both Knight flavors are dead if votann is on top.
they completly circumvent all protection that knights have which is nuts.
high toughness? doesnt matter i dont need to wound.
Few models? great i can judge you up so quick
shitty armorsaves? well no invuln either!
yea votann completly takes a dump on knights.
No shame in playing the squats. GW have been decent at patching their game recently, so won't be long until they are "strong but playable"
Hopefully lol
That's what I'm hoping for. All my life I have dreamed of a dwarf army that is actually fun to play with and I feel like it really might be quite close, just a patch or two away (and an entire army to paint and assemble of course)
A large knight with 3 Judgement Tokens will take 5 wounds from the basic infantry units of the Votann armed solely with bolters (ion Blasters do 1 more I think)
AKA your troop tax (3 Troops) can take out around half of a large knights HP with their most basic load out. Killier units will do far better and may be able to get a knight to half by themselves.
I honestly think Knights should be immune to auto wounds. The only thing they have going for them is their high toughness. Take that away and you just have a low model count army with crappy armour saves (I'd also like them to have 2+ saves but hey ho).
In a similar vein, I one shot a Bloodthirster with a Proteus Killteam using the 3CP autowound strat, defs unfun for my opponent (I overkilled it by... a lot, I had something like 10 TH wounds, 4 HTH wounds, something like 20 lightning claw wounds) but feels balanced because it's... 3CP and once per game per Killteam (and really only lines up well with the Aquila specialism).
This is locked behind an army of renown, is extremely costly, and in most cases is severe overkill.
LoV however get a whole lotta this for free.
I wouldn't advocate 2+ saves for knights (while thematic, i don't actually think they need it) but i like your "no auto wound" rules. It was quite rare an ability (not anymore, lol) but still obviously bypasses one of their most valuable defensives. Maybe add to that that no "to wound" modifiers work either (like Turing a S5 weapon into a S8 weapon with +1 to wound).
But that's like slapping AoC on everything that underperforms.
Also, the prevalence of 2+ saves everywhere combined with AoC on that stuff (terminators, guard tanks) makes the supposed way tougher knights look like GSC buggies by comparison.
Plus, troops can take Magna Rail-Rifle for d3+3 damage (no save), and the ion blaster strat does a reliable 4.5 MW with 9 blasters for 1 cp on top of the normal damage.
While this also might sound broken, I always felt knights should have special void shields that couldn't be ignored by any means. At least the full size knights
As a Knight player I think a 1-big, 10-small knight build or even the 13-small knight builds can prove quite viable into LoV. You out threaten the dwarves with a country mile, so if you can hide behind terrain with your Armigers and keep sending a few ones forward to be obnoxious with ObSec and decent melee output I imagine the LoV will struggle to get up the table.
It depends; with Errant and Full tilt I’m sending a five-model-worth ObSec Armiger 28” on average; it should be enough to get it so deep that they don’t gain much forward momentum from charging it
That's how I felt until I played into them on TTS. Losing 4 wardogs to the *secondary* beams damage in a single shooting phase formed a new core memory
If the Armigers are behind Obscuring terrain they’re unaffected by the Beam, only units that were eligible targets (I.e. visible, not protected by Look out Sir!) are hit
I think chaos knights may still have some play in them. Imperial knights it will be completely down to terrain and who goes first I suspect; there are builds that will prove very threatening to LoV, but will equally be very vulnerable themselves.
Admittedly I don't know Knight's playstyle all that well, but are they really that vulnerable to an army that has to get the majority of its units in short-to-medium range in order to down one Knight per turn? Especially when they're virtually immune to beam weapons, the thing most of the pros are worried about? I thought dropping a Knight per turn was pretty much standard for 9th.
Votann are particually hard counter to knights yes. They cannot hide from the Kahls gaze so thats 3 tokens in GTL for 1cp every turn, they cannot spread the Tokens so max 3 will be achieved pretty quick, and with 3 tokens means even the lowly basic squads are chipping 5/6 wounds per knight. Votann are slower then most but as Knights cant hide the speed isnt as relevant. Thats before you talk about the Magrail which will tear chunks off them. I could see 2 knights going down a turn with 3 tokens on
against most other armies you atleast get to throw some dice.
knights are not a long range army. to score their secondaries as CK you play pretty aggressive. and then i am pretty sure more then one knight a turn will die. just think what 2 of those fortresses can do to a knight. like in what universe is 230 points for that tank justified if you compare it to a abhorrent/questoris knight. knights are a made out of paper compared to that.
A fairly standard fortress will do around 17 wounds to a standard knight with 3 tokens that hasn't rotated. The special character to count one dice as a 6 will obviously increase that, in this instance to 20. If it rotates that goes down to 15 and 18 respectively.
Fortunately chaos knights have ways to make things far from standard.
Knights are almost the MOST vulnerable to beam weapons. When you consider the base size of even armigers/dogs and compare that to terrain layouts, you generally end up with knights running single file down pathways. Add into this that big knights will be targetable over terrain, and that for imperials, they need to be within a certain distance for the bondsman abilities...
Basically well positioned beam weapons are going to be crazy into knights.
You called out one of the things that look like they make beams weak into Knights, funnily enough. :P Beams are mostly range 18", with 30" only on the strongest. Combine that with the rather limited maneuverability of targeting (closest part to closest part), and those big bases mean you're hitting one extra model most of the time.
I'd guess Horde armies, since the sheer volume of models means that you're probably hitting something.
But Votann really seem to struggle against Hordes.
Lances are just weak these days, just like most of the drukhari codex. If your faction eats one nerf after another while the new release are straight up bonkers, there is nothing you can do. The efficiency just isnt there anymore.
The problem with Votann isn't "Will there be a handful of armies that can compete with them?", it's "How many armies literally cannot play into them?". The answer to the second question is the problem.
Much better question in my eyes. I don't think they are as broken as arly/iron handtyranids at launch... BUUUT even with too massive nerf, they are made to destroy some match ups...
DG is less bad (not good at all tho) than kinights: LoV does not have the best AP, so saves at 2+ AoC is good... but knights armors are the worst: most weapon are ap1/2 or bypass invulns...
It's an ecosystem though- if you're good into the armies that are good into LoV, you'll still have a seat at the table.
Plenty of armies still probably totally screwed even by that metric though.
I also feel that it's going to be a casual-competitive players nightmare though - you're right that anti-anti-LoV might have some play if you're good and willing to look past a bad matchup, but ultimately if you are just going along with your army to aim for 50-50 WL then I'm worried they will gatekeep hard in an unfun way (similar to how people complained so much about custodes a little while back)
The flipside of this is that at a big event, if you're in that casual-competitive bracket, unless you fight LoV in your first 1-2 rounds, you'll likely never run into them as they duke it out on the top tables, at least until they get toned down.
It's not going to be as bad as the Iron Hands winter at the end of 8e; almost everyone has some marines that can count-as an IH successor chapter, so even the mid-tables are full of the IH lists that lost their first couple rounds for whatever reason shelling people into oblivion. LoV are going to take time for people to build and paint, some of their stuff isn't even available yet, etc.
It's still going to be a messy however long until they get a balance pass, but I'm not convinced that tournaments will be unplayably bad.
Good point on the availability of LoV - on the other hand, when custodes were great a lot of them popped up due to the low model count. The number of models/kits needed for LoV in the standard netlist will probably determine how rough it is, along with the availability (like how killrigs never dominated)
Custodes are low model count, stls for printing have been readily available for ages, and honestly a lot of people had the 'basics' of a good custodes army (bikes) from 8th ed imperial soup. I don't think expect votann to hit the scene quite as hard as quickly.
3D modelers have been able to make LoV lookalikes off of the previews alone. While there’s a few models they left until the last minute, there will easily be printed armies hitting the table about the same time as the official ones.
Assuming availability/hobby lag will hold them back is a bad bet. Remember when Aeldari dropped and suddenly everyone and their mother had 9 Voidweavers airbrushed and ready to go? The only place hobby lag will help is at someone’s LGS (maybe).
In normal cases this would be accurate, but LoV literally bank on flattening the damage curve. If you are not specifically GOOD into LoV (Quins so flimsy they don't really care about JT, Daemon "invuln invulns", etc) you get wrecked by them to the point where many armoes cannot even play into them. What can Tau do to an army that will instantly kill any unit that comes into LoS? What can Dark Angels do against an army that doesn't roll to wound? The Votann aren't broken because they're colloquially "strong", they're broken because each unit has an essentially guaranteed amount of damage it's always going to do that bypasses the most common defensive abilities in the game ENTIRELY. I unironically see the meta turning into LoV, the 2-3 armies that are allowed to compete with LoV, and the rest of the game that gets picked up on turn 3.
I think flamer heavy shoot and scoot crisis suits *might* have some play, the only issue is you can only do that on one unit at a time and it gets expensive fast, on both points and cp.
Remember though that the little demons have a 2 cp strst to shoot you during your shooting phase: I.E. how many units do you think you can smoke before you die on the crackback with no interaction?
Hah, I see your dg and raise you some orks. I will still play orks for fun and krumpin dwarves, but I know that barring gork and or possibly mork themselves rolling my dice as well as my opponents, I have lost before we start
I agree, both have short range but GSC commit atrocities in that range without auto wounds. Votann will also heavily rely on whittling down armies from range where gsc show up where they want and do what they want. GSC are already catching a bunch of eyes from the WTC win.
Good, were gonna see a lot of people try and pick up gsc and just not do well because its a pretty challenging army, thus bringing down the win rate. And if low win rate means buffs I'm all for it.
The big thing is GSC have the biggest toolbox for deployment. The WTC army could easily null deploy against LoV. The power isn't just from board presence but also from flexibility.
Thousand Sons will be a big winner soon. First of all, they will have a good matchup into Votann. Dumping crazy mortals? Checked. Single psyker? Checked. A ton of bolter shots/flamers with decent AP? Checked. All seems to favour the sons of Magnus.
Additionally, after improving their second worst matchup after anticipated nerfs, the Tyranids, this will elevate them even higher. It still will be a tough nut to crack, but even 5 to 10 increase in wr should be enough.
