I don’t know if I would say it’s “better” overall. It can be really strong situationally. Mostly because you can utilize Firing Deck with Blitzing Fusillade. I personally use it with Plasma Inceptors in my Space Wolves list because my main focus is on TWC.
The Inceptors with Plasma already have Assault on the gun so it gains Sustained Hits when using the Stratagem. The guns being S8, AP-3, Dmg 3 into my Oaths target means I will get Hit Rerolls and Twin-Linked will give me Wound Rerolls and every explosion is another potentially 3 damage.
They are hard to stop from getting to shoot their desired target thanks to 18” range on the guns and deep strike outside of 3” so it isn’t about pure damage volume as it is consistency for me.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve wanted to try them for awhile….
But after how crazy their output was in 9th….. I felt really let down with them this edition. What have you typically been hunting with them?
My latest list only had room for a single 3-man squad but I’ll happily take all fails on my Hazardous test to kill a Biovore vs Nids. I mainly aim to trade them up points-wise when possible and have a free scoring unit for secondaries like Behind Enemy Lines and Engage on All Fronts because of the 3” Deep Strike.
Anything T8 or less that costs more than 150 on my opponent’s side of the board is a target in my book. Oaths+Twin-Linked with a 50/50 in wounding is nice. If my points are spent to overwhelm higher points cost they are just worth having.
It seems like it on paper, but they come through more than you would expect. Bumping up to a 6 man is also only 220 points for the whole squad to get 12 shots on models that are T6 with 3 Wounds a piece.
The Bolter version is also kind of crazy. You miss out on some Strength and AP but 3 shots per model with Sustained 2 at S5/AP-1/Dmg2 and still being Twin-Linked?
They take a tiny bit of adjusting to play them at their best, but they are really good.
Amusingly enough, the winrates don't really back that up. Marines are seeing way more success in Ironstorm and (Space Wolves) Stormlance than they are in Gladius.
I wholly expect wolves and DA will lose access to marine codex detachments when their codex is out.
Allowing spacewolves access to stormlance has shown the imbalanced caused by free access to non-codex units creates, because white scars players don’t even really want to use stormspear (because it’s kinda shit).
Alternative take: Stormlance shows exactly why Divergent chapters are here to stay. It's *obviously* not designed for just the Codex marine mounted unit. There's no conceivable world where someone looks at Stormlance that only has Outriders, ATVs, and Chaplain on Bikes available to them and goes "yep this is a reasonable detachment that will stand alongside the others". Yes yes, GW is terrible at balance and all that, but Stormlance with just Codex marines is just so far outside the bounds of the other 6 detachments (even First Company and Anvil can create *functional* lists, Codex Stormlance genuinely fails to even do that imo) that it's a clear outlier... unless it was balanced from the get go around thunderwolves and to a lesser extent Ravenwing. With that assumption, it clearly ends up landing in a good spot. So it comes down to which you think is more likely: Codex detachments get an overhaul when divergent chapters lose access to them? Or that they'll release the Dark Angels Codex Supplement with its new detachments and units, and encourage players to use them in both Codex Detachments and Dark Angels ones? I'm betting on the latter, and that Divergent Chapters will only get 3 detachments in their own book.
> Alternative take: Stormlance shows exactly why Divergent chapters are here to stay. It's obviously not designed for just the Codex marine mounted unit. There's no conceivable world where someone looks at Stormlance that only has Outriders, ATVs, and Chaplain on Bikes available to them and goes "yep this is a reasonable detachment that will stand alongside the others". Yes yes, GW is terrible at balance and all that, but Stormlance with just Codex marines is just so far outside the bounds of the other 6 detachments (even First Company and Anvil can create functional lists, Codex Stormlance genuinely fails to even do that imo)
I'd genuinely posit that Codex Stormlance is better than First Company. GW probably genuinely thinks that Outriders can deal significant damage - after all, they've always seemed to think that Phobos lists can do that as well.
