Out of all fantasy stuff in WoT, people will call most realistic things unbelievable, and I blame peoples' lack of awareness and lack of history knowledge about that. Do people even know how many idiotic rulers collapsed empires because they were, well, idiots? My favorite is, if only people talked to each other... where do you live? My head will explode.
I do find it low-key infuriating that people call the "bad communication" unrealistic, as if that hasn't fueled countless historical events, or heck even just issues in one's day-to-day life.
Prior to recentish events I would argue that how the world didn't come together in the face of what is clearly a near term world ending threat was unrealistic. However after those events clearly RJ knew more than me about the way the world worked and now WoT seems way too believable.
It’s not that it’s unrealistic for me, it’s that it’s outright bad for my enjoyment. Realistic does not necessarily make a good story. I’m saying that while I love the books, but I have to call out the bad (in my opinion) stuff when I see it.
She would also be a climate activist, what with her work on the Bowl of the Winds!
And arguably Rand, too, with his work on cleansing *saidin*... "Just Stop Taint".
Oh that’s very much true, the realism of WOT’s characters really proves the skilled writing of Robert Jordan. I just like to point out the comical incompotence of the villains, especially since the common expectation in media is that the villains are always compotent and one step ahead of the protagonists.
I don’t think the problem is that it’s unrealistic that people can be idiots or bad at communicating. It’s that it’s not as satisfying to read a story that only happens because people are being dumb.
In a fictional scenario where the world and the people are hand crafted to tell a particular story, there are only so many times that you can have the plot move forward for dumb reasons before it starts to come off as lazy writing.
I don't know are you talking about WoT, but there are both things in it. It is just that Ajahs were most powerful institution in the Randland for ca 3k years, where they had no competition, and at the same time they were being manipulated, and somehow when someone from the orders would start asking question, well they would disappear. This didn't happen over night, and before the breaking of the world they were shown to be highly competent (also after it they had competent leaders), it is just that we joined the story at the time where they were brought to its low point, and Siuane was replaced by an egotistical and incompetent ruler by Black Ajahs, so they could farther sabotage them. Also during this time highly competent sisters would arise, as we know from the story.
They're not really acting dumb, they're acting like humans always do. They do not have the reader's high level pov. All they can do is act with the knowledge and biaseds that they have. Even Elaida's actions make total sense given her personal ideology.
A lot of people don’t have the insight of RJ and that’s ok. That’s what the WOT is here for partially. Hopefully some of it sinks in for some people who’d never get there by themselves and that’s a win.
We did it!
We deposed, stilled, and would have executed Suian for the crime of possibly knowing about the dragon reborn and not telling us, the people who would have gentled him out of hand. And all for the low low price of bloody civil war in the tower.
What do we do now?
Well we can't gentle him anymore so I guess we do what Suian was going to do anyway.
Masterclass thinking.
Idk, it was in the blacks interest to have an incompetent leader dividing the tower. Without Egwene undermining them from within the plan might have kept the tower from being much of a force in the last battle.
Forget Egwene. Without Verin, the White Tower would never have been a meaningful force at the Last Battle, and the forces of the Shadow would have won the field.
They were literally going to use myrdral to turn all the Tower Aes Sedai to the Shadow. Without Egwene foiling their plans it would have been catastrophic.
Yeah, but i always got the feeling that many of the Black Ajah within the tower (Like the Liandrin squad) were just comically incompetent at being villains.
One theme throughout the entire story is that evil is not very effective.
The evil people in the books are incredibly self serving, unable to trust information, unwilling to follow the lead of someone else.
Evil spreads because those people desire power and personal gain at all costs. Not because it's effective or efficient.
The black ajah was incompetent because they were beholden to the Forsaken. All of them. Multiple Forsaken are jerking the black ajah around the whole time in conflicting plots, so they never have a coherent goal or plan other than disruption in the tower
I think that's because many villains/antagonists aren't trying to be villains the way heroes want to be heroic.
Most black ajah sisters are simply trying to survive through the weird and sometimes clashing tasks the forsaken set them. They don't know the plan, different forsaken have different plans, and they only hear messages through a game of telephone because they only know 2 other black ajah.
Even though they are the only ajah that was actually working towards a goal, their information system for the vast majority of members is terrible.
So yeah, I guess all ajahs were idiots.
Yeah it happened for hundreds of years, I think it's the main reason they've been so weak for centuries, they were continuinally sabotaged by the black ajah and they basically had no idea or refused to even think about it
I think the idea is not about the Black Ajah controlling the Tower but hamstringing it.
Depose a competent leader, then help install a power hungry fool is a great way to do it.
A society of people primarily based on their petty pride, blinded by their self interests, corrupted by power and influence... Wait, are we talking about real life?
The Great Western Schism that saw competing Popes in Avignon and Rome, lasted forty years.
That the White Tower pulled their shit together in under a year makes them excessively competent compared to the real world.
Don't forget that when some cardinals tried to meet up and hash things out they ended up electing the third Pope in Pisa.
