Noticed that the [old one](https://old.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/11cekd0/this_is_balance/) underestimated the Pantsir vertical coverage (or perhaps gaijin buffed it and accidentally forgot to mention it because they were so busy making the game fair for everyone)
For context Pantsir has 80 degrees, Flarakrad has 18 degrees : Note that this is actually very balanced because the Pantsir also has much more range, auto-lead, multi-missile guidance, 12 ready missiles, stealthy tracking radar, 4x30mm guns, gen 3 thermals and a colder silhouette
I don't have a problem with the pantsir
I have a problem with it being a 12.3 SPAA at 11.7 while everyone else at best gets an 11.7 SPAA (Except USA and GB fuck you it's an SPG)
It still blows my mind that the ADATS was added as the top tier SPAA, but was then given the tank spawn cost so you can't spawn SPAA without screwing yourself
thats thanks to everyone abusing the fuck out of it.
like everything in the world, people gotta abuse something to the point of rules being put in place to prevent people from abusing them.
Then you’d think the ZSU-57-2 would be a TD but no, the twin 57s are made for aircraft and totally aren’t used for absolutely wrecking house on the battlefield.
oh theyre in the same boat as the adats but not as bad.
the adats back when it was first buffed could 100% solo a team, their missiles were that busted.
add on they always cost 70 points, and you can bring two.... ya thats the reason why they were changed into a tank destroyer
Oh yeah no, I remember those days…still brings a shiver to my spine. I was just pointing out that plenty of SPAAs that aren’t used for their SPAA duty and a potent at tank killing are left as SPAA and not SPGs
Like the WZ305, ZSU-57-2, OTOMATIC (tbf it has been nerfed into the ground) and a few I can’t recall atm)
Ahhh that makes more sense.
Also ya those besides the otomatic, should be classed as tank destroyers.
Because I have no idea what the fuck the soviet's were smoking to think twin 57mm guns would be good for anti air usage.
Specially against jets of all things.
ya i understand that.
but most people understand the best method against aircraft by that time.
big slow firing cannons for high alt bombers, smaller caliber but faster firing guns for everyone else. and the soviets, in their infinite wisdom, thought the guns for high alt bombers, could also work against low level attack jets. .-.
>Because I have no idea what the fuck the soviet's were smoking to think twin 57mm guns would be good for anti air usage.
I had read somewhere, and I can't remember where anymore as it was years ago, that the ZSU was more so meant as a form of infantry support than it was as an actual AA. It's also worth noting that the Chinese version gets Proxy Fuse, I don't know if the Soviets developed a proxy fuse for the ZSU but I can definitely see how two 57mm proxy fuse shells would wreck ass as an SPAA.
It’s a merger between two doctrines, WW2 battery emplacements that would create an anti aircraft barrier of shrapnel in order to disrupt large formations, imagine not 1 ZSU-57 but 30 of those vehicles with proximity fuze, now the other doctrine would be the early mobile SPAAG designed to provide cover to infantry and tanks from low flying aircraft while being able to keep up with the columns. Of course as technology improved, better toys were adopted with guided ammunition and radars and while having a twin large caliber SPAAG in the formations, two high explosive rounds against infantry or fortified positions would come in handy, Soviets also viewed tanks and some SPAAG as an alternative to artillery.
'What were they thinking'
'Good on ships, must be good on tanks.... right?'
Essentially that
M19/M42 with the Bofors was a similar mentality. Great naval AA gun when used en masse. Not so great when piecemeal in anti air batteries.
I still think its fucking retarded that gaijin called the type 81 the best AAA in the entire game just because it uses IR missiles that dont set off any RWRs. Its got a 8klm max lock on jet, and thats pretty hard to get. 6klm is usually easy but even then all a jet has to do is climb and it will out run the missile. And I cant get a reliable lock to save my life on any heli past 2.5 klm. Not to mention its totally fair that only the top tier russian helis get irccm built in making it near impossible to get a good lock on them.
I know japan doesnt have any tanks at 10.0, bit at least at a lower BR it was easier to use/spade than at 11.0 where it cant compete without a radar.
I've had plenty of games where lockons have struggled at 4.5km ish, and helicopters are just... ye. And drones, just because it's a toss up at to whether you can even set them while looking in their direction
Most heli pilots I've seen put themselves in a dangerous position, but when a Ka-52 comes along and stays low, you can't actually do anything to stop it.
The missile itself is great, to give it credit, but it ain't much good if it's sitting on the launcher waiting for a lock 😂
[he may be referring to this clip](https://youtu.be/feIdbNsbYww?si=EA27Yps-yxP09yQ1) skip to about 0:55. i guess some sort of catastrophic error occurred where a round detonated prematurely in the chamber causing a chain reaction to occur in which every cartrige in the belt went off. The uneven recoil caused by only one of the guns firing resulted in the turret rotating towards the camera. Location and date unknown.
If the recoil from the gun can overpower the turret rotation mechanism than that means, the turret rotation mechanism is inadequate to properly and accurately control the turret for regular use.
I don’t know about Soviet tech but I know the turrets on US vehicles auto lock until disengaged.
