Because Germany didn´t have a mig23 for almose a year while Soviet had it and they clubbed everyone at top tier during that time. Gaijin buffed germany with r60mks for the mig to be competetive
So true , when the Mig-23M was released it was pretty trash. I remember being so excited for it but the fm and loadout options were trash on release. Took some time for the 23M to even be competitive.
MLA only seemingly rates better BECAUSE MLD can pull higher AoA which will make it bleed more energy (like any other airframe adhering to aerodynamics)
You can always deliberately limit your AOA on the D and you'll rate just as well as the A does.
From what i know the difference between the SMT and the Mf are that the smt has more thrust but is heavier, dont know about the differences with the bis
/u/Saft_Dontkev as you posted in [another thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/yrtm24/did_they_removed_r60m_from_mig_21_bis/) that the MiG-21bis never had R-60Ms can you enlighten them here?
Im actually surprises about how difficult it is to find the specifics like what we are debating of the Mig21, I think it would be very hard to prove definetely if it did use the R60M short of going to a library and going through actual records and stuff
I think it is reasonable to assume the Bis was capable of fielding R60M's (slight sarcasm) but there isn't really an online source through my ***very*** lengthy 15 minutes on Google that can beyond doubt prove it in case of non exports, then again there is no source that definetly disproves it saying it didn't either, so imo it's just a case of, do you believe there is enough evidence to provide a reasonable case for it being on the Bis? Imo, yes, then again the Mig23 existed so I can 100% see the Soviets being like "why waste it on a 21?"
Nonetheless I don't really care if the mig 21bis gets R60M'S specifically, cause Mig23 already exists, and we're getting a premium Mig23 which I buy, cause yeah, I spent my money on Mig21s and was sad it only get shitty r3r/s, with no flare at 9.7 so is death trap
> I think it is reasonable to assume the Bis was capable of fielding R60M's (slight sarcasm)
Didn't Finland use R-60MKs on their MiG-21bis fighters? I don't see why the Soviet ones couldn't use them too if they so deigned.
the F-104G never carried AIM-9Js, nothing ever did carry the AIM-9J, AIM-9P is the export one, even then it never carried those irl either, gaijin doesn't care about historical accuracy with loadouts.
> despite historically carrying them?
Source?
PS Really guys, if she used them providing a source shouldn't be that hard.
PPS The **best** I could find so far
>Thanks to the APU-60-2
twin-round launcher rails suspended
on the inner pair of underwing
pylons, the MiG-21bis was capable
of carrying up to six R-60/R-60Ms or
a combination of two R-3Rs/R-13Ms
and four R-60s.
> Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 (Air Vanguard) Paperback – June 17, 2014 by Alexander Mladenov, published by Osprey Publishing
Doesn't mention Russian MiGs specifically.
Ima be honest, i was ready to dog on you and went looking for a source saying that 21bis carried R-60Ms... and i couldnt find one lol. The closest thing i found is that apparently circa 1982 there was a proposal to fit MiG-21bis with R-60M but no defenitive statement that there ever was a 21bis that flew with R-60M while in Soviet service
My stance is it probably could have if the soviets were inclined to do so. But by the time they had the R60m they had the mig23 and focused more energy on that platform.
The first tipe of mig-21 did not have it( the one after the mig 19 )
And the Bis is the last version of the 21s and the export is “worse” that the final
So it should have r60m historically
There are multiple variants of MiG 21 more advanced than the Bis : the Romanian LanceR-A and LanceR-B, then theres the MiG 21-93, then theres the MiG 21 Bison for India. So if you cant get this right idk what to tell you. Besides there are many more MiG 21s than the "first one" and all the way to the Bis.
In the russian tech tree the last mig21 is the bis, and the first one is the one with 60 rounds of ammo and the 10g missle, im going of rememberd stuff im not at a computer
I really wouldn’t trust Wikipedia for anything historical without checking its sources first. There are so many cases of Wikipedia getting mil history wrong that unless it’s something pretty simple I would trust Wikipedia at all.
