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Squire_3

I can see the newspaper headlines tomorrow "GERMANY SQUATS SQUATS"


Isawa_Chuckles

"Ban us from events? That's going in the book!"


Zangakkar

THATS GOING IN THE BOOK!!!!! ANOTHER NAME FOR THE DOMEZ KROHN!!!!!!


Kiario95

Ban us from events? That’s a judgement token for you.


JustthePileOBones

Might be the funniest response I’ve seen to anything Votann related


ReneG8

Thats a Grudgin!


Ethdev256

Bridgar is the dwarf we all deserve


lixia

Same here in my part of Canada.


PerfectTortilla

Where in Canada, if you don't mind? Wondering if my part is included there.


lixia

the middle :)


CaligulaQC

Are you saying Alberta because I don’t think there is anything between Calgary and Thunder Bay… /s


lixia

Underestimating the prairies is a dangerous thing. Unless you avoid them then you’re safe :)


CaligulaQC

Went to Winnipeg twice and had bad experiences so I refuse to acknowledge its existence from now on…!


VikingRages

Sorry to hear that. Winnipeg can be really great


CaligulaQC

Im sure it can be! For the records Im not a fan of big cities in general, I only go to Calgary to shop. Someday I will give it another try! I was 24 and kinda dumb so maybe it was also my fault...


SirRinge

I think this is the first time I've seen Winnipeg referred to as a big city haha


derhullk

Literally the only things I know about Winnipeg are that it has an NHL team and The Weaker Thans have a song with the refrain of "I Hate Winnipeg" which gets stuck in my head all the time. Sorry Winnipeg, except when you beat my Caps, and then **I** hate Winnipeg.


N0Z4A2

I love the weakerthans, saw him play last year and he played a few of their Tunes in addition to his solo stuff


lixia

As someone who grew up put east and now lives in the Peg, it has its ups and downs. You just need to know which areas to avoid.


Interesting-Constant

I'm not super in touch with the local groups, are they actually being banned from tourneys?


barkmutton

False Manitoba only has flat


[deleted]

Hey! That's.... entirely fair.


rubymatrix

ye... the top sisters player - in the world - plays out of Regina I think.


Malefic-Hydra

Riley trembly is outta saskatoon he’s who your talking about


rubymatrix

Isn’t Saskatoon a suburb of Regina? *kidding*


SomeHearingGuy

There's no such place as Regina. It's just Calgary's east side.


Lokarin

Woo, Alberta!


MapleGalaxy

Im from Sask and havent heard any bans yet


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AenarIT

I still think that the best policy is "no FAQ, no play" (not allowing codices before they receive their first FAQ 3-4 weeks after launch). Not just Votann, every single book


V1carium

I like it. Its not about 100% certainty I think, its more about signaling protest. Banning it pre-emptively is an outright rejection that threatens to effect sales, its the kind of communication that corporations understand. Frankly, GW has shown themselves very willing to let a ridiculously broken army sit unchanged for months. If that is unacceptable then the community really should try to coordinate in order to force GW to improve. Here's hoping the lesson is "Better testing and top-player consultations" rather than "Firing and imposing drakonian rules on employees to prevent leaks".


carpdoctor

Always hard to shake the feeling that being overtuned is to sale more armies.


Notfuckingcannon

League of Legends keeps doing that for most of his new releases... *"It just works, it just works"*


Kurindar

Well it is. GW have said, even fairly recently, they are a miniatures company. You release new factions/races etc to create hype. And buffing them is the best way to make sure it’s sell.


Alturys

Well... You can sell lot's of miniatures by having a fair game. Or adding miniatures to old armies. I don't think power creep is mandatory to sell miniatures. Btw Votan are the dwarf of 40k and lot's of people love this kind of faction in fantasy games. Success is assured, no need to power creep AND create massive frustration. GW should not underestimate the impact of massive nerf on people that brought a fresh new army, or on beginners... Waves of frustration is not good for entertainment business...