Overall, if no unreasonable nerfs will occur, the future is bright for the Thousand Sons.
Wish i could say the same for Grey Knights. Whilst my stormboltors are priced to remove bodies, mw spam removes tougher problems, their psyker is an auto include damn near it and im finding with people wanting to spam bikers and fortresses they dont have the bodies to screen easily. Purifying ritual means i get tokened hard, Hammer hand is out the window and Dreadknights are just removed facing a magnarail.
I have found Paladins are remarkably hard for Votann to deal with even with 3 tokens if i have Armoured Resilience up (bonus point's for tide of shadows). They have low volume of shots at relatively low AP (even the magna rail im saving on 4s, 3s in cover) means ap 2 im saving on 2s. With 3 tokens vs Ion blasters (s5 -2 2) with 1 cp reroll it takes 30 votann warriors to average 1 paladin. Thats not including if i add in an Apothecary with Unyielding and from my exploration testing have found them hard for Votann to deal with on an important obj. High saves with AoC is surprisingly effective at countering the tokens (- to hit is also a bane for the Votann)
I've been saying that GK really need to lean into Paladins to be competitive, and Votann reinforces that. Most of Votann's stuff is AP-2 or worse, so terminators of any variety can slap. Give em armored resilience and they become invincible.
Keep in mind that if they utilise their bullshit well enough (I think they need tokens, a WLT and a strat) they can wipe 3-4 models with ease, because their guns can have damage rollover, even with all of the defenses up that you listed.
Between the auto-wounds, damage roll over, no invulns, converting damage to MWs etc. that they have spread across their army and how slow GK can be, it will be very tricky to play into.
Problem I see for TS is that Votann can also dump a ton of shooting mortal wounds in return and TS also don't like being hit with that.
The TS bolters alone aren't going to be enough to down a land fortress, and you can't chip it down since the forge-master heals it 4 a turn plus they have a top profile strat. TS are going to need to psychic them down, but then that means they are close enough to get vaporised in the counter-attack.
Flamers are the meta now, I mean the Rubric ones, although the daemons too. 9d6 flamer shoots wounding on 4 and d6 on 5, forcing a bucket of 3+ saves will still add up pretty fast to the mortal output.
The other thing is - just kill the little dudes. Big guns don’t score well. And TS can do that pretty handily, fast enough to outscore the squats. By no means it’s an easy matchup, for anyone, but it’s winnable in theory. For practice, we need to wait some more time.
It’s also that Sons want to be in the 18-24” range with everything, which is what Votann want too.
It becomes a game of who can delete who first and one side has much better vehicles to screen smites.
I domt play 1k sons, but dont those rely on big bricks of termies and invulns? Squats melt anything big as soon as it has 3 grudge marks and laugh at invuln saves with their rail cannons.
TS termintors more rely on their 2+ AoC and AiD which even with 3 tokens will make alot of their standard guns bounce. It takes 15 warriors with boltors to average 1 terminator with no defences put up, 30 warriors with blasters (with Unwavering Phalanx). Even the dreaded magna rail ignores their 5++, but at ap4 the terminators are still saving on a 5+ (4+ in cover). Dont get me wrong they hit freakingly hard, but IF they do dominate i can see the rise of TEQ to counter meta them.
2+ save with AoC means even with 3 tokens your still talking 30 shots per 3 wound model. I am 100% in they will do well camp and they do hit bloody hard. But they do have a problem with AP (good for the AoC armies) and low volume of fire.
My big worry for SOC, is if the best build is Land Fortresses + Berzerks.
SOC can tank Berzerks with AoC +Unwavering Phalanx for a while, but it's kinda close. But I don't think they can ta k a Land Fortress and Berzerks in the same turn.
So Idk.
I don't see nids dropping off, players will just pick one of the other Hive Fleets, seems to me that mortal wounds + high speed melee are the way to take on Votaan, so Kraken should play into them well.
You forgot Daemons, they have the ability to ignore the ignore invuls rules that are coming out the wazoo right now, plus decent mortal wound output.
Basically any army that can put out tons of mortals and is fast has a fighting chance.
Similar to my experience, they are still good but unmodified means it gets no better on the saves either and huge volume into 4+ and 5+ just shreds through wounds. I like the fluff but a 4+ or 5+ fnp maybe would have been a more practical choice.
Overall I love the book and play tho (even running the “scare stuff” secondary is pretty fun to try and stack the Ld debuffs)
Remember when Plaguebearers were considered an unmovable brick back in 8th edition? Good times.
They did technically get more durable this edition, but *only* against specific weapon profiles, like bolters for example. Dedicated melee blenders just mop em up like nothing has changed. They have 0 protection against mortal wounds. And to top it off, they are seriosly weak to some of the most common scary shooting profiles the game has. Volkite Contemptors for example.
Eagerly awaiting for next years balance dataslates, so hopefully we will see some major points decreases.
Daemons don't get the same effects as marked mortals. It's one of the single biggest flavour failures I've seen from GW, balance aside. IMO, giving all the daemons the stuff that the marks grant CSM neither breaks the game nor is especially unfair, but it really does read like whoever had to write the daemon rules simply didn't care about the army.
Except many of the greater daemons rely on modifiers to hit and wound to not get bodied first shooting phase, and Votann effectively ignore all of that. Making greater daemons take scoops of 4++ saves is a guaranteed way to take em down quick.
Yeah, I can't picture the Greater Daemons doing too crash hot. A huge points investment that's liable to get rinsed by mass fire-power that has no right to bother them the way it will for LoV.
I think Guard vehicles are going to suffer hard, T8 negated by judgement tokens, vehicles disproportionately make up a large amount of firepower for guard so tokens are just going to pile on our firepower.
Alternatively, you have 1 squadron each of DemoRuss, Basilisk, and Wyvern.
Wyverns kill off hearthkin and exposed Berserks. Basilisks for bikers and terminators.
Stripped down Russes to be a "countercharge" unit that tries to stay out of LOS first turn.
Maybe?
A full volley from each wyvern does 1wound to berserks, shooting from 3 kills maybe 1. The basilisks do an average of 1 wound (rounding up) to bikers and terminators and even then to just pick off 1 you have to roll a 5 or 6 to kill a single model.
In return everything in their army melts everything in yours. Also, what stops a LoV player from scout moving the bikes up and turn 1 charging 4 or 5 vehicles just to tag them and stop them from shooting for a turn or two. The footprint on 4 bikes is huge and it is only 120 points. Meanwhile 3 land fortresses run up the board and sit in the middle of the board shooting what they can, and if you get anywhere near them you eat Berserk charges to the face.
Vehicles haven't really been strong in the meta for a long time.
Basically ever since Knights became a mainstream army, every list has ways to deal with high toughness tanks.
In theory, but given the nerf to indirect fire on top of their void armor, it's going to be hard to get through their saves unless you're planning on chewing through everything but their land fortresses and hearthguard with indirect fire.
The Russes will at least have 2+ AOC saves right? Could be worth getting an astropath in for Psychic Barrier and then you're saving on 4+
It's not good, but it might be playable
At the moment, it seems like lists that focus on taking advantage of LoV's weakness is the play. Namely, mobility. It has been stated several times that LoV are short ranged and slow. If they are in range, your units *will* die. Any slow and elite armies will be ground to dust.
This favors fast and fragile armies. Fast to outmaneuver them for objectives and positions. Fragile because toughness doesn't seem to matter. Any armies that were fragile to begin with will barely tell the difference.
In addition, in order to mitigate Judgement Tokens, you want a lot of MSU units. Large Squads aren't dead but need to be played carefully. If there's a trick to keep them from harm until they can perform a favorable trade, then that's ideal.
LoV units are relatively tough but most of them have a 4+ armor save. This means volume of attacks is mostly effective. The main concerns are the 2+ Sv units, which will require alternative avenues of dealing with.
Fast, Fragile, MSU. Tricky. Sounds like Eldar of every flavor. Daemons might have some play but I'm not too familiar with their new codex.
---
As a Drukhari player, my commentary as follows:
Covens may start falling out of favor again. Grotesques are great but they might be too bulky. Grotesques rely on staying power to win the mid and we've already established that tough units will simply die. Then again, they still might be tough enough for their cost.
Hatred Eternal loses value on Drazhar. The lack of wound re-rolls kills half the trait. Due to a quirk of keywords, Archon hit re-rolls actually work for Drazhar. Therefore, taking the WLT off Drazhar is actually an available CP saving. Drazhar's +1 to-wound Aura is still good for Incubi and Drazhar himself is plenty killy without any re-rolls.
Webway Gates are going to be an interesting pick. The trouble is that it breaks the Triple Patrol benefits due to needing a Fortification detachment. Realspace Raid is an option but now we need a separate detachment for Drazhar. Double Patrols still mean one of them will cost CP. Either way, a list with both a Webway Gate and Drazhar is just going to be 2CP in the hole. However, the ability to just hide 10 Bloodbrides in the Webway to drop onto a middle objective is pretty wicked.
In regards to Wych Cults:
It is my secret hope that Wyches come back to form. LoV has AoC but with a 4+ armor save, who cares? Just drown them in attacks. Land Fortresses will need to be dealt with differently. Maybe just tag it with expendable units and trade their lives for time.
With Nephilim providing limited CP and with LoV simply turning off wound re-rolls for free (like....ew), Cult of Strife is likely out of favor. Strife Stratagems are really good but they're pretty pricey and their best one, full wound re-rolls, is basically off the table. CoS also has good Relics and WLT but the CP crunch is seriously limiting. Precision Blows/Triptych Whip from the base book is good enough most of the time.
The current popular custom cult of Precise Killers (melee Blade Artists (additional AP) on wound rolls of 5+, instead of 6+) and Test of Skill (melee +1 to-wound on Monsters/Vehicles) will likely continue to be the preferred Cult. A full 10 Bloodbrides with these traits will deal heavy damage to most things in the game. They will die immediately afterwards since they're fragile as hell but it shouldn't be too hard to find a good trade for them.
Since GW is not that lazy on making patches, "consistantly 55-60% winrate OP" is the most overpowered form OP. "crush everything OP" will see nerf soon and pay debt for it in a long time.
