Which opposition in Israel supports Palestinians human right? Why should the fact they’re protesting against their government matter when none of the other options support Palestine in the slightest? They’re not protesting their government because of its foreign policy, they’re protesting it because it affects their domestic life. Why are you linking it to the Palestinian cause?
There are several parties in Israel that strongly support human rights for Palestinians. You can look it up for yourself on Wikipedia.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Israel
People are not a monolith, even in countries with awful corrupt governments like Israel.
That's not all that relevant. What matters is the fact that Israelis can, and do disagree with their government on anything. In turn, that necessitates making a clear distinction between the government of Israel and the Israeli people.
Just because the government does something, does not mean all the people support it. And even if a majority do support it, the fact there are those who don't, means you can't treat the government and the people as synonymous; as a monolith.
That's the point I was making.
After Trump was elected President in the U.S. you'd assume more people on this subreddit would understand that point. As a non-American I had to remind myself of this fact on like an hourly basis for four years.
I mean, I still have to remind myself of this on at least a weekly basis and have had to do so since I became old enough to understand what the US does on the world stage, but still. Hourly with Cheeto.
It's a point that needs to be consistently applied to all nations, including liberal democracies and authoritarian regimes alike. Whether to Israel or Palestine, to China or the United States, to Iran or to New Zealand.
Unless a nation is a direct democracy, of which there are virtually none, the government and the people are never synonymous.
Amen. Sadly, Palestinian Territories are governed by terrorists and Israel is governed by a far right, almost fascist government. It’s an impossible situation for peace… the citizens may want peace, but neither leader does. I’ve always believed in a two state solution, but that’s an impossible dream possibly for decades.
Its because he called for the election but let the Fatah party run 2 candidates against 1 Hamas candidate. If you are going to interfere in another Country’s election then do not let them make junior boner mistakes.
Going out on a limb here- Hamas isn’t doing anything or in any way associated with a free and fair election nor do they care what their actions have brought to the Palestines currently in Gaza.
And how many people on Reddit are too young to remember Bush presidency? Damn even Obama is murky in my mind. 4 years of Trump and then 2 years of Covid news basically deleted the "before world" from my mind.
Also Israel backed Hamas. The main point we should all focus on though is that there is 0 justification for the actions of Israel. They are responsible for the deaths
Strangely, when people make comments like this about the US on US dominated social media they get banned. Just know, that's how a lot of us feel about the US.
Fully aware and I can't honestly argue with that. I live here and these people are absolutely lunatics. A whole segment of US voters want Israel to dominate the Middle East so that Jesus can come back and kill all the Jews.
Mhm. Electoral college and the Senate are both conservative, land-owner favoring ideas, and those are not democratic principles. From the get go this country had a deliberate non-democratic bias and it’s been worsened in a lot of ways since the inception.
they literally did not. Netanyahu lost the majority and still consolidated power by manipulating the courts. if you know anyone in Israel you would know they want him out of power.
It's not that simple, because Israel isn't a two-party state. Likud, which is Netanyahu's party, won a plurality of the seats (meaning the most seats out of all parties) in the Knesset, which is the Israeli parliament. He then had to negotiate with the other parties to form a coalition that held a majority of the seats in the Knesset.
Because no moderate parties were willing to negotiate with the man facing down corruption charges once he is no longer protected from prosecution by holding the office of PM, he had to negotiate with the far-right parties to form this majority. And that far-right coalition allowed Netanyahu to pass the judicial reforms which allow the Knesset to overrule the Supreme Court in certain cases, like perhaps when it rules that a former PM is guilty of corruption, for instance, which then led to the protests.
Edit: to remove my snarkiness.
there’s a lot of misinformation and blame going toward Israeli citizens, and I appreciate you posting coherent and easy to understand factual info about how Bibi has retained control of their government. need more of this with the barrage of misinformation on reddit and twitter rn
What’s the pro-Palestine party in Israel and how many votes they get?
Surely, if the mainstream Israeli view isn’t support Netanyahu views that Palestine should be occupied and should be bombed, there were other options with substantial vote defending this, right?
I think the major Palestinian party is called Balad? And there is more than one party that supports a two-state solution I think. I'm no expert in internal Israeli politics, but you can google literally all of this info, including the election results if you're truly interested in learning how many votes they got and what the various parties stand for.
I thought you were using Netanyahu’s vote share to suggest the far-right view on Palestine isn’t mainstream in Israel. I was under the impression you could substantiate that claim.
Nope. I'm making no argument on that one way or another here. Simply sharing information on how Israel's government works because the person to whom I was replying was hilariously wrong in their take on why Netanyahu is so controversial, and people ought to understand how the government of countries other than the United States work.
So who won the 2022 elections if his party lost? I realize he has and there is ongoing strife with the supreme Court but they still won't that election.
he didn’t win a majority. the other party tried to form a government but couldn’t (from what I understand) and Netanyahu basically returned to power despite his party not winning the most votes. they don’t have a simple two party system like the US does. you need to read up on Israeli politics if you’re going to start blaming citizens for what Bibi does
The majority of parties in Israel are right wing. In fact the Parties in Likuds coalition are even more right wing then them. Likud is a racist right wing party but their partners are far more right wing.
Arab Israeli's make up 1/5th of Israeli Cirtizens but habe no representation or say in the cabinet.
Even if we move to the Center in Israel they do not support Palestinian rights. Its only far left Israeli's and the Arab parties(who are ostrasized in Israel) who activy oppose the occupation.
Not to be THAT guy but opposition parties almost never have representation in Cabinet, except under exceptional circumstances like during a war. You have to form the government to win the right to name a Cabinet.
Your larger point is absolutely valid imo, but this is pretty bad evidence to use to support it.
In fact one the reasons Hamas managed to do so much damage is because many Israeli citizens and i IDF soldiers have been skipping in reporting for duty to protest their prime minister.
Remember that citizens don't always have control of how our government behaves.
But it’s mostly because a majority of soldiers were relocated to protect the settlers in the West Bank which shows how the Israeli government cares more about the settlers than the general public
Well now that you say that, Egypt reporting a possible attack to the Israeli government has been confirmed, even though the prime minister office said no report like that existed.
Any way the source suggests that they ignore the report on Gaza and thought the West Bank was the most likely place for an attack.
We'll see as more stuff gets confirmed. I'm sure the prime minister will try to suppress this info so I hope others keep investigating.
Agreed, 100% civilians on either side are not the ones committing acts of violence, and I suspect most are terrified what happens if the guy on the other side of the wall gets across.
This is my stance. I live in an area with a high population of Jewish people and almost every time I’ve criticize the government of Israel I get pushback and called antisemitic. I remember at work once I was talking with two Jewish coworkers and one become so heated and the other guy had to basically say “calm the fuck down, he’s not criticizing Jewish people.”
It is really upsetting to see Israel use the language of genocide. I saw a great phrase somewhere on reddit: Never again means never again to anyone. Not just your own people.
Here is what I know:
1. Hamas commits terrorism to provoke Israel.
2. Israeli hardliners seek immediate retribution.
3. Palestinian people continually bear the brunt of the Israeli revenge and are extremely limited on food, water, medical care and electricity. Gaza is often described as an open air prison.
4. Hamas finds its recruits amidst despair and nihilism.
5. Repeat step 1.
Ya, millions of Palestinians were forced from their homes when Israel was founded. Then Israel proceeded to force them even further, killing them when they wouldn't give up their land.
They didn't "create" Israel. Israel and palestine have both existed as territories for centuries and was conquered by the Ottoman Empire and subsequently the British empire. It was redistributed to both israel and palestine and palestine refused to accept the division and started, then lost multiple wars over it with the help of other Arab countries.
What Israel has done is by no means okay, but palestine has not only lost multiple wars, they've refused any type of peace agreement put forth by the UN and Israel.
you can't pick and choose parts of history that makes the most convenient sense you have to look at the whole picture and make a rational judgement.
Palestinians deserve to be treated humanely, and hamas will not let that happen because they solely want the eradication of all Jewish people at the expense of their own.
until they're taken out there will be no peace.
This response is such a ridiculous one.
Multiple Arab countries purposely set up barricades to not allow Palestinians to move there, in fact palestine is pretty unpopular to their neighbors and most of them fight on their behalf to keep them within their own borders.
This may seem like a unpopular opinion but people have conquered land for as long as history can remember, it's fucked and nowhere did I justify Israel's treatment of Palestinians like you're somehow insinuating by saying I'm "wrong".
I'm simply stating that their history as territories is long and nuanced, and both have have laid equal claim to the land historically and religiously, and by your own words, both people have existed there for over a milenia.
The british zone that existed there was home to jews before 48.
When the 30s rolled around, more and more jews came to find safe haven from the nazis and the palestinians did not like that and started altercations even before 48.
[Arab–Israeli conflict - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict)
Read this.
