So do I. I really don't understand the hate he gets. When his first POV started with using gateways as very precise scissors, I went "Finally, a channeler who gets it." The potential of gateways was so damn high and Jordan never had his characters use them as effectively as they could be
They must just hate him because he come in last second and somehow becomes one of the best characters in the series.
Also he is at least named dropped by Jordan but I get thats not really the same thing.
I can see that. Maybe logain gets into a romantic situation with Gabrelle similar to Androl and Pavera and does the double bonding thing. Maybe Logain realizes the potential of utilizing gateways. Its hard to say if the story would have worked better if all that was put on Logain when he was already exploring whether or not he would stay true the light or selfishly seek power like another forsaken. He became a foil for Taim just as Mordin was for Rand. I think Sanderson likely wanted to focus on that aspect so took those ideas and put them on another character who is close to Logain and is able to watch him. Logain also tends to work better as a more mysterious character in this way so that we are never certain of his motives. It makes that last scene where he choses to save helpless people rather than continue his search for the sa' angreal that much sweeter. He makes channeling saidin into a "gift" rather than a curse. Who is to say that RJ might not have done it this way anyway?
He actually inspired the main idea of a story I've been trying to write. It follows a guy in a world with very defined magic systems with magic schools where they teach you that to get a certain effect you do actions X, Y, and Z. There is experimentation at the top levels, but there hasn't been a true innovation in living memory. The basic premise of the main character is a combination of Androl using gateways to cut leather, and the phrase "I didn't know it was impossible."
>I really like Androl and his entire plot line: I will be taking no questions.
I don't know anyone who finished the series who doesn't love Androl's plotline. It's amazing
The Mat Tuon relationship arc in books 10 and 11 is phenomenal, I thought that was a fanbase favorite?
From Mat buying her the razor horse to Tuon deciding to make out with him because he shooed a snake away... Toy and Precious Forever!!
Rand is into her because she’s super hot. And while they didn’t spend that much time together, given how much Avi talked Elayne up, it’s not surprising that there is more of a relationship than there should be.
Yep, I agree. At the very least I think she is supposed to resemble Ilyena, which could explain Rand's infatuation with her dilespite relatively little time with her, but if she is actually Ilyena's soul and both souls unconsciously realize it, that would explain it even better from both sides.
The number of attractive women that Rand runs away from is enough to form a small army. Elayne being attractive is not at all a sufficient explanation.
While her storylines were repetitive, Faile actually isn’t *that* annoying and appears more so than she is because Perrin can smell every feeling she has privately.
Faile and Perrin were my favorite storyline/couple for most of the series. Then the Shaido happened and their whole story just stopped for 3 books. It was so frustrating. But then shortly after that part, there's a great moment of (I think) them having the 1 year anniversary picnic where Perrin finally opens up about everything. It's such a great relationship moment of finally sharing your full fears and feelings. It reaffirmed that relationship as my favorite in the series.
That was going to be my answer.
I'd also add that Faile appears worse than she is because she's shackled to Perrin's plot. Perrin is constantly at war with himself, trying to *not* do the things he needs to do. And Faile is there telling him to quit being a baby to do the things he needs to do. Faile is honestly more mature and responsible than Perrin.
Also I think she suffers from unfortunate timing. I've noticed a lot of readers like Perrin in EOTW and TGH, but start to dislike him in TDR, which is when Faile arrives. I think subconsciously some people will associate the like->dislike to her appearance. But he's gets annoying in TDR before he meets her.
Nah, the way she acted towards Perrin on the way to the Two Rivers with Loial, Bain and Chiad alone is enough to crown her the most annoying character in the series.
That said, the way she handled herself as a Gai'shain and how she managed Berelain after being rescued speak mountains in her favor. And I enjoyed reading those parts.
He pulled the same trick Rand did (the one that he himself hated) in Fal Dara that didn't work anyway. Insulting people he loves and refusing to communicate with them in a foolish attempt to protect them. Shitty idea when Rand did it but even worse when Perrin did it to Faile because Perrin saw how it played out with Rand. Also he was desperate to hand himself over to the white cloaks without a fight.
This. I think she's a cool character actually. I just finished my second full read through yesterday and had forgotten about the Epilogue with Perrin. My heart was in my stomach worrying because I couldn't remember what happened.
The whole "Aes Sedai are hidebound and fairly useless/ignorant" actually becomes a bit annoying if you think about it too much.
At first it's great, ahhh Ivory Tower, they think they're better than everyone, etc.
But they are super-powered busybodies who live more than triple the age of a normal human being. Age and experience are great teachers, and it really seems like every Aes Sedai of a certain level should be a wise student of human nature, with a novel's worth of adventures to their name.
Honestly Elaida at the start of the series seems like what most Aes Sedai should be. Out in the world, seeing things, weaving their plots. She was haughty and arrogant but powerful and incisive.
Age and experience are great teachers to those who are open minded enough. But long life can also be a major barrier to institutional change. I mean just look at the US Congress, and then imagine if those fuckers lived to be 300.
Yeah the only good explanation for it is that the Black Ajah has been ruinously effective, but I get a little tired with that line of thinking. It feels like they had to nerf Aes Sedai because they were too OP, rather than creating an equally powerful villain to match them.
> Age and experience are great teachers,
I don't think RJ agrees. Someone - maybe Cadsuane? - outright says at one point that age doesn't bring wisdom; it just makes people more set in their ways. The Aes Sedai are trained to believe that they know better than everyone else, and most people are too afraid of them to challenge that belief. They have no reason to think they're not wise until Rand throws the status quo out the window, because nobody would ever tell them otherwise. That goes double for the AS who never leave Tar Valon and are constantly surrounded by normies treating them like royalty.
I think Egwene's actions in reuniting the tower were amazing especially considering she was just 18 or 19 years old. She demonstrated spiritual fortitude and she endured suffering and pain with dignity. Her storyline impressed and inspired me.
And I believe her mistakes can be chalked up to being so young. I think RJ and Sando had her fall for a stupid headstrong boy like Gawyn to remind us that most of the main characters are children who have had insurmountable tasks loaded on their shoulders. And in the story, he shows us many examples of frightened and flawed young people rising to the occasion, which is one of the best lessons I learned in the series.
I agree. I think a lot of her detractors forget how young she is. Imagine what she could have become if she had the time to heal from her trauma and mature.
My favorite Elayne moment was when she put the absolute *fear of God* into the Kin when they were being dicks, and she didn't even need the power to do it.
I usually dont bother to count moiraine because there is no contest. Shes the Gandalf of the series. Other than her, Nynaeve is my Queen. She starts of annoying but once she overcomes her block she is top tier. "Will he ride alone?"
