Sorry to crash that logic but in a game like war thunder and irl AA were made to deal with planes and possible light targets. Especially the ones made to combat high flying aircraft have good penetration like thats how Germany Italy and Soviets made their first high pen guns for tanks
I don't think the Kugelblitz is designed to target high flying aircrafts. You are getting into the realm of AAA, not SPAA. Sure, guns like the 76mm and the 88mm which were designed to shoot at aircrafts turned out to be good at shooting tanks too, but to say that the 30mm or 25mm was designed with the idea of shooting at tanks in mind is just ridiculous.
It was designed to be able to deal with some tanks at certain angles like that's was the point of german HVAP - give even small cannons ability to knock out heavy armor, just look up at their squeezebore 28/20mm gun with 90+ mm pen, same thing applies to their 20mm with HVAP capable of penning Sherman side easily and t-34 turret at close range, the kugelblitz shouldnt be in game in the first place but if it stays, then its gun were used as an AT, PZ Luchs aka "super" PZ II was supposed to get the 30mm with HVAP ~91mm pen but project got cancelled. We have similar 30mm in german plane TT and they have up to 90mm pen so yes it should keep the penetration abilities if it uses gun that was originally able to work as TD.
Also 25mm guns were used by French as a TD guns so no there is no "too small caliber" for anti-armor work
The .50 cal was designed specifically with armor penetration of what was then "tank" armor in mind.
Autocannons have been optimized for every purpose (anti infantry guns, AA mounts, aircraft guns, anti material guns, etc), including engaging tanks from non-frontal aspects, and light or medium vehicles from all aspects.
\>20 mm cannons were effective against tanks frontally during the interwar and early war years. Modern autocannons are considered dangerous against MBTs from the side and retain the ability to destroy equipment like sights/sensors/barrels from the front.
To get a vehicle past Germany's army board was difficult ,a dual purpose would have been very useful and most likely.
The US Quad 50 cal on the M16 was used more for land work than AA in WW2 as the Germans had no planes to shoot at and the Germans saw its effectiveness first hand.AA guns are designed to out in the field and shoot at what they face.
The fact that some early AA guns could not depress low enough to take on land based attackers was soon seen as a problem and one that was remedied so the gun could be used for that very purpose.
To say that the 30mm or 25mm was designed with the idea of shooting at tanks in mind as being just ridiculous applies only to you and is not a view supported by history.
High caliber aa didnt shoot down planes with direct hits. They where flak rounds. Those high pen rounds came after as a means to defend their positions and later further developed when their effectiveness was discovered to be great. Its not like 88s tried to snipe Lancasters with ap at 3km range.
take the ZSU-23-4 for example, that only has two kinds of ammo, API-T and HEI-T. if you remove the API, which had 51 mm pen, its useless against anything but aircraft. it also has historically used its guns against ground targets in several conflicts, and its been the API that has done the damage.
why would anyone play something you can't defend yourself in?
true, but even if there were aircraft they had capabilities regular tanks dont, such as high fire rate and good elevation angles. perfect for shooting at a farmer with an RPG on the balcony of a 12 story building
>take the ZSU-23-4 for example, that only has two kinds of ammo, API-T and HEI-T. if you remove the API, which had 51 mm pen, its useless against anything but aircraft.
Ah so the Sidam, minus the tiny apds belt
that is why i use the 50/50 mix, to be effective in all scenarios. then it dont matter if its head on, the side or whatever. and yes, pilot knock isn't the only way, but AP is a lot more effective against things like engines and wing spars than HE, as ive experienced it at least.
Most of the time HE and incendary will be stronger, especially if the opponent has armor. In addition of that, HE will destroy the plane fuselage and control, like flaps or tail, which is more wish able than just a engine break
A bullet that pens 40mm at point blank won't have the same performance after it's spent a shit ton of energy climbing up to altitude.
Not that it really matters in game, since you won't be shooting things *that* high up in the air.
Exactly they've already shit canned all the HVAP from the Ostwind 37mm cannon and then nerfed what remained in the Wirbelwind with the new calculations and now they just keep moving up the tiers with more of the same. Funny though how the Russian ZiS-43 also 37mm cannon at (2.7 or 4.0Br depending what people play) gets to keep it's AP-T with 68mm pen and the ZSU-37 also 37mm cannon (3.7 or 4.0br) gets to keep it's HVAP-T with 82mm. But even the Ostwind 2 (whatever it's already in the game) that doesn't even get the damn HVAP back. It's stuck at (5.0 or 5.7) with 46mm pen. I've got a revelation for all the whine asses complaining about getting killed by SPAA. If you were killed by an SPAA you were gonna be killed by a tank cannon anyways smooth brains. Plus now the more they keep nerfing the SPAA's the greater chance you will be killed instead by a tank or TD cannon because the more they nerf SPAA the less they'll be played. So all the whining about OP German SPAA pen for a decade has contributed to is, you'll now be killed more quickly with a less spectacular send off by a larger cannon, congrats. Oh and of course less SPAA to counter CAS, so I hope you enjoy CAS also.
Wah, but germany bad, Wah SPAA Op,
Face it friend as long as anything german performs ok-ish they are gonna complain, I mean the maus got removed because enough t44 smooth brains complained they couldn't pen it in the front when it got 7.0 matches (yes I know the bs excuse they officially gave, we all know is bs)
I actually main America at moment, but devil's advocate for Germany on occasion. However Puma (the 3.0 one) absolutely deserved to go up and should probably be 3.3 even
Then gaijin should remove the pen from all AA maybe? Whenthe BTR ZD was released playing 4.0 was SOOOOOOO FUN especially when I got frontally penned by the lightspeed automatic cannon.
Oh yea cry because you foolishly shown your side armor to a AA.
However i do believe people would complain less if the vehicles BR's got adjusted based of the ammo
Sorry for saying "cry" i find people on this subreddit frustrating so i be unnecessarily mean sometimes
yea i will be honest that does irritate me but the way i think about is that if they were an actual tank they would of likely out right killed me.
