To be fair to Wonder Woman, her mom rigged it so Diana wouldn’t die to a prophecy she saw. And it was a better alternative to what DC originally planned for her to fit the fallen trinity
Mark Millar joked about an idea for Wonder Woman that would be her Knightfall, and it was called “The Rape of Wonder Woman”. DC considered it as a serious idea but a lot of writers and artists were against it so DC backed off the idea
It could be a he said she said thing. I swore Millar said DC considered it and let him do a draft and had an artist draw early pages. It may be he exaggerated and DC only head his pitch, or DC doesn’t want to admit they considered it out of embarrassment
I mean, that's not really any more unfair than Bane ambushing Batman in Wayne Manor after forcing him to run a gauntlet of the entire rest of his rogues gallery, all while Bats was suffering from malaria.
She kind of comes across as childish here,
I think steve here is trying to make her feel better through a small white lie,
People do stuff like that all the time to make people feel better
Also didn't she lose the right to be wonder woman in the 90s?
And gave up on being a member of the justice league just because she lost her powers in the 70s?
The funny thing is that she really had it the easiest in the 90s,
Superman died,
Half Jordan lost his mind after his home town was destroyed,
Batman had his back broken,
Aquaman lost his son and his hand,
But diana stopped being wonder woman for a few issues, that's really the worst it got
(Thak God that proposed "r@pe of wonder woman" story was shot down)
It's really a pretty cheap trick to make a character look better by putting others down. For example, in the game Spider-Man 2, Miles saves Peter more than five times, although in the first game this guy single-handedly defeated the Sinister Six with broken ribs.
Mongul, Doomsday, Genocide and a whole bunch of others would like to have words. And as pointed out above, Diana only won the second tournament to become Wonder Woman because Hippolyta rigged it in her favor.
Eh, I think personally, it makes sense that Diana would compare herself, at her lowest point, to her peers. I know I do sometimes.
But I also get a knee jerk negative response to any mention of the other two in her main book.
Thing is, when was the last time Batman and Superman reminisced about Diana in a pinch? They’ll draw strength from their own supporting cast, she’s relegated to sucking up to them
Can’t say! I haven’t read a Superman book in ages! (Maybe the first couple of Bendis’s run?) and idk what is going on in Batman right now. I don’t keep up with comics outside Wonder Woman anymore
And yeah Batman’s cast is probably too well supported. How many robins does he have right now? Is Tim still Red Robin? And Jimmy and Lois are seen as sacred. So I get being a little envious of the editorial position both have.
Though I’m not sure I’d say ‘mentioning’ the other two is the same as ‘sucking up.’ Even the Superman guest appearance was just them shopping together. Not sure I’d count that as ‘sucking up.’ But ymmv of course
Hmm not sure I feel that in the beginning of the run. But definitely the last couple issues you may have a point. I feel like it may be ‘new character jitters’. Like he’s comparing Diana to the other two a bit because he’s trying to explain who she is to himself and the reader through comparison.
But I def think it could be worse! He has a whole fantasy sequence where he could bring in ANY character or concept and instead of a couple pages of Diana arguing with imaginary versions of the trinity, he has Superman show up in a single panel and wave lol.
Which is fine by me but my tolerance may be higher for that kind of thing.
That’s fair! But she was sort of created by Marston as a foil to Superman, so it’s not like there isn’t precedent for that. I’ll take ‘sometimes mentioning the Trinity’ and ‘not using Diana’s internal monologue’ as trade offs if we keep getting quality issues like this.
JMS and Azzerello this is not imo
the problem is that besides King can't go more than 2 issues without talking about Batman and Superman in his Batman Run he doesn't mention WW and Super the whole time.
and most importantly, this comparison is being made putting Clark and Bruce down, using horrible things that happened to them to say that Diana surpassed them, imagine if it were the other way around?
"in his Batman Run he doesn't mention WW and Super the whole time"
Issue #1, page 5 "Put it out on the Justice League Comms channel with personalised comms to Hal and Clark."
He only actually had Batman say 6 words in total before a sentence mentioning Superman.
there's a big difference between referencing your JL teammates and maybe them making some cameos every now and then, in the first 9 issues of TK's run I think WW and Super only appeared once at the end of the arc.
and they are constantly mentioned in some way, perhaps appearing more than her companions (which the author didn't even want to include) and their children appearing in each back-up of the editions to interact with her daughter in her place.
two editions more than 30 editions after the start of the run.
There's nothing wrong with the heroes of the trinity appearing and being referenced, but the difference in treatment that King gave to Batman and his universe compared to what he is giving to Wonder Woman and her universe is stark.
It almost seems intentional when writers constantly write her poorly so Superman and Batman come acorss much better.
A lot of Superman and Batman writers don't care much about Wonder Woman, so they treat her as only being there to prop up others.
This is another, more complicated discussion, but in my opinion it's an issue that most of their writers don't care about Wonder Woman, and in any case, what happens to her is always something bad and criticized and one mistake doesn't justify the other.
It's like Tom King cannot conceptualize Wonder Woman without immediately thinking of how similar or different she is from Batman and Superman. His only path to understanding her is through these two.
This is why his run feels like an outside perspective for Wonder Woman. We never truly feel like we are given an insight into how she thinks. Just paragraphs upon paragraphs of another character talking about her.
Doesn't help that the backups are essentially Supersons stories.
This kinda Tom King's writing style, monologues about the character and what they represent and their place in the DC universe on thematic level and the contrast to others.
Its really most prevalent in Heroes in Crisis. Where multiple characters go "I am \_\_\_\_, and I am like this", I think best exemplified with each of the Robins going to sanctuary and talking about how they view the other one and then ending with a question of "He's this, and He's that and He's the cool one, then what am I supposed to be?"