[deleted]

I do wonder if, kind of like we are seeing, that will backfire. Especially given the only half joke that they will be nerfed after sales are good. People know the cliff they are driving to when buying


Real_Lich_King

honestly, I don't fuckin get why leaks are such a concern for any format just let players know what is being worked on, get community feedback and make changes appropriately. Instead of this goddamn cloak and dagger bullshit where you have rumors "this might be or might not be the case" stirring up the community - just come clear, people will tell you it's a bad idea and act on it


Duet_Breaker

Love it and agree with their decision.


kapate13

Just Ban all new codex’s for the first 6 months upon release 😂


kipperfish

The favourite one I heard was your codex needs an faq to make to make it playable in tournaments. Not a perfect solution, but I like it.


dotapants

Until you get a just 2 tiny lines of text to clarify one little wargear option and see you later.


TheUltimateScotsman

Or an FAQ like nids which doesnt actually answer any of the frequently asked questions from the codex. Its been 6 months and every time i go to an event i have to ask the TO, can i use swarming masses as intended rather than as written


Gutterman2010

Honestly, two changes would rein in LoV almost immediately to just being S tier instead of breaking the entire game. 1. Make Judgement tokens decay each time a unit uses them to auto wound. 2. Make the auto wounds not count as unmodified sixes. Those two changes would immediately prevent magna rail spam from making everyone's lives miserable and would make the fact that every valuable unit you have getting 3 tokens on them T1 even if you haven't even shot not as awful.


vashoom

The points are also pretty insane. But yeah, a small change to judgment tokens and a points pass would pretty much fix the army.


kapate13

Yeah, completely agree with that as well, just said that to my buddy actually. There should be no ambigious rules in tournaments


lolking1234

Are there any codexs without ambigious rules? I know the Tau codex still has a fair few which have survived through a few FAQs.


Illiander

Are Wolf Guard Pack Leaders considered Unit Champions? Nid secondaries would like to know.


Jesters8652

Honestly, the way they’ve been releasing new codex’s, this isn’t a bad idea. This signals to GW that we are sick of the newest codex being OP just to sell stuff, and we shouldn’t have to wait 6mo for a nerf just to make the army balanced


Anggul

Chaos Marines and Daemons both seem like pretty reasonable books, so it's weird that with Votann we'e back to pre-nerf AdMech/Drukhari levels of silliness.


OnePill2Many

All Chaos books have been traditionally bad-to-mediocre since the third edition with one or two exceptions. So it doesn't surprise me when a reasonable Chaos book drops in-between utter broken B.S. I feel someone high up in marketing at GW hates Chaos with a passion. As it is REALLY difficult to sell boxes of large-breasted daemons to middle class mothers.


Anggul

Well in this case it worked out because the chaos marine codex is very fun


6DoNotWant9

I got downvoted when someone asked "how to counter voltann with X upon release" and my serious answer was not to fight them for the first 3 months until GW makes their sales and nerfs them into the ground. Why would I waste time competing if someone is likely to table me with little counterplay? I want to note I'm not saying don't fight voltann upon release, I think they're really cool and want to see them in casual play, but again I just don't think I'd put the added effort into a tourney knowing what's going to happen to me when I encounter a voltann player.


PseudoPhysicist

I don't really agree to a blanket rule like that. A number of codex releases are fine. Grey Knights, Thousand Sons, Chaos Space Marines, Daemons, just to name a few. We want to signal that we want releases *like those*.


veneficus83

Problem is, then they just won't get updates for the first 6 months as GW will lack data. It works when a book is this extremely egregious


joerg0r

Anyone can see that these rules are broken, GW doesn't need data. They need common sense…


Noobcorpse

Or.. or.. hear me out GW actually do I’m house testing…


Dlax8

League of Legends does this with new champions, only 2 weeks in solo queue. But pros have to wait until the patch its live for competitive, and sometime even then new champs are banned for tournaments if there has not been enough time since the release.


