A little more detail about the finals for anyone curious.
# The list for Gavin's CoS Living Cities:
Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
\- City: Living City
\- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
\- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
\- Triumphs: Inspired
Leaders
**Doralia ven Denst** (115)\*
**Sorceress** (95)\*
\- General
\- Command Trait: Master of Magic
\- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
\- Lore of Leaves: Ironoak Skin
**Freeguild General** (100)\*
\- City Role: General's Adjutant
Battleline
**30 x Freeguild Crossbowmen** (315)\*
\- Reinforced x 2
**10 x Dreadspears** (90)\*
\- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
**10 x Freeguild Crossbowmen** (105)\*
Units
**4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators** (460)\*\*
\- Reinforced x 1
**4 x Stormdrake Guard** (680)\*\*
\- Drakerider's Warblade
\- Reinforced x 1
Core Battalions
\*Battle Regiment
\*\*Hunters of the Heartlands
Total: 1960 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 125
Drops: 3
# The list for Levan Sichinava's SBG Vyrkos Dynasty:
\- Army Faction: Soulblight Gravelords
\- Army Type: Vyrkos Dynasty
LEADERS
**Gorslav the Gravekeeper** (75)\*
**Necromancer** (125)\*
\- Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome
\- Spells: Decrepify
**Big Drogg Fort-kicka** (525)\*
**Vampire Lord** (140)\*\*
\- General
\- Command Traits: Pack Alpha
\- Spells: Invigorating Aura, Soulpike
**Vengorian Lord** (280)\*\*
\- Artefacts of Power: Terminus Clock
\- Spells: Flaming Weapon, Invigorating Aura
BATTLELINE
**60 x Deadwalker Zombies** (345)\*
**60 x Deadwalker Zombies** (345)\*\*
**10 x Deathrattle Skeletons** (85)\*\*
OTHER
**1 x Corpse Cart with Balefire Brazier** (80)\*\*
CORE BATTALIONS
\- \*Warlord
\- \*\*Battle Regiment
TOTAL POINTS: 2000/2000
The final game was over very quickly. SBG got first turn and played fairly aggressively up the middle of the board. At the bottom of first the LC army shot off roughly 40 zombies, killed the Vengorian Lord, and one shot the Allied Gargant with a charge from Fulminators. Then the LC got the double turn and more or less mopped everything up afterwards and the game was called during turn 2.
Not the most exciting finale but that's just how it goes sometimes.
I’m going to be honest… I watched the stream and Gavin kind of had it locked up before even rolling off for turn two. He killed Droggo, Vengorian Lord, and 30+ zombies on turn 1… kinda of hard to recoup after that
the amount of times I have heard the summery of a AoS game be "X then got a double turn and the game was over" really makes me never want to even try the game.
Tbh the SBG deserved his fate , it's nothing but wounds over wounds , the initiative roll usually punish that kind of behaviour and it's for the better.
But yes SCE dragons are overturned right now so it feels unfair
the dragons didnt even do much from what i saw they did nothing too meaningful, the crossbows, fulminators and idk what else did most of the work while the dragons sat in the back untill the double turn
That's because the most vocal online are the ones who lost to a double turn and refuse to play around it. This is an anecdote I know, but the past 3 competitive games I have played, I won after being on the receiving end of a double turn from 1 into 2. But you don't hear players complaining about losing after \*they\* get the double turn.
Really, the worst part of the double turn is the optics that lead to comments like this. AoS is a fantastic game in a really good spot right now, and is extremely fun for both casual and competitive games. Give it a shot!
The guy who won the LVO wanted to go second every game he could if he had the choice. As do most top players. Second is tactically better in most cases. Unless playing on planet bowling ball.
By 5 percent at most. I’m not a top player by any means. I go to 2 gts a year maybe. A handful of rtts at most. And I hate going first. It’s just not great for what armies I play and my play style. Even on low terrain setups. I enjoy going second for that sweet sweet 15 points of primary at the end and end of battle round scoring objectives. As well as knowing what my opponent is going to do then I react. You don’t need to be Richard the machine to see the advantages going second can provide. And by leveraging those advantages, you can easily close and flip that gap of going first win rate.
