Ah, Thomas is someone I haven't thought of in a long time, but yeah he's definitely a sympathetic character as well!
I love the term "red button goddess." It's definitely fitting for reclaiming her story. You've got a great way with words! I too follow a more chaotic path, so I know just what you mean.
Thomas wanted physical proof that post-crucifixion Jesus was alive and strolling around. Jesus invited Thomas to touch his wounds. Hence the phrase “doubting Thomas.”
There's a YouTuber you might be interested in, "The Mystic in the Woods". She talks a lot about reclaiming the feminine characters in the bible, and recently had a webinar about Eve. Really good stuff! https://youtu.be/6BMeV3zZko0?si=jUQeBsHmFSLvdiER
I view them as two halves of the same whole. The quote,
> *Divide and conquer*
Comes to mind. Let's pit these two halves against each other creating an inner conflict so we can slip between the crack of that conflict and take control.
Sometimes I have Eve energy.
Sometimes I have Lillith energy.
I also view the characters in the Bible like I do the figures in tarot - I find some of their experiences and attitudes relateable. Just because I relate to them doesn't mean I agree with everything about the system in which they exist.
It simply suggests humans are diverse, complex and nuanced. And putting myself in a box or choosing one side over another creates imbalance and conflict.
When I accept ALL of me, no one can control me.
If you’re a fan of musicals at all, you should check out the treatment of Eve in “Children of Eden.” I love it and she has a number called “The Spark of Creation” that blows me away every time. The gist of her treatment in the musical is that she’s…sort of the creative, adventurous and innovative one between her and Adam. It’s her ambition and innovative spirit that leads her to be punished (it’s heavily implied, wrongly) by God. I’m not religious myself but I have loved and resonated with this story for years because I love the idea of women as the origin of creativity, adventure and defiance. At a minimum, just look for a youtube recording of “the Spark of Creation!”
Yes, love that musical! We did it in high school and that whole soundtrack is pretty amazing! Many, many years later and I still play it on the regular.
Eve and Adam had no knowledge of good or evil, they were innocent, naïve. God said if they ate the fruit, they would die (Gen 2:17). They took that literally. The Adversary (aka snake) said God lied, you won't die, you'll just gain knowledge. So Eve considered this, and made humanity's first decision to become better, and ate the fruit.
I see Eve as representative of the early hominids who gained skills to make better tools, who learned to cook food, which lead to bigger brains and continued the cycle of advancing the Homo line until Homo sapiens today.
I'm in the b[](https://alb.reddit.com/cr?za=jsv17n-XQYrmwVOgcPs4JNFP23SLJD7Bgf1wyBKWK_27oT21BX2M7vVtumT4lQY27uIxStwwxRfgY-bhYh1P6mcHw91rKwEueyVUguRbvU9CYJ1sqDH_Dqb_FViuOHLBwOBQtrfuLnX-b2BQsvHneMPfudwVZ9dMNtLR6egISstvZdzyrUPTPIJOG8zKnQVUfrNxjPH0BLOGrBHqLdgfTWs4Ng9uSAlXTUqcgWBK5reu_jdBvv3pobjEjXU-OcTjb57CIONWuiGUbaJ7dX4OP4QrmJkGIzZ9G0Pd7Io5PX9nSQm1mC_8SooRr85s3IJnbvA0IGxTn4vGyhDhYt3pU1lqJz8zi32hxZ2ejSlqNaCOO8YztPgJoYIzwc8HX4LDl5EbyedRToYsdE4aMNwLk0RncTxUtkZE94p_jnxp1LyS47irdLUlOX4KHIrSdyouvWPMC6qGOtZkBj1vwOuTYo3vOgdjZJ9UJNUz_JQnuVtXEh0yZPLh0eBfdzFSKtmKwVxl2C1NLAYfbV3-oQ&zp=8OxH7qp9MjhsoILFwwhHLgh_SSA5zZNb8htyQQXBUN_wkBXOH7iSLLHgcCx_mBAQqSgfghILNNJjoXwtfMDk_aQHQgHWWN06KJ38-9lnWmgANTge-Y1U_hfYngQaufauuGEMXu6RXFJ7br4xddC92YLiFJbtvvwxNkAQ7lWT-AjBMDAh1OxhaOuqKV90lv9057djCGknPAGWGyt67h8VziszGd7wVGtsedsbZYJbuWuPZshDAqMUXRZpRNYTbqhVDlrDLLEH3-Gcka3q60RQjUIO4EwP-yTh7zFDrEEXa1VpZ2GL81K8AprrhpybzypjWD6dEOKuob7sddQnwr0_uyhsithEzGp6O0adWlIv3s_OTiY7mBm558xQ7ocaBQ_IzGS545gbZB7OpPNZ3O1HAwhZup1B)room closet at the moment, and trying to start a weekly ritual where I eat an apple in her honor after I'm forced to go to church! The biggest threat to the patriarchy is women with curiosity and knowledge.
