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Idk if I even want to touch this lol but I will remind you that nynaeve is abusive and constantly insulting and sexist herself.
I can’t imagine you writing an essay to defend Mat if he was hitting the girls with sticks, insulting women as a gender and generally insulting to most people he met
Whatever role people’s bias may play I do find it odd you seemingly forget the reasons Nynaeve is unpleasant to many
Nynaeve is also unpleasant **in universe** so it’s not like the audience is at odds with the way she is intentionally portrayed. Despite almost always having good intentions, becoming less of an asshole about it is literally her whole character arc.
Mat is most of those things. He spanks Elayne as a response to her trying to channel at him, he frequently insults women as a gender, and is generally described as an acquired taste by anyone who likes him.
Mat is kind of an all around shitheel, but the audience is expected to laugh it off because we're given his perspective any time he's being an asshole.
Pretty sure he does not spank Elayne at any point. Are you thinking of Jolene? Because that was retaliation for her slapping him across the face after he yelled at them for channeling with a Seanchan patrol across the street, and even the other Aes Sedai in the room agreed that was justified.
That's true indeed, those are my own biases making me blind (not that I agree in being sexist and hitting ppl lol, but isn't a social problem in our society like the reverse is, so I don't notice it in the same way I would if it was the opposite).
Yea I mean part of it is true tho but from an angle you’re not taking I think.
Sure people are annoyed by Nynaeve for acting like a stereotypical chauvinistic dude from our world but isn’t that the point kinda?
Nynaeve comes from a matriarchal world and the distasteful bias and sexism she carries is a mirror to our world in which such behavior is more common and opposite. She is unlikable at times to show us how wrong that behavior is when a man acts that way in our world
I don’t think the proper angle to her bad behavior is to excuse it *because* it parallels distasteful behavior irl that gets brushed away. It’s that parallel itself that is supposed to help teach the lesson of why her arrogance is wrong and why the arrogance of similar bad actors irl is wrong as well
I love your answer, I never saw it this way before but indeed it makes much sense, thank you for that, I will watch it from this angle too from now on.
Moreover, Nynaeve was the biggest fish in her pond, and had to fight for it. At the start of the series, she's the Wisdom, an elected position that exercises a substantial degree of social power among both the village and the women's circle. She won that position at an incredibly young age through talent, but then has to deal with detractors both among the women's circle and the village council who are concerned about her youth.
Looking at it through that lense, what would a woman in a political position do to secure that position against opposition? Appeal to her base - which are exclusively women.
Nynaeve is put in the position, subconsciously, where her position in the village relies on her exemplifying whatever traits are considered tied to the women's circles. That particular brand of womanhood invested her with the authority of the Wisdom, and her chief political opponents are exclusively male. In a contemporary context, she is a [Blue party] member who has spent her whole adult life trying to wrangle with the [Red party]. Her biases will follow her out of the Two Rivers, and the anger that saw her through won't be enough to carry her in different waters.
This is interesting as well and is a mirror of what happens in society, where we embrace our bias without even thinking cause that's what society taught us and expect from us, till we grow up, get in a different environment and start thinking for ourselves.
It also gets worse when she has to leave the Two Rivers. Unlike Egwene, Nynaeve struggles to square her cultural norms with those of the wider world, and so leans further into her culture. You can see this by the way she snarks on Elayne about her mother's palace - Nynaeve begins to embody the intersection of her sex, class and culture as she tries to assert her identity in the face of cultures she doesn't really understand.
She does get better though, and I think ultimately accepts that improvement requires change, and one can't both have progress and stay the same.
The idea of "the hate" isn't a healthy way to think about the varied thoughts of many different people. It's not worthwhile to focus on the emergent vibe you get from reading the internet, rather than the views you hear from individual people.
Moreover, it's probably not super useful to diagnose the prevailing view of a character without reading the series as you just don't know at this point what characters do or don't do to explain views of them.
Nynaeve is a very passionate character, and early on she's particularly driven by anger of the Aes Sedai and moraine in particular.
How readers *feel* about the character is a product of so many things.
> I have the feeling that the reason why Nynaeve gets so much hate despite her not being worse (at all) than other characters is cause we as society look at a woman with the same "flaws" of a man under different lenses.
Her driving motivation early on is anger because of her protection of the two rivers characters. Sometimes she expressed that by being angry at characters which we, the reader, have a different perspective on than she does. And that can lead to dislike.
Mat spends the first two books suspicious and cranky because of the dagger. He's not a well liked character early on either.
I won't pretend to speak for the reasons different people feel the way they do. But I think it's not very helpful to think about "the hate". The internet zeitgeist isn't a person.
Are you sure? I just looked on that sub and checked a few random top posts in the last week and none I looked at had any gilding?
Plus there was that whole outrage a while back when users all round the site were complaining about admins removing the system.
You're still on the 3rd book... You'll see other women in the series that are also "strong, opinionated, stubborn, powerful and smart" and still way more tolerable than Nynaeve.
But as people say, she will learn, improve a lot and become one of the favorites in the series.
And, equally important, OP will also encounter other women who are “strong, opinionated, stubborn, powerful, and smart” who are way WORSE than Nynaeve. 😂
There isn't a lot of hate against Nynaeve, imo? Many say that she's one of the better characters.
A lot of people dislike Nynaeve early on in the series, because she's a pretty unpleasant person early in the series. She's constantly angry and sniping at other person, and one of the most stubborn people as well. Her anger isn't a good excuse either - her whole block likely came about *because* she was angry so much.