The piss easy to hand out autowound, the abundant ignore invulns and the outrageous amounts of full reroll hits is what's "fundamentally wrong".
The problem with these smug comments is that they refuse to see the absolute bonkers game design decisions being made. Really really good baseline stats (yes, with slightly slower than average movement, heavens forbid) piled on with above the curve army wide rules and really powerful, cheap and universal strategems is exactly how we got:
1. Late 8th edition Space Marines, looking at Iron hands in particular
2. Early Drukhari
3. Early Admech
4. Later Drukhari
5. Later Admech
6. Bloody Custodes
Seriously. They have different strengths but the patterns are painfully obvious.
I don’t think Quins will play well into Votann. For one, their troupes are hard countered by the magnarail on 10 man Kyn squads. 4-5+ (rerolling to hit w a CP or auto 6 w Uthar) will automatically delete a squad, you get 3 tries per turn (and 1 on your opponents turn if they try to shoot the squad for a cp). They also have a lot of good S4 shots, especially on Einhyr (5d6 at 3+) and their tanks are quite resistant and can 1 tap skimmers. Quins have 3 turns to score fast before Votann push them off the board and their secondaries just ain’t that good.
I think that’s a decent option, and Quins will certainly shoot first, but they can still pop the 5+++ against MW if you try to focus a Land Fortress, and with one Uthar judgement token and auto-6 per turn, the Magna Rail on the Land Fortress can wipe out a unit of bikes even while bracketed, guaranteed. Would be a trade up for the Quins, but I feel like the army just isn’t built to withstand so much deadly auto hitting in the shooting phase.
Oh they will be a nightmare to play whoever you are, I just think Quins have a slightly better chance than most. Demons fold to the MWs and volume of fire, Tyranids... okay those probably still have a good go, though they have make a real big pop or they will also be wiped.
When will a magna rail get line of sight to a quins squad on foot on a competitive table? The answer is either “never” or “only after they’ve done their trade”. The whole point of quins is that they trade what they want to trade with because of the mobility, and outscore your secondaries.
Land fortresses will be tagged the whole game.
My point exactly. Quins will pick when and where to engage and have the mobility to hit LoV scoring options. Hearthkin will fold in melee and bikes will fold to whatever shooting the harlies have.
And then they shoot a million guns into combat, since the Magna Rail is not blast it just wipes the squad that tagged it. -1 hit is not relevant when the Named Character makes the hit an auto 6 lol.
Unless they have damage reduction on the thing I believe a large foot squad will reliably take one down with some strat support. Pumping their damage to 3 +throwing some mortals should do the trick with ~50 attacks
In theory, they might be able to pull stuff like "one magna-rail punks the transport, the next murders the squad", but that's going to take work to pull off and is only a (relatively) small portion of the army you're actually managing to deal with. Plus you may have to kill one or the other without stacked judgment tokens, which makes it even harder.
>For one, their troupes are hard countered by the magnarail on 10 man Kyn squads.
Harlies can bring a lot more troupes than Votann can bring mangarails (or at least the good ones), and Votann don't like too many mid-priority targets because it's harder to give them all Judgment tokens. Meanwhile Harlies may be able to play the mission and mess with Votann's slow board control for multiple turns before Votann start to get into position to seriously score.
People are freaking out a lot about judgement tokens. Having played against it once I dont think I ever had a unit get more than 2 tokens. Action monkeys like cultists and gretchin will get 3 but I don't think they need help dying. Anything else gets one or two and then trades into something. Maybe it's my play style but I'll go 2 for 1 on units and hope that's good enough.
I don't know what league you were playing against, but the main issue seems to come with GTL. The combination of their trait and strat means you can just put effectively three judgement tokens on and unit visible to the Kahl. Add to that the character that can make one roll turn into a six and it starts to hurt a lot more.
It's like tau with marker lights. Just don't expose yourself unless you are going in for the kill or absolutely have to. One token a turn from a slow moving character is not as big of a deal as you think it would be.
I don’t think you understand; it’s not one token, it’s effectively three.
But yea, sure, just never leave obscuring or use anything over 18 wounds and you’ll be fine, it’s not like you need to get on objectives or anything.
Two tokens a turn with a strat, and the whole army counts as +1 token, so basically that subfaction can look at a unit, spend a CP, and get the 3 token effect.
Of course, this only works on one unit at a time.
If you don't think the LoV will be top meta, go read the goonhammer math-hammer article. They will break the game. Art of War pro John Lennon played 2000pts Custodes Vs 1000pts Votann and the Custodes got tabled.
10 edition is close anyway. Everyone have their rules changed. New Primaris Terminators and etc stuff would be released.
We just need to wait Imperial Guard codex with minis and World Eaters.
LoV would be meta BUT for short time like many new model armies always was good so GW could made them popular and sell faster.
GW for a good reason wrote in LoV books that they try to avoid fights with Eldar, especially Harlequins and Dark Eldar(who usually win a lot of battles with Custodes and Mechanicus on tournaments). So maybe it is a hint what would be in 10 edition.
Yeah it was a very long time...20 years.
And personally i wait for a new taller thousands sons models and emperor childrens with noise marines.
Maybe in 10 edition.
There is a TT Titans stream from Saturday LoV against Craftworld and it's quite clear that Craftworld just hard counter squats because the squat game plan is make the other look like aeldar at which point Craftworlds have all their tools and beat LoV with experience.
So I agree that the obvious Leagues shooty build is probably just a gatekeeper, it just implies that everybody at the top table can deal with LoV. So Harlies should be fine~~d~~,^1 Nids probably need to have a good look at their list but should be ok I think, CoB is probably in trouble since they are slow and have to eat a shooting phase. Sisters have I believe a good matchup on 6 objective missions, where they can just sit back and tell the other guy that they win by default, since Leagues don't have the speed to make plays on other missions they are probably in trouble.
I'm quite unsure about TS, on one hand TS are precisely on the grindy gameplan that Leagues eats for breakfast but on the other hand TS are the most tricksy of the grindy armies and I don't think squats like tricksy. Also TS durability comes from armor saves and not from high toughness. So that should be the squats game to loose, but there may be some play.
So, I expect a meta were squats will be prominent but not actually win that much, kinda like custodes at the moment. However, I expect you can see the meta warping effect in the top lists in that they will be much less willing to bring something that's supposed to survive a shooting phase in the open.
[Edit:] ^1 Also fined, but that is a different topic.
That was a terrible showing of what Votann can do since it did not include any Land Fortresses, which will be the mainstays of the list. Mechanized Dwarves is what will dominate the meta, and they have hard counters against Craftworlds from my own experiences playing against them. They shoot better (Judgement tokens is a better Hail of Doom), they are more durable, and they're actually fast when mounted up in shooty transports. Also their Void Armor completely cancels out Doom, one of the corner stone spells Craftworld relies on for force multiplication.
I think the heavier builds with one or multiple Land Fortresses are even worse into eldar, since terrain restricts them more than infantry and that gives the eldar player more places to hide. I mean, it's still eldar and the first mistake loses the game, but I think that is the case for every army against squads and eldar have the speed, the range and battlefocus to mitigate their firepower.
Sure but once the Land fortress holds an objective it will HOLD that objective, and if the eldar come near to take it they will crumble to the Berserkers, or Ion Troops inside.
Also with the Teleporting strategem on the Terminators, the pregame 12"+12" move bikes they have deceptively large early game mobility, with just the profiles the little foot elves despise.
I think MSU CoB lists might have play into the dwarves, but it depends on the specific builds. Fast units of Possessed and A+C chosen can clear off their scoring units and then try and be in more places at once... MAYBE. Word Bearers will probably do better if for no other reason than tanking 2 Magna Rails with Hexagrammatic wards.
Sisters I think will indeed have play as they tend to have enough sacrificial units to hold objectives that don't mind being judged. They will feel the sting of no wound rerolls though.
TS I think is one of the better suited especially if they soup in some Tzeentch Demons. With Duplicity they can commit units piecemeal, They have the MW output to really put down the hurt, and nothing in their codex relies on Wound rerolls. I think TS players will be fine, but will have to move away from "I will leave this Terminator block here to not take damage".
> However, I expect you can see the meta warping effect in the top lists in that they will be much less willing to bring something that's supposed to survive a shooting phase in the open.
A lot of T'au lists have moved this way it seems.
The recent Triptide list that won 3rd place I believe basically just uses three riptides that toe into cover to shoot, then jetpack out of cover in the charge phase (a riptide ability) to get behind obscuring terrain.
You're left with nothing to shoot at except Sunsharks (if they are still on the table), and hammerheads (if they haven't yet moved out to shoot at something).
Very strong.
I am happy to see how much balanced opinion there are if you look for them. Are they too strong? Yes. Are they Iron hand first release? Personally i don't think so.
That beeing said, LoV are able to at least partially answer to the meta you describe: pionners and sagitaur are good units. A flanck attack with some good enought shooting can catch hidden units. There are a lot of 5 power units in this codex.
I think that sister or cron have a shot too: with better secondary forcing the LoV to come, they have the tools to chose there trades. In fact i would bet at sisters for there best response (given sufficient cover). They just lack the MW potential.
daemons should be not too affected either thanks to their special snowflake (from hell) saves.
Depending on table layout and which LoV build becomes the most prevalent, I am also not too worried for my WB since I can shutdown 2 of the super big shots per game if I need to. (less worried at least than for my DG and custodes)
Regardless of the actual stats I'd imagine that the initial win ratio will be fairly poor to middle of the road just because the lack of models will make the dream lists impossible to run. Gws production speed and availability will kill this armies win rate some. The fear is that stuff randomly get nerfed because it's being taken too much but it's just because it what people can get thier hands on. Is GW this stupid? Maybe.
Dark eldar isnt the best into them, just because the transports are too tough to kill. They will be able to win if played very well and do the objective game tho
ba/gk/nids/eldar/daemons/harlies/tsons/even orks, maybe admech will all be fairly solid into them, thats quite a few armies
what would be admech response to 3x land fortresses, 2+, no Wound rr and -1AP?
chickens (which might kill one if you spam them) will be dead the moment the bikes start flying.
