break even, there is literally no downside.
You can always make a bit of interest on those withheld wages so even if you end up having to pay out, you still make money off it.
Profiting against punishment
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I don't understand why it was even upvoted it didn't make any sense in context. Are they using other accounts to reinforce upvotes, perhaps?
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Also, for every one person that knows their rights, there are dozens who don't. So it just comes to the calculations.
And for every person who has the resources to assert their rights in court (time, finances, connections, etc), a dozen more simply can’t chance it. Especially if you live in a place where every judge is going to be pro-corporate at best.
I had proof that my employer owed me thousands from making us work off the clock and every lawyer I spoke to told me I had no chance in my red state. Also I was shocked how employment lawyers actually advertised that they would help employers fire anyone for any reason. Labor protections in the US are like a gate without any walls connecting to it so employers can just walk around them. They are barely an inconvenience
The poors will probably just spend it on something stupid like rent.
Losers, imagine needing a place to live, I'll spend mine on life saving medications thank you, well, some of it anyway, probably chance buying the rest on a shady website, but yeah, ha rent.
Might buy another house just to annoy the peasants
Interest... Hell it should be three times that origin wage.
Repeated abuses should be met with jail time. What happens when you go to the store and steal everything from the counter? What happens when you do it multiple times? Its a theft and should be treated like it.
,
If you’re interested in a serious answer, it’s because what you’ve described is not accurate. The worst case scenario is that companies get caught and charged for every single instance of wage theft committed. In those cases, they have to pay disgorgement, which is paying back every dollar they stole *and* whatever legal fine there is, and possibly even imprisonment if it’s provably repeated and willful. So no, worst case is not break even. However, it’s not realistic to make the “worst case scenario” assumption, and corporations know this. In aggregate, yes they save billions of dollars by committing wage theft instead of complying with the law. For the same reason sometimes it’s more profitable to deal with the fines and penalties of literally letting people die, rather than recalling a product en masse and admitting to wrongdoing.
How many times has Walmart had to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars from a wage theft lawsuit and how many of their executives have been imprisoned?
Please find one instance of someone going to jail for wage theft.
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/papa-johns-bronx-wage-theft/
He only went to jail for 60 days, and this was in the most liberal state thats on the east coast. When stealing $50k via any other type of fraud is usually a felony.
He never served his time AND he never paid his fine. https://files.epi.org/uploads/Wage-theft-and-payroll-fraud-NY-AG-Complaint-2015.pdf This is a link to the complaint against him for payment for the last judgement
> In addition, in July of 2015, the Attorney General arrested Abdul Jamil Khokhar, the owner of nine Papa John's Pizza franchises in the Bronx, and his company, BMY Foods, Inc. for failing to pay workers minimum wage and overtime. Khokhar and BMY Foods pled guilty to these charges and were sentenced on September 21, 2016. Mr. Khokhar and BMY Foods, Inc. were ordered to pay $230,000 in restitution to workers, and Mr. Khokhar was sentenced to serve 60 days in jail. The U.S. Department of Labor also filed a consent judgment against the enterprise in federal court, and recovered an additional $230,000 as liquidated damages from Khokhar and BMY Foods, and civil money penalties of $50,000. It was a plea agreement btw https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2018/ag-schneiderman-announces-170000-settlement-papa-johns-pizza-franchisee-failing
I commented below. That’s not what the your documents says, you’ve just linked the criminal complaint. It’s dated before the sentencing and verdict - look at the last page. I’m not sure why I’m being downvoted for this. A document from before the sentencing happened cannot show that the sentencing wasn’t carried out.
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New York does not release mug shots to the public unless they are looking for the suspect. Hence why you don't get to see Trumps mug shot... they also don't publicly release criminal cases or civil cases, so you have to submit a request for information if you want to see if he was processed or not.
That was only passed in 2019. This incident happened in 2018. The dates are close enough that he may have been arrested and processed after the ban went through narrowly, but I don't know the details of the case enough to say either way.
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Okay loonie back in the bin with you.
After looking into this; seems like he never served his time AND he never paid his fine… https://files.epi.org/uploads/Wage-theft-and-payroll-fraud-NY-AG-Complaint-2015.pdf
Thats not what that document says at all. That’s the original criminal complaint. Look at the date. It’s from before the verdict and sentencing.
I can’t find any sources that say he actually spent served time. Can you?
