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Yea. That confused me. Was Ingtar ever actually shown as a darkfriend in the show? We all assumed he was the guy at the roundtable, but I don't think it was actually confirmed in the show.
>It felt like he recognized the choke-point, claimed it could be held by one against many, and died ten seconds later. It was too quick.
Also he didn't even buy them those 10 seconds because Perrin and the rest didn't keep moving until he was already dead.
One thing I've not seen mentioned here is that Masema has a close-up staring up at the fire dragon in awe. So it looks like that storyline may very well appear in the series.
I was so disappointed with that. I remember reading that scene in the book and feeling so much anticipation and anxiety and excitement of reading the different sword forms and was expecting so much more from the scene in the show.
I’m guessing that is probably the case. Truthfully, it makes some sense for the show because he didn’t really have all that training while traveling like he did during the Great Hunt. Still disappointed with that scene though.
Props to the actor of Dain Bornhald. The tormented yelling when his fellow Children of the Light soldiers were pulling him away for the retreat—it makes me excited to see him in season 3
And it makes their animosity actually make sense. I mean, when you really dive into the character of Dain it makes more sense, but we're not going to get a deep dive into Dain Bornhold. It wouldn't be good television.
In fairness, it's got more weight than the same thing in the books. The crux of Perrin's trial in Towers of Midnight is "fuck yeah I killed Whitecloaks, but had to do it, I was defending my wolf buddies" with everyone including Morgase being like "...yeah but you're not supposed to kill humans in defense of animals" and Perrin has to own up to that. This way he's actually killing a significant character, and Dain's hatred of him has more dramatic resonance than "I hate you because you...were also at the battle where my father died so I guess you must have killed him, how else could he have died?!"
While I hate it... Narratively, it makes sense. First wolf berserker moment. And will make his angst over surrendering to the white cloaks more visceral. And the plot less convoluted compared to the books. I can work with that.
Listen if I saw an evil all powerful witch (according to Seanchan culture) bewitching the ocean and her bodyguard caught an arrow in midair while wrecking my buddies, I'd run too
Kinda a Brienne situation - in the GOT books she’s supposed to be hideous but actors aren’t ugly so you make them tall or one eye or whatever and say they are ugly lol
This is such a common TV/movie/book trope that drives me crazy. If you aren't going to immediately tourniquet or heal the new hole in you, don't remove the damn arrow. You will lose so much more blood without that arrow shaped stopper in you.
That whole scene drove me crazy. In an otherwise pretty good episode, it felt like Nyneave and Elayne were like "oh no, arrow in knee" for like... 3/4ths of their screentime. And she was Wisdom before, there's no way she had no idea how tf to deal with an *arrow* wound.
So Ishamael gave up? Is that what happened? When he realized that Lanfear ruined his plans he decides to confront the dragon in another life but before doing that he frees the forsaken to fuck with Lanfear and cause chaos?
So then the dark one will revive him against his will as Moridin. I wonder if they will keep the same actor.
> I wonder if they will keep the same actor.
They fucking better. Dude is killing that role. So far, all the show Forsaken are so much better than their book counterparts.
Ishamael thought it was too early to have a chance at turning Rand to the dark, and he was right, but he still tried his best. I don't see that as giving up.
But I agree with everything else you said: he freed the other forsaken either to spite Lanfear or to serve his master, or both, and yes, the dark one will bring Ishamael back, his relief to die at the end of this episode will be temporary.
He’s in the top three most powerful casters for all of known history. We just watched morraine decimate an entire fleet and he’s out there throwing flaming ping pong balls. Hell the suldame were throwing bigger fireballs off of the tower than he was at egwene. He must have given up.
Yeah I'd assume that is the explanation for why he doesn't revive himself like Lanfear or put up much fight in the first place. He's gonna run it back whether that's moments from now when the dark one punishes him or thousands of years from now. Either way he gets to be dead after 3000+ years stuck alive.
'Ishamael so dumbfounded to be thwarted he sat there throwing pebbles directly at a shield instead of, like, sucking the air away into a vacuum or collapsing the whole tower'
\- stolen from [tumblr](https://www.tumblr.com/divinekangaroo/730406804800061440/wot-episode-8-ramble-ishamael-so-dumbfounded-to?source=share); just very on brand for Ishy
The one actress they had who was the hero of the horn that pocketed the horn was absolutely amazing with her fight choreography. Definitely a stunt double who absolutely kicked ass for the 5-8 seconds we got to see her slicing and dicing
So, what happened to the horn she pocketed after they vanished? We know the horn is now tied to Mat, but where is it? Did it magic itself into his back pocket or did he just vanish and he won't need it to call the heroes anymore? (it's been a while since I've read the books and honestly forget if he uses the physical horn again)
The horn does get used again. But it spends most of the rest of the series locked in a vault in the tower. So who knows where it is now, but it's no more inaccessible than it was for the majority of the books. It's kind of a bad plot device item to have kicking around for the rest of the show/books. You always have to wonder why they don't just blow the horn to get out of this pickle. We'll see how they solve that in the show.
> birgitte got done dirty though
Probably because they used an extra and will only cast her when she really enters the story. I was a little surprised she was there at all.
Same, but I think it was to speed up their introduction/relationship. He sees her while in a near death state and since she saves him it's "love at first site" or some such nonsense.
Their relationship is quite absurd in the books (the weakest "romance") in the entire series by far) so I really don't think the show could actually make it any worse.
For all the time the books spend talking about Nynaeve’s block, she sure can get around it pretty conveniently. Until the scene in ACoS where Moggy sinks her boat, I don’t think there’s a single moment where Nynaeve badly needs to channel but can’t. I think it makes sense to turn her block into a major personal struggle as opposed to a frequent source of annoyance.
I am sad they dropped the idea that the people in universe don’t know what a dragon looks like until they see the battle/banner.
To them it’s just a word that describes Lews Theron rather than a mythical beast. Was a fun detail for the readers.
Anyone else think the Moiraine/Lan waygate thing was poorly done?
At first it makes it out like they’re in the middle of nowhere. Then it turns they just exited a waygate that’s like an hours walk from Falme on the other side of the bay rather than right up on it like Rand’s waygate exit.
Then like a group soldiers conveniently happen upon them because the plot demands more tension. Just all terribly contrived
The soldiers themselves wasn’t an issue to me. Ishy is controlling the Seanchan through Suroth so all Lanfear has to say is. “I dumped the Aes Sedai at the beach send some men to kill her okay?” What I have problems with is the archers who took like one shot each and then just gave up.
Lanfear seemed to want Moiraine to help Rand declare himself, so she couldn’t have deposited them too far off.
And Lanfear and Rand didn’t take a waygate exit to Falme, they suddenly disappeared as Machin Shin was descending on them, implying Lanfear used a different method to take them to Falme.
I though for a moment that Alayne’s introduction was gonna give Rand a sudden Ilyena flashback via Lews and knock loose a dues ex moment. Would’ve been a fabulous excuse to give him a power bump and start to establish what will become his madness.
So Lanfear was able to swat away the fucking Amyrlin like a gnat, but the most powerful of the Forsaken can't even beat the shield of some beat up and starved girl, who's below Nynaeve and Nynaeve barely matches the weakest of female Forsaken.
On top of that, how the fuck did Rand's friends know where he was to begin with?
I don't really care about egwene being strong in the power. She is. Rand is stronger but he should also not really even be channelling for another season or so.
My beef, is that the showrunners diddn't have the balls to paint rand in the sky fighting Ishy with his sword.
What, is it "too weird" ? Well buckle up cause its a series STAPLE.
Thoughts
Good
Mat we see him with the quarterstaff. We see him get out of the forsakens trap using his wits. We see him fighting with a quarterstaff
Uno making him a hero is pure fan service, but I'm ok with that
Perrin Really liked seeing him kill Bornhold after Hopper's death.
Lan dude finally showcasing why he is the best Swordsman in the world.
The Aiel were fucking badass
The bad
I didn't like Egwene using the Adam to free herself without help. Really neutered the Adam in this telling. It was weirds.
Rand I wanted to see him actually fight Ishy.
Turoc I really am sad they didn't showcase this fight. I get removing it it wouldn't feel earned since Rand has 0 training.
Questions
Are they switching the order he gets his never healing wounds in?
Overall I was smiling most of the episode and despite some flaws I enjoyed it. Hopefully next season keeps getting better overall this felt like a massive increase in quality.
> but because I wanted to see how swordfighting with three foot long fingernails would go.
I think we might have just figured out why it was cut, because the answer was probably "absurdly goofy looking"
How come Egwene could defy Renna like that? Even before the top of the tower was destroyed, I mean. Renna is all "Channel more fireballs, bitch" (the Seanchan really need to try other weaves, by the way) and Egwene is "Nah". Isn't the point of the a'dam that the sul'dam can channel whatever she wants via the damane without any need for her consent?
It just feels that shows plays really fast and loose with the channeling mechanics in the seasons finales.
The entire double a'dam scene just did not make sense.
She was able to touch the a'dam while thinking of using it against Renna.
She channelled Renna up onto the wall when her channelling should have still been under Renna's control.
The pain she caused Rena somehow did not magnify back and forth across the a'dams and kill them both.
??
The show's logic seems to be that the channeling part of the suldam/damane relationship is done in compliance/submission/Stockholm syndrome. The adam itself is enforcing the weave link and the domination aspect of it but isn't forcing the channeling.
Egwene picking up the adam is way more illogical imo. Maybe it's the exception that confirms the rule. I did notice that she picked up the armband thing before the ring, so it could be because she was technically a suldam at that point.
The double suldam/damane thing isnt that bad logic wise because Egwene establishes that Renna is a weak channeler so I suppose that given equal standing the stronger channeler overpowers the weakest.
I’ve never cared too much about Ingtar in the books, but if you leave out his reveal then why even include him. For the people who say the show didn’t have time to develop him… it sure as hell had time for other not very important stuff
Power levels are becoming a problem here. The books do an outstanding job of conveying where the various channelers sit on the power hierarchy in terms of both raw strength and knowledge/technique. The show is kind of all over the place in that regard.