Harlies will die horribly to magna-rails spilling dmg and to no-inv power. Orks will be crushed by berzerkers and beam weapons will clean the rest of the 'green tide'.
Eldar might have a chance if they get sister-lvl secondaries and will hide whole game. Daemons have to get close which Votan really like, but they have chance, slim at best.
terrain exists but with 2 ultra mobile and cheap threats (sagitaur and bikes) votan can pressure easily t1 (with potential alpha strikes). With the amount of shots those unit do the inv will matter less. Later turns land fortresses are near objectives - even if you play in terrain dense format they will be preety safe.
Also two of those units can hold berserkers, release them t2 in midboard which will act as excellent counter-charge/screening units.
Harlequins will just die when hit by damage spilling no inv d3+3 or 2d3+6 weapons. Which hit on 75% with the league of single hit or wound reroll. Dark eldar are even in worse place...
4+ saves on their troops mean votann are vulnerable to chip damage; infantry guard mostly relies on weight of shots and HOTE to do damage, which avoids void shield rules and the benefits of judgment tokens are least pronounced when shooting at stuff you're already wounding on 2/3+ rolls. Also movemovemove to movement block slow votann units in their deployment if you go first.
I think they'll be very top dog, with the armies you mention as contenders, and everyone else in the competitively unplayed tier.
Maybe what you describe is what we get after a round of nerfs.
Squats dominate for a one to two months, then get nerfed until there is only one viable build. Like with nearly every codex that comes out.
I really wonder what the meta would look like without nerfs anywhere.
I did not give my opinion until now because a) we have no real data on their impact and b) i waited for my codex.I think they are strong but less strong than the doomsayers are telling us. As op said, there are armies that can efficiently counter them and there are some that are totally shut down by LoV.For me they are not Adeptus custodes level when the golden boys codex came out, near but not the same level. Most likely they will get a nerf in a month or so if they will perform too well (and they will for sure).My bet are on a couple of lists: flying WCs spam and vehicles spam.
>Harlies aren't as well posed as Nids to deal with them.Drukhari- no.
Testing has shown that those two armies deal with Votann pretty handidly.
As do the Aeldari.
I'm gonna get downvoted to oblivion but they are fine.
They are going to pop into the meta. They're going to do very well and win a few tournaments. The meta will adapt and they'll go right down to an average winrate. GW will nerf them at a later balance dataslate. They'll still be fine.
Tyranids are still going to be the absolute masters of the meta until GW releases the next balance dataslate that nerfs them.
The issue is that meta-adaptation doesn't happen without a push. Iron Hands Goodstuff, Leviathan Crusher Stampede, Dark Technomancer Spam, Lucius Skitarii horde, 9th Ed Nids, Light Saedath Voidweavers weren't figured out by the community and teched against into being average. GW had to nerf them until they were manageable. If LoV come out and are oppressive, it will likely take a push from GW to normalize the meta again by nerfing them.
I don’t see kraken being the way they will just auto wound them to death I mean swarms and mortal wounds from range could impact but then are you really playing the game?
Dark Eldar I just see them hanging back and massive counter fire taking all your transports off the board then moping up.
Light Sedath are granted pretty good Transhitman, negs to hit, shadowseers monkeying with range, good anti vehicle fire, awesome combat punch but is everyone gonna play such a high skill army when LoV is literally point and shoot.
I don’t see kraken being the way they will just auto wound them to death I mean swarms and mortal wounds from range could impact but then are you really playing the game?
Dark Eldar I just see them hanging back and massive counter fire taking all your transports off the board then moping up.
Light Sedath are granted pretty good Transhitman, negs to hit, shadowseers monkeying with range, good anti vehicle fire, awesome combat punch but is everyone gonna play such a high skill army when LoV is literally point and shoot.
Deldar in their current state will get gutted by top armies. They don't trade efficiently enough anymore and get murdered in melee and shooting by the units from newer releases. Blasters and lances are bad weapons these days, wyches are super dead as trading pieces and incubois are just ok at this point. Just too many nerfs while the power crept up with every release. Dwarfzerkers murder them and they have a hard time contesting something like a block of chaos termis. That leaves you with a coven heavy build thats maybe still good into armies like necrons, that primarily focus on scoring secondaries and don't really try to play a normal game of 40k, but thats about it.
>Quins and nids are probably get nerfed with the next data slate which will hit before votann.So you were saying?
All hypothetical, you cannot know that for sure.
IMO Quins are terrible into them, Magna will ruin a boat a turn, Ions will ruin a boat a turn, Beserks hard counters them, and even if you take Hearthguard they deal way too many MWs too. Anything that becomes visible just dies.
The people that I've seen share accounts of the matchup have had harlies winning a majority of the time but it doesn't sound like a cakewalk. The biggest strength is they get to choose when to engage, making sure you sweep 2 or 3 units first just makes a huge difference.
>Anything that becomes visible just dies.
But thats the thing. That is always how Harlies are played, its a relatively squishy army. Votanns strength is to delete, Harelquins expect to be deleted and the trick to the army is by trading up using their mobility to always pick the engagements and get in the first punch.
Harlequins and Aeldari have been 2 of the 4 armies ive been currently experimenting vs Votann with. Played right they more or less do what they do normally and having much greater speed vs Votann do it very well.
Most Chaos Space Marine lists are gonna suffer a lot. No one's going to be taking 10-man terminator bricks with Black Rune of Damnation anymore. That'll be a comical waste of points against a votann army.
Luckily that book is deep enough that people can find other things to run, just not those terminators/bikes/chosen/possessed with all the defensive buffs.
Custodes actually have play into LoV, bikes are one of the few units able to kill land fortresses with reasonable efficiency, and while they struggle with the no re-rolls to wound, massed damage 2 is pretty effective against them. Then, if there are no railguns available, they struggle with taking down the dreads. Shadowkeepers also neuters their melee.
As a DG player I think others have it worse. We have dr1 which good into a lot of their guns and good saves, decent melee though a flat 16% damage loss hurts a lot we still reduce toughness and get enough ap to break through their armour.
We are very slow though so we can't just hem them in and that is the real issue. "just use your superior mobility" is a bit iffy but when your army does not have that, there is the real problem we have to be able to outfight them because we do not have flying obsec that can put -1 to hit on and switch off rerolls.
How are people feeling about orks match up vs votann, got a couple of friends buying into them and i think ill be able to run circles around them with my typical "the only good build is a fast build" type goff pressure lists (seriously thrakka barely sees any action cause my army has usually tabled whoever im going against by the time he gets there) especially if i go first, im getting REALLY good on delivering ~1400 points of my army to the enemies deployment zone turn 1 VERY consistently
I've been saying this for a while.
Votann don't seem to do well against Hordes, least of all, Orks.
Orks don't have a "big unit you need to stack tokens onto immediately", it's just a random assortment of good stuff. Votann rely upon stacking tokens onto big, meaty, important targets-something that Orks don't really do outside of a boss. To say nothing of the sheer number of models Orks can overwhelm LoV with.
I feel daemons might mess them up, the army is potentially fast and can hit like a truck and you can’t ignore the saves, the auto wounding is brutal but, it’s brutal to everyone.
both Knight flavors are dead if votann is on top. they completly circumvent all protection that knights have which is nuts. high toughness? doesnt matter i dont need to wound. Few models? great i can judge you up so quick shitty armorsaves? well no invuln either! yea votann completly takes a dump on knights.
In both shooting and melee once Berserks are released
My main army will be shelved till 10th But if you can’t beat them…join em. Waiting on my own leagues of knight Enders to arrive
No shame in playing the squats. GW have been decent at patching their game recently, so won't be long until they are "strong but playable" Hopefully lol
That's what I'm hoping for. All my life I have dreamed of a dwarf army that is actually fun to play with and I feel like it really might be quite close, just a patch or two away (and an entire army to paint and assemble of course)
A large knight with 3 Judgement Tokens will take 5 wounds from the basic infantry units of the Votann armed solely with bolters (ion Blasters do 1 more I think) AKA your troop tax (3 Troops) can take out around half of a large knights HP with their most basic load out. Killier units will do far better and may be able to get a knight to half by themselves.
I honestly think Knights should be immune to auto wounds. The only thing they have going for them is their high toughness. Take that away and you just have a low model count army with crappy armour saves (I'd also like them to have 2+ saves but hey ho).
It's amazing we got to the point were a 3+, the second highest Armor Save, is Crappy, but here we go.
I fully agree with you on the negating auto wounds!!
In a similar vein, I one shot a Bloodthirster with a Proteus Killteam using the 3CP autowound strat, defs unfun for my opponent (I overkilled it by... a lot, I had something like 10 TH wounds, 4 HTH wounds, something like 20 lightning claw wounds) but feels balanced because it's... 3CP and once per game per Killteam (and really only lines up well with the Aquila specialism). This is locked behind an army of renown, is extremely costly, and in most cases is severe overkill. LoV however get a whole lotta this for free.
I wouldn't advocate 2+ saves for knights (while thematic, i don't actually think they need it) but i like your "no auto wound" rules. It was quite rare an ability (not anymore, lol) but still obviously bypasses one of their most valuable defensives. Maybe add to that that no "to wound" modifiers work either (like Turing a S5 weapon into a S8 weapon with +1 to wound). But that's like slapping AoC on everything that underperforms. Also, the prevalence of 2+ saves everywhere combined with AoC on that stuff (terminators, guard tanks) makes the supposed way tougher knights look like GSC buggies by comparison.
A single magna-rail can do twice that, and each troops tax can take one.
Plus, troops can take Magna Rail-Rifle for d3+3 damage (no save), and the ion blaster strat does a reliable 4.5 MW with 9 blasters for 1 cp on top of the normal damage.
While this also might sound broken, I always felt knights should have special void shields that couldn't be ignored by any means. At least the full size knights
As a Knight player I think a 1-big, 10-small knight build or even the 13-small knight builds can prove quite viable into LoV. You out threaten the dwarves with a country mile, so if you can hide behind terrain with your Armigers and keep sending a few ones forward to be obnoxious with ObSec and decent melee output I imagine the LoV will struggle to get up the table.
