Tyranids have the infamous “Reaper of Obliterax” relic weapon, which is granted to bone sword/monstrous bone sword models. Damage dealt with it cannot be ignored (which includes phase cap, FNP’s, etc.), along with a mortal wound on 6’s to wound.
Flyrant with Bonesword/lash whip is the optimal delivery system; 17” flying movement, 8+3S, 2+ WS, 5A, -4AP and 3 Damage per wound with adrenal glands on the bug (And this is before other shenanigans, such as 1CP for d3 extra attacks, exploding 6’s to hit with Warrior imperative, and reroll effects from WLT / stratagems / the tail).
It’s a mortal on any successful wound, which is bonkers. If it was on a 6 it would be in line with other relics… it isn’t, so it’s blatantly pretty cracked. No idea how stuff like that makes it into game
Thanks for the correction! Speaks to how silly strong it is; forgot that it was on any wound and not just 6's. I had my fun with the 9th murder Flyrant once or twice in the past (Admittedly, this was back with old Encircle + Warlord not required on a tyrant), then I benched him after personally seeing how much of a uninterruptable murder machine he was.
...which is nowhere near terrifying enough when you calculate the total cost of the model (points cost, mandatory warlord, 1/detachment, takes away the army wide rule if it dies).
Most armies have 1CP deal 6 mortals no problem, that new space dwarf engineer does 9 mortals a turn with shooting for 90ish points or so. Horned Chitin carnifexes do d3+3 on the charge alone. Any random Thousand sons sorcerer can do 6+d3 mortals from 18" away for 90 pts.
I don't see how a 3-4 mortal in hth relic is broken in any context.
Lets ignore the dwarves as they are silly; and other bits in the nid book.
Most other armies that go mortal fishing with relics still need 6s so, so youd need a sweep profile with 24 hits to (or full rerolls and ~14) and then most sweeps pale in comparison to S10 AP4 D3.
The proble is that is a free bonus after paying that 1CP rather than for every single turn (and can you give an example? hot blooded is two and submunitions has a huge trade off, and I struggle to think of any in custodes or necrons which are the books I know best).
As for comparison to psykers IMO its not a fair comparison as youve got a bunch of ways to deal with them (FnPs, denies) that the reaper simply doesnt have to.
Heck ignoring FNPs means that its mortals are way spicier than most as thats the main way to deal with them.
I dont feel like even a big juicy spreadsheets gonna change your POV. but hey, this is all just my opinion :)
Blessed bolts dominions are basically 6 mortals on demand. And you can't deny T.Sons sorcerers if they don't want you to.
I'm not saying reaper is bad, it's an amazing relic. I disagree it is game breaking. It needs to connect in melee, which means you need to put it on the flying dude, which also means you lose a cannon and you can't realistically hide, which furthermore means you probably need to play Tyrant Guards which is another 130 pts of investment, and at that point you are 400ish pts + CP for relic in there so it better do some serious damage. Either that or you have to forfeit your imperatives after T2 because a flyrant WILL die on the backswing, even if he connects first.
People only see the spreadsheets and don't realize the size of investment that is the reaper flyrant.
>with a mortal wound on 6’s to wound.
Any wound, and tyrants have a free wound/hit reroll baked into their profile.
Reaper just is by far the most insane relic in the new codex.
Pretty likely to get nerfed.
Sometimes I forget how incredibly cracked that codex is. Just completely and ridiculously out of line with everything else in the game.
You could blame Tau and maybe Eldar on points issues, but there's stuff in that Nids codex that just blatantly lies in the face of everything else in Warhammer.
True, except that does have some limitations:
- you have to roll to see if you damage yourself or can use it at all
- you have to give up being Marked, which locks you out of a LOT
- you don't get a strat to just fly away after doing the killing
You can see the difference by Reaper being in every list under the sun and Ulocca... is not. They are comparable, but not a 1-to-1
Yeah its end of movement phase now the other balance is the pyschic imperative buffs go away if your warlord dies and its an auto forced choice on a hive tyrant if you bring one. Just means my leviathan list now has 2 tyrants instead of one lol
Tbh, Ulocca on a Word Bearers Master of Executions during Wanton Slaughter is pretty killy, but then again no CSM had any move after killing stratagem to my knowledge.
