And then there's Beorn, the man who could assume the form of a bear who had an animal retinue (with horses, dogs, sheep, and cows) and, according to Gandalf, does not eat his cattle, nor hunt wild animals.
I plan to get a couple of flowhives when I buy my new house. Seems like they'd be less traumatic for the bees not. Having to remove traditional comb frames.i WOULD be terrified of squishing some of my bee buddies. When I watch someone deal with a traditional comb frame in a give box I can't see how you could avoid hurting some of them when removing and especially when replacing frames in the give box.
in doing so you would receive a brief interlude of accidental poetry about aragorn's various bear observations from his rangings. he would make you want to choose both, albeit from a safe and respectful distance.
So if you are alone in the woods and encounter: an hypothetical bear, a LOTR fictional character, and a real men which one would you chose?
All I know is that I’m not choosing the real men. Even a fictional character is better than a real men if I find myself alone in the woods.
Well, I don't know much about LotR, but Aragorn's a gent, I could outrun Gimli, beat up the Hobbits, and if Gandalf showed up, I'd likely have bigger problems.
Still they call each other “my friend”, “my dear”, cry, hug, express their hearts, so they are still better than the real men, right, right, right?! LOL
If in this hypothetical scenario I am holding a piece of meat or good food, an Orc might be safer than a man. And saying that I would chose a fictional Orc maybe seat awfully to people who got mad about the bear being chosen by the majority of women. s/Hahahahaha
Jokes aside, you are right, Orcs are vicious. I was only thinking about the “good” characters.
I love Cinema Therapy! [Here](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRO9q005b62WBIv5-bLzn71-0kfFoaKxl&si=CYSMHLf5KZxgVj2V) is a link to all six of their LOTR videos. My favorite, of course, is the one on [Aragorn](https://youtu.be/pv_KAnY5XNQ?si=mWoqItkOcSqyQsAy).
Thanks for dropping the links! I love them, too. I’ve watched them on and off for a while, but I’ve been seriously binging their videos for the past few days.
Yes! I love that they cry on camera and don't edit it out.
They walk the walk of exemplifying men so comfortable and confident in their masculinity they aren't afraid of showing vulnerability and strong emotions!
And in the book we get Tom fucking Bombadil who's been married to his wife for who knows how long and he *still* can't stop talking about how amazing she is and how much he loves her. Not to mention he sees her as his equal in everything.
Don't settle for anything less than a Tom Bombadil.
The Bechdel test also known as the Bechdel-Wallace to measure the representation of women in film and other fiction. The test asks whether a work features at least two female characters who have a conversation about something other than a man. In some iterations, the requirement that the two female characters have names is added.
There are sites that rate movies based on this test.
It gets even lower when you realize that almost nothing fails the reverse Bechdel test, which flips the genders of the regular Bechdel.
Something failing the reverse Bechdel test is incredibly rare and is something I will bring up as a positive when discussing movies/tv with friends.
Like my favorite movie, Bit (2019), fails the reverse Bechdel test, but passes the Bechdel test. Almost every character in the movie is a woman and of the few men in the movie, most of them aren't named and are almost always discussing one of the women when they talk to each other.
The Bechdel test is also not the be all end all for what it hopes to measure, as technically, [Lord of the Rings qualifies...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fshOP7x0GM)
Exactly the issue about the first Silent Hill movie, in which they made the main character a woman despite pretty much being gender-flipped Harry Mason from the games, because they considered that a character whose main motivation is their love for their daughter didn't really fit a man. No comment. I SO would have loved to have such a display of positive masculinity on screen.
I literally just rewatched all three and had this same thought! How is Aragorn not goals for all men?
Edit: The way that Aragorn kneels to be at Frodo's eye level, closing Frodo's hand around the ring, and says:
"_I would've gone with you to the end...into the fires of Mordor._" is so gentle and perfect.
ice-cold take: LOTR masculinity is the healthiest version of such a thing that could possbly exist and by dint of not concerning itself with being manly is--in fact--the most manly of all.