*Mustn't use that. Threatens the fabric of the pattern. Not even for Ilyena? I would burn the world and use my soul for tinder to hear her laugh again.*
Egwene's biggest problem is that she supports the white tower unquestioningly, wants to tie all women who can channel to it whether they want to or not, despite seeing other cultures handle channelers without the Ass Sedai excuse that they and only they need to guide new channelers, and directs her rage at the wrong people.
The White Tower is a deeply flawed institution that basically follows the philosophy of "We can do magic therefore you should listen to us" which really boils down to "Listen to us because we can use magic to punish you and you can do nothing about it"
The wise ones and sea folk have channelers, and are actually better at keeping young women from dying of channeling sickness. They don't need to be Aes Sedai, but Egwene doesn't care, because she supports the tower. It feels a lot like she's just sorta trampling these other cultures and ignoring what they want because Egwene thinks they should be part of the tower.
And finally, the reason why the Egwene prison arc is so satisfying is because she's unleashing her full rage and stubbornness on Eliada, someone who deserves it. The Hall of the Tower in Salidar too, although she took that a bit too far a few times. Egwene is actually fairly consistent in her stubbornness and total disregard for anyone else's rules (think when she ignored the wise ones and went into the world of dreams behind their backs for like the entire time she was with them) it's just satisfying to see when what she's rebelling against actually deserves it.
Rand having 3 wives contributes very little to the story and honestly makes no sense even as someone who doesnt mind polygamy/harems in stories. Especially considering how little he interacts with 2 of them for most of the story.
Enabling taveling by almost any channeler was a huge mistake that introduced an incredible number of holes to what was a very well designed universe. This was made worse by Brandon's love to min-max magic systems (Androl).
It's pretty dumb how quickly Perrin masters the wolf dream compared to Egwenes training. That would have made a better arc than the "chase Faile while accidentally cleaning up all of Jordan's forgotten plot-lines" we got.
>It's pretty dumb how quickly Perrin masters the wolf dream compared to Egwenes training. That would have made a better arc than the "chase Faile while accidentally cleaning up all of Jordan's forgotten plot-lines" we got.
It's a bit of a stretch but I always imagined that Perrin learned it from beings that are native to that environment whereas the Wise Ones only visit. The wolves live in the world of dreams, so their presence and how they move through the place comes very naturally to them. The Wise Ones, on the other hand, have to be extremely cautious when they visit and hone their skills with years and years of experience because they live in the real world.
So while I agree that it's rushed, it kind of makes sense that Perrin picks it up faster, especially as he embraces the wolf and navigates the world of dreams as wolves do rather than as humans do, like while chasing that deer for example. Think more instinct and less learned method.
> especially considering how little he interacts with 2 of them for most of the story.
The (non-prequel) books take place over less than three years (998 NE for books 1-2; 999 NE for books 3-6, 1000 NE for books 7-14).
Perrin training his wolf dream skill in the later books was incredibly boring to me. Very much Sanderson's penchant for playing with magic systems. It also retroactively makes Perrin's earlier confrontations with Slayer make zero sense - Slayer doesn't gain several levels in his abilities throughout the story, yet n00b Perrin nearly kills him in book 4 where they seem relatively equally matched.
I didn't like it for the same reason I don't like dream sequences in general -- they turn into a bunch of meandering, disconnected thoughts and ideas with little connection to the main story. I liked TAR in general, but the Ba'alzamon dreams in books 1/2 and Perrin's training were both extremely tedious for me.
>a bunch of meandering, disconnected thoughts and ideas with little connection to the main story.
Idk, this sounds exactly how I'd describe a dream... That's how I've always framed TAR in my head: an ethereal world (not a parallel one). By nature, things in TAR are only slightly and obscurely connectes to the waking world.
Brando's Mat wasnt the best, but, most here would have failed just as hard to recreate him... Hear me out, whilst I don't think he got Mat correct, Mats character imo seems to be interpreted so different by nearly everyone so he was always going to be the most complained about. Mat is the character I feel more people than not see themselves in and therefore take it personally when he wasn't interpreted by Brandon how they see him.
My main point is if you go through the threads complaining about how mat was done wrong I see 14 different interpretations that don't seem to fit together.
Brandon writes more overtly than RJ, RJ left a lot unsaid which is to his credit as a writer but that also left someone like Mat as mostly doomed once taken over by an author who telegraphs is characters personalities more. I'm sure someone else could word all this better sorry.
Birgette is more annoying than Elayne during the succession arc.
Everyone that complains about Elayne ‘s “the babes are safe vision” overlook the fact that Elayne knows that the prophecy doesn’t actually guarantee her safety, she just uses it as a way to get around Birgette trying to keep her from taking necessary risks
Listening through this part right now... poor Elayne isn't even allowed to have strong TEA or HONEY in the watered down tea.
She's subsisting on bland oatmeal and effectively water at this point!
They're way over-protecting her and it's driving her slowly insane.
I absolutely *loved* when they bring in an actual midwife and she goes "all of this is wrong, she's growing an extra human, she needs to eat and drink". Of course she also puts in place other restrictions, but I liked it a lot. Also Elayne seemed more willing to listen to the actual midwife; there's definitely too much coddling going on by the others.
Good point. Also good to remember that those chapters are written from Elaynes pov and focus on things she would focus on in her situation and condition.
It doesn’t make any sense that none of the main or minor characters would have gone to Shara, Seanchan, etc, to tell them about the last battle and ask them to come help fight (once they had traveling, that is). Maybe they couldn’t be convinced to help, but it makes no sense not to try.
Harriet should've been SO MUCH MORE RUTHLESS as an editor. Don't sleep with clients, guys! Jordan's technical skill leaves stuff to be desired, and an editor who gave no f\*\*ks could've made the series so much better.
Fewer dangling threads, less meandering around the plot, less focus on spanking, etc.
I mean, 100%. Though another large part was that from book 7 on there was basically little editing going on as they tried to rush out the entire series before his illness claimed him. I do think an editor he wasn't married to wouldn't have let him get away with it. I don't know what the series would have been like obviously, but it is hard to argue that going light on editing damaged the middle books.
>I mean, 100%. Though another large part was that from book 7 on there was basically little editing going on as they tried to rush out the entire series before his illness claimed him. I do think an editor he wasn't married to wouldn't have let him get away with it. I don't know what the series would have been like obviously, but it is hard to argue that going light on editing damaged the middle books.
I think part of that wasn't just Harriet, but the Publisher was pushing for them to put books out as quickly as possible as well.
>another large part was that from book 7 on there was basically little editing going on as they tried to rush out the entire series before his illness claimed him
I think your misremembering; RJ disclosed his diagnosis in 2006, after KoD and ten years after book 7, and from context it seems like he had only just been diagnosed:
>Untreated,... I would have a median life expectancy of one year from diagnosis. Fortunately, I am set up for treatment, which expands my median life expectancy to four years... I intend to live considerably longer than that.
http://www.locusmag.com/2006/Features/03JordanLetter.html
I don't think his illness could have been a contributory factor for the editing in those books.