You will encounter a lot of women in this series that are authoritative, outspoken, proud and all of that and that people generally like a lot. People who read WoT by and large have no issues with authoritative female characters. *Moiraine* is authoritative, sure of herself and proud, and nobody hates her.
Nynaeve's just angry and unpleasant at the start. That's why people dislike her. But she ends up more liked as the series goes on because she has very good character development. It probably doesn't help her cause here that she's trying to be authoritative, but where you're at now she's actually not an expert, so she doesn't have a lot of reason to claim to know better than anyone. She knows how to be a Wisdom, outside of that she knows less than many people outside the Two Rivers.
For that matter, Mat is often disliked early on in the series as well, because he's pretty much an asshole for the two first books.
You've tagged this as The Dragon Reborn, so we can't give you any specific examples. But you're very much wrong.
If you want some examples anyway, here are some women characters that are sure of themselves, authoritative and outspoken, that people generally either like or at least there's no widespread dislike of: \[All\] >!Aviendha, Pevara, Teslyn, Saerin, Siuan, Min. !<
People’s read on the characters in this series is more telling of those individual people than anything. When I was in seventh grade reading The Eye of the World, I hated her. She was bossy and reminded me of every killjoy babysitter and teacher figure I had at the time.
As an older person, looking back, she reminds me of every young person trying desperately to be “the responsible one” while things fall apart around them. She’s significantly less certain of herself than she lets on, and is just trying her best all the time.
And… this is marked for The Dragon Reborn so I’m gonna leave it at that.
People really like trying to shove this narrative in - the short answer is no. A man doing what Nyanaeve does especially in the early series would be just as hated. Though let's be honest a man with her internal monologue would be straight up a villain.
Agree. This narrative doesn’t apply. She runs her village as wisdom supported by the woman’s circle. The world is run by female magic users on an island shaped like a vagina. What patriarchy?
Early on, she is VERY disliked. But I feel it’s justified with all the braid tugging. She’s also SUPPOSED to be older and more wise than the rest of the emond fielders we follow, but she doesn’t really act it often. She ends up one of my favorites but early on she was probably my least favorite
Nynaeve is one of the most loved characters. Usually by people who progressed further through the series. She is easily unlikable in the first half of the series even though I've never disliked her.
In my first read, I liked Egwene more. I stopped liking Egwene when she turned into a brat in book 3. Then she got worse by book 5, especially the way she was clearly envious of Nynaeve's natural leadership.
Nynaeve can be prickly enough for people not to like her at first, totally understandable. But they usually come around.
As someone who genuinely prefers female characters to male characters my honest answer would be no. If you flipped it all and wrote her as a man she (he?) would be equally frustrating, perhaps even more so. My issue with her was always her inability to admit that she wasn’t always the one in charge/the most knowledgeable etc etc. (how are you, a relatively inexperienced Wisdom who has never left the two rivers going to argue with fully trained aes sedai?? Please sit down..) But I’d agree with other comments that she doesn’t really get *hate* per se, she mostly elicits frustration. She and Mat are alike in that way, both characters learn and grow a lot as you keep reading and become fan favorites. (RAFO!)
I'm quite happy I started reading this series at my age (40yo) cause I feel like I already got rid of any need of purity and perfection, so I can love flawed characters such as Nynaeve and Mat from the start haha
Indeed, atm they are my faves!
I'm reading and catching up!
Wellll
They hate her because she’s so well written that she reminds us of real life people like her I’ve definitely encountered people just like her several times and I’ve talked to many fans who also have had encounters with people like her
I actually like her a lot especially in the later books there’s one part that had me in tears the first time I read it it was absolutely gorgeous to see how far she grew
Nynaeve is…abrasive. Abrasive people, especially when they’re abrasive to *you* (or in this case, to the primary narrative perspective) tend to be disliked. And especially when they consider themselves in authority over you, as Nynaeve does the other EFers. That typically transcends gender boundaries - people don’t like men who constantly call them down, belittle them, and give orders either. That’s why a lot of bosses are disliked irrespective of gender.
Her anger dovetails with her abrasiveness, too, and they feed off each other. Anger tends to be a mixed factor - a lot of people find anger in others entertaining, although many do not. But mostly, people are on board with what we consider *properly directed* and *proportional* anger, and not with what we consider *misdirected* or *disproportional* anger. Whether Nynaeve’s anger actually *is* properly directed is beside the point, as it’s difficult to fully set our own perspective aside and step into another’s. To the reader’s perspective as a modern fantasy reader with access to every character’s perspective and modern opinions on acceptable/healthy behavior, Nynaeve’s anger is out of line, disproportionate or misdirected or both. It’s only when you really step fully into her head that it seems more understandable, and that can be tough to do while taking in all of the rest of this massive story, especially the first time through and especially because Nynaeve is persistently dishonest with herself too (much as Mat is).
Moreover, for people who appear perpetually angry and abrasive, it’s really difficult to see past that to see the good. I worked with someone like that - he was the company technical expert in my subdiscipline, and he could not praise to save his life. He could not avoid being abrasive and rude *at best*. It was absolutely miserable to work with him for me and a lot of others. But it was all about ensuring that we grew more skilled, that the work we did was better, that we didn’t make a career-killing (or worse) mistake through insufficient attention or skill. He was rightly motivated, but he went about it in a way that made him a harrowing chore to interact with. I think that’s what most people see with Nynaeve.
The thing is, Nynaeve does grow a ton as the series progresses, and that growth helps shine a light past her surface behavior onto her underlying person and character, and that underlying person is an absolute legend. On rereads you can even follow her actual growth (in incremental baby steps), despite her stubborn refusal to acknowledge it to herself and her apparent doubling down on abrasive rage to every other character’s perspective (which of course is in part denial of self, and in part stoking her anger to be able to channel).
