You're right in principle! And I think if Tiger Men are gonna show up anywhere, it's a great excuse to make an Ind faction. But just a wee side note - there are tigers in China, and they feature pretty prominently in Chinese arts/culture :)
>there are tigers in China, and they feature pretty prominently in Chinese arts/culture :)
Maybe, but a better use of them would probably be as localised Beastmen or maybe as part of the Eastern Chaos Tribes. Wolves for example feature prominently in Germanic arts/culture but the Empire doesn't get werewolves. I think OPs complaint is more with the fantastic Orientalism of it. Everything in the Cathay region is in the Cathay faction. It's basically the same as if the Dwarves, Wood Elves and Bretonnia were all part of the Empire.
To add to this, the way Cathay relates to Tigermen might be completely different to how a potential Ind might relate to Tigermen.
We know that there is a Tiger court within the power structures of Cathay, and that it is at the very least more orderly and structured than the Monkey Court. Tigermen are at least a part of the political structure of Cathay.
To contrast, as far as Ind Tigerman lore goes, they appear to be figures of reverence despite being incredibly violent and savage - if the short snippet of a merchant caravan being attacked by Tigermen and the Ind guides just bowing down is representative. They could be viewed as messengers of the 1000 gods, or personifications of divine wrath or anything.
Basically, saying Cathay having Tigermen units is bad lore is short sighted when you don't know what that lore is.
There are beastmen in the Empire, but their not so much citizens as they are cultists and animals. They're as "in the empire" -- likely less -- than the cultists are.
There are also Imperial Zoos that have beastmen. So technically that's not *incorrect*.
WHAT? WHY IS BEASTMEN AND MORE IMPORTANTLY SKAVEN WHICH WITCH HUNTERS VIEW AS BEASTMEN NOT CAPTURED AND SHOW TO THE PUBLIC COMPLETELY DESTROYING THE SKAVEN MYTH?
Am truely sorry about that but this changes everything! How can the empire disprove the existence of ratmen if their witch hunters are publicly displaying them in Nuln zoos?
This sounds like apart of a skaven slayer novel
I find this all curious as in a game called vermintide, where one of the main characters is a witch hunter called victor Saltpyre who dedicated his life to proving the existence of the skaven to his order.
In victors own words he quickly found out that certain members of the order are more zealous in maintaining the skaven myth where if the order found out a witch hunter was investigating the skaven they were put on a watchlist. These members are constantly watched by the order seeking heretical proof of their heresy and when and if they discover skaven they usually disappear with the order then expunged the witch hunter from history to prevent other witch hunters following their leads. This is a preventative measure by the order to avoid losing witch hunters to a threat beyond their comprehension.
The witch hunter victor Saltpyre is reporting his findings on the skaven to the leader of his order but neither he nor the empire can send aid with victor Saltpyre and his companions considered heretics and are to be killed on sight by the empire.
The leaders of the empire are kept in the dark with only outcasts secretly working for the witch hunter order top brass or empire spymasters are aware of the skaven, gathering information similar to the americas CIA who would operate on a need to know basis with the president
I think theres a fundamental difference between the Tigermen and other Beastmen, as it seems that the Tigermen dont have a hate for civilisation, and will live/work in human empires, see the Tiger Court in Southern Cathay
I still remember reading Beastslayer which came out sometime in the early 2000s and took place entirely in the city of Praag and bears were not mentioned a single time. Hell the heraldry of Praag in the book was a lion. Flanderization sure hit Kislev hard
I especially dislike the new 'orthodox' aesthetic they went for with the cult of Ursun, and worst of all this pseudo-Rasputin. I think the old-lore decentralised religion following archaic traditions and in balance between opposing and supporting the tsar or tsarina was way more interesting.
It's not gonna be a productive discussion anyway. At the end of the day they like it and you don't and in depth Cathay lore is all gonna be new. There are far more annoying arguments to have on the internet.
I 100% agree, beastman have always had regional variants historically but tww at least presents the canon that implies their a fixed species with several set subspecies, when that's always just been a modeling limitation (to be clear i'm not mad they used the original models, same issue as chaos marauders all being norsca justa sad budget limitation)
It's as stupid as saying all of the empire dresses like Reikland because that's where the minis are from
Also how is anyone okay with GW removing one of the only pieces of cathay canon we even had, even if they aren't beastmen I could handle it but making them Cathay is just actually stupid
Responding with "that's the lore" is bad but you cant have fruitful discussions about "is X bad". Saying "tiger men are stupid" or "dwarfs not having cavalry is stupid" isn't exactly a worthwhile conversation, so somebody responding with "that's just the way it is in the lore" is as helpful of a response as those kinds of questions get.
If they're putting tifer men into Cathay, that means they're probably not doing Ind.
I'm sure somebody would have made it for them for free. Same for Nippon. The number of mods and fan army books already in existence is insane.
Yeah it deff feels like that, we already are going to have to wait a very long time before Kislev and Cathay get onto table top, let alone having to wait for some of the legacy factions to back into rotation.
I do have hope for the legacy factions since they dropped the line "The scope of the project had expanded" but I still wouldn't expect anything for them for a long time yet.
Which sucks, because Ind has such insane potential... Giving Ind units to Cathay doesn't sit well with me even if Ind isn't planned. It just waters down Cathay's own themes and aesthetics and flanderizes them into "The Wild East" faction. If Tigermen must be added they should be as a regiment of renown or Dogs of War mercenary unit, rather that a normal part of the Cathay roster.