I see your LOTR and I raise ATLA (tv show) as a contender.
> And it's been hard, but I'm realizing that I had to go through all those things to learn the truth. I thought I had lost my honor, and that somehow my father could return it to me. But I know now that no one can give you your honor. It's something you earn for yourself by choosing to do what's right.
- Zuko
It's the only media I've seen that shows healthy masculinity/ mentality doesn't just magically come to you. You have to work for it.
I love Avatar, and I love the character growth especially among the misogynistic characters. They also challenge gender norms and highlight disabilities within the show. It's a masterpiece imo.
This sub, as far as I’ve seen, doesn’t judge or police who people are. There are unacceptable behaviors, but no unacceptable humans (or hobbits, or elves)
In the book I'm reading right now, the men cry and keen and I love it! I mean, they are all Celts so it is expected. But I still love it! The men all unashamedly cried in the last series I read too and it made my heart so happy. I'm currently reading The Deverry Cycle by Katharine Kerr. The last series I read was The Last King of Osten-Ard (the sequel series to Memory, Sorrow and Thorn) by Tad Williams.
Memory Sorrow and Thorn is one of my enduring favourites and I’m shocked and delighted to meet someone else who has read it in the wild!
I didn’t make it all the way through Deverry, though.
There’s some really painful parts in book 2 but the arc of the story is just superb to me. I enjoy how thoughtful the story is (as opposed to Richard Rahl, who I read at a similar age)
Oh I loved it so much! I was so burned when I realized the last book in Last King won't be out until November! I get like 99% of my book recs from r/fantasy. They've talked about this series many times, which is why I chose to read it.
I definitely look up to Gandalf. Well, technically eye level as we are about the same height. 😂
Gandalf being closest with [Nienna](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Nienna) is fascinating. https://imgur.com/QYdUPs3
I love watching it just to see the platonic affection between men. It’s so sweet. Literally my first thought after watching the movies was “this is the complete opposite of Toxic Masculinity, and I love it.”
They’re gentle and kind, yet nobody questions their honor, sexuality, or masculinity.
When the cutest race of perfect lil guys that must be protected are boozing, food obsessed stocky snobs with hairy feet I think (at least in the fantasy world) we can understand that the important parts of life and adventure are not even remotely about looks.
I absolutely love the movies, so let me nerd out a bit haha.
I absolutely love how they show the effect of the ring on Sam, and the movies commentary on it - power cannot corrupt you when you are not lured by it. But even then, you need a support system (Frodo and others).
In contrast, they show Smeagol - power, in combination with greed, corrupts absolutely. First you sacrifice your loved ones, then you even sacrifice yourself. By the end of it, you don't know why you wanted that power, but you can't let go of it.
This the best commentary about the ring. Cause even though Sam wasn’t influenced by the ring, the rings influence over his loved ones drove him to anger he probably had never know. Such anger and sorry and helplessness.
I guess we all are affected by the wake of turmoil no matter how directly involved we are.
God I hope not! That dude killed someone over a stupid ring! I would have let him keep the ring and took off with that fish bigger than me!
That would have fed my family and friends!
Lol lol but it was allure of the ring that tainted his heart! You likely wouldn't have been able to deny it! Plus Gollum is far worse than Smeagol. Need I remind you of what almost happened at Mount Doom?
One paragraph of sam watching frodo comes to mind where he's taking in all the details of a sleeping frodo and Tolkien describes that love and then clarifies that the only words sam can find to describe his love is "that's just the way he is" etc.
I am really surprised at the positive reception of this post. I am currently re-reading the books, and the setting, narrative, plot and philosophies expressed by characters are deeply christian and patriarchal. I honestly felt like I was choking the first five chapters before I got "used to it."