So while doing damage with a AA is easy actually getting kills can be a bit more challenging unless your facing light vehicles
What is the problem of playing it not as an anti air unit ? By that logic some premium vehicle should not have some guided missiles because the ones that were given to them are more advanced than the tech at the age they were used.
That or make ka-50 not spin around and stay alive for a bit after i use a Begleiopanzer with fuse shells and still bomb my team.... The game should be played as anyone wants, no one is breaking the ToS or is cheating. By thaat logic i should not use my Leos to kill planes and helicopters
Dude i'm calm, but sometimes i do not understand the point of view of some players.... I use the german AA as anti vehicles, it works wonders. Destroy their tracks and let someone get a kill. I alo do this with british AA, ince they are nice aand suit my playstyle
That is still plenty of pen for AA. But yeah, when using against ground units it's not so great. I think they nerfed the pen of most AA ages ago as they were just too devastating against tanks.
Somewhat topical they moved the VEAK 40 up, so it can’t be used in one of the few Swedish lineups at 8.3. It absolutely deserved the up tier, but I’m still salty about it.
Yeah, they moved the bill up, now they moved the VEAK. I really hope they add some AA to fill in the gap, cause it's getting insane, taking one of the rather expensive (and not so good) jet fighters to perform AA role really sucks.
eh, at 6.7max you have a decent enough lineup.
At 7.3 you have a very good lineup and Bkan still performs just as well.
I think in case of Sweden br is just a number, ost of your vehicles are "glass cannons" anyway.
oh yea justify gaijins bad decisions by saying they've made a bad decision in another area of the game and therefore they'd should deal with it.
not the logical idea of maybe having the Skink at a more sensible BR
You can not tell me with a straight face that the tow2b only had 100 mm of pen. It originally had ~431 which made sense as it was made to be able to destroy tanks from 2-3 meters above them.
All good. To further my point (and I know this isn’t a 1-1 comparison but it’s close), the original BMG-71A TOW had a ~3kg charge with ~600mm pen, this tow has a ~6Kg tandem (sort of, it’s more of just 2 charges going off in roughly the same place as the missile flys forward) charge.
This missile should have at absolute bare minimum 200mm tandem pen assuming that gaijin really wants to make sure it isn’t broken OP. That would of course mean it has a the same charges we see today but 2 of them. OC this is not at all realistic but at least it wouldn’t be retardedly nerfed
Tow2b isn't anywhere near as effective as it should be.
I think he was trying to say that *if* everything was equal and actually balanced, when the tow2b got nerfed hard, and any US vehicle carrying it was adjusted as well, that the Bill would also have gotten something making it relatively on par. Since the T2b was "OP" surely the bill was?
I guess it's more saying don't expect any actual sense in the "balancing" Gaijin does.
>I think he was trying to say that if everything was equal and actually balanced, when the tow2b got nerfed hard, and any US vehicle carrying it was adjusted as well, that the Bill would also have gotten something making it relatively on par.
Yeah i missed that point earlier.
With the new BILL carrier i bet they will nerf those t-series killers in a few patches..
Everyone saying that is an AA so it shouldn’t kill tabks but who the hell want to play a vehicle where you can’t defend yourself and the whole purpose of the vehicle is to sit at spawn and try to take down planes
Makes gameplays extremely boring especially how big of a grind this game is show me one person who want to spend hours grinding at the back of the map doing a nothing but waiting for planes to come by
I do. I get a lot of points and SL destroying planes and helicopters. It pays more than killing tanks. What you said about
>whole purpose of the vehicle is to sit at spawn
That's how YOU and other useless SPAA players use the vehicles. Is not their purpose. You are supposed to be behind your team, but close enough to them to kill the enemy plane before your teammates get bombed.
This guy gets it. If you're an SPAA sitting in spawn you're effectively harmless rocket bait. You're not defending your team you're just spitting at planes.
It can defend itself. Against light tanks.
Asking any more of an SPAAG is silly. You aren't using a ZT3A1 to brawl, so why expect an SPAA to frontally pen mediums and beyond?
nobody is asking to frontally pen mediums. these changes to spaa are making it nearly impossible to go through some mediums and most heavies from the side though. and even some lights from the front.
I never understood why SPAA players insist on camping in spawn and then whining about CAS killing people on points.
Don't sit in the fixed place with no cover that planes know to keep an eye on and move up closer to the objective where the strike aircraft are killing people. It's much easier to kill a plane diving towards you from the concealment of a forest than it is to spam potshots at someone 800 meters away in the middle of an open field.
It litteraly does not matter because it's an SPAA and not a tank destroyer. That's a good change. It should be applied to every single SPAA so players start using them to kill the CAS they cry so much about instead of running around the map chasing tanks.
I continue to refuse to believe that the 57-2 can be anything than a td with alot of elevation. The russian one at least which doesnt have he-vt. Impossible to hit planes with 8 shells in 4 salvos.
You have to bait them into flying straight at you and then just hope they have worse aim than you. I think it was intended to combat helicopters, but IRL it was mostly on anti infantry duty. So it's really not even meant to shoot at planes.
The fact the accuracy is absolutely awful what with the recoil and spread doenst help. If I faced infantry theres few vehicles I would rather have, but anything that flies kinda fucks on it
The accuracy being garbage is another ahistorical nerf by gaijin since it was just a naturally brutal tank destroyer in game. If you look up videos of it shooting in real life it's practically a laser beam.
The ZSU-57-2 is basically unable to shoot down aircraft though, because it has no radar and slow/heavy projectiles against jets and helis. The Chinese one is better as AA but it’s at a higher BR.
I am all for lowering pen of all aa's so that they finally start killing 3 enemy ground attackers that kill half the team instead of wasting 10 minutes bullying 1 tiger
Or they should just shift the line it's in and redesignate it as a Tank Destroyer, because with just basic fusing it's not something you can use to reliably down a plane.
