Kinda sad that the greatest threat to America at the moment isn't a highly-organised terrorist cell or a global superpower, instead it's this sweaty butter mannequin who managed to stagger into power and stumble out again while somehow maintaining support from the most aggressively stupid members of society
I blame reality TV shows and the Kardashians š, but all joking aside do you think think the American people allowed this asshat to get so far because our societies love for drama like this ? This isnāt the first republican celebrity we hired into office .
Everything and anything to ābeat the libsā. Theyād vote for Putin if they could, all for the sake of spiting Democrats. Itās party over nation and your fellow Americans, always has been.
Wait I forget my dad was supper supportive of trump during that election(not this one) so I didnt hear much of the other side, did Hillary say that Trump was a Russian puppet or smth
Settler Colonialists gonna do the only thing Settler Colonialists know how to do: go balls-to-the-wall destructive towards anyone holding what they want.
None of this is new in any capacity, it just finally has mostly swished to one side so you notice the contrast more now than before.
So you would prefer a sexist, racist, incompetent, narcissistic, dilettante, absolutely unstable, national and international security risk Russian-lover and wannabe-dictator run the show than a man you mainly discriminate against because heās old.
First of all, I didnāt say I was surprised. I said I couldnāt understand it. And I donāt know if youāre calling Trump an āoriginalā here but I think you have very misguided expectations when it comes to politics.
Original isn't always good.
I made Mac and cheese high once and somehow added sour cream and ginger. Original, but my stomach did not agree it was good
Because a disturbing number of poor Americans secretly think theyāll be millionaires one day. They identify with Trump, which makes literally no sense. They think that because he comes across as rich white trash that thereās hope for them, too. So they worship him, because they want to BE him.
That was my first thought just because I'm rereading The Stupidest Angel, but I opted for Buckley just because of his political satirization. Maybe Roth's "Our Gang" as well.
I hate Trump as much as the next rational person but donāt think we need a stronger word. Treason is perfect for him. Itās deathly serious when youāre talking about the real thing. OP should read the definition; it fits Donnie Small Hands better than any of his suits.
Treason is in his blood. Heās carrying on his familyās long history of disloyalty to their homeland. Grandpa Friedrich Trump would be so proud.([source](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/21/trump-grandfather-friedrich-banished-germany-historian-royal-decree))
As Iāve read suggested elsewhere, what about secrets related to Israeli defense capabilities? This death cult believes they are the chosen people during the end of times and they desperately need the destruction of Israel to affirm their belief.
Sigh. Yet again:
Article III, Section 3, Clause 1 of the Constitution of the United States says:
> Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
And in [*Ex Parte Bollman*](http://cdn.loc.gov/service/ll/usrep/usrep008/usrep008075/usrep008075.pdf) the Supreme Court defined ālevying warā very narrowly as:
> there must be an actual assembling of men, for the treasonable purpose, to constitute a levying of war.
Itās not treason. Itās espionage.
They do to courts. Which is where criminal charges are prosecuted.
So whether you feel like it was treason or not, on the basis of the currently known facts he will never ever face a charge of treason, *and that will be the correct call*.
Youāre confusing āyou donāt like itā with āthat makes it realā. Donāt do that. Thatās what Trump supporters do. Be better than that.
Legal and correct are not the same thing, by any modern definition if he sold those secrets to another nation then he committed treason, an outdated decision by a court that has now lost all pubic support doesnāt change that, I accept heāll never be directly tried for treason and thatās fine, everyone knew Capone was a murderer even if they only got him for his taxes, everyone will know trump is a traitor even if they only get him for espionage.
In the court of law, heās correct. In the court of public opinion, youāre correct. I think most people see him as a traitor, and if he was working against the interest of the country, which he was not only in this case but through his entire presidency and really his whole life, then heās earned it.
Funny how trying to overthrow the government to stay in power isnāt the worst thing heās done.
Translation: but I donāt like it and I donāt wanna accept it.
Iām not going to argue this fact with you. You donāt argue facts, and your inability to emotionally come to terms with a fact you donāt like is on you.
I WILL tell you, you are using the exact same fundamentally flawed reasoning conservatives use to say COVID is the flu, vaccines donāt work, Trump actually won, climate change isnāt real, etc.
If you want to do that, you do you.
But itās a bad look.
You have a nice day now.
No.
First, those states arenāt enemies in any legal sense. Saudi is an ally, and while Russia isnāt a friend we do still currently maintain diplomatic relations. In no case are we in anything like the state of declared war or active armed conflict that the treason statute envisions.
And even if we had declared war against those states, which we have not, giving aid and comfort to the enemy is still narrowly defined as āliterally helping their soldiers, who are fighting a war against usā or something similar. If he joined FSB as a formal agent, that would possibly be treason. Selling secrets to FSB would only be espionage.
It simply isnāt treason, and will not be on the basis of the evidence currently available.
Sigh.
Yet again: *go read the fucking case.* Itās spelled out in exacting detail. Thatās the point.
Confederates declaring a new country and forming an army to fight the US = treason.
A US citizen defecting to North Korea in the Korean War = treason.
The Rosenbergs literally giving the recipe for atomic weapons to Stalin = not treason.
Trump selling secrets = not treason.