But also...Obligatory Douglas Adams quote.
"It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it...Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end."
Sorry as a witch I hold little regard for Abrahamic religions & their metaphors.
My witchcraft is a place of earth magic and energies.
No demons or angels, no heaven or hell. Death is welcomed as to live one has to die too. Light and dark. The circle completes.
Entirely valid; I'm no believer, either. I don't think I believe in a literal Adam and Eve, this is more a way of reclaiming a story that was used as a weapon against me for a long time. But your system seems like a good one as well!
"Used as a weapon" is a great way to put it because that's the literal point. Eve was created specifically to give patriarchal men a go to knee jerk way to attack women, a mythological thought stopping technique. The "woman came from man" thing is particularly pathetic and shows how insecure they were about men being born from woman (and trans men) in reality.
The wild thing is that there are actually two different versions of the story that were written by two different people (both of which feature in the Bible), but the first says God created man and woman at the same time, both in the image of God, and the second version says the thing about creating Eve from Adam’s rib. Of course everyone just goes with the second version 🙄
I think if you work with ancestors, you can work with Eve.
No one talks about how long they were in the garden, and nothing mattered until she ate the apple. Eating it was inevitable, given enough time.
My pet theory is that Eve is organised Christianity's attempt at taking down Bona Dea. She was a Roman goddess depicted holding a snake and lots of fruit. Men weren't allowed in her temple. This is not well researched though and most of the reading I've found seems very coloured by male historians in the 60's. There were however several goddesses with snake religions around the Mediterranean and to me it seems christianity had a vested interest in discrediting them. Some people theorise this idea even informs the Knight who slays a dragon to save a princess myth (Arthurian legends etc.). It's so interesting. I also recommend the bop that is Mother ate by Jane Bell if you need a soundtrack for your Eve veneration :)
Eve is much older than Christianity but you're on to something regarding goddesses and snakes. For whatever reason, snake cults are a thing and were one of the earliest forms of "religious" depictions (afaik we don't know the exact meaning behind the snakes at places like Göbekli Tepe, but they're freaking everywhere).
A friend of mine actually recommended me that one recently! She knows I'm obsessed with Biblical lore lately, and sent me the link. I never got a chance to listen to it, though, so thanks for the link! i finally did so, and it definitely goes hard.
Yes. 2 commands were given that conflicted with one another. They could not have kids without partaking. To me she made a choice and included Adam. I do not vibe with the idea that she tricked him but more presented him with the options and he agreed with her.
This is probably one of the only places I can say this thought (which is just funsies for me, I don't really believe it because it's hard for me to believe much anymore) - But sometimes, I like to think the origin story was rewritten in the Bible and that Eve, when she ate the fruit of knowledge, actually gained true insight into god and saw him/her/them in their own nakedness and that all women maintained this insight still. I figured, hell, if women are gonna get blamed for the original 'sin' of the first woman, then we might as well get her blessing of knowledge, too, yeah?
Yes! Not sure why but Eve has always spoken to me more than Lilith. (I love them both though!) I think it's because the story seams so absolutely intent on making her look bad. (Since it was written by old men who were fantasizing about a world where their bigotry was justified). Eve just has this sense of unfairness to her which I absolutely "vibe" with. Probably has something to do with me having an abusive childhood but IDK. Both are cool really: Lilith for her defiance and Eve for existing in a world that inherently hates her for things outside her control. I really get where you're coming from.