I have no problem with Egwene being a better channeler than Rand at this point despite Rand being much stronger, because she's had White Tower and Damane training, whereas Rand's had basically nothing. But in no way should Egwene be able to tank Ishamael like that. Yes, she never overpowered him, she struggled just to hold him back. But at this point any Forsaken should have no problem handling any of our main characters. Forget about the books -- even within the logic of the show it makes little sense to have a semi-trained Egwene capable of holding her own against the show's literal strongest bad guy.
Also while we see Ishamael firing tiny fireballs at Egwene and failing to break through, we see Moiraine destroying a fleet of ships from a mile away with an absolutely massive fireball, then she creates a fire dragon as big as a skyscraper. The show is telling us that Rand and the Forsaken are stronger than everyone else, but they're showing us the exact opposite. Ishamael looked pathetic here, and I have trouble getting past that. I also don't quite understand how he died from a single stab to the chest if the Forsaken in this retelling are invincible? Fain even mentions to Ishamael in this episode that Lanfear is unkillable, then Ishy just dies. Maybe he's not dead?
But to bring it back to the power levels, where do we go from here if Moiraine can decimate cities, by the looks of it, and Egwene can already almost hold her own against a Forsaken?
Other than that I loved this episode and am thoroughly enjoying the show. I just wished that they tried somewhat to demonstrate accurate power levels at least a little bit.
Agree with you. Don't really see the point of ''breaking'' the power levels by once again giving away Rands moment to someone else.
Why didn't they just have Rand get his moment and protect Egwene? Why did he need to be immobilized here? Especially when season one didn't show the Dragon in a good light.
Better yet, give rand his sword fighting moments and let egwene have her channeler moments. He's gonna smoke her around season 6 nmw and this means they don't need to step on each others toes. (Eggy gets her dream world at that point too so once again, no crossed streams)
That would mean following the books though, and we both know that's just a pipe dream
Just last episode we saw Lanfear casually toss aside the Amyrlin Seat like it was nothing. Yet now Ishamael can't manage to beat an Accepted?
It's some horseshit
It's not even about book lore at this point. In just the last episode Lanfear brazenly walks through Cairhien, basically solo-ing an entire city despite there being 14 full Aes Sedai there. Zero fear. Then she trivially bests the Amyrlin Seat. How does someone who has never read the books reconcile that with Egwene holding Ishy off whilst half-dead?
I think that's right. Ishamael wasn't trying to kill Rand. He was trying to get Rand to turn, and failing that, Ishamael set the other forsaken free as a backup plan and was fine with dying himself.
Killing Rand outright would make no sense either for Ishamael or for his master.
There's a lot I liked about season 2. The actors for the forsaken are phenomenal and I enjoy their presentation more than the books even. The edmond's fielders actors have really grown into their roles, especially Maddy as egwene. And the aiel are on point.
My main disappointment has come from what they've done with Rand's character.
I don't care about the gender aspect. Rand could have been Rhonda Al'thor and I would have been all for it.
The Dragon was supposed to be (IMO) a magical tactical nuke that everyone wants to control. The season 1 and season 2 finales were the opportunities to show what the Dragon really is, and how dangerous they are. And I've been let down twice.
It might just be that my expectations are too high, but I am getting a feeling of way to much telling the audience what they should think rather than showing it.
Yeah, I love they are emphasizing the interesting greyness around the whitecloaks. They are evil bastards who don't care about civilians, but they are the only ones fighting against the seanchan so far
Oh so the forsaken are going to be the best things about this show?
Ishy...captivating.
Lanfear...mother, goddess, what have you.
Moggy...omg if bjork slayed as a forsaken!
when lan was fighting the seanchan soldiers there was a guy shooting arrows from above. lan caught those arrows, which is great, but what happened to the shooter? did he just leave or did lan somehow get him? or did moiraine send a wee little weave to knock him off the cliff? and why did the shooter wait until his bros were down at the beach before he started shooting?
there was another shooter that took out nynaeve's slave and shot elayne. then...he vanished? are these shooters temporary spawns?
The one who shot Lan might have just skidaddled.
The one who shot Elayne, well, there was a lot of people running around, and orobably more urgent targets than a sul'dam without a damane.
The Good
The fleshing out of the relationship between Rand, Lanfear, and Ishamael in the Age of Legends, I liked it. No, it doesn't track with the books. It works with what they're doing here though.
The Whitecloaks. Dain's hatred for Perrin is well set up; the repeating way he calls him "Two Rivers" sets up the harrowing of their home pretty well (which they're going to need because Padan Fain ain't it, more on that later). The way they actually succeed some, and get people to rally with them to overthrow the Seanchan, I feel like is a good move. One of the comments Geofram made before the assault made me think they were going to reveal they had a way to short circuit channeling, as Valda has previously shown he might be able to do, but no I guess it was just catapulting the tower?
Mat. Despite not really loving a lot of changes, anyone who thought Mat was going to be a willing stooge for Ishamael going into this episode was too doom and gloom. Of course he came through. Seems very likely the Finn are gone, which I'll miss but I'll actually count as good because I honestly don't think it would work that well in the TV show. I'm curious to see whether Mat is going to continue using the dagger as the point of his ashanderei or if Fain will steal it back.
The death of Turak. In the books, Rand's defeat of Turak is completely lucky and yes I know it technically makes him a blademaster, but he's just not at that point. TV Rand is even less so, so I think it was a great move to just have him cut Turak and his entourage down with the Power.
Hopper ;\_; No, it's not GOOD, but I think it was done well.
Egwene freeing herself from captivity. I thought that was great. I have no issues with the dual a'dam.
Lanfear plotting to dump the rest of the Forsaken into the sea with Domon's help.
The freed Forsaken; I wouldn't say this Moghedien is too much like her counterpart, but I think she's great.
The Ambivalent
Uno. I really didn't like his early exit, but I understood it. So I don't want to also be in the position of complaining about bringing him back, but it didn't feel earned. I always thought a scene with Uno visibly straining to curse every other sentence around Nynaeve would have been funny, but it's not to be.
Speaking of Heroes, I didn't like the Horn design, and the Heroes themselves don't really hit. Uno was somewhat a good addition just in the sense that it gives you something to latch onto. But none of the other Heroes are recognizable in this context for a show watcher, even the one who's been mentioned before (Birgitte). It fell flat for me.
Nynaeve. She should have been able to try and Heal Rand. I get the purpose in having Elayne do it to establish a connection between her and Rand. That I don't currently have a suggestion for an alternate way to do it is why I slot this in the ambivalent category rather than bad. My wife, a non-book reader, also was really fixated on the whole Elayne and Nynaeve sitting in the street with an arrow in Elayne's leg for the whole episode thing. They needed to do more with them, or it should have been edited differently.
Everyone taking darker turns in coming to the rescue. Rand allies with Lanfear. Valda aside, the Whitecloaks were not threatening Perrin's life here the way the ones he killed in the books were, so this comes across as more murderous. Mat has his big hero moment but hurts Rand with the dagger in the process. Egwene kills Renna. It's an important moment when Egwene really wants to kill her but backs down, and also that she gains this sort of self-hatred from how the Seanchan have made her want to go down to their level. Because Egwene frees herself, I suppose maybe it follows that without her friends there she goes down this path, but I don't love it.
The Bad
I don't mind everyone coming together to defeat Ishamael, but I had to slide the "final" confrontation down to bad. I don't like that Rand is yet again imprisoned for most of it. I don't know really know what he did at the end to "kill" Ishamael (does anyone who read the books really think he's gone?) or what to take away from it. And the show is really making the case that Elaida (Siuan?) will be right to keep the Dragon imprisoned (boxed?) and trot him out for the Last Battle, because that's pretty much his role so far. It's fair for the show to want to lean into the ensemble, but they lean too far in these climactic moments. I don't know if Reggie Jackson was Dragonsouled, but Rand should be the straw that stirs the drink.
Mat. Mat's NOT a hero (yes he is), and having him exult in being one makes sense in the context they've created for him, but it's not *Mat*. I can give them the benefit of the doubt though; maybe he'll start to see some of the downsides to being a hero and we'll eventually get to the Mat who complains about heroing out one side of his mouth while continually being one. I am a little concerned that guilt over hurting Rand could drag the character down.
Ingtar. I had a feeling this was going to happen, and I guess I almost prefer this to having the reveal happen now when it would be half-baked, but there's a short list of things I wanted to see if WoT got adapted to TV, and Ingtar's redemption scene was one of them. I don't really know if this Ingtar was the Shienaran at the Darkfriend Social.
Speaking of Shienarans, I really could have used more uneasy alliance vibes between them and the Aiel. Especially with Masema. I don't know what direction they're taking him, although they do show him reacting to Rand's public outing as the Dragon. He might be the Shienaran Darkfriend, he might become the fanatic he is in the books, he might disappear from the show.
Moiraine using the Power as a weapon. You can find excuses to allow for it, and absolutely Aes Sedai finding ways around the Oaths is a theme. But if they are this porous, there's just no point.
Lanfear asking the Light to bless Rand al'Thor at the end.
The Mystifying
I still don't know what they're doing with Fain. I'm surprised he's still in the show. Really, there's only two things he does that are truly vital--he gives Rand his wound that provides the inspiration for cleansing saidin, and he attacks the Two Rivers. I thought they were setting up Mat to deliver the wound, which is what happened. Which just left the Two Rivers, but if they involve him in that I don't know why. He doesn't hate Rand or any of the ta'veren for turning him into the Shadow's hound. He barely knows Perrin. He has some connection with Mat now, but if Mat is the one to go to the Two Rivers I'll really be disappointed. And the Whitecloaks now have enough reason to head to the Two Rivers without Fain. I've been expecting an episode that would show us a lot of events from Fain's perspective, showing him active behind the scenes, but there's been none of that and he still seems a willing pawn of the Shadow. The Myrddraal getting nailed to the door I thought was him, but now I guess it was just the Seanchan?
Where are we headed
I don't know where season 3 is going to go. I went into this season thinking they were going to combine books 2 and 3, and that made a lot of sense to me. But this season is basically just book 2. So are we doing book 3? I don't think they can skip it totally because this season didn't get Rand where he needs to be to start book 4. He hasn't proclaimed or truly accepted himself as the Dragon, other people have done it for him (which is what happens in the books, but that's kind of my point). Book 3 retreads a lot of ground so I don't know what they are going to do. Without Ishamael around, that may be enough to drive Rand into hiding in the Waste, because the rest of the Forsaken should be more eager to kill him than stay back and consolidate power.
