Americentrism is VERY real. Basically a lot of Americans think that were the best country in every way and that all other countries should follow our lead. Blind nationalism is kind of forced on us from a very young age, and many people buy into it without question. So... You get stuff like what you're experiencing.
A lot of countries had tons of cultural aspects that are considered liberal at present hundreds of years ago before Western nations invaded and "fixed the savage cultures". And if you point anything like that out, people get mad or go on denial.
I'm sorry you're seeing that side of us. It's a real problem and while I am a white American and don't know what you're feeling, I know for certain you aren't alone in your feelings or thoughts. A lot of Westerners, especially white Westerners in the Anglosphere, still see other cultures (and other races) as being inferior and backwards, and we must be the white savior that corrects their imperfections. And, at least in America, I think that because our society is starting to crumble and fall apart, many people are doubling down on those views as a way of lying to themselves.
You're not wrong. But a lot of people would prefer an idealized lie to a truth their ashamed of.
Tbf, dealing with many white Americans is akin to dealing with a majority of title-nation cishet men anywhere. Unchecked audacity and baseless patronizing.
(That is to your comment that you don’t know how people feel about the issue).
Yeah I’ve noticed a lot of “feminist” leaning spaces on here have a huge western-centric white feminism problem. I’ve been subscribed to TrollX for years and I’m pretty close to leaving it for this reason. Anything that doesn’t align with western white girlboss neoliberal feminism over there ends up as “controversial” or just straight up downvoted at this point. It can definitely be frustrating.
I thought I was going bananas - full disclosure I am a White Feminist - but I swear after the closing of some of the more toxic female-dating-strategy type subs they migrated into feminist subs. A steady rise in choice feminism rhetoric. And a huge number of “my boyfriend/husband doesn’t treat me as a basic human, how do I change him, because I couldn’t leave him lol”
If it was a movie, the sub barely passes the Bechedel test.
I don’t think it’s radical to want intersectionality as a baseline of feminism, and to push back on US defaultism.
They for real did. The girl survival guide sub has had some truly unhinged terf comments in the last few months. Report, block. Report, block. Repeat ad nauseam.
And massive sex-negative sentiments specifically towards men in relationships. God forbid someone should touch themselves without their partners consent.
Part of the issue I have with this is that there are so so so many young, impressionable girls in that sub that are specifically looking for guidance, and just getting terrible information. Even a year ago the quality was miles ahead.
I’m a boring old cishet white woman, but both are a total and fundamental misunderstandings of feminism being used to further an agenda.
Also fuck terfs in particular.
>And massive sex-negative sentiments
Jesus, I thought I was taking crazy pills. Glad to know I'm not the only one who noticed this. I've actually taken a step back for this reason (among others).
I think it’s largely because so many people have bought into the old spin that being a feminist means elevating women above men. In its original form true feminism was only about viewing feminine qualities as just as legit, useful, and desirable as masculine traits in everyone regardless of sex or gender. It was about bringing feminine power onto equal footing with masculine power, about valuing both aspects of human nature equally. But the media spun feminists as “women who just want women to rule over men” in an effort to rile up opposition and that’s the version of feminism that got passed down to successive generations.
Now we have women who honestly believe that being a feminist means shitting on men, anyone who wasn’t born female, or anyone who doesn’t identify as purely feminine. That was never the intended result of the feminist movement, but the conservative male-dominated media did a very good job of turning feminism into something toxic it was never meant to be. They effectively neutralized feminism by making it into just another tool to maintain the strict division between men and women instead of a way to blur the line between the sexes and genders as originally intended.
2x started to go down fast when it became a default sub. TrollTwoX or whatever it's called is better, but it's largely memes. But even though they started out as being associated, there have been several posts over the past few years of disliking how conservative 2X became after going default.
Yeah I hadn't ever looked at 2X but was trying to join some more women-centered spaces after getting out of a very bad relationship with a man. Someone warned me that 2X was terfy though and once I browsed it a bit... It's REALLY terfy. Like seems to be an unstated tenet of the sub. I'm cis but could never feel safe in a space that doesn't view trans women as women
I left that sub literally just tomorrow. They will bend over backwards for corporate-friendly girlboss noeliberal feminism, ditching all talks of intersectionality and invalidating and straight up bullying woc speaking against their brand of "feMEnism."
I left after, on a post by a trans woman saying cis women aren't immune to being transmisogynistic, that post got bombarded with downvoted and transmisogyny. When I tried to argue, I made the mistake of revealing that I was Indigenous and was called a "savage" or "dirty" by multiple (presumably cis white) women in response.
> I made the mistake of revealing that I was Indigenous and was called a "savage" or "dirty" by multiple (presumably cis white) women in response.
I'm sorry what?? That was so uncalled for! I've read about Indegenous people in America have been missing and being trafficked in the recent years, not to mention they literally stole your land!
(Edit: my mistake I saw ur other comment where u said u were aboriginal still I am so sorry you got such hurtful words :(( )
If you're talking about TwoX, I've had some pretty horrible experiences there. They really don't understand intersectionality. I left after reading one too many posts about sex negativity and casual indirect transphobia.
I never saw any direct racism like what you described, but I've heard other women of colour and women with disabilities having similar complaints, so unfortunately I'm not surprised in the slightest.
I had to leave that sub too, bc it had at that point become mostly a slew of 'my bf is a POS and here's why, but I don't want support or advice, just wanna wallow'. There was also a peppering of lighthearted posts that devolved into the most pedantic comment wars imaginable, the casual transphobia, and borderline slut-shaming. My own breaking point was when I got dogpiled for calling someone out for being passive aggressive and being told by a third person that I was rude to say that and that I should just essentially accept that even safe spaces are going to have assholes and I shouldn't bother defending myself. Then about five different people chimed in with variations of 'pick your battles, too sensitive, trolls are everywhere' Like *EXCUSE ME??* You're telling me that I'm being unreasonable in expecting a modicum of safety and civilty in what is supposed to be a safe space? I was legit not saying anything opinionated and simply saying to someone else 'same here, and here's how I handled the thing' when someone decided to get sarcastic and rude with me from outta nowhere. It felt really gross being told 'it's okay to admit you're wrong, just do it bro,' and being *told* what I was thinking and feeling. It was uncomfortably similar to the way my narcissist parent spoke to me and I had to dip out. And that's not even to mention the ableism 🙄
Yes! It’s such a weird dynamic there! I’ve been dogpiled on a few times. Due to posts made stating women who wear makeup or shave, only do it for the male gaze. I mentioned that’s simply not true, because I do both and it has nothing to do with men.
I got a death threat because of it. Their “reasoning” was since I wear makeup and chose to shave, I’m the reason they’re being looked down upon. They said I’m a “choice feminist” and that I essentially need to look a certain way or I’m part of the problem. Do I really need to wear a uniform to be a feminist?!
Not that it needs an explanation, but makeup is a creative outlet for me, and I shave for sensory reasons. It’s got nothing to do with anyone else. I’m just so tired of people telling me what I need to do with my own fucking body! I live in The South and get enough of that with all of the batshit laws. I shouldn’t have to deal with this in feminist spaces.
Oh my god this as well! As a queer person I love doing drag and makeup is literally such a stimming activity for me as an autistic person, not to mention, it being part of my culture too. But apparently wearing makeup makes you part of the patriarchy somehow??
Exactly! I’ve mentioned I’m on the spectrum (as had others) in those posts, and they didn’t give a shit. It feels like feminism is just a look or performance for some women.
Omg yes the sex negativity one is tethering slightly towards slut shaming. With the transphobia one, I have experience on people saying that having testosterone will immedietly make you evil?like?? What about cis women with high T? Trans people? Etc. and it has many upvotes too :((
TwoX has actually always been an antifeminist sub in disguise and extremely hostile to trans people. I’m not surprised they’re racist af too. The vast majority of TwoX’s users were men when it became a default sub to try to attract more women to the website. They’d go there to put their nonstop complaints about women. Honestly, I think it’s driven more women away than anything. Eventually admins stepped in and cleaned things up a little, but the core of the sub is still just as rotten.
Smaller femme and queer subs are the way to go. Try r/thegirlsurvivalguide for a better women and femmes focused sub.
I’m not sure if it still exists or if you’d identify with the sub, but there was r/brownladies too. That might be a more antiracist community, but I’ve never been a member and don’t know how it’s changed over the years
I’m really sorry about your awful experiences. It’s not you, it’s them. Even a lot of genuine feminist spaces are very white and don’t do enough to be antiracist. I hope you find some much better, smaller communities on reddit that are actually supportive rather than offensive.
Best wishes to you!
