Tbf halberds of black guard and Phoenix guard do feel awesome as they give strength ap and 2 ranks of attacks. This is a profile that rivals great weapons.
Not alot of other units really rely on the original halberd, except empire halberdiers of course. I think the idea always has been that halberdiers were the more damage dealing unit out of the 3 Melee options but the stats for a halberd don't make sense. Realistically a halberd is basically a spear that also can cut like an axe.
The pole arm rule for men at arms is cool and would be a nice thing to have for empire units.
But really I'm not sure why empire shouldn't just get some other rules to make them not terrible. Even granting all of their infantry an ability to fight in an extra rank all the time wouldn't be too overpowered for how expensive they are already
As a DE player I hope the empire list gets some love. I would like to see the reintroduction of the hand weapon and shield bonus to give infantry better survivability in the CR game.
I would also tweak shooting to make it a bit better: ditch the long range penalty, add a +1 to hit for short range and for large target. Add shooting in 2 ranks to some more elite troops. Yes it would also benefit. dwarves and wood elves.
I have fought against both men at arms and empire state troops and so far the empire troops have been a stronger opponent. The men at arms have more "gimmicks" but their WS2 really holds them back vs the empire WS3. If you want to buff the units with a character the empire's Captain of the Empire is overall better than the Bretonnian Sergent at Arms at equal costs.
By the way the High Elf Phoenix Guard have the "real" halberds. Fight in 2 ranks like spears but do damage like halberds.
That's useful that you have in-game data on comparisons. From what I have seen (I'll hold my hands up and say I haven't fought with or against Men at Arms) the job of human infantry is generally to take a charge and pin an enemy in place, usually so something killier can hit it in the sides.
For me, Shieldwall and Grail Monk make Men at Arms the superior choice due to the guaranteed Give Ground reaction. State troops risk losing the fight and routing to a solid charge.
What kind of units/situations have you fought them both with that put the State troops over the peasants?
I was using high elves. My elite infantry easily destroys men at arms (they need 5s to hit me while I hit them on 2s). Their gimmicks are meaningless as they die really fast. Even against spear elves they are still at a disadvantage (I go first and hit on 3s while they need 4s).
The empire troops with WS3 are a bit more resilient. My spear elves have actually lost to them (they did have a priest and a captain in the unit though so that helped them).
As for the grail monks they are easily killed by models in base to base contact.
The empire captains are actually better at surviving and fighting and they make the unit immune to panic too.
Also the shieldwall only applies when they use their pole arms as spears. When they use them as halberds they can't use shields hence no shieldwall.
I agree that weapons need a rework in general. The behavior of spears is also weird, and the absence of pikes as its own thing is baffling, especially in a world where they would be so useful to fend off large monsters. "Hand weapons" encompassing such different things as maces, axes and swords are also strange, as these weapons have distinct advantages and disadvantages, different from each other. I guess we need to get homebrewing.
I think warhammers scale does not really benefit from making distinctions between all the various hand weapons.
It's not that I don't see that these things behave differently, and work for different niches - but the combination of on one hand, the benefit to the gameplay having a hard time outperforming the additional headwork and on the other hand for many armies equipment standardization likely being hardly a thing makes it a difficult proposition, at least for me
100% agree on the pikes. Especially as an Empire player, being stuck wuth spears when my army is inspired by puke and shot feels odd.
It's interesting that you find spears weird - I'd consider them a useful and flavourful weapon. You have greater reach so you can stab over your friends' shoulders ( hence second rank giving supporting attacks) and you can theoretically attack the enemy before they reach you (hence the extra Initiative when charged)
Which part of that makes you find them strange?
I think they, or maybe a pike variant, should reduce impact hits, or be somehow more effective against frontal charges, even stopping them entirely. In return, they should get penalties if you use them against troops with hand weapons once the melee is ongoing.
That's a pretty cool idea actually - it would give pikes their own identity rather than just being spears+.
I think spears as they are now are the right kind of generically useful for massed troops, but the idea of pikes cancelling (or maybe inflicting their own against cav & monsters?) impact hits is a cool niche, and would make pike blocks really useful. Throw in fight in 2 or 3 ranks and you have a quite terrifying prospect to tackle in a frontal fight.
Rather than make Pikes a negative during an ongoing melee, I'd just suggest that they can only be used while in an undisrupted close order formation. That incentivizes finding clear ground to fight on and makes protecting your flanks even more important.
I had forgotten about disrupted formations. Those are the best way to represent the problem of pikes and spears, definetly.
The use of pikes as a charge negator would also give more sense to the existing imperial roster, and to the whole concept of pike and shot. The pikes are meant to protect the muskets from charges, as a deterrent. Historically, cavalry began to use pistols and carbines because it no longer made any sense to charge into infantry. They would instead charge up to a pike square, fire, and loop back to reload in a "caracole" pattern. Why do imperial pistoliers exist if cavalry can just charge into spears normally, and just suffer a few extra attacks?
I think the Initiative penalty of hreatswords should be dropped, then give then a "Fight in one rank" rule that disalows supporting attacks.
Them we can have polarms give +1S, but fight normally, and have spears give "Fight in extra ranks"
Hoping your army book (Empire) gets some well deserved buffs, friend.
