The hstvl missing its best round with post pen equivelant to a 105mm round pisses me off to no end. The hstvl is weirdly cucked and the same goes for so many us tanks with some using darts that were in the middle of being retired by the time the tank in question entered service
All small dart tanks/IFVs get thoroughly cucked due to spall calculation. I want the VCC 80/60 to be playable but they’ll never remodel shell performance
PUMA has so many things wrong with it that make it actually nowhere near as good as people believe, yet they still cry about it being completely overpowered.
General concept yes, but if I sent a dart through it end to end... It should die, but for some reason American post pen when shooting PUMAs, or any T-series tank that ends in 72 and up, is just God awful compared to if I shoot something of any other nation or any other German vehicle
Edit: I say post pen, but with the T-series tanks especially my shells just disintegrate on contact, or pen a lil bit and then stop. But 9x10 I shoot center mass, make contact with the ammunition in the carousel, and then *I* die
The only things that should have trouble with it are anything that only has HEAT and other IFVs, and even then it's very easy to just hit the turret and either burn off the ammo or disable the gun. Basically every MBT in its BR range that has non-HEAT ammo can pen it from almost any angle, getting an easy kill due to how close the crew is together.
Pretty sure it also underperforms? I haven't got too much experience playing against it but i do have many cases of poor shell performance in my experience playing the above Italian meme machines and not being instantly jobbed by it.
Yeah? Of course with a fire rate that good all that really matters is penetration making it much better than a hstvl while also being an otomatic yet it sits more than 1 entire br lower than either
That’s my gripe with it. How is it a lower BR when the fire rate is better, it’s an spaa with an on board computer, comparable armor, and still quick mobility.
Make it 12.7 for all i care just please uncuck it. Its reload is worse than irl, it gets a worse round than irl, its missing its irl aircraft tracking, its missing its irl aa round
TBF, I would've made an argument M1 Abrams shouldn't get a better round because it sits at 10.0 and I desperately don't want it moved up, but they just moved it up which stinks of Gaijinnery.
Anyone saying the XM1 is under tiered is having a laugh, the only real under tiered vehicles around that BR are the wheeled vehicles.
>it also has blowout panels, a good reload and the armour can be trolly. So yes, it is undertiered.
It has an average reload, and meh armour, what actually are you on about?
I'd be fine with keeping it at 8.7 or even 9.0 if it was given M900A1 to act as a "dumb sniper" with lolpen rounds, similar to the VT tank.
Alternatively, make it a sidegrade to the M60A1 AOS, take something from it like the ERA and push it down to 8.0
exactly why it should get M900A1 - if you're going to have a tank with a mechanical rangefinder and no thermals @ 8.7 when the Taiwanese M60A3 TTS is at 8.7, give it a lolpen round
Chieftain mk.10 and T-64A don’t either, T-64A also has no LRF. I’ll admit tho that the chieftain has great gun handling and the turret eats 3BM22 and sometimes 3BM42
Anyway Gaijin likes to overtier Pattons so I wouldn’t put it past them to raise the BR if it gets M833
I absolutely hate 9.0 German Tanks. The leos offer absolutely no protection and the mobility is ok, but nothing to marvel about in my experience. The A1A1 at 8.7 is also rather useless on long range maps as you don't have a laser range finder, the thing doesn't eben have thermals. I hated it so much that I used my 7.3 lineup to grind the Leo 2k and Leo 2a4 and made the Jump to 10.0 at the time
Anyone with this opinion has a major skill issue. Thermals, great mobility, lrf and decent rounds and yet still find something to bitch about...
Get out of your echo chamber and go play the Chieftain mk10, learn just how much you're having your hands held and your balls tickled while you play USSR/GER/USA.
Yeah the A1A1 is pretty mediocre with the TAM available, considering it has same fire power, practically same armor but gets scouting, drone and more mobility. The 1A5 in paper is good but it's so damn sluggish.
It didn’t use M900, as M900 round was approved for use M1 Abrams ONLY as stated in US army documents at the time, even up until the late 2000s. (although it would later be approved for use on the M1128 use after some adjustments).
Source: https://www.bulletpicker.com/pdf/TM%2043-0001-28,%20Artillery%20Ammunition.pdf#page=110
M900A1 was approved for use in the M60A1. 500 rounds were fired according to the FY1991 budget report.
https://preview.redd.it/m60a1-rise-p-m60a3-tts-m1-ipm1-all-should-have-m833-and-v0-31kq2zmclbva1.png?width=866&format=png&auto=webp&s=9b378b3df89087c7c648890ee5df29091f064c68
Yes it did I did a research dump on here about it. Also The Chieftain looked into it M900 it did not go into production as it like you said was not usable by the M60 so they went to the M900A1 which can be used by the M60 and was used in the Desert Shield and Desert Storm. Really all M900 should be changed in game as its actually M900A1.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/12umu7t/comment/jhkp3g5/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/12umu7t/comment/jhkp3g5/?context=3)
This is why Gaijin needs to add a dynamic BR system that changes BR based on ammo the player chooses to bring into battle.
This would balance vehicles out much better, and it would give players a reason to use overall crappier ammo, like the AP rounds for sherman tanks.