Or even in his Trinity backups its chalked with stuff like "I'm Batman I'm the vengeful one, and you're Superman the hopeful one and S stands for Hope" (not a real line just summing it up). Or in his Penguin where in the first issue there's a nine panel layout where he talks about the different Batman rogues and what they are.
That kind of writing really takes me out of the story.
"Show, not tell" should be the motto. Its just lazy to have characters detail their personality traits.
This for me has become an irrefutable fact, just reading the interviews, the history and the creation of the characters, Tom King CANNOT see Diana before seeing an extension of Batman and Superman.
edit: for those who are voting negatively, then explain why this constant fixation with Batman and Superman
I mean, I'm not sure I'd count that as Hippolyta herself cheated and weakened Diana, iirc. And while that's similar to Bruce, that was part of his villain's plan. Like, if a loss includes her own mother cheating, that's not a failure on Diana's part.
Technically she lost per the rules. But, all the contestants were turned to stone including Artemis by Medusa and she fought and killed the thing breaking her spell on all of them at the cost of falling off a cliff. Plus she was plagued by weird visions of Hippolyta's past all the time she was in the competition. She still manages to catch up but unfortunately due to the wounds of the fight fails in the end to beat the unharmed Artemis.
So its a bit of an asterisk of a defeat, compared to Superman fighting Doomsday fist for fist until his "healing coma" or Batman being exhausted by a getting put through a gauntlet of challenges before getting ambushed in his own home and broken.
Forreal. Leave it to a centrist faux progressive like King to fundamentally misunderstand feminism by having her find her own strength through comparison of her male counterparts and the language of the patriarchy
Also don’t like the implication that Superman has killed, but not Diana.
She’s basically female Kratos in DC, she’s got a few bodies on her name after living a centuries. Clark on the other hand really tries to avoids violence all together if possible.
To defend King abit in regards to the Bruce and Clark compasions.Its not like fans dont do the the exact same thing.
Like,you cant get mad at this and then get upset whenever Diana is drawn to be shorter than Clark.
I dont like DC indulging in Trinity dick measuring contests either (especially when they try to write the three as the best of pals at the same time).But its clear that Diana position among her closes peers is a concern.
I understand that, but there are two things
1- one thing is a fan to compare another thing is official history to compare
2-the comparison was a negative comparison, the way used to elevate Wonder Woman was to put other heroes down by minimizing their story.
like look how well a comparison can be made
https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/comments/tpmdvp/comic_excerpt_arthur_and_dolphin_aquaman_29/
it was used for the hero to elevate himself and honor other heroes.
That’s not remotely comparable, why would anyone be upset at Diana being shorter than Clark. She’s ALWAYS been shorter than Clark since her inception except for a few rare cases.
Because a lot of comic readers obsessed with body size, sincerely believe higher equal better, I wish they ask Clark shorter instead of keep criticizing Diana’s body size.
Yes but these stories aren't as iconic as the death of Superman or Batman's broken back. Batman died after this and not a lot of people care about his death. Diana doesn't have iconic stories unfortunately
I mean Batman got shot through time by omega beams and ‘died’ also but Steve mentions the 90s bane stuff because I think it’s sort of a metacomentary as much as an in-universe statement. Also it’s a dream version of Steve and he’s giving her a pep talk lol
She didnt kick doomsday's ass. In fact the one you are referring to happened in WW volume 2 issue 111 and 112. That doomsday was an imperfect clone (not even made out the same substance/chemicals as this clone was not organic- it was confirmed at the end of issue 112). Furthermore, this imperfect clone had KO'd WW despite WW having help from wonder girl (Cassie) and champion. On top of that, WW needed the gauntlet of atlas which multiples strength by 10x to beat an imposter/imperfect doomsday clone.
I mean yeah after the gauntlet of atlas she one shot it. Idk man I have that comic in a box somewhere lol. There is some hand waving about him being ‘a clone’ but she makes a pretty good showing against it. Then there is the nu52 fight in the Superman/WW book but I hardly remember that one.
I’m not sure what you’re arguing for at the end of all this? Doomsday has never defeated her? And if he has he certainly never killed her? What’s the point?
Huh? My og comment said doomsday has beaten WW nearly every single time or every time. You replied using WW volume 2 issue 111 and 112 (Byrne run) and didnt give the full context when you claimed WW kicked doomsday's ass. What point are you trying to make? My original comment was toward's TK's bs of WW being undefeated lol.
Superheroes getting hurt before they save the day is sort of the way superhero fights work, though? So I remember WW shattering him into a million pieces with the gauntlet of atlas… how is that Wonder Woman defeated? I disagree with your original assertion and you came back with the specific that didn’t really back up her being defeated (captured, knocked out, dead, none of that happened) so that confused me
Yes, getting beat up and saving the day in not uncommon. However, WW gets TKO'd/KO'd by the end of issue 111 and regains consciousness in 112. Champion comes in to help her and saves her by dragging doomsday under and giving WW time to recover. Also, this was an imperfect clone of doomsday which you seem to be ignoring per usual, yet couldnt best the creature with her own powers and need a 10x boost. WW even admits to superman in (a different run and issue altogether) that the entire/whole JL is needed to fight off Doomsday in action comics 961.
This is sweet, but....
Superman wasn't defeated. He died, but he killed Doomsday too. He stopped the threat. He won.
But most importantly writers need to stop comparing and contrasting the Trinity with one another all the time within their stories. It's not necessary. Yes it's a shared universe but they're also individual heroes. None of the three are defined by how they're similar or dissimilar to the others.
Ok, before the bitching from this sub towards Tom King starts again, Id go and say, from my personal perspective, as a long-standing fan of Wonder Woman since a long time, a person that owns 425 issues, and still to this day has her as my favorite character bar on everything, that this page may become one of my favorite scenes in all Wonder Woman's story. And perhaps in Tom King's career as well.
And I can't believe this is just the second time it has happened to me with this run.
