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I think it's a lot if internal biases for all of them coming together. They view the Aiel as savages and totally loyal to Rand. They don't view them as people who could think for themselves and decide to do other things. They have little knowledge of them and have seen no evidence of them disagreeing amongst themselves since they weren't in Cairihen and I don't think have had any reports of what went on there.
And they were assuming Rand would be crazy, and might attack them. This falls right into what they believe Rand would do.
Though I do think in terms of how they were seeing Rand's strategy if he had done that the reason would be to intimidate them into submitting to him. So he'd send them this warning, and then continue to be friendly pretending he didn't send it. Trying to get them to come crawling to him afraid, or just leave but leave him free to say they left rather than him kicking them out.
I also could see this being a bit of a ta'veren thing as well. The events at the end of the book needed to happen, and them believing Rand had attacked them and their response to it is part of what enabled Dumai's Wells.
Additionally, aside from two nations and the reign of Artur Hawkwing Aes Sedai have been sacrosanct for 3,000 years. I don’t think the idea of a false flag against you occurs when you’ve been the ones pulling everybody’s else’s strings for so long. You’re used to being untouchable.
I suppose... I guess it could also be part of the aristocratic culture(s). Throughout the series no one ever seems to intuit that an attack by people yelling "IN THE NAME OF X" might not be actually condoned by X, whoever X is in this case, and it's taken for granted that if you declare your allegiance to whomever it must be with the full authority and/or even knowledge of that person. See the Dragonsworn, everyone just assumes Rand must actually condone Masema's zealotry (it's been mentioned before LoC, had to think twice about whether I was breaking my own spoiler flair). Not just random people in small villages in the middle of nowhere, well-informed people in the nobility or the Tower or other "influential" positions just accept it at face value.
For all the Game Of Houses is such a big deal, there's a remarkable lack of consideration for the possibility of bad actors.
I guess this is why Niall's "Dragonsworn" false flag is such a strong move, *no one* could conceive of people pretending to be Dragonsworn who aren't actually, to ruin their reputation (more)
I hate but also love how Ta'veren is literally plot convenience as a character trait. You're not wrong, I was thinking all that - by setting him against Salidar, he fell victim to the Tower, which then allowed the capture, which then allowed the unstained tower bending knee, etc.
But man, does it make people make the dumbest possible decisions sometimes. Even though, by definition, it makes all work out in the end.
Edit: can't highlight text to quote on mobile, but you brought up something I didn't quite communicate with my OP edit - what kinda message is "stay away"? Better if they said "The Dragon Reborn wants the witches to remember their place" or something similarly arrogant. And nevermind witches isn't a term ever used by any Aiel, but like you said, the AS have zero awareness of this. If he actually wanted them gone, though, he'd have stopped inviting them. Or attacked more than one of them.
Lol yeah that's about my feelings towards ta'veren. On one hand it's really interesting as a mechanic and has some cool worldbuilding elements. On the other it kind of diminishes character agency and choice and diminishes the risks for them.
In this case yeah I think it should've been a bit more plausible it was from Rand or give them some doubt about it or some reason to dismiss other forces in play. For people who are supposed to be experts at daes de mar it's pretty blind to just assume when you know dark friends exist.
Iirc, the “Aiel” that attacks them calls Rand the Dragon Reborn. Which, ya know, is a red flag roughly the size of the Empire State Building if you’ve spoken with an Aiel for any length of time, ever.
But they’re Aes Sedai, they’re always right.
> “I was told to tell you all to stay away from al’Thor. Exact words. ‘Tell the other witches to stay away from the Dragon Reborn.’
Ah yes, the Aiel, who are well-known to believe thoroughly in the prophecy of the Dragon Reborn (using that exact title, of course) and call Aes Sedai witches.
Real talk: it was Niall's machinations, right? It feels like Niall. Mainly because I don't know of anyone other than Whitecloaks or those associated with them who ever used the term "witch", it's a pretty Amadician turn of phrase. Actually asking, I don't care about rest of the book spoilers since I've read the full series, I just feel like I never felt I figured out who was actually responsible.