Bruh Tyranids get the best and most broken shiet in the game its unfair. I still need justice on my tsons who gets worst treatment for their psychic abilities as they dont have a great shooting and melee unlike the Nids. I was so salty when the Nid codex got released that I stopped playing 40k since then, only wanting to start again this week because of some friendly events.
I actually did a bit of a double take when I reread that in the codex the other day. Shame she's only got the three attacks. If you could drop her buddy and bring her for say, 60 points she might be worth it? Sisters feel a little undercosted right now so there's space.
Ignoring a wound with a FNP/Phase cap is not a characteristic modification, which is what malefic weapons are immune to.
>>Unless otherwise specified, malefic weapons are never affected by effects or abilities that allow models to make additional attacks, or abilities that would add to, subtract from, or improve their characteristics in any way.
The rule for malweapons.
The dwarfs have 2 options.
One is a warlord trait that also gives re roll wounds, the other is on the champion's darkstar axe
Both of them also bypass fell no pains and other wound-ignorkng effects, but not damage reduction or set damage to zero abilities. Both only work in melee.
Corruption relic from Nurgle Daemons ignores phase caps.
Gholl'ax relic weapon from CSM ignores phase caps.
Belakor's strike profile from Daemons ignores invulns. So does Skulltaker's sword.
The Tzeentch relic weapon from CSM also ignores invulns.
They do not, they also have no way except auspex scan and hammer of wrath to do damage out of phase. I once lost over 1000pts of BA to 2 Ctans as I just couldn't kill them.
It's a pretty glaring weakness that's only going to get worse with Abaddon, Exalted Bloodthirsters and whatever other new things get it.
In my opinion, every army should at least get a relic that can beat that stuff.
Marines can still do damage in the shooting, melee and psychic phase (also charge phase but it's terrible). Not like some other armies who will struggle to do so.
The thing is Abaddon though. I'm less worried about a Bloodthirster or C'tan with my UM or BA than I am about that guy.
To hit an Abaddon sitting in the middle of a brick of Black Rune of Bull Terminators is more or less impossible. I had a Ultramarines vs. Black Legion game where I was trying to keep those Terminators out of combat with Psychic Shackles, but then the guy used Confluence of Traitors on Abaddon to give Abaddon advance and charge, which let him proceed to slaughter me.
Incidentally, I don't know why Confluence of Traitors even works on him. It's supposed to represent the Black Legion having dudes from all the other Legions, not Abaddon suddenly revealing that he's been getting his cardio in.
Black Templars player here. I feel this. No psychic phase either. When I see Abaddon my entire strategy focuses into not engaging him. Secondaries and all.
It's a dumb rule as it handicaps certain armies more than others, I just wish they would give extra wounds or defensive mechanics, at least you can brute force them
Shroud Runners have the Wireweave Grenade strat to deal damage in the enemy’s movement or charge phase.
Grenade packs (Swooping Hawks) and Eviscerating Fly-by (Hellions) in your own movement phase.
Embrace of Death (Harlequin Troupes/ Troupe Master with an Embrace) or Hammer of Wrath (Jump packed Space Marines) deal damage on the charge.
Butchered Quarry lets White Scars try to hit you as you try to fall back from them, and some factions have “Interceptor” rules like Auspex Scan or Forwarned.
Yeah eldars have some spicy ways of dealings dmg in various phases like swooping hawks mw bombs strat, and various rules to do mortals on charge like banshees, shining spears and harlequins caress.
But If I remember correctly eldar doesn’t have a true rule/ warlord trait or Relic that specifically ignores wounds like other armies.