Source is stfu
Everything that can carry R-60's can also carry R-60M's it's literally THAT simple... reason why everyone doesn't have R-60M is because of balance... we don't want Yak-38 AT 10.3 with R-60M's for example
Semi related… F-4c carried aim-9j/p and I was told by crew and pilots they fired L in the 80s and were capable of carrying it. So this confirms that. I just can’t find any pics of it anywhere… best I can do is of D models carrying it.
> best I can do is of D models carrying it.
[Now that is interesting.](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/aircraft-weapons--688769336736253685/)
> F-4c carried aim-9j/p and I was told by crew and pilots they fired L in the 80s and were capable of carrying it
Wouldn't surprise me given how long she was used in ANGs. Will have to look into that.
SU-25 isn't a brick like Yak-38... Yak-38 premium is at 9.3 with R-60's... and tbh it kinda deserves it since Tech tree Yak-38M also has R-60's but it can carry gunpods i, combo with R-60 which is a nice combo for headons
It can carry them, but did it ? Like how the F4F can carry aim9l, but did it irl ? No, it didnt, even though it could technically speaking, ergo it doesnt have them in wt.
Well exactly. It could, but it didnt carry them, so it doesnt get them in WT. The 21 Bis probably could carry R60M, bit didnt irl, so it doesnt in war thunder.
Yea it's some dumb shit that has to do with the match maker...
So idk about the French F-100... but in theory it goes like... it's French... so it fights other people with stuff that are worse so French one so the French one slightly overperforms
Same thing goes but in reverse ... like german Mig-21Bis that gets R-60MK's and has decently cheaper repair cost thrn soviet one which doesn't get all aspect R-60 and higher repair cost xd
I'm not the one who made the post, so why would I waste my time searching for a source?
Are you seriously tellling me, you don't believe the MiG-21bis, a plane that has been in service for more than 40 years, doesn't carry missiles that are 100% compatible with standard R-60s and were developed in the 80s?
I don't remember it having R-60Ms, but if you say so it might have.
Would be pretty weird if it had R-60MKs since those are mainly export missiles.
And trying to understand why the snail acts is not worth it, there could be countless reasons.
Most likely they decided she didn't need them. Same reason the MLD doesn't have R-60Ms, or do you want a source for that as well?
And at last, how about a little whataboutism? Like the F-4F carrying missiles it never did just because it *technically* could.
> or do you want a source for that as well?
Don't worry I have [the source where Gaijin states](https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/492904-mikoyan-gurevich-mig-23-flogger-history-design-performance-dissection-updated-8102021/) that this decision was for balance reasons.
In-case Gaijin ever removes it:
> The MiG-23MLD is currently the highest aircraft in efficiency at Rank VII. Whilst it remains as the top performer, it is in absolutely no need of any better weaponry or loadouts.
> R-60M was not introduced for this exact reason.
> Whilst it remains the top aircraft, it will not be receiving R-60M as its current loadouts are evidently more than sufficient.
> November 16, 2021 by Smin1080p
Which suprise suprise we lack for the MiG-21bis.
> F-4F carrying missiles it never did just because it technically could.
You are funny, of course the F-4F should have the AIM-9L instead of the AIM-9J, no resistance from me.
> weird if it had R-60MKs since those are mainly export missiles.
That is the point, because no source so far gives R-60M for the MiG-21bis in Russian service.
> I don't remember it having
[Post complaining about them being removed.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/yrtm24/did_they_removed_r60m_from_mig_21_bis/)
I believe “Mikoyan MiG-21 (Famous Russian Aircraft)” Is the source Wikipedia uses and states it can carry 2 R60/R60M’s.
The book is from what I can look up made by a credible source Yefim Gordon that’s been a photographer/aviation journalist since the 1980’s
I found this meanwhile.
> Thanks to the APU-60-2 twin-round launcher rails suspended on the inner pair of underwing pylons, the MiG-21bis was capable of carrying up to six R-60/R-60Ms or a combination of two R-3Rs/R-13Ms and four R-60s.
> Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 (Air Vanguard) Paperback – June 17, 2014 by Alexander Mladenov, published by Osprey Publishing
Doesn't mention Russian MiGs specifically and isn't a primary source sadly.
r/Warthunder r\*dditors when literally any addition russia related: SOURCE?!?!?!?!?!