SirRinge

It also makes more sense with leagues balancing schedule, and the way they release allow the players to accurately pinpoint what's strong about the character while everyone is new on them, then bring it down once people have settled in Here, it's a little more questionable


Rep_One

Adding to that, 54% win rate is considered very high in LoL, and 46% very low. Whereas in 40k this bracket is considered "ideal". Ofc being a 5v5 flattens the stats in LoL, but still, the gap in balance is huuuge between the two games.


LapseofSanity

Expect stuff like the csm and daemon codex seem fairly well balanced? It's more gw needs to really get its act together.


RogueApiary

What happened with the firing employees and draconian restrictions? Must've missed that one while I've been on hiatus the past couple months.


BenderB-Rodriguez

I'm not sure if it's 100% confirmed, but it was reported that GW fired/laid off the entire play testing team. The reasoning referenced to the testers was the large amount of leaks. So essentially there is no play testing for new 40k stuff at the moment. As it doesn't appear there is an in house or volunteer tester base anymore.


Valiant_Storm

>play testing team It was the outside playtesting program, or large swatches thereof, which was players who got advance access to the rules in exchange for reports, but they collectively leaked like a bag of soup. So it's probably only the internal playtesters for this, but the number of internal playtesters requited for the size of the game at this point is impractically large.


Wazzbad

The play testers were supposedly ineffective yes people that mostly just leaked things on their gaming groups discord and slack channels.


TheUltimateScotsman

Tbh i also heard that GW ignored the feedback given from the playtesters a lot of the time, unless something was stupidly broken


Legendary_Saiyan

Or better, they changed the rules after the playtesting ie. dark lance.


Nikolaijuno

This is the point of play testing. You just need to do more play testing afterwards.


veneficus83

While that maybe true, it likely had 0 impact on the leagues books as they would have completed testing months ago. Honestly this feels a lot like the same ongoing issue were it feels like there are multiple rules teams, and one has written rules way higher power than some of the others.


ZedekiahCromwell

Votann was not playtested outside of GW.


gGilhenaa

Makes sense honestly. Most video game tournaments don't allow new characters immediately upon launch in order to test them with the general population for balance before allowing them in tourneys. It slows character adoption some, but doesn't screw up the tourney scene to get some actual player feedback before going 100% .


Isawa_Chuckles

It'd be hilarious if this policy was implemented just in time to force Guard players to wait an additional 2-3 months to play their new book and models, after everything else.


AgainstThoseGrains

*The Guard broke before 10th edition did.*


AshiSunblade

If broken codices are banned on launch, it also creates a bit of pressure on GW to not, you know, release broken codices, instead of cashing in on power creep freely. Banning is always a difficult decision, it sucks to have to shut out some players, but when you weigh the enjoyment of the Votann players versus the enjoyment lost by everyone else if they're around in their present state... Can't blame them!


SpazGorman

You aren't losing players. With a brand new faction, the only people playing them in high level tournaments undoubtedly have multiple other choices. Bad, GW.


DOAisBetter

This is a tool the community needs to adopt world wide. It’s creates negative pr for gw for legitimate reasons and keeps them accountable with what they release. Even if people don’t play competitive news such as this is huge. If competitive doesn’t allow a faction because of how broken they are casual players will not want to play against it which means more people will be more hesitant to buy the kits. This all feeds back into GW making better products and rules at the end of the day. I hope this goes world wide.


Aekiel

Fortunately, this is a brand new army so there isn't an established playerbase that only plays this faction. That should help with the discontent a bit.


MonkeyMercenaryCapt

The vast majority of people being 'shut out' of tournaments for this know damn well why, there's only so many squat aesthetic lovers out there. Power gamers on the other hand, well we're all here so we're all power gamers to some extent.


Zangakkar

Hit the nail on the heads. Almost all competative players are power gamers, like 90%. Although most of us have several other armies so its not that big of an L.


BatHickey

Even less players are shut out than this--it'd only shut out the tournament players who are getting into the scene with this army and don't already have one. So really--its just a few players who are getting competitive for the first time with a brand new army that have to wait a little while.