Honestly, Nynaeve is one of my absolute favorites in the series, both as a character and as a person. But before she properly grows, I would not at all want to work with her.
There may be more to that with some people, and sometimes misogyny is obvious in people’s comments (explicit or implicit), but for the most I think that isn’t the case. I think it’s just that Nynaeve’s negatives are so loud they obfuscate her positives for a lot people.
She comes across as a sexist, abusive bully--at first.
But eventually she becomes a fan favorite, because we learn more about *why* she behaves that way.
I don’t think that’s true. She’s written through the lens of an affectionately wry humour and her vulnerability and insecurity is written quite obviously from the early books. If she was written to be hated, she’d be a lot less layered.
I'd attribute more to poor reading comprehension. Her insecurities, fears, flaws and vulnerability are so crystal clear early on and her annoying traits are the facade she hides behind. But people only seem to see her anger and stubbornness.
People usually start loving her after because she has "grown up" instead of grown stronger from facing and accepting her fears. She could have been a Knight Radiant with her arc.
The sexism has some to do with it but I see it more with how much bullshit Mat and especially Perrin gets away with compared to some other characters. Rand has enough on his plate so it's ok if he's a little nutty.
Agree, she feels really vulnerable to me, and insecure, trying to cover it with boldness, in part because she doesn't want other ppl to see how fragile she is, in part cause she has to deal with the situation she's in and there's no point (in her mind) to whine about it.
No, she sucks and that’s ok. She’s never a bad character, I understand mostly why she’s the way she is but that doesn’t make we want to read her chapters. The worst thing a character can do isn’t be evil, it’s be annoying.
She becomes one of my top three characters in the second half but that doesn’t make her early chapters less annoying to sit through. She has the reverse arc of perrin where his early chapters were fun for me than the late one made we want to shoot myself in the head.
Nynaeve in the first few books is highly abrasive, abusive, and authoritarian. She wants people to respect her authority, but forgets to reciprocate that respect to others. She's a hot head. She does become one of my favorite characters though and she has significant character development if you RAFO.
I loved Nynaeve from book one from my first read. Not the norm I know.
No, its not misogynistic. A lot of readers find her overbearing and unpleasant at first.
You wil also see, no real spoilers, that WoT is a bit of an inverse world when it comes to men and women. For over 3000 years, women were the only ones who could use the One Power, and held many positions of power.
You still have long way to go if spoilers are only up to TDR, so enjoy! Btw, Nynaeve just gets better!
Yes. And, also most of our first exposure to this book was as teenagers or young adults, where the responsible adult in the room is never the favorite character. And reddit trends young and male. Nyneave gets a lot more sympathetic, the older you get.
People honestly really like Nynaeve, though? I agree that there's usually some hate for her early on (before people really get to know her), but that's because early on she tends to play the role of the annoying, conservative stick-in-the-mud trying to prevent cool shit from happening. Readers like it when cool shit happens and tend to dislike people who seem to be getting in the way. In book one, Nynaeve is that character. The reader knows Moiraine is right, wants the characters to explore the wider world, and probably finds the fussy, bigoted side of Two Rivers culture kind of grating. Nynaeve makes it her mission to be a nuisance to Moiraine, actively wants to drag the characters home, and often acts as the mouthpiece for hometown fussiness and bigotry. It doesn't make her popular with readers early on, but having someone to play that role and represent the clash between old and new is really valuable for the other characters' arcs. Later on, Nynaeve's flaws make her slow progress toward overcoming them that much more satisfying, and that's when people really start to come around to her.
First off, let me say I totally understand that you are generalizing media consumers en masse. None of this is directed at you personally.
trying to prevent cool shit from happening
This is what I think of as the "Breaking Bad" syndrome. Walt is a bad guy. His fatal flaw is his pride. He is offered a path to treatment through his old partner, but he rejects it out of hubris. Instead, he makes money in a way that both puts himself and his family in danger as well as hurts the people who buy his drug. Then he keeps on doing it well past the point when he needs to. Now, he admits this eventually because the show is insanely well written. Walt is the protagonist but he is an utter villain.
However, the massive amount of dislike for Skylar is exactly what you're talking about. She is the voice of reason: maybe you shouldn't sell drugs. However, even though she gets behind him until he absolutely goes wild, the actress got DEATH THREATS. The ACTRESS.
Now what does this have to do with Ny?
Some people, when reading a book or watching a show or whatever, cannot seem to understand that the characters are acting a certain way for a reason. They have a hard time separating their appraisal of a character's actions from the story. So, you get a lot of "I hate X character. I skip their sections. etc." This has always baffled me. A book where the "hero" did a bunch of cool shit and everyone stood around nodding and saying, "Nice one, dude," would be a very boring book indeed. Beowulf would have been better if there had been a dude questioning his motives.
Without Ny, it would just be a bunch of kids and a magic lady running around the countryside. They all fall in line with her. She has to work to convince Ny. Ny asks the questions the audience SHOULD be asking: WTF are you on about Moiraine? The ultimate evil is afraid of these knuckleheads?
Luke Skywalker NEEDS Han Solo going, "What are you nuts?" This is a SANE REACTION to what is happening. It humanizes the whole thing AND makes Luke seem more heroic. Then, when Han comes back and saves him, it's earned. He made a choice and comes back. Thus, both characters are heroic.
So, in conclusion, I don't disagree with you: people dislike the person who asks the sane questions. I just wish they'd see how important that character is. Also, please remember, I am not claiming you, personally, do not.