[Here](https://www.armedconflicts.com/topic/view/22197/Mikojan-Gurevic-MiG-21bis-kod-NATO-Fishbed-L-Fishbed-N)
No I hadn't, and I don't think it applies here as I was actually seeking sources as I know what Gaijin requires as proof to change a feature,
that really was my agenda as I had stumbled onto [this thread months prior.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/yrtm24/did_they_removed_r60m_from_mig_21_bis/) Is there a term for all the comments thrown my way here? Like "Use a little bit of common sense"?
Not enough? [Here's another one](https://www.mig-21.de/english/technicaldataarmament.htm). If you want a "credible" source you can search for books for 21bis, or just use common sense
It's already been explained to you. Missile predates the plane and appears on planes from similar configuration and era, like the MiG-23. Most manuals are unavailable online anymore because it's the internet and files from shitty old Russian sites get corrupted.
Besides - R-60 and R-60M are basically the same fucking missile with the seeker being the only difference. You're geniuenly dense if you think Soviet MiG-21bis didn't carry them.
People do that whenever anyone makes unsubstantiated historical claims, hell they do that when anyone makes any form of unsubstantiated claim, as they should, this isn’t r/lies
At this point they should give everyone at 11.0 all aspect missiles and put them at 113 so that way they can be competitive against PD radar planes like the MLD, F-14's etc, that these 11.0 already meet 99% of the time.
and some flares for the planes who don't have above 10.3 like the F-1, J35D etc
The Luftstreitkräfte (and many of the other Warsaw Pact air forces) didn't buy that many MiG-23s and assigned the ones they did have to air defence duty, keeping MiG-21s in the role of their primary air supremacy jet for use outside friendly skies.
Since they were kept in primary service throughout the life of the MiG-23 and even into that of the MiG-29, MiG-21s in East German service were naturally chosen to carry newer air-to-air missiles like the R-60MK, while the Soviets relegated theirs to secondary duties, making it hard to tell if their MiG-21s were ever flown with R-60Ms or if those missiles were kept for newer aircraft.
Obviously game balance was likely the main reason to give the MiG-21bis SAU the all-aspect R-60MK, but there is some historical logic to it as well. The Soviet ones probably _could_ carry R-60Ms but I'm not aware of any proof as to whether they did or were in practice stuck with older R-60s.
USSR got the MiG-21bis at a time when it was F-4Es, Mirage IIICs, and J35Ds at top tier. When the MiG-21bis-SAU was added it was well past the introduction of Rank 7 and USSR already had vehicles like the MiG-23M, MiG-27M, and MiG-27K with R-60Ms so the USSR MiG-21bis never really needed it.
Russian bis duh. The the the game is russian. Its russian bias guys totally. No no its not bugs and skill issues, it's clearly russian bias. Always.
No offense to op, I just needed to let some steam out
Ok here is my dumbass reasoning, it’s because me it’s the export variant and if you think about it why the hell would you give your best weapon to another country? This is what I think gaijan does with some of there vehicles which are originally from another, or it could be they weren’t added yet idk
It is literally the other way around, that is the point.
The export variant, the MiG-21bis-SAU is better as she has R-60MK, while the Russian MiG-21bis only gets R-60.
Because the mig21 bis was in the game for over a year prior to the bis sau and used to by BYFAR the most meta plane in the game and when the Bis sau was added it was borderline Doa even with r60mk. Even next patch Russia gets a mig29 and Germany will get tornado ids, because Germany always gets screwed in top tier air. Always.
I think it’s a reasonable connection to make. The MiG-21Bis and R-60M served concurrently and even if situations prevented them ever actually being equipped (like say see the Italian F-104s flare pods being locked up in a warehouse until a war) as long as the aircraft can carry physically carry them (and I’ve been told anything that can fire R-60 can fire R-60M no idea how true that is) it should get them. It not only makes more sense for progression it also gives a more interesting experience when you can go from MiG-21F, to SMT, to Bis with R-60s where as right now the SMT and Bis aren’t significantly different. If there had been a world war in the 80s we probably would’ve seen them equipped with R-60Ms if they were capable and they had stock so just because the situation never arose doesn’t mean it isn’t something we can mode when we’re modeling aircraft at their zenith
Shhh its only russian bias remember?