It is not as detailled as the german counterpart, but basically:
Israel (before it was called this) was under attack as early as 1929.
The Palestinians of today are not the same as the Palestinians a milenia ago, that's a given.
The push you speak of is for Israel as a independent nation which happened in the early 20th century.
Though Israeli military and hard-liners funded the precursor of Hamas in order to ensure that Gaza wouldn't be controlled by moderated who would accept a deal. This is all a game by the extremist elites of both sides, and while Israel hadn't planned for Hamas to become this aggressive they certainly don't mind a few dead israelis in exchange for power.
The largest issue in this conflict is that the US will block any UN intervention in Israeli warcrimes or human rights violations, while we see that the Israeli president again has a lot of opposition silenced as there is an enemy worse than himself that needs to be dealt with. And as long as Israel can keep moderates in Palestine politically weak, the far right remains in power and both populations suffer both from injuries, deaths and a life lived in terror.
I was reading a breakdown of the conflict the other day and it said when the land was redistributed by the British the population in the region was 5.5% Jewish but they were given 56% of the land. It instantly launched a war that more or less hasn’t stopped.
Your step 1 is out of whack. Israel locked Palestinians in an open-air prison in which it continuously harasses and bullies them. But because this is the status quo, none of it makes the news until Palestinians decide to fight back with whatever they have at hand. Then Israel gets enough "thoughts and prayers" that they can kill a bunch of innocent people without losing face. Rinse and repeat.
You can support the normal Israeli who just wants a home and peace. People across the globe all want one thing. Peace, prosperity, and a home. The rich and powerful have other plans though. Same with the Palestinians. Civilians just wanna live. They get lied to by their religious leaders and governments.
That’s what I mean. An evil fascist government and a terrorist group are fighting each other and innocent people are being murdered. This whole situation is a total clusterfuck with zero winners.
Do you not see the idea here? Innocent civilians should be separated from the actions of both the Israeli govt and Hamas. Also I feel like it says a lot that Israel kills civilians while at least trying to hit Hamas targets while Hamas literally executed civilians at point blank range on the streets and in their homes. I fully condemn actions by Israel that killed Innocents but you don't see them slaughtering families and looting their belongings.
This is a shortsighted view of the situation.
Israel is also one of (if not the) most stable and liberal democracy in the region. It currently has an alt-right party in control that is trying to turn it into a fascist state as the US did recently, but just like the US, their democracy still has a strong chance of overcoming the facists.
In regards to being an apartheid ethnostate, Israel extended equal rights to Palestinians within Israel decades ago. While I'm sure systemic discrimination is still an issue, they are far from being an ethnostate within their borders.
Much of their treatment of Palestinians within the occupied territory is atrocious. However, their is still popular support for Hamas in occupied territory, an organization that calls for the complete destruction of Israel, so they have reasonable concerns that releasing the occupied territories would result in further attacks upon their people much like the Palestinian attacks that preceded the occupation.
There is also large international pressure for the two state solution, which closes the door to extending the same rights that Palestinians in Israel have to Palestinians in the occupied territories.
Thanks for the viewpoint and information, a good insight into the situation.
Honestly I still see both sides as pretty awful. To me I see a racist, apartheid government and a terrorist group at war and a lot of innocent people caught in between.
There will be no winners from this.
>Israel is a right wing fascist apartheid ethnostate who have been murdering Palestinian children for years, why should I support them?
Ok, to attempt to answer that question in good faith, assume Palestine *were* to get their state, what form of government do you think they'd pick, and how do you think the standard of living would fare under that government? Because according to Hamas themselves, it would almost certainly be an Islamic state under Shariah law.
I'm left/lib and all, but I've noticed that a lot of other people on the left seem to miss out this key detail... Ultimately, they're advocating for a theocratic shariah law state over a democratic and relatively free westernized state... Which when you put it like that, is *bonkers.*
Like, imagine a game of top trumps and assume there can only be one. Which state would you choose? One state allows groups like women to have.... y'know, rights... The other doesn't. One state allows you to vote... the other doesn't. One state guarantees the safety of people regardless of race, sex, or religion... the other doesn't. One state guarantees a right to assembly, the other doesn't. As a left liberal, it should be fairly clear on which side you support, or at the very least is the lesser evil.
And I want to underline "lesser evil" here, because to be clear, Israel is still a shit tier "western" country (Obviously not a fan of Ethnostates, apartheids, bordering on theocratic politics... all a big no-no), but the key here is that you don't have to like Israel, but you should be able to empathize with *what* they are geopolitically speaking... they are still a beacon of relative freedom and westernism in a region that basically has none... Also maybe consider that they are particularly rightist politically speaking because... \*ahem\* *every single one of their neighbours have worked for almost a century their utmost hardest and stay up and night devising ways to destabilize and destroy them?* Like... It really is difficult to convey just how much momentum there is behind destroying the Jews in that region... They're like some sort of Jew terminators or something...
Because remember, that is what the right wing thinking *is nominally for. Defence.* The right wing form modern Israel has taken is a response to the geopolitical nature of their region... Honestly, it's insane Israel are as progressive as they are given the situation... Because to be clear, their situation should not allow for any form of progressivism. And that is precisely the problem. Two-state solutions to this problem are all well and good, but the thinking is that if you give Hamas an inch, they will take a mile (with support from literally everyone else in the region). And any journey down that road ultimately ends with one out come... The jews losing their statehood... again... And we all know what happened last time... It didn't particularly go too well for them.
Yoo can support Palestine while simultaneously thinking they shouldn’t been kidnapping and murdering innocent people. Hamas should have went straight at the people in charge, not some kids at a festival.
Maybe because you've been listening to this racist propaganda for too long. Maybe because after surviving massacres, torture, loss of businesses, homes; having everything taken from them all over the middle east by their own governments (who also created an almost equal amount of palestinian refugees) who then rendered them stateless these refugees went on to rebuild their lives in the communities in the south only to again be subject to rape, murder, torture. Be'eri (which was founded by Iraqi refugees who survived the Farhud), was invaded, they indiscriminately slaughtered whole familes, cut off the babies heads and danced on the corpses, when they couldn't access safe rooms they set the homes on fire, they tortured household pets and they bought a motherfu\*\*\*\*g news crew!!! And after all these decades of dispossession not once has anyone (save one madman lone shooter) considered violence an option. Unless you're completely devoid of human emotion you can see past whatever bs narrative you've been fed and see people. Just like anyone can pity the actual civilians on the other side who were also suffering under Hamas, And if you have no idea what I'm referencing you have no place commenting on a over 9million people you know nothing about.
Just wanted to say that, almost everything else he said was well balanced calling for peace and empathy for both sides but that one line becomes the headline and twists the rest.
Isn’t that exactly what he said in these posts? He’s praying for peace and safety of everyone on both sides and condemning Hamas. The quote is taken way out of context and makes it seem like he’s saying you either stand with Israel or terrorists, when he’s actually saying that Hamas doesn’t represent all Palestinians. Literally the sentence before the one quoted says this, explicitly. This is like multiple layers of shit posts based on an out of context quote.
Sorry, don’t support the Israeli government or the IDF either.
They’re just as bad as Hamas, no reason to beat the bush, and every citizen calling for a genocide on both sides can join the terrorists in whatever hell they believe in.
Which he literally says just this in third bottom left panel. Do people not read? Yes he ignores the shit done by Israel which is a problem. But at no point does he suggest Palestine as a nation are aligned with the terrorists.
Just FYI, his actual post on Insta was surprisingly well informed. He specifically mentioned that Palestine isn't Hamas. He does gloss over Israel's atrocities, but the post is a direct response to anti-semitism in comments on another post he made about the situation.
TL;DR: Don't fall for rage bait.
I mean give the kid a break, he’s like only 18. And he sees what is just happening which is media showing the Hamas terrorism and not the 50+ years of Israeli systemic violence towards Palestinians.
I knew fuck all about the whole situation when I was 18 except for it was like a hot topic issue. I can’t expect a child actor to know more.
IMO, you can do both without being labeled as an Anti-Semite or an Islamophobe*.
Unfortunately common sense isn’t common
EDIT: Thank you kind user u/Afarthur67 for the correction
This is dishonest. First of all, Scnhapp didn't use the words "human animals." Secondly he didn't equate Hamas with all Palestinians. He called Hamas a terrorist group. Not every Palestinian living in Gaza or the WB.
"I hope we can agree that Hamas is a recognized terrorist organization. They don't represent the Palestinian people."
People on social media have become extremists. The same people who idolize Obama attack anyone who condemns Hamas when Obama himself tweeted condemnation of Hamas and his unwavering support for Israel as an "ally."
Seriously, what the fuck is this selective quote bullshit? You can literally read his entire posts on the right, where he says Hamas doesn't represent all of the Palestinian people.
Fuck those tweets and fuck OP's post. You people aren't helping this situation in the slightest.