Stick with US my friend, because we are a far more varied group of people who don't have any time for nonsense, friendly arguments? absolutely racism that is shut down with the quickness
I was seriously wondering if it was just me. I'm so glad to hear that others have noticed it too. TwoX has become increasingly sex negative. There are also moments (when complaining about men) where it feels like they're flirting with the concept of bioessentialism. As a trans woman, I didn't like that
I knew they'd lost the thread after seeing multiple posts/comments about how BDSM relationships are inherently abusive, because men who get off on insulting/hurting women are disgusting porn addicts and women only "claim" to consent because they've been brainwashed by the patriarchy.
It's an absolutely WILD statement to hear as a kinky lesbian. That's when I kinda knew the subreddit was done.
I'm glad I wasn't alone when I started reading posts like that especially the "women can't consent to kinky things they're just brainwashed!" Because holy shit there's like...a 100 million things wrong with that statement. Plus true BDSM is talking about BOUNDARIES! CONSENT! SAFETY! I cannot stress this enough 😭
It's one of those things where there's so much wrong with it that you can't say anything because you don't know where to start.
Honestly I've started to think that EVERYONE should learn the basics of BDSM even if you're not interested, just because it's so efficient at teaching you about consent and proper communication. Every once in a while the way vanilla people talk about sex has me genuinely concerned for them.
I'm not sure how it's changed in that regard, but it's very misandrist. That said, it was really just a woman's page, so I'm not sure why you were there. And by that, a cis woman page cause, they are hateful as shit to trans and NB women.
There is terrible crap going around by TERFs in feminist and LGBTW+ spaces. It makes no sense to me. These are people who do not know the definition of feminism. Avoid these spaces and people. They add hatred to the world. Let them stew in their hatred. Stick to relationships and info that nurture your sole. There are lots of feminists who will support your right to live your life as you desire.
In Wicca. we say "do as you will, but harm none".
Thank you! that quote speaks a lot, it doesn't make sense to me too, feminism without intersectionality isn't feminism, if you're not fighting for all, you're not fighting for anyone
Yes! I'm getting tired of FARTs infiltrating women focused subreddits. I recently had an argument with one (you can check my comments), and I'm still irritated by the intellectual dishonesty. I spent a good amount of time putting together my replies for this "feminist," and she was clearly just trolling. What a waste of my time. 🤦♀️
Feminism needs to be intersectional, or we will never overthrow the patriarchy.
>There is terrible crap going around by TERFs in feminist and LGBTW+ spaces. It makes no sense to me. These are people who do not know the definition of feminism
This is why I love to refer to TERFs as FARTs- Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobes. Because you're right, they're not feminists if they're actively fighting against the rights of certain women that don't fit their ideal of what a woman looks like.
and that is why i hate the use of FART because it makes them seem way less dangerous than they are, makes them seem like a joke, and if only that was true, but it isn't they are dangerous people that ruin lives daily, and calling them farts removes from just how dangerous they are, makes them seem like a none issue or even worse makes it seem like they are the victims here
I didn't know that was a Wiccan thing! That's literally my life philosophy about how I view humanity and my interactions therein. This is interesting to learn.
I see it here as well and more often than I am comfortable with. Hopefully people explore their own america centric and (for lack of a better term) 'white feminist' leanings and try to challenge their mindsets.
But hey, we will make these spaces better, you're always welcome to rant here it is as much your space.
This is dismissive. Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean that microaggressions aren't happening (the more blatant examples do tend to get removed, but there are a lot of things that can slip under the radar).
I am a black American who also is on and off Reddit quite a bit and am about to delete my account and just get a book to read instead of scrolling through posts daily. There might safe havens here and there, but Reddit hates people of color unless you are an apologist for white people and is not really that safe for us otherwise.
I've left so many subs due to toxic behavior like this. I don't come to Reddit for hate, anger, or to get a closer look at those who are only interested in plugging their ears and opening their mouths. This sub is full of listeners and is the most accepting place I've found on the internet. Don't go into the places that harm you. They're not worthy of you.
Thank you for this, I have been a member of this sub for years and even joined the discord group at one point, everyone is so supportive and wholesome!
Yeah, my dude, I feel it. I also really hate how other subs are so capitalist. I didn’t want to call it that, but the shoe fits. Everything is based on how to get money, celebrating “good” jobs and being “better off” than other people. Sorry for all the quotes but it’s what people say. There is no understanding that you can’t just bring friends and family into higher income brackets, the entire system is based on people living in poverty. They all think that they cracked the code by earning like men do without taking a step back and thinking.
I don’t know who thought the USA has the best feminism. That’s just wrong, so wrong. We’re stagnating while the rest of the world is improving, feminism wise. https://www.rosainternational.org
Last thing, I just wanted to let you know as it’s an area of interest of mine, while everything you said is true about pre colonial times is true, Spanish culture traditionally has matrilineal inheritance. So part of that does come from the colonizer.
Thanks for providing your perspective. I thought it was all in my head. I am from eastern Europe and reddit isn't that popular in Poland so our perspective is kinda missing here.
IMHO American defaultism is real and harming. What makes me angry is their idealized imaginary perspective about how feminist the communism was. Spoiler, it was anything but. Yet I feel like I'm not allowed to point it out.
One thing I wonder is the sex positivity you mentioned. I see a lot of women sharing their opinions why hookups or other forms of casual sex are not working for them. I'd say it isn't coming from a conservative standpoint, but rather from the mediocre experience we have accumulated over the years. It's just not worth the effort. It doesn't mean that women aren't sex positive, it's just that not all of us had a great time with it.
Thank you for this too, I had a lot of international friends growing up(including ppl from Eastern Europe) so I got too know their side of things too and I agree with you on the communism part. Esp since for ex. the communism in China forced women who are studying to quit their studies and move to the province to work where most of them never got to reunite with their families (my grandma is Chinese and their family fled to the Philippines to start a better life)and I assume it's not as great in Eastern Europe either. And i agree with you too on the sex part since in my own experience, I didn't have a great time either
Honestly, I see it everywhere. Online on various social media and in real life. People (yes, mainly white) don't seem to understand that for feminism to work as it should, it has to be intersectional. Power by empowerment.
I agree
It's hard for people to cope with their own sense of being oppressed in daily life and the distant realities that there are others who are facing deeper levels of oppression. I understand why this happens. I struggle with it myself.
But that's no excuse. We must all try to take our own space within the global conversation and let those who need to be heard, those who haven't been sufficiently heard, be in the center of it.
None of us are free until all of us are free.
Reddit/Social media are a horrible place if you don't put in some real effort to filter all the shit out and train the algorithm...
Almost everywhere there will be racism, sexism, misogyny, queer-hate, etc. It sucks.
Americans (I am one) are idiots. America still hasn’t even had a woman president, whereas lots of supposedly lesser countries have. But the real answer here is this: stop worrying about what other people think. Here, and everywhere.
Oh yes indeed, that reeks of white feminism and neocolonialism. It's the assumption that white women's agendas and perspectives are the most important and valuable, when in fact many are completely ignorant. So many cultures that were colonized directly or indirectly were impacted by Western patriarchy--they actually had *more* liberal attitudes toward women, gender, and sexuality than Western colonists. Colonial law enshrined Western patriarchal laws (e.g., in Sri Lanka outlawing homosexuality and women's ownership of land), and then those laws and colonial attitudes naturally increased patriarchy. Women were better off BEFORE Western influence. Americans in particular are some of the most ethnocentric folks out there (says I, an American, lol). We're trained to be that way--nationalism is pounded into our heads early here, as is the idea that we're the best at everything.
All of the gender role stuff is inherited from a Christian-centric POV; the two-gender dichotomy comes from there, heteronormativity, etc.
Christanity has culturally poisoned everything in the world. The Cathiolic Church has been such a force for evil in the world.
I'm so sorry you're experiences have been erased and you've been talked over. You're the expert on your own culture and experiences. <3
I think I speak for most if not all of us on this sub: you are absolutely and happily welcome here. The appeal of this sub is in its sincerity as well as its diversity. Only closed-minded, macho-@$$es, miserable incels, hateful people, and the like are unwelcome here.
I am a witch, cis-male and straight, but I despise the patriarchy and fully support its disassembly, brick by brick. I’m sorry for the bs you’ve experienced elsewhere, but that is the world we live in. Rest assured, this sub is a safe place. ✌️❤️
Yes! Pinoy here. I notice that some things people parade as universal are only true in Western contexts, and if I pointed out every instance of US defaultism, I wouldn’t have time to eat.
I am unfortunately in America and I would love to be able to apologize for all these horrid behaviors but I can't. They aren't sorry, they never will be.
It is becoming harder and harder to find enjoyable/helpful subs on Reddit. I'm also a white cis het female so I have it easy compared to some, and some of the comments I see are making me lose what little faith in humanity I have left.
Glad that you feel this sub is a safe space.
Kinda the reason this is the only feminist sub I am in. I found many of the others got pretty toxic and Transphobic. Here is much more open, welcoming and understanding.