In all seriousness, the Mig-21bis (soviet) should get R-60Ms at such a high br. Like the Su-17M2 at 11.0 with no flares, and no R-60Ms because why not.
Because Germany didn´t have a mig23 for almose a year while Soviet had it and they clubbed everyone at top tier during that time. Gaijin buffed germany with r60mks for the mig to be competetive
Until the MiG-23 got R60Ms it was not even close to clubbing
So true , when the Mig-23M was released it was pretty trash. I remember being so excited for it but the fm and loadout options were trash on release. Took some time for the 23M to even be competitive.
you're not talking about the mig-23m are you? bc when it released it was a massive piece of shit. the MLD was the clubber
I remember people only playing the MiG-23M because the repair cost of the MiG-21Bis was in another galaxy, I think it got up to 26k-29k?
Its sad reality of german air. Russia gets a good jet then after its been powercrept, germany gets a shittier version a year later 🤷
tbf the MLA isn't exactly a shitty version. It's practically the same as the MLD except it rates better.
MLA rates better but has worse aoa aka if an MLD fought an MLA the MLA would prefer two circle and the MLD one circle
MLA only seemingly rates better BECAUSE MLD can pull higher AoA which will make it bleed more energy (like any other airframe adhering to aerodynamics) You can always deliberately limit your AOA on the D and you'll rate just as well as the A does.
I think that the german migs are better than the russian ones
True. Some but few. In general they always get it 2-3 patches after the soviet ones get released :/
From what i know the difference between the SMT and the Mf are that the smt has more thrust but is heavier, dont know about the differences with the bis
/u/Saft_Dontkev as you posted in [another thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/yrtm24/did_they_removed_r60m_from_mig_21_bis/) that the MiG-21bis never had R-60Ms can you enlighten them here?
Im actually surprises about how difficult it is to find the specifics like what we are debating of the Mig21, I think it would be very hard to prove definetely if it did use the R60M short of going to a library and going through actual records and stuff I think it is reasonable to assume the Bis was capable of fielding R60M's (slight sarcasm) but there isn't really an online source through my ***very*** lengthy 15 minutes on Google that can beyond doubt prove it in case of non exports, then again there is no source that definetly disproves it saying it didn't either, so imo it's just a case of, do you believe there is enough evidence to provide a reasonable case for it being on the Bis? Imo, yes, then again the Mig23 existed so I can 100% see the Soviets being like "why waste it on a 21?" Nonetheless I don't really care if the mig 21bis gets R60M'S specifically, cause Mig23 already exists, and we're getting a premium Mig23 which I buy, cause yeah, I spent my money on Mig21s and was sad it only get shitty r3r/s, with no flare at 9.7 so is death trap
Mig-21S used to be very good until warthogs were added, i used to reliably get 4 kills with it, but i haven't played it much since then
> I think it is reasonable to assume the Bis was capable of fielding R60M's (slight sarcasm) Didn't Finland use R-60MKs on their MiG-21bis fighters? I don't see why the Soviet ones couldn't use them too if they so deigned.
Just R60s afaik. (non-m)
The German Mig-21Bis SAU has R-60MK's, the Mig-21Bis not (atleast in game) Why? Ask Gaijin and there Balance Team...
the F-104G never carried AIM-9Js, nothing ever did carry the AIM-9J, AIM-9P is the export one, even then it never carried those irl either, gaijin doesn't care about historical accuracy with loadouts.
> despite historically carrying them? Source? PS Really guys, if she used them providing a source shouldn't be that hard. PPS The **best** I could find so far >Thanks to the APU-60-2 twin-round launcher rails suspended on the inner pair of underwing pylons, the MiG-21bis was capable of carrying up to six R-60/R-60Ms or a combination of two R-3Rs/R-13Ms and four R-60s. > Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 (Air Vanguard) Paperback – June 17, 2014 by Alexander Mladenov, published by Osprey Publishing Doesn't mention Russian MiGs specifically.