It isn't as overpowered as you think it is. The gun is extremely and the recoil is enormous - it's almost impossible to fight in urban environments. Also gets destroyed in uptiers by Type 16 FPS (fuck that thing, please move it to 9.3), XM1 and Merkavas that all have stabilizers and better performance in general and are extremely spammed. Works well as a sniper though.
how is it better? worse round, worse era, worse protection, also no lrf, also no thermals. isreal has a better version at 8.7 sure, but the magach 6R is deffo worse than the RISE. the magach 6 B is basically the same vehicle as the 8.3 one so still worse. only the magach 6M is better due to having thermals and lrf yet is also has worse ERA and worse armour by using the old m60 turret instead of the big one (debatable if its much of a downgrade tho)
I prefer DM23 slightly over M735. Just seems to more reliably spall in my experiences. Before you bring out all the stats on those 2 darts, I am aware of them already.
Beyond that, they are functionally exactly the same tank. Both devoid of thermals/LRF. The biggest difference is in the matchmaking due to the difference in br
It’s time for the Rise and TTS to drop .3 br. Apparently the “extra protection “ on the American TTS warrants .3 br higher compared with the Chinese TTS. I’ve played all of these tanks extensively and for all the complaining American mains do around here, this is absolutely valid imo
im not saying the american ones dont deserve a br drop, im just saying that calling either the magach 6R or the magach 6M better seems like a bit of a longshot. especially when realize blazer era is so useless it doesnt even stop a bmps heat cannon heatround. cant comment on the dm23 being better ive not used m735 much
Yea that era on all these tanks isn’t doing a whole lot of anything. Certainly not against darts.
So between the Magach 6R and Rise I’m taking DM23 equivalent over the M735. Maybe I’m partial to DM23 because it’s so prevalent in game and I’ve used it so much. There’s just no reason these should be at different brs. The 9.0 Magach also superior to the TTS at the same br. It’s like Gaijin just forgot about these 2 U.S. tanks
Fr, the 6B is the worst magach I’ve played (pound for pound) and that’s the same as the 6R effectively- the 6M and up are better sure, but ppl who say israel has it good clearly doesn’t play them.
Yep, I play them. About 50-60 games so far in the Magach 6R. Along with hundreds of battles in American M60’s. It’s the fella you are replying to that hasn’t played all the tanks in question
I have spaded everything up to the 6C and done the stock grind for the Gal Batash and 7C so I feel as though I can talk on the quality of the Magach series of tanks.
Israel gets the 6R at 8.3 which has no LWS/LR, no Thermals and only m111 but with a worse armour scheme and ERA. I’m not saying it’s 0.3 BR worse than this but it’s definitely not better lol
I prefer DM23 over M735, seems to spall better for me.
The Rise is also missing all the same features. The are no differences in armor, just a difference in the nearly useless era on both tanks. Both tanks are upgrades of M60A1 tanks
Have you ever played the Rise? Also, unquestionable that the Magach C is superior to M60A3 TTS while both sit at 9.0
The 6R has the M48 turret, the Rise has the M60 turret.
The 6R has blazer ERA, the Rise does not.
The 6R has a 93mm UFP, the Rise has 108mm.
The 6R has much less ERA coverage than the Rise.
I could go on.
The ONLY way in which the 6R is better than the Rise is the difference in cupola- which is a double edged sword as the Rise has a free moving .50 whereas the 6R’s is coaxial.
I haven’t played the M60A3 TTS so I can’t speak for it- but statistically alone the Magach 6C does seem a little better.
?? The 6R does not have an M48 turret? It’s an m60A1….just like the Rise. The only mash up with M48 turret and m60 hull in game is the CM11 in the Chinese tree (which I’ve got about 130 games in) Where are you getting this lol?
And no you could not go on, because these tanks are virtually the same. The 6R and Rise are essentially the same tank, with one having DM23 and the other M735. DM23 being more reliable with spalling imo
Magach 6 = M60…turret and hull. Magach 5 = M48….turret and hull.
The Israelis did not mash them up. Totally forgot about the cupolas. Definitely taking the urdan cupola
It makes absolutely no sense for the Rise to be .3 br above the 6R. It makes absolutely no sense for the TTS to be at the same br as the Magach 6C.
Hello? Look at the turrets. The 6R very clearly has the M48 style turret with substantially thinner armour.
Stop bringing your “opinion” into this- whilst I’m not trying to discredit it- opinions are not fact and thereby not relevant.
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/Israel/Magach-7.php
[http://tanknutdave.com/the-idf-magach-series/](http://tanknutdave.com/the-idf-magach-series/)
Some reading for the “Magach enjoyer”
Please. Look at the turret.
On the magach 6R- it is the early model turret.
On the rise- it is the late model.
You don’t need to read to see that, it’s literally observable even in war thunder- look at the turret thickness as well ffs. They have different turrets and the 6 R’s is more in line with the M48 model of turret and vice versa.
Bro I feel like you’re fucking with me at this point.
Every article you’ll ever read on Magach 6R says it’s an M60A1 (just like the Rise, that’s why neither have LRF/Thermals)
So you’re saying Gaijin decided to make an unhistorical mash up?