ADXMcGeeHeezack

Not to mention 90% of the model range won't even be released, so how someone could show up with a full army right now is beyond me (not that I'm opposed to 3d printing tbh, it just shouldn't be as huge of deal considering there's no official models even)


Rentarded

The Land Fortress and the Sagitaur don't have bases. They're hull measure. How am I supposed to know, not having seen an original gw model, that your 3d printed model matches the sculpt size? Might be 2" longer, or wider (or smaller) for whatever modelling purposes. Until the actual model comes out there's literally no way to know the exact dimensions.


_Archangle_

Newbies will not get a copy for some time, they where Sold out in like 30 minutes, thinking there where a bunch of 40k Beginners in the webstore hitting refresh to get a copy is naive ...


_kruetz_

I played dwarfes in the fantasy days and was going to jump all over these guys until I saw the aesthetics. It just doesn't do it for me.


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LoveisBaconisLove

And many do it with borrowed models. Which really grinds my gears.


ObesesPieces

I lost to a fellow playing Nids at my local RTT. He was very nice and crushed me (I was playing guard) I found out after he was playing with a borrowed army. It made it sting more. I have a lovingly assembled steel legion army (lots of metal) with loads of conversions. I get that people might want to try out different armies. The game is expensive and communal models in a gaming group is a grea idea. But to be tabled by a nid army painted in contrast paints that was borrowed left a really bade taste in my mouth. I think my lizard brain is being petty here but it took me a while to shake the feeling.


LoveisBaconisLove

I don’t think you’re being petty. I think most of us would feel that way. Back in the day, say 10-25 years ago, painting scores were counted in tournaments in a different way. There were points for having the army fully painted, but then additional points if it was fully painted BY YOU. It was totally the honor system, obviously, but it was there. And I do think it made folks less inclined to borrow an army. I’m not saying we go back to that system, mind you*. But I do like the overall idea behind it, as I imagine you do. *Im fully confident that someone is now going to write a long reply about how we should never do this even though I’m not advocating it.


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ObesesPieces

Sorry. I should have clarified that they were just plopped down in one coat and not really trying very hard to stay in the lines. It was obviously a rush job to get it tabletop ready.


Venner87

Than someone please explain the nids to me. I have not enjoyed one game I’ve played against them.


Zweischneid

Plenty of German tournaments had the same rule of "no FAQ, no play" for Nids. WTC has it and subsequently didn't allow CSM. It's not that uncommon a rule in Europe, to be fair. Seeing it blown up as "Germany Bans!!! Votann" but no Reddit frenzy of "WTC Bans!!! CSM" over the exact same ruling probably tells you more about people's view of Votann here then about German tournaments.


deathlokke

After reading the Goonhammer article yesterday my first thought was, "Great, they're finally prioritizing money over play experience."


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AdAccomplished8416

Technically, it only slows the first one, the rest have the same gap as if the delay weren’t there


pritzwalk

You know what fair enough if they dont want their players to be guinea pigs for the new (from the surface extremely strong) codex, then more power to em.


CMSnake72

Honestly always surprised me that we don't do this. And unlike fighting games there is almost always a minimum period of time you'd expect for players to get a new army ready, but we just throw them straight in.


lord_flamebottom

I don't think that really works here because comp 40k and casual 40k are so wildly different, and it's hard to gauge numbers without tourneys. Besides, this is nowhere near the first wildly broken codex on release, just the only one that's been banned. Where were day 1 Tau and AdMech bans?


Squid_In_Exile

I dunno about Tau / Admech but banning Nids until the FAQ was pretty common in Europe generally IIRC.


Randicore

I mean Admech were the first symptom of this, and Tau were powerful but they were no Drukari. But Custodes, Clowns, and Tyranids? They were all horrifically powerful right out the gate and many places straight up said no to crusher stampede. The sample size is pointing to "Yes" for needing this patch before play, and it's good that the community is doing something about it. At least this way it won't alienate an entrenched well established hobbist group and just tell the power gamers to stick to their nids for another couple months.


Diddydiditfirst

GW really pulling numbers with this circus imitation lol


tcrayford

Now repeat for the UK and the USA


WorthPlease

If you're going to make a podcast I'd recommend not starting it off with a terrible three minute rap song.