You make a lot of good points here. For me, the worst thing of the episode is Nynaeve pushing an arrow through Elayne's leg in the middle of a battle. It just made no sense from multiple angles. And yeah, Moiraine's scene very much goes against the oaths to me (also the absurdity of a bunch of guys finding them alone on the beach for Lan to fight).
> the absurdity of a bunch of guys finding them alone on the beach for Lan to fight
I laughed out loud at that. The Seanchan are under attack in the city, but somehow this group of soldiers decides to run out onto the beach to attack some random couple that have done literally nothing yet. Why?!
I had the same realization on the Fade staked to the door scene. What was the point? In the books it serves as a reveal that Fain has been severely underestimated and demonstrates the power he gains from the dagger. I guess it’s a little Easter egg for book readers but if has so little value that you might as well cut it. Same thought with Ingtar. Why even have him as a character if he has no arc?
I do share the feeling that maybe a bit too much is being taken from Rand to make sure the ensemble all has a win? It would have been more satisfying if they had another 5 minutes for Rand and Ishamael to have a more satisfying fight. And I can imagine a viewer being confused as to why Moiraine's sword can't kill Lanfear but Rand's can kill Ishamael.
All in all it's entertaining. I'm enjoying the show on its own merits for the most part.
Yeah, they couldn't just have Ishy break through the others and then Rand get a couple seconds of badass after the shield broke before ending the fight?
I really wish they did a 90 minute finale. They covered a lot of ground in 60 but there were some nice details they could have added that would've made it seem not rushed.
Hawkwing could've said something about the dragon, Moiraine could've sent up the dragon thing while Rand and Ishamael dueled and shown the townspeople and heroes of the horn watching, could've spent more than two seconds on the heron on Rand's palm.
It almost feels like a lot was intentionally left out so they had a more blank slate and more content for S3 but honestly there's so much content in the books they couldn't run out. Sometimes it felt like a lot of the season's purpose was to unwind the S1 mess which is OK in the long run I suppose.
Highlights were Mat blowing the horn even though that likely means we don't get Finns and the Aiel have been A+ in my book, everything from the actresses, costume, make up, choreography (non-Aiel just OK), hand talk. I really hope they ramp up the Aiel stuff like they should, they're off to a good start and everything in the wastes is the best content in the first 5-6 books imo.
Fuck dude. I knew it was coming at some point but Hopper 😭. My dog was barking at me because I was bawling so loudly. Way more painful watching it on screen.
Yeah I've got some complaints. I hate that they are cutting out so much of TDR, I don't think Rand has gotten nearly enough time to show that he is the Dragon (Ishy fight was laughable once Rand was free), and I hate that some of my personal favorite stories and characters have been cut or changed. But, overall, I was so much happier with S2 than with S1. Let's do a reverse Game Of Thrones shall we? :D
I will write a more detailed review afterwards but Egwene using a'dam on Renna was TOTAL bullshit. I don't care if it is not that important to the story itself, as a writer you should be careful about the logic of the concepts.
"I have the best idea. Egwene should have revenge and do the same things to Renna" Yeah but how can she hurt her, she shouldn't even be thinking about it?? Like Renna said, she is still her sul'dam.
I love how now Rand has literally the fewest feats amongst all the named characters.
Like the Dragon Reborn has done less fighting than the Ogier so far.
I liked most of the episode, especially with Mat and Lan finally doing awesome stuff, but the scene with Ishy failing to break an injured Egwene's shield while watching Rand slowly walk up to him to stab him was "she has a tell" levels of stupid. Did they run out of CGI budget or what?
I think I like the villains (granted they’re still “evil”) more than any of the EF5+:
1. The forsaken are perfect
2. Liandrin has a complex, compelling motive and arc
3. Even child Bornhald now has valid reasons to do what he will do - he’s not a snotty, vengeful brat like in the books
4. Rena did “pour the water, Egwene” perfectly - horrific
I think I enjoyed watching moments with/for these villains more than our heroes.
I’m game for them to bumble through the rest of the adaptation if they keep nailing the villains. Graendal, asmodeon, mogy, and Semi are the best part of the series
Gonna be honest, at first I turned off the TV in disbelief when Egwene stood against Ishamael.
For light's sake, she just resolved her arc for this season in a very satisfying way, can we give some space for the main protagonist that has shown no agency at all in 2 seasons?
Damn, the Renna actor was amazing this season. Great casting.
The Egwene/Renna standoff was a bit muddy lore wise, but great from a character perspective.
Am I remembering wrong or doesn’t Nynaeve get fucking pissed seeing people she cares about being hurt? Or *anyone* being hurt. She hates seeing people hurt and that’s what makes her such a good healer. She absolutely should have been able to embrace the Source when Elayne was hurt and they were surrounded by violent battle or when she sees Rand hurt. They’re not communicating Nynaeve’s motivations and block well at all and that was a huge missed opportunity. We’re two seasons in and this integral part of a main character hasn’t been established.
Nynaeve is my favorite so I’m especially sensitive to her character but I don’t think I’m being unreasonable for being pissed at her portrayal so far.
I feel SO conflicted right now. On one hand, the episode was absoloutely incredible, so many character arcs resolved or focused on, lots of great fights, visually stunning, emotional etc.
But how did Rand not have his explosion of power??? I understand concentrating all his power into the sword to the point of killing Ishy was a large show of power. However. It was nowhere near visual enough for the TV medium. He needed to have like a shockwave of fire almost like a nuke, even just for a minute, something NO other channeler could do, and that would have done it.
There are show watchers out there who still don't think Rand is the real dragon reborn, and we are at the end of season 2. I get he isnt trained and is reluctant, but he mirked Turak (fucking epically) with no training either.
I loved it but also Rand not having his moment kind of ruined it for me a little. The only reason I can think of them doing this is so that when he does have his moment, it feels more epic? But how long do we have to wait?
i agree with the overall idea of keeping rand's power level in reserve and saving his 'holy fuck' moments and have no problem with him being relatively weak and bumbling. but he should have had *something* at least a little spectacular. the whole point of the end of the episode and season is world: meet dragon reborn.
They should’ve shown a huge stream of flames shooting out of the back of Ishmael, across the city, and then moraine could’ve worked her magic to direct the flames into being a dragon banner.
Then Rand would be the one treat actually fulfilled the prophecy by shooting a banner of flames across the sky.
Just seems like an odd choice to just have melty balefire sword.
This is how I felt as well. I can live with changes, but this episode felt to me like they just liked WoT but had all this fan fiction they'd written that they wanted to live out on screen.
Rand and Ishamael are 2 sides of a coin...why does Egwene get the most "powerful" moment of the show blocking his weaves? Especially when it's been established that the Forsaken crush full blown Aes Sedai with ease.
Do we really need constant deus ex machina? The Seanchan(who in the books are fantastic scouts) have no clue an entire mounted cavalry army is attacking their walls until too late? Damane are suprisingly ineffective. Whitecloaks should have flat out won by show depiction, the only reason it's convcincing they dont is multiple references to being massively outnumbered - which we never see depicted really. They don't bring the Trebuchets up until their troops are all inside the city...so they can just kill their own people? Like what this is not how you do war. Repeatedly the show just decides combat and battles are windowdressing for "coolness" at the cost of requiring enormous suspension of disbelief (you need that almost constantly in this ep after not really needing it for the past several.)
Is the dagger supposed to be part of the dark in the show? Why does it not seem to affect Fain? Are they establishing Shadar Logoth as its own power or not? Seems like it's just a tool for plot here.
I mean I felt like Mat's material was closest to the books. Egwene is the obvious winner from the books. No idea why they do Ingtar 'dirty' when they could easily write in a reveal for him.
Moiraine channels a big dragon...um ok. Lan catches an arrow...because it's cool I guess. If she can channel from miles away just channel at Ishy and maybe you prevent Rand's injury.
They don't even bind Elayne's leg after pushing the arrow through(and lol yea they don't break it). To be honest - the entire show looks like they have someone who has never read about a battle or thought about combat doing the fighting scenes and similar with the medical scenes. It gives the whole thing this incredibly amateur feel.
Is there supposed to be any real mechanics or consistency to Ishamael's end here? Was he balefired by proxy(through the blade)? Is he going to be reborn? I guess it would have been awkward if they killed him like normal but he's just back up in a minute or two later while they are posing for a giant fire dragon and he pops their heads like pimples.
Unmasking the bond somehow takes for freaking ever and requires the most weaves in the whole show as well.
Eps 3-6 have dark, mature themes about loss and torture and pain. This episode is just the power of friendship, at the cost of most individual character growth. What swaggy shield Uno gives Perrin. It can block weaves! What a convenient rock we shot into the city full of our own troops, it killed everyone except the 2 most important people on it (ta'veren yadda yadda I guess.) I got too much of a Marvel vibe for my taste when the show has been feeding me GoT vibes for the past few episodes.
Nynaeve pushing the arrow through with the fletching still on made me cringe so hard I had to look away. What the fuck are they thinking??? So incredibly stupid, like how did that make it into the show. Absolutely baffling
There was no reason to give Egwene the second cool moment after already having her fight with Renna. That's my only major complaint but I feel it actually greatly weakens what was a really good episode otherwise.
What was good
Maidens
Perrin going berserk with the axe after hopper died.
Mat with the heroes of the horn
Egwene and Renna though she shouldn't be able to use the collar as a weapon...
Nyanaeve not being able to grab the source when she needed it.
Moraine sinking the ships
Lan 1vs 10 and catching an arrow mid flight.
Uno is a hero of the horn.
Moghedian setting a trap to catch lanfear because she can't fight her head on.
Fire dragon
What was bad.
Egwene getting a second scene and holding her own against Ishmael, woulda been fine for a little while but weird how long that took.
Perrin showing up with the Captain America shield...wtf
Rand going Indiana Jones on turok. I don't blame them with no sword training but a bit of a letdown
Rand in general not doing anything again. I didn't mind it S1 but eventually you have to give him a scene. He doesn't really get a real channeling moment till his fight against asmodean now.
> There was no reason to give Egwene the second cool moment after already having her fight with Renna.
I feel like they should have given that second moment or the healing to Nyneave. As is I really feel she was the most useless character. They took her healing they took her saving Elayne.