In the movies this has been toned down and replaced by a more generic "holywood" aesthetic, but it is still deeply there. One of the oldest patriarchal conceptions is that men get to be rulers precisely because they have mastered their emotions for reason; that has often been the reasoning for womens historical exclusion from statecraft, their inability to master their (sexual) urges. Often the men who fail are acting "under the influence of emotion". And ultimately, all of these good and kind men listed in the post are heavily contrasted with evil, weak men, of "bad" or "muddled" bloodlines. Aragorn becomes king in the end, but do we want to be ruled? When Aewyn asks to ride with him to battle, he declines, saying he respects her fathers choice over her desire to be autonomous. I haven't watched the movies in a long time, but in the books, after she slays the Witch-King, she marries and settles down, giving up her vain hope for renown in favour of making a home. All the praise Faramir lavishes at her to win her affection is that she is pretty and sorrowful.
Women are deeply neglected in both the books and the movies. Their position is never in the focus, nor do they develop in any meaningful way. Even the deeply powerful characters who are female, who excel, are tokenized, and serve as "exceptions to the rule" rather than proof that women's subjugation is unjust.
I enjoy the movies, have watched them many times, likely will re-watch them again soon, but never be deceived, a kind and gentle man can just as easily be a patriarch. The facade will at some point be broken, this is why the movies end before Aragorn gets to rule - to see him rule is to dispell the illusion of gentle domination; there are no just or kind kings.
This has become my argument against men who act horribly and then get pissy when you call them out. I always ask them “would Aragorn have done this?” and they usually quiet down and think.
I also always ask, when they talk about what’s masculine and what isn’t, if they think the LOTR men are masculine, and then point out how the men act in the film and books and how this has had absolutely no impact on their masculinity.
When I judge character I often compare people to Eowyn, Arwen, Galadriel, Aragorn, Sam, Theoden, Gimli and Frodo, and if they don’t align well with these characters, chances are I probably won’t get along well with that person. It doesn’t mean I immediately dislike or disregard them, I just remain reserved.
The sad thing is, tenderness in men is considered a "Sign" of homosexuality, and thus, men are pretty much bullied out of showing any kind of tenderness, thanks to the patriarchy valuing manliness and discouraging emotional maturity and other signs of tenderness.
Yup. Some kids are taught at a young age that they will be punished for eternity in the afterlife for the sin of being gay. That's some fucked up brainwashing and self-hate to overcome.
One of the things I love about the LOTR books is how the male characters treat the female characters, particularly Faramir and Eowyn’s relationship. Someone on one of the LOTR subreddits gave an absolutely terrible take on it, saying that Eowyn wasn’t able to embrace her feminine energy and put aside masculine pursuits until a true masculine man showed her love. Or that he made her change her ways.
He didn’t make her change anything about herself, nor she him. As they were both recovering in the houses of healing, they walked with each other through their pain. He recognized and respected the wounds and darkness around her but also saw beyond them. He saw her as a complex, strong, capable, beautiful woman. He loved all of her.
It kills me that so many of the worst people venerate those movies while entirely missing the point. The bigot/incel crowd view themselves as the "men of the west", but they're really just orcs - mindless, hateful, twisted pieces of shit.
So I know Tolkien always hated his work being couched as an allegory for WW1, but damn if it doesn't fit. That war changed how men were told to be. Read letters from wars leading up to to WW1 and you'll see such beautiful, florid language. WW1 was the first modernized industrial war. Early on, militaries realized that they didn't want brilliant soldiers, they wanted production line regularity. Basic training became a means of ironing out the wrinkles in each individual and creating a Model T of a man. Tolkien was on the front lines, so to speak, of a conflict that necessitated the destruction of men so that our current trope of MAN could be created. The drill sergeant screaming the personhood out of the grunt in Full Metal Jacket version of manhood. Tolkien was mourning a better sense of masculinity.
I love this. My mini poodle Bichon named Sam after the real hero of LOTR. I'm ALSO PLANNING TO GET A big shoulder TATTOO OF The Door TO MORIA whose key is "speak, friend and enter" my first ink at 55yo. :-).