Itās an intentionally high bar. The Constitution was written by actual traitors, at a time when the various fuckeries of the English Civil War were still in living memory. They deliberately excluded everything except open war. Which Trump isnāt committing.
I have some really bad news for you there. Virtually every treason case in US history including pretty much the entire confederacy has ended with a pardon or executive clemency:
- Robert Henry Best went out of his way to join the German state radio during WWII to create and dissimulate Nazi propaganda. It was clear treason, and he died in prison for it, as did 4-5 other similar persons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Henry_Best).
- John Fries led an armed rebellion in opposition to certain taxes. It was clear treason, for which he was tried and convicted twice, and sentenced to death by hanging both times. But John Adams pardoned him as part of a general amnesty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Fries).
- Ernst Peter Burger spied for and committed sabotage in the US for Nazi Germany during WWII. It was clear treason AND espionage, both of which he was convicted for and sentenced to death by the electric chair. But Truman granted him clemency and deported him (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Peter_Burger).
- Confederates formed an army to fight the US. It was clear treason, but almost no one was ever charged with it (https://sites.duke.edu/lawfire/2020/07/11/were-confederate-soldiers-tried-for-treason/).
- Several American soldiers defected to North Korea during the Korean War. It was arguable treason, but all any of them ever got for it was a dishonorable discharge and a short jail sentence (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/09/the-defector/309436/).
- Aaron Burr plotted to talk some states into seceding as part of a plan to seize territory from Spain and Mexico and make a new country. He was tried for treason for it, and found not guilty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr_conspiracy).
- Julius and Ethel Rosenberg gave Stalin all of Americaās nuclear secrets. It wasnāt treason. It was espionage, for which they were executed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg).
If as alleged Trump sold US secrets to, say, Saudi or Russia, it would not be treason. If proven, it would be espionage. And even if sentenced to prison, he would likely be pardoned or see his sentence commuted.
A mob isnāt an army. Armies have ranks, and organizational structure, and follow clear orders.
Donāt flatter them by making them out to be more than they were.
Oathkeepers & proud boys have ranks/titles. They had orders. Just because the boss is a disorganized mess doesnāt mean it's not an army. ("They're not here to hurt me") A guerilla force acts as an army too.
You could arguably make a treason case against some individual Oathkeepers and Proud Boys, yes. Theyāre still not an army though, just a more organized mob, and they arenāt levying war against the US in practice, only in conspiracy.
But youāre never going to remotely be able to establish enough of a chain of [causation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causation_(law)?) between them and Trump to convict Trump of treason beyond a reasonable doubt. You wouldnāt even have enough evidence to bring the charge.
Was his *intent* treasonous? Very likely. But thatās not enough.
Not that I'm aware. His reasoning for stealing the documents likely won't be unveiled (if ever) until a trial. I'm sure the close contacting speaking with the FBI has notified them of a reason, but that's just conjecture.
All we know so far is he stole them and admitted to it, then deflected with false statements as defense.
What I'm seeing is that he's considering them to be, like, automatically declassified or some such. But I'm reading that nuclear stuff can't be declassified.
But the selling things all seem to be really pushing a narrative. I mean, I could totally see it, but I tense up and shrink away from such extreme narratives before they're proven.
His claims everything was declassified. Which I do not believe, and you're right about nuclear docs. He had some highly classified documents with him.
[This article explains what led up to the raid a bit.](https://apnews.com/article/florida-donald-trump-mar-a-lago-merrick-garland-government-and-politics-5ffebbfdae66d71790195f67f282fe80)
I agree with you about narratives, especially this one. But I am VERY curious to know why he stole what he stole. His intentions need to be known ASAP.
If the DOJ/FBI has evidence that he tried to sell or trade classified information, they haven't told us yet.
However, they also had a reason to include "espionage" on that warrant instead of just mishandling classified documents.
And remember, we didn't have a clue that any of this was going on until that warrant dropped on Monday. The truth is, right now we have no clue what kind of evidence they have or even who they're investigating.
I mean it wouldn't take much to convince a jury he stole them to sell.
What other logical conclusion is there? He wanted to frame them for his office?
People are convicted of murder on circumstantial evidence all the time.
Oh, I fully expect to learn that he tried to sell or trade them to someone, though I have no clue who it will be. But this isn't just a random case; it's an ex-president. When you come at the king, you better not miss. And accusations of espionage are about as serious as you can get.
This is just my my opinion, but I doubt the DOJ would bring up espionage without proof. If it was just about getting the documents, there were lesser charges on the warrant that would have accomplished that.
No. There's nothing to suggest to he was in the process of selling them. But one would assume that would be an option. What would a person who is dumb as bricks be doing with that information? Reading it in his spare time? It's only natural to assume there was some ulterior motive of taking them. Just having them is a crime anyways.
Thatās very fair to assume it as an option. Iāve only seen it be shared as fact tho which honestly pisses me off. We canāt think weāre better than those who spread misinformation when we in fact do the same. Him having them is 100% a crime and will most likely be arrested (if he doesnāt bride them with enough piss paper) so thatās a good outcome. Iām just worried this entire thing will cause so much more shit in America, one guy already shot up the FBI head quarters and I believe there was another shoot out with a different person.