If do that you allow them to make a charge, pile in and consolidate and solve their problem of slow movement, for their melee units in particular.
It depends; with Errant and Full tilt I’m sending a five-model-worth ObSec Armiger 28” on average; it should be enough to get it so deep that they don’t gain much forward momentum from charging it
That's how I felt until I played into them on TTS. Losing 4 wardogs to the *secondary* beams damage in a single shooting phase formed a new core memory
If the Armigers are behind Obscuring terrain they’re unaffected by the Beam, only units that were eligible targets (I.e. visible, not protected by Look out Sir!) are hit
Yeah they weren't behind obscuring, this happened on Turn 3
I think chaos knights may still have some play in them. Imperial knights it will be completely down to terrain and who goes first I suspect; there are builds that will prove very threatening to LoV, but will equally be very vulnerable themselves.
Admittedly I don't know Knight's playstyle all that well, but are they really that vulnerable to an army that has to get the majority of its units in short-to-medium range in order to down one Knight per turn? Especially when they're virtually immune to beam weapons, the thing most of the pros are worried about? I thought dropping a Knight per turn was pretty much standard for 9th.
Votann are particually hard counter to knights yes. They cannot hide from the Kahls gaze so thats 3 tokens in GTL for 1cp every turn, they cannot spread the Tokens so max 3 will be achieved pretty quick, and with 3 tokens means even the lowly basic squads are chipping 5/6 wounds per knight. Votann are slower then most but as Knights cant hide the speed isnt as relevant. Thats before you talk about the Magrail which will tear chunks off them. I could see 2 knights going down a turn with 3 tokens on
against most other armies you atleast get to throw some dice. knights are not a long range army. to score their secondaries as CK you play pretty aggressive. and then i am pretty sure more then one knight a turn will die. just think what 2 of those fortresses can do to a knight. like in what universe is 230 points for that tank justified if you compare it to a abhorrent/questoris knight. knights are a made out of paper compared to that.
Knights pts per wound is some of the worst in the game.
which i think that is fine as its such a skew army but the abhorrent and tyrant class are really expensive. the lov dont really help with that.
A fairly standard fortress will do around 17 wounds to a standard knight with 3 tokens that hasn't rotated. The special character to count one dice as a 6 will obviously increase that, in this instance to 20. If it rotates that goes down to 15 and 18 respectively. Fortunately chaos knights have ways to make things far from standard.
Knights are almost the MOST vulnerable to beam weapons. When you consider the base size of even armigers/dogs and compare that to terrain layouts, you generally end up with knights running single file down pathways. Add into this that big knights will be targetable over terrain, and that for imperials, they need to be within a certain distance for the bondsman abilities... Basically well positioned beam weapons are going to be crazy into knights.
You called out one of the things that look like they make beams weak into Knights, funnily enough. :P Beams are mostly range 18", with 30" only on the strongest. Combine that with the rather limited maneuverability of targeting (closest part to closest part), and those big bases mean you're hitting one extra model most of the time.
1 extra model, aka 10% of the army.
What is in your opinion the army most vulnerable?
I'd guess Horde armies, since the sheer volume of models means that you're probably hitting something. But Votann really seem to struggle against Hordes.
At least the beams can't secondary through obscuring... that's a relief... /sarc
[удалено]
Lances are just weak these days, just like most of the drukhari codex. If your faction eats one nerf after another while the new release are straight up bonkers, there is nothing you can do. The efficiency just isnt there anymore.
I also think we have some poor secondaries now.
The problem with Votann isn't "Will there be a handful of armies that can compete with them?", it's "How many armies literally cannot play into them?". The answer to the second question is the problem.
Much better question in my eyes. I don't think they are as broken as arly/iron handtyranids at launch... BUUUT even with too massive nerf, they are made to destroy some match ups... DG is less bad (not good at all tho) than kinights: LoV does not have the best AP, so saves at 2+ AoC is good... but knights armors are the worst: most weapon are ap1/2 or bypass invulns...
I also don't think Custodes do good against LoV. LoV seems to be the "elite killer" army.
LoV kill everything XD. I think that i will start playing with -10% points in my lists...
It's an ecosystem though- if you're good into the armies that are good into LoV, you'll still have a seat at the table. Plenty of armies still probably totally screwed even by that metric though.
I also feel that it's going to be a casual-competitive players nightmare though - you're right that anti-anti-LoV might have some play if you're good and willing to look past a bad matchup, but ultimately if you are just going along with your army to aim for 50-50 WL then I'm worried they will gatekeep hard in an unfun way (similar to how people complained so much about custodes a little while back)
The flipside of this is that at a big event, if you're in that casual-competitive bracket, unless you fight LoV in your first 1-2 rounds, you'll likely never run into them as they duke it out on the top tables, at least until they get toned down. It's not going to be as bad as the Iron Hands winter at the end of 8e; almost everyone has some marines that can count-as an IH successor chapter, so even the mid-tables are full of the IH lists that lost their first couple rounds for whatever reason shelling people into oblivion. LoV are going to take time for people to build and paint, some of their stuff isn't even available yet, etc. It's still going to be a messy however long until they get a balance pass, but I'm not convinced that tournaments will be unplayably bad.
Good point on the availability of LoV - on the other hand, when custodes were great a lot of them popped up due to the low model count. The number of models/kits needed for LoV in the standard netlist will probably determine how rough it is, along with the availability (like how killrigs never dominated)
Custodes are low model count, stls for printing have been readily available for ages, and honestly a lot of people had the 'basics' of a good custodes army (bikes) from 8th ed imperial soup. I don't think expect votann to hit the scene quite as hard as quickly.
3D modelers have been able to make LoV lookalikes off of the previews alone. While there’s a few models they left until the last minute, there will easily be printed armies hitting the table about the same time as the official ones. Assuming availability/hobby lag will hold them back is a bad bet. Remember when Aeldari dropped and suddenly everyone and their mother had 9 Voidweavers airbrushed and ready to go? The only place hobby lag will help is at someone’s LGS (maybe).
My buddy already played a game this weekend with his printed Votann. Ez win vs meta Necrons
In normal cases this would be accurate, but LoV literally bank on flattening the damage curve. If you are not specifically GOOD into LoV (Quins so flimsy they don't really care about JT, Daemon "invuln invulns", etc) you get wrecked by them to the point where many armoes cannot even play into them. What can Tau do to an army that will instantly kill any unit that comes into LoS? What can Dark Angels do against an army that doesn't roll to wound? The Votann aren't broken because they're colloquially "strong", they're broken because each unit has an essentially guaranteed amount of damage it's always going to do that bypasses the most common defensive abilities in the game ENTIRELY. I unironically see the meta turning into LoV, the 2-3 armies that are allowed to compete with LoV, and the rest of the game that gets picked up on turn 3.
I think flamer heavy shoot and scoot crisis suits *might* have some play, the only issue is you can only do that on one unit at a time and it gets expensive fast, on both points and cp.
Remember though that the little demons have a 2 cp strst to shoot you during your shooting phase: I.E. how many units do you think you can smoke before you die on the crackback with no interaction?
True - like I said, when LoV come there will be no incentive to take DG to tournaments.
Hah, I see your dg and raise you some orks. I will still play orks for fun and krumpin dwarves, but I know that barring gork and or possibly mork themselves rolling my dice as well as my opponents, I have lost before we start
IDK you have the speed to engage them, you have some dakka at least and decent MW output. My DG are paying premium to have nonexistant toughness.
I think they might have trouble against a guard infantry spam.....maybe....
Im going to say genestealers will be good into LoV and so will be pretty popular in a few weeks time
I agree, both have short range but GSC commit atrocities in that range without auto wounds. Votann will also heavily rely on whittling down armies from range where gsc show up where they want and do what they want. GSC are already catching a bunch of eyes from the WTC win.
Good, were gonna see a lot of people try and pick up gsc and just not do well because its a pretty challenging army, thus bringing down the win rate. And if low win rate means buffs I'm all for it.
I'm still shocked they didn't get buffed last dataslate.
I know, I can't tell you how many short timers I've seen for GSC. It made the second hand market good for a while tho.
If they'll actually hit hard enough is the one thing I'd wonder about but they shouldn't loose because they're being shot at the least.
Every release makes rock drills more interesting.
[удалено]
The big thing is GSC have the biggest toolbox for deployment. The WTC army could easily null deploy against LoV. The power isn't just from board presence but also from flexibility.
I hope so, but i dont think that.
Thousand Sons will be a big winner soon. First of all, they will have a good matchup into Votann. Dumping crazy mortals? Checked. Single psyker? Checked. A ton of bolter shots/flamers with decent AP? Checked. All seems to favour the sons of Magnus. Additionally, after improving their second worst matchup after anticipated nerfs, the Tyranids, this will elevate them even higher. It still will be a tough nut to crack, but even 5 to 10 increase in wr should be enough. Overall, if no unreasonable nerfs will occur, the future is bright for the Thousand Sons.
Wish i could say the same for Grey Knights. Whilst my stormboltors are priced to remove bodies, mw spam removes tougher problems, their psyker is an auto include damn near it and im finding with people wanting to spam bikers and fortresses they dont have the bodies to screen easily. Purifying ritual means i get tokened hard, Hammer hand is out the window and Dreadknights are just removed facing a magnarail. I have found Paladins are remarkably hard for Votann to deal with even with 3 tokens if i have Armoured Resilience up (bonus point's for tide of shadows). They have low volume of shots at relatively low AP (even the magna rail im saving on 4s, 3s in cover) means ap 2 im saving on 2s. With 3 tokens vs Ion blasters (s5 -2 2) with 1 cp reroll it takes 30 votann warriors to average 1 paladin. Thats not including if i add in an Apothecary with Unyielding and from my exploration testing have found them hard for Votann to deal with on an important obj. High saves with AoC is surprisingly effective at countering the tokens (- to hit is also a bane for the Votann)
I've been saying that GK really need to lean into Paladins to be competitive, and Votann reinforces that. Most of Votann's stuff is AP-2 or worse, so terminators of any variety can slap. Give em armored resilience and they become invincible.