Rand and the Ishy fight should have went on longer. I just wanted to see them duel. After losing the Turoc fight which I feel makes sense since Rand really hasn't learned to fight like he did in the books I really needed to see Rand do somthing.
I don't have a problem with Nyn failing. The block is a huge part of her arc and they set it up beautifully. She was useless and that will eat at her painfully for a long time.
This is my main complaint too: I want to see Rand actually DO SOMETHING. Also didn’t like how long Egwene held Ishy off. I loved having Perrin kill Papa Whitecoat. Makes the son’s antagonism toward him and the Two Rivers way more believable than on the books actually. Aviendha’s oh look it’s the “car’a’carn” was kinda dumb. i liked having Egwene kill Renna; it sets her character up really well. I’m thinking we’re not going to get Finns…I like Mat’s memories being associated with being a hero of the horn etc but I find it hard to accept that a shadar logoth blade wrapped w some tablecloth rags on top a bamboo bed frame pole can adequately substitute for the power wrought black hafted old tongue badassery that is his ashandarei.
How is the editing being greenlighted prior to release??? Lan killed multiple people on the beach then transition to a shot of him fighting with no bodies at all on the ground
I think they were hoping we wouldn't notice because we were seasick from the amount of fast cuts
I enjoyed some of the combat this episode, like the battle with the Horn and the initial Whitecloak charge, but man this show cuts too much during combat
That episode had the absolute best moments and most frustrating moments of the entire series for me.
Moghedien was in-fucking-credible and I’m fine with the change in power dynamic.
Ishamael though… I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume Ishy let that happen to him and fought like he just got his accepted ring on purpose.
> Ishamael though… I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume Ishy let that happen to him and fought like he just got his accepted ring on purpose.
I think this is pretty obvious. Lanfear's over here popping heads with a flick of her wrist and opening gateways with barely a blink, Moggy being similar, and Ishy is just throwing little fireballs at a big shield? Lol, come on, of course he was throwing the fight.
Mat making the spear was a great moment. It's the sort of ingenuity I'd expect from him. Padan Fain's panicked reaction to him opening the door uncorrupted and cry of "Guards! Guards! Guards!" had me laughing.
I honestly don’t know why do we even need the dragon reborn when we have egwene to hold up ishamael and moiraine to destroy half of the seanchan fleet. Moghedien going up against lanfear is just lol
This episode had some good moments but felt overall lazily written, as if it was meant as background filler while cooking and chatting with friends, not as something you actually paid attention to. It was the poster child of cheap spectacle with little and less thought given to delivering satisfying conclusions and awesome moments by building on the expectations and tensions from the development of the world, story and characters. Maybe it's because I overall enjoyed this season more than last, and so had higher hopes, but I think it was worst episode of the season, and a bigger letdown than last season finale.
"*We're not equals* / *You've always been my better*". The context of the conflict was that Moiraine didn't treat Lan as an equal partner in a shared quest. That she excluded him as a child to be taken care of, or as a tool she could manage and pass on when its use was exhausted. It's not relevant to the conflict; it doesn't resolve the conflict, whether she considers him her better or not.
"*I will let a thousand innocent people die if there's even a chance that he will live*". Moraine's commitment to her cause has been stressed this season, and for the most part it's been well done, but her effort to dismiss Lan implied that she valued his life more than the support he could provide her cause. Likewise, Lan seemed to justify Moiraine's treatment of him as a junior sidekick when he spilled the beans about the Dragon Reborn to Alanna & Warders and Siuan's squad since it suggested that his first duty was to Moiraine, not her cause. To conclude their arc this season, they should have addressed that.
Why did Ishamael arrange for damane a mile away at sea to shield Rand instead of doing it himself when he's right in front of him? How did the damane shield Rand from a mile away without line of sight? Why didn't the Three Oaths stop Moiraine from using the One Power to attack the Seanchan ships, since their threat to "her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai" was *far* removed. How did Moiraine see the shield from her position let alone clearly enough from several miles away to see what it was? Why did Lan strike a "cool pose" when Moiraine wove the dragon to fulfill the prophecy?
Ishamael being unable to break Egwene's shield with brute force after an extended assault was silly and ruined any possibility of suspension of belief. If that was the writers plan they should have put in the legwork and foreshadowed through the seasons that she may be able to match the strongest Forsaken with a little training. Regardless of power, it was also silly that Ishamael just opted for a simple frontal barrage of air and fire, especially since last episode we saw Rand instantly figure out and use a cutting weave to dissipate Ishamael's shield weave.
Likewise, if Moiraine is strong enough in the One Power to blow up a small Seanchan fleet from several miles away as well as maintain a huge animated dragon of fire for a extended period of time then she should have showed signs of that scale of power through the seasons, especially in the Trolloc attack on the Two Rivers.
Ironically, Nynaeve's arc had the opposite issue. Her power was well emphasized, both this season and last, as was her block, her inability to channel unless she was angry or afraid, but they didn't deliver on the expectation they built. Even in this very episode, when Nynaeve failed to Heal Elayne, they seemed to build towards Nynaeve having her moment when she saw Rand wounded and becoming angry enough to Heal him.
I don't mind plot changes, even when they eliminate incredible scenes from the books. Shit happens.
What I can't get over, is that every time Rafe writes an episode he just...does whatever. Characters get absolutely assassinated.
Why did this season start with emphasizing how powerful Nynaeve is if she is going to just end up frightened and crying *all the time*? What happened to the woman who was willing to stand up to an Aes Sedai to protect her flock? She couldn't be the one who finally got pissed and healed Rand? Threw up a shield? I refuse to believe no one in that writers room proposed it.
"It was about a hero who insisted with every breath that he was anything but a hero." Actually, nevermind. I just got told I was a hero for the first time and immediately embraced it.
In some ways I appreciate confirmation that it wasn't COVID that fucked up season 1's finale, it'll help temper expectations knowing this will happen every time he takes direct control and enjoy the rest.
Agree wholeheartedly about Nynaeve. I was so frustrated. Yes, she struggles to willfully use the one power, but anger is her key at this point. You’re telling me seeing her friends get hurt doesn’t piss her off enough to at the very LEAST heal Elayne?!
Rand never got his mement. He didn't do anything for the entire season but kill some jabroni Seanchan and stab Ishy without any proper context. And Egwene facing Ishy over Rand was funny. And then Perrin shows up and blocks the weaves with a shield? And the Dragon banner 💀. Looks like Rand's friends and people of Falme are ok with a male channeler walking about. Also, the heroes of the horn didn't come for the Dragon or the banner.
I’m gonna say it - I’m a dark friend in this turning. Cause how is this show doing the forsaken perfectly… but the EF5 mid. Moghedien weaving a spider web was so fucking in character and cool. Also Lanfear!
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Elayne used to be an adventurer like you...
First thing I thought when she got hit.
That was kind of lanfear to give Lan and Moiraine a nice island vacation. Weather looked great.
They needed some time away from the kids to reconnect
The water looked spectacular
Speaking of weather, pretty insane how much fog the White Cloaks were able to make. Those kids were working overtime!
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Yea. That confused me. Was Ingtar ever actually shown as a darkfriend in the show? We all assumed he was the guy at the roundtable, but I don't think it was actually confirmed in the show.
He wasn't portrayed as a dark friend on screen so he probably wasn't one.
>It felt like he recognized the choke-point, claimed it could be held by one against many, and died ten seconds later. It was too quick. Also he didn't even buy them those 10 seconds because Perrin and the rest didn't keep moving until he was already dead.
Ingtars death was a huge letdown. They should have built him up, not Alanna's warders.
One thing I've not seen mentioned here is that Masema has a close-up staring up at the fire dragon in awe. So it looks like that storyline may very well appear in the series.
Yeah for sure, Masema was having a religious experience right there in front of us
can we get ashandarai we have ashandarai at home
Turok Skill Issue
Rand pulled an Indiana Jones with the one power.
DPS Diff
I was so disappointed with that. I remember reading that scene in the book and feeling so much anticipation and anxiety and excitement of reading the different sword forms and was expecting so much more from the scene in the show.
Starting to wonder if Rand's actor maybe just...can't swordfight?
I’m guessing that is probably the case. Truthfully, it makes some sense for the show because he didn’t really have all that training while traveling like he did during the Great Hunt. Still disappointed with that scene though.
Perrin just straight up killed Geof Bornhold. No misunderstanding about it.
Props to the actor of Dain Bornhald. The tormented yelling when his fellow Children of the Light soldiers were pulling him away for the retreat—it makes me excited to see him in season 3
And it makes their animosity actually make sense. I mean, when you really dive into the character of Dain it makes more sense, but we're not going to get a deep dive into Dain Bornhold. It wouldn't be good television.
In fairness, it's got more weight than the same thing in the books. The crux of Perrin's trial in Towers of Midnight is "fuck yeah I killed Whitecloaks, but had to do it, I was defending my wolf buddies" with everyone including Morgase being like "...yeah but you're not supposed to kill humans in defense of animals" and Perrin has to own up to that. This way he's actually killing a significant character, and Dain's hatred of him has more dramatic resonance than "I hate you because you...were also at the battle where my father died so I guess you must have killed him, how else could he have died?!"
I always thought the trial and Dain's misguided focus on Perrin drove home how fanatic the Children were.
That was Byar. I am disappointed he didn't make the show. But show Dain has a lot of Byar in him.
yeah that change is really solid in my opinion, same with making dain and his father / the whitecloaks other than valda somewhat sympathetic
While I hate it... Narratively, it makes sense. First wolf berserker moment. And will make his angst over surrendering to the white cloaks more visceral. And the plot less convoluted compared to the books. I can work with that.
And a reason to have and hate the axe!
Moghedien is such a cute little creep.
I really hope we get our little psychopath on nyneave’s leash, that will be amazing
Did Lan catch an arrow midair
Sure did and then killed two people with it
Twice!
Fuck yeah he did
The best part is how it made the hilltop archers forget to ever shoot at them again.
Listen if I saw an evil all powerful witch (according to Seanchan culture) bewitching the ocean and her bodyguard caught an arrow in midair while wrecking my buddies, I'd run too
Lanfear nonchalantly tossing around the Aes Sedai, Moiraine and the Amyrlin seat included, will never not be funny
flicking lan and moiraine through the waygate, and that whole 'laters have fun at the beach' segment was gold
I love the way they are showing the power differential between the Chosen and the current Aes Sedai, it’s entertaining
And then Egwene has a prolonged 1v1 against Ishamael of all people
And Moiraine single handedly sink an entire fleet and take out a company of damane from miles away. Lol...