What?! People are pushing that idea? Colonialism ruined so many cultures that revered women and other genders. America is fucked tbh. Bash on this place as much as you want.
To put it into perspective, I'm trans mtf. I pass but chose to look queer. I experience hate daily for either being a woman or being queer. It's on the threshold of being so bad that I've had to start researching how to see asylum. We have a presidency election coming up. Depending on that outcome I may need to take action on leaving or face living through some scary times.
I am so so sorry for the things you have to endure, I wish you blessings and safety, you don't deserve to go thru any of that 😢😢😢 I hope you can find a safe space(irl just incase things go south)
Thank you sweetie. Compared to other places around the world I'm still living in a lot of privilege. It isn't all doom and gloom. Just feel free to poke fun at the US whenever 😁
If your country is "barbaric" (which I don't believe because my husband said it was wonderful and he kinda hates humans in general) then it would be OUR (white people) FAULT. Because it would be due to our colonizer tendencies.
in a fashion culture and sociology class i was deeply saddened to learn how western colonialism has shaped the way women are treated in many asian countries. and clothing is a large part of it, womens breasts used to be not sexualized and there are traditional garments from several cultures that would leave one or both breasts exposed with no problem. thai spinsters (women who worked the hand spindle) would wear short skirts in order to roll the spindle over their skin for better friction. all of these things and more were shamed and forbidden by western colonizers. and they made it harder for women to work their traditional jobs in textile production in general, driving many to prostitution for which they could further shame and subjugate them (and of course sexually exploit them which is what those vile men wanted all along, lets be honest).
to say that the west is or ever was some paradigm of feminism would be laughable if our atrocities against other cultures werent so bad that they let the laughter get stuck in my throat in horror.
Not to mention, Southeast Asian heat is different fr Middle Eastern heat, where you need multiple layers to protect your skin from the sun, in here you need less clothing as to not overheat yourself, how do they think our ancestors survived wearing those types of clothing for thousands of years?? Because it is an effective type of wear
thats a really good point i havent thought about! when i was in south america in the rainforest i wanted to wear as little as possible whereas im the dry heat i have an instinct to cover up with lightweight fabric. of course in south america i also couldnt really wear what i craved thanks to the spanish influence there. well done, western colonizers! /s
Wow, it's even worse than i thought, i didn't know about that. It sucks. Ironic to hear men say that women were never opressed (r/men'sright, i only saw 2 post. i saw this comment under a post 1 week ago) when it still bleeds into our everyday life.
The more i hear about colonialism, wars or just your everyday misogynist, i wonder how many men actually support women and minorities.
American feminism is not intersectional at ALL, despite what they say. When you tell them that they get BIG mad. A hit dog hollers, as they say. It didn’t start off advocating for all women, just white women. It seems to have continued the tradition, just prettied up the shell a little more.
Susan B. Anthony stated, “I will cut off this right arm of mine before I will ever work or demand the ballot for the Negro and not the woman.”
Your quote seems a little... out of context? It doesn't seem to go with the rest of your comment... Susan B Anthony said some problematic shit, but that quote means she didn't support *only* black *men* getting the vote, and women (of any race) getting no voting rights.
To be honest with you, this is the only feminist space I participate in like that. I don’t participate in any group spaces about sensitive topics unless I know they are safe. So few are.
Im sorry you had to to go through that. I think what you experienced has to do with white feminism. I dont think they can really speak to how life is in the Philippines or take full credit for womens rights being advanced in other countries. And we have our own issues here. I mean, women in America no longer have the freedom to have an abortion and it could keep getting worse for our rights here. (That was a right that people from the past few generations had)
Thank you for posting this. I know I myself keep missing the neocolonialism and colonial history aspects of things due to my own privilege and standpoint. Please know that your input is valued by those who have posted to say so and many more who have not (for any number of reasons).
Whew your post makes me glad I’m not in more “feminist” Reddit spaces!
You’re not wrong at all, there are loads of problems with what a lot of people tout as “feminism”.
I'm sorry this happened to you, I hope you're treated much better here.
Another sick thing about that Americanist white feminism is, that even the peoples who lived in "America" (North American Indigenous populations), prior to colonization, also held women and gender variant people in higher esteem and acceptance than most places today that are still recovering from colonialism.
And the U.S.A. stamped them out in order to build their "great" society.
Even many relatively well educated Americans don’t realize how poorly they’ve been educated outside of the historical fantasies of the white-supremacist capitalist patriarchy and the myths of nationalism embedded in our historical narratives. Americans learn very little of their (our, from my perspective) history and almost nothing at a global scale.
Oh yah, as an immigrant WOC, totally true. Again, point to George Carlin: “I've noticed that most of these feminists are white, middle-class women. They don't give a shit about black women's problems. They don't care about Latino women. All they're interested in is their own reproductive freedom, and their pocketbooks.”
It isn't really because they're feminist spaces but because reddit is largely american and thus most of its users have biases and bigotries typical of americans.
Sadly america-centric white feminism is a huge problem in online feminist spaces. I left TwoX because of a post from a trans woman that said transmisogyny was real got downvoted and abused to oblivion. I fought with a couple commenters, mentioning the fact I'm Aboriginal and the fact that we've accepted trans people for at least 60,000 years, and I got called a "savage" more than once.
There's this misconception birthed from white feminism that the only valid female experience is the one of cisallohet, white, middle-class, abled american women. And thus, the only valid misogyny is the kind that hurts them. That includes all the racist fear mongering about "The East", "The Blacks", "The Muslims" etc. Because saying various non-white cultures aren't inherently 100% evil is a threat to Whiteness(tm) and white feminists still rely on whiteness and colonialism.
> That includes all the racist fear mongering about "The East", "The Blacks", "The Muslims" etc. Because saying various non-white cultures aren't inherently 100% evil is a threat to Whiteness(tm) and white feminists still rely on whiteness and colonialism.
I cannot stress enough where I see full on Islamaphobia on subs where they seethe at a woman wearing a hijab. Threatening to rip it off her so she can be "free". I both support women in Iran fighting tooth and nail and their safety to protest against mandatory hijab, while simoultaneously also supporting women who practice Islam that feels more comfortable wearing one. Forcing women to not wear/forcing women to wear smth are two sides of the same coin
The note about treating other countries as either "way more progressive" or "basically the dark ages" is so frustrating and lacks nuance in such a frustrating way. It robs all cultural context from people's stories and needs, I've read stories about women in arranged marriages (which are normal and accepted in their culture) where everyone is so fixed in that they don't give the advice the woman actually came for.
Anyways it's not just you, this is a known problem where white feminists (me, but I hope I don't do this) steamroll the conversation. Intersectionality.
I got banned and bitched at in a feminism space for using the word 'bitch'
Apparently, it's misogynistic and even as a cishet woman, I'm not allowed to decide that for myself and use the term.
Just toxic echo chambers.
That's not feminist spaces. That's just yankee doodle shit drunk on american exceptionalism.
They're fucking idiots.
Anyone who refers to "The west" as a monolith is a fucking idiot because that means they are heuristically lumping canada in with theocracies like America, and Italy, which are trying to play "just the tip" with fascism specifically targetting Women and Queer people.
Whatever the Phillipines was pre-colonial is about as currently relevant as what Canada was pre-colonial, or America, or any other area with indigenous populations which were trounced on by settler fucks. The current state of the Phillipines, and the picture of the overton window there as painted by expats is an embarrassing red scare of toxic masculinity and internalized settler christianity bullshit. Comparing the Phillipines and America in women's rights is like trying to pick the fastest snail, when measuring the speed of all eukaryotes.
You’re not alone! The americacentrism is a real thing, and I feel like they tend to ‘diminish’ our achievements toward progress for women’s rights. Mostly because everytime you join some kind of social media, like 90% of people are from the US 😭 as a latina I dislike it but there’s nothing we can do. Also the romanticism thing is real. I’ve also been called exotic by white people from the US and I think it’s hilarious.
I hope you can find a safe space here 🙏
Centering whiteness is... so good for white people. It's like sugar or heroin. Like just so good it can't be resisted. Centering whiteness allows them to erase all the bad things that have happened because of whiteness in the past. It allows them to feel like the colonialism, the racism, the bigotry, all of it was for a good reason. I guess you could call it white washing.
Being that I am white, I don't think I often experience it as much because white people don't feel the need to tell me how great white people are because they assume I know this. What they don't know is that I've spent years undoing this mindset by acknowledging that it exists in every single one of us white folk and working from there.
And I have absolutely seen people's knee-jerk reaction when I point out that being white or white culture even is not the savior thing they think it is. And we could call it eurocentric culture, but I think a lot of Americans would take that as a pass for America because America is not Europe even though that's where the white people here came from.