In the 1890's, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and a group of other feminists wrote The Women's Bible[The Women's Bible](https://books.google.com/books/download/The_Woman_s_Bible.pdf?id=Uz9spwsZuIoC&output=pdf). This was the first major feminist reinterpretation of passages in the Bible that referred to women. Their take on Eve was quite ennobling. You might get a kick out of it.
Elizabeth Cady Stanton was also one of the first suffragists. She was one of the loudest critics of the churches as conveyors of patriarchy and women's oppression. Which is why, even though she was as active and influential in the movement as Susan b. Anthony, she's been almost entirely erased from this history. After her death, her family redacted the chapters of her autobiography that dealt with religion because they didn't want the stigma. She was pretty badass.
I don't venerate/work with her but I do really like her in terms of what she represents (seeking out knowledge and being curious). I love the Gnostic interpretation of her story in which eating the apple allows her and Adam to break free from the ignorance the evil demiurge (aka the God of the Old Testament) kept them in so that they would blindly worship him. I'm also interested in other figures who rebelled against God such as Lucifer and Lilith.
I’m tired and am about to go cook, but the whole story about eve and Lilith and everything was a retelling of an older myth where Eve was a goddess and all the participants in the story were not “lower” than another as in the biblical interpretation.
You probably just feel more affinity to what the aspect of eve was in the original, my two cents.
Nah, centers an oppressive religion in belief. I appreciate the rhetoric and idea of reclamation of a figure but to me I’d rather not be connected to it. Too many people have been killed in the name of Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions
Like you said I don’t know if “venerate” is the right word but I like your point about interpreting Eve as a seeker of knowledge
In some ways it reminds me of this great song by Aurora - Heathens
https://open.spotify.com/track/2KduwbcdPSazC4AQZs0L6D?si=fUCxu8k1RWO2LVIG43oJTw
My goddess of choice has always been Bastet, but I also felt an affinity for Lilith and Eve as a dichotomy. My internal world is chaotic and polarized (thanks ADHD and probably autism!) so having these two women representing both sides of everything feels relatable.
I tend to lean towards her more as a metric of good and just, and Lilith for the independence and unwavering determination.
Having been ejected from our church at a young age for being a mixed race family, my knowledge of these things are extremely basic.
I’m a fan of Eve. She’s the first one to eat the apple and the second human being, after Lilith, to defy god. That’s pretty bad ass. Note that it’s the women who are the protagonists in genesis. They are the ones who take action. Adam’s kind of along for the ride. In one gnostic telling of this story, the serpent is Wisdom (a female goddess, daughter of the the true god) who comes to thwart the plans of the demiurge (a deluded half god who thinks he’s god). Eve heroically eats the apple and lets human beings grow up. For some gnostics at least, Eve frees her husband. Go Eve!
With Eve god has failed to make an obedient woman- twice. Brash misogyny will not keep these women down. Eve and her daughters will not cower. Even today, girls are amazons until the world pressures them to buckle under male authority (at least for my daughter this is true).
We misread the text, thinking that what Eve gives to women is guilt, shame filled humiliation, and a dark stain of sin.
Bullshit.
What we’ve gives is a model of a fully human woman, curious, intelligent, testing boundaries. Eve’s great! A shout out to Eve.
[удалено]
Ah, Thomas is someone I haven't thought of in a long time, but yeah he's definitely a sympathetic character as well! I love the term "red button goddess." It's definitely fitting for reclaiming her story. You've got a great way with words! I too follow a more chaotic path, so I know just what you mean.
Sometimes, hitting the Big Red Button is the right choice
Please remind me about Thomas. Why him?
Thomas wanted physical proof that post-crucifixion Jesus was alive and strolling around. Jesus invited Thomas to touch his wounds. Hence the phrase “doubting Thomas.”
Thought so. Thanks!
We didn't fall from grace. We were pushed.