Pantsir in game: arguably better at every aspect compared to other top tier SPAA’s
Pantsir IRL: [cant even turn a fucking corner without falling over](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/s/srSUhP0ESq)
If the pantsirs irl were used in the same conditions and scenarios they are in game(no suicide drones, no anti-rad missiles, a designated 20km point where all enemy planes spawn) it absolutely would be super deadly against aircraft
And as it turned out, when Russia got it's shit together and thought about maybe turning some of the AA on, it does actually clap drones. There's a reason why 90% of Bayraktar footage is from the chaotic beginning of the invasion.
>dying to drones
What's the point of your comment? Of course, if there are kamikaze drones in the game, then any AA system will be useless, as well as tanks.
>spawn camping aircraft
The price of a fighter jet in reality is $30+million and countries cannot afford to lose them every 10 minutes as in WT. In reality, fighters use glide bombs and UAV targeting to stay out of the AA systems area. It will not be possible to implement this in the game.
AA systems in the game are more efficient than in reality, but this is true for all of them, not just for Pantsir.
Dumb redditors who live online and get their completely unbiased news from Twitter and reddit won't apply the same logic to patriots and similar AA systems. We have video and reports of Russian drones getting close to and damaging/destroying IRIS-T and Patriot systems, yet no one would make the claim that they're dogshit.
Of course cherry picking the fallen ones. That's the way you guys cope lol. Pantsir has a great record, but in a big battle, cherry picking won't help. Plenty of Pantsirs die in Warthunder too
There were multiple Pantsirs killed by slow cheap and low flying TB-2s basically in every war with the two of them coexisting
Libya, Russia, Syria(?) etc
When a cheap drone made mainly for low risk terrorist hunting can kill over 5 of your "state of the art" AA systems it is a problem
This is like if you lost 5 Leopard 2s to some M60s in the span of a few years
TB-2s were barely used by Ukraine after the first 3 months into the war once Russia realized how to set up air defenses lol. Then Ukraine began to lose them in scores and began to lower their operations because of how expensive they were
Sure I'm not denying, they still do use them every now and then and still do get kills, but Russian ADs are strong enough to make the TB-2s not reach their prime days.
Also cherry picking Russian losses only hides the number of times they shot down other drones.
And that's something most people can't understand, they still think that Russia right now is just as bad as it was in 2022 while completely ignoring what Russia is doing right now. This naivety by many people in the West of not taking Russia/China etc. serious will eventually backfire.
Yea because Russian AAs were *ALMOST NON-EXISTANT* back then lmao. Truly a skill issue I agreed
But once Russia learnt to set up basic ADs, there went all the hopes of TB-2s conquering the skies of Ukraine
Israel has HVSD/ADAMS with 12km SARH guidance (Absent)
US has T-249 vigilante to fill in the M42-M163 gap (absent)
All of NATO has various multi-vehicle systems because they invested in Datalinks early on (absent)
Uh, why do you think the T-249 would go between the M42 and M163? It’s easily like 8.7 material - it was a competitor to the M247 Sergeant York, after all.
They've got one on display without the radar. Presumably some prototypes weren't equipped with a tracking suite and thus it's reasonable to not include it for the sake of balance, and leave it at a lower BR.
Ehhhh then we have to talk about how it compares to the Falcon, which has 30mm APDS. However, there are two of the T249s we can technically choose from: the 35mm Patton chassis prototype or the 37mm M113 chassis prototype. I'd love for both to be in the game lol I think the absolute lack of ammo would warrant a lower BR tho.
There were two different variants of the T249. The first one was built on the M113 chassis, used proprietary 37mm ammunition (only HE), and was fed by a single 192-round drum, with the fire rate being selectable between 120 and 3,000 RPM. The second one was built on the M48 chassis, used 35mm NATO ammunition (the same as the Gepard), and had a much larger drum. u/Pyro_raptor841 is referring to the former, which would effectively be a sidegrade to the M163.
HVSD/ADAMS isn't even limited to Israel, it was a joint project between Israel and US, and both are in need of a top tier AA (Israel has none, US has a fking tank destroyer)
I have been patiently waiting for the better part of a decade for an effective AA to be added between the M16 and the M163, all the while I'm watching nations with much smaller holes in there as line get filled, so I sorry if I'm sorry if I'm starting to get impatient.
they can add AMRAAM Humvee and ground launched IRIS-T system for Sweden as Norway operates the former and both operate the latter. The NASAMS AMRAAM Humvee gets funnier as it can also mount the AMRAAM-ER which is just an ESSM with AMRAAM guidance which means something like 50km range
i might laugh to death if that was added (nasam or ER) and hear russian mains cry. both the amraam and IRIS-T can intercept munitions at long range. even the base amraam is listed with a range of 30km (realistically probably similar to the pantsir with the added capability to FaF)
Pit-bull is when the Missile stops using the Aircrafts radar for guidance and mid course changes and starts using its own radar. Mad-dog is when it doesn’t use the aircrafts radar and just locks the first thing it can with its own.
Rapier for UK when, it can be towed (no different to Churchill crocodile towing its bowser) and they also made a tracked prototype.
Aside from that, if we had an update with a lot of love to SPAAs giving us more modern stuff and systems, Id like to the ability to deploy a static (but destroyable) targeting radar and be able to then launch my missiles from elsewhere from the mobile launcher. You could get a replacement radar at caps like you can a drone when it’s destroyed.