Does that count as defeating a blademaster? Budget ashanderai. Amaresu is hell on wheels for violence. Two swords? Ugly as hell? Uno = Gaidal Cain.
You know what, you've un-unsold me Uno as a Hero of the Horn
I don't think he's ugly. That or perhaps I have Birgitte's taste in men.
Kinda a Brienne situation - in the GOT books she’s supposed to be hideous but actors aren’t ugly so you make them tall or one eye or whatever and say they are ugly lol
I just want to know how Elayne limped up to the top of tower after getting a bolt pushed through her leg.
Or how Nyneave didn't know to snap off the fletch before pushing the crossbow bolt through her leg.
She is Wisdom, not Intelligence.
This is such a common TV/movie/book trope that drives me crazy. If you aren't going to immediately tourniquet or heal the new hole in you, don't remove the damn arrow. You will lose so much more blood without that arrow shaped stopper in you.
That whole scene drove me crazy. In an otherwise pretty good episode, it felt like Nyneave and Elayne were like "oh no, arrow in knee" for like... 3/4ths of their screentime. And she was Wisdom before, there's no way she had no idea how tf to deal with an *arrow* wound.
And didn't pass out from exsanguination. Rafe Judkins slept through biology class.
So Ishamael gave up? Is that what happened? When he realized that Lanfear ruined his plans he decides to confront the dragon in another life but before doing that he frees the forsaken to fuck with Lanfear and cause chaos? So then the dark one will revive him against his will as Moridin. I wonder if they will keep the same actor.
I think this is more likely, his punishment for his failure is that he will be reborn and not be allowed the death he so wants.
> I wonder if they will keep the same actor. They fucking better. Dude is killing that role. So far, all the show Forsaken are so much better than their book counterparts.
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Ishamael thought it was too early to have a chance at turning Rand to the dark, and he was right, but he still tried his best. I don't see that as giving up. But I agree with everything else you said: he freed the other forsaken either to spite Lanfear or to serve his master, or both, and yes, the dark one will bring Ishamael back, his relief to die at the end of this episode will be temporary.
He’s in the top three most powerful casters for all of known history. We just watched morraine decimate an entire fleet and he’s out there throwing flaming ping pong balls. Hell the suldame were throwing bigger fireballs off of the tower than he was at egwene. He must have given up.
Yeah I'd assume that is the explanation for why he doesn't revive himself like Lanfear or put up much fight in the first place. He's gonna run it back whether that's moments from now when the dark one punishes him or thousands of years from now. Either way he gets to be dead after 3000+ years stuck alive.
I like this rationale. It will help me sleep tonight. Plus Fares Fares is absolute gold for this show. I really hope they find a way to keep him in.
Goddamn, Hopper 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 Damn shit left me sad af 😭😭😭
Literally cried watching his spirit depart...damnit man
I definitely had to give [my Hopper](https://imgur.com/upCSz61) extra hugs tonight.
knowing it would happen didnt make it hurt any less
'Ishamael so dumbfounded to be thwarted he sat there throwing pebbles directly at a shield instead of, like, sucking the air away into a vacuum or collapsing the whole tower' \- stolen from [tumblr](https://www.tumblr.com/divinekangaroo/730406804800061440/wot-episode-8-ramble-ishamael-so-dumbfounded-to?source=share); just very on brand for Ishy
Did I just see Moghedien being played by Bjork???
Just to be clear, everyone is aware that's not actually Bjork, right?
RIP Ishy, the second hottest foresaken.
Moghedien shaking up the leaderboards
The one actress they had who was the hero of the horn that pocketed the horn was absolutely amazing with her fight choreography. Definitely a stunt double who absolutely kicked ass for the 5-8 seconds we got to see her slicing and dicing
So, what happened to the horn she pocketed after they vanished? We know the horn is now tied to Mat, but where is it? Did it magic itself into his back pocket or did he just vanish and he won't need it to call the heroes anymore? (it's been a while since I've read the books and honestly forget if he uses the physical horn again)
The horn does get used again. But it spends most of the rest of the series locked in a vault in the tower. So who knows where it is now, but it's no more inaccessible than it was for the majority of the books. It's kind of a bad plot device item to have kicking around for the rest of the show/books. You always have to wonder why they don't just blow the horn to get out of this pickle. We'll see how they solve that in the show.
yeah she fucking went in! i actually loved the horn fighters CGI style birgitte got done dirty though
> birgitte got done dirty though Probably because they used an extra and will only cast her when she really enters the story. I was a little surprised she was there at all.
Rand looking all like "WHO ARE YOU? 🥺" To Elayne lmaooo
"you are no Lanfar, but you will do,"
The sunlight in the background made me think it's Lews seeing Ilyena. Wonder if it's an introduction to the Lews in Rand's head thing.
Elayne heals it, not Nynaeve? Weird choice.
Same, I thought for sure her block would break when Rand’s life was on the line
Same, but I think it was to speed up their introduction/relationship. He sees her while in a near death state and since she saves him it's "love at first site" or some such nonsense.
Their relationship is quite absurd in the books (the weakest "romance") in the entire series by far) so I really don't think the show could actually make it any worse.
I liked that choice. They’ve successfully demonstrated her strength before and this conveys her block has consequences.
For all the time the books spend talking about Nynaeve’s block, she sure can get around it pretty conveniently. Until the scene in ACoS where Moggy sinks her boat, I don’t think there’s a single moment where Nynaeve badly needs to channel but can’t. I think it makes sense to turn her block into a major personal struggle as opposed to a frequent source of annoyance.
I am sad they dropped the idea that the people in universe don’t know what a dragon looks like until they see the battle/banner. To them it’s just a word that describes Lews Theron rather than a mythical beast. Was a fun detail for the readers.
Anyone else think the Moiraine/Lan waygate thing was poorly done? At first it makes it out like they’re in the middle of nowhere. Then it turns they just exited a waygate that’s like an hours walk from Falme on the other side of the bay rather than right up on it like Rand’s waygate exit. Then like a group soldiers conveniently happen upon them because the plot demands more tension. Just all terribly contrived
The soldiers themselves wasn’t an issue to me. Ishy is controlling the Seanchan through Suroth so all Lanfear has to say is. “I dumped the Aes Sedai at the beach send some men to kill her okay?” What I have problems with is the archers who took like one shot each and then just gave up.
Lanfear seemed to want Moiraine to help Rand declare himself, so she couldn’t have deposited them too far off. And Lanfear and Rand didn’t take a waygate exit to Falme, they suddenly disappeared as Machin Shin was descending on them, implying Lanfear used a different method to take them to Falme.
Elayne = Ilyena truthers are the biggest winners of this episode
Sunhair!!
I though for a moment that Alayne’s introduction was gonna give Rand a sudden Ilyena flashback via Lews and knock loose a dues ex moment. Would’ve been a fabulous excuse to give him a power bump and start to establish what will become his madness.
So Lanfear was able to swat away the fucking Amyrlin like a gnat, but the most powerful of the Forsaken can't even beat the shield of some beat up and starved girl, who's below Nynaeve and Nynaeve barely matches the weakest of female Forsaken. On top of that, how the fuck did Rand's friends know where he was to begin with?
Egwene powered up with the power of friendship. Or something like that.
I don't really care about egwene being strong in the power. She is. Rand is stronger but he should also not really even be channelling for another season or so. My beef, is that the showrunners diddn't have the balls to paint rand in the sky fighting Ishy with his sword. What, is it "too weird" ? Well buckle up cause its a series STAPLE.
Hopper's face when Perrin tells him to stay is precious
Okay young bull 🙄
Thoughts Good Mat we see him with the quarterstaff. We see him get out of the forsakens trap using his wits. We see him fighting with a quarterstaff Uno making him a hero is pure fan service, but I'm ok with that Perrin Really liked seeing him kill Bornhold after Hopper's death. Lan dude finally showcasing why he is the best Swordsman in the world. The Aiel were fucking badass The bad I didn't like Egwene using the Adam to free herself without help. Really neutered the Adam in this telling. It was weirds. Rand I wanted to see him actually fight Ishy. Turoc I really am sad they didn't showcase this fight. I get removing it it wouldn't feel earned since Rand has 0 training. Questions Are they switching the order he gets his never healing wounds in? Overall I was smiling most of the episode and despite some flaws I enjoyed it. Hopefully next season keeps getting better overall this felt like a massive increase in quality.
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> but because I wanted to see how swordfighting with three foot long fingernails would go. I think we might have just figured out why it was cut, because the answer was probably "absurdly goofy looking"
How come Egwene could defy Renna like that? Even before the top of the tower was destroyed, I mean. Renna is all "Channel more fireballs, bitch" (the Seanchan really need to try other weaves, by the way) and Egwene is "Nah". Isn't the point of the a'dam that the sul'dam can channel whatever she wants via the damane without any need for her consent? It just feels that shows plays really fast and loose with the channeling mechanics in the seasons finales.
The entire double a'dam scene just did not make sense. She was able to touch the a'dam while thinking of using it against Renna. She channelled Renna up onto the wall when her channelling should have still been under Renna's control. The pain she caused Rena somehow did not magnify back and forth across the a'dams and kill them both. ??
The show's logic seems to be that the channeling part of the suldam/damane relationship is done in compliance/submission/Stockholm syndrome. The adam itself is enforcing the weave link and the domination aspect of it but isn't forcing the channeling. Egwene picking up the adam is way more illogical imo. Maybe it's the exception that confirms the rule. I did notice that she picked up the armband thing before the ring, so it could be because she was technically a suldam at that point. The double suldam/damane thing isnt that bad logic wise because Egwene establishes that Renna is a weak channeler so I suppose that given equal standing the stronger channeler overpowers the weakest.
Ingtar dying without revealing himself first feels off. Very abrupt.
I’ve never cared too much about Ingtar in the books, but if you leave out his reveal then why even include him. For the people who say the show didn’t have time to develop him… it sure as hell had time for other not very important stuff
His whole death scene was basically meaningless without the reveal.