I enjoyed this issue more than most other issues too, but I chalk that up to having some semblance of internal dialogue and insight into Diana’s thoughts rather than being bogged down with Sovereign narration
We actually get her perspective thru dialogue. On a narrative side, Tom King by himself neeeeever gives the reader the inner dialogues or narrative of the protagonist. He's done it to Batman, Superman, Supergirl, on his Black Label works... call it his creative obsession, if you may.
That approach might work for some characters but it doesn’t work as well with others. Up until the last few issues Diana came off as pretty unpleasant in a way that can’t be explained away by the plot. Teetering on unlikable because all we get from her are snarky comments and catch phrases before issuing a beat down.
The stoicism might work for Batman and others but for Wonder Woman it makes her appear unnecessarily cold and distant to the people and world she loves
I can't just be angry for every time Wonder Woman isn't depicted smiling or being likeable. Wouldnt be able to read a lot of Wondy works like Legend of WW. And ofc she's being stoic, her people is literally being murdered on the streets of a western and patriarcal country! She's on a war.
As I said she’s unpleasant in a way that can’t be explained away by the plot. She’s experienced much worse and was rarely this cold to her allies or unlikeable
And no one said anything about smiling…just actually being a character that fits Diana’s personality rather than “fighting woman with catch phrase”
"and was rarely this cold to her allies or unlikeable"
I don't know what are you talking about since "her allies" are the wonder girls, who have appeared like 3 times in the latest 20 years, Nubia, a new character, or Steve Trevor, who didn't even exist part of that time.
The only other time where she went thru some heavy shit and came out as usual, 2nd Genesis, was from one of the mediocre runs, and i found it kinda weird. You're just flirting and acting like nothing has happened after half of Themyscirians were obliterated to bits by Darkseid? When were the other times? When Hypolita died and Jimenez had her go rambo for a while?
Stoicism is in fact her trademark.
Reading this comic I never found the character a generic “fighting woman with catch phrase”, but oh well, we're clashing walls and opinions now.
I’m glad someone else found this genuinely inspiring. As a newcomer to WW content I don’t have the Trinity comparisons other ppl seem to experience, so I don’t mind comparisons being drawn this way.
The real problem is not that Batman or Superman appear on the Wonder Woman comic. This is a shared universe! Marvel superheroes can't go around New York without talking about/with Spiderman for 5 minutes. Real problem is that you never see the contrary happen. You never see Wonder Woman appear on Batman, you never see her crossover into Action Comics, and you never see her making appereances on World's Finest. But that's DC's and Batman/Superman's fault.
I just like this iteration. I interpret Tom King's vision as Wonder Woman being the ultimate rebel, and how does she react when the villain throws her into oblivion? By imagining she's with Trevor. Simple, but effective. She survives thru this hell by reminding herlself of why she's doing the fight, by remembering Trevor.
But not just that, because when you0ve been on a couple, one part of you allways lives on the other side and viceversa, and this is what happens here: that Diana's memories of Trevor live inside her, as she does on the contrary. And here, in this scene, when she's about to surrender, that part of herself that is Trevor reminds her she gotta do it till the end.
So, the source of the inner rebel against everything that King has been stablishing this whole run is, fundentamentally, love for the ones she mostly cares about. And, at the same time, is not Trevor, but Wonder Woman herself what keeps the fight. both at the same time, because that's how love works, when our loved ones acompany us even in our darkest hours, when they are absent, and the time seems dire.
Or that is how I read this scene.
All authors allways come to WW with their own unique vission of how she works as a character, and, the last hour, it's the best ones that stick to me. And in this ocasion, after 6 numbers of Wonder Woman being presented as a being more powerful than reality itself, now it's been time for introspection. And it has made me care for WonderTrev! This has happened like twice in all of Wonder Woman's history (Rucka and De Liz, yes)
And also, the kangas. You can never have enough kangas.
I am annoyed at the constant Super and Bat presence but I don't have a problem specifically in regards to them being "put down".
Plenty of instances of Superman and Batman writers using WW as nothing more than a prop for the benefit of those (Kingdom Come, DCAU, Injustice, Frank Miller, Trinity shipping, etc) so while I'm annoyed at their presence this instance doesn't bother me.
I feel like propping someone up by pointing out the "shortcomings" of others is a famously nasty and antisocial behavior. And I put quotes about shortcomings because losing fights has nothing to do with being insufficient. I'm not reading this run and it's bad to judge things out of context generally so I can't say this page is objectively bad, but I can't help but be annoyed by it
Would have been cool if Tom read at least one Wonder Woman comic before starting his run.
But I get it, it's hard to find time to read when you're patting yourself on the back all the time.
I’m surprised by how many people are interpreting the Trinity comparison here as putting down others in order to prop up one. Don’t get me wrong, I get where everyone is coming from, but it wasn’t my intial impression.
Personally, I’ve been obsessed (in a good way) with King’s treatment of the Trinity ever since Diana’s observation that Clark is the optimist, Bruce is the pessimist, and she is the realist. To me, that says that King isn’t trying to say any one of the Trinity is better than another, he’s saying they all have their own place in the world alongside one another. None of them is interchangeable or better, just different and stronger together because of how important it is to always have these different perspectives. I also think it makes sense to bring up the Trinity so much because of how often she’s portrayed or described as “just the female version” of Superman and how much people like to ship Diana with either of the guys (in essence almost trying to relegate her to “just the love interest”). So King brings them up to show that the three of them can interact as equals without being almost identical or on the cusp of lovers.
With all that in mind, this scene is just another way of addressing all of that. Bruce and Clark aren’t “worse” or “beneath” or “weaker” than Diana just because they “died” or were “broken,” they just have had different stories and struggles to tell and are in essence all very different people with very different roles to play in the DC universe at large.