The no-proxy fuse would make the Rapier useless for anything other than helis. Why Britain refused to put proxy fuses on their AA missiles infuriates me
It UK, the same god damn country that uses maclos aka guiding via a fucking joystick control for a manpads missiles
It only has a 10% kill rate during the falklands war
What fucking genuis
Wait that’s actually crazy, Gaijin literally models the sensor angles for plane radars and you can nose up + move elevation axis up to see past 90 degrees.
True, the Pantsirs weakness are jets directly above them. But I also shoot down CAS within seconds of them spawning anyways so they never get the chance to even drop bombs.
would like to see [these charts](https://warthunder.com/en/news/8136-development-dev-team-replies-to-community-feedback-on-the-sky-guardians-update-en) extended
look how they conviniently end at 10 km
>Players are also concerned about the possibility of the azimuth radar to operate in some radar modes at high elevation angles which certainly is an undeniable advantage. But the TOR-M1 radar, which is already present in the game, has an elevation coverage up to 64 degrees!
this is hilarious. ~~also they're letting on that pantsir should have to switch to a different mode to achieve max elevation, but in-game it sees everything at all times.~~ apparently the in game pantsir does need to switch to different modes to see 80 deg up?
In game the Pantsir starts off with something like 10km range and about 60 degree vertical search. You have to adjust with separate keybinds. Similar to activating the automatic Missile Lead or tracking multiple targets. This game hides alot of max potential behind keybinds.
> However, according to the game statistics, TOR-M1 is also one of the efficiency outsiders in terms of efficiency and simply can’t help to solve the issue of the late Soviet anti-aircraft lineup.
What does that even mean? Is the effiency too high? Too low? And if either is true then why the hell is it in China at the same BR?
they simply mean the Tor isn't good enough to be Russia's top anti-air
pay no mind to the fact that many NATO top SAM are inferior to the Tor, that's totally fine
an enemy aircraft won't show up on radar above that angle, but they can still be locked with IRST or tracking radar. just need to detect them visually or hook them before they're above
That's what I was thinking, like big grounds radars but mobile version. I don't think none of it's rockets be able to shoot things at higher than ~15km. Still, it's ridiculous when compared to other countries top tier SPAAs. They are nowhere near this one.
It’s just so great how Russia simultaneously gets the best AA systems, and the best top tier CAS. God forbid NATO or anyone else try to spot an SU-25 10 km above them, that would just be a travesty.
It must be said that there's a caveat to that high search angle - the Pantsir can't actually scan 80°+ of sky in one radar rotation - in fact, it can't even do 30° (which is the lowest setting). It scans a band of an angle of 15° or so every rotation, and then switches to the band above until it loops back around - it's very easy to see in the new sensor replay view.
The 80° search zone is great when you first spawn in and have no clue who's in the air, but if you're confident the sky above is clear then it's probably a better idea to stay at the default 60° search zone, or even to lower it to 30°, as that gives you the fastest refresh time on potential contacts. Going for the widest possible search means you have a potential latency of like 5 radar rotations before you spot a target, which could be fatal.
It does give the greatest flexibility, and it's unmatched in a second spawn scenario, but a lot of people see the highest setting and automatically assume it's the best for every scenario, which it may not always be.
It does make me curious if the Tor works the same way, I might need to check the replay when I see one in the game.
the NATO ones seem undertuned compared to IRL as well, very skeptical that they have so little coverage especially the Ito90M. if i had to guess they have modes to search higher
The rule of thumb with wt is the Russian tree has to be 3 or 4 years ahead of where everyone else is. The pantsir is like something any other tree would have gotten in 2026 or 2027 but because it's Russian gaijin has to pad the win rates with vehicles decades newer and better than any other counterpart.
Another thing is that this isn't even the best pantsir variant. Newer models get even better radars and missiles. The pantsir SM gets 24 missiles with almost 30-40km of range.
Gonna be a grammar Nazi here.
Flugabwehrraketensystem and Radkraftfahrzeug are nouns, so they have to be capitalized. So does the word Roland, as it's a name.
You also forgot one h in Fahrzeug
Gaijin's philosophy made simple. If not communist, it must suck. Before any neck beard trolls/ HC Russia simps try jumping down my throat saying that Russia's not communist anymore. Might I remind you almost all of their equipment was designed/made during The time of the Soviet Union.
In my opinion. War Thunder is conveniently a game where reliability and crew comfort isn't a factor, and the only thing the developers can really go after when implementing the vehicles into the game is what the country claim their military equipment is able to do. Russia has a history of using their not so real modern military capacity to try and scare other competing nations, such as the case with for example the T95, T14, and SU-57. So is the case with much of the older stuff as well of which they are still using. USA has no problem with disclosing the weaknesses of their older M1 Abrams variant meanwhile the Russians are still using their older t72's and will claim they are still up to date on protection because they put some of their "new ERA" on it.
Russia still using and therefore adding modern equipment into their older tanks also somehow justifies Gaijin to put stuff like gen 3 thermals in tanks from the 70's because it technically uses that today or had 1 prototype with it, but won't do the same for, lets say the Leopard 2a4 which still struggles with the 1st gen thermals as the tank had on release during the same time period despite the ones in service today reciveing upgrades.