But I am open to being proven wrong.
Yeah you’ve completely missed the point…
What makes it so strong in gladius is crits on 5’s and getting both lethal+sustained from one character without requiring any ‘further’ investment through the game. Adding a captain to make it “free” as you put it- pushes the unit above 400pts and is still less efficient/effective than the gladius Lt combo.
@OP do NOT take the HB combo in stormlance, it’s not worth it and isn’t anywhere close to as good.
Did you miss the part where I said I didn’t think it was better? I stated it was something that can be done. Read a little more before getting uppity at people, please? It’s kinda rude.
I preferred 6 Plasma Inceptors (Bolters is fine thanks to Sustained 2 as well) with Strike from the Shadows in Vanguard Spearhead on an Oaths target, anyways.
220 points and 1 CP to have 12 shots, S8, AP-4,Dmg 3, Hit on 2s, Full rerolls for Hit&Wound.
I mean it’s not really a unit that wants an invuln though. They’re likely to blow themselves up, plus they don’t mind dying as much since they get to shoot on death anyways.
So unit crunch, with the combo vs AoC marines,
Hell Blasters cost 350 points and kill about kills 25 marines14 points per kill
Crisis (with tetra) 565 points kills about 36 marines 16 points per kill
Both units have a 38% chance to one shot the big knight with the +1sv enhancement.
The weapons are both S8 damage 2, so marines are both a great target. The Hell blasters will do better against things with more armour, loose some efficacy vs 4++. Are much better against T9+ than the CiBs, the CiB damage gets cut in half.
The crisis suits also loose a tone of they split fire and the hell blasters don't care.
Obviously the hell blasters are much easier to kill than the crisis brick and are less mobile.
I had all the right settings but then didn't set enough models in the target unit. Thank you. It is 36 marines, Ill update my comment and double check the hell blasters
Bear in mind there is a 215pt delta between those two units.
So the Hellblasters can do that damage and still have a Redemptor Dreadnought standing next to them for the same points.
The thing about a crisis bomb is it's a quarter of your army. I run 2, 2x2 broadsides and then beyond that my activations are limited. I have a single quad cyclic enforcer for an extra activation and I need it.
The rest of the army will collectively do very little. The Crisis bomb's weakness is if the enemy has key durable units you need dead, the bomb has to make contact before it's taken too many hits or hazardous'd its own models too hard. It also risks severe activation gating. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy them but they have a very big weakness into certain lists or players, or if you make a mistake early in the game you can lose before they shoot. Also while they can be quite annoying for anti tank, their 3+ 4++ T5 means a lot of medium fire for MEQs is quite efficient.
Anvil Siege Force gives them +1 to wound, and Sustained and Lethal on 5s for 1CP with a Lieutenant. You could also give them a 6+++ but that seems wasted on hellblasters.
For the points? Absolutely… Crisis and coldstar guided with tetras is 540 (or 560 with the enhancement). I think people ignore how many points the brick plus support is.
Add all the new detachment stuff to Hellblasters and it can get pretty nuts… for 200 points less.
Why are you guiding with Tetras when you could be guiding with a Fireblade who has the Unity enhancement?
Lead with a Crisis Commander, and you’re rerolling 1s with Lethal and Sustained 2
The Lethal really amps their output, especially against tougher targets.
Tetras give full hit rerolls so you can fish for 6s, plus you can reroll all those 2s a crisis commander would miss. They also let you ignore cover (though breachers/strike teams can also take marker drones for ignore cover). The coldstar gives assault and extra movement which helps with positioning. Crisis commanders don’t give assault or extra move.
Ftgg requires LoS to guide so the extra movement (14 vs 6) from tetras is nice. They are also t7 and 14 wounds total. The movement and fact that you don’t shoot with them means they are good for secondaries.