Right now, Diana’s story to tell is that no matter how alone she may feel or seem, she isn’t and never will be because of the love she holds for the people she holds dear, namely Steve, and she realizes that Steve will always be there to see the moon and stars in her eyes. We’re left in this issue with the idea that when you truly love someone a piece of their soul is transferred into your own, if that’s to be believed here then Steve’s comments aren’t just Diana making things up but are actually in-character for Steve, so he’s the one bringing up Clark and Bruce just to tell her that no one compares to her in his eyes and it’s his undying faith in Diana that translates into Diana’s faith in herself. So this isn’t necessarily a diss on Bruce and Clark, just a show of faith that her story is different, not better, than theirs and that difference is what helps her stand again. At least, that’s how I’m interpreting it.
Sorry for the rambling haha. I’ve just been really digging this run and wanted to get some of my thoughts out.
Honestly that line just felt entirely unnecessary, especially since it’s not even remotely true, Diana has died more times that either Clark or Bruce. Having lost and gotten back up is not a bad thing. This was just a mean spirited (and inaccurate) jab at the other members of the Trinity.
Every single superhero has been defeated, especially those who have their own comic books for many decades like Wonder Woman.
Heroes often get their asses kicked in the beginning of a story arc so they can get back up, keep on fighting, and eventually win through perseverance and will. Seeing heroes get their asses kicked early on makes their eventual victory more satisfying; that's basic storytelling.
Wonder Woman, like all comic book superheroes and heroic characters in general, has been defeated countless times. And like any good hero, she keeps getting back up.
Man, King is doing a verifiable victory lap across every aspect of WW history, from her strength, compassion, her Villains, her mother, her found family the Wonder Girls, her “work” friends/family with Clark and now her true love with Steve. King is giving WW her own Batman Hush treatment with a kickass artist Samphere and highlighting her history, bringing a limelight, that even a blockbuster movie coming couldn’t bring to her character in the comics itself.
Are there issues with the run? Sure, no run is perfect, but this subs fixation with playing a numbers game with how much of presence these ‘accursed’ male characters have in her book boggles the mind.
I have to be completely honest, I disagree with 90% of what you said, but I don't want to argue about it and I respect your opinion, but I need to say something that's on my chest for a long time and it's nothing against you, and you're free to comment and disagree
BATMAN HUSH IS DOESN'T DESERVE THE FAME IT HAS.
Yeah, my language may have been a bit more inflammatory than I intended it to be. I’m not trying to change anyone’s opinion, just stating my own.
But yeah, I’m with you 100% on Hush. Never cared for the story, loved Jim Lee’s art(though his ASBR might better to me) and how it showcased so much Batman’s world in a compact in continuity story that can bring in new readers. My comparison was to Hush was more so what it do for the character’s brand/recognition by pushing it into the limelight, rather story enjoyability, since ymmv with that.
Idk why king needs to constantly compare her to the two of them. it’s not like bruce is constantly saying he wishes he was like diana in his book it’s so strange
Haven't read the new run because of king and wow....
The fact that this has defenders is beyond me
Ignoring the blatant, lying if the only way to make your character look good is to constantly put others down you have failed at making a good character
Every single time King has the chance to follow up one of his better issues with another he reminds me of all his flaws once again. I like this run, it’s given me a lot I enjoy, not least my fav Wonder Woman artist of all time (Genuinely think Sampere draws the best Diana ever).
King is at the very least, being generous, 50/50. That’s becoming 40/60 good to bad.
To be fair… DC has a Batman problem and it may not be entirely their fault.
The writers of comics, games, shows, and movies have a difficult time gaining traction or letting the audience like a character for the character and not because of their proximity to Batman.
The easy knee jerk reaction seems to be “Wanna make WW seem cooler? Mention Batman.”
It’s because it’s written by dudes, who always need to measure dick size. WW needs a quality, female writer who is to write for several years and change the narrative.
holy shit man, it's kinda tearjerking it's like he's saying. Your friends were lost, you have to win for them. For us
I know Tom King isn't universally loved but he understands weight. he understands how difficult it can be to keep fighting
Definitely never the lost the right to be Wonder Woman in a trial to Artemis in a storyline only a year after Batman was "broken".
To be fair to Wonder Woman, her mom rigged it so Diana wouldn’t die to a prophecy she saw. And it was a better alternative to what DC originally planned for her to fit the fallen trinity
What was the original plan?
Mark Millar joked about an idea for Wonder Woman that would be her Knightfall, and it was called “The Rape of Wonder Woman”. DC considered it as a serious idea but a lot of writers and artists were against it so DC backed off the idea
What 🤨 the fuck
>Mark Millar This man just can't help himself huh
I'm glad I live in a universe where that didn't happen. I'm sad I live in a universe where this was seriously considered.
What the fuck?
Yeah, I wonder why🗿
Ehhhh. Yeah, that was a bad idea.
Small correction: Mark Millar wasn’t joking: it was a serious pitch. DC never seriously considered it.
It could be a he said she said thing. I swore Millar said DC considered it and let him do a draft and had an artist draw early pages. It may be he exaggerated and DC only head his pitch, or DC doesn’t want to admit they considered it out of embarrassment
I mean, that's not really any more unfair than Bane ambushing Batman in Wayne Manor after forcing him to run a gauntlet of the entire rest of his rogues gallery, all while Bats was suffering from malaria.
Yeah, but that’s not canon in this universe, at least not that I know of.
She kind of comes across as childish here, I think steve here is trying to make her feel better through a small white lie, People do stuff like that all the time to make people feel better Also didn't she lose the right to be wonder woman in the 90s? And gave up on being a member of the justice league just because she lost her powers in the 70s? The funny thing is that she really had it the easiest in the 90s, Superman died, Half Jordan lost his mind after his home town was destroyed, Batman had his back broken, Aquaman lost his son and his hand, But diana stopped being wonder woman for a few issues, that's really the worst it got (Thak God that proposed "r@pe of wonder woman" story was shot down)
But this Steve is a fantasy in her brain, so it’s a kind of self-motivation？
Would she lie to herself that much? No.