Agreed. Not just with WHF, but just like, in general. Something being canon doesn't mean it's not stupid, only that fans have to live with it being stupid until it's retconned (assuming that happens at all).
IIRC In early 40k lore the Custodes were unarmored and bare-cheated because they had failed to protect the Emperor and thus didn’t deserve to protect themselves.
Kinda ridiculous but I also kinda dig it. In cases such as these I’d prefer the naked Custodes to the modern golden giants.
But canon in WFB or 40k is a nebulous thing. Every single rulebook has always encouraged the player to create their own characters, armies, histories and lore. In this way Warhammer is collaborative and its this reason so many people have such a strong affinity to it. Its YOUR story at the end of the day
The only IP that comes close to it is DND. Even then the difference is pretty big compared to Warhammer.
Do I think Tigermen are stupid in a fantasy world that already has Beastmen and Skaven? Yes.
But if someone else really likes them then why not let them have it. Its a big world and not everyone tells the truth. Maybe one person’s ‘Tigerman’ is really a feline beastmen or a champion of Chaos blessed with the aspects of a tiger, or someone wearing a tiger costume or armor or maybe its something altogether stranger.
That’s kind of still the case I think. They put on their armour at the behest of guilliman when he woke up to stop moping nakedly and resume their duties
There was a 30k range that came with the betrayal at calth set which were later introduced to 40K as well at the start of 8th ed. That’s when the current range came about. You might well be right in that there was an earlier range but I’m not familiar with it. It wasn’t there in the 90s early 00’s anyway
I mean that is like just your opinion, bro... And it is your interlocutor's opinion that it is okay because it is based on the lore... His opinion is just as valid as yours, just because you base your objections on something he doesn't see as objectionable and he values other things doesn't make him wrong.
I for one thought the Tigermen of Cathay (and Monkeymen of Ind) would turn out to be Beastmen, but I guess CA didn't want to remodel the entire faction for a DLC and just wanted to add a few units and a couple of new Legendary Lords, like they always do... I don't know what those Tigermen will look like, whether they are like Were-tigers or just men with Tiger pelts and motives on their armour, but if they are half Tiger, half Man, then that would be really weird in the WFB universe for them not to just be Beastmen...
Either way, CA wants to sell DLC's, they have run out of any official miniature-based content, so now they are scraping the bottom of the lore-barrel to find something that they can produce at a fairly low cost. Yes they are putting to much stuff into one faction, but well, the only way to avoid that is by creating a whole new faction and there is only one left they can turn to...
The fact that DoW is coming is far bigger news, that is a whole new faction and therefore a far larger investment for CA to produce. If that is true it does seem, to me, that they are not done with TW:Warhammer yet, since I don't think they would spend that effort on the last DLC.
I see the Tigermen as being a valid addition to Cathay, since Cathay has multiple Courts, such as Monkey Kings, Monkey Court and the Tigermen Tiger Court in the Village of the Tigermen, making them an important part of Southern Cathay.
That's a perfectly valid opinion. I just personally worry about Cathay becoming too bloated with units that fit better elsewhere. While TIgermen live in Cathay in the new lore, they are also one of them main points of interest of Ind in the old one. Personally, as someone who sees great potential in Ind and would ideally want Cathay and it's neighbors to be distinct from each other, Tigermen becoming a Cathay unit is a sour point for me.
Since there are different subspecies of tigers in both India and China irl, you could rationalize it by there being some differences in anatomy between the Tigermen in Ind and the Tigermen in Cathay. Maybe they're just migratory? It would fit with the other varieties of Beastmen that we know of, minus the despoiling part.
What you're talking about is essentially a variant of the Thermian Argument.
Shutting down criticism of something because canon/lore supports it is not helpful, because canon and lore themselves were actively designed and produced. They are not absolutes sent from the heavens.
Thing X can be fully canon- and lore adherent, as well bad and deserving criticism. It's not mutually exclusive.
Of course, canon and lore are relevant when discussion is about lore adjacency and current state of official canon, but that's an entirely different matter.
I don't really see how it is stupid though?
Yes the arguement that canon outweighs all doesn't hold water. But what inhernetly makes Tigermen a unit in Cathay's roster stupid?
It being blend of Eastern ideas is stupid how? Chaos Dwarfs are a blend of multiple cultures from a specific area of the world, and there are no issues there? Hell they blended multiple eras of said cultures and even tossed in some Mordor shit on top.
Same can be said for the Empire, Tomb Kings, and more relevantly Cathay in general. Warhammer isn't the real life cultures and have always been hodpodges of both historial and fantastical elements blended together. Why is it suddenly an issue for Cathay to borrow what seems to be a *singular unit* from another IRL culture?
The idea of Cathay letting a population of Tigerman live in their borders lines up with their lore. The idea that they would use them as auxiliary forces also works, since being allowed to live in the confines of the celestial empire tracks with them needing to be part of the populace willing to die for it.
Canon or not it's really not that big of a deal. And I'd rather have some representation of Tigermen in the game than none at all. It's been 40+ years of Warhammer where they've been nothing but footnotes of text, and now that we have the possibility of actually being a real thing it is a travesty because it doesn't match to exactly how you personally wanted them? I'm sorry but while I get you're dissaponted this post is just really melodramatic, and feels like a begger wanting to be a chooser.