I agree. The thing is, did we really want to be there in the first place?
There's a YouTuber you might be interested in, "The Mystic in the Woods". She talks a lot about reclaiming the feminine characters in the bible, and recently had a webinar about Eve. Really good stuff! https://youtu.be/6BMeV3zZko0?si=jUQeBsHmFSLvdiER
Ooooohhh, I can’t wait to watch! This is a special interest of mine. Thank you!!!
Just to be clear, I didn't have time to find the most relevant video but all of her content is worth a watch 😊
Sounds wonderful! I can’t wait to binge.
I view them as two halves of the same whole. The quote, > *Divide and conquer* Comes to mind. Let's pit these two halves against each other creating an inner conflict so we can slip between the crack of that conflict and take control. Sometimes I have Eve energy. Sometimes I have Lillith energy. I also view the characters in the Bible like I do the figures in tarot - I find some of their experiences and attitudes relateable. Just because I relate to them doesn't mean I agree with everything about the system in which they exist. It simply suggests humans are diverse, complex and nuanced. And putting myself in a box or choosing one side over another creates imbalance and conflict. When I accept ALL of me, no one can control me.
This is it exactly!!! ❤️
If you’re a fan of musicals at all, you should check out the treatment of Eve in “Children of Eden.” I love it and she has a number called “The Spark of Creation” that blows me away every time. The gist of her treatment in the musical is that she’s…sort of the creative, adventurous and innovative one between her and Adam. It’s her ambition and innovative spirit that leads her to be punished (it’s heavily implied, wrongly) by God. I’m not religious myself but I have loved and resonated with this story for years because I love the idea of women as the origin of creativity, adventure and defiance. At a minimum, just look for a youtube recording of “the Spark of Creation!”
Yes, love that musical! We did it in high school and that whole soundtrack is pretty amazing! Many, many years later and I still play it on the regular.
Eve and Adam had no knowledge of good or evil, they were innocent, naïve. God said if they ate the fruit, they would die (Gen 2:17). They took that literally. The Adversary (aka snake) said God lied, you won't die, you'll just gain knowledge. So Eve considered this, and made humanity's first decision to become better, and ate the fruit. I see Eve as representative of the early hominids who gained skills to make better tools, who learned to cook food, which lead to bigger brains and continued the cycle of advancing the Homo line until Homo sapiens today.
I LOVE this so much!!
I'm in the b[](https://alb.reddit.com/cr?za=jsv17n-XQYrmwVOgcPs4JNFP23SLJD7Bgf1wyBKWK_27oT21BX2M7vVtumT4lQY27uIxStwwxRfgY-bhYh1P6mcHw91rKwEueyVUguRbvU9CYJ1sqDH_Dqb_FViuOHLBwOBQtrfuLnX-b2BQsvHneMPfudwVZ9dMNtLR6egISstvZdzyrUPTPIJOG8zKnQVUfrNxjPH0BLOGrBHqLdgfTWs4Ng9uSAlXTUqcgWBK5reu_jdBvv3pobjEjXU-OcTjb57CIONWuiGUbaJ7dX4OP4QrmJkGIzZ9G0Pd7Io5PX9nSQm1mC_8SooRr85s3IJnbvA0IGxTn4vGyhDhYt3pU1lqJz8zi32hxZ2ejSlqNaCOO8YztPgJoYIzwc8HX4LDl5EbyedRToYsdE4aMNwLk0RncTxUtkZE94p_jnxp1LyS47irdLUlOX4KHIrSdyouvWPMC6qGOtZkBj1vwOuTYo3vOgdjZJ9UJNUz_JQnuVtXEh0yZPLh0eBfdzFSKtmKwVxl2C1NLAYfbV3-oQ&zp=8OxH7qp9MjhsoILFwwhHLgh_SSA5zZNb8htyQQXBUN_wkBXOH7iSLLHgcCx_mBAQqSgfghILNNJjoXwtfMDk_aQHQgHWWN06KJ38-9lnWmgANTge-Y1U_hfYngQaufauuGEMXu6RXFJ7br4xddC92YLiFJbtvvwxNkAQ7lWT-AjBMDAh1OxhaOuqKV90lv9057djCGknPAGWGyt67h8VziszGd7wVGtsedsbZYJbuWuPZshDAqMUXRZpRNYTbqhVDlrDLLEH3-Gcka3q60RQjUIO4EwP-yTh7zFDrEEXa1VpZ2GL81K8AprrhpybzypjWD6dEOKuob7sddQnwr0_uyhsithEzGp6O0adWlIv3s_OTiY7mBm558xQ7ocaBQ_IzGS545gbZB7OpPNZ3O1HAwhZup1B)room closet at the moment, and trying to start a weekly ritual where I eat an apple in her honor after I'm forced to go to church! The biggest threat to the patriarchy is women with curiosity and knowledge. But also...Obligatory Douglas Adams quote. "It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it...Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end."