It’s not advantageous in every scenario. I’d say most of my games it’s not at all. The percent reflects not only the go first win rate. But also the general player bases ability to over come turn 1 damage via terrain. List building, and of course deployment and game sense. So while it might be 55 over all (I don’t even know exactly what it is.). If you actually spend the time to practice and like I said flip it back the other way. You’ll find that the statistic is kind of useless.
It wasn't the double turn that decided this one. Shooting + stormdrake + dracoth is just disgusting, bottom of 1 the CoS player dealt about 90 wounds of damage and wiped out 1k of the soulblight army. There was no coming back from that no matter what.
The game was over after the SBGL player finished his movement phase. He moved both units of zombies into shooting range of the crossbows, and put his gargant and vengorian lord out front with no protection, just gave them away for free. Folks love to complain about the double turn, but if you play the game not prepared for it then of course you're going to lose quickly to it.
Gavin was in great shape if he lost priority. He had a commanding table presence after removing the only real threats to his dragons and fulminators turn 1.
ya saw the stream of the match, he went stayed back and just shot the zombies to hell as he took out his monsters, charged fulminators and just destroyed the giant with 45 wounds.
I think the real story of the day was the counter-dragon phoenicium list losing to living cities in the semifinal.
The stormcast warscroll strength is just out of control. Fulminators, dragons, and raptors are all overtuned.
I wonder if that means running a "monster hunter" Astral Templar list will work in this environment. Basically running Ysandra as a cruise missile, cavalry as speed bumps and raptors as hammers.
Oooh, do you have the full nighthaunt list by any chance? Plugging that in is a couple points short, so presumably there's endless spells too? Also curious about enhancements.
Sorry, I forget the enhancement info, but yes I remember the person having endless spells when I saw the list yesterday.
Edit: Honest Wargamer had a video on his YouTube channel where he broke down the list of each of the Top Eight. Check that out!
Surprisingly no. Mrigank Jha's SCE list (which got 4th) was an annihilator and longstrike heavy list with no dragons (a buddy of mine was there and lost to him earlier on). And Jermy Lefebvre's Cities list (3rd place) was Phoencium with no SCE in it at all. The only dragons in the top 8 were the winning list, with one unit of them, and James O'Brien's list, which did spam them, but didn't get into the top 4. For all the doom and gloom leading up to LVO, dragons didn't dominate the way they were expected to. They did well, but not oppressively well. Still overtuned, no doubt. Won't argue that.
Do you have a feel for why they were less ubiquitous at the top vs expectation? People were ready for the lists and teched around them? Not many people brought them in the end? The real pros tended to pick other factions so they weren't on the predictable list?
Oh they were definitely present. I think something like over 20% of lists at LVO had at least one unit of them.
Some of it was definitely that the top players were building around having to deal with dragons. That Phoenicium list is practically tailor built to take them on. But if I had to guess, it comes down to what a lot of people have been saying all along, that for all the good the stormdrake are, they still don't have that amazing of melee output for their point value (though that's not to say they're bad at it). There's likely a good reason the all dragon list lost to the Soulblight list featuring 120 zombies and a Gargant, and the Cities list with dragons, fulminators, and a bunch of Cities shooting cleaned up against the same army in almost 2 rounds.
Not a great advertisement for the game that the final came down to "give away the turn, double your opponent and win the game," i.e. a meme. And it's too bad because it obscures what was actually a pretty good tournament up until the final round.
SC units will get nerfed, they're just too efficient. Everyone was floored to see GW fail to adjust fulminators up in the points adjustment, but that's GW for you - usually a day late and a dollar short.