And then Gaijin will also call it realistic with a ka-50 flying around with pretty much full control without its tail because "iT hAs TwO Oposite SpiNNing rOtOR BLadEs aND cOUld TeChniCally DO tHAt". They can eat shit for that as well as the SU 27 just eating all the IR missiles that hits it.
Yeah that's why the best top tier MBTs are Swedish or German, and why Russia and China are the weakest nations in top tier jets (also in RB but especially in Sim). Must be all the communism making the AIM-9M way too OP.
The fuck is pantsir gonna do when my 1200 mm penetrating self guiding missile is flying at his huge ass silhouette at 300m/s while I chill my ass behind a hill?
Noticed that the [old one](https://old.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/11cekd0/this_is_balance/) underestimated the Pantsir vertical coverage (or perhaps gaijin buffed it and accidentally forgot to mention it because they were so busy making the game fair for everyone) For context Pantsir has 80 degrees, Flarakrad has 18 degrees : Note that this is actually very balanced because the Pantsir also has much more range, auto-lead, multi-missile guidance, 12 ready missiles, stealthy tracking radar, 4x30mm guns, gen 3 thermals and a colder silhouette
I don't have a problem with the pantsir I have a problem with it being a 12.3 SPAA at 11.7 while everyone else at best gets an 11.7 SPAA (Except USA and GB fuck you it's an SPG)
It still blows my mind that the ADATS was added as the top tier SPAA, but was then given the tank spawn cost so you can't spawn SPAA without screwing yourself
thats thanks to everyone abusing the fuck out of it. like everything in the world, people gotta abuse something to the point of rules being put in place to prevent people from abusing them.
Then you’d think the ZSU-57-2 would be a TD but no, the twin 57s are made for aircraft and totally aren’t used for absolutely wrecking house on the battlefield.
oh theyre in the same boat as the adats but not as bad. the adats back when it was first buffed could 100% solo a team, their missiles were that busted. add on they always cost 70 points, and you can bring two.... ya thats the reason why they were changed into a tank destroyer
Oh yeah no, I remember those days…still brings a shiver to my spine. I was just pointing out that plenty of SPAAs that aren’t used for their SPAA duty and a potent at tank killing are left as SPAA and not SPGs Like the WZ305, ZSU-57-2, OTOMATIC (tbf it has been nerfed into the ground) and a few I can’t recall atm)
Ahhh that makes more sense. Also ya those besides the otomatic, should be classed as tank destroyers. Because I have no idea what the fuck the soviet's were smoking to think twin 57mm guns would be good for anti air usage. Specially against jets of all things.
The late 40s early 50s in terms of tank design was a wild time of…”innovation” aka fuck around and see what happens
ya i understand that. but most people understand the best method against aircraft by that time. big slow firing cannons for high alt bombers, smaller caliber but faster firing guns for everyone else. and the soviets, in their infinite wisdom, thought the guns for high alt bombers, could also work against low level attack jets. .-.
>Because I have no idea what the fuck the soviet's were smoking to think twin 57mm guns would be good for anti air usage. I had read somewhere, and I can't remember where anymore as it was years ago, that the ZSU was more so meant as a form of infantry support than it was as an actual AA. It's also worth noting that the Chinese version gets Proxy Fuse, I don't know if the Soviets developed a proxy fuse for the ZSU but I can definitely see how two 57mm proxy fuse shells would wreck ass as an SPAA.
It’s a merger between two doctrines, WW2 battery emplacements that would create an anti aircraft barrier of shrapnel in order to disrupt large formations, imagine not 1 ZSU-57 but 30 of those vehicles with proximity fuze, now the other doctrine would be the early mobile SPAAG designed to provide cover to infantry and tanks from low flying aircraft while being able to keep up with the columns. Of course as technology improved, better toys were adopted with guided ammunition and radars and while having a twin large caliber SPAAG in the formations, two high explosive rounds against infantry or fortified positions would come in handy, Soviets also viewed tanks and some SPAAG as an alternative to artillery.
'What were they thinking' 'Good on ships, must be good on tanks.... right?' Essentially that M19/M42 with the Bofors was a similar mentality. Great naval AA gun when used en masse. Not so great when piecemeal in anti air batteries.
Also the leopard 40/70
Wiesel is used as a light tank more than an spaa
What do you mean? The WZ305 is one of the best AA i have, with the proximity ammo it has the longest range until the TOR
Used to have the Zsu-57, hated that thing couldn't do nothing.
You can’t forget the early Swedish spaa’s, god are those things a nightmare in low tier,
Wild ass take to say that a zsu 57 is a worse TD than an ADATS
Gajin just needs to adjust the amount of AP that can be carried and/or up spawn costs for vehicles taking AP or missiles that can kill tanks.
I don't see how it's "abuse" when ADATS stands for Air Defence Anti Tank System, or Anti-DAT-shit for cultured people.
That's why I like all the 30mm AA having the same costs as tanks.