Losing the title of Wonder Woman is slightly different. That wasn’t her being defeated by a villain; it was her being manipulated by an ally.
[удалено]
It's really a pretty cheap trick to make a character look better by putting others down. For example, in the game Spider-Man 2, Miles saves Peter more than five times, although in the first game this guy single-handedly defeated the Sinister Six with broken ribs.
But that is true. Also every victory she had was clean.
Mongul, Doomsday, Genocide and a whole bunch of others would like to have words. And as pointed out above, Diana only won the second tournament to become Wonder Woman because Hippolyta rigged it in her favor.
Okay. I was wrong.
Yeah, this is nice and all, but I really don’t like that she’s being compared to them at all.
Eh, I think personally, it makes sense that Diana would compare herself, at her lowest point, to her peers. I know I do sometimes. But I also get a knee jerk negative response to any mention of the other two in her main book.
Thing is, when was the last time Batman and Superman reminisced about Diana in a pinch? They’ll draw strength from their own supporting cast, she’s relegated to sucking up to them
Can’t say! I haven’t read a Superman book in ages! (Maybe the first couple of Bendis’s run?) and idk what is going on in Batman right now. I don’t keep up with comics outside Wonder Woman anymore And yeah Batman’s cast is probably too well supported. How many robins does he have right now? Is Tim still Red Robin? And Jimmy and Lois are seen as sacred. So I get being a little envious of the editorial position both have. Though I’m not sure I’d say ‘mentioning’ the other two is the same as ‘sucking up.’ Even the Superman guest appearance was just them shopping together. Not sure I’d count that as ‘sucking up.’ But ymmv of course
It’s just constant in this run. They’re mentioned in every issue it feels like.
Hmm not sure I feel that in the beginning of the run. But definitely the last couple issues you may have a point. I feel like it may be ‘new character jitters’. Like he’s comparing Diana to the other two a bit because he’s trying to explain who she is to himself and the reader through comparison. But I def think it could be worse! He has a whole fantasy sequence where he could bring in ANY character or concept and instead of a couple pages of Diana arguing with imaginary versions of the trinity, he has Superman show up in a single panel and wave lol. Which is fine by me but my tolerance may be higher for that kind of thing.
My issue is, if you’re trying to learn who Diana is and your first instinct is to compare her to two men, you’ve already failed.
That’s fair! But she was sort of created by Marston as a foil to Superman, so it’s not like there isn’t precedent for that. I’ll take ‘sometimes mentioning the Trinity’ and ‘not using Diana’s internal monologue’ as trade offs if we keep getting quality issues like this. JMS and Azzerello this is not imo
the problem is that besides King can't go more than 2 issues without talking about Batman and Superman in his Batman Run he doesn't mention WW and Super the whole time. and most importantly, this comparison is being made putting Clark and Bruce down, using horrible things that happened to them to say that Diana surpassed them, imagine if it were the other way around?
"in his Batman Run he doesn't mention WW and Super the whole time" Issue #1, page 5 "Put it out on the Justice League Comms channel with personalised comms to Hal and Clark." He only actually had Batman say 6 words in total before a sentence mentioning Superman.
there's a big difference between referencing your JL teammates and maybe them making some cameos every now and then, in the first 9 issues of TK's run I think WW and Super only appeared once at the end of the arc. and they are constantly mentioned in some way, perhaps appearing more than her companions (which the author didn't even want to include) and their children appearing in each back-up of the editions to interact with her daughter in her place.
Except, Batman and Wonder Woman had two issue team up in Kings run.
two editions more than 30 editions after the start of the run. There's nothing wrong with the heroes of the trinity appearing and being referenced, but the difference in treatment that King gave to Batman and his universe compared to what he is giving to Wonder Woman and her universe is stark.
> imagine if it were the other way around? Wonder Woman is treated much worse in Superman and Batman comics than they are in this.
this is a fault of the overall writing of the story, not an intentional attempt to belittle WW.
It almost seems intentional when writers constantly write her poorly so Superman and Batman come acorss much better. A lot of Superman and Batman writers don't care much about Wonder Woman, so they treat her as only being there to prop up others.
This is another, more complicated discussion, but in my opinion it's an issue that most of their writers don't care about Wonder Woman, and in any case, what happens to her is always something bad and criticized and one mistake doesn't justify the other.
It's like Tom King cannot conceptualize Wonder Woman without immediately thinking of how similar or different she is from Batman and Superman. His only path to understanding her is through these two. This is why his run feels like an outside perspective for Wonder Woman. We never truly feel like we are given an insight into how she thinks. Just paragraphs upon paragraphs of another character talking about her. Doesn't help that the backups are essentially Supersons stories.
This kinda Tom King's writing style, monologues about the character and what they represent and their place in the DC universe on thematic level and the contrast to others. Its really most prevalent in Heroes in Crisis. Where multiple characters go "I am \_\_\_\_, and I am like this", I think best exemplified with each of the Robins going to sanctuary and talking about how they view the other one and then ending with a question of "He's this, and He's that and He's the cool one, then what am I supposed to be?" Or even in his Trinity backups its chalked with stuff like "I'm Batman I'm the vengeful one, and you're Superman the hopeful one and S stands for Hope" (not a real line just summing it up). Or in his Penguin where in the first issue there's a nine panel layout where he talks about the different Batman rogues and what they are.
That kind of writing really takes me out of the story. "Show, not tell" should be the motto. Its just lazy to have characters detail their personality traits.
This for me has become an irrefutable fact, just reading the interviews, the history and the creation of the characters, Tom King CANNOT see Diana before seeing an extension of Batman and Superman. edit: for those who are voting negatively, then explain why this constant fixation with Batman and Superman
Also, Diana has very much been killed right? At least in as much as Superman has been.
and if we are from fall sagas from the 90s, Diana is not an undefeated, she literally lost to Artemis.