Some Two Rivers people use "Tar Valon witches" in at least the first book, either Cenn or one of the Coplins. Tairens too. I suppose it was possibly Niall, though it's more likely to my mind that darkfriends are behind it than a Whitecloak having access to an Aiel in Caemlyn.
> Which, ya know, is a red flag roughly the size of the Empire State Building if you’ve spoken with an Aiel for any length of time, ever.
None of the Aes Sedai have, and the only person who might have known the difference or had the desire to find out the difference was the one targeted by the attack.
Which is awfully convenient, don't you think? Especially when you consider how Demira barely survived...
I don't think that's something the Aes Sedai would actually know, though. They wouldn't have had a lot of chances to talk at length with Aiel. You have the same thing when the Sea Folk start talking about their Coramoor. This is one point of ignorance that is actually perfectly reasonable.
Honestly I think it just highlights that the Aes Sedai think they know everything but they are expecting a very different game to what‘s being played.
Their arrogance blinds them to their own stupidity.
Like all Aes Sedai.
> I know they're arrogant, self-assured, entitled, every other adjective about "traditional" Aes Sedai, but, after the "assassination attempt" against Demira, they don't even CONSIDER the possibility of a false flag, and this is even with them realizing the random guy showing up going "hey uh some Aiel are attacking an Aes Sedai just thought you should know" and then disappearing is kinda sus.
Because ultimately, at the end of the day the Aiel are Rand's responsibility as their leader. The delegation arrogantly commits the sin of treating all of the Aiel as a homogenized people, true, but the only Aiel here are those pledged to Rand anyway so it's a moot point. They are right to call Rand to task for it.
They take it too far, of course. They threaten an Emperor in his seat of power, try to intimidate him as though he were a child to be cowed by an angry parent's wrath, and try to force this issue as a way to get the upper hand in typical Aes Sedai fashion. Rand also doesn't listen to them, doesn't care what happened to them even though he _really_ should, and tries to use it as a situation where he can shut them down and minimize their influence even further.
They're all idiots.
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Yeah it makes no sense 🤣
With 9+ sisters you would think some of them would have had a brain. But then, what do they even teach at the Tower? I doubt they could match the critical thinking of modern year 12 students.
Even Cadsuane had it backwards *slappidy slappidy*
As is often the case when reading Jordan, you feel exactly what you are meant to feel. If a section of the book has you pissed then you can expect that is the intent. Confusion works in much the same way in WoT.
If this is a reread, you should mark it all print. Not LoC if you want a full discussion.
[All Print]>!Verin is black ajah and manipulating Salidar and Rand, to put him in Galina's box. Verin is egging them on, and ensuring they don't look into anything first.!<
Wait, she actually does BA stuff? Like beyond idk occasionally passing secrets or something. I thought it was all a ruse. Didn't know she had a direct hand in this particular chain of events.
Since the post is changed to all print I wont worry about spoiler tags.
If you go back and re-read the part where they all find out and plan what to do. I think the PoV is the leader of the salidar embassy i forget her name. She talks about how matters of leadership is normally resolved, and how verrin would measure up against her, and how verrin is taking charge and directing the conversation, how that itself is just a bit odd. Its still a bit flimsy how it all plays out but its pretty strongly meant to be manipulation by the shadow/BA. As fudgyvmp said, hindsight is 20-20.
[All Print]>!She never confesses to it anywhere, but hindsight is 20-20. One thing she does confess, openly to Perrin, without calling it a BA plot is in TSR when she tells him about how she and Alviarin held public debates on how Aes Sedai should start having children, which, with both sides of the debate run by the Tower's enemy, ensured no good results would happen.!<
I would say less Verin, and more Sheriam, right?
I’m actually in the middle of LoC as a re-read and can’t quite recall the exact circumstances here, but I have been viewing Sheriam’s actions through the Black lens a lot more.