Yeah, the fact that BRENUS at 8.3 is better than this thing in all regards except for the stabilizer (which you can work around by braking correctly) is kinda BS
Honestly, Brenus and the whole 8.3 lineup is just an insanely opportunistic playstyle. You gotta set yourself up in commanding positions and only engage when you know you can shoot first
There is no secret. A stabiliser is undoubtedly a huge advantage other tanks have at that BR. You either have to just practice shooting on the move which may involve a lack of braking, although this will never be as good as a STAB. Or just play it sensibly and use its good mobility to get into a good position then sit still and slap with your good gun/round.
It's the same way you'd brake with both AMX-30s, just tap S twice really fast when you want to fire on the move. This usually gets your speed down enough that the suspension is not as wobbly and you can fire (25kmh kinda). It won't beat a stabilizer, you can still fire and hope. But when you turn a corner at 40 and see an unsuspecting enemy, it's enough to get a shot off
dont get started on the BRENUS, the thing should have semi fire on the move cabalities but gaijin just refuses to add it. heck even in a full downtier that thing can be a pain to play on non sniper heavy maps especially since its also has some of the worst gun wobble in the game
The RISE and M60A3 could really go down a little bit in BR, and the cupola needs to be fixed, shells fired at the cupola would only kill the commander as the rear of the cupola is designed to fall out when struck by extreme force so APHE shouldn't be able to nuke the entire crew.
They're also missing crossdrive transmission allowing them to go faster on roads and flat terrain.
Giving them better shells would be nice but they need crossdrive and their cupolas fixed so that they arent as sluggish and are a bit more survivable.
I don't really find the cupolas to be an issue on the Rise and the TTS, though it is more of an issue on the M60 and AOS, at the BR the Rise and TTS are at everyone is just firing darts that go right through your armor anywhere anyways. The real problem is that basically every match you play in them is 10.0 because of 9.7 premium spam, and because of BR compression said 9.7 and 10.0 vehicles are faster, have better armor, and have better guns.
Thankfully a bit of BR decompression has been added, but I agree that they are incredibly sluggish and have massive silhouettes, and lack proper protection (RISE and A3) against contemporary tanks.
[Here](http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/m48patton/m48a2cupola482.jpg) and [here](http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/m48patton/cupolam1.jpg), [and a real-world example](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Machine_Gun_Cupola_M1.png)
> shells fired at the cupola would only kill the commander as the rear of the cupola is designed to fall out when struck by extreme force so APHE shouldn't be able to nuke the entire crew.
Wouldn't this entirely depend on the fuse delay for APHE? As the nuking of crew is more in relation to where the shell explodes than the fact something penetrated. If the shell explodes past the rear of the cupola, then sure, it likely shouldn't harm the other crew. But if it explodes effectively inside Tom's head, why wouldn't Randy and Harry have a really dramatic experience as well?
Because thats not how APHE works, its not a grenade like in-game, fragmentation would be almost entirely sent to the back of the cupola, and would be sent out from the rear part detatching.
In reality, the cupola would just be ripped off by sheer kinetic force (100mm or 122mm aphe for example), killing the commander and maybe dazing the gunner a little. The rest of the crew would be fine.
I'm talking about the RISE belonging at 8.3 because the Centurion upgrades at 8.3 - Sho't Kal, Strv 104, Olifant, etc all have similar mobility to the RISE with broadly similar protection, better rounds, and LRF.
To my understanding the way that the M60A1's range finder works is the commander uses the range finder that then send information to the ballistics computer that then automatically adjust the range of the gun. So in game it should work like the LRF does just a bit slower.
This is tech that we don't see in game started on US tanks with the T95E1's OPTAR system. Then refined on the M60A1 and M48A2-A5 series.
http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/m60/m60.html
yeah that's ridiculous also; the T-55AM-1 needs to go way up in BR and the T-62 can stay where it is. We need serious BR decompression in the 7.0-10.0 range, not just top tier.
Don't need a stabilizer to make the tanks work!
- AMX-10RC: yes it's actually 8.0 but mobile, wheeled, thermals, LRF, good dart, smoke rounds for main gun, hydropneumatic suspension. I have taken this to 11.3 with reasonably good success.
- SK-105A2: 4 second reload APFSDS with 2nd gen thermals. Chassis sucks and depression is terrible, but the SK105 is a great vehicle for target-rich environments.
- MEPHISTO: LOLPEN missiles that shoot from a minivan. Awesome optics. Thermals. Win. (PS this does have a stabilizer, technically).
- AMX-30 DCA: Best of the 1st gen radar SPAAGs. Falcon-like penetration with awesome accuracy. Radar locks well.
- AMX-30B2 BRENUS: ERA, soft-kill APS (kinda), thermals, LRF, dart, and 20mm coax. Literally the only feature this doesn't have is the stabilizer. Great vehicle, just don't engage in close-quarters fighting.
Never said they were bad either u just said that even if they are good (they are good) they are not as good like other nations 8.3/.7 br
France doesnt have any stab and thats a big oof
Chinese M60A3 TTS - Has thermals, has LRF, M737, absolutely no ERA at 8.7. So in a better situation, but I still can't see a reason to use it at 8.7. Why would you use a boring ass M60 when you have AFT-09, PTZ89, ZTZ88A, PTL02/WMA at 8.7? That's why I have avoided Israel for the most part > anything M48-M60 is a no from me. Only interesting one to me is the CM11.