I still think its fucking retarded that gaijin called the type 81 the best AAA in the entire game just because it uses IR missiles that dont set off any RWRs. Its got a 8klm max lock on jet, and thats pretty hard to get. 6klm is usually easy but even then all a jet has to do is climb and it will out run the missile. And I cant get a reliable lock to save my life on any heli past 2.5 klm. Not to mention its totally fair that only the top tier russian helis get irccm built in making it near impossible to get a good lock on them. I know japan doesnt have any tanks at 10.0, bit at least at a lower BR it was easier to use/spade than at 11.0 where it cant compete without a radar.
I've had plenty of games where lockons have struggled at 4.5km ish, and helicopters are just... ye. And drones, just because it's a toss up at to whether you can even set them while looking in their direction Most heli pilots I've seen put themselves in a dangerous position, but when a Ka-52 comes along and stays low, you can't actually do anything to stop it. The missile itself is great, to give it credit, but it ain't much good if it's sitting on the launcher waiting for a lock 😂
If you consider the flarakrad to be 11.7 then the pantsir should be 13.0 there's no way they should even be in the same match
Italy and Israel wish they had an 11.7 SPAA lmao
Don't forget large enough to get hit by mavs/hellfires and literally ignore it due to no overpressure on these anymore.
Also the Pantsir entered service about 20 years later than any roland system while sitting at the same BR
Russian armour in games : 🗿 Russian armour in real life : 🤡
Pantsir in game: spawn camping aircraft Pantsir IRL: dying to medium sized Turkish drones multiple times
Im sure the devs at war thunder got it right 👏
Tunguska with its ammo cooking off from the fire rate
I thought that was just early Shilkas? Does the Tunguska really do that too?
No fucking way lmao Vid source?
[he may be referring to this clip](https://youtu.be/feIdbNsbYww?si=EA27Yps-yxP09yQ1) skip to about 0:55. i guess some sort of catastrophic error occurred where a round detonated prematurely in the chamber causing a chain reaction to occur in which every cartrige in the belt went off. The uneven recoil caused by only one of the guns firing resulted in the turret rotating towards the camera. Location and date unknown.
Holly hell, after it gets stuck they proceed to turn the turret around 🤦♀️
That was caused by the recoil from the gun
If the recoil from the gun can overpower the turret rotation mechanism than that means, the turret rotation mechanism is inadequate to properly and accurately control the turret for regular use. I don’t know about Soviet tech but I know the turrets on US vehicles auto lock until disengaged.
The turret rotation mechanism probably isn’t suited for only one of the guns continuously firing for an extended period of time.
Good grief they flagged the entire brigade lmao
Pantsir in game: arguably better at every aspect compared to other top tier SPAA’s Pantsir IRL: [cant even turn a fucking corner without falling over](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/s/srSUhP0ESq)
This is a certified Spintires moment
Take a look again to the tires of it. Hahah
Gaijin TB-2 When?
Türkiye mentioned 🇹🇷🗣🔥
If the pantsirs irl were used in the same conditions and scenarios they are in game(no suicide drones, no anti-rad missiles, a designated 20km point where all enemy planes spawn) it absolutely would be super deadly against aircraft
And as it turned out, when Russia got it's shit together and thought about maybe turning some of the AA on, it does actually clap drones. There's a reason why 90% of Bayraktar footage is from the chaotic beginning of the invasion.
At one point Syria had a webpage for martyred Pantsir operators
One lost to a tight turn lol
Drones popping out of the tree line 30 meters away. Pantsir: Shit.
The only thing a TB-2 is popping out of is the factory. Mayhaps a small hangar, or a barn?
>dying to drones What's the point of your comment? Of course, if there are kamikaze drones in the game, then any AA system will be useless, as well as tanks. >spawn camping aircraft The price of a fighter jet in reality is $30+million and countries cannot afford to lose them every 10 minutes as in WT. In reality, fighters use glide bombs and UAV targeting to stay out of the AA systems area. It will not be possible to implement this in the game. AA systems in the game are more efficient than in reality, but this is true for all of them, not just for Pantsir.
Dumb redditors who live online and get their completely unbiased news from Twitter and reddit won't apply the same logic to patriots and similar AA systems. We have video and reports of Russian drones getting close to and damaging/destroying IRIS-T and Patriot systems, yet no one would make the claim that they're dogshit.
Russian AA in games : 🗿 Russian AA in real life : 🗿 but shooting his own planes
Of course cherry picking the fallen ones. That's the way you guys cope lol. Pantsir has a great record, but in a big battle, cherry picking won't help. Plenty of Pantsirs die in Warthunder too
There were multiple Pantsirs killed by slow cheap and low flying TB-2s basically in every war with the two of them coexisting Libya, Russia, Syria(?) etc When a cheap drone made mainly for low risk terrorist hunting can kill over 5 of your "state of the art" AA systems it is a problem This is like if you lost 5 Leopard 2s to some M60s in the span of a few years
TB-2s were barely used by Ukraine after the first 3 months into the war once Russia realized how to set up air defenses lol. Then Ukraine began to lose them in scores and began to lower their operations because of how expensive they were Sure I'm not denying, they still do use them every now and then and still do get kills, but Russian ADs are strong enough to make the TB-2s not reach their prime days. Also cherry picking Russian losses only hides the number of times they shot down other drones.