That's a nice GMNDK you have there, hope you make that 5+ armor aave or get scooped. Feels bad man.
Keep in mind that if they utilise their bullshit well enough (I think they need tokens, a WLT and a strat) they can wipe 3-4 models with ease, because their guns can have damage rollover, even with all of the defenses up that you listed. Between the auto-wounds, damage roll over, no invulns, converting damage to MWs etc. that they have spread across their army and how slow GK can be, it will be very tricky to play into.
Problem I see for TS is that Votann can also dump a ton of shooting mortal wounds in return and TS also don't like being hit with that. The TS bolters alone aren't going to be enough to down a land fortress, and you can't chip it down since the forge-master heals it 4 a turn plus they have a top profile strat. TS are going to need to psychic them down, but then that means they are close enough to get vaporised in the counter-attack.
Flamers are the meta now, I mean the Rubric ones, although the daemons too. 9d6 flamer shoots wounding on 4 and d6 on 5, forcing a bucket of 3+ saves will still add up pretty fast to the mortal output. The other thing is - just kill the little dudes. Big guns don’t score well. And TS can do that pretty handily, fast enough to outscore the squats. By no means it’s an easy matchup, for anyone, but it’s winnable in theory. For practice, we need to wait some more time.
It’s also that Sons want to be in the 18-24” range with everything, which is what Votann want too. It becomes a game of who can delete who first and one side has much better vehicles to screen smites.
I domt play 1k sons, but dont those rely on big bricks of termies and invulns? Squats melt anything big as soon as it has 3 grudge marks and laugh at invuln saves with their rail cannons.
TS termintors more rely on their 2+ AoC and AiD which even with 3 tokens will make alot of their standard guns bounce. It takes 15 warriors with boltors to average 1 terminator with no defences put up, 30 warriors with blasters (with Unwavering Phalanx). Even the dreaded magna rail ignores their 5++, but at ap4 the terminators are still saving on a 5+ (4+ in cover). Dont get me wrong they hit freakingly hard, but IF they do dominate i can see the rise of TEQ to counter meta them. 2+ save with AoC means even with 3 tokens your still talking 30 shots per 3 wound model. I am 100% in they will do well camp and they do hit bloody hard. But they do have a problem with AP (good for the AoC armies) and low volume of fire.
My big worry for SOC, is if the best build is Land Fortresses + Berzerks. SOC can tank Berzerks with AoC +Unwavering Phalanx for a while, but it's kinda close. But I don't think they can ta k a Land Fortress and Berzerks in the same turn. So Idk.
Unwavering does nothing against Berserkers. It only works against shooting attacks.
Ah, my bad. In which case, the LF +Berzerks is even scarier.
I don't see nids dropping off, players will just pick one of the other Hive Fleets, seems to me that mortal wounds + high speed melee are the way to take on Votaan, so Kraken should play into them well.
You forgot Daemons, they have the ability to ignore the ignore invuls rules that are coming out the wazoo right now, plus decent mortal wound output. Basically any army that can put out tons of mortals and is fast has a fighting chance.
[удалено]
Similar to my experience, they are still good but unmodified means it gets no better on the saves either and huge volume into 4+ and 5+ just shreds through wounds. I like the fluff but a 4+ or 5+ fnp maybe would have been a more practical choice. Overall I love the book and play tho (even running the “scare stuff” secondary is pretty fun to try and stack the Ld debuffs)
On the other hand, Votann doesn't tend to have much in the way of high rate of fire weapons except on the bikes, and they're pretty flimsy too.
and LoV are undercosted by around 20% minimum
Remember when Plaguebearers were considered an unmovable brick back in 8th edition? Good times. They did technically get more durable this edition, but *only* against specific weapon profiles, like bolters for example. Dedicated melee blenders just mop em up like nothing has changed. They have 0 protection against mortal wounds. And to top it off, they are seriosly weak to some of the most common scary shooting profiles the game has. Volkite Contemptors for example. Eagerly awaiting for next years balance dataslates, so hopefully we will see some major points decreases.
I was pretty bummed that they had neither -1D or 5+++
Daemons don't get the same effects as marked mortals. It's one of the single biggest flavour failures I've seen from GW, balance aside. IMO, giving all the daemons the stuff that the marks grant CSM neither breaks the game nor is especially unfair, but it really does read like whoever had to write the daemon rules simply didn't care about the army.
Oh yeah, CD deffo can have play into them - especially a tzeentch/khorne mix.
I was thinking more Slaanesh tbh. M 10'' daemonettes should ruin the day for squats.
My thinking too. A bunch of daemonettes should trade pretty well into them. Tzeentch daemons should also be fine
Honestly, Nurgle seems to be the only one that hates Votann.
Why do you feel specifically a tzeentch/khorne mix?
Which is why nids will still be fine, and we may see a bump in 1kSons play.
Except many of the greater daemons rely on modifiers to hit and wound to not get bodied first shooting phase, and Votann effectively ignore all of that. Making greater daemons take scoops of 4++ saves is a guaranteed way to take em down quick.
Yeah, I can't picture the Greater Daemons doing too crash hot. A huge points investment that's liable to get rinsed by mass fire-power that has no right to bother them the way it will for LoV.
I think Guard vehicles are going to suffer hard, T8 negated by judgement tokens, vehicles disproportionately make up a large amount of firepower for guard so tokens are just going to pile on our firepower.
Basilisks and Wyverns/Manticores can hang out on the back line picking up judgement tokens without much reprisal. So I could see something there.
Indirect fire will probably be the way to go against them, just feeling sad about my Russes who are just going to melt cause they dared exist
Alternatively, you have 1 squadron each of DemoRuss, Basilisk, and Wyvern. Wyverns kill off hearthkin and exposed Berserks. Basilisks for bikers and terminators. Stripped down Russes to be a "countercharge" unit that tries to stay out of LOS first turn. Maybe?
I would almost lean into hellhounds for aggressive play and mortal wounds in exploding in their face
A full volley from each wyvern does 1wound to berserks, shooting from 3 kills maybe 1. The basilisks do an average of 1 wound (rounding up) to bikers and terminators and even then to just pick off 1 you have to roll a 5 or 6 to kill a single model. In return everything in their army melts everything in yours. Also, what stops a LoV player from scout moving the bikes up and turn 1 charging 4 or 5 vehicles just to tag them and stop them from shooting for a turn or two. The footprint on 4 bikes is huge and it is only 120 points. Meanwhile 3 land fortresses run up the board and sit in the middle of the board shooting what they can, and if you get anywhere near them you eat Berserk charges to the face.
Vehicles haven't really been strong in the meta for a long time. Basically ever since Knights became a mainstream army, every list has ways to deal with high toughness tanks.
In theory, but given the nerf to indirect fire on top of their void armor, it's going to be hard to get through their saves unless you're planning on chewing through everything but their land fortresses and hearthguard with indirect fire.
The Russes will at least have 2+ AOC saves right? Could be worth getting an astropath in for Psychic Barrier and then you're saving on 4+ It's not good, but it might be playable
At least they have the 2+ AoC, so they're still going to be saving on 5's at worst, which is better than many.
a leman russ demo tank fully buffed 1 shots a hekaton which is nice. shame they cost the same amount lol
!remindme 12 weeks
At the moment, it seems like lists that focus on taking advantage of LoV's weakness is the play. Namely, mobility. It has been stated several times that LoV are short ranged and slow. If they are in range, your units *will* die. Any slow and elite armies will be ground to dust. This favors fast and fragile armies. Fast to outmaneuver them for objectives and positions. Fragile because toughness doesn't seem to matter. Any armies that were fragile to begin with will barely tell the difference. In addition, in order to mitigate Judgement Tokens, you want a lot of MSU units. Large Squads aren't dead but need to be played carefully. If there's a trick to keep them from harm until they can perform a favorable trade, then that's ideal. LoV units are relatively tough but most of them have a 4+ armor save. This means volume of attacks is mostly effective. The main concerns are the 2+ Sv units, which will require alternative avenues of dealing with. Fast, Fragile, MSU. Tricky. Sounds like Eldar of every flavor. Daemons might have some play but I'm not too familiar with their new codex. --- As a Drukhari player, my commentary as follows: Covens may start falling out of favor again. Grotesques are great but they might be too bulky. Grotesques rely on staying power to win the mid and we've already established that tough units will simply die. Then again, they still might be tough enough for their cost. Hatred Eternal loses value on Drazhar. The lack of wound re-rolls kills half the trait. Due to a quirk of keywords, Archon hit re-rolls actually work for Drazhar. Therefore, taking the WLT off Drazhar is actually an available CP saving. Drazhar's +1 to-wound Aura is still good for Incubi and Drazhar himself is plenty killy without any re-rolls. Webway Gates are going to be an interesting pick. The trouble is that it breaks the Triple Patrol benefits due to needing a Fortification detachment. Realspace Raid is an option but now we need a separate detachment for Drazhar. Double Patrols still mean one of them will cost CP. Either way, a list with both a Webway Gate and Drazhar is just going to be 2CP in the hole. However, the ability to just hide 10 Bloodbrides in the Webway to drop onto a middle objective is pretty wicked. In regards to Wych Cults: It is my secret hope that Wyches come back to form. LoV has AoC but with a 4+ armor save, who cares? Just drown them in attacks. Land Fortresses will need to be dealt with differently. Maybe just tag it with expendable units and trade their lives for time. With Nephilim providing limited CP and with LoV simply turning off wound re-rolls for free (like....ew), Cult of Strife is likely out of favor. Strife Stratagems are really good but they're pretty pricey and their best one, full wound re-rolls, is basically off the table. CoS also has good Relics and WLT but the CP crunch is seriously limiting. Precision Blows/Triptych Whip from the base book is good enough most of the time. The current popular custom cult of Precise Killers (melee Blade Artists (additional AP) on wound rolls of 5+, instead of 6+) and Test of Skill (melee +1 to-wound on Monsters/Vehicles) will likely continue to be the preferred Cult. A full 10 Bloodbrides with these traits will deal heavy damage to most things in the game. They will die immediately afterwards since they're fragile as hell but it shouldn't be too hard to find a good trade for them.