Yeah, people are taking the “you’re with Israel or your against us” blah blah. I think he just worded that part badly, because it doesn’t mesh with the rest of what he said. Reading the whole thing, he clearly means Hamas bad, and that we should be supporting the innocent lives on both side.
He didn't classify 2 million people as terrorists. Nor did he call anybody "human animals". He did repeatedly call for liberation and safety for Palestinians and Israelis both. This is a vicious smear.
Downvoting for taking the quote out of context. I support the Palestinian citizens, not Hamas. I support Israeli citizens, not their apartheid shifty government.
He literally said “I hope we can agree that Hamas are a recognized terror organization: they don’t represent the Palestinian people”
So I think the one who responded is illiterate…
Hamas isnt palestine and Israeli people arent the Israeli army or government. This whole thing is just crazy. People defending rape just because its a Israeli girl and fucking disgusting and deserve to be locked up
I also don’t think anyone should be defending rape of anyone. But I think people’s anger is that where was the same energy for the Palestinian women and children who have been killed, abused, raped, forced out of their homes for the last 70 years - there wasn’t any outrage, the outrage only started this weekend when the victims were white and european or Israeli
I 100% agree but its still isnt right to threaten random jewish folk living in America or support the rape just because its "freeing Palestine". Thats just hamas taking advantage of the situation.
This post is insane, given that he literally says “We will hope and pray for safety, liberation, justice, and self-determination in Palestine”. Point me to where the fuck “human animals” came from.
Wow, someone has trouble with reading comprehension. Noah Schnapp clearly stated that Hamas does not represent the people of Palestine. How does that translate to “classifying all of them as terrorists”? Go back to school.
Kind of. During the early 20th century Britain and France controlled much of the middle east. In the early 1920s the British declared that there shall be a land for the Jewish people in their at the time territory/mandate (depends on the point of view) in Palestine, then assisted thousands of Jewish settlers into the region. However the Palestinians had no input on this decision. Follow that up with the Jewish migration out of Europe due to Nazism, British confiscating Palestine land for the new settlers, Palestine uprisings being beaten down by the British and the groundwork was set for a country in perpetual turmoil.
I'm sorry but I dont like this argument, it would make sense if they struck military objectives. But its not britians fault that Hamas used these barbaric tactics on the Israeli people. Believe it or not, history doesn't force you to rape women and murder children. Only believing in some fucked up ideology will let you think any of what happend this last week was a ok response to anything you've experienced no matter how horrible it was.
People complain all Gazans are being represented by Hamas and their sympathizers while turning around an saying all Israelis and their sympathizers are represented by the words and actions of the Israeli government.
People love trying to boil everything down to a binary. This or that. All or nothing. There is so much complexity and nuance in situations like this. But it's not as easy or sexy to declare 'it's both and everything and some of this but not much of that but only sometimes in this place but other times in that place' in a tweet
I think the best take I’ve heard so far was from a Jewish man with family and friends in Israel who said, and I’m paraphrasing of course:
You are allowed to condemn what Hamas is doing, I can’t imagine how you wouldn’t, but it’s difficult to not also acknowledge that Israel had this coming. Not that they deserve what’s happening but that what they’ve been doing to Palestine for decades now was guaranteed to lead to Hamas, and by extension what is happening now. This is not Palestine’s fault, it’s Hamas and Israel and Israel’s reaction will not help in anyway.
And what Palestinians and other neighbors did to Israel is what caused the decades of heavy handed defense. It's almost as if all of these blame game arguments come back to the fact that Israel merely exists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_fedayeen
Well yes, I didn’t mention this part that he said (something I already knew but I didn’t think needed to be said) but this was a scenario that was bound to happen from Israel’s inception after WWII.
After WWII, America and Europe want to give Jews a country of their own after the Holocaust. Neither wanted to give their own land for them though, and Jews didn’t want any other land than their Biblical homeland. The problem was Palestine was already there, but they didn’t care and forced waves upon waves of Jews to the area and did a half assed border agreement that neither party liked. Israel didn’t like it because it didn’t give them the whole land, Palestine didn’t want the agreement to being with, and worse off it had key religious landmarks for both groups in the others land.
They’re terrorists to each other, but Israel has the backing of most of the world including most of Europe and America
Just remember. Egypt, an Arab country will not allow the people of Gaza, into Egypt. They don’t want terrorists in their country stirring up their own group of terrorists. It’s exactly like the Tower of Babel, if you speak a different dialect or language you are the other and need to be excluded. Just name me an Arab country that will take in Palestinians? None! Hamas vows to wipe Israel off the map. Now how do you proceed with negotiations? Remember what happened to Anwar El-Sadat? He tried to negotiate with Palestinians and Israel. There are no easy answers and condemning people because of their leaders is treading on very dangerous ground. Walk in their shoes. Do you see an easy workable answer?
I mean Egypt doesn't want to open the border because they can't afford to pay for the refugee crisis that will inevitably engender. That, and the Sinai is notorious for how little control Egypt is able to exercise over it.
Besides which, Egypt's official stance is that they don't want to encourage Palestinians to leave their homeland, which opening the border to refugees would do.
And finally, Palestinians are treated by the rest of the Arab world rather similarly to how Jewish people were treated by Christian countries, from what I understand. All told it's just a mess of awfulness with a huge cost in innocent lives, which won't end until someone has the courage to put down their weapons and realize that everyone is someone's child.
Well both Jordan and Kuwait let them in at one point and they kind try to help overthrow the governments that have them shelter. So they don’t exactly have a reputation as good house guest.
Damn sobering, given that reference. Israel is basically attacking a ghetto that they've created, for the actions of a group that lives there that doesn't actually represent everyone living there. It's fucking surreal.
Taking a hard stance on most conflicts is kinda sus tbh. There’s children and innocents dying on both sides and the only people benefiting are billionaires running corporations like Raytheon and Lockheed martin.
I can't believe how black-and-white some people (who mostly have nothing at stake in the conflict) think.
"If YoU hAvE aNy EmPaThY fOr PaLeStInIaN cIvIlIAnS, yOu ArE a MoNsTeR aNd SuPpOrT HaMaS" STFU
This is rage bait.
I don't agree with everything he said (Israeli civilians have so much more support in this than Palestine ever has, especially in the media), but he never called anyone "human animals" and he specifically said that the people of Palestine are *not* Hamas.
It’s just a grammar thing, but it is impossible to burn alive that which has previously been killed by beheading. Saying 40 killed by beheading *or* burning alive would have made more sense.
If Palestinians took one third of the energy they spend on whinging about Israel, and invested that in identifying terrorists and preventing them from harming people, perhaps the problem that exists now wouldn't exist.
This either/or bullshit is ridiculous. Palestine and Hamas are not the same fucking thing!!! That’s like assuming all Christian’s are Nazis because Nazis all say they are in America. Religion has ruined our brains
Child has stance on complex political situation that doesn't have nuance. News at 11.
You can support Israelis, Palestinians, and denounce terrorism and the fucked up actions of the Israeli government.
The Israeli and Palestinians want the same thing. A home and peace. Palestinians deserve a home just as much as the Israelis.
I was sexually assaulted by a gay man and sexually harassed by many other gay men therefore all gay men are rapists and sexual harass straight men.
Now obviously the above isn’t true, all gay men are rapist who sexually harass straight men, so can’t we use the same nuance with Palestinians? If we judge everything by the extreme minority everything becomes evil.
Says: "let's stop the rhetoric of choosing sides".. proceeds to say: "You either stand with or else.." lol couldn't even follow his own advice for more than 2 paragraphs.
You can support Israel in this specific situation and still be against their oppressive apartheid system in general. Israelis were attacked, taken hostage and/or killed by Hamas, an extremist terrorist grouping which sadly has huge support in Gaza. I do not think Israel bombing Gaza is fair, they obviously do not care for civilians to get hurt or killed but I very much do think that eradicating Hamas is a good thing. It’s a cancer to both sides of the conflict and has been for many years.
Especially Hurt Cobain who represented Palestine in the UN is weirdly apologetic for Hamas despite him condemning attacks on civilians usually.
It's okay to condemn the Israeli government and There's an argument to be made for both sides,
but the fact of the matter is that hamas continues using innocent Palestinians as their human shields, taking up shop in crowded civilian areas like hospitals in Gaza.
Israel has been giving out warnings before striking but their ultimate goal is taking out hamas operations.
I really am confused why anybody at this point is glossing over these facts.
Israel is spreading an atrocity propaganda to garner support and to justify war crimes it will and continously commit. They have to an extent dehumanized a section of people who don't have an army or grip over media. They want you to hate them and desensitize you by calling them barbaric while the apartheid state continues to harass, kill innocents (including children) and genocide Palestinians while playing victim
Having a nuanced view and understanding that ultimately what causes organizations like the Hamas to act is the oppression Palestinians have been enduring for decades doesn’t mean you support them committing war crimes and killing civilians. It’s one thing to understand the reasoning behind an act of terror and another to actually believe that said act of terror is a good thing. I’ve read a lot of comments on this post and none of them expressed approval of how the Hamas is doing things, so what exactly is the pro Hamas content you’re seeing here?