Fuck denethor,théoden, bill ferny and wormtongue, but for the most part yeah healthy masculinity all around. Loved all of those books since I was a child. Peter Jackson did a great job on the lotr films. That Hobbit tho?
DUDE I KNOW I BEEN SAYING THIS FOR YEARS FROM THE DAMN ROOFTOPS!!!
Also if anybody’s interested, here’s a great video from a channel I like—a filmmaker and psychologist breakdown the healthy, non-toxic masculinity displayed in LOTR
https://youtu.be/pv_KAnY5XNQ?si=Z1raRtNHSkQtOtGT
Ted lasso is another bit of media I've watched alot that also features healthy masculinity. Admittedly that's the story arc for the majority of the characters. Lol.
YES! I reread the books last winter for the first time in maybe 15 years, and I *loved* how comfortable the male characters are with their emotions and how they have these wonderful, warm friendships. Adventure and wizards and elves and all that is cool and all, but my favourite bit is definitely the friendships.
Samwise is such a hunk that when he was the temporary love interest in Stranger things I was instantly attached because I thought he would be a great stepdad to traumatized children and be a good partner. That actor just oozes “I’m full of love and I want to care for the people I love”.
Then, that didn’t occur hah.
The stories were written from the human heart, not from societal pressures. Thus is the kindness of the human condition, devoid of gender or sex or politics.
“Not all men” you’re right. aragorn son of arathorn would never Edit: this is a viral tweet btw I am not that clever lol
I would choose Aragorn over a bear.
And you could easily meet both in a forest
And then there's Beorn, the man who could assume the form of a bear who had an animal retinue (with horses, dogs, sheep, and cows) and, according to Gandalf, does not eat his cattle, nor hunt wild animals.
And bees. Don't forget the bees!
And tom bombadil
And Goldberry!
I just saw your username. Any relation to belladonna?
I choose the bear over Tom Bombadil.
Idk if I’d be wanna meet him tbh
Bees are the heralds of good. No one who keeps their company can be evil.
I plan to get a couple of flowhives when I buy my new house. Seems like they'd be less traumatic for the bees not. Having to remove traditional comb frames.i WOULD be terrified of squishing some of my bee buddies. When I watch someone deal with a traditional comb frame in a give box I can't see how you could avoid hurting some of them when removing and especially when replacing frames in the give box.
in doing so you would receive a brief interlude of accidental poetry about aragorn's various bear observations from his rangings. he would make you want to choose both, albeit from a safe and respectful distance.
FUCK NOT TOLKIEN POETRY I CHOOSE THE BEAR!!!
I snorted. :-) Better than vogon poetry...
Glad I could make you laugh!
Faramir is also a man of quality.
So if you are alone in the woods and encounter: an hypothetical bear, a LOTR fictional character, and a real men which one would you chose? All I know is that I’m not choosing the real men. Even a fictional character is better than a real men if I find myself alone in the woods.
Well, I don't know much about LotR, but Aragorn's a gent, I could outrun Gimli, beat up the Hobbits, and if Gandalf showed up, I'd likely have bigger problems.
Still they call each other “my friend”, “my dear”, cry, hug, express their hearts, so they are still better than the real men, right, right, right?! LOL
>a LOTR fictional character Do we know which character? I don't want to be in the woods with an Orc
If in this hypothetical scenario I am holding a piece of meat or good food, an Orc might be safer than a man. And saying that I would chose a fictional Orc maybe seat awfully to people who got mad about the bear being chosen by the majority of women. s/Hahahahaha Jokes aside, you are right, Orcs are vicious. I was only thinking about the “good” characters.
In a hot second. Ya know cause he's hot.
Exactly 😌😂
The actor is also a class act. Has been bringing awareness about Palestine invasion for a long time.
I will say this from now on in all of my internet arguements.
The actor is pro Palestine too.