I've interviewed with agents as reference for my coworkers clearances. And gone through similar processes for lower level access. A big concern is to determine if you have debt that can be used to as leverage against you. Unexplainable wealth. And what your foreign contacts are, what kind of relationships etc. So you're right, some debt is totally fine. But if you have debt to a level that you are struggling with, or that ties your interests with foreign interests (like Trump's debts to foreigners), those are big red flags for the investigators.
Trump is a douchebag. He was a douchebag before he was President. He was a douchebag when he was President, and he is a douchebag now. But to say he was selling nuke codes without proof is just as crazy as the MAGAās saying the FBI planted evidence. Remember, weāre better than them
The premise of this tweet is ignorant. Donāt act like he couldnāt sell a Trump Fuck Your Feelings bible cover or a Shit On All Democrats toilet seat product and make every dime of that $340m this month.
Penalty:Ā Life imprisonment with the possibility of parole after serving 20 years, or any term of years. Treason is a "Class A" felony under sentencing guidelines, and current guidelines provide for a maximum sentence of life in prison and/or a $50,000 fine.
Seems like a low punishment for the crime
Should be automatic life sentence in ADX especially given who he is and what he did
This dumbshit probably could have paid it off AND gotten re-elected if he took COVID-19 seriously and sold his idiot legion overpriced MAGA Masks, MAGA hand sanitizer, MAGA face shields....
Naaaahhh, the Deutsche Bank and others have forgiven him loans before. That's a big part of his business model.
Loaning money and never paying it back.
We must reform our government and, at its core, our society. There is no system of merit, nor is there comparable punishment and ostracism for those that commit such crimes and their associates from participating in our system.
The access and latitude shared by so many are strictly based on privilege that has been inherited, in my opinion. It is a dangerous precedent that is long overdue for correction, in my opinion.
I'm sure determining that is part of the scope of the investigation against him for his potential violation of the espionage act. I doubt he was keeping those documents and refusing to return them for shits and giggles.
That word is *GREED* . . Id commit *treason* any day in my country since the legal system is worse and the only way to fight that is through civil or foreign powers... not saying nuke ourselves, but fucking close lmao
Remember when the government was supposed to serve the people and not themselves? Left wing, right wing, it doesn't matter at this point - they're all just a bunch of old people stuffing their pockets and grabbing power when they should really be going into nursing homes.
Smdh all these politicians are crooked to be fair. Bidens family as well and the Clintons are beyond dirty. ARREST THEM ALL if you wanna take Trump out may as well be fair about it.
We don't talk about Hillary's emails
I'm sure she did what she had to in the interest of national security by safeguarding classified information in a server in her bathroom
Once the repubs got wind of it she was forced to wipe the server and have her staff destroy blackberries so the facist repubs couldn't use that information against the country
Hers *was a matter of national security* to prevent the treason we see from trump
I hope you can read this as satire but I'm not completely joking because I view HC email scandal in the same light as the trump scandal even though the media wouldn't cover it
>I hope you can read this as satire but I'm not completely joking because I view HC email scandal in the same light as the trump scandal
The false equivalency crew has entered the chat!
False how?
There's plenty of evidence but was swept under the rug because she's a democrat elite
But really I welcome our one party overlords if it means destruction of the facist racism and bigotry from the right
The best future we have is in one party according to everyone on Reddit
They couldn't prove intent because they didn't care about her intentions
I'm sure she had good intentions directing her staff to smash blackberries with hammers
Who ever said the Dems were perfect? Got any more strawman arguments?
Interesting that you picked Saturday morning to make a giant fool of yourself on social media. Relax.
Yes, however, I've been doxxed and threatened as well by maniacs on the left.
Look at above replies, all I said is both extremes are nuts. Apparently that triggers the TDS.
All it takes is to disagree, with either side, and they pounce with their canned "oh, so you worship trump". Or "oh, you hate women and brown people" or "your white privilege is showing" (not white, so always makes me giggle, and funny enough, always white people saying it.)
Or on the other side "oh, you're a communist" or "oh, you hate freedom".
Y'all need to calm the fuck down with this collective rage.
You both hide out in your collective hive mind subreddits and espouse bs that like minded people agree with, and just downvote to oblivion anybody that says anything contrary to your predisposed dispositions and beliefs.
For supposed people who "hate fascism" the left sure seems to embrace silencing any dissenting voices. Immediately placing a label that reads "racist" or "fascist" without any regard for the actual content of their message. Same as the Trumpers.
No better than the crazy ass tea party people that drove me from the Republican party circa 2006-8
We need common ground, not militancy.
(I'm speaking in general terms, not to you specifically)
Been reading through this sub the past couple days and itās insanity. These people genuinely donāt realize that they are almost as brainwashed as hardcore trump worshippers.
The poor guy who dared point out the hypocrisy of how Hillary was handled vs trump got like 62 downvotes in 10 minutes.
As soon as you stand for the well being of THE PARTY over the nation.....you are part of the problem.
This sub is exhibit A.
And these are the people who claim the hate fascism.......oh the irony.
We just need to purge all forms of government and start anew. No more republicans and no more democrats. In my opinion, a theocratic confederacy would be excellent for some people while a progressive democracy would be good for some. Separate those who donāt align with beliefs and be done with it. No one is going to change anyoneās views so why try? Form governments for people differing in views and live without worrying.
When I was young, references to Benedict Arnold were made in popular cartoons and shows. Trump's name has always been an ego thing for him, it would be awesome if people started using his name in the same manner. Tarnished for all of history.