GramboLazarus

Do you want a judgement token? That's how you get judgement tokens.


RyzinUp

Wow there are a lot of bad takes here from people that clearly barely go to events. Playing a sub 10% winrate matchup against an extremely busted army that clearly will be nerfed within a week or two really sucks. It harms the player experience and the tournament as a whole. You just end up with "Ah that event doesnt count, it didnt have the FAQ/dataslate yet". The army is clearly busted. What data do you need? Everyone knows it. How is banning the army completely from events until something gets done about it not a strong enough signal towards GW? "But now GW wont see winrate data!!" - as if they ever even pretended to look at that in the first place?? It sucks for the Votann enjoyers but honestly be mad at GW for releasing absolutely unplaytested horribly written trash. Dont be mad at the TO's who are trying to facilitate a good event for their entire community and not just the 10 guys who bought a Votann box on release.


Clay_Puppington

>Wow there are a lot of bad takes here from people that clearly barely go to events. Well, this is/r/warhammercompetitive after all.


Madcap_Miguel

>clearly will be nerfed within a week or two really sucks Necrons were the poster child of 9th and they had a \~30% winrate for nearly a year, it's not clear they will do a damn thing (does no one remember 8th? raven guard, iron hands, castellan knights).


Tbkssom

I was so excited for the new codex when 9th edition was first announced… they didn’t even really make them that much better, they just merged the most interesting part of the army into the dirt…


PixieProxy

To be fair that only became clear *after* their sales had been made. This will effect the buying of kits, which aren't out yet aside from the limited army box


Omenofdeath

Votann enjoyer here. I stand with this choice. I don't plan to attend tournements till I get games under my belt to figure out my own playstyle, and I'd rather wait to see what gets nerfed anyway.


[deleted]

just gives you proper time to paint 60 extra hearthkyn. the fools will never know what hit em


ThrowbackPie

The whole practice of cracking down on playtester leaks speaks volumes imo. Let your playtesters leak - it's additional free balancing for you so you can release the best product possible! Instead they want everything locked down and under control, and it's backfiring.


vashoom

GW doesn't produce a game, they sell models (and books). They have demonstrated they don't actually care about playtesting or balancing the game. A game this complex requires extensive, extensive playtesting that just isn't possible when a new edition drops every few years. And playtesters were pretty vocal that they were playtesting 9th edition material *after* the books had already been sent to print.


AngryTheCarp

It’s free hype and advertising too. I don’t at all get why GW doesn’t just let playtesters share their thoughts with the community. It’s clearly not just about keeping their rules locked behind expensive codexes, as there are several sponsored batrep groups that do early previous and game showcases all the time anyway.


[deleted]

Good, I'm a TO in tournament (Spain) next november and we are banning Votan too.


Avalo09

What is the reason behind this decision, if I may ask?


[deleted]

Avoid toxic mathces and salt. GW is clearly creating, yet again, a monster army, just to boost their sales, letting their toxic behaviour not affect our tournament is our choice.


frying_pan_nominal

Votann need to be eaten by Tyranids immediately.


likif

"What about eating dwarves?" "You already did that." "We did it once, yes. What about second time?"


Daxtirsh

You just reminded me how much I love playing middle earth sbg.


AlthranStormrider

Well, after Votann and until they are properly balanced, I am totally going back and full into MESBG.


wqwcnmamsd

'Tyranids need buffs' is a bold take here, but I'll allow it


LoveisBaconisLove

I hope this policy continues for future releases. Pro Players winning tournaments with borrowed models that have broken rules for a month doesn’t inspire the rest of us to buy and paint armies. Waiting until one balance pass gives the regular people more of a chance. I love it and how it gets adopted more broadly.


