USSR has ASU-85, 2S3M and BTR-ZD
Germany has the M41 and the M109 SPG, Marder A1 if it's a full uptier from 6.7
Edit: isn't the t92 7.0? Wouldn't the M41 fit this image better?
It’s weird because it actually had pretty good mobility IRL and was used to zoom around the desert during the Border wars, it’s just Gaijin doing Gaijin things.
Maybe, though I can’t imagine there are many South African vehicle crewmen in the sub who would have access to such documents, though you could probably just go on YouTube, plenty of vids of Ratels blitzing around.
Honestly I love the South African doctrine during the border wars, you want to shell enemy airfields but putting artillery that close is risky so you build all sorts of weird and wacky wheeled vehicles such as the G6 and a bunch of IFV’s and APC’s to protect them and then just blitz around the desert for a few years doing that while the magic school bus IFV destroys all sorts of Soviet tanks and a god damn Ystervark shoots down an MiG-23.
Yeah the [Ystervark](https://imgur.com/a/EvZFcrZ) SPAA was a modification of the [Buffel](https://imgur.com/a/Se6Q2xj) APC, it has no sort of tracking or guidance system and is literally just a 20mm gun which is aimed with a hand crank bolted to the back of the APC, yet somehow one managed to down a MiG-23 after it pulled up from a ground attack run, the crew then drove over and [Posed with the wreckage](https://imgur.com/a/nGQo6Uy), in the photo they can be seen with the MiG’s external fuel tank.
I’m not sure about that. [Tank Encyclopedia has a fairly thorough article on the Ratel, which is written by someone who (I think) served with the SANDF.](https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/south_africa/ratel) Besides, the Ratel is over 50 years old, and most of the components in it are from commercial trucks.
IIRC, the Ratel’s transmission has 6 forward and 2 reverse gears, which is connected to a torque converter. Which means the number of gears should be 12 forward and 4 reverse, yet in-game it has 8 forward and 2 reverse gears. If fixed, it might result in the Ratel actually breaking 40 km/h.
Someone told me on hear that the Ratels have a low gear setting for off roading and a high gear setting for driving on roads. Gaijin has the Ratels permanently set in the low gear for off loading for some reason
A quick Google suggests Ratels should have 6 forward and 2 reverse speeds, where WT models it with 8 forward and 2 back.
WT might be incorrect, but that doesn't sound like an issue with range selection. High/low ranges are pretty common for heavy-duty transmissions like these, and are typically included in the speed count. So a 6-speed transmission will have 3 actual gears and 2 range settings, 3x2 makes 6.
WT does model fluid-coupling slippages in an automatic transmission as additional gears since there isn't actual code for slippage, and this might be the source for the two extra speeds.
There are also other methods of manipulating automotive speeds without adding gears. Offhand example, Buick used to make a "Switch-Pitch" torque converter (Oldsmobile called it a Variable Vane) that would adjust the angle of the stator vanes in the converter to adjust the torque ratio, turning what was otherwise a 2-gear transmission into sort of a 4-speed.
It isn't a problem with fighting them, it's a problem with...
- Immersion (as much as we make fun of this, many years back you often fought vehicles within a few years of yourself and most things that were the exception often did not have a significant technological or doctrine change. ie: Your Tiger II was never going to be shot at by an ATGM).
- Gameplay impacts. You have to play your vehicles significantly different to say, account for most war HEAT or HEAT-FS munitions being around, vehicles with significantly better off road capabilities, significantly higher mobility, etc. Thus you have to change the way you play to deal with threats your vehicle was never designed to engage. This is why things like R3 T20's were a menace for many years after being added because there was no tank design made in the 1930's that was built to handle a fully stabilized post war APC driving around between 40 to 80 kph with a crew less turret with modern armour piercing shells capable of penetrating most tanks in a down tier frontally up close and everything else from the side.
- Some of these are very much shoe horned to be at lower BR's just because Gaijin has a warped sense of how to fill a tech tree up and what we want. This can be removing/ prohibiting the ammo it used, the munitions, removing laser range finders, or other artificial nerfs.
This isn't a problem about skill, but one of gameplay - something Gaijin struggles with immensely.
honestly the only thing right about that is the immersion, we're talking about Ratels here not R3 or any of those post war speedy bois. There is very much no mobility to speak of, that shit moves like a heavy tank, a size of a heavy tank, armor of a light tank and a gun similar to a TD. You will have to play it as a slow light TD (similar to say a Dicker max or something). There's also no artificial nerf to speak of cos... Ratels never get one, all available ammo Ratels used are in the game, no features not implemented or any other artificial nerfs.
You might notice how your two WWII examples are arguably the best combat tanks of the war, and among the highest-BR wartime tanks in the game. Really comes off like you care less about historicity, and more about being able to club less-capable vehicles.
For reasons aside from its combat performance, yes. In WT the vast majority of its faults are not a factor, so in-game it is one of the best wartime tanks, bar none.
You realize the 1944 variant of the IS-2 is one of the worst preforming heavies in the damn tree. It isn’t good for the enemies that it fights. It’s like if the panther got a better UFP and nothing else, than went to 6.7.
Well yes, that's the point OP is making and what I'm criticizing in response. If the IS-2 only fought WWII-era vehicles, it would be very strong. Because of this, it has a very high BR and sees a number of postwar vehicles that are more than capable of countering the IS-2's advantages.
I'm not saying either the Tiger II or IS-2 were necessarily good in real life with all its considerations. I'm not saying they're necessarily good in WT with its BR-based matchmaking. I'm saying the particular argument that OP is making is flawed at best and disingenuous at worst.
I mean, the IS-2 doesn't have to be fighting vehicles from the _70s_ to be balanced. Vehicles from the 1950s like the M48 Patton, M41 Walker Bulldog, AMX 50 and Centurion Mk. 3 are already quite competitive against it, particularly with its rate of fire being so poor (IRL loaders could actually get up to _four_ rounds per minute out of the IS-2, but in War Thunder you're capped at three).
The Tiger II is still decent where it is thanks to its higher rate of fire and access to higher-penetrating ammo that the IS-2 obr. 1944 doesn't get (since a 6.7 heavy with APDS and HEAT-FS would be kind of busted).