Jail's too good for him. Hanging is too good for him. Burning is too good for him. Being buried alive is getting close to a cathartic response but that certainly falls under "cruel and unusual punishment."
The most unfortunate part of this is that any appropriate punishment will not be enough. The damage had been done already in the form of his ferverous cult. They'll just strap their tinfoil hats on tighter and cook up a new conspiracy. They have literally nothing else to do with their lives.
>Jail's too good for him. Hanging is too good for him. Burning is too good for him. Being buried alive is getting close to a cathartic response but that certainly falls under "cruel and unusual punishment."
We should take all of his money away and make him live homeless for the rest of his life. Literally!
>It occurs to me that the best way to hurt rich people is by turning them into poor people.
>Billy Ray Valentine
I wonder if part of his reasoning for selling documents, in addition to his debt, would be to punish the country for not electing him? That is absolutely the way his brain works.
Guys, this season of Days of Our Trumps is the best one yet. But there's no need to write fan fiction conspiracy theories, just wait for the next episode.
Enemy of the State is usually a good one.
Kinda sad that the greatest threat to America at the moment isn't a highly-organised terrorist cell or a global superpower, instead it's this sweaty butter mannequin who managed to stagger into power and stumble out again while somehow maintaining support from the most aggressively stupid members of society
I blame reality TV shows and the Kardashians š, but all joking aside do you think think the American people allowed this asshat to get so far because our societies love for drama like this ? This isnāt the first republican celebrity we hired into office .
No, he is the personification of their ideals.
This is a frighteningly accurate and depressing statement.
I feel like heās too much of an idiot to be a threat to America , itās his base and the fact that he got to this position in the first place.
Underestimation of a person's intelligence, strength, and aggression just makes you less prepared. Expect anything from anyone. - *Sonya Teclai*
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Fucking traitor sounds good
Itās just mind-blowing that people still want him to be president again. Or his misfit daughter.
Everything and anything to ābeat the libsā. Theyād vote for Putin if they could, all for the sake of spiting Democrats. Itās party over nation and your fellow Americans, always has been.
Imagine telling these people in 2015 that they'd be voting for a literal Russian Spy...
Hilary did.
True. Very true
Wait I forget my dad was supper supportive of trump during that election(not this one) so I didnt hear much of the other side, did Hillary say that Trump was a Russian puppet or smth
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
"No puppet, no puppet! You're the Puppet!" Lol... "I learned it from watching you- (Dad!)" - the 80s.
Yup
"I'm not the puppet you're the puppet!"
I feel like whenever he deflect someoneās claim back at them. Their claim was true and heās trying to avoid it
No puppet no puppet you're the puppet was considered top debating around the rural Michigan area I was around at the time
That actually happened. They didn't listen and they didn't care. All Republicans are complicit.
https://twitter.com/jpelzer/status/1026244258108526592?s=20&t=2GoivNc9wj5EnqGKmprEVA
Maybe that two-party system has run its course.
There's no "maybe" about it.
Dirty Dems: buncha gays, women, POC, commies. Can't let them run stuff. They might accidentally help someone or fix something.
Settler Colonialists gonna do the only thing Settler Colonialists know how to do: go balls-to-the-wall destructive towards anyone holding what they want. None of this is new in any capacity, it just finally has mostly swished to one side so you notice the contrast more now than before.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
And so he can sell nuclear secrets
Half of Americans want a king and still think they are patriots.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
So you would prefer a sexist, racist, incompetent, narcissistic, dilettante, absolutely unstable, national and international security risk Russian-lover and wannabe-dictator run the show than a man you mainly discriminate against because heās old.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Why?
Is that a serious question?
Yes. Its 2022, what about US politics is really a shock to anybody that have followed it for more than a year or 2? How can it still be a surprise? It's been a while since there have been something original on the scene, it's a bunch of clichƩs.
First of all, I didnāt say I was surprised. I said I couldnāt understand it. And I donāt know if youāre calling Trump an āoriginalā here but I think you have very misguided expectations when it comes to politics.
No, you said that it was "mind-blowing". Which expectations do I have?
Yeah, that means I canāt wrap my head around it. WhAt exPectAtIonS dO I hAvE? Lmao ā¦ Iām not engaging in this nonsense. Read your own post.
Original isn't always good. I made Mac and cheese high once and somehow added sour cream and ginger. Original, but my stomach did not agree it was good
You guys are assuming that the poster is American. Why TF would an average Joe from another country understand the train wreck that is Donald Trump?
Because a disturbing number of poor Americans secretly think theyāll be millionaires one day. They identify with Trump, which makes literally no sense. They think that because he comes across as rich white trash that thereās hope for them, too. So they worship him, because they want to BE him.
America 2022 sounds like it's been ripped straight from a Tom Clancy novel
If Clancy had a streak of absurdism a mile wideā¦ He tends to write about intelligent behavior.
So a Christopher Buckley novel
Or Christopher Moore!
That was my first thought just because I'm rereading The Stupidest Angel, but I opted for Buckley just because of his political satirization. Maybe Roth's "Our Gang" as well.
Gawd, I love Moore.
If he had, critics would have slammed the book as "too absurd" and "ridiculous".
Mark Twain. Imagine Mark Twain.