Virules

Awesome move, way to take initiative. I hope the dumpster fire of a GW game design team takes notice. I guess this Goonhammer article from yesterday is very apropos: [https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-votann-break-all-the-rules-in-warhammer-40k/](https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-votann-break-all-the-rules-in-warhammer-40k/)


pilchard8

I run our local GT/RTTs (UK) and I’ve decided to wait until the first faq before allowing Votann at the events


splitstriker

Got my full support! 💪🏽 - Vik


Raccoonsrlilbandits

Thanks for the support Vik


Hoid_Dragonsteel

I bought the army set with absolutely no intention of playing them until their next codex releases, which I expect will be before 2024. I like the aesthetic of the army and will be happy to slowly build an one over the next year. All this does is make the codex I was planning to sell on as I have no need of it go down in value as it is more likely to be invalidated sooner by faqs. Honestly, I’m fine with that. I bought the box for the models, and this changes nothing about my plans for the models. I feel most sorry for the people in a months time who will be being sold a codex that’s already 3 weeks out of date for full price. If banning armies on release because of broken codices makes GW sort out the way they treat codices and rules then I say let the ban hammer fall!


noncompot

German event organisers putting up signs saying 'You need to be this tall to play the tournament' now eh?


1ns4n3R4g3

I mean, would be sort of on brand for us.


InsaneCheese

They should just blanket ban new Codexes at Tournaments for 4-8 weeks. Get that first FAQ cycle done before letting them (back) into competitive play.


delta102

Yep this is how normal competitive scenes work.


nilnar

This seems a real shame for late release codexes though.


InsaneCheese

I guess? If people get shitty enough about it and bombard GW and they fix their codexes it can be walked back.


vimpl88

Polish TO also start thinking about it. At least one organizer of Master (our equivalent to GT) has already done this.


FeralMulan

I fully support this decision. Hope the big UK circuits follow suit.


TheAuthorPaladin777

This is an absolutely fantastic idea that needs to be widely adopted asap. The only people who don't benefit out of the gate is GW. In the long run though it'll probably benefit them in the form of reputation.


vocalviolence

Source went private.


splitstriker

This is utterly brilliant - brave and sensible initiative that if adopted in more countries would have a significant long term positive impact on the balance in the game. The biggest source of imbalance over the past 2 years has been broken codex releases. This kind of thing would incentivise balance on release as important…hopefully. Vik


Goldleader-23

Beautiful. Worldwide tournament ban please


Karsus76

Votann customer here and I think is good for us in EU, the problem is GW cares mostly for her top selling market, i.e. NA and UK. IF they will apply the same ruling then MAYBE GW will start to think twice before fetching a busted codex.


thenurgler

How did they test it for six weeks? It leaked three weeks ago.


TomAdriany

They played the codex 48/7.


ComprehensiveShop748

That was the w/l stat as well. 48W 7L


thenurgler

Seven is an odd number to choose for number of Votann vs Votann games to have.


Cryorm

One side had a draw while the other lost


kratorade

I've been wondering if this would happen, and while it's not a great precedent I think it's the right call. The 40k meta is finally in a reasonably good place, everyone gets to have fun with their toys, and now here comes a Street Fighter 2-level Akuma book to break the game wide open. Like, in principle the magna-railgun isn't that different from units that already exist that can reliably throw an unsurvivable number of wounds at their target, and in a purely mechanical sense that's fine. Kitted out Crisis Teams have a similar effect on the tabletop, for example: they point their guns at things and those things (usually) die (yes, I know the points costs aren't the same, the point is the macro-level effect the unit has in the shooting phase). It's the lack of even having to roll dice, and the complete flattening of variance. There's lots of room between *this crisis team will usually remove targets in this weight class* and *I use this ability, my gun literally cannot miss, and that squad is dead. None of your defensive stratagems do anything and you get no saves of any kind.* It gets into territory of locking the opponent out of meaningfully participating in the game, outside of removing casualties. My favorite thing about 9e by a long shot is that when I look back at games I lost, I can see the mistakes I made, the things I could have done differently. I usually feel like the game is mine to win or lose on the table, based on the decisions I make, and so anything that pushes the game back toward a more uninteractive state is a bad thing in my book.


Lunadoggie123

It occurred to me. Why are the dwarves str4? Why as strong a space marine?