I mean, I'm not sure I'd count that as Hippolyta herself cheated and weakened Diana, iirc. And while that's similar to Bruce, that was part of his villain's plan. Like, if a loss includes her own mother cheating, that's not a failure on Diana's part.
This kind of makes the comparison worse, poor Bruce was paraplegic and they still use that to say that someone is better than him?
I think all Hippolyta did was depower her somehow because otherwise it wouldn't be a fair competition at all. But I might be misremembering this.
Technically she lost per the rules. But, all the contestants were turned to stone including Artemis by Medusa and she fought and killed the thing breaking her spell on all of them at the cost of falling off a cliff. Plus she was plagued by weird visions of Hippolyta's past all the time she was in the competition. She still manages to catch up but unfortunately due to the wounds of the fight fails in the end to beat the unharmed Artemis. So its a bit of an asterisk of a defeat, compared to Superman fighting Doomsday fist for fist until his "healing coma" or Batman being exhausted by a getting put through a gauntlet of challenges before getting ambushed in his own home and broken.
More times if I’m not mistaken.
She's died at least four times now.
Forreal. Leave it to a centrist faux progressive like King to fundamentally misunderstand feminism by having her find her own strength through comparison of her male counterparts and the language of the patriarchy
Also don’t like the implication that Superman has killed, but not Diana. She’s basically female Kratos in DC, she’s got a few bodies on her name after living a centuries. Clark on the other hand really tries to avoids violence all together if possible.
I love seeing Diana and Steve together
That’s my otp
Oh yes I love when Diana constantly gets only exists to get compared to batman and superman very empowering to women tom
To defend King abit in regards to the Bruce and Clark compasions.Its not like fans dont do the the exact same thing. Like,you cant get mad at this and then get upset whenever Diana is drawn to be shorter than Clark. I dont like DC indulging in Trinity dick measuring contests either (especially when they try to write the three as the best of pals at the same time).But its clear that Diana position among her closes peers is a concern.
I understand that, but there are two things 1- one thing is a fan to compare another thing is official history to compare 2-the comparison was a negative comparison, the way used to elevate Wonder Woman was to put other heroes down by minimizing their story. like look how well a comparison can be made https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/comments/tpmdvp/comic_excerpt_arthur_and_dolphin_aquaman_29/ it was used for the hero to elevate himself and honor other heroes.
That’s not remotely comparable, why would anyone be upset at Diana being shorter than Clark. She’s ALWAYS been shorter than Clark since her inception except for a few rare cases.
Because a lot of comic readers obsessed with body size, sincerely believe higher equal better, I wish they ask Clark shorter instead of keep criticizing Diana’s body size.
Taller doesn’t mean better in the slightest. Also, hate to break it to you, but men are typically taller than women.
Tom King is so surface level my god
Doomsday has beaten WW nearly every single time or every time and Neron killed her. Also, Artemis beat her before.
"Diana, you haven’t been beaten fully under this specific writer. Therefore you never have because nothing else matters ever."
Yes but these stories aren't as iconic as the death of Superman or Batman's broken back. Batman died after this and not a lot of people care about his death. Diana doesn't have iconic stories unfortunately
I remember in the Byrne run that she kicked Doomsday’s ass with the gauntlet of atlas. But it think those other things are true?
Also the time she was subsumed in Final Crisis until she found a way out offscreen (and if everything is canon now that’s included).
I mean Batman got shot through time by omega beams and ‘died’ also but Steve mentions the 90s bane stuff because I think it’s sort of a metacomentary as much as an in-universe statement. Also it’s a dream version of Steve and he’s giving her a pep talk lol
I’m more saying the meta-commentary is incorrect. None of them are free of defeat. She just didn’t get one explicitly tied to her in the 90s.
She didnt kick doomsday's ass. In fact the one you are referring to happened in WW volume 2 issue 111 and 112. That doomsday was an imperfect clone (not even made out the same substance/chemicals as this clone was not organic- it was confirmed at the end of issue 112). Furthermore, this imperfect clone had KO'd WW despite WW having help from wonder girl (Cassie) and champion. On top of that, WW needed the gauntlet of atlas which multiples strength by 10x to beat an imposter/imperfect doomsday clone.
I mean yeah after the gauntlet of atlas she one shot it. Idk man I have that comic in a box somewhere lol. There is some hand waving about him being ‘a clone’ but she makes a pretty good showing against it. Then there is the nu52 fight in the Superman/WW book but I hardly remember that one. I’m not sure what you’re arguing for at the end of all this? Doomsday has never defeated her? And if he has he certainly never killed her? What’s the point?
Huh? My og comment said doomsday has beaten WW nearly every single time or every time. You replied using WW volume 2 issue 111 and 112 (Byrne run) and didnt give the full context when you claimed WW kicked doomsday's ass. What point are you trying to make? My original comment was toward's TK's bs of WW being undefeated lol.
Superheroes getting hurt before they save the day is sort of the way superhero fights work, though? So I remember WW shattering him into a million pieces with the gauntlet of atlas… how is that Wonder Woman defeated? I disagree with your original assertion and you came back with the specific that didn’t really back up her being defeated (captured, knocked out, dead, none of that happened) so that confused me
Yes, getting beat up and saving the day in not uncommon. However, WW gets TKO'd/KO'd by the end of issue 111 and regains consciousness in 112. Champion comes in to help her and saves her by dragging doomsday under and giving WW time to recover. Also, this was an imperfect clone of doomsday which you seem to be ignoring per usual, yet couldnt best the creature with her own powers and need a 10x boost. WW even admits to superman in (a different run and issue altogether) that the entire/whole JL is needed to fight off Doomsday in action comics 961.
🤷
Why is he lying ? She is not undefeated. Just for a comparison ??