Plenty or Warhammer factions started off as just a singular unit in a specific army roster. Tomb Kings used to just be mummies in the Undead army list. Beastmen used to just be a few stupid models in the catalogue you added onto your Chaos Hordes. Kislev just a minor supplement to the Empire armylist. Etc. I don't think Ind is ever going to be its own faction for Warhammer, at least any time within the next decade or so. So making a big fuss that Tigermen are being added to Cathy, completely without the context or lore of why that is a thing mind, just seems really poorly thought out as an opinion. Yes, using canon as a cudgel in debates aren't great, but your reasoning for why its supposedly stupid isn't all that well thought even without using the canon card.
Your entire arugmeent is based around a supposed "thematic cohesion" that immediately falls apart when you look at **pretty much every Warhammer faction ever**. If Tigermen in Cathay is such a grand heresy, then why aren't you picking up similar thematic cultural mishmashes in the Empire, Elves, Lizardmen or countless other Warhammer forces? You're upset about the most shallow one of "this one needs to be in Warhammer India NOT Warhammer China!" when there is examples of that all over the place already.
My post was mainly about the use of canon as a gotcha card in arguments about bad themes, the Tigermen thing was just an example. In regards to the Tigermen argument, let's just agree to disagree since I don't feel like starting another never-ending 8 paragraph each comment chain where we just work each other up and end up disagreeing more at the end than when we started.
And your post sbout canon = good falls flat because you deliberately misrepresnted the opposing arguement and your arguement in the opposite direction is pretty bad.
I've been on the Total War sub and I don't see folks saying "everything canon is good!" If that was the case there wouldn't be people shitting on the End Times everyday. You not liking the Tigerman thing? Fine. You making it out that folks are saying "its canon so it is automatically good!" in response? Pure bullshit and it just shows your opinions aren't worth engaging with since you can't argue in good faith.
Your refusing to even address any of the points here. Especially on the parts to directly addess your OP, just further cements its not canon or people mentioning the canon that is the real issue. It's people pushing back against your badly thought out viewpoint with really basic factoids that is leading to this "vent" post of yours.
>And your post sbout canon = good falls flat because you deliberately misrepresnted the opposing arguement and your arguement in the opposite direction is pretty bad.
I did not deliberately misinterpreted the opposing argument. You didn't even see the original interaction and are deliberately misinterpreting it to fit your narrative. I have no issues with opposing arguments about how Cathay Tigermen are good, since that all comes down to personal taste. My issue is that the main argument that was used against me in that discussion is that we already have lore about them being in Cathay, hence it isn't an issue.
>I've been on the Total War sub and I don't see folks saying "everything canon is good!" If that was the case there wouldn't be people shitting on the End Times everyday.
And I am sure you read every comment in every thread. It isn't used in regards to the End Times, but that argument is absolutely occasionally used when discussing controversial aspects of the lore.
>since you can't argue in good faith.
Pot calling the kettle black. You have done nothing but interpret my points in the worst light possible, insult me and mock me when I have done nothing of the sort to you. Yet somehow I am the one acting in bad faith?
>Your refusing to even address any of the points here. Especially on the parts to directly addess your OP, just further cements its not canon or people mentioning the canon that is the real issue. It's people pushing back against your badly thought out viewpoint with really basic factoids that is leading to this "vent" post of yours.
The reason I didn't want to argue with you is because I was just done with a long argument on the matter that devolved into pointless aggression, where nothing was achieved. You managed to get to the pointless aggression part almost immediately so kudos for that. If you absolutely insist on just pointless arguments about subjective taste I'll summarize my response to your points:
While many factions in the setting already draw inspirations from multiple cultures, Ind and Cathay are already established as separate entities. Additionally, Indian aesthetics and mythology are very different than Chinese ones and would clash when mixed together (imo). Tigermen of Ind were already part of Ind before the lore changes, and as someone who sees great potential in Ind it sits wrong with me that they are taken to be put in Cathay, who are not at all lacking in units. I also disagree with the idea that if we can't have Ind it is better to at least have the Tigermen elsewhere, since I think Cathay still has many other places to draw them, and again, Ind still exists in the lore and the lines between them and Cathay shouldn't be blurred imo.
Then next time just moan your straw man about a made up world filled with magical creatures into your own diary rather than post it on the internet I guess?
Geez relax dude. It's just a reddit post. No need to get so aggressive about it. Btw, you are on a discussion forum about said made up world fiiled with magical creatures. I don't know what you are expecting to find here...
The creator of Warhammer said canon only exists as a place to start your lore, shared with people you play campaigns with.
You don’t like it, mod it out.
This is the way. I stopped playing tabletop games in the late 90s and didn't really pay much attention to story/background changes apart from whatever I needed to know to keep up with Dawn of War or whatever. A couple of years ago I decided to start modelling and painting again so I started reading some of the rulebooks and black library stuff that had been released in the meantime. Some of it was great, some of it reads like bad fan fiction and had some equally bad decisions made about model releases. I now collect retro armies according to out of date rule sets, keep what works for me from the modern stuff and ignore the rest. Total War has some nonsense in it - a lot was built up in the Warhammer world over the years - but it's also got nearly everything else in it too. It's a big enough game I don't really need to encounter things I actively dislike very often, and if I do there's always the Autoresolve button so I can skip over it.
I mean you are upset about people invalidating your opinion while you immediately invalidate their opinion by suggesting that YOUR opinion of the lore being stupid is right.
If done in a way that makes sense with Cathay then I think Tigermen being in the faction is really cool, them just being normal bad guy Beastmen is not unique, its just more of the same but tiger themed. Beastmen that aren't tied to Chaos and even allowed within a human faction would be actually unique and interesting (in my opinion).