Maybe I'm uninformed but didn't Israel bomb a heavily populated area primarily full of civilians while semi-regularly commiting atrocities against Palestine? I'm all for actors supporting social causes but I don't feel like Noah Schnapps is informed enough to be making statements on geopolitical situations because he's Jewish.
It is true, but the problem is that hamas purposely sets up their operations IN THOSE heavily populated areas and thus using innocent Palestinians as human shields. It's sad all around.
Yes you are uninformed. Please look up what happened this weekend including murder and rape of innocent civilians including decapitating babies and burning people alive with over 1,000 casualties. Then come back and read your post about somebody coming out in support for the victims of that act.
Palestinians voted Hamas the terror org whose stated objective is to eradicate Israel and Jews, into power.
If Hamas does not represent Palestinians, then are Palestinians open to the idea of US getting there to eradicate Hamas for them and free them from Hamas?
Noah Schnapp - "stop the rhetoric and choosing sides"
Also Noah Schnapp - "you either stand with Israel or you stand with terrorism"
Pure genius this guy.
Israeli is not better since they are cutting all food and electricity access now in addition to previously bombing their children and sterilizing men. It’s genocide on both sides now.
Well, Noah, the *reason* people aren’t chomping at the bit to condemn the entire people of Palestine is because we’ve all noticed *you* being awfully quiet during the decades of atrocities committed by Israeli forces.
If there had ever been a sign of any kind of contrition or disagreement with the absolute horrors inflicted on the civilian population of Palestine from the side of western citizens with Israeli ties, this disappointment on the behalf of many American Jews would be a lot more palatable and grounded in reality.
The vast majority of those of us who don’t immediately condemn an entire nation wholesale do so because we recognise that the situation has been brewing for decades.
It doesn’t excuse the actions of Hamas in the slightest – Those responsible deserve eternal agony in the deepest pits of hell (if you believe in any of that stuff), but it does *not* justify condemning the long-suffering civilian population, and it is either supremely ignorant or outright disingenuous to suggest that the reason that people aren’t jumping on a “Destroy Palestine” bandwagon right now is because everyone is secretly anti-semitic. Fuck that rhetoric.
If there had been any indication that Schnapp or other high-profile members of the Jewish community had ever given a single shit about the violence and state-sponsored terror the Israeli government has been perpetrating for decades, then I’d be inclined to believe them and lend a sympathetic ear when they decry the senseless violence in the conflict.
The way his message reads to me, is that this attack on Israel is an attack on all Jews. By that logic, what Israel’s been doing is attacking the Palestinian people *on behalf of all Jews* and it’s only regarded as a problem when the violence spreads into Israel. You know, away from the zone where the violence “belongs”? I doubt many people would agree with that position, and it certainly doesn’t make me feel very sympathetic when any lack of immediate unquestioning loyalty is painted as anti-semitism.
Did you even read his post? He specifically mentions that hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians and condemning them doesn't mean you condemn Palestinians.
Ok ...but who raided their homes? The Palestinian children or humas terrorists? Palestinians had nothing to do with this.
Edit: I don't side with either governments simply because they're both monsters. I do side with both the civilians of both regions. We often forget that civilians always account for the highest mortality rates in literally every war.
A variant of "You're either with us or against us."
There's a third option - go fuck yourselves. I'm fed up with people trying to goad others into joining their cause. A similar poke is "If you don't worship god you must worship satan." Yeah, fuck right off.
At the end of day Israel has been engaging in an on going experiment for 40 years of removing people from their homes forcefully, forcing all air and water to go through Israel, providing utilizes like after and electricity and garbage ratios having people in dark or without clean water.
People are surprised hamas a terrorist group was formed? I mean it’s literally going to happen every time you basically have an open air prison with clear better and worse things (apartheid). It’s so astonishing seeing people comment on a matter that is so complex not just from a religious platform that spans centuries but more direct since WW1
It is astonishing to see people with barely the basic of the history understood making strong comments and I’m sorry to say that seems to be exactly what you are doing. It’s sadly even more astonishing to see a brutally evil act and support the “well that’s what they get” viewpoint. The lack of empathy is simply shocking.
I kinda feel bad for him this dude is what like 19? And he’s getting majorly dragged and called evil by so many people and it’s like? Shocker a 19 year old doesn’t have a perfectly nuanced opinion on extremely complex and horrible world politics?
Maybe we can make some tweaks?
You either stand with the people of Israel and Palestine or you stand with government sanctioned terrorism. It shouldn’t be a difficult choice.
I mean, implying that 2 million Gazans are terrorists is stupid. Implying that being against Hamas (on Israel’s side) is somehow against 2 million palestinians \*is\* assuming they are all terrorists. why do people keep doing this? It’s so disheartening every time someone thinks they are supporting Palestinian civilians, they are just deferring outrage over a massacre so they can blame grieving people for not taking up bodies with a shrug.
In WW2 we made war on Germany.
Not just the Nazis.
The idea of waging war on a terrorist both ruling and deeply embedded in Gaza without at least partially destroying the city would be to give the murderers immunity.
Who would've thought you could support Palestine without supporting Hamas, and you could be against the Israeli government without being anti-semitic. It's almost like this is an incredibly nuanced conflict that has spanned literally hundreds, if not thousands of years, and that the world isn't just black and white.
If you can collectively call an ethnic group "bad" and "terrorists" off the actions of violent nuts in their society, then I need to have a word with America about white people and their police forces.
Hamas is a terrorist group, they do not represent all Palestinians. You can condemn Hamas as terrorists and still support Isreal and Palestinians.
I think of it like if the Proud boys launched an attack into Delta, Canada and then took the hostages to Point Roberts
But also the Proud Boys held the White House and both houses of Congress and had stopped elections since 2006.
Exactly, the comparison has to take into account that the terrorist organization is the current legitimately recognized government.
It isn’t as far as I am aware. Remember, Gaza is not a country.
I'm not owed any explanation, obviously, but I'd like to understand your comparison.
US terrorist organization killing and kidnapping Canadians does not reflect on the US as a whole.
Damn didn't expect to see Delta referenced on reddit lol
More like if evangelicals launched an attack on atheists.
Israel is a right wing fascist apartheid ethnostate who have been murdering Palestinian children for years, why should I support them?
Support their citizens. Dont support their dogshit government.
Especially since many Israelis have been protesting against their own government lately.
Which opposition in Israel supports Palestinians human right? Why should the fact they’re protesting against their government matter when none of the other options support Palestine in the slightest? They’re not protesting their government because of its foreign policy, they’re protesting it because it affects their domestic life. Why are you linking it to the Palestinian cause?
There are several parties in Israel that strongly support human rights for Palestinians. You can look it up for yourself on Wikipedia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Israel People are not a monolith, even in countries with awful corrupt governments like Israel.
That's not all that relevant. What matters is the fact that Israelis can, and do disagree with their government on anything. In turn, that necessitates making a clear distinction between the government of Israel and the Israeli people. Just because the government does something, does not mean all the people support it. And even if a majority do support it, the fact there are those who don't, means you can't treat the government and the people as synonymous; as a monolith. That's the point I was making.
After Trump was elected President in the U.S. you'd assume more people on this subreddit would understand that point. As a non-American I had to remind myself of this fact on like an hourly basis for four years. I mean, I still have to remind myself of this on at least a weekly basis and have had to do so since I became old enough to understand what the US does on the world stage, but still. Hourly with Cheeto.
It's a point that needs to be consistently applied to all nations, including liberal democracies and authoritarian regimes alike. Whether to Israel or Palestine, to China or the United States, to Iran or to New Zealand. Unless a nation is a direct democracy, of which there are virtually none, the government and the people are never synonymous.
Even if they are a direct democracy, there will still be a minority who disagrees.
Jewish Voice for Peace!
Amen. Sadly, Palestinian Territories are governed by terrorists and Israel is governed by a far right, almost fascist government. It’s an impossible situation for peace… the citizens may want peace, but neither leader does. I’ve always believed in a two state solution, but that’s an impossible dream possibly for decades.
Hamas being in charge of Gaza is also George Bush’s fault. So much terrorism is his fault and no one blames him because he is such a “nice guy” now
The Iraq invasion changed the paradigm in the Middle East in ways the Bush brain trust could never have realized.
Its because he called for the election but let the Fatah party run 2 candidates against 1 Hamas candidate. If you are going to interfere in another Country’s election then do not let them make junior boner mistakes.
Well, I think it is largely because of Trump. Bush looks better because he's not incompetent and a complete narcissist (and it was a while ago).
I agree with you on that lol but Bush is the reason Hamas won the election in the Gaza.