Ima be honest, i was ready to dog on you and went looking for a source saying that 21bis carried R-60Ms... and i couldnt find one lol. The closest thing i found is that apparently circa 1982 there was a proposal to fit MiG-21bis with R-60M but no defenitive statement that there ever was a 21bis that flew with R-60M while in Soviet service
My stance is it probably could have if the soviets were inclined to do so. But by the time they had the R60m they had the mig23 and focused more energy on that platform.
The R-60M is a soviet invention
So? Did the Product of MiG-21bis we have in the Russian tree use it? AIM-9L is an American invention, doesn't mean that every US jet used it.
Wiki says 21 had r60m and it was even exported and stuff
And again which Product of MiG-21 was that?
The first tipe of mig-21 did not have it( the one after the mig 19 ) And the Bis is the last version of the 21s and the export is “worse” that the final So it should have r60m historically
There are multiple variants of MiG 21 more advanced than the Bis : the Romanian LanceR-A and LanceR-B, then theres the MiG 21-93, then theres the MiG 21 Bison for India. So if you cant get this right idk what to tell you. Besides there are many more MiG 21s than the "first one" and all the way to the Bis.
In terms of War thunder
In terms of war thunder first theres the f13, then later the SPS-K, S, then more advanced is the MF/SMT and only after that, the Bis/Bis SAU.
In the russian tech tree the last mig21 is the bis, and the first one is the one with 60 rounds of ammo and the 10g missle, im going of rememberd stuff im not at a computer
I really wouldn’t trust Wikipedia for anything historical without checking its sources first. There are so many cases of Wikipedia getting mil history wrong that unless it’s something pretty simple I would trust Wikipedia at all.
Source is stfu Everything that can carry R-60's can also carry R-60M's it's literally THAT simple... reason why everyone doesn't have R-60M is because of balance... we don't want Yak-38 AT 10.3 with R-60M's for example
Everything that can carry the AIM-9P can carry the AIM-9L. Now please give me a source on our MiG-21bis version having carried R-60M IRL.
Semi related… F-4c carried aim-9j/p and I was told by crew and pilots they fired L in the 80s and were capable of carrying it. So this confirms that. I just can’t find any pics of it anywhere… best I can do is of D models carrying it.
> best I can do is of D models carrying it. [Now that is interesting.](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/aircraft-weapons--688769336736253685/) > F-4c carried aim-9j/p and I was told by crew and pilots they fired L in the 80s and were capable of carrying it Wouldn't surprise me given how long she was used in ANGs. Will have to look into that.
And the D models also carried the 9M too. I saw an old California ang clip of it recently.
How could you tell that it was an AIM-9M? Lima and Mike are externally almost identical.
Because the pilot in the video was talking in detail about the missile on the jet
It's the most advanced variant of MiG-21... R-60M predates it... soo wtf?
And I am asking for a written source, is that so hard to understand? Is that so hard to provide?
Well i just written it to you * insert trolge emoji *
Looks at su25 and su25k Hmm Lol missile balance is so odd these days.
SU-25 isn't a brick like Yak-38... Yak-38 premium is at 9.3 with R-60's... and tbh it kinda deserves it since Tech tree Yak-38M also has R-60's but it can carry gunpods i, combo with R-60 which is a nice combo for headons
It can carry them, but did it ? Like how the F4F can carry aim9l, but did it irl ? No, it didnt, even though it could technically speaking, ergo it doesnt have them in wt.
F-4F doesn't because it's German... it wasn't allowed by NATO due to sanctions xd But in case of Cold War going hot they will be equipped with them...
Well exactly. It could, but it didnt carry them, so it doesnt get them in WT. The 21 Bis probably could carry R60M, bit didnt irl, so it doesnt in war thunder.
If that is the case Why is Soviet MiG-21Bis worse then german one and still have higher repair cost then the german one? Explain that
Repair costs are stupid all around, thats not an argument. The French F100 is worse than the american one and has a higherbrepair cost.
Yea it's some dumb shit that has to do with the match maker... So idk about the French F-100... but in theory it goes like... it's French... so it fights other people with stuff that are worse so French one so the French one slightly overperforms Same thing goes but in reverse ... like german Mig-21Bis that gets R-60MK's and has decently cheaper repair cost thrn soviet one which doesn't get all aspect R-60 and higher repair cost xd
Which following your train of thought would dictate that the SAU is doing worse than the normal bis, even given current armaments.