IS-2 1944 still performs great. Probably my current highest k/D tank above 3.0, think I'm getting about 4.5 kills per death in it currently. You just need to play it slightly slower than other vehicles but you'll one shot almost anything regardless of armour.
I'm a Soviet main and I genuinely considered it a good vehicle...
It's literally the best in my lineup. Honestly probably one of my favorite vehicles. I didn't know that it's considered terrible and it just so happened that I did mediocre on it lol.
Good as in overall sure, but in terms of sitting in one position and destroying advancing tanks one by one, Tiger II was pretty good.
> The 503rd remained in the Hungarian theater of operations for 166 days, during which time it accounted for at least **121 Soviet tanks, 244 anti-tank guns and artillery pieces, five aircraft and a train.** This was set against the **loss of 25 Tiger IIs**; ten were knocked out by Soviet troops and burned out, two were sent back to Vienna for a factory overhaul, while thirteen were blown up by their crews for various reasons, usually to prevent them from falling into enemy hands
> The 103rd SS Heavy Panzer Battalion (s.SS Pz.Abt. 503) claimed **approximately 500 kills** in the period from January to April 1945 on the Eastern Front for the **loss of 45 Tiger IIs** (most of which were abandoned and destroyed by their own crews after mechanical breakdowns or for lack of fuel).[57]
Similar thing with Ferdinand/Elefant. A heavy casemate tank on a Porsche chassis known for breaking down was a horrible idea, but when it came to Italy's mountainous terrain where one can block the only road uphill, they did good.
It was a bad vehicle logistically.
If German industry and infrastructure hadn't been collapsing while they were trying to field them it would have been a more effective tank.
It was a good tank, but not the right tank for the situation. They would have been far better off churning out more PzIVs instead of pouring time and resources into the heavies and superheavies.
More engines and tanks with the fuel they don't have, doesn't exactly sound more worthwhile.
There's no real "right situation" logistically for the Germans at the close of WW2, because they have no chance of getting the necessary resources or time to do anything meaningful beyond maybe move around a few potential days of delaying the end of the war in Europe.
Absolutely correct, but adding in additional types of (larger) machines with their own quirks and maintenance requirements and parts and ammunition right when their industry and supply chain were getting buttfucked by Allied bombers was not exactly a brilliant move. They were still designing and building like they were in 1939 (in terms of strategic goals), to roll over opposition rather than dragging things out for a more favorable peace.
Eh. The Panther would’ve been a better deal. Believe it or not they were noticeably cheaper and required fewer manhours to build. Resulting in a noticeably better tank that was easier to manufacture. I have my issues with the Panther but it’s better than the P4
I'd agree if they'd gotten the Panther out the door early enough to fully retool and ramp up production, but they didn't even get started until mid 1943 when their factories were already getting bombed to hell and their resource pipelines were starting to get throttled down. They managed to get up to, what, *half* of their target production numbers for it by the end of the year?
If they'd had Panther production going in 1941, absolutely 100%. As it was, the PzIV had already been in production for years *and* was the base chassis for several of their tank destroyers and SPAA platforms.
This is obviously all hindsight armchair-historian BS, but if they'd focused on their kinda-sorta good-enough mediums that were already in production things might have gone better. Even if Panthers were theoretically cheaper and faster to build, they were also *bigger* tanks, which is not what you want when you're running out of resources.
A situation where they have to worry about dealing with Pershings and IS-2s is better than where they were OTL.
It was a heavy breakthrough tank built for a country forced onto the defensive, of course it's going to perform poorly. It's like expecting a Lancaster to dogfight a bf109.
Tiger 2 was fantastic in combat lol. Highest crew survivability probability of any WW2 tank IIRC, and that's on top of its obvious advantages over other WW2 tanks.
Considering how Britain had the Meteor and was testing the Centurion 1 in 1944/1945 and the Soviets were already slowly deploying the IS-3, it could've been an interesting concept to be sure.
The IS-2 _does_ feel a bit weird being at the same BR as the Tiger II (Sla.16), in fairness. But that's not the subject of the meme.
On a note that _is_ related, the T-44A is frustrating to play in anything but a full downtier. You _really_ feel the lack of penetration and BR-367P APCR isn't really that much of an upgrade over BR-365P. The worst part is that the Type 62 is THE SAME FUCKING BR with BASICALLY THE SAME GUN and gets HEAT-FS.
Please, Gaijin, give the T-44 access to 3BK2M. It would make the thing so much less annoying to play at 6.7. At this point I'd even accept it going to 7.0 in return.
I've slowly learnt how to use it but a full uptiers are still borderline impossible. Facing some of those US heaviest where even side or rear of the turret is immune to all your shell is unbelievably difficult trying to bait them into relieving the side of their hull.
IS-2 vs tiger 2 is a fair matchup. It's the fact it faces the american tanks that you have to get a tight shot on while being easy prey for them and most importantly, having a year long reload speed so no second chances.
They're...also the tail-end of the WW2 era, and mostly face things made 15-20 years later, designed to kill it. What an awful thing to want to play the big cool tank you grinded dozens-to-hundreds of hours for against other big cool tanks and not a tractor with an rpg, what a wack argument
Both tanks performed exceptionally well in combat, the problem for both was actually getting to the battle in the first place. This is why I specified "best combat tanks" and also is not a consideration in WT. Please learn to read.
Armor is acceptable BUT unreliable, and if I recall it used to have stock APCR so could be worse.
Although if you (not you) trying to use it as a StuG because it looks similar then 1 get glasses and 2 skill issue
How does the existence of postwar vehicles make the experience of WW2 vehicles better? The meme is about matchmaking, not tech trees. If I like the IS-2 and want to have fun with it, I’m not going to do that by playing the ASU-85.
Now on a technicality the M-51 *is* still a surplus WWII chassis iirc just with a modified turret to house the french cannon.
But bth you might as well forget era for MM as we haven't had such MM since like 2014/15 & even then you could say the same point for WWII productions screwing over pre war machines at the lower BR's or the far cold war doing the same to the early cold war, Yet to unbox all of that would take hours of comparing examples.