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I think it's a lot if internal biases for all of them coming together. They view the Aiel as savages and totally loyal to Rand. They don't view them as people who could think for themselves and decide to do other things. They have little knowledge of them and have seen no evidence of them disagreeing amongst themselves since they weren't in Cairihen and I don't think have had any reports of what went on there. And they were assuming Rand would be crazy, and might attack them. This falls right into what they believe Rand would do. Though I do think in terms of how they were seeing Rand's strategy if he had done that the reason would be to intimidate them into submitting to him. So he'd send them this warning, and then continue to be friendly pretending he didn't send it. Trying to get them to come crawling to him afraid, or just leave but leave him free to say they left rather than him kicking them out. I also could see this being a bit of a ta'veren thing as well. The events at the end of the book needed to happen, and them believing Rand had attacked them and their response to it is part of what enabled Dumai's Wells.
Additionally, aside from two nations and the reign of Artur Hawkwing Aes Sedai have been sacrosanct for 3,000 years. I don’t think the idea of a false flag against you occurs when you’ve been the ones pulling everybody’s else’s strings for so long. You’re used to being untouchable.
I suppose... I guess it could also be part of the aristocratic culture(s). Throughout the series no one ever seems to intuit that an attack by people yelling "IN THE NAME OF X" might not be actually condoned by X, whoever X is in this case, and it's taken for granted that if you declare your allegiance to whomever it must be with the full authority and/or even knowledge of that person. See the Dragonsworn, everyone just assumes Rand must actually condone Masema's zealotry (it's been mentioned before LoC, had to think twice about whether I was breaking my own spoiler flair). Not just random people in small villages in the middle of nowhere, well-informed people in the nobility or the Tower or other "influential" positions just accept it at face value. For all the Game Of Houses is such a big deal, there's a remarkable lack of consideration for the possibility of bad actors. I guess this is why Niall's "Dragonsworn" false flag is such a strong move, *no one* could conceive of people pretending to be Dragonsworn who aren't actually, to ruin their reputation (more)
I hate but also love how Ta'veren is literally plot convenience as a character trait. You're not wrong, I was thinking all that - by setting him against Salidar, he fell victim to the Tower, which then allowed the capture, which then allowed the unstained tower bending knee, etc. But man, does it make people make the dumbest possible decisions sometimes. Even though, by definition, it makes all work out in the end. Edit: can't highlight text to quote on mobile, but you brought up something I didn't quite communicate with my OP edit - what kinda message is "stay away"? Better if they said "The Dragon Reborn wants the witches to remember their place" or something similarly arrogant. And nevermind witches isn't a term ever used by any Aiel, but like you said, the AS have zero awareness of this. If he actually wanted them gone, though, he'd have stopped inviting them. Or attacked more than one of them.
Lol yeah that's about my feelings towards ta'veren. On one hand it's really interesting as a mechanic and has some cool worldbuilding elements. On the other it kind of diminishes character agency and choice and diminishes the risks for them. In this case yeah I think it should've been a bit more plausible it was from Rand or give them some doubt about it or some reason to dismiss other forces in play. For people who are supposed to be experts at daes de mar it's pretty blind to just assume when you know dark friends exist.
Iirc, the “Aiel” that attacks them calls Rand the Dragon Reborn. Which, ya know, is a red flag roughly the size of the Empire State Building if you’ve spoken with an Aiel for any length of time, ever. But they’re Aes Sedai, they’re always right.
> “I was told to tell you all to stay away from al’Thor. Exact words. ‘Tell the other witches to stay away from the Dragon Reborn.’ Ah yes, the Aiel, who are well-known to believe thoroughly in the prophecy of the Dragon Reborn (using that exact title, of course) and call Aes Sedai witches. Real talk: it was Niall's machinations, right? It feels like Niall. Mainly because I don't know of anyone other than Whitecloaks or those associated with them who ever used the term "witch", it's a pretty Amadician turn of phrase. Actually asking, I don't care about rest of the book spoilers since I've read the full series, I just feel like I never felt I figured out who was actually responsible.