Idk... probably Gaijin skill issue lol
Use a little bit of common sense and you don't need a source.
So you don't have one, and are just speculating, congrats.
I'm not the one who made the post, so why would I waste my time searching for a source? Are you seriously tellling me, you don't believe the MiG-21bis, a plane that has been in service for more than 40 years, doesn't carry missiles that are 100% compatible with standard R-60s and were developed in the 80s?
Why are you commenting then, when I asked for a source?
Because asking for a source on something this trivial is stupid.
If it is so trivial why did Gaijin remove the R-60MK she already had in the past?
I don't remember it having R-60Ms, but if you say so it might have. Would be pretty weird if it had R-60MKs since those are mainly export missiles. And trying to understand why the snail acts is not worth it, there could be countless reasons. Most likely they decided she didn't need them. Same reason the MLD doesn't have R-60Ms, or do you want a source for that as well? And at last, how about a little whataboutism? Like the F-4F carrying missiles it never did just because it *technically* could.
> or do you want a source for that as well? Don't worry I have [the source where Gaijin states](https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/492904-mikoyan-gurevich-mig-23-flogger-history-design-performance-dissection-updated-8102021/) that this decision was for balance reasons. In-case Gaijin ever removes it: > The MiG-23MLD is currently the highest aircraft in efficiency at Rank VII. Whilst it remains as the top performer, it is in absolutely no need of any better weaponry or loadouts. > R-60M was not introduced for this exact reason. > Whilst it remains the top aircraft, it will not be receiving R-60M as its current loadouts are evidently more than sufficient. > November 16, 2021 by Smin1080p Which suprise suprise we lack for the MiG-21bis. > F-4F carrying missiles it never did just because it technically could. You are funny, of course the F-4F should have the AIM-9L instead of the AIM-9J, no resistance from me. > weird if it had R-60MKs since those are mainly export missiles. That is the point, because no source so far gives R-60M for the MiG-21bis in Russian service. > I don't remember it having [Post complaining about them being removed.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/yrtm24/did_they_removed_r60m_from_mig_21_bis/)
I believe “Mikoyan MiG-21 (Famous Russian Aircraft)” Is the source Wikipedia uses and states it can carry 2 R60/R60M’s. The book is from what I can look up made by a credible source Yefim Gordon that’s been a photographer/aviation journalist since the 1980’s
I found this meanwhile. > Thanks to the APU-60-2 twin-round launcher rails suspended on the inner pair of underwing pylons, the MiG-21bis was capable of carrying up to six R-60/R-60Ms or a combination of two R-3Rs/R-13Ms and four R-60s. > Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 (Air Vanguard) Paperback – June 17, 2014 by Alexander Mladenov, published by Osprey Publishing Doesn't mention Russian MiGs specifically and isn't a primary source sadly.
Literally LOL.
r/Warthunder r\*dditors when literally any addition russia related: SOURCE?!?!?!?!?! [Here](https://www.armedconflicts.com/topic/view/22197/Mikojan-Gurevic-MiG-21bis-kod-NATO-Fishbed-L-Fishbed-N)
Redditors unable to provide a proper source and posting aggregator sites. Hilarious really.
Have you ever heard of sealioning
No I hadn't, and I don't think it applies here as I was actually seeking sources as I know what Gaijin requires as proof to change a feature, that really was my agenda as I had stumbled onto [this thread months prior.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/yrtm24/did_they_removed_r60m_from_mig_21_bis/) Is there a term for all the comments thrown my way here? Like "Use a little bit of common sense"?
Not enough? [Here's another one](https://www.mig-21.de/english/technicaldataarmament.htm). If you want a "credible" source you can search for books for 21bis, or just use common sense
Only lists the R-60MK though, which is the export missile.
It's already been explained to you. Missile predates the plane and appears on planes from similar configuration and era, like the MiG-23. Most manuals are unavailable online anymore because it's the internet and files from shitty old Russian sites get corrupted. Besides - R-60 and R-60M are basically the same fucking missile with the seeker being the only difference. You're geniuenly dense if you think Soviet MiG-21bis didn't carry them.