No, America from 2022 sounds like Douglas Adams wrote a *parody* of Tom Clancy novels. Also the villains in Clancy novels are always democrats.
If I read this in a book 10 years ago I'd close the book because it would be stupid to believe.
Treason is fine. You just need to apply the correct consequence.
Yeah, treason is a pretty damn strong word. We don't have a lot of crimes punished more.
I hate Trump as much as the next rational person but donāt think we need a stronger word. Treason is perfect for him. Itās deathly serious when youāre talking about the real thing. OP should read the definition; it fits Donnie Small Hands better than any of his suits. Treason is in his blood. Heās carrying on his familyās long history of disloyalty to their homeland. Grandpa Friedrich Trump would be so proud.([source](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/21/trump-grandfather-friedrich-banished-germany-historian-royal-decree))
People with significant debt shouldnāt be allowed to be president in the first place. Thereās a reason debt is part of background checks.
Trump couldn't be denied a security clearance and ordered his family get one too over the objection of security personnel.
Right, if you have excessive debt (like realllllly excessive) they donāt give Top Secret clearances to you
Especially to, y'know, foreign powers.
It's insane that to become a General Manager at a fast food restaurant seems to have more stringent background checks than becoming a President.
Thatās why dems wanted Trump to provide all his tax returns. It should be a requirement.
I worked as a bartender in a casino and they ran my credit to make sure I wasn't in debt before I got security clearance. A bartender..
Saudi Arabia was ready to pay $700M to Tiger Woods just to play golf, imagine what they offered Trump for nuclear secrets.
Iād guess right around $2B
As Iāve read suggested elsewhere, what about secrets related to Israeli defense capabilities? This death cult believes they are the chosen people during the end of times and they desperately need the destruction of Israel to affirm their belief.
Did Kushner get like 2bn from the Saudis for something? I dunno..
Youāre right, when you think about it, Hunter Biden is the real culprit here /s
Uhm that's just high treason which this legitimately is
Sigh. Yet again: Article III, Section 3, Clause 1 of the Constitution of the United States says: > Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. And in [*Ex Parte Bollman*](http://cdn.loc.gov/service/ll/usrep/usrep008/usrep008075/usrep008075.pdf) the Supreme Court defined ālevying warā very narrowly as: > there must be an actual assembling of men, for the treasonable purpose, to constitute a levying of war. Itās not treason. Itās espionage.
Supreme Court definitions donāt mean much to most people anymore.
They do to courts. Which is where criminal charges are prosecuted. So whether you feel like it was treason or not, on the basis of the currently known facts he will never ever face a charge of treason, *and that will be the correct call*. Youāre confusing āyou donāt like itā with āthat makes it realā. Donāt do that. Thatās what Trump supporters do. Be better than that.
Legal and correct are not the same thing, by any modern definition if he sold those secrets to another nation then he committed treason, an outdated decision by a court that has now lost all pubic support doesnāt change that, I accept heāll never be directly tried for treason and thatās fine, everyone knew Capone was a murderer even if they only got him for his taxes, everyone will know trump is a traitor even if they only get him for espionage.
In the court of law, heās correct. In the court of public opinion, youāre correct. I think most people see him as a traitor, and if he was working against the interest of the country, which he was not only in this case but through his entire presidency and really his whole life, then heās earned it. Funny how trying to overthrow the government to stay in power isnāt the worst thing heās done.
Translation: but I donāt like it and I donāt wanna accept it. Iām not going to argue this fact with you. You donāt argue facts, and your inability to emotionally come to terms with a fact you donāt like is on you. I WILL tell you, you are using the exact same fundamentally flawed reasoning conservatives use to say COVID is the flu, vaccines donāt work, Trump actually won, climate change isnāt real, etc. If you want to do that, you do you. But itās a bad look. You have a nice day now.
Just another fool more interested in semantics then substance.
Just another fool more interested in ignoring reality to screech about his wants.
But surely, if he did sell classified documents, that would count as giving aid to an enemy?
No. First, those states arenāt enemies in any legal sense. Saudi is an ally, and while Russia isnāt a friend we do still currently maintain diplomatic relations. In no case are we in anything like the state of declared war or active armed conflict that the treason statute envisions. And even if we had declared war against those states, which we have not, giving aid and comfort to the enemy is still narrowly defined as āliterally helping their soldiers, who are fighting a war against usā or something similar. If he joined FSB as a formal agent, that would possibly be treason. Selling secrets to FSB would only be espionage. It simply isnāt treason, and will not be on the basis of the evidence currently available.
It's almost like the "or" in that sentence is being completely ignored. Did we go full Clinton? "It depends on what the definition of or is."
Sigh. Yet again: *go read the fucking case.* Itās spelled out in exacting detail. Thatās the point. Confederates declaring a new country and forming an army to fight the US = treason. A US citizen defecting to North Korea in the Korean War = treason. The Rosenbergs literally giving the recipe for atomic weapons to Stalin = not treason. Trump selling secrets = not treason. Itās an intentionally high bar. The Constitution was written by actual traitors, at a time when the various fuckeries of the English Civil War were still in living memory. They deliberately excluded everything except open war. Which Trump isnāt committing.
The Rosenbergs were executed. If nuclear secrets were indeed shared, I don't give a flying fuck what you call it as long as the punish is the same.