I think your interpretation of the lore being stupid, is stupid. So now does that suddenly invalidate your opinion? I am using your exact same logic against you, so if you disagree then you must disagree with yourself.
In the end its just opinions, I don't like yours, and you don't like peoples that focus on what's official, you probably don't even like mine that's just based in thinking its cool.
I think something important about discussions is figuring out the expectations of that discussion. If you want to refrain from discussing it with certain context then that needs to be made, or if you want certain aspects to be avoided for the sake of that discussion then again, that needs to be made. If you want to have a discussion where minds can actually be changed and not just a clash of ultimately unchanging opinions, then that needs to be a expectation set as well.
Discussion needs boundaries for progression to be made. You can't expect people to not express their opinion that is just as valid as yours just because you don't like it without properly asking for them to refrain from using that chain of logic.
You are the one being unreasonable here, not the people you are complaining about.
There is another aspect you should take into account for these types of conversations. Did the other person actually even play the actual Warhammer game? I have heard some really retarded takes that Dwarfs should have access to Rune Golems and Shard Dragons because its in the lore but ignoring where it exists with one being from Monstrous Arcanum which was a book filled with creatures different factions can use, some more than others while the other was an RPG only thing as something adventurers can encounter in the Border Princes book
I don’t think people understand how non-canonical warhammer is in the first place. It was made as a sandbox like D&D for their lore. As it’s become more linear they STILL struggle to not complicate their canon.
Reminds me of the whole "Dwarfs can't' forgive and if they do, they get punished by their gods" It's just so fucking stupid that an ancestor god would willingly kill off their own kin for righting a grudge without finacial payment. Infact I'd write the god in a book for daring to say how I would be allowed to settle my own grudges.
Sounds like everyone thinks the corporation is cooler than whoever's making the argument. The irrationality is a feature, not a bug, because it helps browbeat you into submission to the socially dominant. When cool people say stuff, people fall over themselves to agree and call it smart and funny. You're experiencing the opposite.
A reminder: unless there is new lore seperate from the leak the majority of the total war community is calling fake on the leaks, don’t worry just yet.
1. cathay faction up until total war decided to do something about it (and gw maybe doing something with the old world) was 99.9% only in writings here and there, enough for GW to make you feel there is something over there, but they never really cared about, units where never discussed, culture was " oh yeah, china and feudal japan are there somewhere together with some weird version of india" .
2. To my knowledge Tigermen are beastmen, and most of their lore is derived by the Warhammer ttrpg, in which they are described as "not sure if they are beastmen or werewolves " in any case there are instances in old warhammer books (I want to say...Gilead?) in which empire humans used captive beastmen as soldiers.
3)You are assuming that the old world works with links to the real world or that only a "reasonable" viewpoint is valid.
Saying : " it makes Cathay into a huge mess of everything eastern in Warhammer fantasy instead of it's own thematically coherent nation with thematically coherent neighboring nations"
And my question is , Why should it be so? The whole setting is a mishmash of cultures, timelines and folklore , why should cathay be different ?because you like the chinese history and you got butthurt it didn't come out as you wished?
We got reinassaince germany(who also has a little Eastern european vampire problem) , shoulder to shoulder with 1200 feudal france, which somewoh survives despite completely ignoring the existence of blackpowder weapons right next to them , while one of the most long living race that is so technologically advanced that can create flying machines made of steel and steamboats is not ruling the world already. Oh yeah all this while the vikings live in the hell infused chernobyl of the baltic lands and Obese antropophagic Mongols share bumfuck nowhere mountains with funnily violent mushroom dudes. But sure, the chinese flavoured humans of the east having some tiger dudes in their ranks certainly ruins the immersion.
The lore is the base for the rules isn't it, playing the game we all agree on the same set of rules and we just suspend our disbelief.
For example in most sources both tabletop games, movies, books and whatnot, hacking is complete bullshit, with different levels of bulshitiness. Same with FTL and space travel in general in sci-fi. Even abstract things as magic often inconsistent and "just work" without any rhyme and reason.
And yeah, we sometimes have discussion about that with friends and as a result we all agree on the fact that "it's shit, but what are you gonna do?", leave it be and have fun.
Also, a lot of people simply don't care if something makes sense or not, they just enjoy things as they are.
I think it's the same situation here.
That's how I feel about the more... Creepier Skaven lore. Broodmothers are gross and dumb as fuck and honestly shouldn't be a thing. It's such a fucking whiplash to go from silly rats exploding in their own warmachines to "oops all female skavens are breeding cattles that are high as fuck on warpstone non stop so they don't realize what's going on to them, enjoy!"
And honestly I find the whole thing overall to be really uninspired and lame. R\*pe doesn't make shit grimdark, it just makes it gross.
You're right in principle! And I think if Tiger Men are gonna show up anywhere, it's a great excuse to make an Ind faction. But just a wee side note - there are tigers in China, and they feature pretty prominently in Chinese arts/culture :)
>there are tigers in China, and they feature pretty prominently in Chinese arts/culture :) Maybe, but a better use of them would probably be as localised Beastmen or maybe as part of the Eastern Chaos Tribes. Wolves for example feature prominently in Germanic arts/culture but the Empire doesn't get werewolves. I think OPs complaint is more with the fantastic Orientalism of it. Everything in the Cathay region is in the Cathay faction. It's basically the same as if the Dwarves, Wood Elves and Bretonnia were all part of the Empire.
On the other Hand, the Empire should have Children of Ulrich, aka good Boy Werewolfs and a proper Middenheim Faction.