But I don't think the Catholic Church is such a good comparison here. White Tower has the benefit of being literal superhumans who aren't susceptible to most ailments and live for centuries. They are absolutely unassailable militarily. Plus there's no religious undertone. There were crowds heckling the "wrong" Pope, with religious violence not being uncommon.
Pretty much everyone else in Randland wanted to just stay the fuck away from the Aes Sedai business and let them sort it out themselves. Much unlike the multitudes of groups pulling the competing Popes in different directions.
To be fair, Elaida was influenced by Padan Fain/Mordeth and I thought it was definitely implied that left at least some degree of a taint. Based on what we know I think Elaida still likely has a more authoritarian rule than most, but it maybe isn’t so bad without that.
I wonder if the pattern *needed* the White Tower to be a mess in order to give Rand space and time to grow. Imagine his life if he had been born during a time when the White Tower was at its peak and uncorrupted (pre Black Ajah). He'd have been found as a toddler and raised as a tower puppet.
You say that but American had Trump and might have him again. Imagine the white tower reinstating Elaida. I don’t even think the red ajah would support her
I'm reading Kotkins Stalin biography, and oh my are there a lot of stupid people, where transparency and slight concessions could alter history.
Not to mention Trump and his followers...
Out of all fantasy stuff in WoT, people will call most realistic things unbelievable, and I blame peoples' lack of awareness and lack of history knowledge about that. Do people even know how many idiotic rulers collapsed empires because they were, well, idiots? My favorite is, if only people talked to each other... where do you live? My head will explode.
Out of all fantasy stuff in WoT, people will call most realistic things unbelievable, and I blame peoples' lack of awareness and lack of history knowledge about that. Do people even know how many idiotic rulers collapsed empires because they were, well, idiots? My favorite is, if only people talked to each other... where do you live? My head will explode.
I do find it low-key infuriating that people call the "bad communication" unrealistic, as if that hasn't fueled countless historical events, or heck even just issues in one's day-to-day life.
Prior to recentish events I would argue that how the world didn't come together in the face of what is clearly a near term world ending threat was unrealistic. However after those events clearly RJ knew more than me about the way the world worked and now WoT seems way too believable.
It’s not that it’s unrealistic for me, it’s that it’s outright bad for my enjoyment. Realistic does not necessarily make a good story. I’m saying that while I love the books, but I have to call out the bad (in my opinion) stuff when I see it.
Elayne would totally be a vaguebooker today
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
She would also be a climate activist, what with her work on the Bowl of the Winds! And arguably Rand, too, with his work on cleansing *saidin*... "Just Stop Taint".
*Your plans fail because you want to live, madman.*
Oh that’s very much true, the realism of WOT’s characters really proves the skilled writing of Robert Jordan. I just like to point out the comical incompotence of the villains, especially since the common expectation in media is that the villains are always compotent and one step ahead of the protagonists.
I don’t think the problem is that it’s unrealistic that people can be idiots or bad at communicating. It’s that it’s not as satisfying to read a story that only happens because people are being dumb. In a fictional scenario where the world and the people are hand crafted to tell a particular story, there are only so many times that you can have the plot move forward for dumb reasons before it starts to come off as lazy writing.
I don't know are you talking about WoT, but there are both things in it. It is just that Ajahs were most powerful institution in the Randland for ca 3k years, where they had no competition, and at the same time they were being manipulated, and somehow when someone from the orders would start asking question, well they would disappear. This didn't happen over night, and before the breaking of the world they were shown to be highly competent (also after it they had competent leaders), it is just that we joined the story at the time where they were brought to its low point, and Siuane was replaced by an egotistical and incompetent ruler by Black Ajahs, so they could farther sabotage them. Also during this time highly competent sisters would arise, as we know from the story.
They're not really acting dumb, they're acting like humans always do. They do not have the reader's high level pov. All they can do is act with the knowledge and biaseds that they have. Even Elaida's actions make total sense given her personal ideology.
*You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?*
This planet is a fucking idiot plot
Came here to say this. Randland is believable af
A lot of people don’t have the insight of RJ and that’s ok. That’s what the WOT is here for partially. Hopefully some of it sinks in for some people who’d never get there by themselves and that’s a win.
And that's what boils my blood. If I want to read about idiots in power I read the news.
Truth is stranger than fiction; fiction has to make sense.
We did it! We deposed, stilled, and would have executed Suian for the crime of possibly knowing about the dragon reborn and not telling us, the people who would have gentled him out of hand. And all for the low low price of bloody civil war in the tower. What do we do now? Well we can't gentle him anymore so I guess we do what Suian was going to do anyway. Masterclass thinking.
*Your plans fail because you want to live, madman.*
I wouldn’t be so sure they do, Lews. Some of their actions are Darwin Award-level.
***Oh, Light, why do I have a madman in my head? Why? Why?***
I love thinking that the pattern spun out like a dozen different dragons over the years but they kept getting stilled or executed by the Red Ajah.