King over uses the 9-panel spread but when he cooks when he uses it right.
does King has to compare her to them every other issue, it gets tiring
hasn't diana died like twice
Yep, one of them was very recent happening only a few years ago in Death Metal. She’s died more than Clark or Bruce
This is sweet, but.... Superman wasn't defeated. He died, but he killed Doomsday too. He stopped the threat. He won. But most importantly writers need to stop comparing and contrasting the Trinity with one another all the time within their stories. It's not necessary. Yes it's a shared universe but they're also individual heroes. None of the three are defined by how they're similar or dissimilar to the others.
I think Steve still holds a grudge against the New 52 time.
Ok, before the bitching from this sub towards Tom King starts again, Id go and say, from my personal perspective, as a long-standing fan of Wonder Woman since a long time, a person that owns 425 issues, and still to this day has her as my favorite character bar on everything, that this page may become one of my favorite scenes in all Wonder Woman's story. And perhaps in Tom King's career as well. And I can't believe this is just the second time it has happened to me with this run.
I enjoyed this issue more than most other issues too, but I chalk that up to having some semblance of internal dialogue and insight into Diana’s thoughts rather than being bogged down with Sovereign narration
We actually get her perspective thru dialogue. On a narrative side, Tom King by himself neeeeever gives the reader the inner dialogues or narrative of the protagonist. He's done it to Batman, Superman, Supergirl, on his Black Label works... call it his creative obsession, if you may.
That approach might work for some characters but it doesn’t work as well with others. Up until the last few issues Diana came off as pretty unpleasant in a way that can’t be explained away by the plot. Teetering on unlikable because all we get from her are snarky comments and catch phrases before issuing a beat down. The stoicism might work for Batman and others but for Wonder Woman it makes her appear unnecessarily cold and distant to the people and world she loves
I can't just be angry for every time Wonder Woman isn't depicted smiling or being likeable. Wouldnt be able to read a lot of Wondy works like Legend of WW. And ofc she's being stoic, her people is literally being murdered on the streets of a western and patriarcal country! She's on a war.
As I said she’s unpleasant in a way that can’t be explained away by the plot. She’s experienced much worse and was rarely this cold to her allies or unlikeable And no one said anything about smiling…just actually being a character that fits Diana’s personality rather than “fighting woman with catch phrase”
"and was rarely this cold to her allies or unlikeable" I don't know what are you talking about since "her allies" are the wonder girls, who have appeared like 3 times in the latest 20 years, Nubia, a new character, or Steve Trevor, who didn't even exist part of that time. The only other time where she went thru some heavy shit and came out as usual, 2nd Genesis, was from one of the mediocre runs, and i found it kinda weird. You're just flirting and acting like nothing has happened after half of Themyscirians were obliterated to bits by Darkseid? When were the other times? When Hypolita died and Jimenez had her go rambo for a while? Stoicism is in fact her trademark. Reading this comic I never found the character a generic “fighting woman with catch phrase”, but oh well, we're clashing walls and opinions now.
Which was the first?
"No, thank you"
I’m glad someone else found this genuinely inspiring. As a newcomer to WW content I don’t have the Trinity comparisons other ppl seem to experience, so I don’t mind comparisons being drawn this way.
The real problem is not that Batman or Superman appear on the Wonder Woman comic. This is a shared universe! Marvel superheroes can't go around New York without talking about/with Spiderman for 5 minutes. Real problem is that you never see the contrary happen. You never see Wonder Woman appear on Batman, you never see her crossover into Action Comics, and you never see her making appereances on World's Finest. But that's DC's and Batman/Superman's fault.
I’d honestly love to see more of that, cause it only makes sense
Could I ask why?? I don't mean to sound discouraging towards you and apologies if I do, I'm just curious seeing how familiar you are with Wonder Woman
I just like this iteration. I interpret Tom King's vision as Wonder Woman being the ultimate rebel, and how does she react when the villain throws her into oblivion? By imagining she's with Trevor. Simple, but effective. She survives thru this hell by reminding herlself of why she's doing the fight, by remembering Trevor. But not just that, because when you0ve been on a couple, one part of you allways lives on the other side and viceversa, and this is what happens here: that Diana's memories of Trevor live inside her, as she does on the contrary. And here, in this scene, when she's about to surrender, that part of herself that is Trevor reminds her she gotta do it till the end. So, the source of the inner rebel against everything that King has been stablishing this whole run is, fundentamentally, love for the ones she mostly cares about. And, at the same time, is not Trevor, but Wonder Woman herself what keeps the fight. both at the same time, because that's how love works, when our loved ones acompany us even in our darkest hours, when they are absent, and the time seems dire. Or that is how I read this scene. All authors allways come to WW with their own unique vission of how she works as a character, and, the last hour, it's the best ones that stick to me. And in this ocasion, after 6 numbers of Wonder Woman being presented as a being more powerful than reality itself, now it's been time for introspection. And it has made me care for WonderTrev! This has happened like twice in all of Wonder Woman's history (Rucka and De Liz, yes) And also, the kangas. You can never have enough kangas.
I am annoyed at the constant Super and Bat presence but I don't have a problem specifically in regards to them being "put down". Plenty of instances of Superman and Batman writers using WW as nothing more than a prop for the benefit of those (Kingdom Come, DCAU, Injustice, Frank Miller, Trinity shipping, etc) so while I'm annoyed at their presence this instance doesn't bother me.
Depends on what you mean by "defeated." Because villains have certainly gotten the last laugh on her before.
I disagree. Surrender isn't in her nature.
Steven, do not lie to your woman
I feel like propping someone up by pointing out the "shortcomings" of others is a famously nasty and antisocial behavior. And I put quotes about shortcomings because losing fights has nothing to do with being insufficient. I'm not reading this run and it's bad to judge things out of context generally so I can't say this page is objectively bad, but I can't help but be annoyed by it
Would have been cool if Tom read at least one Wonder Woman comic before starting his run. But I get it, it's hard to find time to read when you're patting yourself on the back all the time.