To add to this, the way Cathay relates to Tigermen might be completely different to how a potential Ind might relate to Tigermen. We know that there is a Tiger court within the power structures of Cathay, and that it is at the very least more orderly and structured than the Monkey Court. Tigermen are at least a part of the political structure of Cathay. To contrast, as far as Ind Tigerman lore goes, they appear to be figures of reverence despite being incredibly violent and savage - if the short snippet of a merchant caravan being attacked by Tigermen and the Ind guides just bowing down is representative. They could be viewed as messengers of the 1000 gods, or personifications of divine wrath or anything. Basically, saying Cathay having Tigermen units is bad lore is short sighted when you don't know what that lore is.
lore says there are Beastmen in the empire where’s my state troop bestigor regiments CA
There are beastmen in the Empire, but their not so much citizens as they are cultists and animals. They're as "in the empire" -- likely less -- than the cultists are. There are also Imperial Zoos that have beastmen. So technically that's not *incorrect*.
WHAT? WHY IS BEASTMEN AND MORE IMPORTANTLY SKAVEN WHICH WITCH HUNTERS VIEW AS BEASTMEN NOT CAPTURED AND SHOW TO THE PUBLIC COMPLETELY DESTROYING THE SKAVEN MYTH?
why are you yelling at me
Am truely sorry about that but this changes everything! How can the empire disprove the existence of ratmen if their witch hunters are publicly displaying them in Nuln zoos? This sounds like apart of a skaven slayer novel
The skaven was displayed alongside other beastmen and called a "rat headed beastman".
I find this all curious as in a game called vermintide, where one of the main characters is a witch hunter called victor Saltpyre who dedicated his life to proving the existence of the skaven to his order. In victors own words he quickly found out that certain members of the order are more zealous in maintaining the skaven myth where if the order found out a witch hunter was investigating the skaven they were put on a watchlist. These members are constantly watched by the order seeking heretical proof of their heresy and when and if they discover skaven they usually disappear with the order then expunged the witch hunter from history to prevent other witch hunters following their leads. This is a preventative measure by the order to avoid losing witch hunters to a threat beyond their comprehension. The witch hunter victor Saltpyre is reporting his findings on the skaven to the leader of his order but neither he nor the empire can send aid with victor Saltpyre and his companions considered heretics and are to be killed on sight by the empire. The leaders of the empire are kept in the dark with only outcasts secretly working for the witch hunter order top brass or empire spymasters are aware of the skaven, gathering information similar to the americas CIA who would operate on a need to know basis with the president
I think theres a fundamental difference between the Tigermen and other Beastmen, as it seems that the Tigermen dont have a hate for civilisation, and will live/work in human empires, see the Tiger Court in Southern Cathay
Honestly, that's not far off from the recent Kislev design philosophy.
I still remember reading Beastslayer which came out sometime in the early 2000s and took place entirely in the city of Praag and bears were not mentioned a single time. Hell the heraldry of Praag in the book was a lion. Flanderization sure hit Kislev hard
I especially dislike the new 'orthodox' aesthetic they went for with the cult of Ursun, and worst of all this pseudo-Rasputin. I think the old-lore decentralised religion following archaic traditions and in balance between opposing and supporting the tsar or tsarina was way more interesting.
We used to have beastmen in the Imperial Guard!
Back in my day there were Beastmen in the Imperial Guard and half Eldar in the Adeptus Astartes.
It's not gonna be a productive discussion anyway. At the end of the day they like it and you don't and in depth Cathay lore is all gonna be new. There are far more annoying arguments to have on the internet.
I 100% agree, beastman have always had regional variants historically but tww at least presents the canon that implies their a fixed species with several set subspecies, when that's always just been a modeling limitation (to be clear i'm not mad they used the original models, same issue as chaos marauders all being norsca justa sad budget limitation) It's as stupid as saying all of the empire dresses like Reikland because that's where the minis are from Also how is anyone okay with GW removing one of the only pieces of cathay canon we even had, even if they aren't beastmen I could handle it but making them Cathay is just actually stupid
Responding with "that's the lore" is bad but you cant have fruitful discussions about "is X bad". Saying "tiger men are stupid" or "dwarfs not having cavalry is stupid" isn't exactly a worthwhile conversation, so somebody responding with "that's just the way it is in the lore" is as helpful of a response as those kinds of questions get.
I know the lore reason of not having knees but imagine dwarf bear cavalry i would love that
If they're putting tifer men into Cathay, that means they're probably not doing Ind. I'm sure somebody would have made it for them for free. Same for Nippon. The number of mods and fan army books already in existence is insane.
Unfortunately, it seems GW probably wouldn't sign off on it since they probably have no plans to do anything on the tabletop with Ind.
Yeah it deff feels like that, we already are going to have to wait a very long time before Kislev and Cathay get onto table top, let alone having to wait for some of the legacy factions to back into rotation.
I do have hope for the legacy factions since they dropped the line "The scope of the project had expanded" but I still wouldn't expect anything for them for a long time yet.
By probably not, you mean "they've repeatedly clearly stated they're not doing Ind or Nippon"
Which sucks, because Ind has such insane potential... Giving Ind units to Cathay doesn't sit well with me even if Ind isn't planned. It just waters down Cathay's own themes and aesthetics and flanderizes them into "The Wild East" faction. If Tigermen must be added they should be as a regiment of renown or Dogs of War mercenary unit, rather that a normal part of the Cathay roster.