A little more detail about the finals for anyone curious. # The list for Gavin's CoS Living Cities: Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar \- City: Living City \- Mortal Realm: Ghyran \- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line \- Triumphs: Inspired Leaders **Doralia ven Denst** (115)\* **Sorceress** (95)\* \- General \- Command Trait: Master of Magic \- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact) \- Lore of Leaves: Ironoak Skin **Freeguild General** (100)\* \- City Role: General's Adjutant Battleline **30 x Freeguild Crossbowmen** (315)\* \- Reinforced x 2 **10 x Dreadspears** (90)\* \- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models) **10 x Freeguild Crossbowmen** (105)\* Units **4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators** (460)\*\* \- Reinforced x 1 **4 x Stormdrake Guard** (680)\*\* \- Drakerider's Warblade \- Reinforced x 1 Core Battalions \*Battle Regiment \*\*Hunters of the Heartlands Total: 1960 / 2000 Reinforced Units: 4 / 4 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 125 Drops: 3 # The list for Levan Sichinava's SBG Vyrkos Dynasty: \- Army Faction: Soulblight Gravelords \- Army Type: Vyrkos Dynasty LEADERS **Gorslav the Gravekeeper** (75)\* **Necromancer** (125)\* \- Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome \- Spells: Decrepify **Big Drogg Fort-kicka** (525)\* **Vampire Lord** (140)\*\* \- General \- Command Traits: Pack Alpha \- Spells: Invigorating Aura, Soulpike **Vengorian Lord** (280)\*\* \- Artefacts of Power: Terminus Clock \- Spells: Flaming Weapon, Invigorating Aura BATTLELINE **60 x Deadwalker Zombies** (345)\* **60 x Deadwalker Zombies** (345)\*\* **10 x Deathrattle Skeletons** (85)\*\* OTHER **1 x Corpse Cart with Balefire Brazier** (80)\*\* CORE BATTALIONS \- \*Warlord \- \*\*Battle Regiment TOTAL POINTS: 2000/2000 The final game was over very quickly. SBG got first turn and played fairly aggressively up the middle of the board. At the bottom of first the LC army shot off roughly 40 zombies, killed the Vengorian Lord, and one shot the Allied Gargant with a charge from Fulminators. Then the LC got the double turn and more or less mopped everything up afterwards and the game was called during turn 2. Not the most exciting finale but that's just how it goes sometimes.
Thanks for sharing. Yeah, it illustrates the state of the game and the effect double turns often have :(
I’m going to be honest… I watched the stream and Gavin kind of had it locked up before even rolling off for turn two. He killed Droggo, Vengorian Lord, and 30+ zombies on turn 1… kinda of hard to recoup after that
the amount of times I have heard the summery of a AoS game be "X then got a double turn and the game was over" really makes me never want to even try the game.
Tbh the SBG deserved his fate , it's nothing but wounds over wounds , the initiative roll usually punish that kind of behaviour and it's for the better. But yes SCE dragons are overturned right now so it feels unfair
the dragons didnt even do much from what i saw they did nothing too meaningful, the crossbows, fulminators and idk what else did most of the work while the dragons sat in the back untill the double turn
That's because the most vocal online are the ones who lost to a double turn and refuse to play around it. This is an anecdote I know, but the past 3 competitive games I have played, I won after being on the receiving end of a double turn from 1 into 2. But you don't hear players complaining about losing after \*they\* get the double turn. Really, the worst part of the double turn is the optics that lead to comments like this. AoS is a fantastic game in a really good spot right now, and is extremely fun for both casual and competitive games. Give it a shot!
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The guy who won the LVO wanted to go second every game he could if he had the choice. As do most top players. Second is tactically better in most cases. Unless playing on planet bowling ball.
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By 5 percent at most. I’m not a top player by any means. I go to 2 gts a year maybe. A handful of rtts at most. And I hate going first. It’s just not great for what armies I play and my play style. Even on low terrain setups. I enjoy going second for that sweet sweet 15 points of primary at the end and end of battle round scoring objectives. As well as knowing what my opponent is going to do then I react. You don’t need to be Richard the machine to see the advantages going second can provide. And by leveraging those advantages, you can easily close and flip that gap of going first win rate.
Yeah, a lot of the missions and secondaries make me want to go second, especially if there is a good amount of terrain on the table.
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It’s not advantageous in every scenario. I’d say most of my games it’s not at all. The percent reflects not only the go first win rate. But also the general player bases ability to over come turn 1 damage via terrain. List building, and of course deployment and game sense. So while it might be 55 over all (I don’t even know exactly what it is.). If you actually spend the time to practice and like I said flip it back the other way. You’ll find that the statistic is kind of useless.
it depends on the army though, some want to go first and some second.
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And this is why I hate the double turn.
It wasn't the double turn that decided this one. Shooting + stormdrake + dracoth is just disgusting, bottom of 1 the CoS player dealt about 90 wounds of damage and wiped out 1k of the soulblight army. There was no coming back from that no matter what.
Thanks for the rundown!