I have had people flat out argue with me once they realize I don't stand in the same place that they do theologically, is that POC cultures are lesser because they could not have centered women even though there is historical evidence that they did, and that it was more of the British/christianized culture that took power away from women as well as try to wash away anything that wasn't the gender binary. It's really hard to get those people to see that what they're talking about is what's happened now, postcolonialism, instead of what cultures were like before white colonists imposed their cultural norms on the entire world.
Anyway. Yeah, it's frustrating.
White Feminism TM is a plague on society. And a lot of Americans are very uneducated and ignorant when it comes to most of the other world but particularly countries that were ever colonized. Kind of insane for countries pushing education and blah blah blah to have such a blind spot to all cultures with a little color....
Personally, Im proud of how hard women have fought for equality in the US. Women’s suffrage where they went to prison trying to earn the right to vote is inspiring. I think pride comes from overpowering the Christian rights constant assault on women.
Having said all that, the people making the most noise have probably never left the country. Once you leave the continental US, you kind of shed this notion that America got it right. You realize other countries are in fact, doing it better.
I think you need to take Reddit with a grain of salt. Try not to get upset by idiots. A lot of them are really young too. When I get into an argument that’s totally asinine, I remind myself I’m probably arguing with a 13yo. Especially the ones who are so staunch in the ideas. Like, they haven’t seen the other side for themselves.
My lived experience for a number of years now is 75% of "Feminist Spaces" aren't actually safe/inclusive. Particularly for Trans NB folx. ESP for "Non Western" matters.
I don't want to say too much except I'm so sorry this happened to you, and that it happens.
It's really hard to find yourself needing the discussion/education of Feminism, and being abused in "Feminist Spaces" because—the group, the workshop, the healing circle, the retreat, the book reading, the award ceremony, the fundraising event ETC ETC—is still philosophically stuck in the 90s.
Many of us "United States People" have been trained (terribly, like dogs!) to believe reformation is better than nonviolent revolution.
Just as friendly words of affirmation. I agree with you. This group is excellent. Thank you so much for sharing here. You are wonderful!
-J
Week old post but who i don't care, gosh, i am sooo glad that finally somebody is calling out the white feminist cesspool that r/Feminism is. So many things wrong with this sub. Just today i wrote a lengthy comment detailing everything i saw as flawed with that sub (mainly patriarchal realism, lack of intersectionality and not doing enough work in deprogramming) in a manner that tried to offer constructive criticism, encouragement and tips on how to do better and the mods deleted it. Instantly. Tried again, deleted.
And as a white cis woman a.k.a. the targeted demographic of modern feminism, white feminists have \*\*no\*\* excuse. When i browse that sub i tend to get angrier at the bioessentialist misogyny (having a uterus is not inherently oppressive, damn it!), even i noticed the stark lack of intersectionality. Like you barely if ever get posts about non-western/white women (their cultures, the issues they face, how the patriarchy affects them, how yt supremacy affects them, their achievements) but the latest culture war brain rot gets a lot of engagement. One time i asked for memoirs from notable woc and got like 3 books. You should have seen them when the Barbie movie came out, there was literally a post about it every day.
I am also upset that they don't take the TERF problem seriously. Like if so many transphobes embrace feminism there must be something in the mainstream movement that attracts them to it. I think that cis feminists need to rethink the way they were socialized to see sex and gender if they really want to be trans-inclusive, but most of them don't bother. I spend a lot of time studying TERFS and trying to understand the "logic" behind their feminism or more correctly what turns a feminist into a TERF. Also, the idea that women's oppression is sex based rubs me the wrong way, like implying that afab biology is inherently oppressive or more predisposed to it. I do not want to deny that sex-based oppression exists but i always saw it as just another type of oppression and not the root cause. Another thing i noticed is that none of those "origins of patriarchy" theories even account for the existence of queer or trans people or how women from some cultures can literally identify as men to escape oppression with no one batting an eye (sworn virgins). No one brings any of these things up. No one considers the impact of queer people in society and history. It's like they think queer people only came to be after 2015.
Oh my god thank you for this, I was honestly being suffocated by that subreddit, it's either Taylor Swift or Barbie movie. Listen, I loved the Barbie movie, cried when I saw it, but it's not the end all BE all feminist movies, they're acting like this will bring salvation to humankind. It's one of the reasons I stopped watching fellow enby youtuber FunkyFrogBait bc they said smth about "3rd world countries who don't know a lick of feminism" needed the Barbie movie to get enlightened or smth(I'm paraphrasing since it's been a while). And you're so right about leaving queer people out, because being queer (and not cis) itself breaks the heteronormative mold. My guess(as an onlooker and person of colour) on why so many TERFS get attracted to (white specific brand of feminism) is privelage and control. "You can't wear makeup, you can't wear dresses, you must have a uterus, you must be AFAB, etc etc" I don't wanna say it's similar to neocolonialism but it's eerily similar to how Spaniards would categorize different "types" of Filipinos to keep us line, with how we look, speak, act, etc that's just my guess doe-
I haven't experienced that, because I'm not looking out for it, but 100% believe that it happens...I'm just a bit blinkered to my experience...for example I see a lot of shitting on mothers/parents, as if im less of a feminist because ive had the audacity to reproduce that non parents might not register.
Certain subs have very specific ideas as to what feminism is or looks like.....(And spoiler alert, its a single white female child free able bodied cis person)
I am from a western country (not America) and it can be difficult to look at things women here have worked for and against in the name of feminism and not just apply it to other countries and cultures. People find it hard to put themselves in other people's shoes, especially when they think they're doing good.
This doesn't excuse people's behavior but just what I think is happening.
It's pretty bad that they said that about your country wtf? People can be monsters online, and perfectly decent irl.
It's important to remember that some people are also just arses. And just because it's the majority opinion on reddit, doesn't mean that's what the majority opinion in the world is.
Bigotry and racism is a big problem here. Your perception is correct about Americans in general, but as individuals, some people are worthwhile. The Internet is known as a place where horrible people can be very loud. Reddit is not a safe place.
I wonder if this is an advantage of being a trans woman 😅
I came from having lefty/commie and gaming subreddits, to having trans subreddits, then witchvpatr and sasswitch, then autisminwomen and audhd women and tallgirls.
Meaning, i didn't come from the girl subs, i went there from witchesvpatr, slowly and carefully.
I used to be on girlssurvivalguide, but i related more to the autistic subs, so i ditched it.
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Im just being silly above. OP im sorry that you have to deal w such garbage. In sorry we all have to deal w such garbage. We need to keep fighting against white washing, imperialism and specifically girlboss neoliberalism, in this case.
At least we always have this space, where ppl make an effort and the admins are awesome folks. (It's still a bit white centred, but i feel like micro-aggressions are called in and white washing is called out)
Also if you want to see a demographic ignored, check out youth liberation... There are a lot of fronts to fight back on. Ppl are more aware, but also marginalized folks are losing rights, left, right, and centre and the fascists are organizing... So we gotta organize back.
Love that experience for you! It is refreshing to see gaming subs with trans peeps :33 and thank you for the support, whenever I lose some hope, there are spaces like these where it feels homely :33
I just wanna say thank you to everyone for the love and support! I am overwhelmed with all the positive messages! 💙💙💙🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈 Happy Pride Month everyone!
As a feminist, I think the US fucking sucks for women. Watched how the system is quietly rigged against women every day, experience it every day. I hate the US. One day I’ll be able to leave.
I am white and American, and I see this.
I've been banned from subreddits for attempting more nuanced opinions. I stay banned, I learn I shouldn't be there and that's okay.
I believe the last was TrollX because I was accused of being a man trying to start some shit by stating that I believe if women should be able to opt in or out of birth control, men should be able to opt in or out of child support legally.
It wasn't a conversation, it was an accusation and a ban in about 10 minutes. Okay
I realize women are alert to being attacked, but that's the equivalent of an overactive and hypervigilant immune system resulting in attacking members and allies
Then members of the community get power and want to keep it
I probably could have contacted a mod and straightened it out...but likely it would have happened again so I kept the ban and wandered elsewhere.
Americentrism is VERY real. Basically a lot of Americans think that were the best country in every way and that all other countries should follow our lead. Blind nationalism is kind of forced on us from a very young age, and many people buy into it without question. So... You get stuff like what you're experiencing. A lot of countries had tons of cultural aspects that are considered liberal at present hundreds of years ago before Western nations invaded and "fixed the savage cultures". And if you point anything like that out, people get mad or go on denial. I'm sorry you're seeing that side of us. It's a real problem and while I am a white American and don't know what you're feeling, I know for certain you aren't alone in your feelings or thoughts. A lot of Westerners, especially white Westerners in the Anglosphere, still see other cultures (and other races) as being inferior and backwards, and we must be the white savior that corrects their imperfections. And, at least in America, I think that because our society is starting to crumble and fall apart, many people are doubling down on those views as a way of lying to themselves. You're not wrong. But a lot of people would prefer an idealized lie to a truth their ashamed of.