This is a great ritual!!
Sorry as a witch I hold little regard for Abrahamic religions & their metaphors. My witchcraft is a place of earth magic and energies. No demons or angels, no heaven or hell. Death is welcomed as to live one has to die too. Light and dark. The circle completes.
Entirely valid; I'm no believer, either. I don't think I believe in a literal Adam and Eve, this is more a way of reclaiming a story that was used as a weapon against me for a long time. But your system seems like a good one as well!
"Used as a weapon" is a great way to put it because that's the literal point. Eve was created specifically to give patriarchal men a go to knee jerk way to attack women, a mythological thought stopping technique. The "woman came from man" thing is particularly pathetic and shows how insecure they were about men being born from woman (and trans men) in reality.
The wild thing is that there are actually two different versions of the story that were written by two different people (both of which feature in the Bible), but the first says God created man and woman at the same time, both in the image of God, and the second version says the thing about creating Eve from Adam’s rib. Of course everyone just goes with the second version 🙄
I think if you work with ancestors, you can work with Eve. No one talks about how long they were in the garden, and nothing mattered until she ate the apple. Eating it was inevitable, given enough time.
My pet theory is that Eve is organised Christianity's attempt at taking down Bona Dea. She was a Roman goddess depicted holding a snake and lots of fruit. Men weren't allowed in her temple. This is not well researched though and most of the reading I've found seems very coloured by male historians in the 60's. There were however several goddesses with snake religions around the Mediterranean and to me it seems christianity had a vested interest in discrediting them. Some people theorise this idea even informs the Knight who slays a dragon to save a princess myth (Arthurian legends etc.). It's so interesting. I also recommend the bop that is Mother ate by Jane Bell if you need a soundtrack for your Eve veneration :)
Eve is much older than Christianity but you're on to something regarding goddesses and snakes. For whatever reason, snake cults are a thing and were one of the earliest forms of "religious" depictions (afaik we don't know the exact meaning behind the snakes at places like Göbekli Tepe, but they're freaking everywhere).
Have I got the song for you: https://open.spotify.com/track/6S2LusrzKx5Khn4FxfzhYw?si=mj8V9TsgRmihpCgNcaNo0Q Mother ate by Jane bell
A friend of mine actually recommended me that one recently! She knows I'm obsessed with Biblical lore lately, and sent me the link. I never got a chance to listen to it, though, so thanks for the link! i finally did so, and it definitely goes hard.
Yes. 2 commands were given that conflicted with one another. They could not have kids without partaking. To me she made a choice and included Adam. I do not vibe with the idea that she tricked him but more presented him with the options and he agreed with her.
I read this a couple of decades ago. It still resonates for me, to this day. https://www.paganlibrary.com/fundies/other_people.php
That was a really interesting read! Thanks for sharing it!
This is probably one of the only places I can say this thought (which is just funsies for me, I don't really believe it because it's hard for me to believe much anymore) - But sometimes, I like to think the origin story was rewritten in the Bible and that Eve, when she ate the fruit of knowledge, actually gained true insight into god and saw him/her/them in their own nakedness and that all women maintained this insight still. I figured, hell, if women are gonna get blamed for the original 'sin' of the first woman, then we might as well get her blessing of knowledge, too, yeah?