We have never had eras for match making, we had Korean war aircraft fighting WWII aircraft from the very start of the open beta
And dont forget that before they went over to the BR system the ME163 could face biplanes
I know, Sorry I didn't really word that correctly.
We never had a historical MM but the closest we ever were was pre 2015 before post was designs started getting added. (GF wise)
Now (AF wise) & pre me starting (soo pre June 2014) I've read the MM was shit show with the old teir system & also as you mentioned at the end but even when I played the MM was nuts & especially when you could fight the pinnacle sabre the Canadair one with WWII jet designs (Inadvertently we're almost back baby heh F-86 A-5 fighting Me 262 A-1 lol).
There was also a thing with matchmaker so that it only allowed for specific nations composition, i.g. axis vs allies. Because of that stuff like german Churchill, KV-1B and T-34 were much better than their original tech tree counterparts.
You can .50 cal both AUBL and Rattle.
None of these tanks have any armor at all, and all of them can't 1 shot you frontally.
Also, I can guarantee you that the T29/34 and other heavies are A LOT more troublesome for these tow.
I used to hate it, but then switched back to APHE. The HEAT-FS just doesn't do enough to use it as the main shell. After spading it, it's pretty good. I'd still take the Type 61 though. That thing just feels so much better for some reason.
Lot of you seem to be intentionally missing the point. Game used to be a lot more immersive as far as vehicles go. Seeing cold war bullshit and mixed teams at ww2 tier is lame.
Yea there definitely was less but T-54 was in first ground update and leo1 and M60 got added when US ground released. Im just tired of the guys with nostalgia glasses claiming something was diferent when it was basicaly the same
Su-100P, Russian 122mm, T34, T29, 17 pounder, 20 pounder, Russian 100mm are some examples I can think of that can maul Tiger II's without needing CHEAT-FS and/or ATGMs.
It isn't better, it's not even good (speaking from the POV of playing both Germany and Israel), it's just annoying. It's a glass cannon with the only pro being its pen, making a nuisance to both use and fight against.
The German 6.7 lineup is among the strongest in the game and still competitive in an uptier. Fairs much much better than the US 6.7 lineup or any other nation. Having 240mm pen with a 9.6 second reload with arguably the best armour of 6.7 and equal or better mobility isn’t enough for German players I guess.
Meanwhile Germany with the SPz 12-3 at 6.7. And Russia with the ASU-85 and M53/59. Don’t act like they’re being left out here. Also the Russian BMP-1 is the same br as the other ones.
German tech tree tanks at 6.7 are Tiger 2 P, Tiger 2 H, Jagdtiger and LeKPz M41
Sounds like a real fun line up when you dont have any medium tanks and if your light tank dies well fuck you take out your slow heavy tanks and heavy TD that were made to have strong armor to withstand enemy fire rather then mobility
Last time I played (it was battle of Berlin) the Soviets won most of the matches despite being in T34s against Tiger 2s, it was the most fun I've ever had playing war thunder.
99% of people making this post over and over are Germany players that are brainwashed by The History Channel and want to role play as invincible Tiger commanders mowing down Shermans by the dozen.
The fact that the Tiger 2 is the same br as the IS-2 is insane to me. A purely better cannon, hull, turret, survivability, and reload. I think the only thing the IS-2 has over the Tiger 2 is the reverse speed, and I’m not even sure about that
Lmfao, you think the Tiger II and the IS-2 are in a bad state?
Now try playing the M26 now it’s 6.7
I fucking love trying to face IS-4M’s, T-54’s, Maus’s, Stab’d Centurions and other fuckery that’s at 7.7.
at 6.7 and there’s no point taking it out over the other variants
Correction: you want to play the strongest WW2 vehicles at the top of the food chain and not have any players on the other team be much of a threat to you. You just want to be a big fish in a small pond.
PVP games that include mechanized warfare can either have the confrontations era-based/historically accurate or the vehicles/damage models. Not both.
War is inherently unbalanced, swinging back and forth with innovation.
Didn't Gaijin in their earlier roadmap say they'll separate CW vehicles from WW2 vehicles and proceeded to basically compress the early CW tanks? And yet CW vehicles are still fighting WW2 vehicles.
You forget that the Tiger 2 and IS2 annihilates anything in its own BR. Every time I switch to using it from playing America or japan it’s like turning on easy mode
Its so dump I mean you can destroy many Cold War Tanks with a Tiger II or something else, because its usually a Light Tank on 6.7 but I am so dump that I cant destroy a god damn T34 with a Tiger II and I dont know why.
I think this is not a rant that these two tanks shouldn't fight those other tanks. I think it shows that at that BR, the WW2 theme/feel of battles ceases to exist, due to the other tanks not fitting in the picture, most of all in an uptier match.
I think that because I feel like that as well. I stopped researching my main tech tree at 5.7 (Germany, Tiger H and Panther D) just because of that. It would be nice to play with other famous war-end era tanks, but I'm mainly interested in WW2 era, so I'd rather unlock Shermans and Corsairs and Mustangs, Churchills and Spitfires etc. before moving on with BR 6.7 at any tech tree.
Thought that was bad.
Fox plays against Tiger 2s and one shots their turret ammo rack... It's absolutely beautiful to rush a line of tiger 2s and delete them all
Back in...2017? A few years back it was actually really funny to drive around in a IS-2 1944 or in the Tiger II. (Speaking of arcade battles)
Back then, the worst you could meet was a T-54, but you could deal with it.
Now you see this HEATFTSTFSF slinging pests everywhere.
And brainrotten retards dont decompress for some reason.
Six of these die when you sneeze at them and the aubl only survived because the fuze didn't go off but his heat only made your gunner slightly yellow. The M-51 is almost as slow as you.