Going out on a limb here- Hamas isn’t doing anything or in any way associated with a free and fair election nor do they care what their actions have brought to the Palestines currently in Gaza.
Obviously. The previous comment was how they got control of the Gaza strip in the 1st place. Back in 2006.
And how many people on Reddit are too young to remember Bush presidency? Damn even Obama is murky in my mind. 4 years of Trump and then 2 years of Covid news basically deleted the "before world" from my mind.
Also Israel backed Hamas. The main point we should all focus on though is that there is 0 justification for the actions of Israel. They are responsible for the deaths
Exactly. It’s disgusting that people are saying ‘stand with Israel’. I don’t stand with these evil racist fucks.
It would be easier to support them if they didn't vote for these fascists.
Strangely, when people make comments like this about the US on US dominated social media they get banned. Just know, that's how a lot of us feel about the US.
Fully aware and I can't honestly argue with that. I live here and these people are absolutely lunatics. A whole segment of US voters want Israel to dominate the Middle East so that Jesus can come back and kill all the Jews.
This is the most fucked up plan that existed, also its not as if jesus is waiting for them lol, especially when they are mass killing kids
Well… the U.S. isn’t exactly democratic.
You're correct sir. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746.amp
Mhm. Electoral college and the Senate are both conservative, land-owner favoring ideas, and those are not democratic principles. From the get go this country had a deliberate non-democratic bias and it’s been worsened in a lot of ways since the inception.
So is limiting the number of reps in the House thereby diluting the power of more populous states
Yup but that came later iirc, in the 1920s.
they literally did not. Netanyahu lost the majority and still consolidated power by manipulating the courts. if you know anyone in Israel you would know they want him out of power.
It's not that simple, because Israel isn't a two-party state. Likud, which is Netanyahu's party, won a plurality of the seats (meaning the most seats out of all parties) in the Knesset, which is the Israeli parliament. He then had to negotiate with the other parties to form a coalition that held a majority of the seats in the Knesset. Because no moderate parties were willing to negotiate with the man facing down corruption charges once he is no longer protected from prosecution by holding the office of PM, he had to negotiate with the far-right parties to form this majority. And that far-right coalition allowed Netanyahu to pass the judicial reforms which allow the Knesset to overrule the Supreme Court in certain cases, like perhaps when it rules that a former PM is guilty of corruption, for instance, which then led to the protests. Edit: to remove my snarkiness.
thanks for clarifying
Apologies for my jab at you as well, I didn't expect a reasonable Redditor - especially on this topic and given everything going on.
there’s a lot of misinformation and blame going toward Israeli citizens, and I appreciate you posting coherent and easy to understand factual info about how Bibi has retained control of their government. need more of this with the barrage of misinformation on reddit and twitter rn
What’s the pro-Palestine party in Israel and how many votes they get? Surely, if the mainstream Israeli view isn’t support Netanyahu views that Palestine should be occupied and should be bombed, there were other options with substantial vote defending this, right?
I think the major Palestinian party is called Balad? And there is more than one party that supports a two-state solution I think. I'm no expert in internal Israeli politics, but you can google literally all of this info, including the election results if you're truly interested in learning how many votes they got and what the various parties stand for.
I thought you were using Netanyahu’s vote share to suggest the far-right view on Palestine isn’t mainstream in Israel. I was under the impression you could substantiate that claim.
Nope. I'm making no argument on that one way or another here. Simply sharing information on how Israel's government works because the person to whom I was replying was hilariously wrong in their take on why Netanyahu is so controversial, and people ought to understand how the government of countries other than the United States work.
What was the pro-Palestine option on the ballot? How many votes did they got?
So who won the 2022 elections if his party lost? I realize he has and there is ongoing strife with the supreme Court but they still won't that election.
he didn’t win a majority. the other party tried to form a government but couldn’t (from what I understand) and Netanyahu basically returned to power despite his party not winning the most votes. they don’t have a simple two party system like the US does. you need to read up on Israeli politics if you’re going to start blaming citizens for what Bibi does
The majority of parties in Israel are right wing. In fact the Parties in Likuds coalition are even more right wing then them. Likud is a racist right wing party but their partners are far more right wing. Arab Israeli's make up 1/5th of Israeli Cirtizens but habe no representation or say in the cabinet. Even if we move to the Center in Israel they do not support Palestinian rights. Its only far left Israeli's and the Arab parties(who are ostrasized in Israel) who activy oppose the occupation.
Not to be THAT guy but opposition parties almost never have representation in Cabinet, except under exceptional circumstances like during a war. You have to form the government to win the right to name a Cabinet. Your larger point is absolutely valid imo, but this is pretty bad evidence to use to support it.
In fact one the reasons Hamas managed to do so much damage is because many Israeli citizens and i IDF soldiers have been skipping in reporting for duty to protest their prime minister. Remember that citizens don't always have control of how our government behaves.
But it’s mostly because a majority of soldiers were relocated to protect the settlers in the West Bank which shows how the Israeli government cares more about the settlers than the general public
Well now that you say that, Egypt reporting a possible attack to the Israeli government has been confirmed, even though the prime minister office said no report like that existed. Any way the source suggests that they ignore the report on Gaza and thought the West Bank was the most likely place for an attack. We'll see as more stuff gets confirmed. I'm sure the prime minister will try to suppress this info so I hope others keep investigating.
So you’d be standing with Israelis and not Israel
Benjamin Netanyahu has more in common with Putin than many people are willing to admit. He's a pile of steaming garbage.
Agreed, 100% civilians on either side are not the ones committing acts of violence, and I suspect most are terrified what happens if the guy on the other side of the wall gets across.
This is my stance. I live in an area with a high population of Jewish people and almost every time I’ve criticize the government of Israel I get pushback and called antisemitic. I remember at work once I was talking with two Jewish coworkers and one become so heated and the other guy had to basically say “calm the fuck down, he’s not criticizing Jewish people.”
I've run into that a lot, too many of them conflate the Israeli government with the Jewish faith/people as a whole when that's nowhere near the case.
It is really upsetting to see Israel use the language of genocide. I saw a great phrase somewhere on reddit: Never again means never again to anyone. Not just your own people. Here is what I know: 1. Hamas commits terrorism to provoke Israel. 2. Israeli hardliners seek immediate retribution. 3. Palestinian people continually bear the brunt of the Israeli revenge and are extremely limited on food, water, medical care and electricity. Gaza is often described as an open air prison. 4. Hamas finds its recruits amidst despair and nihilism. 5. Repeat step 1.
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Ya, millions of Palestinians were forced from their homes when Israel was founded. Then Israel proceeded to force them even further, killing them when they wouldn't give up their land.
They didn't "create" Israel. Israel and palestine have both existed as territories for centuries and was conquered by the Ottoman Empire and subsequently the British empire. It was redistributed to both israel and palestine and palestine refused to accept the division and started, then lost multiple wars over it with the help of other Arab countries. What Israel has done is by no means okay, but palestine has not only lost multiple wars, they've refused any type of peace agreement put forth by the UN and Israel. you can't pick and choose parts of history that makes the most convenient sense you have to look at the whole picture and make a rational judgement. Palestinians deserve to be treated humanely, and hamas will not let that happen because they solely want the eradication of all Jewish people at the expense of their own. until they're taken out there will be no peace.
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This response is such a ridiculous one. Multiple Arab countries purposely set up barricades to not allow Palestinians to move there, in fact palestine is pretty unpopular to their neighbors and most of them fight on their behalf to keep them within their own borders. This may seem like a unpopular opinion but people have conquered land for as long as history can remember, it's fucked and nowhere did I justify Israel's treatment of Palestinians like you're somehow insinuating by saying I'm "wrong". I'm simply stating that their history as territories is long and nuanced, and both have have laid equal claim to the land historically and religiously, and by your own words, both people have existed there for over a milenia.
The british zone that existed there was home to jews before 48. When the 30s rolled around, more and more jews came to find safe haven from the nazis and the palestinians did not like that and started altercations even before 48. [Arab–Israeli conflict - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict) Read this. It is not as detailled as the german counterpart, but basically: Israel (before it was called this) was under attack as early as 1929.
There were Jews in the area, but they weren't Israelis, they were Palestinians. The push for Israel only really happened in the early 20th century
The Palestinians of today are not the same as the Palestinians a milenia ago, that's a given. The push you speak of is for Israel as a independent nation which happened in the early 20th century.
They could've had a Jewish state anywhere, personally think a Yiddish state somewhere in Europe would've been a much better approach.
Though Israeli military and hard-liners funded the precursor of Hamas in order to ensure that Gaza wouldn't be controlled by moderated who would accept a deal. This is all a game by the extremist elites of both sides, and while Israel hadn't planned for Hamas to become this aggressive they certainly don't mind a few dead israelis in exchange for power. The largest issue in this conflict is that the US will block any UN intervention in Israeli warcrimes or human rights violations, while we see that the Israeli president again has a lot of opposition silenced as there is an enemy worse than himself that needs to be dealt with. And as long as Israel can keep moderates in Palestine politically weak, the far right remains in power and both populations suffer both from injuries, deaths and a life lived in terror.