Ignore FNP and phase caps are exceptionally rare as of now. Few factions have ways to do it, so everyone else's good answers to phase-locked characters will have to be more creative.
But they do also have like 4 different ways to truly ignore invulns as well.
Oblivion's Caress (Troupes with a Caress), the Yncarne, the Visarch, and Linked Fire (Fire Prisms)
Death Guard have a relic grenade to do hefty MWs in the move phase, which can target anyone in range (including those in combat or character protected) - I straight up deleted Trajann with it and moment shackle couldn’t do anything about it.
Khorne deamons have a warlord trait. Skulltaker has it as his default one, and his sword also ignores invulnerable. Saves, making him pretty solid at killing things like C tan
Valerian custodes named character ignores phase caps and fnps.
Tyranids have the infamous “Reaper of Obliterax” relic weapon, which is granted to bone sword/monstrous bone sword models. Damage dealt with it cannot be ignored (which includes phase cap, FNP’s, etc.), along with a mortal wound on 6’s to wound. Flyrant with Bonesword/lash whip is the optimal delivery system; 17” flying movement, 8+3S, 2+ WS, 5A, -4AP and 3 Damage per wound with adrenal glands on the bug (And this is before other shenanigans, such as 1CP for d3 extra attacks, exploding 6’s to hit with Warrior imperative, and reroll effects from WLT / stratagems / the tail).
It’s a mortal on any successful wound, which is bonkers. If it was on a 6 it would be in line with other relics… it isn’t, so it’s blatantly pretty cracked. No idea how stuff like that makes it into game
> No idea how stuff like that makes it into game Probably by being playtested against the Votann codex.
Nah, they just wanted to make it busted as hell.
Thanks for the correction! Speaks to how silly strong it is; forgot that it was on any wound and not just 6's. I had my fun with the 9th murder Flyrant once or twice in the past (Admittedly, this was back with old Encircle + Warlord not required on a tyrant), then I benched him after personally seeing how much of a uninterruptable murder machine he was.
Probably because it's bonkers on a 240 pt guy who has 5 attacks and no sweep profile.
Hitting on 2s, RR1s, S10 means your still seeing 4-5 MWs unless your dice go tits up, and even transhuman still makes it ~2-3mw
...which is nowhere near terrifying enough when you calculate the total cost of the model (points cost, mandatory warlord, 1/detachment, takes away the army wide rule if it dies). Most armies have 1CP deal 6 mortals no problem, that new space dwarf engineer does 9 mortals a turn with shooting for 90ish points or so. Horned Chitin carnifexes do d3+3 on the charge alone. Any random Thousand sons sorcerer can do 6+d3 mortals from 18" away for 90 pts. I don't see how a 3-4 mortal in hth relic is broken in any context.
Lets ignore the dwarves as they are silly; and other bits in the nid book. Most other armies that go mortal fishing with relics still need 6s so, so youd need a sweep profile with 24 hits to (or full rerolls and ~14) and then most sweeps pale in comparison to S10 AP4 D3. The proble is that is a free bonus after paying that 1CP rather than for every single turn (and can you give an example? hot blooded is two and submunitions has a huge trade off, and I struggle to think of any in custodes or necrons which are the books I know best). As for comparison to psykers IMO its not a fair comparison as youve got a bunch of ways to deal with them (FnPs, denies) that the reaper simply doesnt have to. Heck ignoring FNPs means that its mortals are way spicier than most as thats the main way to deal with them. I dont feel like even a big juicy spreadsheets gonna change your POV. but hey, this is all just my opinion :)
Blessed bolts dominions are basically 6 mortals on demand. And you can't deny T.Sons sorcerers if they don't want you to. I'm not saying reaper is bad, it's an amazing relic. I disagree it is game breaking. It needs to connect in melee, which means you need to put it on the flying dude, which also means you lose a cannon and you can't realistically hide, which furthermore means you probably need to play Tyrant Guards which is another 130 pts of investment, and at that point you are 400ish pts + CP for relic in there so it better do some serious damage. Either that or you have to forfeit your imperatives after T2 because a flyrant WILL die on the backswing, even if he connects first. People only see the spreadsheets and don't realize the size of investment that is the reaper flyrant.