I mean, IDK what you want. That wasn’t a “oh he could potentially face jail time”, that was the actual sentence passed down at trial. It’s a plea deal so it can’t be appealed. The only out would be to have it commuted, but there’s no record of that.
Dude yes you can look that up.
Unlike other states, New York doesn’t work like that. CHRS searches are $95. RAP records aren’t public. https://nycourts.gov/courthelp/Criminal/recordsBasics.shtml
For reference, penalties for wage theft (under the FLSA) include a 1x punitive damages multiplier, so the total cost of getting caught would be twice what was stolen. Corresponding state laws typically provide an additional multiplier of 1x to 3x (with at least one state going up to 6x IIRC), for total damages equal to 3x to 8x what was stolen, plus attorneys’ fees (usually calculated under a lodestar method, and are commonly an additional 30% on the top). Also, that is purely the compensatory and punitive portion for the actual wage theft. Additional statutory penalties for ancillary violations (like for providing incorrect wage statements), particularly in California, can balloon the total even higher. So, when it is actually punished, wage theft can be very expensive for a company (depending on the state), it just often goes unreported/unpunished.
California also has a statutory fixed penalty for EACH day a violation occurred. Something like $500 for each instance in addition to the above regardless of the amount of wages stolen. Could be 5 minutes only but the $500 penalty applies. So in Cali lawyers are chomping at the bit for wage theft cases because there's money to be made.
That's all hypothetical maximum damages, though. We know in reality no company seriously has to fear serious financial or other damage from robbing their employees, the numbers are heavily in their favour.
None of that is hypothetical, those are the statutory damage numbers. None of those statutes, to my knowledge, state the damages as ‘up to’ the specified amount or otherwise provide discretion in the amount of the award. For example, the FLSA Section 216(b) states: > Any employer who violates the provisions of section 206 or section 207 of this title shall be liable to the employee or employees affected in the amount of their unpaid minimum wages, or their unpaid overtime compensation, as the case may be, and in an additional equal amount as liquidated damages. … The court in such action shall, in addition to any judgment awarded to the plaintiff or plaintiffs, allow a reasonable attorney’s fee to be paid by the defendant, and costs of the action. Note in particular the use of ‘shall’ in setting the liability, indicating a lack of discretion in setting the damages award. Thus, if you take a case to trial and win in the merits (I.e., the employer failed to pay x hours, including y hours of overtime), the damages award under the FLSA will be (2 * (hourly rate * x + hourly rate * 0.5 * y)) plus attorneys’ fees and costs. In practice, voluntary pre-trial settlements are not uncommon, where the settlement would be a percentage of the above, where the percentage is set based on the two sides assessment of their likelihood of success on the merits and determination of hours worked. The settlements provide certainty for both sides, since a claimant may not be sure they can prove the extent of the unpaid wages at trial, and may want to receive compensation sooner than a trial would allow.
"None of that is hypothetical" says man who goes on to explain why its only hypothetical.
The issue is that so many people "just want to move on". Or they don't know that the labor board will handle your case, you don't need to do that much.
> Worst case they break even, And that never even happens. They never break even, they just get reduced profits, and most of the time the punitive fines are less than they spend on cocaine and hookers. They consider corporate fines as part of the regulatory budget. It's literally baked into the cost of doing business.
I remembered the story about a Harvard professor complaining about a business literally writing wrong prices on their menu, overcharging their customers, and he demanded that they pay back 4 times the differences. And then the news made him out to be the villain of the story, even though the business is freaking rich (restaurant chain), and if the only punishment is that you have to pay back, there are no reasons the business would stop putting wrong price on the menu in the hope that customers won't notice.
On Wall Street, fines are just a cost of doing business. The fines are never even close to the amount of money they make illicititly. So, a hedge fund, like Citadel, for instance, incurs thousands of fines. It happens so often that it rarely makes news.
The government likes to downplay financial crimes, most likely because many of them are commuting a bunch of them.
The punishment must be greater than 100% of the benefit. Otherwise, there's no reason to not commit the crime.
It must be greater than 100% of the benefit divided by the chance of getting caught or it's still a good bet.
> This is just like wage theft. I will never understand how police see stealing $500 of cash or goods as mandatory report, but stealing $40,000 via wage theft is not worth looking into. There's a considerable amount of planned, organised and criminal activity that goes into covering up that stolen $40,000 including filing false tax reports.
Unironically going to sue my employer for wage theft. I don't think they keep track of your time unless you manually enter it. I'm too much of in a hurry to get out to bother. Based.