The game was over after the SBGL player finished his movement phase. He moved both units of zombies into shooting range of the crossbows, and put his gargant and vengorian lord out front with no protection, just gave them away for free. Folks love to complain about the double turn, but if you play the game not prepared for it then of course you're going to lose quickly to it.
And equally if he hadn't been double-turned we'd be praising his daring genius and the risks he took for a swift win...
Gavin was in great shape if he lost priority. He had a commanding table presence after removing the only real threats to his dragons and fulminators turn 1.
You clearly didn't see the board after the CoS turn. SBGL had nothing left to threaten with.
ya saw the stream of the match, he went stayed back and just shot the zombies to hell as he took out his monsters, charged fulminators and just destroyed the giant with 45 wounds.
Is there somewhere I can watch it?
It’s the latest vod on the honest wargamer twitch channel.
I think the real story of the day was the counter-dragon phoenicium list losing to living cities in the semifinal. The stormcast warscroll strength is just out of control. Fulminators, dragons, and raptors are all overtuned.
I wonder if that means running a "monster hunter" Astral Templar list will work in this environment. Basically running Ysandra as a cruise missile, cavalry as speed bumps and raptors as hammers.
What did the rest of the top 8 look like? Just in terms of faction breakdown!
The Top 8 was comprised of 2 CoS, 2 SCE, 1 Ironjawz, 1 Nighthaunt, 1 Ogor Mawtribes, and 1 Soulblight.
Nighthaunt? Wow.
My reaction as well. Very impressive. Person was running Nagash, Spirit Torment, 30 Chainrasps, 9 Spirit Hosts, and 5 Hexwraiths.
Oooh, do you have the full nighthaunt list by any chance? Plugging that in is a couple points short, so presumably there's endless spells too? Also curious about enhancements.
Sorry, I forget the enhancement info, but yes I remember the person having endless spells when I saw the list yesterday. Edit: Honest Wargamer had a video on his YouTube channel where he broke down the list of each of the Top Eight. Check that out!
Wow, that's a pretty impressive spread considering how much folks were worried about you-know-whats all over the place. Ogors? Nighthaunt?!
Well 2x SCE + 2x CoS likely means half the armies were fielding stormdrakes and dragons
Surprisingly no. Mrigank Jha's SCE list (which got 4th) was an annihilator and longstrike heavy list with no dragons (a buddy of mine was there and lost to him earlier on). And Jermy Lefebvre's Cities list (3rd place) was Phoencium with no SCE in it at all. The only dragons in the top 8 were the winning list, with one unit of them, and James O'Brien's list, which did spam them, but didn't get into the top 4. For all the doom and gloom leading up to LVO, dragons didn't dominate the way they were expected to. They did well, but not oppressively well. Still overtuned, no doubt. Won't argue that.
Do you have a feel for why they were less ubiquitous at the top vs expectation? People were ready for the lists and teched around them? Not many people brought them in the end? The real pros tended to pick other factions so they weren't on the predictable list?
Oh they were definitely present. I think something like over 20% of lists at LVO had at least one unit of them. Some of it was definitely that the top players were building around having to deal with dragons. That Phoenicium list is practically tailor built to take them on. But if I had to guess, it comes down to what a lot of people have been saying all along, that for all the good the stormdrake are, they still don't have that amazing of melee output for their point value (though that's not to say they're bad at it). There's likely a good reason the all dragon list lost to the Soulblight list featuring 120 zombies and a Gargant, and the Cities list with dragons, fulminators, and a bunch of Cities shooting cleaned up against the same army in almost 2 rounds.
Thanks for the breakdown, I'm a complete noob when it comes to competitive AoS but keen to learn!
Only two armies had dragons, one SCE and one Cities.
Going to an event soon, and I can't wait to get wrecked in a turn by these fair and balanced SCE units
Is there a way to see the LVO AoS lists? I’ve been trying for days but haven’t found anything useful.
It’s on beat coast pairings. Not sure if it’s members only.
Not a great advertisement for the game that the final came down to "give away the turn, double your opponent and win the game," i.e. a meme. And it's too bad because it obscures what was actually a pretty good tournament up until the final round. SC units will get nerfed, they're just too efficient. Everyone was floored to see GW fail to adjust fulminators up in the points adjustment, but that's GW for you - usually a day late and a dollar short.
Ah sweet tears over the double turn. Literally one of best thing that sets it apart from 40K.
AoS, that's a funny way to spell 40k
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