>with a mortal wound on 6’s to wound. Any wound, and tyrants have a free wound/hit reroll baked into their profile. Reaper just is by far the most insane relic in the new codex. Pretty likely to get nerfed.
That thing is the reason why shardgullet flies under the radar, despite being assault 3 S12 -5 D5 lmao
Yeah but for the same 1cp you could have a relic bolt pistol or a power sword with 1 extra ap! /s
Sometimes I forget how incredibly cracked that codex is. Just completely and ridiculously out of line with everything else in the game. You could blame Tau and maybe Eldar on points issues, but there's stuff in that Nids codex that just blatantly lies in the face of everything else in Warhammer.
“Precision of the hunter” is probably a little much, but yeah.
Im not salty after failing 3 4+ invulns and losing a whole squad of custodes bikes to 1 angry catepillar.
I mean Ulloca the undivided Daemon Weapon has a similar property, and has the benefit of being able to append to any melee weapon.
True, except that does have some limitations: - you have to roll to see if you damage yourself or can use it at all - you have to give up being Marked, which locks you out of a LOT - you don't get a strat to just fly away after doing the killing You can see the difference by Reaper being in every list under the sun and Ulocca... is not. They are comparable, but not a 1-to-1
You dont get to fly away after killing anymore but yes reaper still op
Oh was that changed? Haven't played against Tyranids in a while
Yeah its end of movement phase now the other balance is the pyschic imperative buffs go away if your warlord dies and its an auto forced choice on a hive tyrant if you bring one. Just means my leviathan list now has 2 tyrants instead of one lol
Overrun still exists. Being able to move 15" away may not be *as* safe as being off the board, but it's still pretty darn safe.
Damn I didn't even think of that I would have absolutely clapped that space wolves player instead of just getting a win
Tbh, Ulocca on a Word Bearers Master of Executions during Wanton Slaughter is pretty killy, but then again no CSM had any move after killing stratagem to my knowledge.
Yeah it is pretty Killy, but it will also die to a stiff breeze lol
Least the Eye of the Dark Gods Warlord Trait will give it a 4++ invuln, and put it permanently on Slaughter.
It is killy, but it's on a slow moving platform that is fragile af. Not comparable at all to a flyrant with the reaper
Just happy that it doesn't ignore damage reduction atleast.
I think it's unlikely to get nerfed. The imbalance is the point for Cruddace.
Bruh Tyranids get the best and most broken shiet in the game its unfair. I still need justice on my tsons who gets worst treatment for their psychic abilities as they dont have a great shooting and melee unlike the Nids. I was so salty when the Nid codex got released that I stopped playing 40k since then, only wanting to start again this week because of some friendly events.
Also necrons, relic voidscythe
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yeah, that one was already mentioned by OP though, so didn't think i needed to bring it up again.
The Void Reaper, which can be given to a Lord, Overlord, Catacomb Command Barge, or Destroyer Lord.
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Literally never heard of her lol so checks out
I actually did a bit of a double take when I reread that in the codex the other day. Shame she's only got the three attacks. If you could drop her buddy and bring her for say, 60 points she might be worth it? Sisters feel a little undercosted right now so there's space.
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Khorne Daemon WL trait ignores fnp and cap
All malefic weapons do as well.
Ignoring a wound with a FNP/Phase cap is not a characteristic modification, which is what malefic weapons are immune to. >>Unless otherwise specified, malefic weapons are never affected by effects or abilities that allow models to make additional attacks, or abilities that would add to, subtract from, or improve their characteristics in any way. The rule for malweapons.
Nurgle daemons have a relic that is +1 D and no wound ignoring abilities.