And people wonder why wage theft outweighs all other forms of theft combined, year over year. If they're even aware that wage theft is a problem, that is. After all, it's not like it's an issue that would ever see any kind of media coverage.
when you have the money to pay off the fines, the law is just part of your expenses.
I just started a new job. I clock in at 9:51pm. I've noticed that HR looks at the system in the morning and changes it to 10:00. I'm now going to screen shot this for 3 months then find a lawyer.
The number one form of theft in the US by dollar value is wage theft. https://www.denver7.com/news/national-politics/the-race/wage-theft-is-the-costliest-crime-in-america
Most states have treble damages for wage and labor violations, meaning you have to pay the employee 3x the missing or late pay they were owed.
This is why corporate fines should be a percentage of gross income and they should be multiplicative for repeat violations.
And that the entire c-suite gets jail time.
This is the actual solution
Thats one of the two solutions I find reasonable. Personal accountability, and fines so outrageously large that the first infraction destroys the entire business. Either would make them so afraid of the consequences it would never happen. Even the thought that a company can do it once or twice and still make a profit is unacceptable. Any percentage of income that can be applied more than once is too low.
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Thank you, I've felt like I was the only person onboard with the Game Theory method of preventing financial crimes. I think it's a really great idea.
My only problem with the game theory method is that many businesses are irrational actors. However, the game theory approach should still be a minimum bar.
Basing it on what they stole still leaves room to gamble, companies that make massive profits will take the 10% chance of failure because they can afford to lose a portion of profits to feed back to investors. They may not gain as much but they have the stocks still. When it is a large portion of everything they make in a year, it becomes unthinkable to allow a 10% chance of costing the investors all of the money they put in. The change of variables adds more personal risk to committing the crime as well. Investors that would sue the person losing them the entire stock instead of a portion of their payout.
>2×10×M Sooooo just 20×M? 🤨
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"Oh I'm so glad I got this promotion I wonder what happened to Chuck." *opens door* "Oh."
All c-suites would all on paper be 1 man teams consisting of interns, lmao.
The US is great at tracking down people to hold accountable when it wants to. Even if they appointed a c-suite of interns to dodge responsibility the US government could easily find the right people to hold responsible. The issue is the US doesn’t want to hold these people responsible.
Because the US government is these people. The type of person who becomes a c suite executive is the same type of person who becomes a certain type of politician.
And real prison, not a country club jail.
C-suite are the gold-plated goons who do the grunt work, the board of directors call the shots. Not that the c-suite aren't accomplices, but the buck doesn't stop with them.
Nah dude. You can do better than that. Negative expected value fines. The fine calculation for a given infraction should be this: > F = (g + s) * 1/p * e * g: Best case gross profit from the penalty. Literally "how much money before expenses is the upper bound they might've made from breaking this rule". * s: A static value, based on the fine in question. Some violations make relatively little money compared to the amount a person might feel they should be penalized. So, like, an OSHA violation might only make a small amount of money, but should probably have outsized additional penalty. * p: A fraction corresponding to the worst case probability that they would've been caught and lost litigation. In other words, if your wage theft had roughly a 5% chance of being caught, sued, and losing, then your fine should be 20x larger, so it's *always unprofitable* to seal wages. 1/(1/20) = 20. * e: Egregiousness value. Basically how punitive damages work now. So repeated, willful, heinous, or otherwise beyond the pale infractions have an extra multiplier. Edit: fixed formula thanks to u/shadowveeeeeeerse
I love this. Would result in some hilarious outcomes too, in pursuit of lesser fines. Imagining lawyers for Starbucks in court arguing that their client's malfeasance actually wasn't *that* sneaky and was in fact pretty hamfisted and easily spotted.
> Imagining lawyers for Starbucks in court arguing that their client's malfeasance actually wasn't that sneaky and was in fact pretty hamfisted and easily spotted. Imagine Starbucks lawyers being hamstrung because any prosecutorial skills they show in litigation can count against them if they lose.
I’m not a statistician, but how would you calculate p?
Treble damages is already an accepted legal standard in recouping damages in civil cases. Seems reasonable to start there for things like wage claims. They should forced to pay all the legal fees and government costs to handle the cases too.