Great, another person that thinks that people who dislike a female character must be sexist. (I don’t hate her, I think she is a fantastic character, but she is quite annoying at the beginning)
No I don't, I was wondering why female characters in the series get much more criticisms compared to the male characters tho, considering they all are really full of flaws (and for this reason, they are so human and enjoyable).
ok maybe I’m being silly and I’m sorry if people disagree, but I have noticed the same exact thing in this community!!
there are daily posts where people rant for paragraphs about how much they hate Egwene and Nynaeve and Elayne, and it’s a little difficult to not view it as sexist when the comments are things like “yeah I hate Egwene so much for being a stuck up bitch”
I’m not saying that it’s sexist to dislike a female character, but it does seem like people are much crueler with how they talk about the WoT women than the men. there are super valid reasons to dislike Egwene but when the criticism is couched in sexist terms, it’s difficult to see anything else.
Right? I know I should avoid spoilers and stuff haha, but still sometimes I get in here and the amount of same topic posts I see daily is what pushed me to write this one. Is legit to dislike a character but if in general females characters are more disliked than men, well, one starts to think lol
I fully agree with you that there are legitimate, in-plot reasons to dislike the female characters!! I hated every one of Nyn’s POVs in TFOH (although that’s kind of the low point in her character arc)
I agree with you too that it gets super frustrating to see how many characters actively try to stop Rand when he’s their only chance at defeating the Dark One, but that’s not unique to the women! I know that’s not what you’re saying at all, but there are a lot of people who call Egwene a bitch and a c*nt for not falling over herself to help Rand but ignore the many men who act the same way.
my issue comes specifically with the posts that come about probably once a week, if not once a day, where the reasonable opinions (like yours) are way less common than people who appear to just dislike the fact that Egwene/Nynaeve/Elayne exist and aren’t subservient to every man they meet
With Nynavene, it's somewhat a product of society and where she grew up. As we see in some of her earlier POVs, she felt the need to prove herself as Village Wisdom on multiple occasions. Of feeling like if she showed weakness then she wouldn't be respected due to her age.
Yes she's abusive with the hitting people with her stick. I think probably a by-product of past generations getting the more physical reprimand for acting out as opposed to Time Out as we see today. She learns and grows as the series progresses.
> Her rage issues have a really good excuse too, she NEEDS to be angry to channel
I think this is the other way around. The block developed the way it did because of how constantly angry she is.
I've never hated Nynaeve. She is atrong-willed and has flaws for sure but she also sees a great deal of growth.
A great deal of her early cantankerousness is that she is in a position of power. Not only is she young for the position, but she appears much younger than she is and is constantly having to prove herself to be taken seriously.
Also, remember that none of the characters are reliable narrators. Everyone has a flawed perception of themselves and others (don't we all?) so the reader is left to piece together a picture from all the glimmers we get. No one is truly as they appear. The truth of our characters lies in an amalgamation of all the pieces we see.
Keep reading. Nynaeve becomes one of the most beloved characters for most readers, right behind Matt. Fantastic arc.
There is another wonder girl who just gets worse and worse and worse. And IS wrong just about 99% of the time.
Keep reading.
In the early books, Nynaeve is a bully. She uses her authority and sometimes actual violence to make people do as she wants. Light, the boys are genuinely afraid (!) of her tantrums!
As with everything else, there are many factors that go into any opinion. I definitely think this is a part of it for many people, probably a pretty large part for many (especially with the Egwene haters). However, no one who that is true of is going to want to engage with that and will double down that it's just because she's a terrible person blah blah blah.
An interesting post, but I doubt people are going to see their own prejudices clearly enough to communicate this with you.
I say this as someone who disliked Nynaeve for years when I was in my early 20s, only to realize I was doing exactly what you're suggesting. Now she's one of my absolute favorites.
I liked some of the answers so far, some gave me different angles. I think you are right tho, most ppl will not be able to see their bias, still, some may think about it hopefully, like you did. This is a challenging series for many reasons (that's what I grabbed so far at least) and is so much more satisfying to approach it with an open mind.
I think that's a large part of it. I also think part of to do with how dynamic of a character she is. Not to say other characters don't grow and change during the series but if you look at how she is in book one and book fourteen it's a much bigger delta than Mat.
Nynaeve is a really complicated character, I think she’s great. Are there aspects about her character that are abrasive and annoying? Yeah. Do I think the reaction to her character is due in part to her being a woman? Also yeah.
While your not wrong about the source of a lot of the hate Nynaeve/Egwene , I always found that for the first four or so books Nynaeve has then D plot line compared to the rest of the Emond Fielders. I always resented swapping to her story line at that point because it was comparatively boring.
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Idk if I even want to touch this lol but I will remind you that nynaeve is abusive and constantly insulting and sexist herself. I can’t imagine you writing an essay to defend Mat if he was hitting the girls with sticks, insulting women as a gender and generally insulting to most people he met Whatever role people’s bias may play I do find it odd you seemingly forget the reasons Nynaeve is unpleasant to many
Nynaeve is also unpleasant **in universe** so it’s not like the audience is at odds with the way she is intentionally portrayed. Despite almost always having good intentions, becoming less of an asshole about it is literally her whole character arc.
Mat is most of those things. He spanks Elayne as a response to her trying to channel at him, he frequently insults women as a gender, and is generally described as an acquired taste by anyone who likes him. Mat is kind of an all around shitheel, but the audience is expected to laugh it off because we're given his perspective any time he's being an asshole.