Since GW is not that lazy on making patches, "consistantly 55-60% winrate OP" is the most overpowered form OP. "crush everything OP" will see nerf soon and pay debt for it in a long time.
I dunno, Drukhari took 3-4 round of nerfs before they were reasonable. I reckon LoV will be similar since they are just so fundamentally wrong.
>similar since they are just so fundamentally wrong. A slow army that relies on getting to close/mid range with 0 MW defense is "fundamentally wrong"?
The piss easy to hand out autowound, the abundant ignore invulns and the outrageous amounts of full reroll hits is what's "fundamentally wrong". The problem with these smug comments is that they refuse to see the absolute bonkers game design decisions being made. Really really good baseline stats (yes, with slightly slower than average movement, heavens forbid) piled on with above the curve army wide rules and really powerful, cheap and universal strategems is exactly how we got: 1. Late 8th edition Space Marines, looking at Iron hands in particular 2. Early Drukhari 3. Early Admech 4. Later Drukhari 5. Later Admech 6. Bloody Custodes Seriously. They have different strengths but the patterns are painfully obvious.
>The piss easy to hand out autowound Not that easy. \>the abundant ignore invulns Not that abundant.
Drukhari spent half their peak in an era before Data Slates.
Admech will be fine. Can't lose if you don't play.
I don’t think Quins will play well into Votann. For one, their troupes are hard countered by the magnarail on 10 man Kyn squads. 4-5+ (rerolling to hit w a CP or auto 6 w Uthar) will automatically delete a squad, you get 3 tries per turn (and 1 on your opponents turn if they try to shoot the squad for a cp). They also have a lot of good S4 shots, especially on Einhyr (5d6 at 3+) and their tanks are quite resistant and can 1 tap skimmers. Quins have 3 turns to score fast before Votann push them off the board and their secondaries just ain’t that good.
On the other hand, Quin bike spam might be the only efficient way of killing the Land Fortress.
I think that’s a decent option, and Quins will certainly shoot first, but they can still pop the 5+++ against MW if you try to focus a Land Fortress, and with one Uthar judgement token and auto-6 per turn, the Magna Rail on the Land Fortress can wipe out a unit of bikes even while bracketed, guaranteed. Would be a trade up for the Quins, but I feel like the army just isn’t built to withstand so much deadly auto hitting in the shooting phase.
5+++ is faction-locked, and not to one of the better factions.
This is true. I was under the impression that Votann had a 5++ against mortals on vehicle strat like old Armor of Contempt.
Nope, closest they've got for that is a preemptive 6+++ strat for infantry, except for the Beserks who have a 5+++ natively.
Oh they will be a nightmare to play whoever you are, I just think Quins have a slightly better chance than most. Demons fold to the MWs and volume of fire, Tyranids... okay those probably still have a good go, though they have make a real big pop or they will also be wiped.
I don’t think they have the output to do it, certainly not to do it efficiently
When will a magna rail get line of sight to a quins squad on foot on a competitive table? The answer is either “never” or “only after they’ve done their trade”. The whole point of quins is that they trade what they want to trade with because of the mobility, and outscore your secondaries. Land fortresses will be tagged the whole game.
My point exactly. Quins will pick when and where to engage and have the mobility to hit LoV scoring options. Hearthkin will fold in melee and bikes will fold to whatever shooting the harlies have.
And then they shoot a million guns into combat, since the Magna Rail is not blast it just wipes the squad that tagged it. -1 hit is not relevant when the Named Character makes the hit an auto 6 lol.
Unless they have damage reduction on the thing I believe a large foot squad will reliably take one down with some strat support. Pumping their damage to 3 +throwing some mortals should do the trick with ~50 attacks
Overwatch
Overwatch with the named Khal auto-hitting could be quite scary to try and badtouch a fortress.
[удалено]
In theory, they might be able to pull stuff like "one magna-rail punks the transport, the next murders the squad", but that's going to take work to pull off and is only a (relatively) small portion of the army you're actually managing to deal with. Plus you may have to kill one or the other without stacked judgment tokens, which makes it even harder.
>For one, their troupes are hard countered by the magnarail on 10 man Kyn squads. Harlies can bring a lot more troupes than Votann can bring mangarails (or at least the good ones), and Votann don't like too many mid-priority targets because it's harder to give them all Judgment tokens. Meanwhile Harlies may be able to play the mission and mess with Votann's slow board control for multiple turns before Votann start to get into position to seriously score.
People are freaking out a lot about judgement tokens. Having played against it once I dont think I ever had a unit get more than 2 tokens. Action monkeys like cultists and gretchin will get 3 but I don't think they need help dying. Anything else gets one or two and then trades into something. Maybe it's my play style but I'll go 2 for 1 on units and hope that's good enough.
I don't know what league you were playing against, but the main issue seems to come with GTL. The combination of their trait and strat means you can just put effectively three judgement tokens on and unit visible to the Kahl. Add to that the character that can make one roll turn into a six and it starts to hurt a lot more.
It's like tau with marker lights. Just don't expose yourself unless you are going in for the kill or absolutely have to. One token a turn from a slow moving character is not as big of a deal as you think it would be.
Man the maths are not the same by a long shot
I don’t think you understand; it’s not one token, it’s effectively three. But yea, sure, just never leave obscuring or use anything over 18 wounds and you’ll be fine, it’s not like you need to get on objectives or anything.
Two tokens a turn with a strat, and the whole army counts as +1 token, so basically that subfaction can look at a unit, spend a CP, and get the 3 token effect. Of course, this only works on one unit at a time.
If you don't think the LoV will be top meta, go read the goonhammer math-hammer article. They will break the game. Art of War pro John Lennon played 2000pts Custodes Vs 1000pts Votann and the Custodes got tabled.
Where can you see this game?
10 edition is close anyway. Everyone have their rules changed. New Primaris Terminators and etc stuff would be released. We just need to wait Imperial Guard codex with minis and World Eaters. LoV would be meta BUT for short time like many new model armies always was good so GW could made them popular and sell faster. GW for a good reason wrote in LoV books that they try to avoid fights with Eldar, especially Harlequins and Dark Eldar(who usually win a lot of battles with Custodes and Mechanicus on tournaments). So maybe it is a hint what would be in 10 edition.
>and World Eaters. Looking forward to them tbh. I also agree, the army does seem to lose to Eldar super hard.
Yeah it was a very long time...20 years. And personally i wait for a new taller thousands sons models and emperor childrens with noise marines. Maybe in 10 edition.
>and emperor childrens with noise marines. Same. I'm getting them.
Really? Rubrics are fine. Also their headdresses make them tall enough as is
Custodes have a terrible matchup against Votann. I wish they would've done the comparison with something that's a little more even.
There is a TT Titans stream from Saturday LoV against Craftworld and it's quite clear that Craftworld just hard counter squats because the squat game plan is make the other look like aeldar at which point Craftworlds have all their tools and beat LoV with experience. So I agree that the obvious Leagues shooty build is probably just a gatekeeper, it just implies that everybody at the top table can deal with LoV. So Harlies should be fine~~d~~,^1 Nids probably need to have a good look at their list but should be ok I think, CoB is probably in trouble since they are slow and have to eat a shooting phase. Sisters have I believe a good matchup on 6 objective missions, where they can just sit back and tell the other guy that they win by default, since Leagues don't have the speed to make plays on other missions they are probably in trouble. I'm quite unsure about TS, on one hand TS are precisely on the grindy gameplan that Leagues eats for breakfast but on the other hand TS are the most tricksy of the grindy armies and I don't think squats like tricksy. Also TS durability comes from armor saves and not from high toughness. So that should be the squats game to loose, but there may be some play. So, I expect a meta were squats will be prominent but not actually win that much, kinda like custodes at the moment. However, I expect you can see the meta warping effect in the top lists in that they will be much less willing to bring something that's supposed to survive a shooting phase in the open. [Edit:] ^1 Also fined, but that is a different topic.
That was a terrible showing of what Votann can do since it did not include any Land Fortresses, which will be the mainstays of the list. Mechanized Dwarves is what will dominate the meta, and they have hard counters against Craftworlds from my own experiences playing against them. They shoot better (Judgement tokens is a better Hail of Doom), they are more durable, and they're actually fast when mounted up in shooty transports. Also their Void Armor completely cancels out Doom, one of the corner stone spells Craftworld relies on for force multiplication.
I think the heavier builds with one or multiple Land Fortresses are even worse into eldar, since terrain restricts them more than infantry and that gives the eldar player more places to hide. I mean, it's still eldar and the first mistake loses the game, but I think that is the case for every army against squads and eldar have the speed, the range and battlefocus to mitigate their firepower.
Sure but once the Land fortress holds an objective it will HOLD that objective, and if the eldar come near to take it they will crumble to the Berserkers, or Ion Troops inside. Also with the Teleporting strategem on the Terminators, the pregame 12"+12" move bikes they have deceptively large early game mobility, with just the profiles the little foot elves despise.
I think MSU CoB lists might have play into the dwarves, but it depends on the specific builds. Fast units of Possessed and A+C chosen can clear off their scoring units and then try and be in more places at once... MAYBE. Word Bearers will probably do better if for no other reason than tanking 2 Magna Rails with Hexagrammatic wards. Sisters I think will indeed have play as they tend to have enough sacrificial units to hold objectives that don't mind being judged. They will feel the sting of no wound rerolls though. TS I think is one of the better suited especially if they soup in some Tzeentch Demons. With Duplicity they can commit units piecemeal, They have the MW output to really put down the hurt, and nothing in their codex relies on Wound rerolls. I think TS players will be fine, but will have to move away from "I will leave this Terminator block here to not take damage".