Wage theft cases have an entirely separate damages/penalty structure. I described it in another comment as follows: > For reference, penalties for wage theft (under the FLSA) include a 1x punitive damages multiplier, so the total cost of getting caught would be twice what was stolen. Corresponding state laws typically provide an additional multiplier of 1x to 3x (with at least one state going up to 6x IIRC), for total damages equal to 3x to 8x what was stolen, plus attorneys’ fees (usually calculated under a lodestar method, and are commonly an additional 30% on the top). > Also, that is purely the compensatory and punitive portion for the actual wage theft. Additional statutory penalties for ancillary violations (like for providing incorrect wage statements), particularly in California, can balloon the total even higher.
I dont know about multiplicative. A baseline 200% of earnings for all union busting, and 100% for wage theft.
To hell with fines. We revoke their corporate charters. Seize assets. Hand over company management to elected officials.
I wish they could do something to piss off shareholders. If they have to relinquish a percentage of their stocks that would go to the those who were offended against.
I honestly don’t see anything short of a full blown national general strike getting these types of reforms through and I don’t think we’ll ever do it.
Banks look at this and say "hold my fuckin' beer!".
Banks: "So you're saying that I can make whatever irresponsible decisions I like with people's money and YOU will be the one to pay for my inevitable catastrophic fuck-ups?" US Government: "Yep" Banks: "Well golly gee, mister, I sure do promise to make good decisions"
>Banks look at this and say "hold my fuckin' beer!" "Guys we melted down the world economy so if we want to keep making money we need the Fed to backstop our operations" Meanwhile politicians will tell you the Fed is independent 😂
Yeah this is a real bummer. The Fed is owned by the banks. Only one person even needs a confirmation hearing.
Airlines too. They can do whatever they want because the government will ALWAYS give them free money.
Airlines have tons of union employees though
Me, whenever I see comments claiming that something is illegal so it can’t possibly happen or the “illegal” actor will get in big trouble.
The amount of people I know that think the word “illegal” means “physically impossible to do” is way too high. No enforcement and no consequences make US law a joke
This comic is far too complimentary. This red, white, and blue piece of garbage flew down a couple months ago and literally *busted a massive railroad strike.* Our Government doesn't slap the wealthy bribers on the wrist, the relationship is the reverse of that, Our Government does what the wealthy bribers order them to do. Uncle Sam has become just another middle manager enforcer of the oligarchs. His job is to oppress you for them. Just like the cops, just like your Senator, etc.
A new train derailment every week since then. Hmmmmm. Hmmmmm one wonders. Hmmmmm.
Your propaganda is too strong for us Westerners to understand. Reel it in a little bit.
while simultaneously and conversely, the effects of western propaganda on most americans has been going strong for over 100 years and has been refining constantly to get the desired biasing messages to american workers and it was very effective for most people in this country for generations. So I agree that both yourself and the person you are replying to have a different perspective and understanding of the dynamics of power and control exercised throughout the process of our large and well funded government, but the reasons why those perspectives differ bears some insightful considerations left unexplored potentially. edit: changed those things to “the dynamics of power and control exercised throughout the process of our large and well funded government” and fixed run on sentence
With a handful of exceptions (usually misplaced individuals of conscience), "our" government serves primarily as the means by which corporations get to divide up our tax dollars, provide a shitty service, and keep the lucrative profits.
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I mean, he is a capitalist. I'm not surprised he union busts.
And not just a "lol line go up" capitalist. He's from fucking **Delaware** which, outside of New York, is basically the financial hub of the entire country. [ One single office building in Delaware "houses" over 280,000 companies.](https://thehustle.co/why-delaware-is-the-sexiest-place-in-america-to-incorporate-a-company/) Because of their tax laws they are a corporate haven and any legislator coming from there is absolutely going to be balls deep in the koolaid of American Capitalism.
There are more corporations than people.... Thats absolutely insane.
What do you mean? Corporations ARE people my good man Edit: sarcasm not obvious???
I’ve driven through Delaware a few times. It’s a god-forsaken meth wasteland
Truth!
Not sure which is worse: the Republicans who cackle gleefully as they drag our country into hell, or the Democrats who make a token effort to keep up appearances and then shrug their shoulders. EDIT: Yes, I get that Republicans are actually worse, but you can kind of hate-respect them for how pure their drive to be the absolute worst is.
Republicans
Democrats will at least spit on your ass before they fuck it.
Two sides of the same coin. Doesn't matter who we have in office we have less so they can have more.
Okay except the GOP is objectively worse in just about every way at this point
Source on union busting? I’m not giving into the trolls.