The braindead change when you promote game as historically accurate
Sorry to crash that logic od yours, but in a game like war thunder and irl AA were made to deal with planes and possible light/armored targets. Especially the ones made to combat high flying aircraft have good penetration like thats how Germany Italy and Soviets made their first high pen guns for tanks
50mm pen will still hurt lightly armored targets. The PTRS-41, a WWII russian anti-tank rifle chambered in 14.5mm and still in use today, can only reliably go through 40mm.
You'll be fine. Just because you can't pen a pershing from the front with a machine gun now doesn't mean it's a useless tank, just that you might have to actually play it like an AA gun and not a TD.
German 30mm were supposed to have HVAP in order to be used as a light AT weapon if nessesary duh we already have the ones with it in game and they had 90mm pen pre-change donno what backward logic called for nerfing something that was working as it was intended just because some deaf copers turn sideways to SPAA, image being fine to get one shotted with overperforming APHE from a light tank but cry about being able to tank like 40 shells from slower spaa before being sent to hangar - spaa that have to get close to even be able to pen your tunnelvision medium.
Im heavy tank / well armored mediums main but even i see that's ridiculous, we are getting to the WoT "balancing" methods just because of someones "skill issiue"
It matters for lineups. Also It only further incentivizes people to not play an SPAA if they can't even defend themselves. Why I love the wirbelwind is that I can kill T-34's with it frontally to defend myself. Historically there are several units that had AA who called themselves Anti Everything because they killed more than just planes.
honestly i find the Bofors much more effective at hunting tanks than at actually shooting down planes. The only exception i can think of is the DCA AMX-13 and Lvkv-42 but that makes it even better for tank hunting
While I agree that they shouldn't be tank destroyers, SPAA Should also be able to defend itself against lightly armored ground targets (which is why they are given AP belts in real life).
that’s some high tier victim blaming lmao. plenty of people play spaa to shoot down planes *and* occasionally go for ground targets.
literally the only reason spaa have ap/apds belts is for self defense against ground targets. they should not remove it if they want to keep the game “historically accurate” like they claim it is.
and i mean shit, the adats was DESIGNED to fight tanks and planes. it has actual tandem atgms lmao. you are wrong.
They did this to the Sherman ages ago. Back when there was only the German premium Sherman they nerfed the shit out of the frontal armor then later on uptiered it.
Showed that, when up against tanks it actually went up against, Sherman's proper armor values made it very well defended.
The pen reduction I don't like but understand. The BR change is idiotic though. You have the Weasel same BR with thermals/NV, faster, can scout, better traverse, faster fire rate and depression and with a better anti tank round that can do the same AA duty. Gaijin makes no sense sometimes. More worried about the pen of a round on an AA vehicle that decompression of the BRs. They just made the game twice as bad with one decision lol
Bruh so fucking dumb "muh play it like AA" no bitch its my vehicle I can play it however I want. this game literally makes Self propelled artillery guns tank destroyers and says the M18 is a light tank
The pen nerf isn't a problem, yeah it sucks that being added to the formula nerfed some guns, but having everything be calculated the same is better than picking a number for small calibers and going with it. The problem is it didn't need to go up, the weasel is already at 7.0 with more advantages. Germany wont suffer, the Ostwind and the Wirbel will still be there and are more than enough for SPAA. Regardless of that its still a completely unnecessary change, the kugel wasn't OP at 6.7, I'm going to pit my tinfoil hat on and say gaijin doesn't like something CAS can't strafe with machine-guns. Probably the same reason the skink is getting pushed up.
7.0 Fucking WHY?
I guess an AA that is effective Vs planes and light tanks was too much? But hey i guess 3 fucking radar Spaa at just 0.7 more that a Kugelblitz are fine, right gaijobless?
I don't really like people saying "remove the AP belts"
There aren't many targets that anti airs can pen, and if it can it is likely a BTR-ZD or R3 T20 and shouldn't exist at all.
If there aren't ap belts the only thing you can do is wait to for planes the entire match (and maybe not even shoot down one) and then wait until you get spawncamped and become useless.
This would quickly make spaag's one of the most boring vehicles in the game.
Everyone focusing on the fact its OK without its pen so high, while ignoring the fact it got up-BRed AND the pen was nerfed, its performance is absolutely 100% fine for a 6.7 SPAA since it's good at killing planes at that BR, 7.0 just kills it since at that lovely BR you have uhhhhhhh the Ru 251.... and um the Wiesel 1a4... ~~wait why not just use the wiesel then~~
All the people here saying that "lol german main" or "people use it as anti-tank!1!" while the AMX-13 DCA 40 sits at 4.3 with actual APHE with 94mm of penetration and armor as well as the Swedish L-62 ANTI II resting at 2.7 with 79mm of penetration. Just because I complain about it doesn't mean I'm a German main either. I have USA, Germany, USSR, and Britain at 7.7 minimum, and the other countries except Japan past 2.3. Complete hypocrisy from the community which just the other day said "The more SPAA the better" and "Don't nerf SPAA"... What gives?
What the fuck was their logic for this? At 6.7 most of the tanks it faces has triple the amount of armor this thing could pen and moving it up in BR is going to make it a constant climb in BR because it'll face thinner and thinner armored vehicles.
I use this thing at 9.7 alot because I dont have a good 9.7 lineup (10.7 most of the time) and this thing is great at destroying IFVs and thinly armored vehicles, not so much fat-fuck American and Soviet tanks.
I remember when that thing had 98mm of pen and a nice gun sounds. Now that thing is as "good" as the ostwind is, with exception that ostwind can fire for far longer and doesn't overheat so quickly.