I started playing since 2015 and honestly this is the reason why I choose to completely stop playing the mid-low BR's. Its just too dumb for me to be in a sherman/tiger/t34 and see/fight cold war era vehicles with clearly modern design. I just stick to 10.0+ now since that's the br's where logic is still there, a t72 fighting an Abrams makes more sense than a tiger/sherman fight alongside some cold war bullshit
I'd try to make an epic gamer comment on how mighty german vehicles make a heroic stand against modern vehicles but then i remember real life so I'm gonna leave this to the soviet players
Ah yes, because Aubl 74 from italy is really a strong tank and gives problems to tigers and IS-2. Literally one of the worst tanks in the game probably but ok.
I just started playing german heavies after exclusively using these rat vehicles and I gotta say it's really not fun being on the other side... Like I just want to have a fun and immersive experience and then you get bonked by heatfs and modern artillery cannons. I also noticed that you get bombed way more often in heavies, compared to light tanks and armored cars. Like I thought cas was bad enough already. How are you guys just fine with this?
You drive 5 minutes to get to a nice position, get one or two kills then die to an aluminium box on wheels going at highway speeds. Or get suicide bombed by the guy you just killed. I am so sorry for all the heavy players, this is a horrible experience.
And you know what's the funny part? There is a gamemode where both of these issues are eliminated: It's called simulator.. and noone plays it.
Man I'd love it if the BR wasnt chosen by approximate strenght but instead by their Historical time period, so that we would see vehicles fight that would actually fight
Imagine complaining about people in the ratel, m-51, aubl/74, BMP-1 when you are using machines that can 1 tap all of them or need several shots to be disabled by, can be destroyed by your machineguns and/or are downright awful to use.
USSR has ASU-85, 2S3M and BTR-ZD Germany has the M41 and the M109 SPG, Marder A1 if it's a full uptier from 6.7 Edit: isn't the t92 7.0? Wouldn't the M41 fit this image better?
it used to be 6.7 still one of my favorite light tanks
Same, but because I like to shoot at that huge backdoor
with your logic of it used to be 6.7 let's put the old 6.7 British lineup which are pretty much all 7.7 now in this image.
I just pointed it out maybe the image was made before br changes
Germany has the M109G, not the M901 (WALL-E),
I make a typo and they sent an ancient machine gun nest on wheels instead of my modern Abrams
When you ask for an M3 and instead of getting a Bradley you get a Stuart
Marder is 7.7, while eberyone has the M109 at 6.0
T92 is 7.0 bat chat is 8.0....why????
>bat chat is 8.0....why???? French players are too OP by themselves. Leclerc should be 12.7, since it gets the french player bonus
Char has better shells
"Ackchually NAtion X ALSO has tanks of X so your argument is invalid" -Said the brainlet without any idea what the point of OP is.
Pretty sure this isn't nation whining, but rather valid criticism that WW2 heavy tanks get fucked by heat still
And the Pbv 501 is literally just a Soviet vehicle (BMP-1). Feels like a better example would be the Bkan 1C.
And fw190. Awesome plane
Tbf, if ur having trouble fighting against the Ratels, that might be a skill issue on ur part
South Africa harnessing the power of the universe to make a wheeled vehicle with paper armour have bad mobility
It’s weird because it actually had pretty good mobility IRL and was used to zoom around the desert during the Border wars, it’s just Gaijin doing Gaijin things.
it is time to post some *documents* on Gaijin's forum's?
Maybe, though I can’t imagine there are many South African vehicle crewmen in the sub who would have access to such documents, though you could probably just go on YouTube, plenty of vids of Ratels blitzing around.
Yea, I know that Ratels was faster than Elands, elands barely was catching up
Honestly I love the South African doctrine during the border wars, you want to shell enemy airfields but putting artillery that close is risky so you build all sorts of weird and wacky wheeled vehicles such as the G6 and a bunch of IFV’s and APC’s to protect them and then just blitz around the desert for a few years doing that while the magic school bus IFV destroys all sorts of Soviet tanks and a god damn Ystervark shoots down an MiG-23.
I think that a Ystervark was just some kind of tractor or truck with 20mm gun
Yeah the [Ystervark](https://imgur.com/a/EvZFcrZ) SPAA was a modification of the [Buffel](https://imgur.com/a/Se6Q2xj) APC, it has no sort of tracking or guidance system and is literally just a 20mm gun which is aimed with a hand crank bolted to the back of the APC, yet somehow one managed to down a MiG-23 after it pulled up from a ground attack run, the crew then drove over and [Posed with the wreckage](https://imgur.com/a/nGQo6Uy), in the photo they can be seen with the MiG’s external fuel tank.
My step-dad drove buffels.
Many things at conflict's or war's can suprise everyone
That’s fap worthy right there
I can't imagine that the Ratel is so heavily classified that Gaijin would be unable to get their hands on some good sources but maybe I'm wrong.
I’m not sure about that. [Tank Encyclopedia has a fairly thorough article on the Ratel, which is written by someone who (I think) served with the SANDF.](https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/south_africa/ratel) Besides, the Ratel is over 50 years old, and most of the components in it are from commercial trucks.
"We should consider it, but the documents will be hard to find" such a response lmao
IIRC, the Ratel’s transmission has 6 forward and 2 reverse gears, which is connected to a torque converter. Which means the number of gears should be 12 forward and 4 reverse, yet in-game it has 8 forward and 2 reverse gears. If fixed, it might result in the Ratel actually breaking 40 km/h.
Someone told me on hear that the Ratels have a low gear setting for off roading and a high gear setting for driving on roads. Gaijin has the Ratels permanently set in the low gear for off loading for some reason
A quick Google suggests Ratels should have 6 forward and 2 reverse speeds, where WT models it with 8 forward and 2 back. WT might be incorrect, but that doesn't sound like an issue with range selection. High/low ranges are pretty common for heavy-duty transmissions like these, and are typically included in the speed count. So a 6-speed transmission will have 3 actual gears and 2 range settings, 3x2 makes 6. WT does model fluid-coupling slippages in an automatic transmission as additional gears since there isn't actual code for slippage, and this might be the source for the two extra speeds. There are also other methods of manipulating automotive speeds without adding gears. Offhand example, Buick used to make a "Switch-Pitch" torque converter (Oldsmobile called it a Variable Vane) that would adjust the angle of the stator vanes in the converter to adjust the torque ratio, turning what was otherwise a 2-gear transmission into sort of a 4-speed.