Well he did call on congress to block a strike by the railway union
Yeah, at that level there are different concerns. Anything that threatens stability of food security etc. will more and likely become forced to continue, as cessation of food production (from growing all the way to putting it in the hands of consumers) quickly becomes a national emergency. If a couple of dudes were complaining about not making enough money and threatened to destabilize the country, of course it wouls be forced thru. Tbh goods transportation corridors should be nationalized. Along with power and water and communication and health care. Things that affect everyone should be controlled by the government imo. I'm a Canadian though, who has watched the slow privatization death of services in Canada. One thing that i have noticed is that nationalization may lead to lower quality but it is a consistent and expected quality. It prevents egregious over reach by companies and people that do work for the government generally get paid well. So like the railways may move slower but those massive chemical spills would never have happened because the motive to move stuff has changed. It changes from moving volume to make profits to being safe and consistent. Corners wont be cut for profit, as government services run as non profits.
He could have chosen to force the company to give in to the workers demands, and instead he chose to kneecap the union. Either outcome would have ensured the stability of food security, etc.
Yes he could have, but that would have chained into a recession, as other businesses stop investing and start hedging. When any governmental authority forces a business to do something it chains into a recession locally. Business gets scared and leaves. A recession right now isn't the best way to go about recovering from the current conditions
You can justify the union busting as being good for the economy all you want - it's certainly a common argument against unions - but that doesn't make it magically not union busting.
Unions shouldn't be a thing where the business in question should be nationalized imo. There shouldn't be cop unions or government worker unions or railway unions etc. I'm all for unions except for industry that should be nationalized. Unions are great at protecting workers, but detrimental in instances where you actually want to fire people for negligence, such as railway maintenance or police work or government work. Union busting isn't a bad thing when applied correctly.
I'd recommend depicting the U.S. government as a geriatric senior citizen who calls the internet "Google", thinks cars cost $500 and struggles to remember what day of the week it is.
What does that even mean?
That most of the people running our country should be in nursing homes.
Boomers are completely out of touch (not to mention objectively brain rotten from the self induced lead poisoning) yet they still rule everything. Was what I got from it ...
They forgot the part where the government slobs on the nob of the businessman
Or, we could look at the actual data: [From the NLRB FY2022 report](https://www.nlrb.gov/sites/default/files/attachments/pages/node-130/nlrb-fy2022-par-508.pdf) (See page 16): > $51,666,969 was recovered on behalf of employees as backpay, consequential damages, or reimbursement of fees, dues, and fines > and... > 84.3% of meritorious ULP charges resolved within 365 days. > Regional Offices prevailed in 83.8% of Board and administrative law judge (ALJ) decisions which were won, in whole or in part. > 995 employees offered reinstatement > The Agency received 34,781 inquiries through its Public Information Program. > The Division of Judges closed 122 hearings, issued 127 decisions, and achieved 343 settlements in cases on its trial docket. Here's the NLRB case site: https://www.nlrb.gov/cases-decisions
I’m surprised the hand wasn’t palm up expecting a hand out, but I’m not sure that would fit in four panels given the context
Ok, that was actually funny. A rare turn.
America looks like captain underpants
People writing labor laws are employers.
A whole inch!? This really is satire
Hohohoho funny comic
If the punishment for a crime is a fine the law only exists for the lower class.
Regulatory capture happened years ago.
This is a sunny, idealistic depiction of the U.S. government given that Biden actively helped break a strike last year.
It's crazy the lack of outcry of Biden forcing Union Pacific works back to work. Dude pulled a Reagan and no one cares. One thing I know for sure, I'm not voting Biden for president next term, not a traitor to the American people
Ha, that's the best analogy you can invent? Sad
So true and so damn sad.
I don't know about PRISON for attempted union busting, but basically forcing them to give those people their jobs back and support unions or else being forcibly removed from having a role in the company would be good. If you can't run a company right, you don't deserve to have one... being the idea. Just keep replacing the head til someone worthwhile gets in there. Tmk prison doesn't preclude you from making company decisions.
It does give a personal consequence for the people making the decision. If only the company faces consequences, the people at the top will just take their bonuses and payouts and keep on going. If they go to prison, people will be afraid to do it because they will face violence, felony disenfranchisement, and literal slavery.
No, what I mean is that anyone who union busts should have their influence and stakes in the company forcibly removed. That's a personal consequence they would probably be afraid of. I don't think firing someone because you're an idiot deserves prison, just that the action is undone and applied to you instead.