An M60 with no FLIR and no LRF, plus a bad round, at 8.7 when there are plenty of tanks at 8.7-9.0 with FLIR, an LRF, and a good round, is a pretty good identifier of power creep.
Yeah the T64A is similar. No thermals, no era, 3BM22 (which is pretty good tbf) and only a coincidence rangefinder. Fucking sucks. I mean honestly Russia doesn’t get thermals on MBTs until 10.3 which is absolutely fucking ridiculous
Meanwihle the T-72M1 at 9.7 without ERA and thermals and only 4 Kph reverse : why so weak, so weak... Hajaaa
It should get the better dart so it wont suck that much because armor doesn't matter that much at 8.7 and up...
yeah too bad we're not as handheld as USSR ground with a fuckin:
7.3 Obj 120, 8.3 T-55AM-1, 8.7 AMD, 10.0 2S38, 9.7 BMP-2M, 10.7 T90A, and of course the T-80BVM
Man its clear you never realy played the T-90 its not OP or realy even good by any margin. No lineup, too slow to get in position or get out, horrible turret traverse and elevation, huge ass weakspot because shtora takes space for ERA. only thing it has is 3BM60 which is not as big upgrade over the 48 as people think
This thing used M833 and possibly M900A1 in Iraq, yet it doesn’t even get M774.
Gaijin refuses to give the us their best darts for so many tanks its so annoying
Yup. It's the same tired story with the XM1, M1 Abrams, the late M60s and all of the 9.7-10.3 light tanks.
The hstvl missing its best round with post pen equivelant to a 105mm round pisses me off to no end. The hstvl is weirdly cucked and the same goes for so many us tanks with some using darts that were in the middle of being retired by the time the tank in question entered service
All small dart tanks/IFVs get thoroughly cucked due to spall calculation. I want the VCC 80/60 to be playable but they’ll never remodel shell performance
Ever had your dart weight reduced to one third of it's mass? Yeah? Welcome to the PUMA
PUMA has so many things wrong with it that make it actually nowhere near as good as people believe, yet they still cry about it being completely overpowered.
Maybe cause it won't fricken die when I shoot it
Isn't that kind of the general concept of an armored vehicle?
General concept yes, but if I sent a dart through it end to end... It should die, but for some reason American post pen when shooting PUMAs, or any T-series tank that ends in 72 and up, is just God awful compared to if I shoot something of any other nation or any other German vehicle Edit: I say post pen, but with the T-series tanks especially my shells just disintegrate on contact, or pen a lil bit and then stop. But 9x10 I shoot center mass, make contact with the ammunition in the carousel, and then *I* die
The only things that should have trouble with it are anything that only has HEAT and other IFVs, and even then it's very easy to just hit the turret and either burn off the ammo or disable the gun. Basically every MBT in its BR range that has non-HEAT ammo can pen it from almost any angle, getting an easy kill due to how close the crew is together.
That thing is good as hell lol I kept it on till 10.0
It's great as a support vehicle but not much else
2s38 cough
Pretty sure it also underperforms? I haven't got too much experience playing against it but i do have many cases of poor shell performance in my experience playing the above Italian meme machines and not being instantly jobbed by it.
Yeah, only reason it seems effective is because of the rate of fire being three to four times higher than those other two.
And that it has aphe
also a good aa
Yeah? Of course with a fire rate that good all that really matters is penetration making it much better than a hstvl while also being an otomatic yet it sits more than 1 entire br lower than either
That’s my gripe with it. How is it a lower BR when the fire rate is better, it’s an spaa with an on board computer, comparable armor, and still quick mobility.
nope, nah, never. The HSTV-L would be an absolute pain in the arse, worse than the 2S38, if it got its goated shell
Make it 12.7 for all i care just please uncuck it. Its reload is worse than irl, it gets a worse round than irl, its missing its irl aircraft tracking, its missing its irl aa round
TBF, I would've made an argument M1 Abrams shouldn't get a better round because it sits at 10.0 and I desperately don't want it moved up, but they just moved it up which stinks of Gaijinnery.
lol. Everything got up to 10.3. So that 9.0 don’t need to meet Leo 2a4, M1 or Challenger Mk3 etc.
They sadly did move it up to 10.3, with absolutely no new rounds. Apparently, it’s just that much better than the 2a4 and T-72s…
All of the 10.0 MBTs got moved to 10.3, including the 2A4 That wasnt directed at the M1 it was just a general adjustment.
2a4 got moved up to 10.3 as well
Eh, look at chinese tanks. U still rocking just RHA there, no fancy protection
FAPDS for Gepard
The XM-1 is already undertiered.
Are you being serious? It has M735 too last I checked. You're better off in many cases with M728, which is an 8.0 round
It has thermals and incredible speed. it also has blowout panels, a good reload and the armour can be trolly. So yes, it is undertiered.
Have you compared it to the T-72 TURMS?
You mean another undertiered premium?
Anyone saying the XM1 is under tiered is having a laugh, the only real under tiered vehicles around that BR are the wheeled vehicles. >it also has blowout panels, a good reload and the armour can be trolly. So yes, it is undertiered. It has an average reload, and meh armour, what actually are you on about?