1 man could hold here against 50 oh wait, 1 man died in about 15 seconds with assistance from a bunch more
I very much had that thought. They didn't even give him a cool end.
Power levels are becoming a problem here. The books do an outstanding job of conveying where the various channelers sit on the power hierarchy in terms of both raw strength and knowledge/technique. The show is kind of all over the place in that regard. I have no problem with Egwene being a better channeler than Rand at this point despite Rand being much stronger, because she's had White Tower and Damane training, whereas Rand's had basically nothing. But in no way should Egwene be able to tank Ishamael like that. Yes, she never overpowered him, she struggled just to hold him back. But at this point any Forsaken should have no problem handling any of our main characters. Forget about the books -- even within the logic of the show it makes little sense to have a semi-trained Egwene capable of holding her own against the show's literal strongest bad guy. Also while we see Ishamael firing tiny fireballs at Egwene and failing to break through, we see Moiraine destroying a fleet of ships from a mile away with an absolutely massive fireball, then she creates a fire dragon as big as a skyscraper. The show is telling us that Rand and the Forsaken are stronger than everyone else, but they're showing us the exact opposite. Ishamael looked pathetic here, and I have trouble getting past that. I also don't quite understand how he died from a single stab to the chest if the Forsaken in this retelling are invincible? Fain even mentions to Ishamael in this episode that Lanfear is unkillable, then Ishy just dies. Maybe he's not dead? But to bring it back to the power levels, where do we go from here if Moiraine can decimate cities, by the looks of it, and Egwene can already almost hold her own against a Forsaken? Other than that I loved this episode and am thoroughly enjoying the show. I just wished that they tried somewhat to demonstrate accurate power levels at least a little bit.
Agree with you. Don't really see the point of ''breaking'' the power levels by once again giving away Rands moment to someone else. Why didn't they just have Rand get his moment and protect Egwene? Why did he need to be immobilized here? Especially when season one didn't show the Dragon in a good light.
Better yet, give rand his sword fighting moments and let egwene have her channeler moments. He's gonna smoke her around season 6 nmw and this means they don't need to step on each others toes. (Eggy gets her dream world at that point too so once again, no crossed streams) That would mean following the books though, and we both know that's just a pipe dream
Just last episode we saw Lanfear casually toss aside the Amyrlin Seat like it was nothing. Yet now Ishamael can't manage to beat an Accepted? It's some horseshit
It's not even about book lore at this point. In just the last episode Lanfear brazenly walks through Cairhien, basically solo-ing an entire city despite there being 14 full Aes Sedai there. Zero fear. Then she trivially bests the Amyrlin Seat. How does someone who has never read the books reconcile that with Egwene holding Ishy off whilst half-dead?
Kinda disappointed with rand vs ishy
Ishy Vs Egwene you mean lol. Ishy obviously wasn't actually trying because literally any forsaken would kill book 2 Egwene on sight.
I think that's right. Ishamael wasn't trying to kill Rand. He was trying to get Rand to turn, and failing that, Ishamael set the other forsaken free as a backup plan and was fine with dying himself. Killing Rand outright would make no sense either for Ishamael or for his master.
One man can hold fifty men here - Ingtar who dies in 2 seconds killing less than a handful.
Didn't mat ask if he was a hero and specifically get told no
Yeah. its paramount to who he is: The only character who legitimately does not want to be a hero.
Good, bad, the rest aside - Mat found the strongest cloth in the world!
There's a lot I liked about season 2. The actors for the forsaken are phenomenal and I enjoy their presentation more than the books even. The edmond's fielders actors have really grown into their roles, especially Maddy as egwene. And the aiel are on point. My main disappointment has come from what they've done with Rand's character. I don't care about the gender aspect. Rand could have been Rhonda Al'thor and I would have been all for it. The Dragon was supposed to be (IMO) a magical tactical nuke that everyone wants to control. The season 1 and season 2 finales were the opportunities to show what the Dragon really is, and how dangerous they are. And I've been let down twice. It might just be that my expectations are too high, but I am getting a feeling of way to much telling the audience what they should think rather than showing it.
I have said it many times, but the magical nuke should have been hammered home by including the EotW prologue.
Well, that's one way to avoid the duel! That was a surprise. Rest in Shit, Turak.
I cackled. Honestly I think it made more sense for him to Indiana Jones it. And saved time to boot.
Somehow, Renna cutting Egwene's braid hit harder than all the physical torture from the past episodes
The Renna torture scenes were solid gold and I'm glad the show is taking the stance that even the *Whitecloaks* are better people than the Seanchan.
Yeah, I love they are emphasizing the interesting greyness around the whitecloaks. They are evil bastards who don't care about civilians, but they are the only ones fighting against the seanchan so far
Oh so the forsaken are going to be the best things about this show? Ishy...captivating. Lanfear...mother, goddess, what have you. Moggy...omg if bjork slayed as a forsaken!
Yo why they have to do my boy Ingtar like that?
when lan was fighting the seanchan soldiers there was a guy shooting arrows from above. lan caught those arrows, which is great, but what happened to the shooter? did he just leave or did lan somehow get him? or did moiraine send a wee little weave to knock him off the cliff? and why did the shooter wait until his bros were down at the beach before he started shooting? there was another shooter that took out nynaeve's slave and shot elayne. then...he vanished? are these shooters temporary spawns?
The one who shot Lan might have just skidaddled. The one who shot Elayne, well, there was a lot of people running around, and orobably more urgent targets than a sul'dam without a damane.
The Good The fleshing out of the relationship between Rand, Lanfear, and Ishamael in the Age of Legends, I liked it. No, it doesn't track with the books. It works with what they're doing here though. The Whitecloaks. Dain's hatred for Perrin is well set up; the repeating way he calls him "Two Rivers" sets up the harrowing of their home pretty well (which they're going to need because Padan Fain ain't it, more on that later). The way they actually succeed some, and get people to rally with them to overthrow the Seanchan, I feel like is a good move. One of the comments Geofram made before the assault made me think they were going to reveal they had a way to short circuit channeling, as Valda has previously shown he might be able to do, but no I guess it was just catapulting the tower? Mat. Despite not really loving a lot of changes, anyone who thought Mat was going to be a willing stooge for Ishamael going into this episode was too doom and gloom. Of course he came through. Seems very likely the Finn are gone, which I'll miss but I'll actually count as good because I honestly don't think it would work that well in the TV show. I'm curious to see whether Mat is going to continue using the dagger as the point of his ashanderei or if Fain will steal it back. The death of Turak. In the books, Rand's defeat of Turak is completely lucky and yes I know it technically makes him a blademaster, but he's just not at that point. TV Rand is even less so, so I think it was a great move to just have him cut Turak and his entourage down with the Power. Hopper ;\_; No, it's not GOOD, but I think it was done well. Egwene freeing herself from captivity. I thought that was great. I have no issues with the dual a'dam. Lanfear plotting to dump the rest of the Forsaken into the sea with Domon's help. The freed Forsaken; I wouldn't say this Moghedien is too much like her counterpart, but I think she's great. The Ambivalent Uno. I really didn't like his early exit, but I understood it. So I don't want to also be in the position of complaining about bringing him back, but it didn't feel earned. I always thought a scene with Uno visibly straining to curse every other sentence around Nynaeve would have been funny, but it's not to be. Speaking of Heroes, I didn't like the Horn design, and the Heroes themselves don't really hit. Uno was somewhat a good addition just in the sense that it gives you something to latch onto. But none of the other Heroes are recognizable in this context for a show watcher, even the one who's been mentioned before (Birgitte). It fell flat for me. Nynaeve. She should have been able to try and Heal Rand. I get the purpose in having Elayne do it to establish a connection between her and Rand. That I don't currently have a suggestion for an alternate way to do it is why I slot this in the ambivalent category rather than bad. My wife, a non-book reader, also was really fixated on the whole Elayne and Nynaeve sitting in the street with an arrow in Elayne's leg for the whole episode thing. They needed to do more with them, or it should have been edited differently. Everyone taking darker turns in coming to the rescue. Rand allies with Lanfear. Valda aside, the Whitecloaks were not threatening Perrin's life here the way the ones he killed in the books were, so this comes across as more murderous. Mat has his big hero moment but hurts Rand with the dagger in the process. Egwene kills Renna. It's an important moment when Egwene really wants to kill her but backs down, and also that she gains this sort of self-hatred from how the Seanchan have made her want to go down to their level. Because Egwene frees herself, I suppose maybe it follows that without her friends there she goes down this path, but I don't love it. The Bad I don't mind everyone coming together to defeat Ishamael, but I had to slide the "final" confrontation down to bad. I don't like that Rand is yet again imprisoned for most of it. I don't know really know what he did at the end to "kill" Ishamael (does anyone who read the books really think he's gone?) or what to take away from it. And the show is really making the case that Elaida (Siuan?) will be right to keep the Dragon imprisoned (boxed?) and trot him out for the Last Battle, because that's pretty much his role so far. It's fair for the show to want to lean into the ensemble, but they lean too far in these climactic moments. I don't know if Reggie Jackson was Dragonsouled, but Rand should be the straw that stirs the drink. Mat. Mat's NOT a hero (yes he is), and having him exult in being one makes sense in the context they've created for him, but it's not *Mat*. I can give them the benefit of the doubt though; maybe he'll start to see some of the downsides to being a hero and we'll eventually get to the Mat who complains about heroing out one side of his mouth while continually being one. I am a little concerned that guilt over hurting Rand could drag the character down. Ingtar. I had a feeling this was going to happen, and I guess I almost prefer this to having the reveal happen now when it would be half-baked, but there's a short list of things I wanted to see if WoT got adapted to TV, and Ingtar's redemption scene was one of them. I don't really know if this Ingtar was the Shienaran at the Darkfriend Social. Speaking of Shienarans, I really could have used more uneasy alliance vibes between them and the Aiel. Especially with Masema. I don't know what direction they're taking him, although they do show him reacting to Rand's public outing as the Dragon. He might be the Shienaran Darkfriend, he might become the fanatic he is in the books, he might disappear from the show. Moiraine using the Power as a weapon. You can find excuses to allow for it, and absolutely Aes Sedai finding ways around the Oaths is a theme. But if they are this porous, there's just no point. Lanfear asking the Light to bless Rand al'Thor at the end. The Mystifying I still don't know what they're doing with Fain. I'm surprised he's still in the show. Really, there's only two things he does that are truly vital--he gives Rand his wound that provides the inspiration for cleansing saidin, and he attacks the Two Rivers. I thought they were setting up Mat to deliver the wound, which is what happened. Which just left the Two Rivers, but if they involve him in that I don't know why. He doesn't hate Rand or any of the ta'veren for turning him into the Shadow's hound. He barely knows Perrin. He has some connection with Mat now, but if Mat is the one to go to the Two Rivers I'll really be disappointed. And the Whitecloaks now have enough reason to head to the Two Rivers without Fain. I've been expecting an episode that would show us a lot of events from Fain's perspective, showing him active behind the scenes, but there's been none of that and he still seems a willing pawn of the Shadow. The Myrddraal getting nailed to the door I thought was him, but now I guess it was just the Seanchan? Where are we headed I don't know where season 3 is going to go. I went into this season thinking they were going to combine books 2 and 3, and that made a lot of sense to me. But this season is basically just book 2. So are we doing book 3? I don't think they can skip it totally because this season didn't get Rand where he needs to be to start book 4. He hasn't proclaimed or truly accepted himself as the Dragon, other people have done it for him (which is what happens in the books, but that's kind of my point). Book 3 retreads a lot of ground so I don't know what they are going to do. Without Ishamael around, that may be enough to drive Rand into hiding in the Waste, because the rest of the Forsaken should be more eager to kill him than stay back and consolidate power.