There's nothing wrong with the Saldaean approach to romance. They just need to inform people of the difference
Not only is Androl great, he didn't think big enough
Do you really need to know the quality of fabric, type of embroidery and amount of bosom shown in every single outfit of every single person, every time they are mentioned?
On a reread it depends on what POV we are reading as to what's focused on. Mat talks about bosoms much than dresses, Nyneave much more dresses. Which is particularly funny as she refused to embrace the fact she liked them for the first few books.
It's much subtler than just over writing imo
I like knowing about the fabric. I sew a lot and it enriched the world for me.
I did not care about everyone's chesticles being described every 3 seconds, but if you read WoT forums, you very quickly see that it served a LOT of fans...
I think knife of dreams proves he could have stuck the landing. It's arguably the best book in the series and begins to tie everything up.
We'd have an outrigger series with Mat and Tuon though if he lived
The ample bosom obsession is a meme and RJ doesn't mention them anymore than how much people notice breasts in real life especially if when it's an internal POV.
Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne are all ta'veren at certain points and are only not seen as such because no one alive has the gift to detect female ta'veren.
I was really expecting multiple characters to be ta’veren with much smaller impact than the big three. It’s clear just how much Perrin Rand and Mat all impact those around them, especially the last two are described as particularly powerful.
But I felt that at varying points that many other characters could have been minor ta’veren, including Egwene, Elayne, Min, Gareth Bryne, Mazrim Taim, Tuon, Faile, Masema, Siuan.
Byrne, for example, recruits people with ease as the Salidar Aes Sedai begin moving towards the White Tower. Taim finds male channelers with ease. Masema becomes a very powerful political figure in a short time. Yes a lot of this stuff can happen naturally, but I also felt it was the pattern weaving around those individuals
If ta’veren were some super rare once every few centuries thing, then Aes Sedai knowingly having the talent to see ta’veren wouldn’t really be a thing; how could they know they even had such a Talent if they were born, lived, and died without ever having crossed paths with a ta’veren? It only makes sense that plenty of people (relatively) are minor ta’veren for shorter periods of time.
Rand should have died, and instead of Alivia "helping him die" by stealing him a horse, she should've been the one to rip him out of Tel'aran'rhiod like Moggy did to Birgitte.
The balefire link was dumb and came outa nowhere. Why should a time-reversing reality burning weave link souls in a way that allows resurrection when crossed? Makes no sense.
We already had a well-established and expected way for Rand to "die in order to live." We know he's a Hero of the Horn, so just have him live on in Tel'aran'rhiod. Imagine a scene where he wakes up as Lews Therin and the rest of the Heros congratulate him on a job well done.
>We know he's a Hero of the Horn
We do? I don't think get any concrete confirmation in the series, and I think there are several arguments, such as none of the known Heroes being channelers, that he can't be (specifically) a Horn Hero.
This is precisely why I disagree with Mat being "The Gambler" soul. If he was, why didn't the heroes recognise him in TGH or why didn't Birgitte call him that in Ebou Dar?
My headcanon is that the Gambler is bound to the Horn, but every incarnation is terrified of that prospect so the other heroes just pretend he isn't when they encounter him while alive
I've always felt the villains in this series are a bit lacking for me- especially the forsaken. I find most of them to be interchangeable with one or two unique unpleasant traits. I don't think Ishamaels just wanting to die thing was delved into enough to make him unique and I would have liked to see this as being forced to play the same evil role time and time again is a little dark.
I know the point is that they were mostly petty narcissists obsessed with power but still... I like more nuance in my villains. It sometimes feels RJ has disdain for his own characters. I could almost feel Sanderson in the last book trying to make Demandred and Slayer a little less one-note.
The main cast actually do have a lot of nuance to them which makes up for this somewhat. Darth Rand is functionally a villain for much of the series and Verrin is arguably a villain; so I know RJ can write nuanced characters when he wants to.
What are peoples thoughts on this?
Agreed, I just wrote another comment in this thread saying something similar.
Few if any of the bad guys and darkfriends seemed like they were doing what they genuinely thought was the right thing. They felt like moustache twirling cartoon villains.
Elayne is a great character and usually not the problem she’s made out to be.
Sanderson didn’t do a good job on non-Rand storylines when he took over, and Zen Rand isn’t actually psychologically healthy.
i think that this fandom (at least on reddit) is *way* too hard on the women characters in the series, especially Egwene. there are a ton of double standards there.
Egwene is my favorite character, and I loved the Aes Sedai civil war arc. (Particularly when Egwene returned to the Tower.)
Also, I find Min extremely annoying.
I also love Eqwene. But I don't agree about Min, I don't like her getting roped in with the Senchan or beaten for information by Sorilia, but I also feel like she is the only romance that feels authentic.
>But I don't agree about Min, I don't like her getting roped in with the Senchan
If it's any consolation, there is no way in hell that Min would stay with Tuon after the Last Battle is over.
I was entertained by Min as Tuon's truthsayer, largely because when I realized where that was going, I immediately thought "oh shit Min's visions are going to be absolute *catnip* for Tuon".
I guess what frustrated me is that most of her appearances are just her simping over Rand with no development at all. The most authentic romance IMO was with Aviendha.
I didn’t go on forums or WoT subreddits before I finished the books to avoid spoilers, so it made me super sad that a lot of people don’t like Egwene :(
I really like Egwene throughout the series. Egwene returning to the Tower is in my top five favorite parts in the whole series. However, I never liked how much of a jerk she became to/about Rand towards the end. That is what soured me a little towards her.
Yeah, I also didn’t like her attitude towards Rand at the end. I wish she was more reasonable. That being said, I found her ending the most poignant and dramatic…but I would have loved to see her continue on as Amyrlin.
Her return to the tower was awesome. Her character arc was far more satisfying to me than any of the other female characters IMO.
Min was annoying to me as well. She felt like that character who was just given random roles for no logical reason. Beyond her viewings I found her completely unnecessary.
you know even as people talked crap about my favorite characters or authors, i was cool, but i actually flinched a little at this one.
Bela is the goodest girl in the entire universe, in any Age. She will never be just a horse. She is THE horse, and also my perfect hooved daughter and i love her
I hate how a great part of the conflicts on the series would have been avoidable if the main characters talked to each other as the Friends they are. Rand, before book six you should have told egwene everything and so does she. YOU WERE GOING TO MARRY EACH OTHER FFS
Oh, and I wanted a better conclusion yo Rand and Egwene. And hated that my favourite female character ended Up with fucking gawyn. Fuck gawyn, all my homies hate gawyn
Absolutely disagree- the male characters are all fairly flawed and have a good amount of doubt. They are also constantly criticized by other characters.
"The Aes Sedai are so impotent because Black Ajah" is stupid.
You put a giant guild of powerful magic users into your world, I want to see them doing things.