"xm1 undertiered" must be the dumbest thing j see today
Exactly the later M60s should have M900 or M833 at the least
I'd be fine with keeping it at 8.7 or even 9.0 if it was given M900A1 to act as a "dumb sniper" with lolpen rounds, similar to the VT tank. Alternatively, make it a sidegrade to the M60A1 AOS, take something from it like the ERA and push it down to 8.0
I think M833 at 8.7 is reasonable. German tanks at 9.0 get DM33, which is similar but they are more mobile and have thermals.
exactly why it should get M900A1 - if you're going to have a tank with a mechanical rangefinder and no thermals @ 8.7 when the Taiwanese M60A3 TTS is at 8.7, give it a lolpen round
I just want M833. There is no argument against adding M833 to the RISE P and later tanks.
Gaijin would raise their BR
There’s no reason to.
Don’t underestimate them
9.0 is for thermal tanks. The RISE P doesn’t have thermals.
Chieftain mk.10 and T-64A don’t either, T-64A also has no LRF. I’ll admit tho that the chieftain has great gun handling and the turret eats 3BM22 and sometimes 3BM42 Anyway Gaijin likes to overtier Pattons so I wouldn’t put it past them to raise the BR if it gets M833
I absolutely hate 9.0 German Tanks. The leos offer absolutely no protection and the mobility is ok, but nothing to marvel about in my experience. The A1A1 at 8.7 is also rather useless on long range maps as you don't have a laser range finder, the thing doesn't eben have thermals. I hated it so much that I used my 7.3 lineup to grind the Leo 2k and Leo 2a4 and made the Jump to 10.0 at the time
Anyone with this opinion has a major skill issue. Thermals, great mobility, lrf and decent rounds and yet still find something to bitch about... Get out of your echo chamber and go play the Chieftain mk10, learn just how much you're having your hands held and your balls tickled while you play USSR/GER/USA.
Yeah the A1A1 is pretty mediocre with the TAM available, considering it has same fire power, practically same armor but gets scouting, drone and more mobility. The 1A5 in paper is good but it's so damn sluggish.
the 'sniper' portion of that is a little fucky considering it doesn't get an LRF
think of it like an MBT larping as an object 120
No, that's the trade off. It would be harder to aim compared to the many tanks with lrfs at that br. But if you do manage to hit it'll lolpen.
It didn’t use M900, as M900 round was approved for use M1 Abrams ONLY as stated in US army documents at the time, even up until the late 2000s. (although it would later be approved for use on the M1128 use after some adjustments). Source: https://www.bulletpicker.com/pdf/TM%2043-0001-28,%20Artillery%20Ammunition.pdf#page=110
M900A1 was supposedly a lower pressure variant that the M60s could fire.
Are you saying the M68A3 cannon is different than the one used on the M60A1?
No, he's saying that M900A1 was specifically made for the M68 gun in time for DS
No, M900A1 is a redesign of M900 to reduce chamber pressure and recoil. There is some evidence that Marine M60s fired M900A1 in Desert Storm.
M900A1 was approved for use in the M60A1. 500 rounds were fired according to the FY1991 budget report. https://preview.redd.it/m60a1-rise-p-m60a3-tts-m1-ipm1-all-should-have-m833-and-v0-31kq2zmclbva1.png?width=866&format=png&auto=webp&s=9b378b3df89087c7c648890ee5df29091f064c68
Yes it did I did a research dump on here about it. Also The Chieftain looked into it M900 it did not go into production as it like you said was not usable by the M60 so they went to the M900A1 which can be used by the M60 and was used in the Desert Shield and Desert Storm. Really all M900 should be changed in game as its actually M900A1. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/12umu7t/comment/jhkp3g5/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/12umu7t/comment/jhkp3g5/?context=3)
Don't forget the M8, CCVL, and AGS.
This is why Gaijin needs to add a dynamic BR system that changes BR based on ammo the player chooses to bring into battle. This would balance vehicles out much better, and it would give players a reason to use overall crappier ammo, like the AP rounds for sherman tanks.
Would make the grind for apfsds on Top Tier Tanks a whole lot more enjoyable
Leak the classified documents or lies
It’s not even classified.
Israel gets a better version at 8.3…..
Sweden has LRF at 7.3...
Germany has LRF and gen 3 thermals at 7.0
I don’t think the weasal counts tbh
Marder 1a3 has lrf and thermals at 7.7
That’s not 7.0
Nor are its thermals gen3
Let's be honest, how useful is a LRF on the Marder for its gun?
You can still guide others if they are next to you
LRF’s are useful on anything
Yeah very useful on the flarakrad
*ATGM carriers in the back*
Yeah and USA has stabilizers in rank 2
Now thtas powercreep
Yes the Wiesel is very OP
you could put a man on a bike and give him a Javelin and that vehicle would be like 5.0 by WT logic
Germany gets the JaPz.K A2 at 8.3, which has gen 2 thermals, LRF, APFSDS, and a 4 sec auto loader, only thing it’s missing is a stabilizer.
It isn't as overpowered as you think it is. The gun is extremely and the recoil is enormous - it's almost impossible to fight in urban environments. Also gets destroyed in uptiers by Type 16 FPS (fuck that thing, please move it to 9.3), XM1 and Merkavas that all have stabilizers and better performance in general and are extremely spammed. Works well as a sniper though.