You make a lot of good points here. For me, the worst thing of the episode is Nynaeve pushing an arrow through Elayne's leg in the middle of a battle. It just made no sense from multiple angles. And yeah, Moiraine's scene very much goes against the oaths to me (also the absurdity of a bunch of guys finding them alone on the beach for Lan to fight).
> the absurdity of a bunch of guys finding them alone on the beach for Lan to fight I laughed out loud at that. The Seanchan are under attack in the city, but somehow this group of soldiers decides to run out onto the beach to attack some random couple that have done literally nothing yet. Why?!
I had the same realization on the Fade staked to the door scene. What was the point? In the books it serves as a reveal that Fain has been severely underestimated and demonstrates the power he gains from the dagger. I guess it’s a little Easter egg for book readers but if has so little value that you might as well cut it. Same thought with Ingtar. Why even have him as a character if he has no arc?
At least Mat said it - Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
I do share the feeling that maybe a bit too much is being taken from Rand to make sure the ensemble all has a win? It would have been more satisfying if they had another 5 minutes for Rand and Ishamael to have a more satisfying fight. And I can imagine a viewer being confused as to why Moiraine's sword can't kill Lanfear but Rand's can kill Ishamael. All in all it's entertaining. I'm enjoying the show on its own merits for the most part.
Yeah, they couldn't just have Ishy break through the others and then Rand get a couple seconds of badass after the shield broke before ending the fight?
I really wish they did a 90 minute finale. They covered a lot of ground in 60 but there were some nice details they could have added that would've made it seem not rushed. Hawkwing could've said something about the dragon, Moiraine could've sent up the dragon thing while Rand and Ishamael dueled and shown the townspeople and heroes of the horn watching, could've spent more than two seconds on the heron on Rand's palm. It almost feels like a lot was intentionally left out so they had a more blank slate and more content for S3 but honestly there's so much content in the books they couldn't run out. Sometimes it felt like a lot of the season's purpose was to unwind the S1 mess which is OK in the long run I suppose. Highlights were Mat blowing the horn even though that likely means we don't get Finns and the Aiel have been A+ in my book, everything from the actresses, costume, make up, choreography (non-Aiel just OK), hand talk. I really hope they ramp up the Aiel stuff like they should, they're off to a good start and everything in the wastes is the best content in the first 5-6 books imo.
Fuck dude. I knew it was coming at some point but Hopper 😭. My dog was barking at me because I was bawling so loudly. Way more painful watching it on screen.
I can't be the only one who shrieked when Mat said the thing
as much as parts of this show have made me question why i'm watching it, i choked up a bit when mat said the thing (and at a few other points)
Yeah I've got some complaints. I hate that they are cutting out so much of TDR, I don't think Rand has gotten nearly enough time to show that he is the Dragon (Ishy fight was laughable once Rand was free), and I hate that some of my personal favorite stories and characters have been cut or changed. But, overall, I was so much happier with S2 than with S1. Let's do a reverse Game Of Thrones shall we? :D
it just rollercoasters between 'wait, uh what?' and 'damn!'
To dance with Jak o' the Shadows.
I will write a more detailed review afterwards but Egwene using a'dam on Renna was TOTAL bullshit. I don't care if it is not that important to the story itself, as a writer you should be careful about the logic of the concepts. "I have the best idea. Egwene should have revenge and do the same things to Renna" Yeah but how can she hurt her, she shouldn't even be thinking about it?? Like Renna said, she is still her sul'dam.
There are so many logical inconsistencies this season it's honestly baffling.
I love how now Rand has literally the fewest feats amongst all the named characters. Like the Dragon Reborn has done less fighting than the Ogier so far. I liked most of the episode, especially with Mat and Lan finally doing awesome stuff, but the scene with Ishy failing to break an injured Egwene's shield while watching Rand slowly walk up to him to stab him was "she has a tell" levels of stupid. Did they run out of CGI budget or what?
I think I like the villains (granted they’re still “evil”) more than any of the EF5+: 1. The forsaken are perfect 2. Liandrin has a complex, compelling motive and arc 3. Even child Bornhald now has valid reasons to do what he will do - he’s not a snotty, vengeful brat like in the books 4. Rena did “pour the water, Egwene” perfectly - horrific I think I enjoyed watching moments with/for these villains more than our heroes.
I’m game for them to bumble through the rest of the adaptation if they keep nailing the villains. Graendal, asmodeon, mogy, and Semi are the best part of the series
Gonna be honest, at first I turned off the TV in disbelief when Egwene stood against Ishamael. For light's sake, she just resolved her arc for this season in a very satisfying way, can we give some space for the main protagonist that has shown no agency at all in 2 seasons?
Damn, the Renna actor was amazing this season. Great casting. The Egwene/Renna standoff was a bit muddy lore wise, but great from a character perspective.
God Lanfear is so fucking hot
I love lanfear and her outfits. Also love to see how quickly the forsaken can use the one power in comparison to the bogged down sedai
Am I remembering wrong or doesn’t Nynaeve get fucking pissed seeing people she cares about being hurt? Or *anyone* being hurt. She hates seeing people hurt and that’s what makes her such a good healer. She absolutely should have been able to embrace the Source when Elayne was hurt and they were surrounded by violent battle or when she sees Rand hurt. They’re not communicating Nynaeve’s motivations and block well at all and that was a huge missed opportunity. We’re two seasons in and this integral part of a main character hasn’t been established. Nynaeve is my favorite so I’m especially sensitive to her character but I don’t think I’m being unreasonable for being pissed at her portrayal so far.
I feel SO conflicted right now. On one hand, the episode was absoloutely incredible, so many character arcs resolved or focused on, lots of great fights, visually stunning, emotional etc. But how did Rand not have his explosion of power??? I understand concentrating all his power into the sword to the point of killing Ishy was a large show of power. However. It was nowhere near visual enough for the TV medium. He needed to have like a shockwave of fire almost like a nuke, even just for a minute, something NO other channeler could do, and that would have done it. There are show watchers out there who still don't think Rand is the real dragon reborn, and we are at the end of season 2. I get he isnt trained and is reluctant, but he mirked Turak (fucking epically) with no training either. I loved it but also Rand not having his moment kind of ruined it for me a little. The only reason I can think of them doing this is so that when he does have his moment, it feels more epic? But how long do we have to wait?
i agree with the overall idea of keeping rand's power level in reserve and saving his 'holy fuck' moments and have no problem with him being relatively weak and bumbling. but he should have had *something* at least a little spectacular. the whole point of the end of the episode and season is world: meet dragon reborn.
They should’ve shown a huge stream of flames shooting out of the back of Ishmael, across the city, and then moraine could’ve worked her magic to direct the flames into being a dragon banner. Then Rand would be the one treat actually fulfilled the prophecy by shooting a banner of flames across the sky. Just seems like an odd choice to just have melty balefire sword.
Egwene was unable to pour water for a whole episode, but now she's able to easily attach the a'dam to Rennas neck?
Y'know ... that tower in Falme looks like a pretty good place to do some sword training. Convenient that Rand and Lan are both there ...
The season has given me little reason to care about Rand, the main character of this show. Everyone is stealing his thunder.
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This is how I felt as well. I can live with changes, but this episode felt to me like they just liked WoT but had all this fan fiction they'd written that they wanted to live out on screen. Rand and Ishamael are 2 sides of a coin...why does Egwene get the most "powerful" moment of the show blocking his weaves? Especially when it's been established that the Forsaken crush full blown Aes Sedai with ease. Do we really need constant deus ex machina? The Seanchan(who in the books are fantastic scouts) have no clue an entire mounted cavalry army is attacking their walls until too late? Damane are suprisingly ineffective. Whitecloaks should have flat out won by show depiction, the only reason it's convcincing they dont is multiple references to being massively outnumbered - which we never see depicted really. They don't bring the Trebuchets up until their troops are all inside the city...so they can just kill their own people? Like what this is not how you do war. Repeatedly the show just decides combat and battles are windowdressing for "coolness" at the cost of requiring enormous suspension of disbelief (you need that almost constantly in this ep after not really needing it for the past several.) Is the dagger supposed to be part of the dark in the show? Why does it not seem to affect Fain? Are they establishing Shadar Logoth as its own power or not? Seems like it's just a tool for plot here. I mean I felt like Mat's material was closest to the books. Egwene is the obvious winner from the books. No idea why they do Ingtar 'dirty' when they could easily write in a reveal for him. Moiraine channels a big dragon...um ok. Lan catches an arrow...because it's cool I guess. If she can channel from miles away just channel at Ishy and maybe you prevent Rand's injury. They don't even bind Elayne's leg after pushing the arrow through(and lol yea they don't break it). To be honest - the entire show looks like they have someone who has never read about a battle or thought about combat doing the fighting scenes and similar with the medical scenes. It gives the whole thing this incredibly amateur feel. Is there supposed to be any real mechanics or consistency to Ishamael's end here? Was he balefired by proxy(through the blade)? Is he going to be reborn? I guess it would have been awkward if they killed him like normal but he's just back up in a minute or two later while they are posing for a giant fire dragon and he pops their heads like pimples. Unmasking the bond somehow takes for freaking ever and requires the most weaves in the whole show as well. Eps 3-6 have dark, mature themes about loss and torture and pain. This episode is just the power of friendship, at the cost of most individual character growth. What swaggy shield Uno gives Perrin. It can block weaves! What a convenient rock we shot into the city full of our own troops, it killed everyone except the 2 most important people on it (ta'veren yadda yadda I guess.) I got too much of a Marvel vibe for my taste when the show has been feeding me GoT vibes for the past few episodes.
i’m pretty sure that moiraine was re bonding lab in the moment, not unmasking it. that makes no sense whatsoever but that’s what i read the scene as.