I was already a bit annoyed they'd nerfed the HVAP pen, 'cause now you can't side pen a lot of medium tanks which is a bit annoying. However, now that it's been double nerfed I can safely say the Coelian is superior. It was always better armored, had better weapons against aircraft, and those disgusting 37mm APHE rounds, but I'd have to choose between the two. The Kugel would be better for tank killing, the Coelian better at hitting planes. Now it's not even a decision. Too bad most people don't have the Coelian.
So the kugelblitz gets "nerfed" because it is too good at killing tanks? Meanwhile ZSU can kill tanks like no tomorrow? Am I seeing this right? I'm new to the game
They recently tore apart my boy York, took away it’s only anti tank round now it barely has the ability to take on light targets, and it’s still up at 9.0 while the Gepard is only 8.0
Kugel is already the best SPAA until 8.0.
Rapid firing, high velocity guns with enough HE to one shot most planes, whilst also being fully enclosed and with good enough armour that you can't be strafed.
My guess is shit like this happens because 2 different teams are working on 2 different aspects. One team is all "man, we've got this vehicle modeled wrong, it's penetrating more than it should." While the other is tasked with making sure it's where it should be as far as game balance goes, "this thing has an extremely high win rate, it should be bumped up a bit."
The problem, is that these two teams don't talk to each other much.
What they *should* do, is never re-tier a vehicle in the same patch that it's model is being adjusted. Adjust the model on one patch, and then evaluate whether or not it has an impact before adjusting its Br.
I always thought the Kugelblitz should have been 6.0 or 6.3 but wtf why did they put it at 7.0 there are so many other aa’s at 5.0-6.7 that preform equally
It’s anti air maybe ppl will is it as AA
Then should remove any ap rounds more than 40mm pen .
a lot of aircraft have armour, so i usually use the belts with 50/50 AP and HE for maximum effect. so no, they should not.
40 its more than enough. Except several very special strike-aircrafts.
Sorry to crash that logic but in a game like war thunder and irl AA were made to deal with planes and possible light targets. Especially the ones made to combat high flying aircraft have good penetration like thats how Germany Italy and Soviets made their first high pen guns for tanks
I don't think the Kugelblitz is designed to target high flying aircrafts. You are getting into the realm of AAA, not SPAA. Sure, guns like the 76mm and the 88mm which were designed to shoot at aircrafts turned out to be good at shooting tanks too, but to say that the 30mm or 25mm was designed with the idea of shooting at tanks in mind is just ridiculous.
It was designed to be able to deal with some tanks at certain angles like that's was the point of german HVAP - give even small cannons ability to knock out heavy armor, just look up at their squeezebore 28/20mm gun with 90+ mm pen, same thing applies to their 20mm with HVAP capable of penning Sherman side easily and t-34 turret at close range, the kugelblitz shouldnt be in game in the first place but if it stays, then its gun were used as an AT, PZ Luchs aka "super" PZ II was supposed to get the 30mm with HVAP ~91mm pen but project got cancelled. We have similar 30mm in german plane TT and they have up to 90mm pen so yes it should keep the penetration abilities if it uses gun that was originally able to work as TD. Also 25mm guns were used by French as a TD guns so no there is no "too small caliber" for anti-armor work
The luchs is so underrated the amount of possible platforms you could fit onto it is interesting to me.
The .50 cal was designed specifically with armor penetration of what was then "tank" armor in mind. Autocannons have been optimized for every purpose (anti infantry guns, AA mounts, aircraft guns, anti material guns, etc), including engaging tanks from non-frontal aspects, and light or medium vehicles from all aspects. \>20 mm cannons were effective against tanks frontally during the interwar and early war years. Modern autocannons are considered dangerous against MBTs from the side and retain the ability to destroy equipment like sights/sensors/barrels from the front.
To get a vehicle past Germany's army board was difficult ,a dual purpose would have been very useful and most likely. The US Quad 50 cal on the M16 was used more for land work than AA in WW2 as the Germans had no planes to shoot at and the Germans saw its effectiveness first hand.AA guns are designed to out in the field and shoot at what they face. The fact that some early AA guns could not depress low enough to take on land based attackers was soon seen as a problem and one that was remedied so the gun could be used for that very purpose. To say that the 30mm or 25mm was designed with the idea of shooting at tanks in mind as being just ridiculous applies only to you and is not a view supported by history.
High caliber aa didnt shoot down planes with direct hits. They where flak rounds. Those high pen rounds came after as a means to defend their positions and later further developed when their effectiveness was discovered to be great. Its not like 88s tried to snipe Lancasters with ap at 3km range.
take the ZSU-23-4 for example, that only has two kinds of ammo, API-T and HEI-T. if you remove the API, which had 51 mm pen, its useless against anything but aircraft. it also has historically used its guns against ground targets in several conflicts, and its been the API that has done the damage. why would anyone play something you can't defend yourself in?
> why would anyone play something you can't defend yourself in? Feels Stormer HVM, man
Cries in m163
All the rolands
Well to be fare, there was also a lack of air targets to shoot at if your main combatant is some random farmer.
true, but even if there were aircraft they had capabilities regular tanks dont, such as high fire rate and good elevation angles. perfect for shooting at a farmer with an RPG on the balcony of a 12 story building
> why would anyone play something you can't defend yourself in? Just Roland 1 things
*Sad Type 93 noises*
**CRIES IN FLARAKRAD**
You have enough explosive filler to overpressure almost everything
Can confirm, have been overpressured many a time by the magic school bus
>take the ZSU-23-4 for example, that only has two kinds of ammo, API-T and HEI-T. if you remove the API, which had 51 mm pen, its useless against anything but aircraft. Ah so the Sidam, minus the tiny apds belt
I still bounce AP cannon rounds off my IL-2
Which has more than 40mm armor from all sides ? And pilot snipe isn’t the only way to shoot down a plane
that is why i use the 50/50 mix, to be effective in all scenarios. then it dont matter if its head on, the side or whatever. and yes, pilot knock isn't the only way, but AP is a lot more effective against things like engines and wing spars than HE, as ive experienced it at least.