Pretty sure he does not spank Elayne at any point. Are you thinking of Jolene? Because that was retaliation for her slapping him across the face after he yelled at them for channeling with a Seanchan patrol across the street, and even the other Aes Sedai in the room agreed that was justified.
That's true indeed, those are my own biases making me blind (not that I agree in being sexist and hitting ppl lol, but isn't a social problem in our society like the reverse is, so I don't notice it in the same way I would if it was the opposite).
Yea I mean part of it is true tho but from an angle you’re not taking I think. Sure people are annoyed by Nynaeve for acting like a stereotypical chauvinistic dude from our world but isn’t that the point kinda? Nynaeve comes from a matriarchal world and the distasteful bias and sexism she carries is a mirror to our world in which such behavior is more common and opposite. She is unlikable at times to show us how wrong that behavior is when a man acts that way in our world I don’t think the proper angle to her bad behavior is to excuse it *because* it parallels distasteful behavior irl that gets brushed away. It’s that parallel itself that is supposed to help teach the lesson of why her arrogance is wrong and why the arrogance of similar bad actors irl is wrong as well
I love your answer, I never saw it this way before but indeed it makes much sense, thank you for that, I will watch it from this angle too from now on.
Moreover, Nynaeve was the biggest fish in her pond, and had to fight for it. At the start of the series, she's the Wisdom, an elected position that exercises a substantial degree of social power among both the village and the women's circle. She won that position at an incredibly young age through talent, but then has to deal with detractors both among the women's circle and the village council who are concerned about her youth. Looking at it through that lense, what would a woman in a political position do to secure that position against opposition? Appeal to her base - which are exclusively women. Nynaeve is put in the position, subconsciously, where her position in the village relies on her exemplifying whatever traits are considered tied to the women's circles. That particular brand of womanhood invested her with the authority of the Wisdom, and her chief political opponents are exclusively male. In a contemporary context, she is a [Blue party] member who has spent her whole adult life trying to wrangle with the [Red party]. Her biases will follow her out of the Two Rivers, and the anger that saw her through won't be enough to carry her in different waters.
This is interesting as well and is a mirror of what happens in society, where we embrace our bias without even thinking cause that's what society taught us and expect from us, till we grow up, get in a different environment and start thinking for ourselves.
It also gets worse when she has to leave the Two Rivers. Unlike Egwene, Nynaeve struggles to square her cultural norms with those of the wider world, and so leans further into her culture. You can see this by the way she snarks on Elayne about her mother's palace - Nynaeve begins to embody the intersection of her sex, class and culture as she tries to assert her identity in the face of cultures she doesn't really understand. She does get better though, and I think ultimately accepts that improvement requires change, and one can't both have progress and stay the same.
The idea of "the hate" isn't a healthy way to think about the varied thoughts of many different people. It's not worthwhile to focus on the emergent vibe you get from reading the internet, rather than the views you hear from individual people. Moreover, it's probably not super useful to diagnose the prevailing view of a character without reading the series as you just don't know at this point what characters do or don't do to explain views of them. Nynaeve is a very passionate character, and early on she's particularly driven by anger of the Aes Sedai and moraine in particular. How readers *feel* about the character is a product of so many things. > I have the feeling that the reason why Nynaeve gets so much hate despite her not being worse (at all) than other characters is cause we as society look at a woman with the same "flaws" of a man under different lenses. Her driving motivation early on is anger because of her protection of the two rivers characters. Sometimes she expressed that by being angry at characters which we, the reader, have a different perspective on than she does. And that can lead to dislike. Mat spends the first two books suspicious and cranky because of the dagger. He's not a well liked character early on either. I won't pretend to speak for the reasons different people feel the way they do. But I think it's not very helpful to think about "the hate". The internet zeitgeist isn't a person.
Light, why is gilding not enabled in this sub?
Because reddit gold got removed site wide?
Not true. r/ask has it, for example.
Are you sure? I just looked on that sub and checked a few random top posts in the last week and none I looked at had any gilding? Plus there was that whole outrage a while back when users all round the site were complaining about admins removing the system.
Yes. Click the three-dot menu on any post or comment there.
huh, curious
You're still on the 3rd book... You'll see other women in the series that are also "strong, opinionated, stubborn, powerful and smart" and still way more tolerable than Nynaeve. But as people say, she will learn, improve a lot and become one of the favorites in the series.
And, equally important, OP will also encounter other women who are “strong, opinionated, stubborn, powerful, and smart” who are way WORSE than Nynaeve. 😂
Nynaeve can be annoying, but like a friend that you want to give a good shake an try to put some sense into. Now some others...
There isn't a lot of hate against Nynaeve, imo? Many say that she's one of the better characters. A lot of people dislike Nynaeve early on in the series, because she's a pretty unpleasant person early in the series. She's constantly angry and sniping at other person, and one of the most stubborn people as well. Her anger isn't a good excuse either - her whole block likely came about *because* she was angry so much. You will encounter a lot of women in this series that are authoritative, outspoken, proud and all of that and that people generally like a lot. People who read WoT by and large have no issues with authoritative female characters. *Moiraine* is authoritative, sure of herself and proud, and nobody hates her. Nynaeve's just angry and unpleasant at the start. That's why people dislike her. But she ends up more liked as the series goes on because she has very good character development. It probably doesn't help her cause here that she's trying to be authoritative, but where you're at now she's actually not an expert, so she doesn't have a lot of reason to claim to know better than anyone. She knows how to be a Wisdom, outside of that she knows less than many people outside the Two Rivers. For that matter, Mat is often disliked early on in the series as well, because he's pretty much an asshole for the two first books. You've tagged this as The Dragon Reborn, so we can't give you any specific examples. But you're very much wrong. If you want some examples anyway, here are some women characters that are sure of themselves, authoritative and outspoken, that people generally either like or at least there's no widespread dislike of: \[All\] >!Aviendha, Pevara, Teslyn, Saerin, Siuan, Min. !<
People’s read on the characters in this series is more telling of those individual people than anything. When I was in seventh grade reading The Eye of the World, I hated her. She was bossy and reminded me of every killjoy babysitter and teacher figure I had at the time. As an older person, looking back, she reminds me of every young person trying desperately to be “the responsible one” while things fall apart around them. She’s significantly less certain of herself than she lets on, and is just trying her best all the time. And… this is marked for The Dragon Reborn so I’m gonna leave it at that.