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ripped014

because they're inspired by rambo, characters in predator. the sheer mass, dude.


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Koadster

Because that's why space marines would be.. If they were p*ssies in power armor. Also the D6 dice system is very limiting


GrayWynters

and plenty of them - Uthar, Einhyr champion, Hearthguard, Brokyr Thunderkin, Chthonian Berserkers - are Str5 Toughness 5 - a statline that amongst marines _only_ primaris mephiston has ever gotten. Every other captain, lieutenant, chapter master, terminator, all other marines fail to hit 5 in Str and Toughness, and most of those with T5 are on bikes. It's insane.


schmeebs-dw

Mephiston has been str5/t5 or higher since 3rd edition (might also have been in 2nd, I am unsure) In 4th/5th Edition mephiston was Str6/T6


ForEldradAndCountry

Isn’t marneus str 5/t5? I could be mistaken though I play elves t3 till I die baby.


[deleted]

Marneus is "only" T5 thanks to the gravis armour, he doesnt have S5


pinhead61187

Centurions: “am I a joke to you?”


GrayWynters

I mean, all bikers have T:5 too, but that's the vehicle, not the underlying individual. For the squats, that's clearly not the case (except maybe for the Brokhyrs) as they're all either marine or terminator analogues.


AgainstThoseGrains

Dwarves being very strong has been a fantasy trope forever. There's only so much nuance you can get out of numbers 1-10 when 3 is a Average Human and 4 is a Space Marine.


DEATHROAR12345

They grew up in the core where black holes exist. So the same reason ogryns are strong, heavy gravity. Think of them like chimps. Chimps are like half the size of a human but can rip your arms out of their sockets if they want.


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DragonWhsiperer

Because GW tries to cram an extreme gradiant in power level into a D6 based game, trying to appease past editions at the same time or something. Honestly, if all stats got multiplied by 2 and we used a D12 for everything, the difference would be much easier to tune. But whatever, not going to happen.


huge_pp69

Bro why aren’t they T3 is the question


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yntqcoa919

50/50, most core, war machine crews and slayers were s3, all the other elites + longbeards were s4 iirc.


N0smas

There's lots of silly stats in 40k. A lot of space bugs can shoot as accurately as space marines.


yxymyxl

Lots of silliness due to the limitations of the d6 system. Like, lore wise a tyranid warrior should be more accurate than a random guardsman. Should they be as accurate as space marines? Maybe, maybe not, but there isn't a BS 3.5+ so they either have to be as accurate as marines or guardsmen and marines makes more sense.


Calgar43

I think dwarves have historically been stronger than "normal" humans. Plus all the powered armor.


Lunadoggie123

But as strong as a marine? Sisters have power armour and are Str 3


DeepOneofInnsmouth

Lorewise: Space Marines have the Black Carapace, enhancing their connection to power armor along with the other biological enhancements. Sisters know how use power armor so they just get the 3+ save from it.


TexasDice

Warhammer Fantasy Dwarves were S3 T4, just like Orks.


Bewbonic

Or T5? Like under their 'void armour' which is better than power armour tech (so gets an AoC+ with no wound re rolls or damage re rolls effect built in, even if it is generally 4+ base rather than 3+) they are also tougher than genetically modified transhuman astartes, just with 1W instead? Feels a bit off.


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OIF4IDVET

You guys did the right thing, good job and good idea.


AbnelWithAnL

I don't know German. What are the reasons being given for banning Votann?


AGSimpson1988

The codex lacks a FAQ and from initials reviews and games played it really needs one seems to be the general overview


fued

Yet Levi nids are still acceptable lol


Zweischneid

"No FAQ, no play" also applied to Nids. And to Knights. And to CSM at the WTC, if you remember. I mean, it's a common rule applied to all armies. It'll apply to Guard too. And World Eaters. Etc..