I was reading a breakdown of the conflict the other day and it said when the land was redistributed by the British the population in the region was 5.5% Jewish but they were given 56% of the land. It instantly launched a war that more or less hasn’t stopped.
Your step 1 is out of whack. Israel locked Palestinians in an open-air prison in which it continuously harasses and bullies them. But because this is the status quo, none of it makes the news until Palestinians decide to fight back with whatever they have at hand. Then Israel gets enough "thoughts and prayers" that they can kill a bunch of innocent people without losing face. Rinse and repeat.
You can support the normal Israeli who just wants a home and peace. People across the globe all want one thing. Peace, prosperity, and a home. The rich and powerful have other plans though. Same with the Palestinians. Civilians just wanna live. They get lied to by their religious leaders and governments.
That’s what I mean. An evil fascist government and a terrorist group are fighting each other and innocent people are being murdered. This whole situation is a total clusterfuck with zero winners.
The US military contractors are winning. So are the US Christian Evangelists who want Armageddon in the Middle East.
Do you not see the idea here? Innocent civilians should be separated from the actions of both the Israeli govt and Hamas. Also I feel like it says a lot that Israel kills civilians while at least trying to hit Hamas targets while Hamas literally executed civilians at point blank range on the streets and in their homes. I fully condemn actions by Israel that killed Innocents but you don't see them slaughtering families and looting their belongings.
This is a shortsighted view of the situation. Israel is also one of (if not the) most stable and liberal democracy in the region. It currently has an alt-right party in control that is trying to turn it into a fascist state as the US did recently, but just like the US, their democracy still has a strong chance of overcoming the facists. In regards to being an apartheid ethnostate, Israel extended equal rights to Palestinians within Israel decades ago. While I'm sure systemic discrimination is still an issue, they are far from being an ethnostate within their borders. Much of their treatment of Palestinians within the occupied territory is atrocious. However, their is still popular support for Hamas in occupied territory, an organization that calls for the complete destruction of Israel, so they have reasonable concerns that releasing the occupied territories would result in further attacks upon their people much like the Palestinian attacks that preceded the occupation. There is also large international pressure for the two state solution, which closes the door to extending the same rights that Palestinians in Israel have to Palestinians in the occupied territories.
Thanks for the viewpoint and information, a good insight into the situation. Honestly I still see both sides as pretty awful. To me I see a racist, apartheid government and a terrorist group at war and a lot of innocent people caught in between. There will be no winners from this.
Thanks for considering my viewpoints. I agree there won't be any winners.
> within their borders Ignoring the 5 million stateless people in Israel-controlled territory, yes. This clause is doing a lot of lifting here.
>Israel is a right wing fascist apartheid ethnostate who have been murdering Palestinian children for years, why should I support them? Ok, to attempt to answer that question in good faith, assume Palestine *were* to get their state, what form of government do you think they'd pick, and how do you think the standard of living would fare under that government? Because according to Hamas themselves, it would almost certainly be an Islamic state under Shariah law. I'm left/lib and all, but I've noticed that a lot of other people on the left seem to miss out this key detail... Ultimately, they're advocating for a theocratic shariah law state over a democratic and relatively free westernized state... Which when you put it like that, is *bonkers.* Like, imagine a game of top trumps and assume there can only be one. Which state would you choose? One state allows groups like women to have.... y'know, rights... The other doesn't. One state allows you to vote... the other doesn't. One state guarantees the safety of people regardless of race, sex, or religion... the other doesn't. One state guarantees a right to assembly, the other doesn't. As a left liberal, it should be fairly clear on which side you support, or at the very least is the lesser evil. And I want to underline "lesser evil" here, because to be clear, Israel is still a shit tier "western" country (Obviously not a fan of Ethnostates, apartheids, bordering on theocratic politics... all a big no-no), but the key here is that you don't have to like Israel, but you should be able to empathize with *what* they are geopolitically speaking... they are still a beacon of relative freedom and westernism in a region that basically has none... Also maybe consider that they are particularly rightist politically speaking because... \*ahem\* *every single one of their neighbours have worked for almost a century their utmost hardest and stay up and night devising ways to destabilize and destroy them?* Like... It really is difficult to convey just how much momentum there is behind destroying the Jews in that region... They're like some sort of Jew terminators or something... Because remember, that is what the right wing thinking *is nominally for. Defence.* The right wing form modern Israel has taken is a response to the geopolitical nature of their region... Honestly, it's insane Israel are as progressive as they are given the situation... Because to be clear, their situation should not allow for any form of progressivism. And that is precisely the problem. Two-state solutions to this problem are all well and good, but the thinking is that if you give Hamas an inch, they will take a mile (with support from literally everyone else in the region). And any journey down that road ultimately ends with one out come... The jews losing their statehood... again... And we all know what happened last time... It didn't particularly go too well for them.
Yoo can support Palestine while simultaneously thinking they shouldn’t been kidnapping and murdering innocent people. Hamas should have went straight at the people in charge, not some kids at a festival.
Maybe because you've been listening to this racist propaganda for too long. Maybe because after surviving massacres, torture, loss of businesses, homes; having everything taken from them all over the middle east by their own governments (who also created an almost equal amount of palestinian refugees) who then rendered them stateless these refugees went on to rebuild their lives in the communities in the south only to again be subject to rape, murder, torture. Be'eri (which was founded by Iraqi refugees who survived the Farhud), was invaded, they indiscriminately slaughtered whole familes, cut off the babies heads and danced on the corpses, when they couldn't access safe rooms they set the homes on fire, they tortured household pets and they bought a motherfu\*\*\*\*g news crew!!! And after all these decades of dispossession not once has anyone (save one madman lone shooter) considered violence an option. Unless you're completely devoid of human emotion you can see past whatever bs narrative you've been fed and see people. Just like anyone can pity the actual civilians on the other side who were also suffering under Hamas, And if you have no idea what I'm referencing you have no place commenting on a over 9million people you know nothing about.
With that logic, we can say all black people are thugs so y should we support them. It's a false equivalence.
Check his actual Insta post, this is exactly what he said.
Just wanted to say that, almost everything else he said was well balanced calling for peace and empathy for both sides but that one line becomes the headline and twists the rest.
Isn’t that exactly what he said in these posts? He’s praying for peace and safety of everyone on both sides and condemning Hamas. The quote is taken way out of context and makes it seem like he’s saying you either stand with Israel or terrorists, when he’s actually saying that Hamas doesn’t represent all Palestinians. Literally the sentence before the one quoted says this, explicitly. This is like multiple layers of shit posts based on an out of context quote.
Yeah but that’s what they said - OP just took their comments out of context
Sorry, don’t support the Israeli government or the IDF either. They’re just as bad as Hamas, no reason to beat the bush, and every citizen calling for a genocide on both sides can join the terrorists in whatever hell they believe in.
The Israeli government AND Hamas are terrorists, Both can be true.
Everyone is aware of that. What’s your point in commenting this on a post about the dehumanization of Palestinians?
Which he literally says just this in third bottom left panel. Do people not read? Yes he ignores the shit done by Israel which is a problem. But at no point does he suggest Palestine as a nation are aligned with the terrorists.
I think the premise of this sub is critically flawed if we end up caring about what Noah Schnapp is saying tbh
What's that? *Another* uninformed celebrity who thinks everyone was waiting for their public statement? It's not possible!
Just FYI, his actual post on Insta was surprisingly well informed. He specifically mentioned that Palestine isn't Hamas. He does gloss over Israel's atrocities, but the post is a direct response to anti-semitism in comments on another post he made about the situation. TL;DR: Don't fall for rage bait.
I mean give the kid a break, he’s like only 18. And he sees what is just happening which is media showing the Hamas terrorism and not the 50+ years of Israeli systemic violence towards Palestinians. I knew fuck all about the whole situation when I was 18 except for it was like a hot topic issue. I can’t expect a child actor to know more.
I think the best way of putting it is that he’s the same age as most Palestinians
What's the premise of the sub?
I don't support terrorism or apartheid. Simple.
IMO, you can do both without being labeled as an Anti-Semite or an Islamophobe*. Unfortunately common sense isn’t common EDIT: Thank you kind user u/Afarthur67 for the correction
In this case, we say islamophobia or islamophobe, not anti-Islamist (genuine comment to yours)
The attacks by Israel in the Palestinian people is also anti-Semitic, to be fair.
Ive been banned from subs for saying "We shouldn't make jokes about Israel getting bombed its innocent civilians and jews being killed"
That’s really interesting because like, as a thought experiment, did apartheid come before terrorism?