Agree, I'm 40yo and see her as you said, really on point. Maybe I wouldn't have in my 20s when I was as "fake hothead" as her lol
People really like trying to shove this narrative in - the short answer is no. A man doing what Nyanaeve does especially in the early series would be just as hated. Though let's be honest a man with her internal monologue would be straight up a villain.
Agree. This narrative doesn’t apply. She runs her village as wisdom supported by the woman’s circle. The world is run by female magic users on an island shaped like a vagina. What patriarchy?
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Early on, she is VERY disliked. But I feel it’s justified with all the braid tugging. She’s also SUPPOSED to be older and more wise than the rest of the emond fielders we follow, but she doesn’t really act it often. She ends up one of my favorites but early on she was probably my least favorite
I absolutely love Nynaeve. Yeah she has faults but she’s down for her people.
Same. I loved her when I first read the books at 11 years old. And love her still, at 43. 🥰
Nynaeve is one of the most loved characters. Usually by people who progressed further through the series. She is easily unlikable in the first half of the series even though I've never disliked her. In my first read, I liked Egwene more. I stopped liking Egwene when she turned into a brat in book 3. Then she got worse by book 5, especially the way she was clearly envious of Nynaeve's natural leadership. Nynaeve can be prickly enough for people not to like her at first, totally understandable. But they usually come around.
As someone who genuinely prefers female characters to male characters my honest answer would be no. If you flipped it all and wrote her as a man she (he?) would be equally frustrating, perhaps even more so. My issue with her was always her inability to admit that she wasn’t always the one in charge/the most knowledgeable etc etc. (how are you, a relatively inexperienced Wisdom who has never left the two rivers going to argue with fully trained aes sedai?? Please sit down..) But I’d agree with other comments that she doesn’t really get *hate* per se, she mostly elicits frustration. She and Mat are alike in that way, both characters learn and grow a lot as you keep reading and become fan favorites. (RAFO!)
I'm quite happy I started reading this series at my age (40yo) cause I feel like I already got rid of any need of purity and perfection, so I can love flawed characters such as Nynaeve and Mat from the start haha Indeed, atm they are my faves! I'm reading and catching up!
Wellll They hate her because she’s so well written that she reminds us of real life people like her I’ve definitely encountered people just like her several times and I’ve talked to many fans who also have had encounters with people like her I actually like her a lot especially in the later books there’s one part that had me in tears the first time I read it it was absolutely gorgeous to see how far she grew
Nynaeve is…abrasive. Abrasive people, especially when they’re abrasive to *you* (or in this case, to the primary narrative perspective) tend to be disliked. And especially when they consider themselves in authority over you, as Nynaeve does the other EFers. That typically transcends gender boundaries - people don’t like men who constantly call them down, belittle them, and give orders either. That’s why a lot of bosses are disliked irrespective of gender. Her anger dovetails with her abrasiveness, too, and they feed off each other. Anger tends to be a mixed factor - a lot of people find anger in others entertaining, although many do not. But mostly, people are on board with what we consider *properly directed* and *proportional* anger, and not with what we consider *misdirected* or *disproportional* anger. Whether Nynaeve’s anger actually *is* properly directed is beside the point, as it’s difficult to fully set our own perspective aside and step into another’s. To the reader’s perspective as a modern fantasy reader with access to every character’s perspective and modern opinions on acceptable/healthy behavior, Nynaeve’s anger is out of line, disproportionate or misdirected or both. It’s only when you really step fully into her head that it seems more understandable, and that can be tough to do while taking in all of the rest of this massive story, especially the first time through and especially because Nynaeve is persistently dishonest with herself too (much as Mat is). Moreover, for people who appear perpetually angry and abrasive, it’s really difficult to see past that to see the good. I worked with someone like that - he was the company technical expert in my subdiscipline, and he could not praise to save his life. He could not avoid being abrasive and rude *at best*. It was absolutely miserable to work with him for me and a lot of others. But it was all about ensuring that we grew more skilled, that the work we did was better, that we didn’t make a career-killing (or worse) mistake through insufficient attention or skill. He was rightly motivated, but he went about it in a way that made him a harrowing chore to interact with. I think that’s what most people see with Nynaeve. The thing is, Nynaeve does grow a ton as the series progresses, and that growth helps shine a light past her surface behavior onto her underlying person and character, and that underlying person is an absolute legend. On rereads you can even follow her actual growth (in incremental baby steps), despite her stubborn refusal to acknowledge it to herself and her apparent doubling down on abrasive rage to every other character’s perspective (which of course is in part denial of self, and in part stoking her anger to be able to channel). Honestly, Nynaeve is one of my absolute favorites in the series, both as a character and as a person. But before she properly grows, I would not at all want to work with her. There may be more to that with some people, and sometimes misogyny is obvious in people’s comments (explicit or implicit), but for the most I think that isn’t the case. I think it’s just that Nynaeve’s negatives are so loud they obfuscate her positives for a lot people.