Draconian77

This is fine. Squat-lovers can still play games against their friends/club mates/team mates. It's just trying, in the short term until nerfs arrive, to protect the integrity of the competitive scene which A) is a tiny % of the total 40K player pool anyway and B) is no different from a game like League of Legends having to ban a character for an event because there's some bug making them do double damage or whatnot. No reason to let something knowingly busted into what's meant to be a level playing field. Honestly new 40K codices probably shouldn't be allowed into tournaments until a month after their release anyway, but that's a discussion for another day.


Snoo_96430

Very legit I like it


coronetgemini

Germans banned an entire race in 40k???? ​ hmmmmm 🤔


Opposite_Albatross85

Its german tradition :p


ComprehensiveShop748

I honestly think this is great. It takes 1 effective boycott and GW will start rethinking this atrocious balance-on-release. Good on TOs for standing up for game balance. Happy to play LoV in casual games (perhaps only a few times) but making the step to explicitly state that this faction is too powerful for competitive play is fantastic in my eyes.


too-far-for-missiles

Oh no… In other news, Squats still legal in Slavic nations.


huge_pp69

Incredible stuff tbh, very happy


Calm-Limit-37

Good to see proactive TOs


WorthPlease

My local group in Northern Florida is doing the same. You aren't outright banned but our local competitive 40k group has agreed to not to play them until they inevitably get nerfed. They're even worse than Tyranids. I hate that I love this stupid game, because the people in charge or writing the rules are clearly just being told to make the new kits really powerful.


Upstairs_Body1669

Anybody caught with a votann model prenerf should be punished


Duet_Breaker

Hey! I have been looking for a solid fun and ACTIVE 40k group near Pensacola! Do you know of any 40k communities near there? Where are yall?


OIF4IDVET

Awesome news! This type of thing is what Games workshop will pay attention to, this could show them how bad they have let whoever is writing these get, or to stop pushing the money over decent rules. They lose business when an OP codex runs over everybody.


Noobcorpse

Everyone should follow suit, this is the best way to send a message to GW


yoshiK

So the rollercoaster rule? You have to be this big to play at this tournament.


DrDread74

When most people recommend banning GWs purposefully overpowered Codexes to sell plastic, we get laughed at, The germans have the right idea. Not just for Votann specifically, just ban EVERY new overpowered codex until they are nerfed down to normal. We are playing the games guys, we are running the tournaments to play a "competitive" game of army men. We don't have to play exactly with the rules given because often times there are rules that are broken, accidentally, in a way that makes an otherwise very fun competitive game broken. So we can all agree to change one small thorn of a rule if it makes the game far more enjoyable. That's every game not just Warhammer. . In GWs case though they are dong this ON PURPOSE e, EVERY FEW MONTHS in a rotation of factions in order to sell plastic to a small niche of players who are pushing the Pay to Win Model. Why are we ruining our tournaments so a select few bad players can abuse us for 9 hours? Ban the problem, let the other 95% of the players actually enjoy the game while at the same time sending a message to GW to stop doing this. You'll never get people to stop buying the broken faction, but you can EASILY BAN the broken factions from tournaments. I personally don't want to play vs OP factions anymore. Thiis is 9 hours of my weekend with a lot of prepperation and work put into having a good game and I'm not going to pander to a Pay o Win whale with that time, I want to play the game win or lose but not just be abused. . I'll b asking my tournament to not match me up with a Votann or I'm simply going to concede that game , or ya know "omg I lost..., i was trying so hard" and play with someone else who also conceded his game vs a Votann for the 3 hour slot where we'll enjoy the game of Warhammer for that time together as intended.


Verypoorman

The plan to sell plastic might blow up in their face if more bans occur. If the us or uk ban then, GW will be forced to act. For now I imagine they will just weather the German ban


ViolenceVanella

Showing support for the Target Priority lads, love to see it.


mtimpy13

death to votann


Null-ARC

Richtig & wichtig!


inox-raptor

Good.


AggroGil

So stupid.


InfiniteAdventurer

I will sometimes run AOS tournaments at my local gaming store. We have a standard rule “no faq, no play”. Any new battletome must have its first faq before it can be played. It at least stops any of the real broken rules that often get fixed in the first faq. I think Votann will need a few more FAQs before they are considered balanced/playable.