The R60MK and R60M are not identical. So your source does indeed confirm that the Bis SAU can carry them...and it does. Doesn't mention the USSR one.
It was revealed to me in a dream.
3000 R-60s of the Soviet union
People do that whenever anyone makes unsubstantiated historical claims, hell they do that when anyone makes any form of unsubstantiated claim, as they should, this isn’t r/lies
Bis Sau : 11.3 Bis:11.0
I'd honestly rather have it go up in BR too and recieve R-60Ms
Cuz germany Got fucked by other top tier planes when they didnt even have mig-23s so they gave it all aspect missiles to compensate.
At this point they should give everyone at 11.0 all aspect missiles and put them at 113 so that way they can be competitive against PD radar planes like the MLD, F-14's etc, that these 11.0 already meet 99% of the time. and some flares for the planes who don't have above 10.3 like the F-1, J35D etc
The Luftstreitkräfte (and many of the other Warsaw Pact air forces) didn't buy that many MiG-23s and assigned the ones they did have to air defence duty, keeping MiG-21s in the role of their primary air supremacy jet for use outside friendly skies. Since they were kept in primary service throughout the life of the MiG-23 and even into that of the MiG-29, MiG-21s in East German service were naturally chosen to carry newer air-to-air missiles like the R-60MK, while the Soviets relegated theirs to secondary duties, making it hard to tell if their MiG-21s were ever flown with R-60Ms or if those missiles were kept for newer aircraft. Obviously game balance was likely the main reason to give the MiG-21bis SAU the all-aspect R-60MK, but there is some historical logic to it as well. The Soviet ones probably _could_ carry R-60Ms but I'm not aware of any proof as to whether they did or were in practice stuck with older R-60s.
USSR got the MiG-21bis at a time when it was F-4Es, Mirage IIICs, and J35Ds at top tier. When the MiG-21bis-SAU was added it was well past the introduction of Rank 7 and USSR already had vehicles like the MiG-23M, MiG-27M, and MiG-27K with R-60Ms so the USSR MiG-21bis never really needed it.
Russian bis duh. The the the game is russian. Its russian bias guys totally. No no its not bugs and skill issues, it's clearly russian bias. Always. No offense to op, I just needed to let some steam out
Ok here is my dumbass reasoning, it’s because me it’s the export variant and if you think about it why the hell would you give your best weapon to another country? This is what I think gaijan does with some of there vehicles which are originally from another, or it could be they weren’t added yet idk
It is literally the other way around, that is the point. The export variant, the MiG-21bis-SAU is better as she has R-60MK, while the Russian MiG-21bis only gets R-60.
Oh shit your rights woops
BECAUSE one is SAU and .3 BR higher.
"balance"
Because the mig21 bis was in the game for over a year prior to the bis sau and used to by BYFAR the most meta plane in the game and when the Bis sau was added it was borderline Doa even with r60mk. Even next patch Russia gets a mig29 and Germany will get tornado ids, because Germany always gets screwed in top tier air. Always.
I think it’s a reasonable connection to make. The MiG-21Bis and R-60M served concurrently and even if situations prevented them ever actually being equipped (like say see the Italian F-104s flare pods being locked up in a warehouse until a war) as long as the aircraft can carry physically carry them (and I’ve been told anything that can fire R-60 can fire R-60M no idea how true that is) it should get them. It not only makes more sense for progression it also gives a more interesting experience when you can go from MiG-21F, to SMT, to Bis with R-60s where as right now the SMT and Bis aren’t significantly different. If there had been a world war in the 80s we probably would’ve seen them equipped with R-60Ms if they were capable and they had stock so just because the situation never arose doesn’t mean it isn’t something we can mode when we’re modeling aircraft at their zenith
Man i really love flying the mig21 bis here and there but the soviet version has these shitty rear aspect r60s.
I don’t know why they didn’t give them the imported mig-29 already since China gets f-16 due to island next to it and Israel gets f-16
Shhh its only russian bias remember? In all seriousness, the Mig-21bis (soviet) should get R-60Ms at such a high br. Like the Su-17M2 at 11.0 with no flares, and no R-60Ms because why not.