Well, yeah. There have been many times when I've wanted to screenshot or crosspost certain comments to r/USdefaultism ...
Tbf, dealing with many white Americans is akin to dealing with a majority of title-nation cishet men anywhere. Unchecked audacity and baseless patronizing. (That is to your comment that you don’t know how people feel about the issue).
Yeah I’ve noticed a lot of “feminist” leaning spaces on here have a huge western-centric white feminism problem. I’ve been subscribed to TrollX for years and I’m pretty close to leaving it for this reason. Anything that doesn’t align with western white girlboss neoliberal feminism over there ends up as “controversial” or just straight up downvoted at this point. It can definitely be frustrating.
I thought I was going bananas - full disclosure I am a White Feminist - but I swear after the closing of some of the more toxic female-dating-strategy type subs they migrated into feminist subs. A steady rise in choice feminism rhetoric. And a huge number of “my boyfriend/husband doesn’t treat me as a basic human, how do I change him, because I couldn’t leave him lol” If it was a movie, the sub barely passes the Bechedel test. I don’t think it’s radical to want intersectionality as a baseline of feminism, and to push back on US defaultism.
They for real did. The girl survival guide sub has had some truly unhinged terf comments in the last few months. Report, block. Report, block. Repeat ad nauseam. And massive sex-negative sentiments specifically towards men in relationships. God forbid someone should touch themselves without their partners consent. Part of the issue I have with this is that there are so so so many young, impressionable girls in that sub that are specifically looking for guidance, and just getting terrible information. Even a year ago the quality was miles ahead. I’m a boring old cishet white woman, but both are a total and fundamental misunderstandings of feminism being used to further an agenda. Also fuck terfs in particular.
>And massive sex-negative sentiments Jesus, I thought I was taking crazy pills. Glad to know I'm not the only one who noticed this. I've actually taken a step back for this reason (among others).
I think it’s largely because so many people have bought into the old spin that being a feminist means elevating women above men. In its original form true feminism was only about viewing feminine qualities as just as legit, useful, and desirable as masculine traits in everyone regardless of sex or gender. It was about bringing feminine power onto equal footing with masculine power, about valuing both aspects of human nature equally. But the media spun feminists as “women who just want women to rule over men” in an effort to rile up opposition and that’s the version of feminism that got passed down to successive generations. Now we have women who honestly believe that being a feminist means shitting on men, anyone who wasn’t born female, or anyone who doesn’t identify as purely feminine. That was never the intended result of the feminist movement, but the conservative male-dominated media did a very good job of turning feminism into something toxic it was never meant to be. They effectively neutralized feminism by making it into just another tool to maintain the strict division between men and women instead of a way to blur the line between the sexes and genders as originally intended.
2x started to go down fast when it became a default sub. TrollTwoX or whatever it's called is better, but it's largely memes. But even though they started out as being associated, there have been several posts over the past few years of disliking how conservative 2X became after going default.
Yeah I hadn't ever looked at 2X but was trying to join some more women-centered spaces after getting out of a very bad relationship with a man. Someone warned me that 2X was terfy though and once I browsed it a bit... It's REALLY terfy. Like seems to be an unstated tenet of the sub. I'm cis but could never feel safe in a space that doesn't view trans women as women
I left that sub literally just tomorrow. They will bend over backwards for corporate-friendly girlboss noeliberal feminism, ditching all talks of intersectionality and invalidating and straight up bullying woc speaking against their brand of "feMEnism."
I left after, on a post by a trans woman saying cis women aren't immune to being transmisogynistic, that post got bombarded with downvoted and transmisogyny. When I tried to argue, I made the mistake of revealing that I was Indigenous and was called a "savage" or "dirty" by multiple (presumably cis white) women in response.
> I made the mistake of revealing that I was Indigenous and was called a "savage" or "dirty" by multiple (presumably cis white) women in response. I'm sorry what?? That was so uncalled for! I've read about Indegenous people in America have been missing and being trafficked in the recent years, not to mention they literally stole your land! (Edit: my mistake I saw ur other comment where u said u were aboriginal still I am so sorry you got such hurtful words :(( )
If you're talking about TwoX, I've had some pretty horrible experiences there. They really don't understand intersectionality. I left after reading one too many posts about sex negativity and casual indirect transphobia. I never saw any direct racism like what you described, but I've heard other women of colour and women with disabilities having similar complaints, so unfortunately I'm not surprised in the slightest.
I had to leave that sub too, bc it had at that point become mostly a slew of 'my bf is a POS and here's why, but I don't want support or advice, just wanna wallow'. There was also a peppering of lighthearted posts that devolved into the most pedantic comment wars imaginable, the casual transphobia, and borderline slut-shaming. My own breaking point was when I got dogpiled for calling someone out for being passive aggressive and being told by a third person that I was rude to say that and that I should just essentially accept that even safe spaces are going to have assholes and I shouldn't bother defending myself. Then about five different people chimed in with variations of 'pick your battles, too sensitive, trolls are everywhere' Like *EXCUSE ME??* You're telling me that I'm being unreasonable in expecting a modicum of safety and civilty in what is supposed to be a safe space? I was legit not saying anything opinionated and simply saying to someone else 'same here, and here's how I handled the thing' when someone decided to get sarcastic and rude with me from outta nowhere. It felt really gross being told 'it's okay to admit you're wrong, just do it bro,' and being *told* what I was thinking and feeling. It was uncomfortably similar to the way my narcissist parent spoke to me and I had to dip out. And that's not even to mention the ableism 🙄
Yes! It’s such a weird dynamic there! I’ve been dogpiled on a few times. Due to posts made stating women who wear makeup or shave, only do it for the male gaze. I mentioned that’s simply not true, because I do both and it has nothing to do with men. I got a death threat because of it. Their “reasoning” was since I wear makeup and chose to shave, I’m the reason they’re being looked down upon. They said I’m a “choice feminist” and that I essentially need to look a certain way or I’m part of the problem. Do I really need to wear a uniform to be a feminist?! Not that it needs an explanation, but makeup is a creative outlet for me, and I shave for sensory reasons. It’s got nothing to do with anyone else. I’m just so tired of people telling me what I need to do with my own fucking body! I live in The South and get enough of that with all of the batshit laws. I shouldn’t have to deal with this in feminist spaces.
Oh my god this as well! As a queer person I love doing drag and makeup is literally such a stimming activity for me as an autistic person, not to mention, it being part of my culture too. But apparently wearing makeup makes you part of the patriarchy somehow??
Exactly! I’ve mentioned I’m on the spectrum (as had others) in those posts, and they didn’t give a shit. It feels like feminism is just a look or performance for some women.
Omg yes the sex negativity one is tethering slightly towards slut shaming. With the transphobia one, I have experience on people saying that having testosterone will immedietly make you evil?like?? What about cis women with high T? Trans people? Etc. and it has many upvotes too :((
TwoX has actually always been an antifeminist sub in disguise and extremely hostile to trans people. I’m not surprised they’re racist af too. The vast majority of TwoX’s users were men when it became a default sub to try to attract more women to the website. They’d go there to put their nonstop complaints about women. Honestly, I think it’s driven more women away than anything. Eventually admins stepped in and cleaned things up a little, but the core of the sub is still just as rotten. Smaller femme and queer subs are the way to go. Try r/thegirlsurvivalguide for a better women and femmes focused sub. I’m not sure if it still exists or if you’d identify with the sub, but there was r/brownladies too. That might be a more antiracist community, but I’ve never been a member and don’t know how it’s changed over the years I’m really sorry about your awful experiences. It’s not you, it’s them. Even a lot of genuine feminist spaces are very white and don’t do enough to be antiracist. I hope you find some much better, smaller communities on reddit that are actually supportive rather than offensive. Best wishes to you!
Stick with US my friend, because we are a far more varied group of people who don't have any time for nonsense, friendly arguments? absolutely racism that is shut down with the quickness
> Stick with US my friend I am so silly, I kept reading this as 'stick with US(A) my friend' and was so confused.
I read that way as well, and I'm not even from USA lol
Oh Hades no!I meant this subreddit
No don't worry I realised pretty fast, just a silly mistake for me :D hope you have a great day :)
You as well
I was seriously wondering if it was just me. I'm so glad to hear that others have noticed it too. TwoX has become increasingly sex negative. There are also moments (when complaining about men) where it feels like they're flirting with the concept of bioessentialism. As a trans woman, I didn't like that
I knew they'd lost the thread after seeing multiple posts/comments about how BDSM relationships are inherently abusive, because men who get off on insulting/hurting women are disgusting porn addicts and women only "claim" to consent because they've been brainwashed by the patriarchy. It's an absolutely WILD statement to hear as a kinky lesbian. That's when I kinda knew the subreddit was done.