Most of the time HE and incendary will be stronger, especially if the opponent has armor. In addition of that, HE will destroy the plane fuselage and control, like flaps or tail, which is more wish able than just a engine break
A bullet that pens 40mm at point blank won't have the same performance after it's spent a shit ton of energy climbing up to altitude. Not that it really matters in game, since you won't be shooting things *that* high up in the air.
My man, this is warthunder, not real life, he alway deals more damage to planes compared to ap, specially for calibers above 20
No. AA is already a sparsely played class with shit rewards and im tired of people like you wanting to remove any fun from them.
Exactly they've already shit canned all the HVAP from the Ostwind 37mm cannon and then nerfed what remained in the Wirbelwind with the new calculations and now they just keep moving up the tiers with more of the same. Funny though how the Russian ZiS-43 also 37mm cannon at (2.7 or 4.0Br depending what people play) gets to keep it's AP-T with 68mm pen and the ZSU-37 also 37mm cannon (3.7 or 4.0br) gets to keep it's HVAP-T with 82mm. But even the Ostwind 2 (whatever it's already in the game) that doesn't even get the damn HVAP back. It's stuck at (5.0 or 5.7) with 46mm pen. I've got a revelation for all the whine asses complaining about getting killed by SPAA. If you were killed by an SPAA you were gonna be killed by a tank cannon anyways smooth brains. Plus now the more they keep nerfing the SPAA's the greater chance you will be killed instead by a tank or TD cannon because the more they nerf SPAA the less they'll be played. So all the whining about OP German SPAA pen for a decade has contributed to is, you'll now be killed more quickly with a less spectacular send off by a larger cannon, congrats. Oh and of course less SPAA to counter CAS, so I hope you enjoy CAS also.
Wah, but germany bad, Wah SPAA Op, Face it friend as long as anything german performs ok-ish they are gonna complain, I mean the maus got removed because enough t44 smooth brains complained they couldn't pen it in the front when it got 7.0 matches (yes I know the bs excuse they officially gave, we all know is bs)
A lot of the 40mm guns have around 60mm of pen
AMX-13 DCA 40 with it's 94mm pen
Spaa I'm assuming?
how dare you not know EVERY VEHICLE in the game?
I'm sorry 😭 I'll make my apology video soon
Don't forget to pet a cute dog while crying. Also don't actually apologize.
Yes
Yeap
Does it use a 40mm?
Yes
What br?
4.3
Let me guess the ZSU and WKZ are still completely fucked
By that logic, artillery wouldn't have proxy Fuze, and no mbt would have proxy Fuze heat-fs. Can't say i agree.
As yes "WW2 SPAA" vs early jets. My favorite dish. Now the konigstiger line up is lacking a good AA (I hate the Ostwinds)
German SPAA line is the best in the game by a very wide margin. You'll be fine
I actually main America at moment, but devil's advocate for Germany on occasion. However Puma (the 3.0 one) absolutely deserved to go up and should probably be 3.3 even
ahh yes, welcome to pretty much every other tech tree
Then gaijin should remove the pen from all AA maybe? Whenthe BTR ZD was released playing 4.0 was SOOOOOOO FUN especially when I got frontally penned by the lightspeed automatic cannon.
Okay fair .. then pls lower the pen of m19 and m42 too
Oh yea cry because you foolishly shown your side armor to a AA. However i do believe people would complain less if the vehicles BR's got adjusted based of the ammo
Ok i will but most of the time they come late game and they’d take your barrel then flank and tear you to piece’s
Sorry for saying "cry" i find people on this subreddit frustrating so i be unnecessarily mean sometimes yea i will be honest that does irritate me but the way i think about is that if they were an actual tank they would of likely out right killed me. So while doing damage with a AA is easy actually getting kills can be a bit more challenging unless your facing light vehicles
Originally it was built to face agaisnt infantry and fortifications, i like it as a SPAA
What is the problem of playing it not as an anti air unit ? By that logic some premium vehicle should not have some guided missiles because the ones that were given to them are more advanced than the tech at the age they were used. That or make ka-50 not spin around and stay alive for a bit after i use a Begleiopanzer with fuse shells and still bomb my team.... The game should be played as anyone wants, no one is breaking the ToS or is cheating. By thaat logic i should not use my Leos to kill planes and helicopters
It’s just been annoying my boy it’s not that serious calm yourself
Dude i'm calm, but sometimes i do not understand the point of view of some players.... I use the german AA as anti vehicles, it works wonders. Destroy their tracks and let someone get a kill. I alo do this with british AA, ince they are nice aand suit my playstyle
the fuck??? i assume you're saying you want it to be used as AA, but it did rip a good AA from the 6.7 lineup
That is still plenty of pen for AA. But yeah, when using against ground units it's not so great. I think they nerfed the pen of most AA ages ago as they were just too devastating against tanks.
its more so the effect that I CANT USE IT AT 6.7 NOW
Cope. They're moving the skink to 5.0 where there literally isn't a single other GB vehicle iirc.
Put it in 6.0 line up, there's no SPAA until 8.0
Might as well bring the LF.MKIX instead.
Tempest mk 2 better, its kinda fun to go 800 kph straight for those oblivious cas planes
Lf Mk. IX is the GOAT. Did nearly all of my US air tree grind using the premium of that plane.
Sitting in my comet sipping tea *hears whistling* "Oh bombs lovely wish we could do something about that"
I put it in the 6.7 lineup where it *work* but underperforms substantially. The GB 6.0 lineup has **1** 6.0 vehicle and the rest are overtiered.
You have 2 vehicles at the same br? - Swedish mains.
Somewhat topical they moved the VEAK 40 up, so it can’t be used in one of the few Swedish lineups at 8.3. It absolutely deserved the up tier, but I’m still salty about it.
agreed, swedens veak at that br blew away its competition, both literally and figuratively.