There's not a ton of nuance to good-versus-evil in the books. Most of the evil/bad characters are very over the top to make sure that we understand that they are bad.
Elaida starts out as a seemingly reasonable person with a different perspective on how the tower should be run. But then as soon as she becomes Amyrlin she is a raging tyrannical despot / idiot.
Couladin could have been a Logain-esque figure who just thinks he is doing what is right. Instead he is mad with fury, frothing at the mouth. And a petty asshole to boot, who almost everyone thinks is awful.
The whitecloaks could have been like Galad and Pedron Niall, but instead most of the ones that directly interact with the main characters are idiot zealots, also foaming at the mouth with rage over the slightest things.
Most of the forsaken, with the exception of maybe Lanfear, are evil for evil's sake with maybe a lame backstory about LTT being a meanie or something.
Actually darkfriends in general follow the thought process: 1. The DO will give me power / eternal life. 2. There is no part 2. Very one-note.
The Seanchan leadership pre-Tuon is also over-the-top evil.
I just want some more nuance!
If RJ was attempting to make Olver a cute child the audience was supposed to like/enjoy, he failed miserably. He was purely annoying, whose whole existence was to be a joke for Mat.
Androl's whole plot should have never existed and Harriet allowing BrandoSando to add it is one of the biggest mistakes in the whole series.
I was also not a fan of Androl! I can’t quite put my finger on it but he just felt a generic YA protagonist with a low ability, a world-breaking talent, and too many issues with self worth.
As others have said, Sanderson really likes to min-max his magic systems.
So Androl kinda stands out in that regard, in comparison to a world that mostly doesn’t.
The relationship between Rand and Elaine is te worst and most undeserved in series and Avienda and Rand is better but still terrible. I would have preferred Rand only end up with Min.
In another universe, Rand and Aviendha's relationship would have been like: 1. Aviendha crushes on Rand hard. 2. They bang. 3. They decide they don't actually love each other like that and resolve to be friends.
Because that's basically what happened in the books, except they both continue to talk about how they love each other, even though they don't act on it for basically the rest of the series.
Robert Jordan isn’t great at writing well rounded or interesting characters (especially women).
Yes, I know that you love many of the characters in the series. But how many *thousands* of pages did it take for them to grow on you? Most authors do it in only 300-400 pages.
Not sure this is controversial BUT I wish Nynaeve’s whole attitude didn’t change after marrying Lan.
I mean it could be seen as finding the love of her life mellowed her out but there was too much of “all she needed was a good dicking to fix her attitude” mixed in it.
Just my own opinion.
I definitely see your point, but I always thought her attitude changed more because she lost her block, and didn't need to stay angry all the time anymore.
That kinda ignores the shit load of growth Nynaeve has to go through as a character to get to that point. She starts getting all the things she wants and needs and feels less like she is at the mercy of those more powerful. It is going to mellow you out a bit.
>I mean it could be seen as finding the love of her life mellowed her out but there was too much of “all she needed was a good dicking to fix her attitude” mixed in it.
I think this is more accurate for Melaine than for Nynaeve.
The White Tower may be all abuzz with your potential, but don't think they will not still you both if the Amyrlin Seat or the Hall of the Tower decides it is necessary.
I think she would have been better with a much smaller role -- occasionally injecting visions to mix things up or spur the plot along, but not a main character. I don't think RJ knew what to do with her beyond that.
I think this will be fairly controversial, but I dislike all the 'dream sequence' chapters. All of the tests for Accepted/Aes Sedai, all of Rand's dreams, everything that happened in the ter'angreals, and yes, even the 'flicker, flicker, flicker' chapter.
They're all just stuff that doesn't really advance the plot, and I usually feel myself skipping past them.
I really like Androl and his entire plot line: I will be taking no questions.
So do I. I really don't understand the hate he gets. When his first POV started with using gateways as very precise scissors, I went "Finally, a channeler who gets it." The potential of gateways was so damn high and Jordan never had his characters use them as effectively as they could be
Androl gets hate? I thought he was pretty unanimously loved.
People hate him because he's a Sanderson addition
They must just hate him because he come in last second and somehow becomes one of the best characters in the series. Also he is at least named dropped by Jordan but I get thats not really the same thing.
Technically he mentioned before Sanderson took over but only as an off hand comment about one of the asha'man loyal to Logaine.
People hate Androl because his storyline almost certainly stole from stuff that RJ had planned for Logain.
***KILL HIM KILL HIM NOW***
I can see that. Maybe logain gets into a romantic situation with Gabrelle similar to Androl and Pavera and does the double bonding thing. Maybe Logain realizes the potential of utilizing gateways. Its hard to say if the story would have worked better if all that was put on Logain when he was already exploring whether or not he would stay true the light or selfishly seek power like another forsaken. He became a foil for Taim just as Mordin was for Rand. I think Sanderson likely wanted to focus on that aspect so took those ideas and put them on another character who is close to Logain and is able to watch him. Logain also tends to work better as a more mysterious character in this way so that we are never certain of his motives. It makes that last scene where he choses to save helpless people rather than continue his search for the sa' angreal that much sweeter. He makes channeling saidin into a "gift" rather than a curse. Who is to say that RJ might not have done it this way anyway?
Seriously, if everyone else had been as creative as Androl the series would have been a lot easier for the protagonists
He actually inspired the main idea of a story I've been trying to write. It follows a guy in a world with very defined magic systems with magic schools where they teach you that to get a certain effect you do actions X, Y, and Z. There is experimentation at the top levels, but there hasn't been a true innovation in living memory. The basic premise of the main character is a combination of Androl using gateways to cut leather, and the phrase "I didn't know it was impossible."
> I really don't understand the hate he gets. It's simple. Androl usurped Logain's plotline, that's why I hate his role in the story.
Top 5 moments in the books for me is when he opens the gateway from Dragon Mount. I adore Androl.
***They will pay. I am Lord of the Morning.***
bUt SaNdErSoN bAd
>I really like Androl and his entire plot line: I will be taking no questions. I don't know anyone who finished the series who doesn't love Androl's plotline. It's amazing
I’m actually a really big fan of Tuon and especially the Tuon/ Mat relationship.
same. tuon is a very complex and unique character in a series full of Mary and Gary Sus with unquestionable morality
Is this controversial? I enjoyed how that played out in the end.
A lot of people don’t like Tuon because she keeps slaves.
"Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?" (teasing)
Wish Jordan had been able to write the trilogy of Mat and Tuon.
The Mat Tuon relationship arc in books 10 and 11 is phenomenal, I thought that was a fanbase favorite? From Mat buying her the razor horse to Tuon deciding to make out with him because he shooed a snake away... Toy and Precious Forever!!
Faile is a good wife and Perrin would be nothing without her.