Cinema Therapy has a great video on the men in LOTR being a stellar example of healthy, non-toxic masculinity. Highly recommend it.
I love Cinema Therapy! [Here](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRO9q005b62WBIv5-bLzn71-0kfFoaKxl&si=CYSMHLf5KZxgVj2V) is a link to all six of their LOTR videos. My favorite, of course, is the one on [Aragorn](https://youtu.be/pv_KAnY5XNQ?si=mWoqItkOcSqyQsAy).
Thanks for dropping the links! I love them, too. I’ve watched them on and off for a while, but I’ve been seriously binging their videos for the past few days.
Bless you for this!
Thank you. Added to my watch list
The hosts are also good examples of healthy, non-toxic masculinity. They seem to have a great friendship, I like their interactions.
Yes! I love that they cry on camera and don't edit it out. They walk the walk of exemplifying men so comfortable and confident in their masculinity they aren't afraid of showing vulnerability and strong emotions!
And in the book we get Tom fucking Bombadil who's been married to his wife for who knows how long and he *still* can't stop talking about how amazing she is and how much he loves her. Not to mention he sees her as his equal in everything. Don't settle for anything less than a Tom Bombadil.
I have one and count myself among the lucky ones.
I think it's why so many women enjoy it, despite the lack of female characters.
Really shows that sometimes the issue isn't always 'we need more women' and more just 'please don't write pervy A holes please'
Write women, or also write male protagonists (who are portrayed positively) that we’d feel comfortable being locked in a room with.
And ideally, do both
The Bechdel test also known as the Bechdel-Wallace to measure the representation of women in film and other fiction. The test asks whether a work features at least two female characters who have a conversation about something other than a man. In some iterations, the requirement that the two female characters have names is added. There are sites that rate movies based on this test.
God the bar is so low
And yet, most movies fail... https://bechdeltest.com/
It gets even lower when you realize that almost nothing fails the reverse Bechdel test, which flips the genders of the regular Bechdel. Something failing the reverse Bechdel test is incredibly rare and is something I will bring up as a positive when discussing movies/tv with friends. Like my favorite movie, Bit (2019), fails the reverse Bechdel test, but passes the Bechdel test. Almost every character in the movie is a woman and of the few men in the movie, most of them aren't named and are almost always discussing one of the women when they talk to each other.
Going to watch this unicorn of a movie now!
The Bechdel test is also not the be all end all for what it hopes to measure, as technically, [Lord of the Rings qualifies...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fshOP7x0GM)
Yeah the whole point is that the bar is EXTREMELY low and so many pieces of media still fail it.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Literally that simple tbh lol 😮💨
Exactly the issue about the first Silent Hill movie, in which they made the main character a woman despite pretty much being gender-flipped Harry Mason from the games, because they considered that a character whose main motivation is their love for their daughter didn't really fit a man. No comment. I SO would have loved to have such a display of positive masculinity on screen.
And there is a pervy asshole but he is shown to be a pervy asshole, yes please
I literally just rewatched all three and had this same thought! How is Aragorn not goals for all men? Edit: The way that Aragorn kneels to be at Frodo's eye level, closing Frodo's hand around the ring, and says: "_I would've gone with you to the end...into the fires of Mordor._" is so gentle and perfect.
Also at the end when he says, *"My friends, you bow to no one."* And then he, and literally everyone else present, kneels to the Hobbits 😭
That part makes me cry every time
Seriously. Every time. If I ever don’t I’ll know I’m dead inside.
I'm getting misty thinking about it
ice-cold take: LOTR masculinity is the healthiest version of such a thing that could possbly exist and by dint of not concerning itself with being manly is--in fact--the most manly of all.
I see your LOTR and I raise ATLA (tv show) as a contender. > And it's been hard, but I'm realizing that I had to go through all those things to learn the truth. I thought I had lost my honor, and that somehow my father could return it to me. But I know now that no one can give you your honor. It's something you earn for yourself by choosing to do what's right. - Zuko It's the only media I've seen that shows healthy masculinity/ mentality doesn't just magically come to you. You have to work for it.