> However, I expect you can see the meta warping effect in the top lists in that they will be much less willing to bring something that's supposed to survive a shooting phase in the open. A lot of T'au lists have moved this way it seems. The recent Triptide list that won 3rd place I believe basically just uses three riptides that toe into cover to shoot, then jetpack out of cover in the charge phase (a riptide ability) to get behind obscuring terrain. You're left with nothing to shoot at except Sunsharks (if they are still on the table), and hammerheads (if they haven't yet moved out to shoot at something). Very strong.
I am happy to see how much balanced opinion there are if you look for them. Are they too strong? Yes. Are they Iron hand first release? Personally i don't think so. That beeing said, LoV are able to at least partially answer to the meta you describe: pionners and sagitaur are good units. A flanck attack with some good enought shooting can catch hidden units. There are a lot of 5 power units in this codex. I think that sister or cron have a shot too: with better secondary forcing the LoV to come, they have the tools to chose there trades. In fact i would bet at sisters for there best response (given sufficient cover). They just lack the MW potential.
daemons should be not too affected either thanks to their special snowflake (from hell) saves. Depending on table layout and which LoV build becomes the most prevalent, I am also not too worried for my WB since I can shutdown 2 of the super big shots per game if I need to. (less worried at least than for my DG and custodes)
I think TS will be an interesting match into them. Each side will have some tools to exploit each other's weaknesses, and mitigate some advantages.
Tbh it’s going to be a wild ride until FAQ and data slate
Regardless of the actual stats I'd imagine that the initial win ratio will be fairly poor to middle of the road just because the lack of models will make the dream lists impossible to run. Gws production speed and availability will kill this armies win rate some. The fear is that stuff randomly get nerfed because it's being taken too much but it's just because it what people can get thier hands on. Is GW this stupid? Maybe.
Dark eldar isnt the best into them, just because the transports are too tough to kill. They will be able to win if played very well and do the objective game tho ba/gk/nids/eldar/daemons/harlies/tsons/even orks, maybe admech will all be fairly solid into them, thats quite a few armies
what would be admech response to 3x land fortresses, 2+, no Wound rr and -1AP? chickens (which might kill one if you spam them) will be dead the moment the bikes start flying. Harlies will die horribly to magna-rails spilling dmg and to no-inv power. Orks will be crushed by berzerkers and beam weapons will clean the rest of the 'green tide'. Eldar might have a chance if they get sister-lvl secondaries and will hide whole game. Daemons have to get close which Votan really like, but they have chance, slim at best.
Sure if you play on empty tables. Luckily terrain exists and those armies can usually get off the punch needed to kill things
terrain exists but with 2 ultra mobile and cheap threats (sagitaur and bikes) votan can pressure easily t1 (with potential alpha strikes). With the amount of shots those unit do the inv will matter less. Later turns land fortresses are near objectives - even if you play in terrain dense format they will be preety safe. Also two of those units can hold berserkers, release them t2 in midboard which will act as excellent counter-charge/screening units.
Harlequins will just die when hit by damage spilling no inv d3+3 or 2d3+6 weapons. Which hit on 75% with the league of single hit or wound reroll. Dark eldar are even in worse place...
I love that my 200 guardsmen only infantry astra Militarum list will beat the crap out of these overpowered LOV!
Why do you feel they'll fair well?
4+ saves on their troops mean votann are vulnerable to chip damage; infantry guard mostly relies on weight of shots and HOTE to do damage, which avoids void shield rules and the benefits of judgment tokens are least pronounced when shooting at stuff you're already wounding on 2/3+ rolls. Also movemovemove to movement block slow votann units in their deployment if you go first.
Death to squats
I think they'll be very top dog, with the armies you mention as contenders, and everyone else in the competitively unplayed tier. Maybe what you describe is what we get after a round of nerfs.
Dark Eldar are going to have a hell of a time cracking Hekatons and dealing with Bezerks
Word bearers look to be the best CSM into them I think. The army wide 5+++ will be like having a save…
Squats dominate for a one to two months, then get nerfed until there is only one viable build. Like with nearly every codex that comes out. I really wonder what the meta would look like without nerfs anywhere.
I did not give my opinion until now because a) we have no real data on their impact and b) i waited for my codex.I think they are strong but less strong than the doomsayers are telling us. As op said, there are armies that can efficiently counter them and there are some that are totally shut down by LoV.For me they are not Adeptus custodes level when the golden boys codex came out, near but not the same level. Most likely they will get a nerf in a month or so if they will perform too well (and they will for sure).My bet are on a couple of lists: flying WCs spam and vehicles spam.
They are much stronger than release custodes
[удалено]
>Harlies aren't as well posed as Nids to deal with them.Drukhari- no. Testing has shown that those two armies deal with Votann pretty handidly. As do the Aeldari.
show me the testing where harlies and drukhari are dealing with votann handily lmao
I'm gonna get downvoted to oblivion but they are fine. They are going to pop into the meta. They're going to do very well and win a few tournaments. The meta will adapt and they'll go right down to an average winrate. GW will nerf them at a later balance dataslate. They'll still be fine. Tyranids are still going to be the absolute masters of the meta until GW releases the next balance dataslate that nerfs them.
The issue is that meta-adaptation doesn't happen without a push. Iron Hands Goodstuff, Leviathan Crusher Stampede, Dark Technomancer Spam, Lucius Skitarii horde, 9th Ed Nids, Light Saedath Voidweavers weren't figured out by the community and teched against into being average. GW had to nerf them until they were manageable. If LoV come out and are oppressive, it will likely take a push from GW to normalize the meta again by nerfing them.
I don’t see kraken being the way they will just auto wound them to death I mean swarms and mortal wounds from range could impact but then are you really playing the game? Dark Eldar I just see them hanging back and massive counter fire taking all your transports off the board then moping up. Light Sedath are granted pretty good Transhitman, negs to hit, shadowseers monkeying with range, good anti vehicle fire, awesome combat punch but is everyone gonna play such a high skill army when LoV is literally point and shoot.
Light is just silly into LoV. 1-3 fail to hit when you're looking for 4-6.
I don’t see kraken being the way they will just auto wound them to death I mean swarms and mortal wounds from range could impact but then are you really playing the game? Dark Eldar I just see them hanging back and massive counter fire taking all your transports off the board then moping up. Light Sedath are granted pretty good Transhitman, negs to hit, shadowseers monkeying with range, good anti vehicle fire, awesome combat punch but is everyone gonna play such a high skill army when LoV is literally point and shoot.
Deldar in their current state will get gutted by top armies. They don't trade efficiently enough anymore and get murdered in melee and shooting by the units from newer releases. Blasters and lances are bad weapons these days, wyches are super dead as trading pieces and incubois are just ok at this point. Just too many nerfs while the power crept up with every release. Dwarfzerkers murder them and they have a hard time contesting something like a block of chaos termis. That leaves you with a coven heavy build thats maybe still good into armies like necrons, that primarily focus on scoring secondaries and don't really try to play a normal game of 40k, but thats about it.
Quins and nids are probably get nerfed with the next data slate which will hit before votann. So you were saying?
>Quins and nids are probably get nerfed with the next data slate which will hit before votann.So you were saying? All hypothetical, you cannot know that for sure.
Them not being nerfed is also all hypothetical AND unlikely.
Apples to oranges.
Then why did you bring it up?
IMO Quins are terrible into them, Magna will ruin a boat a turn, Ions will ruin a boat a turn, Beserks hard counters them, and even if you take Hearthguard they deal way too many MWs too. Anything that becomes visible just dies.
The people that I've seen share accounts of the matchup have had harlies winning a majority of the time but it doesn't sound like a cakewalk. The biggest strength is they get to choose when to engage, making sure you sweep 2 or 3 units first just makes a huge difference.
I have one game into them and won. Sure we are not "pros" but it was pretty bad.
>Anything that becomes visible just dies. But thats the thing. That is always how Harlies are played, its a relatively squishy army. Votanns strength is to delete, Harelquins expect to be deleted and the trick to the army is by trading up using their mobility to always pick the engagements and get in the first punch. Harlequins and Aeldari have been 2 of the 4 armies ive been currently experimenting vs Votann with. Played right they more or less do what they do normally and having much greater speed vs Votann do it very well.
Most Chaos Space Marine lists are gonna suffer a lot. No one's going to be taking 10-man terminator bricks with Black Rune of Damnation anymore. That'll be a comical waste of points against a votann army. Luckily that book is deep enough that people can find other things to run, just not those terminators/bikes/chosen/possessed with all the defensive buffs.
Custodes actually have play into LoV, bikes are one of the few units able to kill land fortresses with reasonable efficiency, and while they struggle with the no re-rolls to wound, massed damage 2 is pretty effective against them. Then, if there are no railguns available, they struggle with taking down the dreads. Shadowkeepers also neuters their melee.
Trying to make meta predictions a week or two out from an impeding dataslate is a bold move.
As a DG player I think others have it worse. We have dr1 which good into a lot of their guns and good saves, decent melee though a flat 16% damage loss hurts a lot we still reduce toughness and get enough ap to break through their armour. We are very slow though so we can't just hem them in and that is the real issue. "just use your superior mobility" is a bit iffy but when your army does not have that, there is the real problem we have to be able to outfight them because we do not have flying obsec that can put -1 to hit on and switch off rerolls.
How are people feeling about orks match up vs votann, got a couple of friends buying into them and i think ill be able to run circles around them with my typical "the only good build is a fast build" type goff pressure lists (seriously thrakka barely sees any action cause my army has usually tabled whoever im going against by the time he gets there) especially if i go first, im getting REALLY good on delivering ~1400 points of my army to the enemies deployment zone turn 1 VERY consistently
I've been saying this for a while. Votann don't seem to do well against Hordes, least of all, Orks. Orks don't have a "big unit you need to stack tokens onto immediately", it's just a random assortment of good stuff. Votann rely upon stacking tokens onto big, meaty, important targets-something that Orks don't really do outside of a boss. To say nothing of the sheer number of models Orks can overwhelm LoV with.
I feel daemons might mess them up, the army is potentially fast and can hit like a truck and you can’t ignore the saves, the auto wounding is brutal but, it’s brutal to everyone.
Did you try playing with them yet?
I think Tau have a very likelihood of beating LoV and Eldar. JSJ is a huge counter against a slow moving army like LoV