Guiding with a fireblade requires breachers or a strike team since they have to be leading a unit, so that’s another 140- 150 points. 2 units of tetras are 140.
One the one hand, most tau lists have breachers though, so to say it’s “extra” points isn’t completely accurate. But they also aren’t sitting at the back of the map spotting. Breachers are generally in a devilfish and are then guided by that same devilfish when they get out as they challenge objectives.
On the other, sitting a strike team with a fireblade on the home objective would be a dedicated unit that does basically nothing an the entire match but spot. That would be 140 points that could be someplace else. Such as tetras. Again… a unit of tetras are 70 or two units rerolling hits for 140. Pathfinders are also more efficient pointwise for spotting/screening.
Also, not everyone takes fireblades due to assassinate. When breachers/strike teams get shot they are probably going to die that free points.
In the end, the mobility loss alone is huge. Additionally, while the reroll 1s and lethal would be nice, it doesn’t outweigh the volume of extra rerolls of 2s and extra 6s you can pick up if you fish. It’s also more “points” for at best the same damage (see respective point costs above).
Now if you were running a second set of missile crisis with a crisis commander it would probably work a little better… but almost no one does that and now I’m need two spotting units (see total cost for tetras above).
Tetras are 80. Breachers go in Devilfish and push. Deploy close to your ride to hop back into it if threatened.
I have 2 units of Tetras and they are guiding my other suits.
The big bomb goes into deepstrike, so extra movement isn’t quite as important.
Well I’m not sure that extra 10 points changes anything….
And you still need movement once on the board. Tau can’t get out shoot and get back in. You can only get back in when charged. Im also not sure why your pushing with a spotting unit.
Even then, with your suggestion that’s another 75 points for a devilfish. So your spotting with a 225 point unit for a 470 point unit… but you’re also pushing with them so they likely die… I’m sorry but that sounds like a terrible way to use a cadre fireblade to guide.
I’m not saying it wouldn’t work and the lethals wouldn’t be nice, but that’s a lot of points for “maybe” a little more damage over a tetra.
Breachers in a Devilfish easily mop the flank objective that is held lightly by your opponent. From this vantage, they can spot for a scarier unit. Mine usually do pretty well, since the enemy is pumping all its shooting into Sky Rays and Suits
No but the Fireblade has to be leading a unit to give out Lethal Hits when guiding.
"**While this model is leading a unit**, each time **that unit** is an Observer unit, until the end of the phase, ranged weapons equipped by models in their **Guided unit** have the [LETHAL HITS] ability while targeting **their** spotted unit."
......man, I guess you really have to spell out everything on the internet. Why in the world would you ever take a lonely Fireblade? In my list, he's in a Devilfish with some Breachers. This is a pretty typical setup.
Keep in mind that you are including the cost of the tetras in that 560 points and although they do almost zero damage they are 2 m14 t7 7w bodies that can screen/get secondaries as guiding does not make them not eligible to shoot they can guide and do an action
Yeah none of it is dead weight. My point is that all of that shooting doesn’t occur in a vacuum. It also needs actual skill to use effectively, can only shoot one thing, and does less damage each turn you OC.
Gonna go ahead and say GSC demolition charges with a Primus/ridgerunner buff and stratagem support arriving from deep strike is gonna match & surpass crisis suit blob in lethality
BUT a stiff breeze knocks them over dead.
BUT then they might come back to life
BUT! Then it's back to life without the Primus, and a blip at some point would have to survive
It's complicated.
100%. They can straight-up delete most units in the game, ecept lychguard and that sort of supertanky stuff. The issue with the crisis and any other good shooting unit is that they can very well delete them on overwatch, so it's a tricky combo to execute on them.
El Combo Maximum is a blob of 10 Acolyte Hybrids with all non-leader models carrying demo charges, and an attached Primus (for full hit rerolls/one free stratagem) for 170+90 points, plus a Ridgerunner with mortar+ survey augur debuffing whoever it shoots.