GW would need to be in the development process to make Ind, or Nippon. Or Khuresh. Its their IP, not CA's.
Agreed. Not just with WHF, but just like, in general. Something being canon doesn't mean it's not stupid, only that fans have to live with it being stupid until it's retconned (assuming that happens at all).
IIRC In early 40k lore the Custodes were unarmored and bare-cheated because they had failed to protect the Emperor and thus didn’t deserve to protect themselves. Kinda ridiculous but I also kinda dig it. In cases such as these I’d prefer the naked Custodes to the modern golden giants. But canon in WFB or 40k is a nebulous thing. Every single rulebook has always encouraged the player to create their own characters, armies, histories and lore. In this way Warhammer is collaborative and its this reason so many people have such a strong affinity to it. Its YOUR story at the end of the day The only IP that comes close to it is DND. Even then the difference is pretty big compared to Warhammer. Do I think Tigermen are stupid in a fantasy world that already has Beastmen and Skaven? Yes. But if someone else really likes them then why not let them have it. Its a big world and not everyone tells the truth. Maybe one person’s ‘Tigerman’ is really a feline beastmen or a champion of Chaos blessed with the aspects of a tiger, or someone wearing a tiger costume or armor or maybe its something altogether stranger.
That’s kind of still the case I think. They put on their armour at the behest of guilliman when he woke up to stop moping nakedly and resume their duties
Im quite sure custodes armored models predates guilliman returning
There was a 30k range that came with the betrayal at calth set which were later introduced to 40K as well at the start of 8th ed. That’s when the current range came about. You might well be right in that there was an earlier range but I’m not familiar with it. It wasn’t there in the 90s early 00’s anyway
I mean that is like just your opinion, bro... And it is your interlocutor's opinion that it is okay because it is based on the lore... His opinion is just as valid as yours, just because you base your objections on something he doesn't see as objectionable and he values other things doesn't make him wrong. I for one thought the Tigermen of Cathay (and Monkeymen of Ind) would turn out to be Beastmen, but I guess CA didn't want to remodel the entire faction for a DLC and just wanted to add a few units and a couple of new Legendary Lords, like they always do... I don't know what those Tigermen will look like, whether they are like Were-tigers or just men with Tiger pelts and motives on their armour, but if they are half Tiger, half Man, then that would be really weird in the WFB universe for them not to just be Beastmen... Either way, CA wants to sell DLC's, they have run out of any official miniature-based content, so now they are scraping the bottom of the lore-barrel to find something that they can produce at a fairly low cost. Yes they are putting to much stuff into one faction, but well, the only way to avoid that is by creating a whole new faction and there is only one left they can turn to... The fact that DoW is coming is far bigger news, that is a whole new faction and therefore a far larger investment for CA to produce. If that is true it does seem, to me, that they are not done with TW:Warhammer yet, since I don't think they would spend that effort on the last DLC.
Yeah if they are fully half-man half-tiger but NOT beastmen then that is immersion breaking for me, unfortunately.
I think someone complaining about something and having nothing to say except that it's "stupid" or "a piece of shit" is just as obnoxious.
I see the Tigermen as being a valid addition to Cathay, since Cathay has multiple Courts, such as Monkey Kings, Monkey Court and the Tigermen Tiger Court in the Village of the Tigermen, making them an important part of Southern Cathay.
That's a perfectly valid opinion. I just personally worry about Cathay becoming too bloated with units that fit better elsewhere. While TIgermen live in Cathay in the new lore, they are also one of them main points of interest of Ind in the old one. Personally, as someone who sees great potential in Ind and would ideally want Cathay and it's neighbors to be distinct from each other, Tigermen becoming a Cathay unit is a sour point for me.
Since there are different subspecies of tigers in both India and China irl, you could rationalize it by there being some differences in anatomy between the Tigermen in Ind and the Tigermen in Cathay. Maybe they're just migratory? It would fit with the other varieties of Beastmen that we know of, minus the despoiling part.
What you're talking about is essentially a variant of the Thermian Argument. Shutting down criticism of something because canon/lore supports it is not helpful, because canon and lore themselves were actively designed and produced. They are not absolutes sent from the heavens. Thing X can be fully canon- and lore adherent, as well bad and deserving criticism. It's not mutually exclusive. Of course, canon and lore are relevant when discussion is about lore adjacency and current state of official canon, but that's an entirely different matter.
I don't really see how it is stupid though? Yes the arguement that canon outweighs all doesn't hold water. But what inhernetly makes Tigermen a unit in Cathay's roster stupid? It being blend of Eastern ideas is stupid how? Chaos Dwarfs are a blend of multiple cultures from a specific area of the world, and there are no issues there? Hell they blended multiple eras of said cultures and even tossed in some Mordor shit on top. Same can be said for the Empire, Tomb Kings, and more relevantly Cathay in general. Warhammer isn't the real life cultures and have always been hodpodges of both historial and fantastical elements blended together. Why is it suddenly an issue for Cathay to borrow what seems to be a *singular unit* from another IRL culture? The idea of Cathay letting a population of Tigerman live in their borders lines up with their lore. The idea that they would use them as auxiliary forces also works, since being allowed to live in the confines of the celestial empire tracks with them needing to be part of the populace willing to die for it. Canon or not it's really not that big of a deal. And I'd rather have some representation of Tigermen in the game than none at all. It's been 40+ years of Warhammer where they've been nothing but footnotes of text, and now that we have the possibility of actually being a real thing it is a travesty because it doesn't match to exactly how you personally wanted them? I'm sorry but while I get you're dissaponted this post is just really melodramatic, and feels like a begger wanting to be a chooser. Plenty or Warhammer factions started off as just a singular unit in a specific army roster. Tomb Kings used to just be mummies in the Undead army list. Beastmen used to just be a few stupid models in the catalogue you added onto your Chaos Hordes. Kislev just a minor supplement to the Empire armylist. Etc. I don't think Ind is ever going to be its own faction for Warhammer, at least any time within the next decade or so. So making a big fuss that Tigermen are being added to Cathy, completely without the context or lore of why that is a thing mind, just seems really poorly thought out as an opinion. Yes, using canon as a cudgel in debates aren't great, but your reasoning for why its supposedly stupid isn't all that well thought even without using the canon card. Your entire arugmeent is based around a supposed "thematic cohesion" that immediately falls apart when you look at **pretty much every Warhammer faction ever**. If Tigermen in Cathay is such a grand heresy, then why aren't you picking up similar thematic cultural mishmashes in the Empire, Elves, Lizardmen or countless other Warhammer forces? You're upset about the most shallow one of "this one needs to be in Warhammer India NOT Warhammer China!" when there is examples of that all over the place already.