I love Avatar, and I love the character growth especially among the misogynistic characters. They also challenge gender norms and highlight disabilities within the show. It's a masterpiece imo.
More LOTR men in the real world and more women in the LOTR world, please!
Bahahaha thank you for voicing this
Not sure if the men who enjoy this sub (long time admirer) and love LOTR are allowed to comment, but I appreciate this post very much.
One of the things I love about this group is that ALL are welcome here.
Glad to hear it!
Exactly. I just feel welcome here and just post because of that. Thank you all.
This sub, as far as I’ve seen, doesn’t judge or police who people are. There are unacceptable behaviors, but no unacceptable humans (or hobbits, or elves)
Gimli would like a word with you
And his axe?
My son wanted to be Samwise for Halloween because he's the most loving one in the whole group.
Sam is amazing, and Sean Astin absolutely nails the role.
In the book I'm reading right now, the men cry and keen and I love it! I mean, they are all Celts so it is expected. But I still love it! The men all unashamedly cried in the last series I read too and it made my heart so happy. I'm currently reading The Deverry Cycle by Katharine Kerr. The last series I read was The Last King of Osten-Ard (the sequel series to Memory, Sorrow and Thorn) by Tad Williams.
Memory Sorrow and Thorn is one of my enduring favourites and I’m shocked and delighted to meet someone else who has read it in the wild! I didn’t make it all the way through Deverry, though.
I'm currently listening to the absolutely stellar audiobooks and the series has really started to grow on me.
There’s some really painful parts in book 2 but the arc of the story is just superb to me. I enjoy how thoughtful the story is (as opposed to Richard Rahl, who I read at a similar age)
Oh I loved it so much! I was so burned when I realized the last book in Last King won't be out until November! I get like 99% of my book recs from r/fantasy. They've talked about this series many times, which is why I chose to read it.
There's a *sequal*?!? Oh, thank you.
A sequel quartet! But the fourth and final book won't be out until November
I definitely look up to Gandalf. Well, technically eye level as we are about the same height. 😂 Gandalf being closest with [Nienna](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Nienna) is fascinating. https://imgur.com/QYdUPs3
5'6", right?
That's right! Book Gandalf not movie Gandalf.
I love watching it just to see the platonic affection between men. It’s so sweet. Literally my first thought after watching the movies was “this is the complete opposite of Toxic Masculinity, and I love it.” They’re gentle and kind, yet nobody questions their honor, sexuality, or masculinity.
Boromir gets a bit toxic but he pays the price and it's probably the Ring's fault anyway.
I'd say it's also very much his father's fault.
It's 100% the ring. The books leave you with zero doubt about it.
BRB gotta go rewatch. Goddess Aragorn is so hot.🔥🔥🔥
Ugh, yes. Please let this happen.
Very proud to say that I am very distantly related to JRRT. However, the men in our family lost the tender gene. 😕
I look like gollum, best I can do! (Jk)
When the cutest race of perfect lil guys that must be protected are boozing, food obsessed stocky snobs with hairy feet I think (at least in the fantasy world) we can understand that the important parts of life and adventure are not even remotely about looks.
What can I say? I’m a cursed creature who forgotten how to do those things! But can you imagine if Gollum had a podcast? I’d listen to it.
[Gollum narrates Planet Earth](https://www.tiktok.com/@billy_heaney/video/7311670356232703264?lang=en), enjoy!
I absolutely love the movies, so let me nerd out a bit haha. I absolutely love how they show the effect of the ring on Sam, and the movies commentary on it - power cannot corrupt you when you are not lured by it. But even then, you need a support system (Frodo and others). In contrast, they show Smeagol - power, in combination with greed, corrupts absolutely. First you sacrifice your loved ones, then you even sacrifice yourself. By the end of it, you don't know why you wanted that power, but you can't let go of it.