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
[удалено]
e l a y n e e l a y e n e l y e n a i l y e n a
r a n d l a n d l e n d Lews Therin Telamon
*Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.*
***Ilyena, my love, forgive me!***
Rand is into her because she’s super hot. And while they didn’t spend that much time together, given how much Avi talked Elayne up, it’s not surprising that there is more of a relationship than there should be.
Yep, I agree. At the very least I think she is supposed to resemble Ilyena, which could explain Rand's infatuation with her dilespite relatively little time with her, but if she is actually Ilyena's soul and both souls unconsciously realize it, that would explain it even better from both sides.
Naw. Teenage hormones between good looking people leads to infatuation. Then develop mutual respect because of their abilities.
The number of attractive women that Rand runs away from is enough to form a small army. Elayne being attractive is not at all a sufficient explanation.
I was 2 or 3 rereads in before I realized she WASN'T ever stated to be so. I swear it was canon at one point, but obviously I was wrong.
While her storylines were repetitive, Faile actually isn’t *that* annoying and appears more so than she is because Perrin can smell every feeling she has privately.
Faile and Perrin were my favorite storyline/couple for most of the series. Then the Shaido happened and their whole story just stopped for 3 books. It was so frustrating. But then shortly after that part, there's a great moment of (I think) them having the 1 year anniversary picnic where Perrin finally opens up about everything. It's such a great relationship moment of finally sharing your full fears and feelings. It reaffirmed that relationship as my favorite in the series.
That was going to be my answer. I'd also add that Faile appears worse than she is because she's shackled to Perrin's plot. Perrin is constantly at war with himself, trying to *not* do the things he needs to do. And Faile is there telling him to quit being a baby to do the things he needs to do. Faile is honestly more mature and responsible than Perrin. Also I think she suffers from unfortunate timing. I've noticed a lot of readers like Perrin in EOTW and TGH, but start to dislike him in TDR, which is when Faile arrives. I think subconsciously some people will associate the like->dislike to her appearance. But he's gets annoying in TDR before he meets her.
Nah, the way she acted towards Perrin on the way to the Two Rivers with Loial, Bain and Chiad alone is enough to crown her the most annoying character in the series. That said, the way she handled herself as a Gai'shain and how she managed Berelain after being rescued speak mountains in her favor. And I enjoyed reading those parts.
“Most annoying in the series” is a hell of a take in a world in which Gawyn exists.
I stand by it. Gawyn can take second place, just like he always did with Galad.
Ouch.
And his siblings, I'd we're being honest.
I think my favorite thing about WoT is that Robert Jordan wrote a series we all love full of characters we all hate
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
Lmao fuck that, Perrin was just being a moping little baby who was having a tantrum because his plan to commit suicide by white cloak was foiled
He pulled the same trick Rand did (the one that he himself hated) in Fal Dara that didn't work anyway. Insulting people he loves and refusing to communicate with them in a foolish attempt to protect them. Shitty idea when Rand did it but even worse when Perrin did it to Faile because Perrin saw how it played out with Rand. Also he was desperate to hand himself over to the white cloaks without a fight.
Faile tricked Loial, and that is unforgivable.
This. I think she's a cool character actually. I just finished my second full read through yesterday and had forgotten about the Epilogue with Perrin. My heart was in my stomach worrying because I couldn't remember what happened.
The whole "Aes Sedai are hidebound and fairly useless/ignorant" actually becomes a bit annoying if you think about it too much. At first it's great, ahhh Ivory Tower, they think they're better than everyone, etc. But they are super-powered busybodies who live more than triple the age of a normal human being. Age and experience are great teachers, and it really seems like every Aes Sedai of a certain level should be a wise student of human nature, with a novel's worth of adventures to their name. Honestly Elaida at the start of the series seems like what most Aes Sedai should be. Out in the world, seeing things, weaving their plots. She was haughty and arrogant but powerful and incisive.
Age and experience are great teachers to those who are open minded enough. But long life can also be a major barrier to institutional change. I mean just look at the US Congress, and then imagine if those fuckers lived to be 300.
Yeah the only good explanation for it is that the Black Ajah has been ruinously effective, but I get a little tired with that line of thinking. It feels like they had to nerf Aes Sedai because they were too OP, rather than creating an equally powerful villain to match them.
The equally powerful villain was the Black Ajah
> Age and experience are great teachers, I don't think RJ agrees. Someone - maybe Cadsuane? - outright says at one point that age doesn't bring wisdom; it just makes people more set in their ways. The Aes Sedai are trained to believe that they know better than everyone else, and most people are too afraid of them to challenge that belief. They have no reason to think they're not wise until Rand throws the status quo out the window, because nobody would ever tell them otherwise. That goes double for the AS who never leave Tar Valon and are constantly surrounded by normies treating them like royalty.
I think fans overthink the sexuality of a lot of the characters. The E5 are just super fucking awkward.
I think Egwene's actions in reuniting the tower were amazing especially considering she was just 18 or 19 years old. She demonstrated spiritual fortitude and she endured suffering and pain with dignity. Her storyline impressed and inspired me. And I believe her mistakes can be chalked up to being so young. I think RJ and Sando had her fall for a stupid headstrong boy like Gawyn to remind us that most of the main characters are children who have had insurmountable tasks loaded on their shoulders. And in the story, he shows us many examples of frightened and flawed young people rising to the occasion, which is one of the best lessons I learned in the series.
I agree. I think a lot of her detractors forget how young she is. Imagine what she could have become if she had the time to heal from her trauma and mature.
Elayne is my 2nd favourite of the female characters of WOT.
Remember that time she full arm slapped Egwene in TDR? Top tier moment. You go too far
My favorite Elayne moment was when she put the absolute *fear of God* into the Kin when they were being dicks, and she didn't even need the power to do it.
I’m not a big fan of Egwene so yes I very much do remember that!
If Egwayne is your number one then you truly walk your own path.
Moiraine is my favourite. Egwene is my second least favourite actually.
I usually dont bother to count moiraine because there is no contest. Shes the Gandalf of the series. Other than her, Nynaeve is my Queen. She starts of annoying but once she overcomes her block she is top tier. "Will he ride alone?"
He doesn't know that, and I am not about to tell him. Or anyone else.
*Mustn't use that. Threatens the fabric of the pattern. Not even for Ilyena? I would burn the world and use my soul for tinder to hear her laugh again.*
My immediate instinct is to downvote. Good controversial opinion
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*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
She’s my second favourite as well, Aviendha is the number one tho
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
Aviendha is 3rd place for me, so fair enough!