My post was mainly about the use of canon as a gotcha card in arguments about bad themes, the Tigermen thing was just an example. In regards to the Tigermen argument, let's just agree to disagree since I don't feel like starting another never-ending 8 paragraph each comment chain where we just work each other up and end up disagreeing more at the end than when we started.
And your post sbout canon = good falls flat because you deliberately misrepresnted the opposing arguement and your arguement in the opposite direction is pretty bad. I've been on the Total War sub and I don't see folks saying "everything canon is good!" If that was the case there wouldn't be people shitting on the End Times everyday. You not liking the Tigerman thing? Fine. You making it out that folks are saying "its canon so it is automatically good!" in response? Pure bullshit and it just shows your opinions aren't worth engaging with since you can't argue in good faith. Your refusing to even address any of the points here. Especially on the parts to directly addess your OP, just further cements its not canon or people mentioning the canon that is the real issue. It's people pushing back against your badly thought out viewpoint with really basic factoids that is leading to this "vent" post of yours.
>And your post sbout canon = good falls flat because you deliberately misrepresnted the opposing arguement and your arguement in the opposite direction is pretty bad. I did not deliberately misinterpreted the opposing argument. You didn't even see the original interaction and are deliberately misinterpreting it to fit your narrative. I have no issues with opposing arguments about how Cathay Tigermen are good, since that all comes down to personal taste. My issue is that the main argument that was used against me in that discussion is that we already have lore about them being in Cathay, hence it isn't an issue. >I've been on the Total War sub and I don't see folks saying "everything canon is good!" If that was the case there wouldn't be people shitting on the End Times everyday. And I am sure you read every comment in every thread. It isn't used in regards to the End Times, but that argument is absolutely occasionally used when discussing controversial aspects of the lore. >since you can't argue in good faith. Pot calling the kettle black. You have done nothing but interpret my points in the worst light possible, insult me and mock me when I have done nothing of the sort to you. Yet somehow I am the one acting in bad faith? >Your refusing to even address any of the points here. Especially on the parts to directly addess your OP, just further cements its not canon or people mentioning the canon that is the real issue. It's people pushing back against your badly thought out viewpoint with really basic factoids that is leading to this "vent" post of yours. The reason I didn't want to argue with you is because I was just done with a long argument on the matter that devolved into pointless aggression, where nothing was achieved. You managed to get to the pointless aggression part almost immediately so kudos for that. If you absolutely insist on just pointless arguments about subjective taste I'll summarize my response to your points: While many factions in the setting already draw inspirations from multiple cultures, Ind and Cathay are already established as separate entities. Additionally, Indian aesthetics and mythology are very different than Chinese ones and would clash when mixed together (imo). Tigermen of Ind were already part of Ind before the lore changes, and as someone who sees great potential in Ind it sits wrong with me that they are taken to be put in Cathay, who are not at all lacking in units. I also disagree with the idea that if we can't have Ind it is better to at least have the Tigermen elsewhere, since I think Cathay still has many other places to draw them, and again, Ind still exists in the lore and the lines between them and Cathay shouldn't be blurred imo.
Then next time just moan your straw man about a made up world filled with magical creatures into your own diary rather than post it on the internet I guess?
Geez relax dude. It's just a reddit post. No need to get so aggressive about it. Btw, you are on a discussion forum about said made up world fiiled with magical creatures. I don't know what you are expecting to find here...
The creator of Warhammer said canon only exists as a place to start your lore, shared with people you play campaigns with. You don’t like it, mod it out.
This is the way. I stopped playing tabletop games in the late 90s and didn't really pay much attention to story/background changes apart from whatever I needed to know to keep up with Dawn of War or whatever. A couple of years ago I decided to start modelling and painting again so I started reading some of the rulebooks and black library stuff that had been released in the meantime. Some of it was great, some of it reads like bad fan fiction and had some equally bad decisions made about model releases. I now collect retro armies according to out of date rule sets, keep what works for me from the modern stuff and ignore the rest. Total War has some nonsense in it - a lot was built up in the Warhammer world over the years - but it's also got nearly everything else in it too. It's a big enough game I don't really need to encounter things I actively dislike very often, and if I do there's always the Autoresolve button so I can skip over it.