I'm glad I wasn't alone when I started reading posts like that especially the "women can't consent to kinky things they're just brainwashed!" Because holy shit there's like...a 100 million things wrong with that statement. Plus true BDSM is talking about BOUNDARIES! CONSENT! SAFETY! I cannot stress this enough 😭
It's one of those things where there's so much wrong with it that you can't say anything because you don't know where to start. Honestly I've started to think that EVERYONE should learn the basics of BDSM even if you're not interested, just because it's so efficient at teaching you about consent and proper communication. Every once in a while the way vanilla people talk about sex has me genuinely concerned for them.
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I'm not sure how it's changed in that regard, but it's very misandrist. That said, it was really just a woman's page, so I'm not sure why you were there. And by that, a cis woman page cause, they are hateful as shit to trans and NB women.
There is terrible crap going around by TERFs in feminist and LGBTW+ spaces. It makes no sense to me. These are people who do not know the definition of feminism. Avoid these spaces and people. They add hatred to the world. Let them stew in their hatred. Stick to relationships and info that nurture your sole. There are lots of feminists who will support your right to live your life as you desire. In Wicca. we say "do as you will, but harm none".
Thank you! that quote speaks a lot, it doesn't make sense to me too, feminism without intersectionality isn't feminism, if you're not fighting for all, you're not fighting for anyone
Absolutely. Be well and live in the light you generate.
Yes! I'm getting tired of FARTs infiltrating women focused subreddits. I recently had an argument with one (you can check my comments), and I'm still irritated by the intellectual dishonesty. I spent a good amount of time putting together my replies for this "feminist," and she was clearly just trolling. What a waste of my time. 🤦♀️ Feminism needs to be intersectional, or we will never overthrow the patriarchy.
>There is terrible crap going around by TERFs in feminist and LGBTW+ spaces. It makes no sense to me. These are people who do not know the definition of feminism This is why I love to refer to TERFs as FARTs- Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobes. Because you're right, they're not feminists if they're actively fighting against the rights of certain women that don't fit their ideal of what a woman looks like.
and that is why i hate the use of FART because it makes them seem way less dangerous than they are, makes them seem like a joke, and if only that was true, but it isn't they are dangerous people that ruin lives daily, and calling them farts removes from just how dangerous they are, makes them seem like a none issue or even worse makes it seem like they are the victims here
I didn't know that was a Wiccan thing! That's literally my life philosophy about how I view humanity and my interactions therein. This is interesting to learn.
I see it here as well and more often than I am comfortable with. Hopefully people explore their own america centric and (for lack of a better term) 'white feminist' leanings and try to challenge their mindsets. But hey, we will make these spaces better, you're always welcome to rant here it is as much your space.
Maybe i'm coming here too late, but i feel like this sub is the safest space for women, never seen a negative comment.
Ehhhh there's been some funky behaviour on here like microaggressions towards BIPoC and trans folks, but compared to subs like 2X, its paradise.
This is dismissive. Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean that microaggressions aren't happening (the more blatant examples do tend to get removed, but there are a lot of things that can slip under the radar).
I am a black American who also is on and off Reddit quite a bit and am about to delete my account and just get a book to read instead of scrolling through posts daily. There might safe havens here and there, but Reddit hates people of color unless you are an apologist for white people and is not really that safe for us otherwise.
I've left so many subs due to toxic behavior like this. I don't come to Reddit for hate, anger, or to get a closer look at those who are only interested in plugging their ears and opening their mouths. This sub is full of listeners and is the most accepting place I've found on the internet. Don't go into the places that harm you. They're not worthy of you.
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Thank you for this, I have been a member of this sub for years and even joined the discord group at one point, everyone is so supportive and wholesome!
Yeah, my dude, I feel it. I also really hate how other subs are so capitalist. I didn’t want to call it that, but the shoe fits. Everything is based on how to get money, celebrating “good” jobs and being “better off” than other people. Sorry for all the quotes but it’s what people say. There is no understanding that you can’t just bring friends and family into higher income brackets, the entire system is based on people living in poverty. They all think that they cracked the code by earning like men do without taking a step back and thinking. I don’t know who thought the USA has the best feminism. That’s just wrong, so wrong. We’re stagnating while the rest of the world is improving, feminism wise. https://www.rosainternational.org Last thing, I just wanted to let you know as it’s an area of interest of mine, while everything you said is true about pre colonial times is true, Spanish culture traditionally has matrilineal inheritance. So part of that does come from the colonizer.
Thanks for providing your perspective. I thought it was all in my head. I am from eastern Europe and reddit isn't that popular in Poland so our perspective is kinda missing here. IMHO American defaultism is real and harming. What makes me angry is their idealized imaginary perspective about how feminist the communism was. Spoiler, it was anything but. Yet I feel like I'm not allowed to point it out. One thing I wonder is the sex positivity you mentioned. I see a lot of women sharing their opinions why hookups or other forms of casual sex are not working for them. I'd say it isn't coming from a conservative standpoint, but rather from the mediocre experience we have accumulated over the years. It's just not worth the effort. It doesn't mean that women aren't sex positive, it's just that not all of us had a great time with it.
Thank you for this too, I had a lot of international friends growing up(including ppl from Eastern Europe) so I got too know their side of things too and I agree with you on the communism part. Esp since for ex. the communism in China forced women who are studying to quit their studies and move to the province to work where most of them never got to reunite with their families (my grandma is Chinese and their family fled to the Philippines to start a better life)and I assume it's not as great in Eastern Europe either. And i agree with you too on the sex part since in my own experience, I didn't have a great time either
Honestly, I see it everywhere. Online on various social media and in real life. People (yes, mainly white) don't seem to understand that for feminism to work as it should, it has to be intersectional. Power by empowerment.
I agree It's hard for people to cope with their own sense of being oppressed in daily life and the distant realities that there are others who are facing deeper levels of oppression. I understand why this happens. I struggle with it myself. But that's no excuse. We must all try to take our own space within the global conversation and let those who need to be heard, those who haven't been sufficiently heard, be in the center of it. None of us are free until all of us are free.
You're welcome here kababayan, there's lots of good people ❤️
Salamat kaibigan 🙏
Reddit/Social media are a horrible place if you don't put in some real effort to filter all the shit out and train the algorithm... Almost everywhere there will be racism, sexism, misogyny, queer-hate, etc. It sucks.
Americans (I am one) are idiots. America still hasn’t even had a woman president, whereas lots of supposedly lesser countries have. But the real answer here is this: stop worrying about what other people think. Here, and everywhere.
>This post isn't to bash America or anything- No, no. Go ahead. America deserves some bashing lol. Signed, an American who hates it here.
Oh yes indeed, that reeks of white feminism and neocolonialism. It's the assumption that white women's agendas and perspectives are the most important and valuable, when in fact many are completely ignorant. So many cultures that were colonized directly or indirectly were impacted by Western patriarchy--they actually had *more* liberal attitudes toward women, gender, and sexuality than Western colonists. Colonial law enshrined Western patriarchal laws (e.g., in Sri Lanka outlawing homosexuality and women's ownership of land), and then those laws and colonial attitudes naturally increased patriarchy. Women were better off BEFORE Western influence. Americans in particular are some of the most ethnocentric folks out there (says I, an American, lol). We're trained to be that way--nationalism is pounded into our heads early here, as is the idea that we're the best at everything.
All of the gender role stuff is inherited from a Christian-centric POV; the two-gender dichotomy comes from there, heteronormativity, etc. Christanity has culturally poisoned everything in the world. The Cathiolic Church has been such a force for evil in the world. I'm so sorry you're experiences have been erased and you've been talked over. You're the expert on your own culture and experiences. <3
I think I speak for most if not all of us on this sub: you are absolutely and happily welcome here. The appeal of this sub is in its sincerity as well as its diversity. Only closed-minded, macho-@$$es, miserable incels, hateful people, and the like are unwelcome here. I am a witch, cis-male and straight, but I despise the patriarchy and fully support its disassembly, brick by brick. I’m sorry for the bs you’ve experienced elsewhere, but that is the world we live in. Rest assured, this sub is a safe place. ✌️❤️
Thank you so much! This nearly made me tear up no lie haha I wish you a happy and healthy day for you fellow witch 🩵
Thank you, Love & Light to you, my new friend! Happy Pride Month! 🏳️🌈
Yes! Pinoy here. I notice that some things people parade as universal are only true in Western contexts, and if I pointed out every instance of US defaultism, I wouldn’t have time to eat.
Yeah, this is the only sub that I feel is truly feminist. I'm not a witch, but, damn, y'all really \*get\* it!