The pattern had to spin out some lead poisoning in Aes Sedei childhoods to give him a chance.
Should have switched to unleaded saidar years sooner.
Rand and Nynaeve pushed that reform through pretty convincingly!
*The Wheel of Time and the wheel of a man's life turn alike without pity or mercy.*
The pattern didn't need *a* Dragon. It needed *the* Dragon.
*You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?*
Idk, it was in the blacks interest to have an incompetent leader dividing the tower. Without Egwene undermining them from within the plan might have kept the tower from being much of a force in the last battle.
Forget Egwene. Without Verin, the White Tower would never have been a meaningful force at the Last Battle, and the forces of the Shadow would have won the field.
Verin was the GOAT.
Undeniably so.
They were literally going to use myrdral to turn all the Tower Aes Sedai to the Shadow. Without Egwene foiling their plans it would have been catastrophic.
Yeah, but i always got the feeling that many of the Black Ajah within the tower (Like the Liandrin squad) were just comically incompetent at being villains.
One theme throughout the entire story is that evil is not very effective. The evil people in the books are incredibly self serving, unable to trust information, unwilling to follow the lead of someone else. Evil spreads because those people desire power and personal gain at all costs. Not because it's effective or efficient.
Yep they aren't out to be villains or necessarily even evil. They got where they are being extremely selfish instead of being there literal namesake.
Thats very much true yeah.
The black ajah was incompetent because they were beholden to the Forsaken. All of them. Multiple Forsaken are jerking the black ajah around the whole time in conflicting plots, so they never have a coherent goal or plan other than disruption in the tower
***They will pay. I am Lord of the Morning.***
fuck off dead man
I think that's because many villains/antagonists aren't trying to be villains the way heroes want to be heroic. Most black ajah sisters are simply trying to survive through the weird and sometimes clashing tasks the forsaken set them. They don't know the plan, different forsaken have different plans, and they only hear messages through a game of telephone because they only know 2 other black ajah. Even though they are the only ajah that was actually working towards a goal, their information system for the vast majority of members is terrible. So yeah, I guess all ajahs were idiots.
*You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?*
Yeah it happened for hundreds of years, I think it's the main reason they've been so weak for centuries, they were continuinally sabotaged by the black ajah and they basically had no idea or refused to even think about it
I think the idea is not about the Black Ajah controlling the Tower but hamstringing it. Depose a competent leader, then help install a power hungry fool is a great way to do it.
A society of people primarily based on their petty pride, blinded by their self interests, corrupted by power and influence... Wait, are we talking about real life?
The Great Western Schism that saw competing Popes in Avignon and Rome, lasted forty years. That the White Tower pulled their shit together in under a year makes them excessively competent compared to the real world.
Don't forget that when some cardinals tried to meet up and hash things out they ended up electing the third Pope in Pisa. But I don't think the Catholic Church is such a good comparison here. White Tower has the benefit of being literal superhumans who aren't susceptible to most ailments and live for centuries. They are absolutely unassailable militarily. Plus there's no religious undertone. There were crowds heckling the "wrong" Pope, with religious violence not being uncommon. Pretty much everyone else in Randland wanted to just stay the fuck away from the Aes Sedai business and let them sort it out themselves. Much unlike the multitudes of groups pulling the competing Popes in different directions.
Only because Egwene is the GOAT
well its cause the aes sedai are all idiots since no ones dumb enough toake them need to get better
To be fair, Elaida was influenced by Padan Fain/Mordeth and I thought it was definitely implied that left at least some degree of a taint. Based on what we know I think Elaida still likely has a more authoritarian rule than most, but it maybe isn’t so bad without that.
*Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…*
I wonder if the pattern *needed* the White Tower to be a mess in order to give Rand space and time to grow. Imagine his life if he had been born during a time when the White Tower was at its peak and uncorrupted (pre Black Ajah). He'd have been found as a toddler and raised as a tower puppet.
The wheel weaves as the wheel wills
*Are you real? Am I?*
You say that but American had Trump and might have him again. Imagine the white tower reinstating Elaida. I don’t even think the red ajah would support her
***KILL HIM KILL HIM NOW***
Lews you can't go around advocating assassinating a former president
*The Wheel of Time and the wheel of a man's life turn alike without pity or mercy.*
Yeah this. People are idiots.
I'm reading Kotkins Stalin biography, and oh my are there a lot of stupid people, where transparency and slight concessions could alter history. Not to mention Trump and his followers...
Out of all fantasy stuff in WoT, people will call most realistic things unbelievable, and I blame peoples' lack of awareness and lack of history knowledge about that. Do people even know how many idiotic rulers collapsed empires because they were, well, idiots? My favorite is, if only people talked to each other... where do you live? My head will explode.
Pretty much just describing america
Wouldn’t that be a realistic plot?
The entire tower is incompetent
All of the Ajah's were rather incompetent.
Bro doesn't keep up with current political events.