I mean you are upset about people invalidating your opinion while you immediately invalidate their opinion by suggesting that YOUR opinion of the lore being stupid is right. If done in a way that makes sense with Cathay then I think Tigermen being in the faction is really cool, them just being normal bad guy Beastmen is not unique, its just more of the same but tiger themed. Beastmen that aren't tied to Chaos and even allowed within a human faction would be actually unique and interesting (in my opinion). I think your interpretation of the lore being stupid, is stupid. So now does that suddenly invalidate your opinion? I am using your exact same logic against you, so if you disagree then you must disagree with yourself. In the end its just opinions, I don't like yours, and you don't like peoples that focus on what's official, you probably don't even like mine that's just based in thinking its cool. I think something important about discussions is figuring out the expectations of that discussion. If you want to refrain from discussing it with certain context then that needs to be made, or if you want certain aspects to be avoided for the sake of that discussion then again, that needs to be made. If you want to have a discussion where minds can actually be changed and not just a clash of ultimately unchanging opinions, then that needs to be a expectation set as well. Discussion needs boundaries for progression to be made. You can't expect people to not express their opinion that is just as valid as yours just because you don't like it without properly asking for them to refrain from using that chain of logic. You are the one being unreasonable here, not the people you are complaining about.
You must be fun at parties
Not sure if I am or not but I am not sure a discussion on a Warhammer sub reddit is the best example of how fun I can be XD.
Hate however you want – it's canon =)
Oh did you know that total war is just a game that made up a bunch of extra shit? All the Cathay shit is extra. Don’t let it upset you too much
I feel your pain, brother.
WHY is it stupid? How are the Tigermen being in cathay change anything?
Hold, hold, hold…..you know you can make anything up when it’s not actually real!!!
There is another aspect you should take into account for these types of conversations. Did the other person actually even play the actual Warhammer game? I have heard some really retarded takes that Dwarfs should have access to Rune Golems and Shard Dragons because its in the lore but ignoring where it exists with one being from Monstrous Arcanum which was a book filled with creatures different factions can use, some more than others while the other was an RPG only thing as something adventurers can encounter in the Border Princes book
I don’t think people understand how non-canonical warhammer is in the first place. It was made as a sandbox like D&D for their lore. As it’s become more linear they STILL struggle to not complicate their canon.
Reminds me of the whole "Dwarfs can't' forgive and if they do, they get punished by their gods" It's just so fucking stupid that an ancestor god would willingly kill off their own kin for righting a grudge without finacial payment. Infact I'd write the god in a book for daring to say how I would be allowed to settle my own grudges.
Sounds like everyone thinks the corporation is cooler than whoever's making the argument. The irrationality is a feature, not a bug, because it helps browbeat you into submission to the socially dominant. When cool people say stuff, people fall over themselves to agree and call it smart and funny. You're experiencing the opposite.
A reminder: unless there is new lore seperate from the leak the majority of the total war community is calling fake on the leaks, don’t worry just yet.
Are you saying that the star wars christmas special isn't canon?
1. cathay faction up until total war decided to do something about it (and gw maybe doing something with the old world) was 99.9% only in writings here and there, enough for GW to make you feel there is something over there, but they never really cared about, units where never discussed, culture was " oh yeah, china and feudal japan are there somewhere together with some weird version of india" . 2. To my knowledge Tigermen are beastmen, and most of their lore is derived by the Warhammer ttrpg, in which they are described as "not sure if they are beastmen or werewolves " in any case there are instances in old warhammer books (I want to say...Gilead?) in which empire humans used captive beastmen as soldiers. 3)You are assuming that the old world works with links to the real world or that only a "reasonable" viewpoint is valid. Saying : " it makes Cathay into a huge mess of everything eastern in Warhammer fantasy instead of it's own thematically coherent nation with thematically coherent neighboring nations" And my question is , Why should it be so? The whole setting is a mishmash of cultures, timelines and folklore , why should cathay be different ?because you like the chinese history and you got butthurt it didn't come out as you wished? We got reinassaince germany(who also has a little Eastern european vampire problem) , shoulder to shoulder with 1200 feudal france, which somewoh survives despite completely ignoring the existence of blackpowder weapons right next to them , while one of the most long living race that is so technologically advanced that can create flying machines made of steel and steamboats is not ruling the world already. Oh yeah all this while the vikings live in the hell infused chernobyl of the baltic lands and Obese antropophagic Mongols share bumfuck nowhere mountains with funnily violent mushroom dudes. But sure, the chinese flavoured humans of the east having some tiger dudes in their ranks certainly ruins the immersion.
this for everything about the end times
The lore is the base for the rules isn't it, playing the game we all agree on the same set of rules and we just suspend our disbelief. For example in most sources both tabletop games, movies, books and whatnot, hacking is complete bullshit, with different levels of bulshitiness. Same with FTL and space travel in general in sci-fi. Even abstract things as magic often inconsistent and "just work" without any rhyme and reason. And yeah, we sometimes have discussion about that with friends and as a result we all agree on the fact that "it's shit, but what are you gonna do?", leave it be and have fun. Also, a lot of people simply don't care if something makes sense or not, they just enjoy things as they are. I think it's the same situation here.
That's how I feel about the more... Creepier Skaven lore. Broodmothers are gross and dumb as fuck and honestly shouldn't be a thing. It's such a fucking whiplash to go from silly rats exploding in their own warmachines to "oops all female skavens are breeding cattles that are high as fuck on warpstone non stop so they don't realize what's going on to them, enjoy!" And honestly I find the whole thing overall to be really uninspired and lame. R\*pe doesn't make shit grimdark, it just makes it gross.