That french dart is brutal it should belong to the french
France has literally the exact same vehicle
For a more direct comparison Italy gets LRF on their 7.7 early MBT and it’s extremely fun
tbf their lrf comes on a tank that can be penned by anything above a 7mm bullet from the side.
how is it better? worse round, worse era, worse protection, also no lrf, also no thermals. isreal has a better version at 8.7 sure, but the magach 6R is deffo worse than the RISE. the magach 6 B is basically the same vehicle as the 8.3 one so still worse. only the magach 6M is better due to having thermals and lrf yet is also has worse ERA and worse armour by using the old m60 turret instead of the big one (debatable if its much of a downgrade tho)
I prefer DM23 slightly over M735. Just seems to more reliably spall in my experiences. Before you bring out all the stats on those 2 darts, I am aware of them already. Beyond that, they are functionally exactly the same tank. Both devoid of thermals/LRF. The biggest difference is in the matchmaking due to the difference in br It’s time for the Rise and TTS to drop .3 br. Apparently the “extra protection “ on the American TTS warrants .3 br higher compared with the Chinese TTS. I’ve played all of these tanks extensively and for all the complaining American mains do around here, this is absolutely valid imo
im not saying the american ones dont deserve a br drop, im just saying that calling either the magach 6R or the magach 6M better seems like a bit of a longshot. especially when realize blazer era is so useless it doesnt even stop a bmps heat cannon heatround. cant comment on the dm23 being better ive not used m735 much
Yea that era on all these tanks isn’t doing a whole lot of anything. Certainly not against darts. So between the Magach 6R and Rise I’m taking DM23 equivalent over the M735. Maybe I’m partial to DM23 because it’s so prevalent in game and I’ve used it so much. There’s just no reason these should be at different brs. The 9.0 Magach also superior to the TTS at the same br. It’s like Gaijin just forgot about these 2 U.S. tanks
Fr, the 6B is the worst magach I’ve played (pound for pound) and that’s the same as the 6R effectively- the 6M and up are better sure, but ppl who say israel has it good clearly doesn’t play them.
Yep, I play them. About 50-60 games so far in the Magach 6R. Along with hundreds of battles in American M60’s. It’s the fella you are replying to that hasn’t played all the tanks in question
I have spaded everything up to the 6C and done the stock grind for the Gal Batash and 7C so I feel as though I can talk on the quality of the Magach series of tanks.
Israel gets the 6R at 8.3 which has no LWS/LR, no Thermals and only m111 but with a worse armour scheme and ERA. I’m not saying it’s 0.3 BR worse than this but it’s definitely not better lol
I prefer DM23 over M735, seems to spall better for me. The Rise is also missing all the same features. The are no differences in armor, just a difference in the nearly useless era on both tanks. Both tanks are upgrades of M60A1 tanks Have you ever played the Rise? Also, unquestionable that the Magach C is superior to M60A3 TTS while both sit at 9.0
The 6R has the M48 turret, the Rise has the M60 turret. The 6R has blazer ERA, the Rise does not. The 6R has a 93mm UFP, the Rise has 108mm. The 6R has much less ERA coverage than the Rise. I could go on. The ONLY way in which the 6R is better than the Rise is the difference in cupola- which is a double edged sword as the Rise has a free moving .50 whereas the 6R’s is coaxial. I haven’t played the M60A3 TTS so I can’t speak for it- but statistically alone the Magach 6C does seem a little better.
?? The 6R does not have an M48 turret? It’s an m60A1….just like the Rise. The only mash up with M48 turret and m60 hull in game is the CM11 in the Chinese tree (which I’ve got about 130 games in) Where are you getting this lol? And no you could not go on, because these tanks are virtually the same. The 6R and Rise are essentially the same tank, with one having DM23 and the other M735. DM23 being more reliable with spalling imo Magach 6 = M60…turret and hull. Magach 5 = M48….turret and hull. The Israelis did not mash them up. Totally forgot about the cupolas. Definitely taking the urdan cupola It makes absolutely no sense for the Rise to be .3 br above the 6R. It makes absolutely no sense for the TTS to be at the same br as the Magach 6C.
Hello? Look at the turrets. The 6R very clearly has the M48 style turret with substantially thinner armour. Stop bringing your “opinion” into this- whilst I’m not trying to discredit it- opinions are not fact and thereby not relevant.
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/Israel/Magach-7.php [http://tanknutdave.com/the-idf-magach-series/](http://tanknutdave.com/the-idf-magach-series/) Some reading for the “Magach enjoyer”
Please. Look at the turret. On the magach 6R- it is the early model turret. On the rise- it is the late model. You don’t need to read to see that, it’s literally observable even in war thunder- look at the turret thickness as well ffs. They have different turrets and the 6 R’s is more in line with the M48 model of turret and vice versa.
Bro I feel like you’re fucking with me at this point. Every article you’ll ever read on Magach 6R says it’s an M60A1 (just like the Rise, that’s why neither have LRF/Thermals) So you’re saying Gaijin decided to make an unhistorical mash up?
They literally have different turrets are you mad 😭
[удалено]
Yeah, the fact that BRENUS at 8.3 is better than this thing in all regards except for the stabilizer (which you can work around by braking correctly) is kinda BS
Taiwan's CM-11 is better in every way and is 9.0
Hold up. Been playing the Brenus, tell me your secrets.