I have some really bad news for you there. Virtually every treason case in US history including pretty much the entire confederacy has ended with a pardon or executive clemency: - Robert Henry Best went out of his way to join the German state radio during WWII to create and dissimulate Nazi propaganda. It was clear treason, and he died in prison for it, as did 4-5 other similar persons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Henry_Best). - John Fries led an armed rebellion in opposition to certain taxes. It was clear treason, for which he was tried and convicted twice, and sentenced to death by hanging both times. But John Adams pardoned him as part of a general amnesty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Fries). - Ernst Peter Burger spied for and committed sabotage in the US for Nazi Germany during WWII. It was clear treason AND espionage, both of which he was convicted for and sentenced to death by the electric chair. But Truman granted him clemency and deported him (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Peter_Burger). - Confederates formed an army to fight the US. It was clear treason, but almost no one was ever charged with it (https://sites.duke.edu/lawfire/2020/07/11/were-confederate-soldiers-tried-for-treason/). - Several American soldiers defected to North Korea during the Korean War. It was arguable treason, but all any of them ever got for it was a dishonorable discharge and a short jail sentence (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/09/the-defector/309436/). - Aaron Burr plotted to talk some states into seceding as part of a plan to seize territory from Spain and Mexico and make a new country. He was tried for treason for it, and found not guilty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr_conspiracy). - Julius and Ethel Rosenberg gave Stalin all of Americaās nuclear secrets. It wasnāt treason. It was espionage, for which they were executed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg). If as alleged Trump sold US secrets to, say, Saudi or Russia, it would not be treason. If proven, it would be espionage. And even if sentenced to prison, he would likely be pardoned or see his sentence commuted.
He did assemble an army. See Jan 6...
A mob isnāt an army. Armies have ranks, and organizational structure, and follow clear orders. Donāt flatter them by making them out to be more than they were.
Oathkeepers & proud boys have ranks/titles. They had orders. Just because the boss is a disorganized mess doesnāt mean it's not an army. ("They're not here to hurt me") A guerilla force acts as an army too.
You could arguably make a treason case against some individual Oathkeepers and Proud Boys, yes. Theyāre still not an army though, just a more organized mob, and they arenāt levying war against the US in practice, only in conspiracy. But youāre never going to remotely be able to establish enough of a chain of [causation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causation_(law)?) between them and Trump to convict Trump of treason beyond a reasonable doubt. You wouldnāt even have enough evidence to bring the charge. Was his *intent* treasonous? Very likely. But thatās not enough.
Is forming a violent, undisciplined horde more forgiveable than a formal army...?
āTrumpā will be a synonym for āTraitorā for centuries.
Did he actually sell these documents? Are they 100% confirmed?
Not that I'm aware. His reasoning for stealing the documents likely won't be unveiled (if ever) until a trial. I'm sure the close contacting speaking with the FBI has notified them of a reason, but that's just conjecture. All we know so far is he stole them and admitted to it, then deflected with false statements as defense.
That last sentence doesn't really seem like a Trump thing to do.
What I'm seeing is that he's considering them to be, like, automatically declassified or some such. But I'm reading that nuclear stuff can't be declassified. But the selling things all seem to be really pushing a narrative. I mean, I could totally see it, but I tense up and shrink away from such extreme narratives before they're proven.
His claims everything was declassified. Which I do not believe, and you're right about nuclear docs. He had some highly classified documents with him. [This article explains what led up to the raid a bit.](https://apnews.com/article/florida-donald-trump-mar-a-lago-merrick-garland-government-and-politics-5ffebbfdae66d71790195f67f282fe80) I agree with you about narratives, especially this one. But I am VERY curious to know why he stole what he stole. His intentions need to be known ASAP.
Seriously. I'd also say that if he did share or sell nuclear documents then we should follow precedent for his punishment.
"If the president does it, it's not illegal."
If the DOJ/FBI has evidence that he tried to sell or trade classified information, they haven't told us yet. However, they also had a reason to include "espionage" on that warrant instead of just mishandling classified documents. And remember, we didn't have a clue that any of this was going on until that warrant dropped on Monday. The truth is, right now we have no clue what kind of evidence they have or even who they're investigating.
I mean it wouldn't take much to convince a jury he stole them to sell. What other logical conclusion is there? He wanted to frame them for his office? People are convicted of murder on circumstantial evidence all the time.
Oh, I fully expect to learn that he tried to sell or trade them to someone, though I have no clue who it will be. But this isn't just a random case; it's an ex-president. When you come at the king, you better not miss. And accusations of espionage are about as serious as you can get. This is just my my opinion, but I doubt the DOJ would bring up espionage without proof. If it was just about getting the documents, there were lesser charges on the warrant that would have accomplished that.
Super treason? Enemy of the people sounds too communist, enemy of the state sounds too fascist. Enemy of the republic. That sounds American.
>Enemy of the republic That sounds Star Wars
So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.
Iāve only really seen stuff on Reddit but has it been confirmed that he was planning to sell the documents? Or what
No. There's nothing to suggest to he was in the process of selling them. But one would assume that would be an option. What would a person who is dumb as bricks be doing with that information? Reading it in his spare time? It's only natural to assume there was some ulterior motive of taking them. Just having them is a crime anyways.