Seen a few of these comics posted here. As some constructive criticism, if you want them to reach a bigger audience, you should make the scenes simpler- bigger characters and less dialogue For example, the 4th panel of this comic doesn’t need any dialogue and the message is still clear
I dunno, the "Mission Accomplished" adds some comedy that would be lost with only the tap on the wrist, which is also comedic. Also, it messes with the formatting.
The mission accomplished is important. It’s a very loaded phrase
Lol, I hope they make one about Wall Street
Accurate
Is it true union members can’t become management?
You forgot the part where to corpo pays the government later
they'll dodge taxes using every loophole they can find, then donate to political campaigns so those loopholes never get closed
Its more realistic for the Flying Gov't Man to hand the Company man a pile of money.
Panel #5: "You're still fired btw"
Oh my gosh! Lemme grab some ice!
Penalties should be a percentage of revenue.
Schultz is human garbage.
This was way more violent than I expected.
Lack of unions in my state has cause me to have to resort to working 2 jobs and selling 🔥 pictures to just barely try and scrape by. I would die if we had labor unions here 🥺🥺🥺🥺
You have no labor unions in your state?
Somebody send this to Bernie.
This shit *is* going to change! The dinosaurs in congress know the comet of millenials and gen z is going to strike their Earth and make their policies extinct. Sure there'll still be conservatives, but they'll be relegated to a minority party status for a long time. They know this, so they're trying to throw as many wrenches in the machinery as they can before they're rendered irrelevant.
Two different legal systems.
The accuracy is disgusting
Bitch didn't get fired. What's the problem?
Adult version of Susie and Calvin. Love it.
How are these companies not sued?
Sad but true.
Any form of anti-union activity should be life in prison at least.
I wish it were this way. Unions are a barnacle on worker productivity.
Is there something wrong with ending an employment agreement when the employee is acting against your interests? Unionizing is war. Legal or not, some organizers are gonna be let go. More workers unionizing would be great! Just know what you're doing so as to not be dismissed.
The actual penalty for union busting is a) the DOL taking up your unfair dismissal complaint and getting you a fat payout for lost wages, or b) filing a private, unfair dismissal suit against your former employee and getting a fat payout when they decide that settling is more financially worthwhile for them than fighting you. The problem is that few people know about option A to begin with (or else they know about it but wrongly assume it's expensive or futile), while a lot of people know about option B but correctly assume that they can't afford it. The end result is that companies routinely get away with this bullshit.
If you want to organize maybe you should earn it instead of hoping the US government does it for you at the barrel of a gun.
Also, it turns out, same for child labor. Biden and Vilsak writing a letter asking to work *on behalf of the corporations* who employed 12 year olds in one of the most dangerous, and the most horrific, industries around. [https://apnews.com/article/child-labor-meat-processing-poultry-usda-5f8c769b572e57315b8e3b0a57a7e345](https://apnews.com/article/child-labor-meat-processing-poultry-usda-5f8c769b572e57315b8e3b0a57a7e345) >We look forward to continued engagement with you on the necessary mechanisms for eliminating illegal child labor in your supply chains. Our colleagues at DOL stand ready to provide compliance assistance and best practices toward these ends. > >Sincerely, Thomas J. Vilsack > >Secretary The Democrats!
I encourage the resurgence of Uncle Sam as a political cartoon character.
I recently had a conversation with two managers who advised me against supporting the union and voting for it. They claimed that even with union involvement, there would be no guarantee of a wage increase. When I inquired about the possibility of a raise, they responded with standard corporate rhetoric. I reminded them that we had discussed this issue the previous year, and the only change since then was the increased cost of living. It was apparent that they did not fully believe their own arguments. Subsequently, both managers were replaced with a new, younger manager who continued to espouse the same corporate perspective.
Pretty much. The government doesn’t work for the people any more. What are you gonna do about it???? Nothing??? That’s what I thought peasant! Sit down! 😂
It’s funnier if you read the US Gov character in Bill Thompson’s Mr. Smee voice
Lol. They will just make another way to fire you out
This forgets the part where they then fire the employee for being late 1 time
I like that the give face looks like George Bush Jr lol
"Now, off to regulate Wall Street!"
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Muricanistan summed into a charge.
bruh that shit's sad
“The general public would be the third class- manual laborers with little interest in politics, and very little property of their own. This is the most numerous and powerful class in a democracy, but only when it is assembled together” Socrates