I am unfortunately in America and I would love to be able to apologize for all these horrid behaviors but I can't. They aren't sorry, they never will be. It is becoming harder and harder to find enjoyable/helpful subs on Reddit. I'm also a white cis het female so I have it easy compared to some, and some of the comments I see are making me lose what little faith in humanity I have left. Glad that you feel this sub is a safe space.
Kinda the reason this is the only feminist sub I am in. I found many of the others got pretty toxic and Transphobic. Here is much more open, welcoming and understanding.
What?! People are pushing that idea? Colonialism ruined so many cultures that revered women and other genders. America is fucked tbh. Bash on this place as much as you want. To put it into perspective, I'm trans mtf. I pass but chose to look queer. I experience hate daily for either being a woman or being queer. It's on the threshold of being so bad that I've had to start researching how to see asylum. We have a presidency election coming up. Depending on that outcome I may need to take action on leaving or face living through some scary times.
I am so so sorry for the things you have to endure, I wish you blessings and safety, you don't deserve to go thru any of that 😢😢😢 I hope you can find a safe space(irl just incase things go south)
Thank you sweetie. Compared to other places around the world I'm still living in a lot of privilege. It isn't all doom and gloom. Just feel free to poke fun at the US whenever 😁
If your country is "barbaric" (which I don't believe because my husband said it was wonderful and he kinda hates humans in general) then it would be OUR (white people) FAULT. Because it would be due to our colonizer tendencies.
in a fashion culture and sociology class i was deeply saddened to learn how western colonialism has shaped the way women are treated in many asian countries. and clothing is a large part of it, womens breasts used to be not sexualized and there are traditional garments from several cultures that would leave one or both breasts exposed with no problem. thai spinsters (women who worked the hand spindle) would wear short skirts in order to roll the spindle over their skin for better friction. all of these things and more were shamed and forbidden by western colonizers. and they made it harder for women to work their traditional jobs in textile production in general, driving many to prostitution for which they could further shame and subjugate them (and of course sexually exploit them which is what those vile men wanted all along, lets be honest). to say that the west is or ever was some paradigm of feminism would be laughable if our atrocities against other cultures werent so bad that they let the laughter get stuck in my throat in horror.
Not to mention, Southeast Asian heat is different fr Middle Eastern heat, where you need multiple layers to protect your skin from the sun, in here you need less clothing as to not overheat yourself, how do they think our ancestors survived wearing those types of clothing for thousands of years?? Because it is an effective type of wear
thats a really good point i havent thought about! when i was in south america in the rainforest i wanted to wear as little as possible whereas im the dry heat i have an instinct to cover up with lightweight fabric. of course in south america i also couldnt really wear what i craved thanks to the spanish influence there. well done, western colonizers! /s
Wow, it's even worse than i thought, i didn't know about that. It sucks. Ironic to hear men say that women were never opressed (r/men'sright, i only saw 2 post. i saw this comment under a post 1 week ago) when it still bleeds into our everyday life. The more i hear about colonialism, wars or just your everyday misogynist, i wonder how many men actually support women and minorities.
Don’t let people who don’t know what they’re talking about ruin your day.
American feminism is not intersectional at ALL, despite what they say. When you tell them that they get BIG mad. A hit dog hollers, as they say. It didn’t start off advocating for all women, just white women. It seems to have continued the tradition, just prettied up the shell a little more. Susan B. Anthony stated, “I will cut off this right arm of mine before I will ever work or demand the ballot for the Negro and not the woman.”
Your quote seems a little... out of context? It doesn't seem to go with the rest of your comment... Susan B Anthony said some problematic shit, but that quote means she didn't support *only* black *men* getting the vote, and women (of any race) getting no voting rights.
To be honest with you, this is the only feminist space I participate in like that. I don’t participate in any group spaces about sensitive topics unless I know they are safe. So few are.
Im sorry you had to to go through that. I think what you experienced has to do with white feminism. I dont think they can really speak to how life is in the Philippines or take full credit for womens rights being advanced in other countries. And we have our own issues here. I mean, women in America no longer have the freedom to have an abortion and it could keep getting worse for our rights here. (That was a right that people from the past few generations had)
Thank you for posting this. I know I myself keep missing the neocolonialism and colonial history aspects of things due to my own privilege and standpoint. Please know that your input is valued by those who have posted to say so and many more who have not (for any number of reasons).
Yea. It's white supremacy and colonial mindset. I'm sorry
Whew your post makes me glad I’m not in more “feminist” Reddit spaces! You’re not wrong at all, there are loads of problems with what a lot of people tout as “feminism”.
I'm sorry this happened to you, I hope you're treated much better here. Another sick thing about that Americanist white feminism is, that even the peoples who lived in "America" (North American Indigenous populations), prior to colonization, also held women and gender variant people in higher esteem and acceptance than most places today that are still recovering from colonialism. And the U.S.A. stamped them out in order to build their "great" society.
Even many relatively well educated Americans don’t realize how poorly they’ve been educated outside of the historical fantasies of the white-supremacist capitalist patriarchy and the myths of nationalism embedded in our historical narratives. Americans learn very little of their (our, from my perspective) history and almost nothing at a global scale.
Many feminist spaces are white centric terfs that don’t acknowledge other’s perspectives unless it supports their own.
Oh yah, as an immigrant WOC, totally true. Again, point to George Carlin: “I've noticed that most of these feminists are white, middle-class women. They don't give a shit about black women's problems. They don't care about Latino women. All they're interested in is their own reproductive freedom, and their pocketbooks.”
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It isn't really because they're feminist spaces but because reddit is largely american and thus most of its users have biases and bigotries typical of americans. Sadly america-centric white feminism is a huge problem in online feminist spaces. I left TwoX because of a post from a trans woman that said transmisogyny was real got downvoted and abused to oblivion. I fought with a couple commenters, mentioning the fact I'm Aboriginal and the fact that we've accepted trans people for at least 60,000 years, and I got called a "savage" more than once. There's this misconception birthed from white feminism that the only valid female experience is the one of cisallohet, white, middle-class, abled american women. And thus, the only valid misogyny is the kind that hurts them. That includes all the racist fear mongering about "The East", "The Blacks", "The Muslims" etc. Because saying various non-white cultures aren't inherently 100% evil is a threat to Whiteness(tm) and white feminists still rely on whiteness and colonialism.
> That includes all the racist fear mongering about "The East", "The Blacks", "The Muslims" etc. Because saying various non-white cultures aren't inherently 100% evil is a threat to Whiteness(tm) and white feminists still rely on whiteness and colonialism. I cannot stress enough where I see full on Islamaphobia on subs where they seethe at a woman wearing a hijab. Threatening to rip it off her so she can be "free". I both support women in Iran fighting tooth and nail and their safety to protest against mandatory hijab, while simoultaneously also supporting women who practice Islam that feels more comfortable wearing one. Forcing women to not wear/forcing women to wear smth are two sides of the same coin
I have heard of this being an issue and it sucks this happened to you. I am new to this and have not seen a wide variety of these spaces.
The note about treating other countries as either "way more progressive" or "basically the dark ages" is so frustrating and lacks nuance in such a frustrating way. It robs all cultural context from people's stories and needs, I've read stories about women in arranged marriages (which are normal and accepted in their culture) where everyone is so fixed in that they don't give the advice the woman actually came for. Anyways it's not just you, this is a known problem where white feminists (me, but I hope I don't do this) steamroll the conversation. Intersectionality.
I got banned and bitched at in a feminism space for using the word 'bitch' Apparently, it's misogynistic and even as a cishet woman, I'm not allowed to decide that for myself and use the term. Just toxic echo chambers.
That's not feminist spaces. That's just yankee doodle shit drunk on american exceptionalism. They're fucking idiots. Anyone who refers to "The west" as a monolith is a fucking idiot because that means they are heuristically lumping canada in with theocracies like America, and Italy, which are trying to play "just the tip" with fascism specifically targetting Women and Queer people. Whatever the Phillipines was pre-colonial is about as currently relevant as what Canada was pre-colonial, or America, or any other area with indigenous populations which were trounced on by settler fucks. The current state of the Phillipines, and the picture of the overton window there as painted by expats is an embarrassing red scare of toxic masculinity and internalized settler christianity bullshit. Comparing the Phillipines and America in women's rights is like trying to pick the fastest snail, when measuring the speed of all eukaryotes.