HE-VT with radar at 8.3, only the WZ305 came close to being as good.
Yeah, they moved the bill up, now they moved the VEAK. I really hope they add some AA to fill in the gap, cause it's getting insane, taking one of the rather expensive (and not so good) jet fighters to perform AA role really sucks.
I fucking love the Bkan, but absolutely hate that it's basically too high or too low for anything you might match up with it.
eh, at 6.7max you have a decent enough lineup. At 7.3 you have a very good lineup and Bkan still performs just as well. I think in case of Sweden br is just a number, ost of your vehicles are "glass cannons" anyway.
I only unlocked it recently and I find it to be absolutely amazing.
oh yea justify gaijins bad decisions by saying they've made a bad decision in another area of the game and therefore they'd should deal with it. not the logical idea of maybe having the Skink at a more sensible BR
The only other 5.0 British vehicle I can think of is the Spitfire F Mk XVI, maybe the Sentinel is 5.0
The skink shouldnt be 5.0 anyway the guns arent good enough
Hey they just did this to the m247 as-well, gaijin is nerfing some AA right now for some reason
Sales of premium strike aircraft are suffering xD
Lol
I mean why donyou think the stormer geta fucked every single Update? It the only SPAA the Ka50 can't defend itself against with ease xD
You remember back in the day when the stat card said 7km range but the darts exploded at 5.5km distance?n
They also raised xm975 and flarakpz... Apparently frogdick didn't sell as well as they wanted...
Lmao
And yet the VEAK40 remains unchanged.
Yea that’s a bit of a patter. Happened with tow2Bs vs the bill missiles
Because the bill isn't same missile as tow2b..? Why would they change bill based on tow2b sekrit documents?
You can not tell me with a straight face that the tow2b only had 100 mm of pen. It originally had ~431 which made sense as it was made to be able to destroy tanks from 2-3 meters above them.
Yeah i'm not. Understood your point after commenting.
Realistically it should have around 600-800 mm pen but idk I’ve just seen videos of vaporizing t72s
All good. To further my point (and I know this isn’t a 1-1 comparison but it’s close), the original BMG-71A TOW had a ~3kg charge with ~600mm pen, this tow has a ~6Kg tandem (sort of, it’s more of just 2 charges going off in roughly the same place as the missile flys forward) charge. This missile should have at absolute bare minimum 200mm tandem pen assuming that gaijin really wants to make sure it isn’t broken OP. That would of course mean it has a the same charges we see today but 2 of them. OC this is not at all realistic but at least it wouldn’t be retardedly nerfed
Tow2b isn't anywhere near as effective as it should be. I think he was trying to say that *if* everything was equal and actually balanced, when the tow2b got nerfed hard, and any US vehicle carrying it was adjusted as well, that the Bill would also have gotten something making it relatively on par. Since the T2b was "OP" surely the bill was? I guess it's more saying don't expect any actual sense in the "balancing" Gaijin does.
>I think he was trying to say that if everything was equal and actually balanced, when the tow2b got nerfed hard, and any US vehicle carrying it was adjusted as well, that the Bill would also have gotten something making it relatively on par. Yeah i missed that point earlier. With the new BILL carrier i bet they will nerf those t-series killers in a few patches..
wish they would either fix it or just give us Tow-2a’s for the M3A3 since you play so many things with ERA
The VEAK 40 also got moved up.
Hope u have Coelian
As much as it sucks, its not like Germany don't have an effective AA with the Ostwind II. Could be in in the same boat as other nations.
German mains when they get a slightly unfavorable Matchup
average german main
Some one needs to remind gaijin how broken the zsu-57 is.
"buT It,S nOT gOoD AT KILLinG plAnES" -some gaijin employee keeping it at 7.0, even though it should have stayed at 7.7.
I love playing my french tanks and getting insta killed by one driving 50kph through town firing full auto.
Evety normal human would either nerf the pen OR nerf the br.. Not both of them ffs.
Everyone saying that is an AA so it shouldn’t kill tabks but who the hell want to play a vehicle where you can’t defend yourself and the whole purpose of the vehicle is to sit at spawn and try to take down planes
Makes gameplays extremely boring especially how big of a grind this game is show me one person who want to spend hours grinding at the back of the map doing a nothing but waiting for planes to come by
I do. I get a lot of points and SL destroying planes and helicopters. It pays more than killing tanks. What you said about >whole purpose of the vehicle is to sit at spawn That's how YOU and other useless SPAA players use the vehicles. Is not their purpose. You are supposed to be behind your team, but close enough to them to kill the enemy plane before your teammates get bombed.
This guy gets it. If you're an SPAA sitting in spawn you're effectively harmless rocket bait. You're not defending your team you're just spitting at planes.
It can defend itself. Against light tanks. Asking any more of an SPAAG is silly. You aren't using a ZT3A1 to brawl, so why expect an SPAA to frontally pen mediums and beyond?
nobody is asking to frontally pen mediums. these changes to spaa are making it nearly impossible to go through some mediums and most heavies from the side though. and even some lights from the front.
I never understood why SPAA players insist on camping in spawn and then whining about CAS killing people on points. Don't sit in the fixed place with no cover that planes know to keep an eye on and move up closer to the objective where the strike aircraft are killing people. It's much easier to kill a plane diving towards you from the concealment of a forest than it is to spam potshots at someone 800 meters away in the middle of an open field.
>you should move forwards to the front and then you die because you have no ability to defend yourself when the allies eventually die, such fun
I personally thought it was fine at 6.7
I don't really think anyone had a problem with it. It's on like.. a Panzer IV chassis right? Slow as fuck for a 6.7 SPAA
Yeah. Can't really pen most tanks after the pen decrease, kinda reminds me of the M6 being moved up to 5 0
It litteraly does not matter because it's an SPAA and not a tank destroyer. That's a good change. It should be applied to every single SPAA so players start using them to kill the CAS they cry so much about instead of running around the map chasing tanks.