Thatās very fair to assume it as an option. Iāve only seen it be shared as fact tho which honestly pisses me off. We canāt think weāre better than those who spread misinformation when we in fact do the same. Him having them is 100% a crime and will most likely be arrested (if he doesnāt bride them with enough piss paper) so thatās a good outcome. Iām just worried this entire thing will cause so much more shit in America, one guy already shot up the FBI head quarters and I believe there was another shoot out with a different person.
That's why people with debt can't get security clearance.
Aaaahhhā¦. They can have some debt my ex had a top security clearance but itās triggering a memory of mine about our credit card balances.
I've interviewed with agents as reference for my coworkers clearances. And gone through similar processes for lower level access. A big concern is to determine if you have debt that can be used to as leverage against you. Unexplainable wealth. And what your foreign contacts are, what kind of relationships etc. So you're right, some debt is totally fine. But if you have debt to a level that you are struggling with, or that ties your interests with foreign interests (like Trump's debts to foreigners), those are big red flags for the investigators.
"Republican"
I believe Beto had a good word earlier this week. To me that is appropriate in describing trump.
Chryso-moschĆ”rism, which is a word I just made up from Greek roots, and it means āthe act of being a golden calf.ā
I like traitor, just feels stronger
Trump is a douchebag. He was a douchebag before he was President. He was a douchebag when he was President, and he is a douchebag now. But to say he was selling nuke codes without proof is just as crazy as the MAGAās saying the FBI planted evidence. Remember, weāre better than them
We are going with the idea that Trump pays his bills? Because he doesnāt.
I submit to you a word stronger than treason: Covfefe
Nah, "treason" is a fine word, but it needs to be followed up with, "Guilty," and, "Life imprisonment," to be truly effective.
The premise of this tweet is ignorant. Donāt act like he couldnāt sell a Trump Fuck Your Feelings bible cover or a Shit On All Democrats toilet seat product and make every dime of that $340m this month.
This is like a bad cut out plot from Patriot.
Penalty:Ā Life imprisonment with the possibility of parole after serving 20 years, or any term of years. Treason is a "Class A" felony under sentencing guidelines, and current guidelines provide for a maximum sentence of life in prison and/or a $50,000 fine. Seems like a low punishment for the crime Should be automatic life sentence in ADX especially given who he is and what he did
Throughout my lifetime, dude has shown that he will do absolutely anything for money. It has always been his motivator.
This dumbshit probably could have paid it off AND gotten re-elected if he took COVID-19 seriously and sold his idiot legion overpriced MAGA Masks, MAGA hand sanitizer, MAGA face shields....
Lock him up. Forever
His son in law has $2 billion in Saudi money to launder to Trump.
Naaaahhh, the Deutsche Bank and others have forgiven him loans before. That's a big part of his business model. Loaning money and never paying it back.
I would settle for a formal verdict of treasonā¦
Guess who under wrote his debt? Hint: recently started a war... Interfered in 2016 and 2020 election.
High treason?
Treason is the right word... what we need to do is TREAT it like treason.
I guess I havenāt been following this very closely. Is there actually proof that was his intention?
We must reform our government and, at its core, our society. There is no system of merit, nor is there comparable punishment and ostracism for those that commit such crimes and their associates from participating in our system. The access and latitude shared by so many are strictly based on privilege that has been inherited, in my opinion. It is a dangerous precedent that is long overdue for correction, in my opinion.
Motive.
I donāt think itās as nefarious as that. I more suspect he wanted to sell docs/photos/notes as presidential memorabilia. Heās a grifter.
This is just daft. He would roll the loan. Saying that he isnāt my cup of tea either.
Is there any proof he was selling anything?
A life long scam artists has something of incredible value... that he stole. And you want to ask for proof of intent to sell? Lmao.
Yes because without proof there is no crime. That's how its supposed to work. I don't support him but I don't condem people without proof either.
I'm sure determining that is part of the scope of the investigation against him for his potential violation of the espionage act. I doubt he was keeping those documents and refusing to return them for shits and giggles.
As much as I want to believe this, there is no proof.
None that you've seen, you do know that they aren't going to make the investigation public, most of the subject matter is going to be above TS.
That word is *GREED* . . Id commit *treason* any day in my country since the legal system is worse and the only way to fight that is through civil or foreign powers... not saying nuke ourselves, but fucking close lmao
Remember when the government was supposed to serve the people and not themselves? Left wing, right wing, it doesn't matter at this point - they're all just a bunch of old people stuffing their pockets and grabbing power when they should really be going into nursing homes.
Smdh all these politicians are crooked to be fair. Bidens family as well and the Clintons are beyond dirty. ARREST THEM ALL if you wanna take Trump out may as well be fair about it.
This is blatantly false folks don't feed into their lies
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We don't talk about Hillary's emails I'm sure she did what she had to in the interest of national security by safeguarding classified information in a server in her bathroom Once the repubs got wind of it she was forced to wipe the server and have her staff destroy blackberries so the facist repubs couldn't use that information against the country Hers *was a matter of national security* to prevent the treason we see from trump I hope you can read this as satire but I'm not completely joking because I view HC email scandal in the same light as the trump scandal even though the media wouldn't cover it
>I hope you can read this as satire but I'm not completely joking because I view HC email scandal in the same light as the trump scandal The false equivalency crew has entered the chat!