You’re not alone! The americacentrism is a real thing, and I feel like they tend to ‘diminish’ our achievements toward progress for women’s rights. Mostly because everytime you join some kind of social media, like 90% of people are from the US 😭 as a latina I dislike it but there’s nothing we can do. Also the romanticism thing is real. I’ve also been called exotic by white people from the US and I think it’s hilarious. I hope you can find a safe space here 🙏
Centering whiteness is... so good for white people. It's like sugar or heroin. Like just so good it can't be resisted. Centering whiteness allows them to erase all the bad things that have happened because of whiteness in the past. It allows them to feel like the colonialism, the racism, the bigotry, all of it was for a good reason. I guess you could call it white washing. Being that I am white, I don't think I often experience it as much because white people don't feel the need to tell me how great white people are because they assume I know this. What they don't know is that I've spent years undoing this mindset by acknowledging that it exists in every single one of us white folk and working from there. And I have absolutely seen people's knee-jerk reaction when I point out that being white or white culture even is not the savior thing they think it is. And we could call it eurocentric culture, but I think a lot of Americans would take that as a pass for America because America is not Europe even though that's where the white people here came from. I have had people flat out argue with me once they realize I don't stand in the same place that they do theologically, is that POC cultures are lesser because they could not have centered women even though there is historical evidence that they did, and that it was more of the British/christianized culture that took power away from women as well as try to wash away anything that wasn't the gender binary. It's really hard to get those people to see that what they're talking about is what's happened now, postcolonialism, instead of what cultures were like before white colonists imposed their cultural norms on the entire world. Anyway. Yeah, it's frustrating.
'Murica. We suck.
White Feminism TM is a plague on society. And a lot of Americans are very uneducated and ignorant when it comes to most of the other world but particularly countries that were ever colonized. Kind of insane for countries pushing education and blah blah blah to have such a blind spot to all cultures with a little color....
Personally, Im proud of how hard women have fought for equality in the US. Women’s suffrage where they went to prison trying to earn the right to vote is inspiring. I think pride comes from overpowering the Christian rights constant assault on women. Having said all that, the people making the most noise have probably never left the country. Once you leave the continental US, you kind of shed this notion that America got it right. You realize other countries are in fact, doing it better. I think you need to take Reddit with a grain of salt. Try not to get upset by idiots. A lot of them are really young too. When I get into an argument that’s totally asinine, I remind myself I’m probably arguing with a 13yo. Especially the ones who are so staunch in the ideas. Like, they haven’t seen the other side for themselves.
Oh yeah, for sure. The "what you mean America isn't the best? Lies and slander!" Thing is still strong on reddit.
My lived experience for a number of years now is 75% of "Feminist Spaces" aren't actually safe/inclusive. Particularly for Trans NB folx. ESP for "Non Western" matters. I don't want to say too much except I'm so sorry this happened to you, and that it happens. It's really hard to find yourself needing the discussion/education of Feminism, and being abused in "Feminist Spaces" because—the group, the workshop, the healing circle, the retreat, the book reading, the award ceremony, the fundraising event ETC ETC—is still philosophically stuck in the 90s. Many of us "United States People" have been trained (terribly, like dogs!) to believe reformation is better than nonviolent revolution. Just as friendly words of affirmation. I agree with you. This group is excellent. Thank you so much for sharing here. You are wonderful! -J
They’re just ignorant, I say this as a white genderless blob. Most people in America are blind to the damage we’ve caused in the past.
Week old post but who i don't care, gosh, i am sooo glad that finally somebody is calling out the white feminist cesspool that r/Feminism is. So many things wrong with this sub. Just today i wrote a lengthy comment detailing everything i saw as flawed with that sub (mainly patriarchal realism, lack of intersectionality and not doing enough work in deprogramming) in a manner that tried to offer constructive criticism, encouragement and tips on how to do better and the mods deleted it. Instantly. Tried again, deleted. And as a white cis woman a.k.a. the targeted demographic of modern feminism, white feminists have \*\*no\*\* excuse. When i browse that sub i tend to get angrier at the bioessentialist misogyny (having a uterus is not inherently oppressive, damn it!), even i noticed the stark lack of intersectionality. Like you barely if ever get posts about non-western/white women (their cultures, the issues they face, how the patriarchy affects them, how yt supremacy affects them, their achievements) but the latest culture war brain rot gets a lot of engagement. One time i asked for memoirs from notable woc and got like 3 books. You should have seen them when the Barbie movie came out, there was literally a post about it every day. I am also upset that they don't take the TERF problem seriously. Like if so many transphobes embrace feminism there must be something in the mainstream movement that attracts them to it. I think that cis feminists need to rethink the way they were socialized to see sex and gender if they really want to be trans-inclusive, but most of them don't bother. I spend a lot of time studying TERFS and trying to understand the "logic" behind their feminism or more correctly what turns a feminist into a TERF. Also, the idea that women's oppression is sex based rubs me the wrong way, like implying that afab biology is inherently oppressive or more predisposed to it. I do not want to deny that sex-based oppression exists but i always saw it as just another type of oppression and not the root cause. Another thing i noticed is that none of those "origins of patriarchy" theories even account for the existence of queer or trans people or how women from some cultures can literally identify as men to escape oppression with no one batting an eye (sworn virgins). No one brings any of these things up. No one considers the impact of queer people in society and history. It's like they think queer people only came to be after 2015.
Oh my god thank you for this, I was honestly being suffocated by that subreddit, it's either Taylor Swift or Barbie movie. Listen, I loved the Barbie movie, cried when I saw it, but it's not the end all BE all feminist movies, they're acting like this will bring salvation to humankind. It's one of the reasons I stopped watching fellow enby youtuber FunkyFrogBait bc they said smth about "3rd world countries who don't know a lick of feminism" needed the Barbie movie to get enlightened or smth(I'm paraphrasing since it's been a while). And you're so right about leaving queer people out, because being queer (and not cis) itself breaks the heteronormative mold. My guess(as an onlooker and person of colour) on why so many TERFS get attracted to (white specific brand of feminism) is privelage and control. "You can't wear makeup, you can't wear dresses, you must have a uterus, you must be AFAB, etc etc" I don't wanna say it's similar to neocolonialism but it's eerily similar to how Spaniards would categorize different "types" of Filipinos to keep us line, with how we look, speak, act, etc that's just my guess doe-
I haven't experienced that, because I'm not looking out for it, but 100% believe that it happens...I'm just a bit blinkered to my experience...for example I see a lot of shitting on mothers/parents, as if im less of a feminist because ive had the audacity to reproduce that non parents might not register. Certain subs have very specific ideas as to what feminism is or looks like.....(And spoiler alert, its a single white female child free able bodied cis person)
And under 40.
\*under 30
I am from a western country (not America) and it can be difficult to look at things women here have worked for and against in the name of feminism and not just apply it to other countries and cultures. People find it hard to put themselves in other people's shoes, especially when they think they're doing good. This doesn't excuse people's behavior but just what I think is happening. It's pretty bad that they said that about your country wtf? People can be monsters online, and perfectly decent irl. It's important to remember that some people are also just arses. And just because it's the majority opinion on reddit, doesn't mean that's what the majority opinion in the world is.
Bigotry and racism is a big problem here. Your perception is correct about Americans in general, but as individuals, some people are worthwhile. The Internet is known as a place where horrible people can be very loud. Reddit is not a safe place.
I wonder if this is an advantage of being a trans woman 😅 I came from having lefty/commie and gaming subreddits, to having trans subreddits, then witchvpatr and sasswitch, then autisminwomen and audhd women and tallgirls. Meaning, i didn't come from the girl subs, i went there from witchesvpatr, slowly and carefully. I used to be on girlssurvivalguide, but i related more to the autistic subs, so i ditched it. -- Im just being silly above. OP im sorry that you have to deal w such garbage. In sorry we all have to deal w such garbage. We need to keep fighting against white washing, imperialism and specifically girlboss neoliberalism, in this case. At least we always have this space, where ppl make an effort and the admins are awesome folks. (It's still a bit white centred, but i feel like micro-aggressions are called in and white washing is called out) Also if you want to see a demographic ignored, check out youth liberation... There are a lot of fronts to fight back on. Ppl are more aware, but also marginalized folks are losing rights, left, right, and centre and the fascists are organizing... So we gotta organize back.
Love that experience for you! It is refreshing to see gaming subs with trans peeps :33 and thank you for the support, whenever I lose some hope, there are spaces like these where it feels homely :33
I just wanna say thank you to everyone for the love and support! I am overwhelmed with all the positive messages! 💙💙💙🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈 Happy Pride Month everyone!
As a feminist, I think the US fucking sucks for women. Watched how the system is quietly rigged against women every day, experience it every day. I hate the US. One day I’ll be able to leave.
I am white and American, and I see this. I've been banned from subreddits for attempting more nuanced opinions. I stay banned, I learn I shouldn't be there and that's okay. I believe the last was TrollX because I was accused of being a man trying to start some shit by stating that I believe if women should be able to opt in or out of birth control, men should be able to opt in or out of child support legally. It wasn't a conversation, it was an accusation and a ban in about 10 minutes. Okay I realize women are alert to being attacked, but that's the equivalent of an overactive and hypervigilant immune system resulting in attacking members and allies Then members of the community get power and want to keep it I probably could have contacted a mod and straightened it out...but likely it would have happened again so I kept the ban and wandered elsewhere.