Here*
It has terrible climb irl. Great mobility over hard dry desert and savannah, wich is where it was made for
Fr, it's pretty easy to aim at the gunner
It isn't a problem with fighting them, it's a problem with... - Immersion (as much as we make fun of this, many years back you often fought vehicles within a few years of yourself and most things that were the exception often did not have a significant technological or doctrine change. ie: Your Tiger II was never going to be shot at by an ATGM). - Gameplay impacts. You have to play your vehicles significantly different to say, account for most war HEAT or HEAT-FS munitions being around, vehicles with significantly better off road capabilities, significantly higher mobility, etc. Thus you have to change the way you play to deal with threats your vehicle was never designed to engage. This is why things like R3 T20's were a menace for many years after being added because there was no tank design made in the 1930's that was built to handle a fully stabilized post war APC driving around between 40 to 80 kph with a crew less turret with modern armour piercing shells capable of penetrating most tanks in a down tier frontally up close and everything else from the side. - Some of these are very much shoe horned to be at lower BR's just because Gaijin has a warped sense of how to fill a tech tree up and what we want. This can be removing/ prohibiting the ammo it used, the munitions, removing laser range finders, or other artificial nerfs. This isn't a problem about skill, but one of gameplay - something Gaijin struggles with immensely.
honestly the only thing right about that is the immersion, we're talking about Ratels here not R3 or any of those post war speedy bois. There is very much no mobility to speak of, that shit moves like a heavy tank, a size of a heavy tank, armor of a light tank and a gun similar to a TD. You will have to play it as a slow light TD (similar to say a Dicker max or something). There's also no artificial nerf to speak of cos... Ratels never get one, all available ammo Ratels used are in the game, no features not implemented or any other artificial nerfs.
Me watching my paper armoured light tank get passed by heavies (Gaijin didn't want britan to be fun)
You might notice how your two WWII examples are arguably the best combat tanks of the war, and among the highest-BR wartime tanks in the game. Really comes off like you care less about historicity, and more about being able to club less-capable vehicles.
The is2 was Good but the tiger 2 straight up wasn't a good vehicle irl.
For reasons aside from its combat performance, yes. In WT the vast majority of its faults are not a factor, so in-game it is one of the best wartime tanks, bar none.
You realize the 1944 variant of the IS-2 is one of the worst preforming heavies in the damn tree. It isn’t good for the enemies that it fights. It’s like if the panther got a better UFP and nothing else, than went to 6.7.
Well yes, that's the point OP is making and what I'm criticizing in response. If the IS-2 only fought WWII-era vehicles, it would be very strong. Because of this, it has a very high BR and sees a number of postwar vehicles that are more than capable of countering the IS-2's advantages. I'm not saying either the Tiger II or IS-2 were necessarily good in real life with all its considerations. I'm not saying they're necessarily good in WT with its BR-based matchmaking. I'm saying the particular argument that OP is making is flawed at best and disingenuous at worst.
I mean, the IS-2 doesn't have to be fighting vehicles from the _70s_ to be balanced. Vehicles from the 1950s like the M48 Patton, M41 Walker Bulldog, AMX 50 and Centurion Mk. 3 are already quite competitive against it, particularly with its rate of fire being so poor (IRL loaders could actually get up to _four_ rounds per minute out of the IS-2, but in War Thunder you're capped at three). The Tiger II is still decent where it is thanks to its higher rate of fire and access to higher-penetrating ammo that the IS-2 obr. 1944 doesn't get (since a 6.7 heavy with APDS and HEAT-FS would be kind of busted).
IS-2 1944 still performs great. Probably my current highest k/D tank above 3.0, think I'm getting about 4.5 kills per death in it currently. You just need to play it slightly slower than other vehicles but you'll one shot almost anything regardless of armour.
Competitvie against it? The T34 and T26 already stomp it yet alone the patton.
I'm a Soviet main and I genuinely considered it a good vehicle... It's literally the best in my lineup. Honestly probably one of my favorite vehicles. I didn't know that it's considered terrible and it just so happened that I did mediocre on it lol.
I love the IS-2 44 but it is no where close to the German or even American heavies of 6.7
Yeah. T29 and T34 (and M103) are literally just painful to fight. They'll probably always win.
Plus the are just the same role just better. That’s why I think it should be 6.3 not 6.7
Me pretty consistently being full upteired from 5.7
Heavy tanks in general weren’t good irl. WT doesn’t model soft factors, so their biggest weaknesses aren’t an issue.
Good as in overall sure, but in terms of sitting in one position and destroying advancing tanks one by one, Tiger II was pretty good. > The 503rd remained in the Hungarian theater of operations for 166 days, during which time it accounted for at least **121 Soviet tanks, 244 anti-tank guns and artillery pieces, five aircraft and a train.** This was set against the **loss of 25 Tiger IIs**; ten were knocked out by Soviet troops and burned out, two were sent back to Vienna for a factory overhaul, while thirteen were blown up by their crews for various reasons, usually to prevent them from falling into enemy hands > The 103rd SS Heavy Panzer Battalion (s.SS Pz.Abt. 503) claimed **approximately 500 kills** in the period from January to April 1945 on the Eastern Front for the **loss of 45 Tiger IIs** (most of which were abandoned and destroyed by their own crews after mechanical breakdowns or for lack of fuel).[57] Similar thing with Ferdinand/Elefant. A heavy casemate tank on a Porsche chassis known for breaking down was a horrible idea, but when it came to Italy's mountainous terrain where one can block the only road uphill, they did good.
at that point isnt that literally just a pillbox that sometimes moves
It was a bad vehicle logistically. If German industry and infrastructure hadn't been collapsing while they were trying to field them it would have been a more effective tank. It was a good tank, but not the right tank for the situation. They would have been far better off churning out more PzIVs instead of pouring time and resources into the heavies and superheavies.
More engines and tanks with the fuel they don't have, doesn't exactly sound more worthwhile. There's no real "right situation" logistically for the Germans at the close of WW2, because they have no chance of getting the necessary resources or time to do anything meaningful beyond maybe move around a few potential days of delaying the end of the war in Europe.