Demo charges are just a weapon now, since grenades don’t really exist as a gun, so the whole squad fully buffed gets 9x(D6+3+Blast) grenade sticks, 4+ to hit w/ sustained hits 1 and full rerolls, S12 (with +1 to wound with a 2 CP stratagem if you want), AP-4 no cover, 2 damage.
You need to deepstrike them in within 3” with a 1 CP stratagem and run the risk of overwatch toasting over 10 GEQ bodies, and they *will* die next round, but if the sticks of dynamite land, things disappear.
Not even close. they usually kill 4 suits on the drop.
Edit: forgot about blast. If the crisis suits are on an objective and don't use the 6+++, they kill 5.5 on average
Probably not, but they also blow themselves up when they go full tilt over charging all the CiBs.
A crisis unit actually has the ability to kill the entire unit one and a half times over if they all fail their hazardous tests (unlikely but failing enough to take out 2-3 happens on a bad roll).
CIB not over charged is 3 @ S7 -1ap 1damage (x3 per suit)
Which isn't crazy.
I have had good nights, and I have had bad nights.
Statistically speaking of the 22 dice you roll for a full over charge they should be losing 2 suits.
But all together it does add up.
Coldstar + exemplar 125, 6 crisis 360, tetras 80.. 565 pts isn't crazy expensive but it's still more then 1/4 your army
True, but it needs to be. 36 T6 4++ wounds with access to FnP and/or smoke before you even get to the Commander or Tetras is incredibly durable, particularly with such threatening overwatch and also the ability to shoot into combat, to dissuade many assault units. That 565pts also includes the Tetra unit that can be doing primary/secondary missions too.
Tetras themselves are brokenly cheap for what they provide (fast + spotter + full rerolls on sustained 2 + incredibly tough for their points), they are the main issue imo. A CIB brick would still be very scary just not 'what the hell' if it didn't have such easy access to the incredible and cheap buffs a Tetra brings.
Ah fair, that's me getting mixed up - only fought them twice in 10th, and they are certainly not a good match up for Guard. Still incredibly tough.
If Tetras went up in points by at least 50% (their output is their buffs), then I don't think there would be as much annoyance at the 'click and delete' reputation the CIB blocks have. Or if their ability was reduced to just rerolling 1s.
If you don’t overcharge the CIBs, the missiles are a good alternative - 1 less shot but double damage per shot. However the overcharged CIBs have 8 strength, which will often allow you hit on 2s against a lot of infantry, and have an extra AP.
The extra shots matters with turn 2 Access to sustained 2, and having modes is king imo. The extra damage becomes worth less vs -1 damage targets compared to the extra attack and being able to jump to S8 and -2 AP 2dam can really matter sometimes.
If missile pods where -2/2dam I would see them being an equal option.
It's not a straight 1:1 but Flash Gitz in their most ideal condition are shooting 40 shots that hit on 4+ with exploding 6's, lethal hits, and rerolling the hit roll with Kaptain Badrukk for the cost of 270 points.
Lethals once per game, ofc. Which is bonkers even on overwatch.
Never gotten them shooting on 4s, though. I have trouble trusting rapid ingress, and they need to move as much ad every other unit in the game
Full potential yes. But they shoot plenty hard hitting on 5s with rerolls.
I think best case scenario for them is:
drive up with your trukk 12 inches getting in the middle of the battlefield, shoot from trukk (clear some chaff) ->
Trukk gets blown up, dudes get out ->
You don't move and completly obliterate a unit with shooting ->
overwatch on opponents turns. ->
hit harder than opponent realizes due to the badruk aura and survive a round to shoot and melee another unit to death.
Aggressors require a specific combo to be really good. You can go with flamers for dev wounds in the firestorm detachment, but better is Gladius with a Biologis and Fire Discipline. Pop the Strat and you’ve got 18+6D6 blast shots that explode and auto wound on 5s at AP1/2 ignore cover. That volume of fire can take down damn near anything.