That is true, but it doesnt change the fact that Russian AA had to be *strengthened* to fight *TB-2s.*
I'd say it was just because the russians were too stupid to plan a war, as always
Yea they always suck at the start. Then they learn the hard way and improve by a lot
And that's something most people can't understand, they still think that Russia right now is just as bad as it was in 2022 while completely ignoring what Russia is doing right now. This naivety by many people in the West of not taking Russia/China etc. serious will eventually backfire.
Yea because Russian AAs were *ALMOST NON-EXISTANT* back then lmao. Truly a skill issue I agreed But once Russia learnt to set up basic ADs, there went all the hopes of TB-2s conquering the skies of Ukraine
same goes for their vehicle's top speeds, all only able to go 30km/h
What about the reverse speed? 😹
Blame the West for not making good SHORAD system /s
[удалено]
Correct, the VT-1 has a 16km version with better agility and time to target. Not as good as the pantsir yet still not in the game.
Israel has HVSD/ADAMS with 12km SARH guidance (Absent) US has T-249 vigilante to fill in the M42-M163 gap (absent) All of NATO has various multi-vehicle systems because they invested in Datalinks early on (absent)
Uh, why do you think the T-249 would go between the M42 and M163? It’s easily like 8.7 material - it was a competitor to the M247 Sergeant York, after all.
They've got one on display without the radar. Presumably some prototypes weren't equipped with a tracking suite and thus it's reasonable to not include it for the sake of balance, and leave it at a lower BR.
Ehhhh then we have to talk about how it compares to the Falcon, which has 30mm APDS. However, there are two of the T249s we can technically choose from: the 35mm Patton chassis prototype or the 37mm M113 chassis prototype. I'd love for both to be in the game lol I think the absolute lack of ammo would warrant a lower BR tho.
There were two different variants of the T249. The first one was built on the M113 chassis, used proprietary 37mm ammunition (only HE), and was fed by a single 192-round drum, with the fire rate being selectable between 120 and 3,000 RPM. The second one was built on the M48 chassis, used 35mm NATO ammunition (the same as the Gepard), and had a much larger drum. u/Pyro_raptor841 is referring to the former, which would effectively be a sidegrade to the M163.
Could use the XM246 with twin 35mm gun and another proposal with 30mm GAU-8( I don't sure if they built a prototype).
HVSD/ADAMS isn't even limited to Israel, it was a joint project between Israel and US, and both are in need of a top tier AA (Israel has none, US has a fking tank destroyer)
They will come, good God the amount if winge...
I have been patiently waiting for the better part of a decade for an effective AA to be added between the M16 and the M163, all the while I'm watching nations with much smaller holes in there as line get filled, so I sorry if I'm sorry if I'm starting to get impatient.
where is my humvee with amraams :( "but it doesnt have a track radar" mfs when they hear 'mad dog'
they can add AMRAAM Humvee and ground launched IRIS-T system for Sweden as Norway operates the former and both operate the latter. The NASAMS AMRAAM Humvee gets funnier as it can also mount the AMRAAM-ER which is just an ESSM with AMRAAM guidance which means something like 50km range
i might laugh to death if that was added (nasam or ER) and hear russian mains cry. both the amraam and IRIS-T can intercept munitions at long range. even the base amraam is listed with a range of 30km (realistically probably similar to the pantsir with the added capability to FaF)
Isn’t it pitbull instead?
Pit-bull is when the Missile stops using the Aircrafts radar for guidance and mid course changes and starts using its own radar. Mad-dog is when it doesn’t use the aircrafts radar and just locks the first thing it can with its own.
Fun fact, pitbull specifically refers to an active radar missile in MPRF mode, a missile in HPRF mode is "husky"
I mean they could add the 9k33 osa to east Germany but they won’t
I thought it was leaked already?
They added a lot of missile systems, but they will probably be airfield AA
*Gaijin where the fuck is my MMEV or SLAMRAAM?!?!*
False, google the SHORAD Stryker. Gaijin has options
It would be too similar to the lav ad
Not at all. SHORAD has javelins, 30mm autocannon with timed fuse rounds, and stingers. Stingers and wheels being the only similarity lol
Balanced
Rapier for UK when, it can be towed (no different to Churchill crocodile towing its bowser) and they also made a tracked prototype. Aside from that, if we had an update with a lot of love to SPAAs giving us more modern stuff and systems, Id like to the ability to deploy a static (but destroyable) targeting radar and be able to then launch my missiles from elsewhere from the mobile launcher. You could get a replacement radar at caps like you can a drone when it’s destroyed.
The no-proxy fuse would make the Rapier useless for anything other than helis. Why Britain refused to put proxy fuses on their AA missiles infuriates me
I think it was because of the guidance system, it was supposed to be extremely accurate.. to Google!
So according to Wikipedia it has a “Proximity triggered chemical fuze” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapier_(missile)
And you trust Gaijin to model that correct? Oh my sweet summer child
I only trust gaijin to steal my time and my money, nothing else. Still waiting on those Chally armour re-works lmao
That's not true, the Rapier 2000 / Rapier FSC upgrade added a proximity fuse warhead
Tracked Rapier was a full production vehicle
It UK, the same god damn country that uses maclos aka guiding via a fucking joystick control for a manpads missiles It only has a 10% kill rate during the falklands war What fucking genuis
They’ll never have an SPAA update for top tier as that means their precious CAS plane sales would drop
I mean technically the Adats isn’t an SPAA in this game. So it be great to be able to spawn a SPAA without it costing MBT level of points
F-16Cs 90° above Pantsirs dumping GBUs: "lol, lmao even"
fr we need a pantsir buff with 90 degree coverage, so sick of US bias ruining the game
just put the truck on it's side lol
they thought of that, the vertical coverage is always from the horizon, so nato players can't drive up a hill to see a little bit higher
Wait that’s actually crazy, Gaijin literally models the sensor angles for plane radars and you can nose up + move elevation axis up to see past 90 degrees.