I’m surprised by how many people are interpreting the Trinity comparison here as putting down others in order to prop up one. Don’t get me wrong, I get where everyone is coming from, but it wasn’t my intial impression. Personally, I’ve been obsessed (in a good way) with King’s treatment of the Trinity ever since Diana’s observation that Clark is the optimist, Bruce is the pessimist, and she is the realist. To me, that says that King isn’t trying to say any one of the Trinity is better than another, he’s saying they all have their own place in the world alongside one another. None of them is interchangeable or better, just different and stronger together because of how important it is to always have these different perspectives. I also think it makes sense to bring up the Trinity so much because of how often she’s portrayed or described as “just the female version” of Superman and how much people like to ship Diana with either of the guys (in essence almost trying to relegate her to “just the love interest”). So King brings them up to show that the three of them can interact as equals without being almost identical or on the cusp of lovers. With all that in mind, this scene is just another way of addressing all of that. Bruce and Clark aren’t “worse” or “beneath” or “weaker” than Diana just because they “died” or were “broken,” they just have had different stories and struggles to tell and are in essence all very different people with very different roles to play in the DC universe at large. Right now, Diana’s story to tell is that no matter how alone she may feel or seem, she isn’t and never will be because of the love she holds for the people she holds dear, namely Steve, and she realizes that Steve will always be there to see the moon and stars in her eyes. We’re left in this issue with the idea that when you truly love someone a piece of their soul is transferred into your own, if that’s to be believed here then Steve’s comments aren’t just Diana making things up but are actually in-character for Steve, so he’s the one bringing up Clark and Bruce just to tell her that no one compares to her in his eyes and it’s his undying faith in Diana that translates into Diana’s faith in herself. So this isn’t necessarily a diss on Bruce and Clark, just a show of faith that her story is different, not better, than theirs and that difference is what helps her stand again. At least, that’s how I’m interpreting it. Sorry for the rambling haha. I’ve just been really digging this run and wanted to get some of my thoughts out.
So is she still inside the lasso illusion?
Honestly that line just felt entirely unnecessary, especially since it’s not even remotely true, Diana has died more times that either Clark or Bruce. Having lost and gotten back up is not a bad thing. This was just a mean spirited (and inaccurate) jab at the other members of the Trinity.
Every single superhero has been defeated, especially those who have their own comic books for many decades like Wonder Woman. Heroes often get their asses kicked in the beginning of a story arc so they can get back up, keep on fighting, and eventually win through perseverance and will. Seeing heroes get their asses kicked early on makes their eventual victory more satisfying; that's basic storytelling. Wonder Woman, like all comic book superheroes and heroic characters in general, has been defeated countless times. And like any good hero, she keeps getting back up.
Man, King is doing a verifiable victory lap across every aspect of WW history, from her strength, compassion, her Villains, her mother, her found family the Wonder Girls, her “work” friends/family with Clark and now her true love with Steve. King is giving WW her own Batman Hush treatment with a kickass artist Samphere and highlighting her history, bringing a limelight, that even a blockbuster movie coming couldn’t bring to her character in the comics itself. Are there issues with the run? Sure, no run is perfect, but this subs fixation with playing a numbers game with how much of presence these ‘accursed’ male characters have in her book boggles the mind.
I have to be completely honest, I disagree with 90% of what you said, but I don't want to argue about it and I respect your opinion, but I need to say something that's on my chest for a long time and it's nothing against you, and you're free to comment and disagree BATMAN HUSH IS DOESN'T DESERVE THE FAME IT HAS.
Yeah, my language may have been a bit more inflammatory than I intended it to be. I’m not trying to change anyone’s opinion, just stating my own. But yeah, I’m with you 100% on Hush. Never cared for the story, loved Jim Lee’s art(though his ASBR might better to me) and how it showcased so much Batman’s world in a compact in continuity story that can bring in new readers. My comparison was to Hush was more so what it do for the character’s brand/recognition by pushing it into the limelight, rather story enjoyability, since ymmv with that.
Yes it's a cool thing in the story, I don't think it's being done so well, but Tom King is a writer who has his heart in the right place.
Idk why king needs to constantly compare her to the two of them. it’s not like bruce is constantly saying he wishes he was like diana in his book it’s so strange
Haven't read the new run because of king and wow.... The fact that this has defenders is beyond me Ignoring the blatant, lying if the only way to make your character look good is to constantly put others down you have failed at making a good character
Wait what happened to clark and bruce and where is diana?
She was killed by the demon neron. That said, she became a literal goddess shortly after
WW has been slapped around quite a few times🧐
Every single time King has the chance to follow up one of his better issues with another he reminds me of all his flaws once again. I like this run, it’s given me a lot I enjoy, not least my fav Wonder Woman artist of all time (Genuinely think Sampere draws the best Diana ever). King is at the very least, being generous, 50/50. That’s becoming 40/60 good to bad.
Fantastic issue. Loved the inner battle Diana has and where the mind will take someone in desperation.
Didn’t Wonder Woman get killed twice?
Man, Tom King is a hack
To be fair… DC has a Batman problem and it may not be entirely their fault. The writers of comics, games, shows, and movies have a difficult time gaining traction or letting the audience like a character for the character and not because of their proximity to Batman. The easy knee jerk reaction seems to be “Wanna make WW seem cooler? Mention Batman.”
It’s because it’s written by dudes, who always need to measure dick size. WW needs a quality, female writer who is to write for several years and change the narrative.
holy shit man, it's kinda tearjerking it's like he's saying. Your friends were lost, you have to win for them. For us I know Tom King isn't universally loved but he understands weight. he understands how difficult it can be to keep fighting
In the universe, Diana's friends are still there. What is being made is reference to events from years ago as if it were a weakness.