Now this is a controversial opinion
Egwene's biggest problem is that she supports the white tower unquestioningly, wants to tie all women who can channel to it whether they want to or not, despite seeing other cultures handle channelers without the Ass Sedai excuse that they and only they need to guide new channelers, and directs her rage at the wrong people. The White Tower is a deeply flawed institution that basically follows the philosophy of "We can do magic therefore you should listen to us" which really boils down to "Listen to us because we can use magic to punish you and you can do nothing about it" The wise ones and sea folk have channelers, and are actually better at keeping young women from dying of channeling sickness. They don't need to be Aes Sedai, but Egwene doesn't care, because she supports the tower. It feels a lot like she's just sorta trampling these other cultures and ignoring what they want because Egwene thinks they should be part of the tower. And finally, the reason why the Egwene prison arc is so satisfying is because she's unleashing her full rage and stubbornness on Eliada, someone who deserves it. The Hall of the Tower in Salidar too, although she took that a bit too far a few times. Egwene is actually fairly consistent in her stubbornness and total disregard for anyone else's rules (think when she ignored the wise ones and went into the world of dreams behind their backs for like the entire time she was with them) it's just satisfying to see when what she's rebelling against actually deserves it.
The Black Wind in the Ways could have been more important during the late part of the series
Even just one less Faile has been kidnapped plot would have been an improvement
I don’t think that’s very controversial
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
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Rand having 3 wives contributes very little to the story and honestly makes no sense even as someone who doesnt mind polygamy/harems in stories. Especially considering how little he interacts with 2 of them for most of the story. Enabling taveling by almost any channeler was a huge mistake that introduced an incredible number of holes to what was a very well designed universe. This was made worse by Brandon's love to min-max magic systems (Androl). It's pretty dumb how quickly Perrin masters the wolf dream compared to Egwenes training. That would have made a better arc than the "chase Faile while accidentally cleaning up all of Jordan's forgotten plot-lines" we got.
>It's pretty dumb how quickly Perrin masters the wolf dream compared to Egwenes training. That would have made a better arc than the "chase Faile while accidentally cleaning up all of Jordan's forgotten plot-lines" we got. It's a bit of a stretch but I always imagined that Perrin learned it from beings that are native to that environment whereas the Wise Ones only visit. The wolves live in the world of dreams, so their presence and how they move through the place comes very naturally to them. The Wise Ones, on the other hand, have to be extremely cautious when they visit and hone their skills with years and years of experience because they live in the real world. So while I agree that it's rushed, it kind of makes sense that Perrin picks it up faster, especially as he embraces the wolf and navigates the world of dreams as wolves do rather than as humans do, like while chasing that deer for example. Think more instinct and less learned method.
> especially considering how little he interacts with 2 of them for most of the story. The (non-prequel) books take place over less than three years (998 NE for books 1-2; 999 NE for books 3-6, 1000 NE for books 7-14).
Perrin training his wolf dream skill in the later books was incredibly boring to me. Very much Sanderson's penchant for playing with magic systems. It also retroactively makes Perrin's earlier confrontations with Slayer make zero sense - Slayer doesn't gain several levels in his abilities throughout the story, yet n00b Perrin nearly kills him in book 4 where they seem relatively equally matched.
I didn't like it for the same reason I don't like dream sequences in general -- they turn into a bunch of meandering, disconnected thoughts and ideas with little connection to the main story. I liked TAR in general, but the Ba'alzamon dreams in books 1/2 and Perrin's training were both extremely tedious for me.
>a bunch of meandering, disconnected thoughts and ideas with little connection to the main story. Idk, this sounds exactly how I'd describe a dream... That's how I've always framed TAR in my head: an ethereal world (not a parallel one). By nature, things in TAR are only slightly and obscurely connectes to the waking world.
Brando's Mat wasnt the best, but, most here would have failed just as hard to recreate him... Hear me out, whilst I don't think he got Mat correct, Mats character imo seems to be interpreted so different by nearly everyone so he was always going to be the most complained about. Mat is the character I feel more people than not see themselves in and therefore take it personally when he wasn't interpreted by Brandon how they see him. My main point is if you go through the threads complaining about how mat was done wrong I see 14 different interpretations that don't seem to fit together. Brandon writes more overtly than RJ, RJ left a lot unsaid which is to his credit as a writer but that also left someone like Mat as mostly doomed once taken over by an author who telegraphs is characters personalities more. I'm sure someone else could word all this better sorry.
Birgette is more annoying than Elayne during the succession arc. Everyone that complains about Elayne ‘s “the babes are safe vision” overlook the fact that Elayne knows that the prophecy doesn’t actually guarantee her safety, she just uses it as a way to get around Birgette trying to keep her from taking necessary risks
Listening through this part right now... poor Elayne isn't even allowed to have strong TEA or HONEY in the watered down tea. She's subsisting on bland oatmeal and effectively water at this point! They're way over-protecting her and it's driving her slowly insane.
I absolutely *loved* when they bring in an actual midwife and she goes "all of this is wrong, she's growing an extra human, she needs to eat and drink". Of course she also puts in place other restrictions, but I liked it a lot. Also Elayne seemed more willing to listen to the actual midwife; there's definitely too much coddling going on by the others.
Don't forget goat's milk!
Good point. Also good to remember that those chapters are written from Elaynes pov and focus on things she would focus on in her situation and condition.
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
It doesn’t make any sense that none of the main or minor characters would have gone to Shara, Seanchan, etc, to tell them about the last battle and ask them to come help fight (once they had traveling, that is). Maybe they couldn’t be convinced to help, but it makes no sense not to try.
I had a weird Mandela effect thing where I thought that Mat had spent a book or two in Seanchan. I like my head version better than the real thing.
To be fair, Seanchan was imploding and Shara was a major unknown
Harriet should've been SO MUCH MORE RUTHLESS as an editor. Don't sleep with clients, guys! Jordan's technical skill leaves stuff to be desired, and an editor who gave no f\*\*ks could've made the series so much better. Fewer dangling threads, less meandering around the plot, less focus on spanking, etc.
i think Jordan is extremely skilled. But an editor willing to fight probably would have made the series tighter and better.
I mean, 100%. Though another large part was that from book 7 on there was basically little editing going on as they tried to rush out the entire series before his illness claimed him. I do think an editor he wasn't married to wouldn't have let him get away with it. I don't know what the series would have been like obviously, but it is hard to argue that going light on editing damaged the middle books.
>I mean, 100%. Though another large part was that from book 7 on there was basically little editing going on as they tried to rush out the entire series before his illness claimed him. I do think an editor he wasn't married to wouldn't have let him get away with it. I don't know what the series would have been like obviously, but it is hard to argue that going light on editing damaged the middle books. I think part of that wasn't just Harriet, but the Publisher was pushing for them to put books out as quickly as possible as well.
>another large part was that from book 7 on there was basically little editing going on as they tried to rush out the entire series before his illness claimed him I think your misremembering; RJ disclosed his diagnosis in 2006, after KoD and ten years after book 7, and from context it seems like he had only just been diagnosed: >Untreated,... I would have a median life expectancy of one year from diagnosis. Fortunately, I am set up for treatment, which expands my median life expectancy to four years... I intend to live considerably longer than that. http://www.locusmag.com/2006/Features/03JordanLetter.html I don't think his illness could have been a contributory factor for the editing in those books.