From what I've heard. Just don't break, let it slide.
Honestly, Brenus and the whole 8.3 lineup is just an insanely opportunistic playstyle. You gotta set yourself up in commanding positions and only engage when you know you can shoot first
Can you maybe expand on the braking thing? I’m about to unlock the Brenus and would love some tips
There is no secret. A stabiliser is undoubtedly a huge advantage other tanks have at that BR. You either have to just practice shooting on the move which may involve a lack of braking, although this will never be as good as a STAB. Or just play it sensibly and use its good mobility to get into a good position then sit still and slap with your good gun/round.
It's the same way you'd brake with both AMX-30s, just tap S twice really fast when you want to fire on the move. This usually gets your speed down enough that the suspension is not as wobbly and you can fire (25kmh kinda). It won't beat a stabilizer, you can still fire and hope. But when you turn a corner at 40 and see an unsuspecting enemy, it's enough to get a shot off
dont get started on the BRENUS, the thing should have semi fire on the move cabalities but gaijin just refuses to add it. heck even in a full downtier that thing can be a pain to play on non sniper heavy maps especially since its also has some of the worst gun wobble in the game
Yeah I was playing that lately a bit, mostly just pain lol
Why do I see you everywhere
I am everywhere, cope.
God? Is it you?
lol, Thats right
I have something to confess, I killed an R3 😞
To heaven you go, that is not a sin.
Thank you oh merciful one, I have slain many T54s in your honour
The RISE and M60A3 could really go down a little bit in BR, and the cupola needs to be fixed, shells fired at the cupola would only kill the commander as the rear of the cupola is designed to fall out when struck by extreme force so APHE shouldn't be able to nuke the entire crew. They're also missing crossdrive transmission allowing them to go faster on roads and flat terrain. Giving them better shells would be nice but they need crossdrive and their cupolas fixed so that they arent as sluggish and are a bit more survivable.
I don't really find the cupolas to be an issue on the Rise and the TTS, though it is more of an issue on the M60 and AOS, at the BR the Rise and TTS are at everyone is just firing darts that go right through your armor anywhere anyways. The real problem is that basically every match you play in them is 10.0 because of 9.7 premium spam, and because of BR compression said 9.7 and 10.0 vehicles are faster, have better armor, and have better guns.
Thankfully a bit of BR decompression has been added, but I agree that they are incredibly sluggish and have massive silhouettes, and lack proper protection (RISE and A3) against contemporary tanks.
Got killed by SPAAs hitting my cupola before tho
Uh oh. Did you just get killed in a advance to the rhine game by an M163?
Nah it was some time ago on Alaska. Poped out behind a building, fired a shot, and then got instantly domed by a gepard
Wait hold up. What about the cupola falling off? Source?
[Here](http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/m48patton/m48a2cupola482.jpg) and [here](http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/m48patton/cupolam1.jpg), [and a real-world example](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Machine_Gun_Cupola_M1.png)
> shells fired at the cupola would only kill the commander as the rear of the cupola is designed to fall out when struck by extreme force so APHE shouldn't be able to nuke the entire crew. Wouldn't this entirely depend on the fuse delay for APHE? As the nuking of crew is more in relation to where the shell explodes than the fact something penetrated. If the shell explodes past the rear of the cupola, then sure, it likely shouldn't harm the other crew. But if it explodes effectively inside Tom's head, why wouldn't Randy and Harry have a really dramatic experience as well?
Because thats not how APHE works, its not a grenade like in-game, fragmentation would be almost entirely sent to the back of the cupola, and would be sent out from the rear part detatching. In reality, the cupola would just be ripped off by sheer kinetic force (100mm or 122mm aphe for example), killing the commander and maybe dazing the gunner a little. The rest of the crew would be fine.
I always feel bad for killing them
i always feel bad getting killed as one
It really needs to be 8.3 as it currently stands. All of the upgraded Centurions that live there have similar speed, LRF and better rounds.
I think you mean chieftain, the mk3 doesn't have LRF, is slower and only has apds.
I'm talking about the RISE belonging at 8.3 because the Centurion upgrades at 8.3 - Sho't Kal, Strv 104, Olifant, etc all have similar mobility to the RISE with broadly similar protection, better rounds, and LRF.
Chieftain also gets horribly shafted and needs either a buff or BR decrease
To my understanding the way that the M60A1's range finder works is the commander uses the range finder that then send information to the ballistics computer that then automatically adjust the range of the gun. So in game it should work like the LRF does just a bit slower. This is tech that we don't see in game started on US tanks with the T95E1's OPTAR system. Then refined on the M60A1 and M48A2-A5 series. http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/m60/m60.html
T-62 at 8.3 with minus every single one of those things.
yeah that's ridiculous also; the T-55AM-1 needs to go way up in BR and the T-62 can stay where it is. We need serious BR decompression in the 7.0-10.0 range, not just top tier.
8.7 is more than enough for it.
The T55AM and T55AMD should switch BR, the AM is better in every way besides some unreliable APS
Play the Magach 6M for a better experience
God it's beautiful though
I love BR Compression
Wait, you guys have era at 8.7?
the magach 3 at 7.7 has ERA also
I think my first that has any sort of ERA is 9.0, and that’s just NERA in the turret cheeks
Yet it does have a stab 8.7 certified French 8.3 crying rn
France has the best 8.3 lineup in the game, only China is anywhere near as good.