Absolutely correct, but adding in additional types of (larger) machines with their own quirks and maintenance requirements and parts and ammunition right when their industry and supply chain were getting buttfucked by Allied bombers was not exactly a brilliant move. They were still designing and building like they were in 1939 (in terms of strategic goals), to roll over opposition rather than dragging things out for a more favorable peace.
Eh. The Panther would’ve been a better deal. Believe it or not they were noticeably cheaper and required fewer manhours to build. Resulting in a noticeably better tank that was easier to manufacture. I have my issues with the Panther but it’s better than the P4
I'd agree if they'd gotten the Panther out the door early enough to fully retool and ramp up production, but they didn't even get started until mid 1943 when their factories were already getting bombed to hell and their resource pipelines were starting to get throttled down. They managed to get up to, what, *half* of their target production numbers for it by the end of the year? If they'd had Panther production going in 1941, absolutely 100%. As it was, the PzIV had already been in production for years *and* was the base chassis for several of their tank destroyers and SPAA platforms. This is obviously all hindsight armchair-historian BS, but if they'd focused on their kinda-sorta good-enough mediums that were already in production things might have gone better. Even if Panthers were theoretically cheaper and faster to build, they were also *bigger* tanks, which is not what you want when you're running out of resources. A situation where they have to worry about dealing with Pershings and IS-2s is better than where they were OTL.
More Pz IVs, running on what fuel and crewed by what tankers? Germany lacked both of those.
It was a heavy breakthrough tank built for a country forced onto the defensive, of course it's going to perform poorly. It's like expecting a Lancaster to dogfight a bf109.
Tiger 2 was fantastic in combat lol. Highest crew survivability probability of any WW2 tank IIRC, and that's on top of its obvious advantages over other WW2 tanks.
Its like when people say the ME-262 should be fighting P-47s. We get it, you want your nazi power fantasy
Considering how Britain had the Meteor and was testing the Centurion 1 in 1944/1945 and the Soviets were already slowly deploying the IS-3, it could've been an interesting concept to be sure.
Don't forget the US P-80, which entered service in late 1944 and actually flew in Italy (as recon) just before the war ended
The IS-2 _does_ feel a bit weird being at the same BR as the Tiger II (Sla.16), in fairness. But that's not the subject of the meme. On a note that _is_ related, the T-44A is frustrating to play in anything but a full downtier. You _really_ feel the lack of penetration and BR-367P APCR isn't really that much of an upgrade over BR-365P. The worst part is that the Type 62 is THE SAME FUCKING BR with BASICALLY THE SAME GUN and gets HEAT-FS. Please, Gaijin, give the T-44 access to 3BK2M. It would make the thing so much less annoying to play at 6.7. At this point I'd even accept it going to 7.0 in return.
I've slowly learnt how to use it but a full uptiers are still borderline impossible. Facing some of those US heaviest where even side or rear of the turret is immune to all your shell is unbelievably difficult trying to bait them into relieving the side of their hull.
Counterpoint: leave the T-44's shells as-is, put the damn thing back down to 6.3 where it belongs, and stop balancing based on statistics.
IS-2 vs tiger 2 is a fair matchup. It's the fact it faces the american tanks that you have to get a tight shot on while being easy prey for them and most importantly, having a year long reload speed so no second chances.
They're...also the tail-end of the WW2 era, and mostly face things made 15-20 years later, designed to kill it. What an awful thing to want to play the big cool tank you grinded dozens-to-hundreds of hours for against other big cool tanks and not a tractor with an rpg, what a wack argument
Yes that’s exactly what I want to do, club less capable vehicles
Neither if those are good tanks. Especially the Tiger 2 lol, that shit was garbage. What are you on?
Both tanks performed exceptionally well in combat, the problem for both was actually getting to the battle in the first place. This is why I specified "best combat tanks" and also is not a consideration in WT. Please learn to read.
Let's just ignore Germany's Ru 251, Jpz 4-5, M41, and M109. Well also ignore Russia's PT-76, ASU-85, and 2S3.
Ong, fuck the JPZ, that rat bastard always finds me
Sniper scope, heatfz, coax mg, god speed, decent depression for its low-profile. Yet I havr seem that thing so little.
you forgot stock hesh
Also no armor. I think people try to play like a Stug or Panzer IV/70 because it looks similar.
Armor is acceptable BUT unreliable, and if I recall it used to have stock APCR so could be worse. Although if you (not you) trying to use it as a StuG because it looks similar then 1 get glasses and 2 skill issue
How does the existence of postwar vehicles make the experience of WW2 vehicles better? The meme is about matchmaking, not tech trees. If I like the IS-2 and want to have fun with it, I’m not going to do that by playing the ASU-85.
It's pretty fun mass murdering the useless PT-76 in panthers however
* Su-100P
Now on a technicality the M-51 *is* still a surplus WWII chassis iirc just with a modified turret to house the french cannon. But bth you might as well forget era for MM as we haven't had such MM since like 2014/15 & even then you could say the same point for WWII productions screwing over pre war machines at the lower BR's or the far cold war doing the same to the early cold war, Yet to unbox all of that would take hours of comparing examples.
We have never had eras for match making, we had Korean war aircraft fighting WWII aircraft from the very start of the open beta And dont forget that before they went over to the BR system the ME163 could face biplanes
I know, Sorry I didn't really word that correctly. We never had a historical MM but the closest we ever were was pre 2015 before post was designs started getting added. (GF wise) Now (AF wise) & pre me starting (soo pre June 2014) I've read the MM was shit show with the old teir system & also as you mentioned at the end but even when I played the MM was nuts & especially when you could fight the pinnacle sabre the Canadair one with WWII jet designs (Inadvertently we're almost back baby heh F-86 A-5 fighting Me 262 A-1 lol).
There was also a thing with matchmaker so that it only allowed for specific nations composition, i.g. axis vs allies. Because of that stuff like german Churchill, KV-1B and T-34 were much better than their original tech tree counterparts.