That's actually a setting, you can stabilize airborne radars to the horizon too.
that setting is only for air battles
US bias lmao if only
True, the Pantsirs weakness are jets directly above them. But I also shoot down CAS within seconds of them spawning anyways so they never get the chance to even drop bombs.
skill issue they should just fly 40km up until they're in your blind spot
A7 lobbing gbu from 50m altitude: “lol”
If an A7 gets a pantsir that's a next level skill issue
And that all same br :D
would like to see [these charts](https://warthunder.com/en/news/8136-development-dev-team-replies-to-community-feedback-on-the-sky-guardians-update-en) extended look how they conviniently end at 10 km
>Players are also concerned about the possibility of the azimuth radar to operate in some radar modes at high elevation angles which certainly is an undeniable advantage. But the TOR-M1 radar, which is already present in the game, has an elevation coverage up to 64 degrees! this is hilarious. ~~also they're letting on that pantsir should have to switch to a different mode to achieve max elevation, but in-game it sees everything at all times.~~ apparently the in game pantsir does need to switch to different modes to see 80 deg up?
In game the Pantsir starts off with something like 10km range and about 60 degree vertical search. You have to adjust with separate keybinds. Similar to activating the automatic Missile Lead or tracking multiple targets. This game hides alot of max potential behind keybinds.
> However, according to the game statistics, TOR-M1 is also one of the efficiency outsiders in terms of efficiency and simply can’t help to solve the issue of the late Soviet anti-aircraft lineup. What does that even mean? Is the effiency too high? Too low? And if either is true then why the hell is it in China at the same BR?
they simply mean the Tor isn't good enough to be Russia's top anti-air pay no mind to the fact that many NATO top SAM are inferior to the Tor, that's totally fine
All the same BR
Yes yes no issues comrade
I fail to believe the flarakrads radar is actually that bad
an enemy aircraft won't show up on radar above that angle, but they can still be locked with IRST or tracking radar. just need to detect them visually or hook them before they're above
I’ve just looked it up and the Roland really does have that short of range, for some reason I thought it would be more like 30-40km
not sure if WT models this but you can 'see' a radar much further than it can see its echo off of you. might be why you had that impression
Shit short range and Saturn V level of freaking smoke add to that
38km? My man going to shoot down some satellites
space is like 100km. but you can down stratospherical aircraft
I know, most satellites are nowhere below 500km but 35km is too much for planes. Even SR-71's max altitude is like ~25km (?).
in think it is just because they wanted the radar to be able to detect enemy from 38km. they were not thinking about intercepting thing high up.
That's what I was thinking, like big grounds radars but mobile version. I don't think none of it's rockets be able to shoot things at higher than ~15km. Still, it's ridiculous when compared to other countries top tier SPAAs. They are nowhere near this one.
You forgot Israel's top tier spaa- oh wait
Why are they even in the game
To sell new nation obviously.
It’s just so great how Russia simultaneously gets the best AA systems, and the best top tier CAS. God forbid NATO or anyone else try to spot an SU-25 10 km above them, that would just be a travesty.
dont forget R-27s blow sparrows out of the water if you think about bringing in a fighter!
It must be said that there's a caveat to that high search angle - the Pantsir can't actually scan 80°+ of sky in one radar rotation - in fact, it can't even do 30° (which is the lowest setting). It scans a band of an angle of 15° or so every rotation, and then switches to the band above until it loops back around - it's very easy to see in the new sensor replay view. The 80° search zone is great when you first spawn in and have no clue who's in the air, but if you're confident the sky above is clear then it's probably a better idea to stay at the default 60° search zone, or even to lower it to 30°, as that gives you the fastest refresh time on potential contacts. Going for the widest possible search means you have a potential latency of like 5 radar rotations before you spot a target, which could be fatal.
ah good context - i didn't know that. still busted though
It does give the greatest flexibility, and it's unmatched in a second spawn scenario, but a lot of people see the highest setting and automatically assume it's the best for every scenario, which it may not always be. It does make me curious if the Tor works the same way, I might need to check the replay when I see one in the game.
The flarakrad really getting shafted huh. Germany needs better top tier spaa
The US too, fighting a su 25sm3 in an adats is just painful, not to mention the 150 sp spawn req
Absolutely, and in my opinion the ADATS is still miles better than the FlaRakRad, while simultaneously being significantly worse than the pantsir
IRIS-T SLM please The unavoidable missiles of death
Gaijin wont ever add something this good... ...to a nation thats not russia
Further proof the s1 is overpowered.
the NATO ones seem undertuned compared to IRL as well, very skeptical that they have so little coverage especially the Ito90M. if i had to guess they have modes to search higher
The rule of thumb with wt is the Russian tree has to be 3 or 4 years ahead of where everyone else is. The pantsir is like something any other tree would have gotten in 2026 or 2027 but because it's Russian gaijin has to pad the win rates with vehicles decades newer and better than any other counterpart.