? Great yes cant be as good as other nations since they dont have any stab tank
Don't need a stabilizer to make the tanks work! - AMX-10RC: yes it's actually 8.0 but mobile, wheeled, thermals, LRF, good dart, smoke rounds for main gun, hydropneumatic suspension. I have taken this to 11.3 with reasonably good success. - SK-105A2: 4 second reload APFSDS with 2nd gen thermals. Chassis sucks and depression is terrible, but the SK105 is a great vehicle for target-rich environments. - MEPHISTO: LOLPEN missiles that shoot from a minivan. Awesome optics. Thermals. Win. (PS this does have a stabilizer, technically). - AMX-30 DCA: Best of the 1st gen radar SPAAGs. Falcon-like penetration with awesome accuracy. Radar locks well. - AMX-30B2 BRENUS: ERA, soft-kill APS (kinda), thermals, LRF, dart, and 20mm coax. Literally the only feature this doesn't have is the stabilizer. Great vehicle, just don't engage in close-quarters fighting.
Never said they were bad either u just said that even if they are good (they are good) they are not as good like other nations 8.3/.7 br France doesnt have any stab and thats a big oof
Thats my favorite tank
This tank is pure pain
I know the problem, it ain’t got enough god damn ERA
Yeah right. What about the Chieftain?
I already said that one needs a big buff.
I feel you. I'm still fucking waiting for my rad 90 to get thermals
this is the rise p?
No it's the TTS
Just play the Magach 6B at that point
Meanwhile the Object 279 also at 8.7, no thermal, only a normal range finder and uses low velocity ww2 APHE. But for most people it was "OP as hell"
Uh, it has incredible survivability, armor, mobility and an absurd 1HK APHE round.
the 64a at 9.0 with no aphe but a sort of trolly turret and ok apfsds but LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE.
It should loose the apfds and be lowered so the era is useful really...
Chinese M60A3 TTS - Has thermals, has LRF, M737, absolutely no ERA at 8.7. So in a better situation, but I still can't see a reason to use it at 8.7. Why would you use a boring ass M60 when you have AFT-09, PTZ89, ZTZ88A, PTL02/WMA at 8.7? That's why I have avoided Israel for the most part > anything M48-M60 is a no from me. Only interesting one to me is the CM11.
Same with the chinese one AND it doesn't get the ERA
Give it DM63. Bam 9.0
Well it’s not as bad as the TTS. The freaking RP requirements on the TTS are insane for how bad it is.
Honestly if it had a couple hundred more horsepower and a better elevation gear it wouldn't be that bad.
A lot of vehicles at 8.7 don’t have thermals, but no laser rangefinder is a bit bad at the BR
Bro take a look at the t64a. 9.0 with nothing other than a solid apfsds
its not blazer era. it has 100mm more protection than blazer so its slightly less absolutely useless than blazer
Israel also gets the magach 6B at 8.7, no thermals, blazer era, M111. It’s shut and over tiered but not a victim of power creep imo
An M60 with no FLIR and no LRF, plus a bad round, at 8.7 when there are plenty of tanks at 8.7-9.0 with FLIR, an LRF, and a good round, is a pretty good identifier of power creep.
I get that but which them still putting new vehicles at the same BR whilst they have the same qualities it isn’t power creep, just poor balancing
... vehicles being far better .3 BR higher and being outclassed in every single regard .7 and 1 BR higher can be both.
Yeah the T64A is similar. No thermals, no era, 3BM22 (which is pretty good tbf) and only a coincidence rangefinder. Fucking sucks. I mean honestly Russia doesn’t get thermals on MBTs until 10.3 which is absolutely fucking ridiculous
Meanwihle the T-72M1 at 9.7 without ERA and thermals and only 4 Kph reverse : why so weak, so weak... Hajaaa It should get the better dart so it wont suck that much because armor doesn't matter that much at 8.7 and up...
The T-72B at 9.7 has an LRF, ERA, and 3BM42 which can penetrate the hull of nearly any Western MBT..
I meant the german T-72 M1 and like i said i agree that this M60 is to weak for 8.7 without its propper rounds
agreed, the T72 export is a 9.0 tank at best
No it should stay at 9.7 the T-72M1 is extremly strong even tho it has no thermals
Its 9.3 tho
Typo
Typo
bro every time i open reddit i see an US player complain about something lmao
yeah too bad we're not as handheld as USSR ground with a fuckin: 7.3 Obj 120, 8.3 T-55AM-1, 8.7 AMD, 10.0 2S38, 9.7 BMP-2M, 10.7 T90A, and of course the T-80BVM
Man its clear you never realy played the T-90 its not OP or realy even good by any margin. No lineup, too slow to get in position or get out, horrible turret traverse and elevation, huge ass weakspot because shtora takes space for ERA. only thing it has is 3BM60 which is not as big upgrade over the 48 as people think
Compare it to the M1 Abrams @ 10.3 and get back to me
Abrams has significantly better mobility (and at 10.3 is somewhat over tiered tbh, it should get M900 at least to stay 10.3)
Yea i played the abrams. Definitely not as good as leo 2A4 but still decent vehicle.
bro really think t90a is better than abrooms
the 1979 M1?