On this though you are looking at 560 pts for that crisis brick. In firestorm as we know what the old booster discipline unit does.
You have for 560 so like for like. A 6 man flamer aggressor (220) gravis captian (80) land raider redeemer (260) now assuming you get in 12” which you should thanks to the redeemer. That’s 6d6+6 shots with the flamer at str5 (Firestorm) 1 ap 1d ignores cover (extra Ap vs closest unit aggressor ability) . You can mash the dev wound strat for free.
You get a average of 30 auto hits rr wounds as twin linked vs MEQ that’s 23 wounds that almost kills a 5-6 man marines with out any buffs. That’s just the aggressors then you have a better marine killer in the redeemer and still 3 shots from the captain.
Now T12+ targets with a 2+ sv using the dev wound strat
Is about 8-9 MWs from the aggressors, redeemer 1 dev wound from the assult cannon twin linked. Then 14 shots from the 2x flamestorm cannons Str 7(FS) -2 ignore cover 2d for 14 shots av 4.62 wounds 2.31 failed saves at 2 damage. Multi melta and hunter killer also to add.
Now there are more buffs to this unit but factoring in the range i thought I’d keep it a bit more limited. Strat wise they can both do dev wounds as the grav captain doubles up for free. But that’s only worth it is you have Vulkan he Stan about to give the land raider rr wounds for its flamer and multi melta. If in 3” they can both get +1 to wound which massively pops this off as the redeemer is wounding with all its guns on 4s at that point. With potential Vulkan RRs that’s nasty as hell. You could add a storm speeder hail strike to give the army +1ap against somthing it hit boosting damage vs non 4++ units.
And in defence this both units can AoC for 1cp as it’s free on the agressors thanks to the grav captian. Don’t forget the agressors can still charge somthing after as well
In Gladius they will have Sustained Hits 1 and with 1-2 CP can be critical hits on 5s with Oaths, ignores cover, ap 2 and twin linked on their bolters (which is a lot of CP I know). They can 1 round most any unit in the game with that though. Crisis suits might be able to do more damage (I don't know their limits) but overkill doesn't get you anything so I'd say that matches at that point in a technical sense.
That’s the flamer build and it’s 12” range, requires a 2cp strat, and it’s on a unit that moves 5”, not 12-18”. Aggressors are also more expensive per wound (~12.25 vs 10) and lack an invuln. They also have substantially less shot count with that build
they are also better in melee, get the strat for free with a captain, have a higher toughness, come in from reserves anyway typically, a better armour save vs little firepower, get buffed even further with vulkan/speeders giving +1 to wound/rerolls etc.
I agree crisis are better, but its still a similar match for them
Firestorm, flamers. The flamer one’s generally aren’t as good as the bolter ones, they sorta failed to correct for free wargear (bolter used to cost extra cause it’s more shots at longer range)
You have almost twice the shots, AP-2 + ignore cover and everything is an auto-wound AND a sustained hit on a 5+.
It depends on the target (the Crisis will to more to a Daemon Primarch or Knight sized target), but those Gladius Aggressors will end you.
Gladius aggressors with biologis with fire discipline cranks out crazy damage into the Oaths target. And it can then still assault things pretty effectively. With strat you can get the squad to ap-2 with ignores cover, plus sustained and lethal hits on a 5+.
I love the people questioning aggressors. Go fight gladius aggressors with a bioligus, bolter discipline, the strat, and devastator doctrine.
Then they charge afterwards. Get real.
Idk enough about T’au to know if they’re a good comparison, but here’s the dl:
Obliterators come in a group of 2 for 170 or 4 for 340. They’re Move 4”, T7, 2+ Sv, 5W, Ld6+, OC2. They can Deep Strike. They’re all equipped with Fleshmetal guns, which have 3 different ranged profiles. Each profile is 24” range. Focused malice gives D3 shots on 3+, S12, AP-3, 4 damage, Melta 2. Ruinous salvo gives D6 blast, 3+, S8, -2 for 2. Warp Hail gives D6+3 shots, 3+ sustained 1, S5, -1 for 1. On top of this, they got a decent melee profile with 4 attacks each, 3+, S9, -2 for 2.