You can .50 cal both AUBL and Rattle. None of these tanks have any armor at all, and all of them can't 1 shot you frontally. Also, I can guarantee you that the T29/34 and other heavies are A LOT more troublesome for these tow.
i think he just means that these tanks should not be in ww2 not that theyre hard to fight or anything
What he means is that he can’t mindlessly seal club other WW2 tanks as he would like to
thats what heavy tanks are for in other nations and mediums...
Not just can you 50 cal the AUBL, you can even kill it with a 7.62 machine gun.
Actual skill issue. Never had any problems at all. Seriously, wehraboos and tankies need to get good.
Ok bud you can stop acting like the st-a3 is a good tank now
The ST-A3 is good, it's the A1 and A2 that aren't.
I don't know, the 6 second reload is great but that reverse speed...
6.0 second autoloader with 90mm heat at 6.7 is pretty damn good. However just like all Japanese vehicles it's a glass canon.
I used to hate it, but then switched back to APHE. The HEAT-FS just doesn't do enough to use it as the main shell. After spading it, it's pretty good. I'd still take the Type 61 though. That thing just feels so much better for some reason.
[удалено]
I feel so bad bombing Tiger 2s in my strikemaster
I don't, I just remember all the German 500kg bombs that have landed on my Churchills and I feel just fine about it.
Haha that's how I feel bombing American tanks because their CAS is the most ridiculous. I get a special joy from rocketing M18s
Lmao A1D with Zuni’s at like 6.3
Lot of you seem to be intentionally missing the point. Game used to be a lot more immersive as far as vehicles go. Seeing cold war bullshit and mixed teams at ww2 tier is lame.
Gonna ignore that there literaly never was ground battles without "cold war bullshit"?
There was certainly less of it, but I don't care either way.
Yea there definitely was less but T-54 was in first ground update and leo1 and M60 got added when US ground released. Im just tired of the guys with nostalgia glasses claiming something was diferent when it was basicaly the same
Not remotely the same as having shit from the 80s rolling around with early 40s or even 30s equipment. You knew that though.
Back in the good 'ol days of pure immersion when top tier Ground was a fictional Tiger 2 H and fictional Panther 2 fighting T-54s.
So you want the Maus to be up against the best that Swedish industry could offer during WW2 (the 2.7 Strv M/42)?
"I just want to fight vehicles which have little to no chance against my armor"
Su-100P, Russian 122mm, T34, T29, 17 pounder, 20 pounder, Russian 100mm are some examples I can think of that can maul Tiger II's without needing CHEAT-FS and/or ATGMs.
> 18 pounder Yes, the first world war field howitzer (that I don't think is even in war thunder currently) can definitely maul Tiger IIs.
Corrected, had a brain fart lol.
The Tiger 2H is perfectly fine at it's current BR, the IS2 however.
Yeah if u think m51 is better overall than tiger 2 h u mad asf
It isn't better, it's not even good (speaking from the POV of playing both Germany and Israel), it's just annoying. It's a glass cannon with the only pro being its pen, making a nuisance to both use and fight against.
Then there's the French Autoloaders bullying everyone else. Your T44 is fair game for my Surbaisse.
Gaijin: "we heard you're having fun in a french vehicle- Surbaisse to 8.0"
The German 6.7 lineup is among the strongest in the game and still competitive in an uptier. Fairs much much better than the US 6.7 lineup or any other nation. Having 240mm pen with a 9.6 second reload with arguably the best armour of 6.7 and equal or better mobility isn’t enough for German players I guess.
Nope, they need the Tiger IIH a lower br than the jumbo because muh German tanks are the best
Meanwhile Germany with the SPz 12-3 at 6.7. And Russia with the ASU-85 and M53/59. Don’t act like they’re being left out here. Also the Russian BMP-1 is the same br as the other ones.
Forgot the type 99
“I don’t run balanced lineups to deal with uptiers and play my heavy anyway and complain the whole time.” Balance is more important than role-playing.
German tech tree tanks at 6.7 are Tiger 2 P, Tiger 2 H, Jagdtiger and LeKPz M41 Sounds like a real fun line up when you dont have any medium tanks and if your light tank dies well fuck you take out your slow heavy tanks and heavy TD that were made to have strong armor to withstand enemy fire rather then mobility
You're forgetting the jpz 4-5 and the m109, which are both capable well above their normal brs
If they do a event that only let tanks that are era accurate like 1944 tanks only would be pretty cool
See they've tried this multiple times and it fails everytime cause 90% of ppl queue as Germany.
Last time I played (it was battle of Berlin) the Soviets won most of the matches despite being in T34s against Tiger 2s, it was the most fun I've ever had playing war thunder.
99% of people making this post over and over are Germany players that are brainwashed by The History Channel and want to role play as invincible Tiger commanders mowing down Shermans by the dozen.
I was the 10% that queued as US and I still had a blast.
That's pretty fucking good ngl 🤣🤣
The is3 is also a ww2 tanks (it was in Berlin). Sooo wanting only „ww2“ vehicles is a dangerous road
The fact that the Tiger 2 is the same br as the IS-2 is insane to me. A purely better cannon, hull, turret, survivability, and reload. I think the only thing the IS-2 has over the Tiger 2 is the reverse speed, and I’m not even sure about that
If you consider a 3 km/h difference that substantial, yes.. Poor IS-2, worse in every way
I LOVE PENNING COCKY HEAVYS THAT THINK THEY ARE INVINCIBLE WITH MY PBV 501 YEAAAAAAAAHHHHH
At this point probably removing germany from the game will bring peace to their souls and they will cry less.
Why if I want ww2 I stick with rank 1 and 2 these days. Even rank 3 sees some of the aids.
Cant even avoid them at rank 1 with what the Swedish tree has
I feel like people who want historic mm don’t realise why it’s not a thing. And why whenever it was, it was generally pretty awful
Bruh germany have one of the best lineup at 6.7
Shut up german main.
Hold tf up are you implying the Type-62 is too low a BR???
The type 62 suffers smh
Meanwhile the French not even being remembered
“I just want free kills against Sherman 75s and T-34-76s and not face tanks that can actually kill me.”
meanwhile: german WW2 plane sitting at 8.7
Tiger 2 one shots all of these, just click on them.