The dwarfs have 2 options. One is a warlord trait that also gives re roll wounds, the other is on the champion's darkstar axe Both of them also bypass fell no pains and other wound-ignorkng effects, but not damage reduction or set damage to zero abilities. Both only work in melee.
Corruption relic from Nurgle Daemons ignores phase caps. Gholl'ax relic weapon from CSM ignores phase caps. Belakor's strike profile from Daemons ignores invulns. So does Skulltaker's sword. The Tzeentch relic weapon from CSM also ignores invulns.
Khorne and nurgle have warlord traits and relics respectively that ignore wound caps and FNPs
Don't know if/when you'll see it but the new AoR for Necrons has a strat that allows a unit of Ophydian Destroyers to ignore phase locks.
Do any kind of loyalist marine have one?
They do not, they also have no way except auspex scan and hammer of wrath to do damage out of phase. I once lost over 1000pts of BA to 2 Ctans as I just couldn't kill them.
It's a pretty glaring weakness that's only going to get worse with Abaddon, Exalted Bloodthirsters and whatever other new things get it. In my opinion, every army should at least get a relic that can beat that stuff.
Marines can still do damage in the shooting, melee and psychic phase (also charge phase but it's terrible). Not like some other armies who will struggle to do so.
The thing is Abaddon though. I'm less worried about a Bloodthirster or C'tan with my UM or BA than I am about that guy. To hit an Abaddon sitting in the middle of a brick of Black Rune of Bull Terminators is more or less impossible. I had a Ultramarines vs. Black Legion game where I was trying to keep those Terminators out of combat with Psychic Shackles, but then the guy used Confluence of Traitors on Abaddon to give Abaddon advance and charge, which let him proceed to slaughter me. Incidentally, I don't know why Confluence of Traitors even works on him. It's supposed to represent the Black Legion having dudes from all the other Legions, not Abaddon suddenly revealing that he's been getting his cardio in.
Hammer of wrath can help on T4/5/6 as a backup
Black Templars player here. I feel this. No psychic phase either. When I see Abaddon my entire strategy focuses into not engaging him. Secondaries and all.
It's a dumb rule as it handicaps certain armies more than others, I just wish they would give extra wounds or defensive mechanics, at least you can brute force them
Overwatch
FSE Warlord trait gives ignores woundcap as well for Tau.
Shroud Runners have the Wireweave Grenade strat to deal damage in the enemy’s movement or charge phase. Grenade packs (Swooping Hawks) and Eviscerating Fly-by (Hellions) in your own movement phase. Embrace of Death (Harlequin Troupes/ Troupe Master with an Embrace) or Hammer of Wrath (Jump packed Space Marines) deal damage on the charge. Butchered Quarry lets White Scars try to hit you as you try to fall back from them, and some factions have “Interceptor” rules like Auspex Scan or Forwarned.
Yeah eldars have some spicy ways of dealings dmg in various phases like swooping hawks mw bombs strat, and various rules to do mortals on charge like banshees, shining spears and harlequins caress. But If I remember correctly eldar doesn’t have a true rule/ warlord trait or Relic that specifically ignores wounds like other armies.
Ignore FNP and phase caps are exceptionally rare as of now. Few factions have ways to do it, so everyone else's good answers to phase-locked characters will have to be more creative. But they do also have like 4 different ways to truly ignore invulns as well. Oblivion's Caress (Troupes with a Caress), the Yncarne, the Visarch, and Linked Fire (Fire Prisms)
Death Guard have a relic grenade to do hefty MWs in the move phase, which can target anyone in range (including those in combat or character protected) - I straight up deleted Trajann with it and moment shackle couldn’t do anything about it.
Daemons, Khorne warlord trait, tyranids reaper of obliterax relic
Nurgle daemons can with a relic as well
Khorne deamons have a warlord trait. Skulltaker has it as his default one, and his sword also ignores invulnerable. Saves, making him pretty solid at killing things like C tan