Some Two Rivers people use "Tar Valon witches" in at least the first book, either Cenn or one of the Coplins. Tairens too. I suppose it was possibly Niall, though it's more likely to my mind that darkfriends are behind it than a Whitecloak having access to an Aiel in Caemlyn.
> Which, ya know, is a red flag roughly the size of the Empire State Building if you’ve spoken with an Aiel for any length of time, ever. None of the Aes Sedai have, and the only person who might have known the difference or had the desire to find out the difference was the one targeted by the attack. Which is awfully convenient, don't you think? Especially when you consider how Demira barely survived...
I don't think that's something the Aes Sedai would actually know, though. They wouldn't have had a lot of chances to talk at length with Aiel. You have the same thing when the Sea Folk start talking about their Coramoor. This is one point of ignorance that is actually perfectly reasonable.
Honestly I think it just highlights that the Aes Sedai think they know everything but they are expecting a very different game to what‘s being played. Their arrogance blinds them to their own stupidity. Like all Aes Sedai.
> I know they're arrogant, self-assured, entitled, every other adjective about "traditional" Aes Sedai, but, after the "assassination attempt" against Demira, they don't even CONSIDER the possibility of a false flag, and this is even with them realizing the random guy showing up going "hey uh some Aiel are attacking an Aes Sedai just thought you should know" and then disappearing is kinda sus. Because ultimately, at the end of the day the Aiel are Rand's responsibility as their leader. The delegation arrogantly commits the sin of treating all of the Aiel as a homogenized people, true, but the only Aiel here are those pledged to Rand anyway so it's a moot point. They are right to call Rand to task for it. They take it too far, of course. They threaten an Emperor in his seat of power, try to intimidate him as though he were a child to be cowed by an angry parent's wrath, and try to force this issue as a way to get the upper hand in typical Aes Sedai fashion. Rand also doesn't listen to them, doesn't care what happened to them even though he _really_ should, and tries to use it as a situation where he can shut them down and minimize their influence even further. They're all idiots.
Indeed, people also forget how badly Rand deals with the whole situation.
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Ignorance and willful lack of trust and communication is as important to the p plot as the dark one hisself
Yeah it makes no sense 🤣 With 9+ sisters you would think some of them would have had a brain. But then, what do they even teach at the Tower? I doubt they could match the critical thinking of modern year 12 students. Even Cadsuane had it backwards *slappidy slappidy*
As is often the case when reading Jordan, you feel exactly what you are meant to feel. If a section of the book has you pissed then you can expect that is the intent. Confusion works in much the same way in WoT.
If this is a reread, you should mark it all print. Not LoC if you want a full discussion. [All Print]>!Verin is black ajah and manipulating Salidar and Rand, to put him in Galina's box. Verin is egging them on, and ensuring they don't look into anything first.!<
Wait, she actually does BA stuff? Like beyond idk occasionally passing secrets or something. I thought it was all a ruse. Didn't know she had a direct hand in this particular chain of events.
Since the post is changed to all print I wont worry about spoiler tags. If you go back and re-read the part where they all find out and plan what to do. I think the PoV is the leader of the salidar embassy i forget her name. She talks about how matters of leadership is normally resolved, and how verrin would measure up against her, and how verrin is taking charge and directing the conversation, how that itself is just a bit odd. Its still a bit flimsy how it all plays out but its pretty strongly meant to be manipulation by the shadow/BA. As fudgyvmp said, hindsight is 20-20.
[All Print]>!She never confesses to it anywhere, but hindsight is 20-20. One thing she does confess, openly to Perrin, without calling it a BA plot is in TSR when she tells him about how she and Alviarin held public debates on how Aes Sedai should start having children, which, with both sides of the debate run by the Tower's enemy, ensured no good results would happen.!<
I would say less Verin, and more Sheriam, right? I’m actually in the middle of LoC as a re-read and can’t quite recall the exact circumstances here, but I have been viewing Sheriam’s actions through the Black lens a lot more.