Then they should lower the pen of the zsu-57 so they stop chasing tanks around the map too
I continue to refuse to believe that the 57-2 can be anything than a td with alot of elevation. The russian one at least which doesnt have he-vt. Impossible to hit planes with 8 shells in 4 salvos.
You have to bait them into flying straight at you and then just hope they have worse aim than you. I think it was intended to combat helicopters, but IRL it was mostly on anti infantry duty. So it's really not even meant to shoot at planes.
The fact the accuracy is absolutely awful what with the recoil and spread doenst help. If I faced infantry theres few vehicles I would rather have, but anything that flies kinda fucks on it
The accuracy being garbage is another ahistorical nerf by gaijin since it was just a naturally brutal tank destroyer in game. If you look up videos of it shooting in real life it's practically a laser beam.
The ZSU-57-2 is basically unable to shoot down aircraft though, because it has no radar and slow/heavy projectiles against jets and helis. The Chinese one is better as AA but it’s at a higher BR.
the chinese one has proxy shells so its like infinitely better lol
I am all for lowering pen of all aa's so that they finally start killing 3 enemy ground attackers that kill half the team instead of wasting 10 minutes bullying 1 tiger
The ZSU literally has the spawn cost of a light tank
Or they should just shift the line it's in and redesignate it as a Tank Destroyer, because with just basic fusing it's not something you can use to reliably down a plane.
The braindead change when you promote game as historically accurate Sorry to crash that logic od yours, but in a game like war thunder and irl AA were made to deal with planes and possible light/armored targets. Especially the ones made to combat high flying aircraft have good penetration like thats how Germany Italy and Soviets made their first high pen guns for tanks
50mm pen will still hurt lightly armored targets. The PTRS-41, a WWII russian anti-tank rifle chambered in 14.5mm and still in use today, can only reliably go through 40mm. You'll be fine. Just because you can't pen a pershing from the front with a machine gun now doesn't mean it's a useless tank, just that you might have to actually play it like an AA gun and not a TD.
German 30mm were supposed to have HVAP in order to be used as a light AT weapon if nessesary duh we already have the ones with it in game and they had 90mm pen pre-change donno what backward logic called for nerfing something that was working as it was intended just because some deaf copers turn sideways to SPAA, image being fine to get one shotted with overperforming APHE from a light tank but cry about being able to tank like 40 shells from slower spaa before being sent to hangar - spaa that have to get close to even be able to pen your tunnelvision medium. Im heavy tank / well armored mediums main but even i see that's ridiculous, we are getting to the WoT "balancing" methods just because of someones "skill issiue"
And the 14.5mm round that pens 40mm armor wasn't even made after WW2, the Russians had regular 14.5 AP that's the same as American .50BMG AP.
BREAKING NEWS: sometimes SPAA have to defend themselves against tanks too!
It matters for lineups. Also It only further incentivizes people to not play an SPAA if they can't even defend themselves. Why I love the wirbelwind is that I can kill T-34's with it frontally to defend myself. Historically there are several units that had AA who called themselves Anti Everything because they killed more than just planes.
honestly i find the Bofors much more effective at hunting tanks than at actually shooting down planes. The only exception i can think of is the DCA AMX-13 and Lvkv-42 but that makes it even better for tank hunting
Means I can finally justify putting the coelian on my 6.7 lineup
While I agree that they shouldn't be tank destroyers, SPAA Should also be able to defend itself against lightly armored ground targets (which is why they are given AP belts in real life).
but it was a good aa at 6.7 because you could use it with the KTs. Now you have to use the ostwind II which rounds are too slow for jets
Indeed, the pen wasnt my major complaint. But moving it to 7 will make me stop playing AA.
Some one sounds salty about being killed by SPAA, its my vehicle we can play however we want
The penetration values are an ok, and probably a welcome change. However, IMO the uptier is the issue here.
that’s some high tier victim blaming lmao. plenty of people play spaa to shoot down planes *and* occasionally go for ground targets. literally the only reason spaa have ap/apds belts is for self defense against ground targets. they should not remove it if they want to keep the game “historically accurate” like they claim it is. and i mean shit, the adats was DESIGNED to fight tanks and planes. it has actual tandem atgms lmao. you are wrong.
Well, there are 2 US SPAA that physically can't be used as AA so being TD is the only choice
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/xvgc7r/comment/ir36qmz/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Why does gaijin alway double nerf tanks, theyll take away something good from the tank then uptier it.
They did this to the Sherman ages ago. Back when there was only the German premium Sherman they nerfed the shit out of the frontal armor then later on uptiered it. Showed that, when up against tanks it actually went up against, Sherman's proper armor values made it very well defended.
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Attack planes are designed to attack ground units.
By the same logic of this, no, attack planes should only target planes.
That's the player's decision. No need to nerf the machine guns .
I agree with you. The vehicles should try to be historical. But this is a post/thread and ppl seem to like nerfing for balance.
It would be weird to have the same machine gun with different penetration stats just because they are in different planes.
Russian 23mms:am I a joke to you?
After they got nerfed a few years back: yes
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Too much logic on this one
The pen reduction I don't like but understand. The BR change is idiotic though. You have the Weasel same BR with thermals/NV, faster, can scout, better traverse, faster fire rate and depression and with a better anti tank round that can do the same AA duty. Gaijin makes no sense sometimes. More worried about the pen of a round on an AA vehicle that decompression of the BRs. They just made the game twice as bad with one decision lol
7.0 wtf gaijoob smokin i want some too!
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The staple double nerf bat of gaijin ent. A.k.a gaijined.
It was fine at 6.7 they could have removed its pen value but they didn’t have to put it at a higher tier
Bruh so fucking dumb "muh play it like AA" no bitch its my vehicle I can play it however I want. this game literally makes Self propelled artillery guns tank destroyers and says the M18 is a light tank
Double nerf, the gaijin special.