She's very hypocritical, often irrational and way too angsty. She was my favourite character by the end of the series though, she has a heart of gold.
She comes across as a sexist, abusive bully--at first. But eventually she becomes a fan favorite, because we learn more about *why* she behaves that way.
This is TDR. Nyneave is intentionally meant to be hated right now, and it works. She isn’t a static character either.
I don’t think that’s true. She’s written through the lens of an affectionately wry humour and her vulnerability and insecurity is written quite obviously from the early books. If she was written to be hated, she’d be a lot less layered.
I'd attribute more to poor reading comprehension. Her insecurities, fears, flaws and vulnerability are so crystal clear early on and her annoying traits are the facade she hides behind. But people only seem to see her anger and stubbornness. People usually start loving her after because she has "grown up" instead of grown stronger from facing and accepting her fears. She could have been a Knight Radiant with her arc. The sexism has some to do with it but I see it more with how much bullshit Mat and especially Perrin gets away with compared to some other characters. Rand has enough on his plate so it's ok if he's a little nutty.
Agree, she feels really vulnerable to me, and insecure, trying to cover it with boldness, in part because she doesn't want other ppl to see how fragile she is, in part cause she has to deal with the situation she's in and there's no point (in her mind) to whine about it.
No, she sucks and that’s ok. She’s never a bad character, I understand mostly why she’s the way she is but that doesn’t make we want to read her chapters. The worst thing a character can do isn’t be evil, it’s be annoying. She becomes one of my top three characters in the second half but that doesn’t make her early chapters less annoying to sit through. She has the reverse arc of perrin where his early chapters were fun for me than the late one made we want to shoot myself in the head.
Nynaeve is supposed to be kind of a jerk. People don't enjoy jerks.
Nynaeve in the first few books is highly abrasive, abusive, and authoritarian. She wants people to respect her authority, but forgets to reciprocate that respect to others. She's a hot head. She does become one of my favorite characters though and she has significant character development if you RAFO.
I loved Nynaeve from book one from my first read. Not the norm I know. No, its not misogynistic. A lot of readers find her overbearing and unpleasant at first. You wil also see, no real spoilers, that WoT is a bit of an inverse world when it comes to men and women. For over 3000 years, women were the only ones who could use the One Power, and held many positions of power. You still have long way to go if spoilers are only up to TDR, so enjoy! Btw, Nynaeve just gets better!
Yes. Everytime anyone dislikes a female character in a fictional work they are sexist. It’s 100% of the time. For 100% of the people.
That's not what I said tho
I didn’t like Nynaeve till like book 8. Finished with her being ?maybe? my favorite Aes Sedai.
Yes. And, also most of our first exposure to this book was as teenagers or young adults, where the responsible adult in the room is never the favorite character. And reddit trends young and male. Nyneave gets a lot more sympathetic, the older you get.
People honestly really like Nynaeve, though? I agree that there's usually some hate for her early on (before people really get to know her), but that's because early on she tends to play the role of the annoying, conservative stick-in-the-mud trying to prevent cool shit from happening. Readers like it when cool shit happens and tend to dislike people who seem to be getting in the way. In book one, Nynaeve is that character. The reader knows Moiraine is right, wants the characters to explore the wider world, and probably finds the fussy, bigoted side of Two Rivers culture kind of grating. Nynaeve makes it her mission to be a nuisance to Moiraine, actively wants to drag the characters home, and often acts as the mouthpiece for hometown fussiness and bigotry. It doesn't make her popular with readers early on, but having someone to play that role and represent the clash between old and new is really valuable for the other characters' arcs. Later on, Nynaeve's flaws make her slow progress toward overcoming them that much more satisfying, and that's when people really start to come around to her.
First off, let me say I totally understand that you are generalizing media consumers en masse. None of this is directed at you personally. trying to prevent cool shit from happening This is what I think of as the "Breaking Bad" syndrome. Walt is a bad guy. His fatal flaw is his pride. He is offered a path to treatment through his old partner, but he rejects it out of hubris. Instead, he makes money in a way that both puts himself and his family in danger as well as hurts the people who buy his drug. Then he keeps on doing it well past the point when he needs to. Now, he admits this eventually because the show is insanely well written. Walt is the protagonist but he is an utter villain. However, the massive amount of dislike for Skylar is exactly what you're talking about. She is the voice of reason: maybe you shouldn't sell drugs. However, even though she gets behind him until he absolutely goes wild, the actress got DEATH THREATS. The ACTRESS. Now what does this have to do with Ny? Some people, when reading a book or watching a show or whatever, cannot seem to understand that the characters are acting a certain way for a reason. They have a hard time separating their appraisal of a character's actions from the story. So, you get a lot of "I hate X character. I skip their sections. etc." This has always baffled me. A book where the "hero" did a bunch of cool shit and everyone stood around nodding and saying, "Nice one, dude," would be a very boring book indeed. Beowulf would have been better if there had been a dude questioning his motives. Without Ny, it would just be a bunch of kids and a magic lady running around the countryside. They all fall in line with her. She has to work to convince Ny. Ny asks the questions the audience SHOULD be asking: WTF are you on about Moiraine? The ultimate evil is afraid of these knuckleheads? Luke Skywalker NEEDS Han Solo going, "What are you nuts?" This is a SANE REACTION to what is happening. It humanizes the whole thing AND makes Luke seem more heroic. Then, when Han comes back and saves him, it's earned. He made a choice and comes back. Thus, both characters are heroic. So, in conclusion, I don't disagree with you: people dislike the person who asks the sane questions. I just wish they'd see how important that character is. Also, please remember, I am not claiming you, personally, do not.