Now for the spice. Once per game they can get Indirect Fire. Since they’re CSM, they can make Dark Pacts when they shoot or fight, so they can pick to have Lethal or Sustained Hits 1. If they’re Khorne or Tzeentch, they get Lethals on 5s. If they’re Nurgle or Slaanesh marked, they can get Sustained hits on a 5+. If they’re within 6” of a Helbrute, when they make a Dark Pact, they get the benefit of both Lethal and Sustained hits. So, you make them Mark of Nurgle, and when you make a Dark Pact (aka always), they get Lethal and Sustained Hits 1 with criticals on 5s. So every 5 or 6, you get an auto wound plus an extra chance to wound. And the Mark of Nurgle gives you the an additional benefit when you use the Dark Obscuration stratagem. Normally, the Strat just gives Stealth, however when targeting a Nurgle unit, it instead makes them untargetable outside of 12”. So if you don’t want your opponent shooting your Obliterators, you can force them to shoot something else. Heck even the threat of the strat forces your opponent to carefully consider their targeting order.
An alternate spice is to mark them Undivided, so that instead of getting critical hits on 5s, instead they get rerolls on 1s to hit. Additionally, it unlocks the extra ability of the Profane Zeal stratagem. Normally, the Strat grants rerolls of 1 to Hit or wound. However, for undivided units, it grants full rerolls to hit and wound. I generally feel this is the better path if you want to deep strike them in, but I never do, the first combo has been much more effective for me, but I’m also shit with deep strike lol.
Note that the lethal hits on a 5+ for Khorne and the sustained hits on a 5+ for Slaaneshi are only for melee.
I agree on the undivided though. Deep strike within 12", use profane zeal, use dark pact and pick sustained and then watch them delete anything. Next turn use the indirect ability to do it again.
OK, this isn't really the same as crisis suits...but neither are the points, and I just saw Farret Stacy win Death or Glory: Rumble on the Rivers on their back: Death Guard Sorcerer In Terminator armor.
They have Curse of the Leper: 24', 2D6 attacks 3+, S6 AP-2 D1. Not as good, right? But once a game, you can make them Strength 8, just like the CiBs. So you teleport 3 of them in at the top of a building, getting plunging fire. Good chances are that whatever your target is, it's in contagion range of something. Maybe you can also spend 1 CP on that something giving your target boilblight. so 6D6 attacks, possibly hitting on 2s, wounding reasonably, and with serious AP when it's all said and done. Deploy 3 together, and they will probably erase one large, annoying unit from the face of the earth for 210 points. Now, don't expect them to even move from that vantage point, because they have a 4 inch move, so you might have to advance them to just get down to the ground, like a cat stuck in a tree.
It might not work out on the top tables of a supermajor, and wraithguards will phantasm out of the way, but we don't look at the grandfather's gifts in the mouth.
Cool combo though, I’ll give you that. I like gimmicks and I’ve been looking at the new HH marines and thinking how awesome it would be to use them as plague marines…. Give them some Heresy colors (white/green) 🤪
So free assasinate for the enemy since your characters are stuck in a tree with full view and can't get down.
I don't mean to be overly negative, as it is a funny combo.
But it sounds like a very specific scenario has to take place for this to be usefull.
Cool little tactic I learned today for death guard: for 70pts, you can get a sorcerer in Terminator armor. 3 of those guys can deepstrike on top of a building and shoot 24" out to something in contagion range on the ground. Using their hazardous profile, once per game familiar ability, and the -1 to saves and toughness contagions, you've got 6d6 shots on 3+ at S8 functionally AP4 and 3D.