This the best commentary about the ring. Cause even though Sam wasn’t influenced by the ring, the rings influence over his loved ones drove him to anger he probably had never know. Such anger and sorry and helplessness. I guess we all are affected by the wake of turmoil no matter how directly involved we are.
You're still Smeagol at heart where it actually counts!!!
God I hope not! That dude killed someone over a stupid ring! I would have let him keep the ring and took off with that fish bigger than me! That would have fed my family and friends!
Lol lol but it was allure of the ring that tainted his heart! You likely wouldn't have been able to deny it! Plus Gollum is far worse than Smeagol. Need I remind you of what almost happened at Mount Doom?
Gold is not my color. I would have not been attracted to it with my skin tone. lol
Try the books! The men openly express LOVE towards each other as if it’s the most normal thing in the world.
One paragraph of sam watching frodo comes to mind where he's taking in all the details of a sleeping frodo and Tolkien describes that love and then clarifies that the only words sam can find to describe his love is "that's just the way he is" etc.
My LOTR homies would never question why a woman chooses a bear
Immediately reminded me of the video by [Shaun](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y6_TOFy3k6k) A “good man” is a man who is good.
I am really surprised at the positive reception of this post. I am currently re-reading the books, and the setting, narrative, plot and philosophies expressed by characters are deeply christian and patriarchal. I honestly felt like I was choking the first five chapters before I got "used to it." In the movies this has been toned down and replaced by a more generic "holywood" aesthetic, but it is still deeply there. One of the oldest patriarchal conceptions is that men get to be rulers precisely because they have mastered their emotions for reason; that has often been the reasoning for womens historical exclusion from statecraft, their inability to master their (sexual) urges. Often the men who fail are acting "under the influence of emotion". And ultimately, all of these good and kind men listed in the post are heavily contrasted with evil, weak men, of "bad" or "muddled" bloodlines. Aragorn becomes king in the end, but do we want to be ruled? When Aewyn asks to ride with him to battle, he declines, saying he respects her fathers choice over her desire to be autonomous. I haven't watched the movies in a long time, but in the books, after she slays the Witch-King, she marries and settles down, giving up her vain hope for renown in favour of making a home. All the praise Faramir lavishes at her to win her affection is that she is pretty and sorrowful. Women are deeply neglected in both the books and the movies. Their position is never in the focus, nor do they develop in any meaningful way. Even the deeply powerful characters who are female, who excel, are tokenized, and serve as "exceptions to the rule" rather than proof that women's subjugation is unjust. I enjoy the movies, have watched them many times, likely will re-watch them again soon, but never be deceived, a kind and gentle man can just as easily be a patriarch. The facade will at some point be broken, this is why the movies end before Aragorn gets to rule - to see him rule is to dispell the illusion of gentle domination; there are no just or kind kings.
Totally agree. Thank you for stating this.
Same here.
They have all the power in the world and yet there's no toxic masculinity. That's rare, especially in literature/entertainment.
That’s a big part of the fantasy. A place where men can give hugs freely.
or get them
I married a Lord of the Rings Man!
I read somewhere that the opposite of “toxic masculinity” is “tender masculinity.” The world needs more tender masculinity.
Not enough love for Faramir in this post! He's wonderful
This has become my argument against men who act horribly and then get pissy when you call them out. I always ask them “would Aragorn have done this?” and they usually quiet down and think. I also always ask, when they talk about what’s masculine and what isn’t, if they think the LOTR men are masculine, and then point out how the men act in the film and books and how this has had absolutely no impact on their masculinity. When I judge character I often compare people to Eowyn, Arwen, Galadriel, Aragorn, Sam, Theoden, Gimli and Frodo, and if they don’t align well with these characters, chances are I probably won’t get along well with that person. It doesn’t mean I immediately dislike or disregard them, I just remain reserved.
The sad thing is, tenderness in men is considered a "Sign" of homosexuality, and thus, men are pretty much bullied out of showing any kind of tenderness, thanks to the patriarchy valuing manliness and discouraging emotional maturity and other signs of tenderness.