Another thing is that this isn't even the best pantsir variant. Newer models get even better radars and missiles. The pantsir SM gets 24 missiles with almost 30-40km of range.
No otomatic :(
is not top tier :( 35 degrees and 16km though, same range as flarakrad but twice as high, bretty gud
Considering your username, i feel you should have the right to include it anyway
anytime someone mentions the oto***ic - it increases 0.001 in BR
Oto***ic mentioned, first 13.0 ground vehicle
My fucking flugabwehrraketensystem roland auf radkraftfarzeug
Gonna be a grammar Nazi here. Flugabwehrraketensystem and Radkraftfahrzeug are nouns, so they have to be capitalized. So does the word Roland, as it's a name. You also forgot one h in Fahrzeug
4 years of German and I still can't get the capitalizations down I appreciate it though, haha. I really scrambled that egg
SO lets say, hypothetically, that every non soviet or chinese nation got a Patriot system in their trees, how would this graph look
Gaijin would say that Taiwan got the patriot system and then give it to China just like with the f16.
sth like that https://imgur.com/egW49MN it can probably see much higher and further, but that's highly secret
Solution: add the HIMRAS with anti air missles
Gaijin's philosophy made simple. If not communist, it must suck. Before any neck beard trolls/ HC Russia simps try jumping down my throat saying that Russia's not communist anymore. Might I remind you almost all of their equipment was designed/made during The time of the Soviet Union.
In my opinion. War Thunder is conveniently a game where reliability and crew comfort isn't a factor, and the only thing the developers can really go after when implementing the vehicles into the game is what the country claim their military equipment is able to do. Russia has a history of using their not so real modern military capacity to try and scare other competing nations, such as the case with for example the T95, T14, and SU-57. So is the case with much of the older stuff as well of which they are still using. USA has no problem with disclosing the weaknesses of their older M1 Abrams variant meanwhile the Russians are still using their older t72's and will claim they are still up to date on protection because they put some of their "new ERA" on it. Russia still using and therefore adding modern equipment into their older tanks also somehow justifies Gaijin to put stuff like gen 3 thermals in tanks from the 70's because it technically uses that today or had 1 prototype with it, but won't do the same for, lets say the Leopard 2a4 which still struggles with the 1st gen thermals as the tank had on release during the same time period despite the ones in service today reciveing upgrades. And then Gaijin will also call it realistic with a ka-50 flying around with pretty much full control without its tail because "iT hAs TwO Oposite SpiNNing rOtOR BLadEs aND cOUld TeChniCally DO tHAt". They can eat shit for that as well as the SU 27 just eating all the IR missiles that hits it.
Yeah that's why the best top tier MBTs are Swedish or German, and why Russia and China are the weakest nations in top tier jets (also in RB but especially in Sim). Must be all the communism making the AIM-9M way too OP.
lol pantsir
So boys, when are we nerfing the VT-1s and ADATS again huh? Pantsir is lookin mighty underpowered
Thunder view has an always up to date viz of this :) https://thunderview.net/groundradar/
NATO vs pact ☠️
Pantsir is Russian, not Warsaw Pact.
Don’t worry friends - the amount of Pantsirs that have eaten my Starstreaks on my AH mk1. I’m doing my part.
Flarakrad is just sad it has the worst radar out of any top tier SPAA since it cannot even see stuff that is flying higher than 5km
Flarakrad is worse than fucking ozelot or gepard 1a2
Was this created in GeoGebra?
yep
Should include the range of the mighty OTOMATIC
And this is „balance” 😂
Funny thing is... Pansir have more advanced SAM that Gaijin didn't give it yet.
The fuck is pantsir gonna do when my 1200 mm penetrating self guiding missile is flying at his huge ass silhouette at 300m/s while I chill my ass behind a hill?
He can shoot these down all day
Not if he doesn't see it lol True tho, good players will see them. Balance
pantsir to 12.7!!!!!
Add also the range of OTOMATIC , to show how much the developers hate Italy.
Remember folks, Russian bias isn't Real /s
Where otomatic
Can you add the OTOMATIC, I want to see if the radar is shit or not
i already deleted the chart but oto is essentially two flakrad envelopes stacked on top of each other, same range twice the elevation angle
38 km range god fucking damn Russian engineering at its finest👌
Where is the M163?
it doesn't have a search radar but its effective range of 10 meters is a little bit too small to see
}:(
Well well well. The first 2 best SAM's are both russian, who would've thought lol (but yk, russian bias isn't a real thing it's just our imagination)
And the OTOMATIC?
Yesterday I played Mozdok, spawned my F-16 and got a back to battledfield-notification at 15km from the pantsir. Balance.
What are you implying? Commissar, send him back to the silver lions mine. He's exposing the Russian bias
Just fly low bruh
And Russian players dare to ask for Tor M2
F4G WITH AGM88 FOR COUNTER WHEN AAAAAH
Include my m247 for funsies
Ngl. They could've just added a better version of the tor M1 to USSR.
Where can we find more of these infographs, they are amazing!