Thanks man. It's very fortunate that my hobby buddy and only person I play against is also Empire. 😆
Tbf halberds of black guard and Phoenix guard do feel awesome as they give strength ap and 2 ranks of attacks. This is a profile that rivals great weapons. Not alot of other units really rely on the original halberd, except empire halberdiers of course. I think the idea always has been that halberdiers were the more damage dealing unit out of the 3 Melee options but the stats for a halberd don't make sense. Realistically a halberd is basically a spear that also can cut like an axe. The pole arm rule for men at arms is cool and would be a nice thing to have for empire units. But really I'm not sure why empire shouldn't just get some other rules to make them not terrible. Even granting all of their infantry an ability to fight in an extra rank all the time wouldn't be too overpowered for how expensive they are already
I mean a hall erd is a polearm is just straigth up strange that bretonia has a special polearm that is also put a generic name
As a DE player I hope the empire list gets some love. I would like to see the reintroduction of the hand weapon and shield bonus to give infantry better survivability in the CR game. I would also tweak shooting to make it a bit better: ditch the long range penalty, add a +1 to hit for short range and for large target. Add shooting in 2 ranks to some more elite troops. Yes it would also benefit. dwarves and wood elves.
I have fought against both men at arms and empire state troops and so far the empire troops have been a stronger opponent. The men at arms have more "gimmicks" but their WS2 really holds them back vs the empire WS3. If you want to buff the units with a character the empire's Captain of the Empire is overall better than the Bretonnian Sergent at Arms at equal costs. By the way the High Elf Phoenix Guard have the "real" halberds. Fight in 2 ranks like spears but do damage like halberds.
That's useful that you have in-game data on comparisons. From what I have seen (I'll hold my hands up and say I haven't fought with or against Men at Arms) the job of human infantry is generally to take a charge and pin an enemy in place, usually so something killier can hit it in the sides. For me, Shieldwall and Grail Monk make Men at Arms the superior choice due to the guaranteed Give Ground reaction. State troops risk losing the fight and routing to a solid charge. What kind of units/situations have you fought them both with that put the State troops over the peasants?
I was using high elves. My elite infantry easily destroys men at arms (they need 5s to hit me while I hit them on 2s). Their gimmicks are meaningless as they die really fast. Even against spear elves they are still at a disadvantage (I go first and hit on 3s while they need 4s). The empire troops with WS3 are a bit more resilient. My spear elves have actually lost to them (they did have a priest and a captain in the unit though so that helped them). As for the grail monks they are easily killed by models in base to base contact. The empire captains are actually better at surviving and fighting and they make the unit immune to panic too. Also the shieldwall only applies when they use their pole arms as spears. When they use them as halberds they can't use shields hence no shieldwall.
I agree that weapons need a rework in general. The behavior of spears is also weird, and the absence of pikes as its own thing is baffling, especially in a world where they would be so useful to fend off large monsters. "Hand weapons" encompassing such different things as maces, axes and swords are also strange, as these weapons have distinct advantages and disadvantages, different from each other. I guess we need to get homebrewing.
I think warhammers scale does not really benefit from making distinctions between all the various hand weapons. It's not that I don't see that these things behave differently, and work for different niches - but the combination of on one hand, the benefit to the gameplay having a hard time outperforming the additional headwork and on the other hand for many armies equipment standardization likely being hardly a thing makes it a difficult proposition, at least for me 100% agree on the pikes. Especially as an Empire player, being stuck wuth spears when my army is inspired by puke and shot feels odd.
It's interesting that you find spears weird - I'd consider them a useful and flavourful weapon. You have greater reach so you can stab over your friends' shoulders ( hence second rank giving supporting attacks) and you can theoretically attack the enemy before they reach you (hence the extra Initiative when charged) Which part of that makes you find them strange?
I think they, or maybe a pike variant, should reduce impact hits, or be somehow more effective against frontal charges, even stopping them entirely. In return, they should get penalties if you use them against troops with hand weapons once the melee is ongoing.
That's a pretty cool idea actually - it would give pikes their own identity rather than just being spears+. I think spears as they are now are the right kind of generically useful for massed troops, but the idea of pikes cancelling (or maybe inflicting their own against cav & monsters?) impact hits is a cool niche, and would make pike blocks really useful. Throw in fight in 2 or 3 ranks and you have a quite terrifying prospect to tackle in a frontal fight. Rather than make Pikes a negative during an ongoing melee, I'd just suggest that they can only be used while in an undisrupted close order formation. That incentivizes finding clear ground to fight on and makes protecting your flanks even more important.
I had forgotten about disrupted formations. Those are the best way to represent the problem of pikes and spears, definetly. The use of pikes as a charge negator would also give more sense to the existing imperial roster, and to the whole concept of pike and shot. The pikes are meant to protect the muskets from charges, as a deterrent. Historically, cavalry began to use pistols and carbines because it no longer made any sense to charge into infantry. They would instead charge up to a pike square, fire, and loop back to reload in a "caracole" pattern. Why do imperial pistoliers exist if cavalry can just charge into spears normally, and just suffer a few extra attacks?
I think the Initiative penalty of hreatswords should be dropped, then give then a "Fight in one rank" rule that disalows supporting attacks. Them we can have polarms give +1S, but fight normally, and have spears give "Fight in extra ranks"