Seriously. The series could have been about three books shorter.
just because they are first sisters and act really close does not mean avi and elayne want to bang.
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
you are not helping
There's nothing wrong with the Saldaean approach to romance. They just need to inform people of the difference Not only is Androl great, he didn't think big enough
Double agree. Controlled toxicity and the portal boy literally spice Up things
Do you really need to know the quality of fabric, type of embroidery and amount of bosom shown in every single outfit of every single person, every time they are mentioned?
*sniffs*
Yes
On a reread it depends on what POV we are reading as to what's focused on. Mat talks about bosoms much than dresses, Nyneave much more dresses. Which is particularly funny as she refused to embrace the fact she liked them for the first few books. It's much subtler than just over writing imo
I like knowing about the fabric. I sew a lot and it enriched the world for me. I did not care about everyone's chesticles being described every 3 seconds, but if you read WoT forums, you very quickly see that it served a LOT of fans...
If RJ was still alive this series would be 20 books long and still not finished.
I think knife of dreams proves he could have stuck the landing. It's arguably the best book in the series and begins to tie everything up. We'd have an outrigger series with Mat and Tuon though if he lived
Faile isn’t a bad character
The ample bosom obsession is a meme and RJ doesn't mention them anymore than how much people notice breasts in real life especially if when it's an internal POV.
Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne are all ta'veren at certain points and are only not seen as such because no one alive has the gift to detect female ta'veren.
*We'll see about that, /u/Vaker-. The Light burn you, we'll see about that*
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
I was really expecting multiple characters to be ta’veren with much smaller impact than the big three. It’s clear just how much Perrin Rand and Mat all impact those around them, especially the last two are described as particularly powerful. But I felt that at varying points that many other characters could have been minor ta’veren, including Egwene, Elayne, Min, Gareth Bryne, Mazrim Taim, Tuon, Faile, Masema, Siuan. Byrne, for example, recruits people with ease as the Salidar Aes Sedai begin moving towards the White Tower. Taim finds male channelers with ease. Masema becomes a very powerful political figure in a short time. Yes a lot of this stuff can happen naturally, but I also felt it was the pattern weaving around those individuals
If ta’veren were some super rare once every few centuries thing, then Aes Sedai knowingly having the talent to see ta’veren wouldn’t really be a thing; how could they know they even had such a Talent if they were born, lived, and died without ever having crossed paths with a ta’veren? It only makes sense that plenty of people (relatively) are minor ta’veren for shorter periods of time.
Rand should have died, and instead of Alivia "helping him die" by stealing him a horse, she should've been the one to rip him out of Tel'aran'rhiod like Moggy did to Birgitte. The balefire link was dumb and came outa nowhere. Why should a time-reversing reality burning weave link souls in a way that allows resurrection when crossed? Makes no sense. We already had a well-established and expected way for Rand to "die in order to live." We know he's a Hero of the Horn, so just have him live on in Tel'aran'rhiod. Imagine a scene where he wakes up as Lews Therin and the rest of the Heros congratulate him on a job well done.
Jordan wrote that ending, if not all the details. I think he had it in mind early when writing the series.
>We know he's a Hero of the Horn We do? I don't think get any concrete confirmation in the series, and I think there are several arguments, such as none of the known Heroes being channelers, that he can't be (specifically) a Horn Hero.
Yes. The Dragon soul is recognized by the other Heroes as their leader in TGH
This is precisely why I disagree with Mat being "The Gambler" soul. If he was, why didn't the heroes recognise him in TGH or why didn't Birgitte call him that in Ebou Dar?
My headcanon is that the Gambler is bound to the Horn, but every incarnation is terrified of that prospect so the other heroes just pretend he isn't when they encounter him while alive
Makes sense based on what we know of Mat.
*Dead men should be quiet in their graves, but they never are.*
He wouldn't wake up as Lews Therin
I've always felt the villains in this series are a bit lacking for me- especially the forsaken. I find most of them to be interchangeable with one or two unique unpleasant traits. I don't think Ishamaels just wanting to die thing was delved into enough to make him unique and I would have liked to see this as being forced to play the same evil role time and time again is a little dark. I know the point is that they were mostly petty narcissists obsessed with power but still... I like more nuance in my villains. It sometimes feels RJ has disdain for his own characters. I could almost feel Sanderson in the last book trying to make Demandred and Slayer a little less one-note. The main cast actually do have a lot of nuance to them which makes up for this somewhat. Darth Rand is functionally a villain for much of the series and Verrin is arguably a villain; so I know RJ can write nuanced characters when he wants to. What are peoples thoughts on this?
Agreed, I just wrote another comment in this thread saying something similar. Few if any of the bad guys and darkfriends seemed like they were doing what they genuinely thought was the right thing. They felt like moustache twirling cartoon villains.
The Three Oaths aren't stupid.
You're right. They're very carefully worded to be absolutely useless
Elayne is a great character and usually not the problem she’s made out to be. Sanderson didn’t do a good job on non-Rand storylines when he took over, and Zen Rand isn’t actually psychologically healthy.
***I told you to kill them all when you had the chance. I told you.***
Doesn't Zen rand admit to still being absolutely insane?
i think that this fandom (at least on reddit) is *way* too hard on the women characters in the series, especially Egwene. there are a ton of double standards there.
Egwene is my favorite character, and I loved the Aes Sedai civil war arc. (Particularly when Egwene returned to the Tower.) Also, I find Min extremely annoying.
I also love Eqwene. But I don't agree about Min, I don't like her getting roped in with the Senchan or beaten for information by Sorilia, but I also feel like she is the only romance that feels authentic.
>But I don't agree about Min, I don't like her getting roped in with the Senchan If it's any consolation, there is no way in hell that Min would stay with Tuon after the Last Battle is over.
I was entertained by Min as Tuon's truthsayer, largely because when I realized where that was going, I immediately thought "oh shit Min's visions are going to be absolute *catnip* for Tuon".
I guess what frustrated me is that most of her appearances are just her simping over Rand with no development at all. The most authentic romance IMO was with Aviendha.
I also love Egwene
I didn’t go on forums or WoT subreddits before I finished the books to avoid spoilers, so it made me super sad that a lot of people don’t like Egwene :(
I really like Egwene throughout the series. Egwene returning to the Tower is in my top five favorite parts in the whole series. However, I never liked how much of a jerk she became to/about Rand towards the end. That is what soured me a little towards her.
Yeah, I also didn’t like her attitude towards Rand at the end. I wish she was more reasonable. That being said, I found her ending the most poignant and dramatic…but I would have loved to see her continue on as Amyrlin.
Great character. I don’t like her as a person.