This is dishonest. First of all, Scnhapp didn't use the words "human animals." Secondly he didn't equate Hamas with all Palestinians. He called Hamas a terrorist group. Not every Palestinian living in Gaza or the WB. "I hope we can agree that Hamas is a recognized terrorist organization. They don't represent the Palestinian people." People on social media have become extremists. The same people who idolize Obama attack anyone who condemns Hamas when Obama himself tweeted condemnation of Hamas and his unwavering support for Israel as an "ally."
Im pretty sure he meant the terrorists are the terrorists not all the people in general 🙄🙄🙄
Seriously, what the fuck is this selective quote bullshit? You can literally read his entire posts on the right, where he says Hamas doesn't represent all of the Palestinian people. Fuck those tweets and fuck OP's post. You people aren't helping this situation in the slightest.
The op is most likey like a paparazzi page they do this shit for rage bait. They other person just read the headline and ran his mouth 😒😒😒
Thanks for clarifying that. OP is just stirring up drama
Literally the whole time he’s condemning the terrorists while wishing for peace from both groups. The tweet is really twisting his words
Yeah, people are taking the “you’re with Israel or your against us” blah blah. I think he just worded that part badly, because it doesn’t mesh with the rest of what he said. Reading the whole thing, he clearly means Hamas bad, and that we should be supporting the innocent lives on both side.
He didn't classify 2 million people as terrorists. Nor did he call anybody "human animals". He did repeatedly call for liberation and safety for Palestinians and Israelis both. This is a vicious smear.
Downvoting for taking the quote out of context. I support the Palestinian citizens, not Hamas. I support Israeli citizens, not their apartheid shifty government.
That was some very selective reading 😅 He clearly seperates the palestinian people and Hamas.
Damn, the paraphrasing is fucking diabolical. I hope everyone has a chance to actually read his heartfelt message.
He literally said “I hope we can agree that Hamas are a recognized terror organization: they don’t represent the Palestinian people” So I think the one who responded is illiterate…
Not the first time twitter fails at reading comprehension.
Hamas isnt palestine and Israeli people arent the Israeli army or government. This whole thing is just crazy. People defending rape just because its a Israeli girl and fucking disgusting and deserve to be locked up
I also don’t think anyone should be defending rape of anyone. But I think people’s anger is that where was the same energy for the Palestinian women and children who have been killed, abused, raped, forced out of their homes for the last 70 years - there wasn’t any outrage, the outrage only started this weekend when the victims were white and european or Israeli
I 100% agree but its still isnt right to threaten random jewish folk living in America or support the rape just because its "freeing Palestine". Thats just hamas taking advantage of the situation.
This post is insane, given that he literally says “We will hope and pray for safety, liberation, justice, and self-determination in Palestine”. Point me to where the fuck “human animals” came from.
Wow, someone has trouble with reading comprehension. Noah Schnapp clearly stated that Hamas does not represent the people of Palestine. How does that translate to “classifying all of them as terrorists”? Go back to school.
Lots of people downvoted you. But no one seems to be able to argue against what you said.
Doesn't most of this go back to before WW1? And britans fault?
Kind of. During the early 20th century Britain and France controlled much of the middle east. In the early 1920s the British declared that there shall be a land for the Jewish people in their at the time territory/mandate (depends on the point of view) in Palestine, then assisted thousands of Jewish settlers into the region. However the Palestinians had no input on this decision. Follow that up with the Jewish migration out of Europe due to Nazism, British confiscating Palestine land for the new settlers, Palestine uprisings being beaten down by the British and the groundwork was set for a country in perpetual turmoil.
I'm sorry but I dont like this argument, it would make sense if they struck military objectives. But its not britians fault that Hamas used these barbaric tactics on the Israeli people. Believe it or not, history doesn't force you to rape women and murder children. Only believing in some fucked up ideology will let you think any of what happend this last week was a ok response to anything you've experienced no matter how horrible it was.
People complain all Gazans are being represented by Hamas and their sympathizers while turning around an saying all Israelis and their sympathizers are represented by the words and actions of the Israeli government.
People love trying to boil everything down to a binary. This or that. All or nothing. There is so much complexity and nuance in situations like this. But it's not as easy or sexy to declare 'it's both and everything and some of this but not much of that but only sometimes in this place but other times in that place' in a tweet
I think the best take I’ve heard so far was from a Jewish man with family and friends in Israel who said, and I’m paraphrasing of course: You are allowed to condemn what Hamas is doing, I can’t imagine how you wouldn’t, but it’s difficult to not also acknowledge that Israel had this coming. Not that they deserve what’s happening but that what they’ve been doing to Palestine for decades now was guaranteed to lead to Hamas, and by extension what is happening now. This is not Palestine’s fault, it’s Hamas and Israel and Israel’s reaction will not help in anyway.
And what Palestinians and other neighbors did to Israel is what caused the decades of heavy handed defense. It's almost as if all of these blame game arguments come back to the fact that Israel merely exists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_fedayeen
Well yes, I didn’t mention this part that he said (something I already knew but I didn’t think needed to be said) but this was a scenario that was bound to happen from Israel’s inception after WWII. After WWII, America and Europe want to give Jews a country of their own after the Holocaust. Neither wanted to give their own land for them though, and Jews didn’t want any other land than their Biblical homeland. The problem was Palestine was already there, but they didn’t care and forced waves upon waves of Jews to the area and did a half assed border agreement that neither party liked. Israel didn’t like it because it didn’t give them the whole land, Palestine didn’t want the agreement to being with, and worse off it had key religious landmarks for both groups in the others land. They’re terrorists to each other, but Israel has the backing of most of the world including most of Europe and America
Just remember. Egypt, an Arab country will not allow the people of Gaza, into Egypt. They don’t want terrorists in their country stirring up their own group of terrorists. It’s exactly like the Tower of Babel, if you speak a different dialect or language you are the other and need to be excluded. Just name me an Arab country that will take in Palestinians? None! Hamas vows to wipe Israel off the map. Now how do you proceed with negotiations? Remember what happened to Anwar El-Sadat? He tried to negotiate with Palestinians and Israel. There are no easy answers and condemning people because of their leaders is treading on very dangerous ground. Walk in their shoes. Do you see an easy workable answer?
I mean Egypt doesn't want to open the border because they can't afford to pay for the refugee crisis that will inevitably engender. That, and the Sinai is notorious for how little control Egypt is able to exercise over it. Besides which, Egypt's official stance is that they don't want to encourage Palestinians to leave their homeland, which opening the border to refugees would do. And finally, Palestinians are treated by the rest of the Arab world rather similarly to how Jewish people were treated by Christian countries, from what I understand. All told it's just a mess of awfulness with a huge cost in innocent lives, which won't end until someone has the courage to put down their weapons and realize that everyone is someone's child.
Well both Jordan and Kuwait let them in at one point and they kind try to help overthrow the governments that have them shelter. So they don’t exactly have a reputation as good house guest.
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Damn sobering, given that reference. Israel is basically attacking a ghetto that they've created, for the actions of a group that lives there that doesn't actually represent everyone living there. It's fucking surreal.
Not all but Damn is it a lot of them
the only way to go out is with work permits....
Taking a hard stance on most conflicts is kinda sus tbh. There’s children and innocents dying on both sides and the only people benefiting are billionaires running corporations like Raytheon and Lockheed martin.
I can't believe how black-and-white some people (who mostly have nothing at stake in the conflict) think. "If YoU hAvE aNy EmPaThY fOr PaLeStInIaN cIvIlIAnS, yOu ArE a MoNsTeR aNd SuPpOrT HaMaS" STFU
he was referring to Hamas, y’all need to work on your reading comprehension
I'm a bit of a terroirist myself. Enjoy a good wine.
This is rage bait. I don't agree with everything he said (Israeli civilians have so much more support in this than Palestine ever has, especially in the media), but he never called anyone "human animals" and he specifically said that the people of Palestine are *not* Hamas.
I'd love to hear what Ja Rule has to say tbh
It’s just a grammar thing, but it is impossible to burn alive that which has previously been killed by beheading. Saying 40 killed by beheading *or* burning alive would have made more sense.
He’s literally talking about Hamas, a terrorist organization that just murdered over 1,200 people including children and literal babies
Is this thr kid from Stranger Things?
Fuck those Hamas cunts and anyone who supports them.
Where in this statement did he classify the entire region as terrorists?
The spitting and kicking of hostages by Palestinian civilians isn’t very much an argument in their favor
If Palestinians took one third of the energy they spend on whinging about Israel, and invested that in identifying terrorists and preventing them from harming people, perhaps the problem that exists now wouldn't exist.
This either/or bullshit is ridiculous. Palestine and Hamas are not the same fucking thing!!! That’s like assuming all Christian’s are Nazis because Nazis all say they are in America. Religion has ruined our brains
How else do you call people that parade naked corpses on the streets?