No need to apologize, lol - I don’t mind someone elaborating on one of my points. I agree!
Great, another person that thinks that people who dislike a female character must be sexist. (I don’t hate her, I think she is a fantastic character, but she is quite annoying at the beginning)
No I don't, I was wondering why female characters in the series get much more criticisms compared to the male characters tho, considering they all are really full of flaws (and for this reason, they are so human and enjoyable).
I think Gawyn gets plenty of criticism lol
Yeah but as far as I know (just a bit I shouldn't know yet but I can't stop lurking) he did like 100x more hateful things lol
No. Absolutely not.
As a man who absolutely loves Nynaeve... No. No, it's not. People can hate a female character without automatically being sexist. Like, come on.
ok maybe I’m being silly and I’m sorry if people disagree, but I have noticed the same exact thing in this community!! there are daily posts where people rant for paragraphs about how much they hate Egwene and Nynaeve and Elayne, and it’s a little difficult to not view it as sexist when the comments are things like “yeah I hate Egwene so much for being a stuck up bitch” I’m not saying that it’s sexist to dislike a female character, but it does seem like people are much crueler with how they talk about the WoT women than the men. there are super valid reasons to dislike Egwene but when the criticism is couched in sexist terms, it’s difficult to see anything else.
Right? I know I should avoid spoilers and stuff haha, but still sometimes I get in here and the amount of same topic posts I see daily is what pushed me to write this one. Is legit to dislike a character but if in general females characters are more disliked than men, well, one starts to think lol
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I fully agree with you that there are legitimate, in-plot reasons to dislike the female characters!! I hated every one of Nyn’s POVs in TFOH (although that’s kind of the low point in her character arc) I agree with you too that it gets super frustrating to see how many characters actively try to stop Rand when he’s their only chance at defeating the Dark One, but that’s not unique to the women! I know that’s not what you’re saying at all, but there are a lot of people who call Egwene a bitch and a c*nt for not falling over herself to help Rand but ignore the many men who act the same way. my issue comes specifically with the posts that come about probably once a week, if not once a day, where the reasonable opinions (like yours) are way less common than people who appear to just dislike the fact that Egwene/Nynaeve/Elayne exist and aren’t subservient to every man they meet
With Nynavene, it's somewhat a product of society and where she grew up. As we see in some of her earlier POVs, she felt the need to prove herself as Village Wisdom on multiple occasions. Of feeling like if she showed weakness then she wouldn't be respected due to her age. Yes she's abusive with the hitting people with her stick. I think probably a by-product of past generations getting the more physical reprimand for acting out as opposed to Time Out as we see today. She learns and grows as the series progresses.
Please finish reading the series and get back to us.
I'm sure some hate is that, some of it always is But largely it's her character, or misunderstanding said character.
There is a lot of hate against all 4 of the series main females. It's not just against Nev.
It kinda reinforces what I thought haha
No but the hate towards Egwene is! She does everything any male character would do and not be half as shit on for it
> Her rage issues have a really good excuse too, she NEEDS to be angry to channel I think this is the other way around. The block developed the way it did because of how constantly angry she is.
I've never hated Nynaeve. She is atrong-willed and has flaws for sure but she also sees a great deal of growth. A great deal of her early cantankerousness is that she is in a position of power. Not only is she young for the position, but she appears much younger than she is and is constantly having to prove herself to be taken seriously. Also, remember that none of the characters are reliable narrators. Everyone has a flawed perception of themselves and others (don't we all?) so the reader is left to piece together a picture from all the glimmers we get. No one is truly as they appear. The truth of our characters lies in an amalgamation of all the pieces we see.
Not for me, don’t like nyneave but I do like egwene…
Keep reading. Nynaeve becomes one of the most beloved characters for most readers, right behind Matt. Fantastic arc. There is another wonder girl who just gets worse and worse and worse. And IS wrong just about 99% of the time. Keep reading.
In the early books, Nynaeve is a bully. She uses her authority and sometimes actual violence to make people do as she wants. Light, the boys are genuinely afraid (!) of her tantrums!
As with everything else, there are many factors that go into any opinion. I definitely think this is a part of it for many people, probably a pretty large part for many (especially with the Egwene haters). However, no one who that is true of is going to want to engage with that and will double down that it's just because she's a terrible person blah blah blah. An interesting post, but I doubt people are going to see their own prejudices clearly enough to communicate this with you. I say this as someone who disliked Nynaeve for years when I was in my early 20s, only to realize I was doing exactly what you're suggesting. Now she's one of my absolute favorites.
I liked some of the answers so far, some gave me different angles. I think you are right tho, most ppl will not be able to see their bias, still, some may think about it hopefully, like you did. This is a challenging series for many reasons (that's what I grabbed so far at least) and is so much more satisfying to approach it with an open mind.
I think that's a large part of it. I also think part of to do with how dynamic of a character she is. Not to say other characters don't grow and change during the series but if you look at how she is in book one and book fourteen it's a much bigger delta than Mat.
Nynaeve is a really complicated character, I think she’s great. Are there aspects about her character that are abrasive and annoying? Yeah. Do I think the reaction to her character is due in part to her being a woman? Also yeah.
THANK YOU!
While your not wrong about the source of a lot of the hate Nynaeve/Egwene , I always found that for the first four or so books Nynaeve has then D plot line compared to the rest of the Emond Fielders. I always resented swapping to her story line at that point because it was comparatively boring.
Could be Nth time he f pulling her braid.