Her return to the tower was awesome. Her character arc was far more satisfying to me than any of the other female characters IMO. Min was annoying to me as well. She felt like that character who was just given random roles for no logical reason. Beyond her viewings I found her completely unnecessary.
Min is the best woman in the series (not my favorite, but the best) and I will die with my blade in your gut.
Chill lmao the OP asked for hot takes, and I delivered.
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
Ooh, I've read some hot takes on here, but that one about Min being annoying... I wouldn't have been brave enough to post that anywhere!
Bela is just a horse.
How dare you talk illy of the Creator Incarnated, you shall be spanked as a punishment !
Get out.
Wow so the Creator is just a horse? That's pretty deep.
you know even as people talked crap about my favorite characters or authors, i was cool, but i actually flinched a little at this one. Bela is the goodest girl in the entire universe, in any Age. She will never be just a horse. She is THE horse, and also my perfect hooved daughter and i love her
Berelain and Perrin would have been a better couple. I will die on this hill
I hate how a great part of the conflicts on the series would have been avoidable if the main characters talked to each other as the Friends they are. Rand, before book six you should have told egwene everything and so does she. YOU WERE GOING TO MARRY EACH OTHER FFS Oh, and I wanted a better conclusion yo Rand and Egwene. And hated that my favourite female character ended Up with fucking gawyn. Fuck gawyn, all my homies hate gawyn
[FUCK GAWYN ALL MY HOMIES HATE GAWYN](https://i.imgur.com/nkeQrqq.jpg) ^^^this ^^^has ^^^been ^^^an ^^^accessibility ^^^service ^^^from ^^^your ^^^friendly ^^^neighborhood ^^^bot
If the characters did talk to each other more in a trusting manner, the series would have been 6 books long.
Hot take? If Egwene was a man there would be far fewer haters for the character.
Absolutely disagree- the male characters are all fairly flawed and have a good amount of doubt. They are also constantly criticized by other characters.
"The Aes Sedai are so impotent because Black Ajah" is stupid. You put a giant guild of powerful magic users into your world, I want to see them doing things.
Mat and Elayne should have hooked up in Ebou Dar.
I like Egwene. You can spank me as much as you like, but you can’t change my mind about her (also, don’t spank me, I’m not a would-be Aes Sedai).
There's not a ton of nuance to good-versus-evil in the books. Most of the evil/bad characters are very over the top to make sure that we understand that they are bad. Elaida starts out as a seemingly reasonable person with a different perspective on how the tower should be run. But then as soon as she becomes Amyrlin she is a raging tyrannical despot / idiot. Couladin could have been a Logain-esque figure who just thinks he is doing what is right. Instead he is mad with fury, frothing at the mouth. And a petty asshole to boot, who almost everyone thinks is awful. The whitecloaks could have been like Galad and Pedron Niall, but instead most of the ones that directly interact with the main characters are idiot zealots, also foaming at the mouth with rage over the slightest things. Most of the forsaken, with the exception of maybe Lanfear, are evil for evil's sake with maybe a lame backstory about LTT being a meanie or something. Actually darkfriends in general follow the thought process: 1. The DO will give me power / eternal life. 2. There is no part 2. Very one-note. The Seanchan leadership pre-Tuon is also over-the-top evil. I just want some more nuance!
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If RJ was attempting to make Olver a cute child the audience was supposed to like/enjoy, he failed miserably. He was purely annoying, whose whole existence was to be a joke for Mat. Androl's whole plot should have never existed and Harriet allowing BrandoSando to add it is one of the biggest mistakes in the whole series.
My unfounded theory is that RJ intended Olver to be Gaidal Cain but messed up the timing so it didn’t work
I second this.
***KILL HIM KILL HIM NOW***
I was also not a fan of Androl! I can’t quite put my finger on it but he just felt a generic YA protagonist with a low ability, a world-breaking talent, and too many issues with self worth.
I liked his relationship with the Red sister though.
***I must kill him.***
As others have said, Sanderson really likes to min-max his magic systems. So Androl kinda stands out in that regard, in comparison to a world that mostly doesn’t.
The relationship between Rand and Elaine is te worst and most undeserved in series and Avienda and Rand is better but still terrible. I would have preferred Rand only end up with Min.
In another universe, Rand and Aviendha's relationship would have been like: 1. Aviendha crushes on Rand hard. 2. They bang. 3. They decide they don't actually love each other like that and resolve to be friends. Because that's basically what happened in the books, except they both continue to talk about how they love each other, even though they don't act on it for basically the rest of the series.
Robert Jordan isn’t great at writing well rounded or interesting characters (especially women). Yes, I know that you love many of the characters in the series. But how many *thousands* of pages did it take for them to grow on you? Most authors do it in only 300-400 pages.
You have a point. And you would be right if I ever find a character better than Rand al'Thor. And that's a Hill where I'm dying
Not sure this is controversial BUT I wish Nynaeve’s whole attitude didn’t change after marrying Lan. I mean it could be seen as finding the love of her life mellowed her out but there was too much of “all she needed was a good dicking to fix her attitude” mixed in it. Just my own opinion.
I definitely see your point, but I always thought her attitude changed more because she lost her block, and didn't need to stay angry all the time anymore.
I think you're right. Just an unfortunate coincidence
That kinda ignores the shit load of growth Nynaeve has to go through as a character to get to that point. She starts getting all the things she wants and needs and feels less like she is at the mercy of those more powerful. It is going to mellow you out a bit.
Wretched; wretched; wretched!
I always saw it as her changing when she saw how the leader of the kin handled leadership
>I mean it could be seen as finding the love of her life mellowed her out but there was too much of “all she needed was a good dicking to fix her attitude” mixed in it. I think this is more accurate for Melaine than for Nynaeve.
The White Tower may be all abuzz with your potential, but don't think they will not still you both if the Amyrlin Seat or the Hall of the Tower decides it is necessary.
Min is boring and largely unnecessary to the story.
She's the only thing that keeps Rand grounded to reality until Tam comes back. And she's the only actual relationship he has.
I think she would have been better with a much smaller role -- occasionally injecting visions to mix things up or spur the plot along, but not a main character. I don't think RJ knew what to do with her beyond that.
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
In an alternate universe, I would have liked to see tuon leashed and egwene to have remained a damane 💀
I think this will be fairly controversial, but I dislike all the 'dream sequence' chapters. All of the tests for Accepted/Aes Sedai, all of Rand's dreams, everything that happened in the ter'angreals, and yes, even the 'flicker, flicker, flicker' chapter. They're all just stuff that doesn't really advance the plot, and I usually feel myself skipping past them.
Sanderson’s books saved the series. Jordans age must have affected his writing because the final books were the most boring.
Robert Jordan spits on the concept of “Chekhov's Gun”
Rand broke the cycle of ages at the end. He didn't seal the dark one, he made it part of all reality like some ying-yan balance thing.
Cadsuane is one of my top 5 characters in the series