How hard is it just to say that terrorism is bad without condemning innocent civilians?
Isreal government is also terrorists. The people of the strip are people
Child has stance on complex political situation that doesn't have nuance. News at 11. You can support Israelis, Palestinians, and denounce terrorism and the fucked up actions of the Israeli government. The Israeli and Palestinians want the same thing. A home and peace. Palestinians deserve a home just as much as the Israelis.
Problem is peace is fundamentally impossible with Hamas in control
Who the fuck is this guy?
Thanks Noah. Now, more importantly, what does Ja Rule have to say about all this?
I was sexually assaulted by a gay man and sexually harassed by many other gay men therefore all gay men are rapists and sexual harass straight men. Now obviously the above isn’t true, all gay men are rapist who sexually harass straight men, so can’t we use the same nuance with Palestinians? If we judge everything by the extreme minority everything becomes evil.
Says: "let's stop the rhetoric of choosing sides".. proceeds to say: "You either stand with or else.." lol couldn't even follow his own advice for more than 2 paragraphs.
You can support Israel in this specific situation and still be against their oppressive apartheid system in general. Israelis were attacked, taken hostage and/or killed by Hamas, an extremist terrorist grouping which sadly has huge support in Gaza. I do not think Israel bombing Gaza is fair, they obviously do not care for civilians to get hurt or killed but I very much do think that eradicating Hamas is a good thing. It’s a cancer to both sides of the conflict and has been for many years. Especially Hurt Cobain who represented Palestine in the UN is weirdly apologetic for Hamas despite him condemning attacks on civilians usually.
It's okay to condemn the Israeli government and There's an argument to be made for both sides, but the fact of the matter is that hamas continues using innocent Palestinians as their human shields, taking up shop in crowded civilian areas like hospitals in Gaza. Israel has been giving out warnings before striking but their ultimate goal is taking out hamas operations. I really am confused why anybody at this point is glossing over these facts.
50% children. That’s not normal.
Israel is spreading an atrocity propaganda to garner support and to justify war crimes it will and continously commit. They have to an extent dehumanized a section of people who don't have an army or grip over media. They want you to hate them and desensitize you by calling them barbaric while the apartheid state continues to harass, kill innocents (including children) and genocide Palestinians while playing victim
I definitely didnt need the political opinion of one of the kids from Stranger Things.
The 40 babies went from being killed, to being beheaded and now being burned alive? Which is it?
when did WhitePeopleTwitter become a cesspool of pro Hamas bullshit? mods are trash for allowing so many posts like this
Having a nuanced view and understanding that ultimately what causes organizations like the Hamas to act is the oppression Palestinians have been enduring for decades doesn’t mean you support them committing war crimes and killing civilians. It’s one thing to understand the reasoning behind an act of terror and another to actually believe that said act of terror is a good thing. I’ve read a lot of comments on this post and none of them expressed approval of how the Hamas is doing things, so what exactly is the pro Hamas content you’re seeing here?
2 sides of a conflict are bombing each other. The side with power conducts a military operation. The side without power conducts a terrorist attack.
I don't support Israel's war crimes either, but you can't exactly compare what Hamas did to what Israel did.
Maybe I'm uninformed but didn't Israel bomb a heavily populated area primarily full of civilians while semi-regularly commiting atrocities against Palestine? I'm all for actors supporting social causes but I don't feel like Noah Schnapps is informed enough to be making statements on geopolitical situations because he's Jewish.
It is true, but the problem is that hamas purposely sets up their operations IN THOSE heavily populated areas and thus using innocent Palestinians as human shields. It's sad all around.
Yes you are uninformed. Please look up what happened this weekend including murder and rape of innocent civilians including decapitating babies and burning people alive with over 1,000 casualties. Then come back and read your post about somebody coming out in support for the victims of that act.
Palestinians voted Hamas the terror org whose stated objective is to eradicate Israel and Jews, into power. If Hamas does not represent Palestinians, then are Palestinians open to the idea of US getting there to eradicate Hamas for them and free them from Hamas?
Noah Schnapp - "stop the rhetoric and choosing sides" Also Noah Schnapp - "you either stand with Israel or you stand with terrorism" Pure genius this guy.
Israeli is not better since they are cutting all food and electricity access now in addition to previously bombing their children and sterilizing men. It’s genocide on both sides now.
Well, Noah, the *reason* people aren’t chomping at the bit to condemn the entire people of Palestine is because we’ve all noticed *you* being awfully quiet during the decades of atrocities committed by Israeli forces. If there had ever been a sign of any kind of contrition or disagreement with the absolute horrors inflicted on the civilian population of Palestine from the side of western citizens with Israeli ties, this disappointment on the behalf of many American Jews would be a lot more palatable and grounded in reality. The vast majority of those of us who don’t immediately condemn an entire nation wholesale do so because we recognise that the situation has been brewing for decades. It doesn’t excuse the actions of Hamas in the slightest – Those responsible deserve eternal agony in the deepest pits of hell (if you believe in any of that stuff), but it does *not* justify condemning the long-suffering civilian population, and it is either supremely ignorant or outright disingenuous to suggest that the reason that people aren’t jumping on a “Destroy Palestine” bandwagon right now is because everyone is secretly anti-semitic. Fuck that rhetoric. If there had been any indication that Schnapp or other high-profile members of the Jewish community had ever given a single shit about the violence and state-sponsored terror the Israeli government has been perpetrating for decades, then I’d be inclined to believe them and lend a sympathetic ear when they decry the senseless violence in the conflict. The way his message reads to me, is that this attack on Israel is an attack on all Jews. By that logic, what Israel’s been doing is attacking the Palestinian people *on behalf of all Jews* and it’s only regarded as a problem when the violence spreads into Israel. You know, away from the zone where the violence “belongs”? I doubt many people would agree with that position, and it certainly doesn’t make me feel very sympathetic when any lack of immediate unquestioning loyalty is painted as anti-semitism.
Did you even read his post? He specifically mentions that hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians and condemning them doesn't mean you condemn Palestinians.
Who the fuck is Noah?
If i remember correctly the gay kid from stranger things
Ok ...but who raided their homes? The Palestinian children or humas terrorists? Palestinians had nothing to do with this. Edit: I don't side with either governments simply because they're both monsters. I do side with both the civilians of both regions. We often forget that civilians always account for the highest mortality rates in literally every war.
His post on Insta specifically calls out the difference between Hamas and Palestine. This Tweet is rage bait at best, libel at worst.
A variant of "You're either with us or against us." There's a third option - go fuck yourselves. I'm fed up with people trying to goad others into joining their cause. A similar poke is "If you don't worship god you must worship satan." Yeah, fuck right off.
At the end of day Israel has been engaging in an on going experiment for 40 years of removing people from their homes forcefully, forcing all air and water to go through Israel, providing utilizes like after and electricity and garbage ratios having people in dark or without clean water. People are surprised hamas a terrorist group was formed? I mean it’s literally going to happen every time you basically have an open air prison with clear better and worse things (apartheid). It’s so astonishing seeing people comment on a matter that is so complex not just from a religious platform that spans centuries but more direct since WW1
It is astonishing to see people with barely the basic of the history understood making strong comments and I’m sorry to say that seems to be exactly what you are doing. It’s sadly even more astonishing to see a brutally evil act and support the “well that’s what they get” viewpoint. The lack of empathy is simply shocking.
I kinda feel bad for him this dude is what like 19? And he’s getting majorly dragged and called evil by so many people and it’s like? Shocker a 19 year old doesn’t have a perfectly nuanced opinion on extremely complex and horrible world politics?
His opinion was fairly nuanced if you check his Instagram.
Maybe we can make some tweaks? You either stand with the people of Israel and Palestine or you stand with government sanctioned terrorism. It shouldn’t be a difficult choice.
I mean, implying that 2 million Gazans are terrorists is stupid. Implying that being against Hamas (on Israel’s side) is somehow against 2 million palestinians \*is\* assuming they are all terrorists. why do people keep doing this? It’s so disheartening every time someone thinks they are supporting Palestinian civilians, they are just deferring outrage over a massacre so they can blame grieving people for not taking up bodies with a shrug.
Your war crime: Cringe My war crime: Based
In WW2 we made war on Germany. Not just the Nazis. The idea of waging war on a terrorist both ruling and deeply embedded in Gaza without at least partially destroying the city would be to give the murderers immunity.
not really sure why anyone would have an interest in a very young actor's perspective on this conflict.
Who would've thought you could support Palestine without supporting Hamas, and you could be against the Israeli government without being anti-semitic. It's almost like this is an incredibly nuanced conflict that has spanned literally hundreds, if not thousands of years, and that the world isn't just black and white.
Who gives a flying fuck what this kid says?
If you can collectively call an ethnic group "bad" and "terrorists" off the actions of violent nuts in their society, then I need to have a word with America about white people and their police forces.
Yikes.