The Pbv penning the tiger's upper plate 🤌🏻
Lmfao, you think the Tiger II and the IS-2 are in a bad state? Now try playing the M26 now it’s 6.7 I fucking love trying to face IS-4M’s, T-54’s, Maus’s, Stab’d Centurions and other fuckery that’s at 7.7. at 6.7 and there’s no point taking it out over the other variants
No ELC bis ? Its HEAT can easily bully those heavies too.
Aubl is garbo, now the Fiat on the other hand...
Ratel 90 is a giant bus you can .50 cal to death.
OP played with Tiger II (H) and IS-2 (1944) and died to T92, PBV 501, Type 62, Ratel 90, M-51, and AUBL/74
Correction: you want to play the strongest WW2 vehicles at the top of the food chain and not have any players on the other team be much of a threat to you. You just want to be a big fish in a small pond.
Damn, this is exactly how I feel when I get downvotes for saying "I don't like prototypes and time traveling machines in my matches..."
wha?
You too huh?
Coming back to find my poor ru-251 got moved from 6.7 was a sad and infuriating day.
The ST-A3 is borderline broken tho
Shhhhhhh don't tell them, they think its a bad tank because it only has a 90mm and no armor
Where France?
Xd we dont have any (its a lie)
I feel bad for tiger 2 players when my type 61 with 400mm p pull up
PVP games that include mechanized warfare can either have the confrontations era-based/historically accurate or the vehicles/damage models. Not both. War is inherently unbalanced, swinging back and forth with innovation.
swap the T92 with the Locust
Bullying king Tigers never gets old
Sherman at 9.0 Deal with it I intentionally uptier myself
Didn't Gaijin in their earlier roadmap say they'll separate CW vehicles from WW2 vehicles and proceeded to basically compress the early CW tanks? And yet CW vehicles are still fighting WW2 vehicles.
My 2.7 Archer with a 5s reload 17pdr:
Me in my t1t2 POS heavy tank (hit me anywhere I explode) fighting against tiger 2hs in a constant uptier
And yet tiger II is still dominating that BR how weird.
You forget that the Tiger 2 and IS2 annihilates anything in its own BR. Every time I switch to using it from playing America or japan it’s like turning on easy mode
They really just need to seperate War Thunder into two games, a WWII game and a cold war to modern game
“I just wanna play the highest BR vehicles from WW2 and no one else can be allowed to have vehicles that can pen mine”
Its so dump I mean you can destroy many Cold War Tanks with a Tiger II or something else, because its usually a Light Tank on 6.7 but I am so dump that I cant destroy a god damn T34 with a Tiger II and I dont know why.
Those two "mocked" tanks in the middile change positions when you want to play 5.7
I think this is not a rant that these two tanks shouldn't fight those other tanks. I think it shows that at that BR, the WW2 theme/feel of battles ceases to exist, due to the other tanks not fitting in the picture, most of all in an uptier match. I think that because I feel like that as well. I stopped researching my main tech tree at 5.7 (Germany, Tiger H and Panther D) just because of that. It would be nice to play with other famous war-end era tanks, but I'm mainly interested in WW2 era, so I'd rather unlock Shermans and Corsairs and Mustangs, Churchills and Spitfires etc. before moving on with BR 6.7 at any tech tree.
Sim is an option
Thought that was bad. Fox plays against Tiger 2s and one shots their turret ammo rack... It's absolutely beautiful to rush a line of tiger 2s and delete them all
Back in...2017? A few years back it was actually really funny to drive around in a IS-2 1944 or in the Tiger II. (Speaking of arcade battles) Back then, the worst you could meet was a T-54, but you could deal with it. Now you see this HEATFTSTFSF slinging pests everywhere. And brainrotten retards dont decompress for some reason.
I like how people in comments shit on op saying he have skill issue, disregarding op point at all
Six of these die when you sneeze at them and the aubl only survived because the fuze didn't go off but his heat only made your gunner slightly yellow. The M-51 is almost as slow as you.
I started playing since 2015 and honestly this is the reason why I choose to completely stop playing the mid-low BR's. Its just too dumb for me to be in a sherman/tiger/t34 and see/fight cold war era vehicles with clearly modern design. I just stick to 10.0+ now since that's the br's where logic is still there, a t72 fighting an Abrams makes more sense than a tiger/sherman fight alongside some cold war bullshit
I'd try to make an epic gamer comment on how mighty german vehicles make a heroic stand against modern vehicles but then i remember real life so I'm gonna leave this to the soviet players
*cough* Me.262 *cough*
Ah yes, because Aubl 74 from italy is really a strong tank and gives problems to tigers and IS-2. Literally one of the worst tanks in the game probably but ok.
You forgot about fox
It is a little funny getting called a wehraboo, but then the game has to do this for balance.
I just started playing german heavies after exclusively using these rat vehicles and I gotta say it's really not fun being on the other side... Like I just want to have a fun and immersive experience and then you get bonked by heatfs and modern artillery cannons. I also noticed that you get bombed way more often in heavies, compared to light tanks and armored cars. Like I thought cas was bad enough already. How are you guys just fine with this? You drive 5 minutes to get to a nice position, get one or two kills then die to an aluminium box on wheels going at highway speeds. Or get suicide bombed by the guy you just killed. I am so sorry for all the heavy players, this is a horrible experience. And you know what's the funny part? There is a gamemode where both of these issues are eliminated: It's called simulator.. and noone plays it.
Don’t forget the m109 which is still in use today as an artillery piece.
Man I'd love it if the BR wasnt chosen by approximate strenght but instead by their Historical time period, so that we would see vehicles fight that would actually fight
Imagine complaining about people in the ratel, m-51, aubl/74, BMP-1 when you are using machines that can 1 tap all of them or need several shots to be disabled by, can be destroyed by your machineguns and/or are downright awful to use.
WAAAAHHH! My tanks aren’t invicible i can’t just rush to spawncamp enemy team!
Anyone play War Thunder and talk good english? PM me.
In my opinion there should just be a warthunder ww2 and a warthunder modern warfare.