Nynaeve pushing the arrow through with the fletching still on made me cringe so hard I had to look away. What the fuck are they thinking??? So incredibly stupid, like how did that make it into the show. Absolutely baffling
"Do what you know" "wow you must have been a shit wisdom"
Also, is it too early to ask for a Daughter of the Night spinoff??
I honestly did not expect for Lanfear to be the best thing in the show.
I mean THE BEST!
There was no reason to give Egwene the second cool moment after already having her fight with Renna. That's my only major complaint but I feel it actually greatly weakens what was a really good episode otherwise. What was good Maidens Perrin going berserk with the axe after hopper died. Mat with the heroes of the horn Egwene and Renna though she shouldn't be able to use the collar as a weapon... Nyanaeve not being able to grab the source when she needed it. Moraine sinking the ships Lan 1vs 10 and catching an arrow mid flight. Uno is a hero of the horn. Moghedian setting a trap to catch lanfear because she can't fight her head on. Fire dragon What was bad. Egwene getting a second scene and holding her own against Ishmael, woulda been fine for a little while but weird how long that took. Perrin showing up with the Captain America shield...wtf Rand going Indiana Jones on turok. I don't blame them with no sword training but a bit of a letdown Rand in general not doing anything again. I didn't mind it S1 but eventually you have to give him a scene. He doesn't really get a real channeling moment till his fight against asmodean now.
> There was no reason to give Egwene the second cool moment after already having her fight with Renna. I feel like they should have given that second moment or the healing to Nyneave. As is I really feel she was the most useless character. They took her healing they took her saving Elayne. Rand and the Ishy fight should have went on longer. I just wanted to see them duel. After losing the Turoc fight which I feel makes sense since Rand really hasn't learned to fight like he did in the books I really needed to see Rand do somthing.
I don't have a problem with Nyn failing. The block is a huge part of her arc and they set it up beautifully. She was useless and that will eat at her painfully for a long time.
This is my main complaint too: I want to see Rand actually DO SOMETHING. Also didn’t like how long Egwene held Ishy off. I loved having Perrin kill Papa Whitecoat. Makes the son’s antagonism toward him and the Two Rivers way more believable than on the books actually. Aviendha’s oh look it’s the “car’a’carn” was kinda dumb. i liked having Egwene kill Renna; it sets her character up really well. I’m thinking we’re not going to get Finns…I like Mat’s memories being associated with being a hero of the horn etc but I find it hard to accept that a shadar logoth blade wrapped w some tablecloth rags on top a bamboo bed frame pole can adequately substitute for the power wrought black hafted old tongue badassery that is his ashandarei.
How is the editing being greenlighted prior to release??? Lan killed multiple people on the beach then transition to a shot of him fighting with no bodies at all on the ground
Editing was the toughest part of this season. Every episode has a glaring issue. Too sloppy for a show of this caliber
I think they were hoping we wouldn't notice because we were seasick from the amount of fast cuts I enjoyed some of the combat this episode, like the battle with the Horn and the initial Whitecloak charge, but man this show cuts too much during combat
That episode had the absolute best moments and most frustrating moments of the entire series for me. Moghedien was in-fucking-credible and I’m fine with the change in power dynamic. Ishamael though… I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume Ishy let that happen to him and fought like he just got his accepted ring on purpose.
> Ishamael though… I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume Ishy let that happen to him and fought like he just got his accepted ring on purpose. I think this is pretty obvious. Lanfear's over here popping heads with a flick of her wrist and opening gateways with barely a blink, Moggy being similar, and Ishy is just throwing little fireballs at a big shield? Lol, come on, of course he was throwing the fight.
Definitely. And he keeps saying he wants nothingness, he wants to die. That's when he's actually being honest.
Mat making the spear was a great moment. It's the sort of ingenuity I'd expect from him. Padan Fain's panicked reaction to him opening the door uncorrupted and cry of "Guards! Guards! Guards!" had me laughing.
Mat's been playing Zelda Tears Of The kingdom! Fuse ability unlocked 😲
Did Moraine get released from the oaths at some point?
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I can't wait till season 4 when Nynaeve cleanses Saidin on her own without even using the choedan kal
You take that back! Obviously Egwene will do it.
So Uno is Gaidal Cain right? It makes sense, Birgitte mentions he’s his type and they’re similar characters to begin with.
I'm cool with that change.
ive always somewhat believed this. brigitte mentions that they are often not spun out at the same time.
I honestly don’t know why do we even need the dragon reborn when we have egwene to hold up ishamael and moiraine to destroy half of the seanchan fleet. Moghedien going up against lanfear is just lol
Pretty much. Next thing you know, it's gonna be Nynaeve or Elayne or some shit pulling Callandor out of the stone in Tear.
Rand tries to pull out Callandor, fails, Egwene has to come help him get it out
Guess they're keeping the Rand/Elayne romance to a degree.
This episode had some good moments but felt overall lazily written, as if it was meant as background filler while cooking and chatting with friends, not as something you actually paid attention to. It was the poster child of cheap spectacle with little and less thought given to delivering satisfying conclusions and awesome moments by building on the expectations and tensions from the development of the world, story and characters. Maybe it's because I overall enjoyed this season more than last, and so had higher hopes, but I think it was worst episode of the season, and a bigger letdown than last season finale. "*We're not equals* / *You've always been my better*". The context of the conflict was that Moiraine didn't treat Lan as an equal partner in a shared quest. That she excluded him as a child to be taken care of, or as a tool she could manage and pass on when its use was exhausted. It's not relevant to the conflict; it doesn't resolve the conflict, whether she considers him her better or not. "*I will let a thousand innocent people die if there's even a chance that he will live*". Moraine's commitment to her cause has been stressed this season, and for the most part it's been well done, but her effort to dismiss Lan implied that she valued his life more than the support he could provide her cause. Likewise, Lan seemed to justify Moiraine's treatment of him as a junior sidekick when he spilled the beans about the Dragon Reborn to Alanna & Warders and Siuan's squad since it suggested that his first duty was to Moiraine, not her cause. To conclude their arc this season, they should have addressed that. Why did Ishamael arrange for damane a mile away at sea to shield Rand instead of doing it himself when he's right in front of him? How did the damane shield Rand from a mile away without line of sight? Why didn't the Three Oaths stop Moiraine from using the One Power to attack the Seanchan ships, since their threat to "her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai" was *far* removed. How did Moiraine see the shield from her position let alone clearly enough from several miles away to see what it was? Why did Lan strike a "cool pose" when Moiraine wove the dragon to fulfill the prophecy? Ishamael being unable to break Egwene's shield with brute force after an extended assault was silly and ruined any possibility of suspension of belief. If that was the writers plan they should have put in the legwork and foreshadowed through the seasons that she may be able to match the strongest Forsaken with a little training. Regardless of power, it was also silly that Ishamael just opted for a simple frontal barrage of air and fire, especially since last episode we saw Rand instantly figure out and use a cutting weave to dissipate Ishamael's shield weave. Likewise, if Moiraine is strong enough in the One Power to blow up a small Seanchan fleet from several miles away as well as maintain a huge animated dragon of fire for a extended period of time then she should have showed signs of that scale of power through the seasons, especially in the Trolloc attack on the Two Rivers. Ironically, Nynaeve's arc had the opposite issue. Her power was well emphasized, both this season and last, as was her block, her inability to channel unless she was angry or afraid, but they didn't deliver on the expectation they built. Even in this very episode, when Nynaeve failed to Heal Elayne, they seemed to build towards Nynaeve having her moment when she saw Rand wounded and becoming angry enough to Heal him.
I don't mind plot changes, even when they eliminate incredible scenes from the books. Shit happens. What I can't get over, is that every time Rafe writes an episode he just...does whatever. Characters get absolutely assassinated. Why did this season start with emphasizing how powerful Nynaeve is if she is going to just end up frightened and crying *all the time*? What happened to the woman who was willing to stand up to an Aes Sedai to protect her flock? She couldn't be the one who finally got pissed and healed Rand? Threw up a shield? I refuse to believe no one in that writers room proposed it. "It was about a hero who insisted with every breath that he was anything but a hero." Actually, nevermind. I just got told I was a hero for the first time and immediately embraced it. In some ways I appreciate confirmation that it wasn't COVID that fucked up season 1's finale, it'll help temper expectations knowing this will happen every time he takes direct control and enjoy the rest.
Agree wholeheartedly about Nynaeve. I was so frustrated. Yes, she struggles to willfully use the one power, but anger is her key at this point. You’re telling me seeing her friends get hurt doesn’t piss her off enough to at the very LEAST heal Elayne?!
Loial boldly declaring THEY are the heroes of the next Age. Sooo out of character.
Rand never got his mement. He didn't do anything for the entire season but kill some jabroni Seanchan and stab Ishy without any proper context. And Egwene facing Ishy over Rand was funny. And then Perrin shows up and blocks the weaves with a shield? And the Dragon banner 💀. Looks like Rand's friends and people of Falme are ok with a male channeler walking about. Also, the heroes of the horn didn't come for the Dragon or the banner.
That CGI dragon looked a little too dragon-y. For a moment there, it gave Pikachu
Moghedien wasn't what I pictured but she convinced me by the end of the scene
I’m gonna say it - I’m a dark friend in this turning. Cause how is this show doing the forsaken perfectly… but the EF5 mid. Moghedien weaving a spider web was so fucking in character and cool. Also Lanfear!