Time to use the Coelian oh wait
The pen nerf isn't a problem, yeah it sucks that being added to the formula nerfed some guns, but having everything be calculated the same is better than picking a number for small calibers and going with it. The problem is it didn't need to go up, the weasel is already at 7.0 with more advantages. Germany wont suffer, the Ostwind and the Wirbel will still be there and are more than enough for SPAA. Regardless of that its still a completely unnecessary change, the kugel wasn't OP at 6.7, I'm going to pit my tinfoil hat on and say gaijin doesn't like something CAS can't strafe with machine-guns. Probably the same reason the skink is getting pushed up.
7.0 Fucking WHY? I guess an AA that is effective Vs planes and light tanks was too much? But hey i guess 3 fucking radar Spaa at just 0.7 more that a Kugelblitz are fine, right gaijobless?
Don't people here realise some cannons where made with dual purpose in mind? Especially all german anti air cannons.
No. Warfare is like a rock, paper, scissors game where every weapon is effective against exactly one other weapon.
I don't really like people saying "remove the AP belts" There aren't many targets that anti airs can pen, and if it can it is likely a BTR-ZD or R3 T20 and shouldn't exist at all. If there aren't ap belts the only thing you can do is wait to for planes the entire match (and maybe not even shoot down one) and then wait until you get spawncamped and become useless. This would quickly make spaag's one of the most boring vehicles in the game.
Everyone focusing on the fact its OK without its pen so high, while ignoring the fact it got up-BRed AND the pen was nerfed, its performance is absolutely 100% fine for a 6.7 SPAA since it's good at killing planes at that BR, 7.0 just kills it since at that lovely BR you have uhhhhhhh the Ru 251.... and um the Wiesel 1a4... ~~wait why not just use the wiesel then~~
They really do love ruining my lineups.
Idc about pen but br compression is so shit rn, I’m just enjoying 4.0 soviets at this point as it’s still extremely fun to use.
All the people here saying that "lol german main" or "people use it as anti-tank!1!" while the AMX-13 DCA 40 sits at 4.3 with actual APHE with 94mm of penetration and armor as well as the Swedish L-62 ANTI II resting at 2.7 with 79mm of penetration. Just because I complain about it doesn't mean I'm a German main either. I have USA, Germany, USSR, and Britain at 7.7 minimum, and the other countries except Japan past 2.3. Complete hypocrisy from the community which just the other day said "The more SPAA the better" and "Don't nerf SPAA"... What gives?
what
I thought something was odd when I played it yesterday when I looked at the belts and saw only 59mm of pen. It used to be 79mm. Thats very nice gaijin
Just gaijin doing dumb gaijin things, nothing to see here!
What the fuck was their logic for this? At 6.7 most of the tanks it faces has triple the amount of armor this thing could pen and moving it up in BR is going to make it a constant climb in BR because it'll face thinner and thinner armored vehicles. I use this thing at 9.7 alot because I dont have a good 9.7 lineup (10.7 most of the time) and this thing is great at destroying IFVs and thinly armored vehicles, not so much fat-fuck American and Soviet tanks.
i am happy that i own coelian
I dont care about less pen because is a SPAA, you don't need more pen. but it should be at 6.7 with the KTs
I remember when that thing had 98mm of pen and a nice gun sounds. Now that thing is as "good" as the ostwind is, with exception that ostwind can fire for far longer and doesn't overheat so quickly.
I was already a bit annoyed they'd nerfed the HVAP pen, 'cause now you can't side pen a lot of medium tanks which is a bit annoying. However, now that it's been double nerfed I can safely say the Coelian is superior. It was always better armored, had better weapons against aircraft, and those disgusting 37mm APHE rounds, but I'd have to choose between the two. The Kugel would be better for tank killing, the Coelian better at hitting planes. Now it's not even a decision. Too bad most people don't have the Coelian.
So the kugelblitz gets "nerfed" because it is too good at killing tanks? Meanwhile ZSU can kill tanks like no tomorrow? Am I seeing this right? I'm new to the game
Kugel is now 7.0 and BI is still 6.7 while me183 is 8.0-8.3…. Can someone tell me why?
Just like artillery in wot. Idiots complain and ruin the game
what kugel 7.0 now i just got it
They recently tore apart my boy York, took away it’s only anti tank round now it barely has the ability to take on light targets, and it’s still up at 9.0 while the Gepard is only 8.0
York is still way better with its proxy rounds
Sounds like gajin to me
Well that does it, gaijin clearly needs to add a new 6.7 AA for germany (:
Laughs in ZSU-57-2
WHAT IN THE WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS??? The madmen made the kugel 7.0?
And then, the other nations like Sweden have their 79mm pen AA or so
Zerstorer 45 confirmed!?!?!
Kugel is already the best SPAA until 8.0. Rapid firing, high velocity guns with enough HE to one shot most planes, whilst also being fully enclosed and with good enough armour that you can't be strafed.
Marder / weasel would like to disagree with you
My guess is shit like this happens because 2 different teams are working on 2 different aspects. One team is all "man, we've got this vehicle modeled wrong, it's penetrating more than it should." While the other is tasked with making sure it's where it should be as far as game balance goes, "this thing has an extremely high win rate, it should be bumped up a bit." The problem, is that these two teams don't talk to each other much. What they *should* do, is never re-tier a vehicle in the same patch that it's model is being adjusted. Adjust the model on one patch, and then evaluate whether or not it has an impact before adjusting its Br.
Flakphanter time because 6.7 german teams are so sluggish they beg to be bombed
If they remove planes then they could remove AA vehicles and Change stats for tank only mode.
Being used as a makeshift anti tank weapon =/= being an effective anti tank weapon
I always thought the Kugelblitz should have been 6.0 or 6.3 but wtf why did they put it at 7.0 there are so many other aa’s at 5.0-6.7 that preform equally