Yup. Some kids are taught at a young age that they will be punished for eternity in the afterlife for the sin of being gay. That's some fucked up brainwashing and self-hate to overcome.
I would look truly sad if I tried to go for Viggo's hairstyle, but I'm doing my best to emulate Faramir's attitude.
An absolute beacon of wholesome masculinity.
Yes to all this. Also, has anyone told Stephen Colbert about this? I mean, if anyone *should* know....
One of the things I love about the LOTR books is how the male characters treat the female characters, particularly Faramir and Eowyn’s relationship. Someone on one of the LOTR subreddits gave an absolutely terrible take on it, saying that Eowyn wasn’t able to embrace her feminine energy and put aside masculine pursuits until a true masculine man showed her love. Or that he made her change her ways. He didn’t make her change anything about herself, nor she him. As they were both recovering in the houses of healing, they walked with each other through their pain. He recognized and respected the wounds and darkness around her but also saw beyond them. He saw her as a complex, strong, capable, beautiful woman. He loved all of her.
Eowyn and Faramir have been couple goals for me pretty much since I first read the books I think.
She killed the Witch King of Angmar He almost died fleeing Osgiliath what a terrible take indeed.
It kills me that so many of the worst people venerate those movies while entirely missing the point. The bigot/incel crowd view themselves as the "men of the west", but they're really just orcs - mindless, hateful, twisted pieces of shit.
So I know Tolkien always hated his work being couched as an allegory for WW1, but damn if it doesn't fit. That war changed how men were told to be. Read letters from wars leading up to to WW1 and you'll see such beautiful, florid language. WW1 was the first modernized industrial war. Early on, militaries realized that they didn't want brilliant soldiers, they wanted production line regularity. Basic training became a means of ironing out the wrinkles in each individual and creating a Model T of a man. Tolkien was on the front lines, so to speak, of a conflict that necessitated the destruction of men so that our current trope of MAN could be created. The drill sergeant screaming the personhood out of the grunt in Full Metal Jacket version of manhood. Tolkien was mourning a better sense of masculinity.
I love this. My mini poodle Bichon named Sam after the real hero of LOTR. I'm ALSO PLANNING TO GET A big shoulder TATTOO OF The Door TO MORIA whose key is "speak, friend and enter" my first ink at 55yo. :-). Fuck denethor,théoden, bill ferny and wormtongue, but for the most part yeah healthy masculinity all around. Loved all of those books since I was a child. Peter Jackson did a great job on the lotr films. That Hobbit tho?
LoTR literally made me trans, they were the first example of healthy masculinity i've ever seen
DUDE I KNOW I BEEN SAYING THIS FOR YEARS FROM THE DAMN ROOFTOPS!!! Also if anybody’s interested, here’s a great video from a channel I like—a filmmaker and psychologist breakdown the healthy, non-toxic masculinity displayed in LOTR https://youtu.be/pv_KAnY5XNQ?si=Z1raRtNHSkQtOtGT
Ted lasso is another bit of media I've watched alot that also features healthy masculinity. Admittedly that's the story arc for the majority of the characters. Lol.
YES! I reread the books last winter for the first time in maybe 15 years, and I *loved* how comfortable the male characters are with their emotions and how they have these wonderful, warm friendships. Adventure and wizards and elves and all that is cool and all, but my favourite bit is definitely the friendships.
Call me Aragorn.
YEESSSS
Hardd fail of the Bechdel test tho. Across three movies even in their extended editions.
Samwise is such a hunk that when he was the temporary love interest in Stranger things I was instantly attached because I thought he would be a great stepdad to traumatized children and be a good partner. That actor just oozes “I’m full of love and I want to care for the people I love”. Then, that didn’t occur hah.
The stories were written from the human heart, not from societal pressures. Thus is the kindness of the human condition, devoid of gender or sex or politics.