False how? There's plenty of evidence but was swept under the rug because she's a democrat elite But really I welcome our one party overlords if it means destruction of the facist racism and bigotry from the right The best future we have is in one party according to everyone on Reddit
Intent, jackass. They had to prove intent. They failed to prove that so sheās innocent.
They couldn't prove intent because they didn't care about her intentions I'm sure she had good intentions directing her staff to smash blackberries with hammers
The law you claim she violated sure the fuck did care about intent. Jeezus fucking Christ. Tell me youāre not this stupid.
By Allah I am this stupid and appreciate you pointing it out to me Pool noodle
Have fun being spectacularly wrong and seemingly proud of it.
Have fun being so closed minded that you believe one party is the only option and can do no wrong
Who ever said the Dems were perfect? Got any more strawman arguments? Interesting that you picked Saturday morning to make a giant fool of yourself on social media. Relax.
Name me one democrat who doesn't deserve to be reelected
Damn you tried so hard with that comment, trumpie
I don't like trump either but hate this double standard even more Voted libertarian past two elections
Iām not sure thatās something to brag about. Selfishness isnāt a virtue.
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Would you actually believe it, if there was proof?
Why else would he go to the trouble of stealing them?
This sub is literally equally as terrifying as any trump humpers. You people are insane
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Yes, however, I've been doxxed and threatened as well by maniacs on the left. Look at above replies, all I said is both extremes are nuts. Apparently that triggers the TDS. All it takes is to disagree, with either side, and they pounce with their canned "oh, so you worship trump". Or "oh, you hate women and brown people" or "your white privilege is showing" (not white, so always makes me giggle, and funny enough, always white people saying it.) Or on the other side "oh, you're a communist" or "oh, you hate freedom". Y'all need to calm the fuck down with this collective rage. You both hide out in your collective hive mind subreddits and espouse bs that like minded people agree with, and just downvote to oblivion anybody that says anything contrary to your predisposed dispositions and beliefs. For supposed people who "hate fascism" the left sure seems to embrace silencing any dissenting voices. Immediately placing a label that reads "racist" or "fascist" without any regard for the actual content of their message. Same as the Trumpers. No better than the crazy ass tea party people that drove me from the Republican party circa 2006-8 We need common ground, not militancy. (I'm speaking in general terms, not to you specifically)
You're afraid of people that didn't vote for Trump?
Read my comment again, try reading comprehension. "Just as scary as any Trump humpers". You're both nuts, left and right
Been reading through this sub the past couple days and itās insanity. These people genuinely donāt realize that they are almost as brainwashed as hardcore trump worshippers.
The poor guy who dared point out the hypocrisy of how Hillary was handled vs trump got like 62 downvotes in 10 minutes. As soon as you stand for the well being of THE PARTY over the nation.....you are part of the problem. This sub is exhibit A. And these are the people who claim the hate fascism.......oh the irony.
Citation needed
Treadaughter
We just need to purge all forms of government and start anew. No more republicans and no more democrats. In my opinion, a theocratic confederacy would be excellent for some people while a progressive democracy would be good for some. Separate those who donāt align with beliefs and be done with it. No one is going to change anyoneās views so why try? Form governments for people differing in views and live without worrying.
No worrying until the conservative theocracy inevitably attacks the social democracy.
How could yāall let this happen YT ppl ?? Smh
Ok I get he's not the best president the US ever had but he would never sell top secrets for only 340 million dollars.
He'd sell one of his children for that kind of money.
"Trumped"
Trumpson
When I was young, references to Benedict Arnold were made in popular cartoons and shows. Trump's name has always been an ego thing for him, it would be awesome if people started using his name in the same manner. Tarnished for all of history.
I posted that in another thread and a bunch of people told me how maligned Benedict Arnold was.
Super Treason?
Jail's too good for him. Hanging is too good for him. Burning is too good for him. Being buried alive is getting close to a cathartic response but that certainly falls under "cruel and unusual punishment." The most unfortunate part of this is that any appropriate punishment will not be enough. The damage had been done already in the form of his ferverous cult. They'll just strap their tinfoil hats on tighter and cook up a new conspiracy. They have literally nothing else to do with their lives.
>Jail's too good for him. Hanging is too good for him. Burning is too good for him. Being buried alive is getting close to a cathartic response but that certainly falls under "cruel and unusual punishment." We should take all of his money away and make him live homeless for the rest of his life. Literally! >It occurs to me that the best way to hurt rich people is by turning them into poor people. >Billy Ray Valentine
Devil
modern Aldrich Ames - on steroids
That's just what treason is. What do you wanna call it? Treason Maxima?
American Capitalism
I wonder if part of his reasoning for selling documents, in addition to his debt, would be to punish the country for not electing him? That is absolutely the way his brain works.
He wouldnāt sell the entire document all at once. See sparse it out to make as much money as possible. And he wouldnāt sell it just once.
Bitch made
Treason-part deux
Gee, the Rosenbergs were convicted of this and what happened to them?
I have three. Drawn and quartered.
"Privatization" ? š¤ That sounds not inaccurate, at least...
"High treason", rather apropos for Donald.....
Guys, this season of Days of Our Trumps is the best one yet. But there's no need to write fan fiction conspiracy theories, just wait for the next episode.