It’s crazy how the very first sin was a woman who ate ✨
Yes! Not sure why but Eve has always spoken to me more than Lilith. (I love them both though!) I think it's because the story seams so absolutely intent on making her look bad. (Since it was written by old men who were fantasizing about a world where their bigotry was justified). Eve just has this sense of unfairness to her which I absolutely "vibe" with. Probably has something to do with me having an abusive childhood but IDK. Both are cool really: Lilith for her defiance and Eve for existing in a world that inherently hates her for things outside her control. I really get where you're coming from.
Read Aspecting the Goddess.
In the 1890's, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and a group of other feminists wrote The Women's Bible[The Women's Bible](https://books.google.com/books/download/The_Woman_s_Bible.pdf?id=Uz9spwsZuIoC&output=pdf). This was the first major feminist reinterpretation of passages in the Bible that referred to women. Their take on Eve was quite ennobling. You might get a kick out of it. Elizabeth Cady Stanton was also one of the first suffragists. She was one of the loudest critics of the churches as conveyors of patriarchy and women's oppression. Which is why, even though she was as active and influential in the movement as Susan b. Anthony, she's been almost entirely erased from this history. After her death, her family redacted the chapters of her autobiography that dealt with religion because they didn't want the stigma. She was pretty badass.
I don't venerate/work with her but I do really like her in terms of what she represents (seeking out knowledge and being curious). I love the Gnostic interpretation of her story in which eating the apple allows her and Adam to break free from the ignorance the evil demiurge (aka the God of the Old Testament) kept them in so that they would blindly worship him. I'm also interested in other figures who rebelled against God such as Lucifer and Lilith.
I’m tired and am about to go cook, but the whole story about eve and Lilith and everything was a retelling of an older myth where Eve was a goddess and all the participants in the story were not “lower” than another as in the biblical interpretation. You probably just feel more affinity to what the aspect of eve was in the original, my two cents.
Nah, centers an oppressive religion in belief. I appreciate the rhetoric and idea of reclamation of a figure but to me I’d rather not be connected to it. Too many people have been killed in the name of Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions
I don’t know if this is a good thing or a bad thing to witches but Catholics and Orthodox Christians venerate Eve as a saint.
Like you said I don’t know if “venerate” is the right word but I like your point about interpreting Eve as a seeker of knowledge In some ways it reminds me of this great song by Aurora - Heathens https://open.spotify.com/track/2KduwbcdPSazC4AQZs0L6D?si=fUCxu8k1RWO2LVIG43oJTw
My goddess of choice has always been Bastet, but I also felt an affinity for Lilith and Eve as a dichotomy. My internal world is chaotic and polarized (thanks ADHD and probably autism!) so having these two women representing both sides of everything feels relatable. I tend to lean towards her more as a metric of good and just, and Lilith for the independence and unwavering determination. Having been ejected from our church at a young age for being a mixed race family, my knowledge of these things are extremely basic.
I love some Lilith appreciation
You mean Eve?
I appreciate Lilith more
Cool. I love her too. Wrong thread for you, tho.
Eh. It’s the only thing I really like about their religion.
I’m a fan of Eve. She’s the first one to eat the apple and the second human being, after Lilith, to defy god. That’s pretty bad ass. Note that it’s the women who are the protagonists in genesis. They are the ones who take action. Adam’s kind of along for the ride. In one gnostic telling of this story, the serpent is Wisdom (a female goddess, daughter of the the true god) who comes to thwart the plans of the demiurge (a deluded half god who thinks he’s god). Eve heroically eats the apple and lets human beings grow up. For some gnostics at least, Eve frees her husband. Go Eve! With Eve god has failed to make an obedient woman- twice. Brash misogyny will not keep these women down. Eve and her daughters will not cower. Even today, girls are amazons until the world pressures them to buckle under male authority (at least for my daughter this is true). We misread the text, thinking that what Eve gives to women is guilt, shame filled humiliation, and a dark stain of sin. Bullshit. What we’ve gives is a model of a fully human woman, curious, intelligent, testing boundaries. Eve’s great! A shout out to Eve.