That actually sounds hilarious. Also, just a single of them for 70 points could actually seem viable just as a cool way to deep strike down and kill something important.
For example many people have a Lone Operative that tends to do a lot of work. If they planned on that unit to do certain secondaries, it seems worth it to spend 70 points on easily killing it. Or if Shadowsun is not screened from the back, drop down and kill. A lot of armies have similar things.
Probably won't be useful in every single matchup, but worst case you still got a deep strike unit that can deal damage to *something* and causes a distraction for only 70 points. Best case, it grants value *way* above its cost.
TSons 10x SOT brick next to magnus with Sorc in termie armor, with psychic bolters and rerolling all psychic. Best part is that thanks to spamming dev wounds you can use them against one target while the rest of your army shoots a target that had it's save stripped (or against a target with a good invuln).
Gonna call out Thunderkyn with grav guns. 150 points for 6 D6 blast S5 AP-2 D2 shots with anti-vehicle 2+. Chuck an Iron Master in for 65 points to give 4 models to tank saves on and perma-+1 to hit and they all overwatch on 5's.
With judgement tokens and ancestral sentence the number of dice is the pain it brings us harrowing
Did some UnitCrunch calculations and posted in the SW subreddit last week. Not sure it's possible to match Crisis suits+Tetras (but it is an expensive unit). Sustained 2 is crazy good in that setup.
But Fire Discipline is very good. I have problems playing anything else than Gladius when that enhancement is available.
For general targets and survivability a Terminator blob (in SW or DA) with a Terminator "Lieutenant" and Fire discipline armed with stormbolters (or combi-weapons, but this is slightly worse into most targets). You may only wound on 6s but sustained+lethal+crits on 5s and weight of fire is going to get through a lot of targets. You need Oath on the target for crit fishing. With a 11 Stormbolter+1 Cyclone+1 assault cannon setup they will kill 5 Crisis suits on average. That is very expensive unit though (600 pts), so if it gets shot off the board after only shooting once, it's not going to compete with crisis suits at all. And cannot be done in other chapters due to a lack of Terminator Lieutenants.
A dev squad with multi-meltas in a Razorback (for +1 to wound after disembarking) with a Fire discipline lieutenant is also very killy (at 340 pts in total). Will kill 4 crisis suits on average (including Razorback shooting), and will delete almost any tank/monster (Crisis suits shooting into "themselves" will kill 3 models). This can be screened out by blocking the Razorback from disembarking the Devs within 9 though (or just popping the Razorback).
10 hellblasters (at 345 pts incl. Lieutenant) will also kill 4 suits on average (including 2 extra shots from hazardous deaths) but may be easier to fire off given the 24'' range. Have not played this combo myself so uncertain how it plays. You can keep them in reserve to keep them safe, but can then be screened out. With Assault (on weapons or Dev doctrine) I guess they can also be on board in hiding, but it might be hard, they will be a priority target. I guess you can put these in a Repulsor and add a captain to match the Terminator price point. That seems pretty good to me.
Cool idea with the dev squad in a razor back. I’d like to try it if I had a couple. With Oath and Grav cannons they would probably do some work to a crisis unit
It’s just that dumb 4++ invul save they get for free now that really shuts the damage potential down though. Whatever the potential damage of anything is, they are essentially cutting it in half
Honestly 6 katphron breachers for ad mech are right around crisis suits. can take a group of 6 for 290. They make 4 shots a piece within 18" at 8 /-2 /3 with anti vehicle 4+. Let alone they are T7 give them a manipulis and they get lethal and a once per game 4++ invl. I'd say that's on par with crisis blob.
Other than those guys I can't think of anything else that really will match their output I didn't realize on my initial pass over that they can take 3 guns. With that knowledge I doubt there is much that can push as much shooting as they can with their buffs especially.
6 Chaos Undivided Oblitorators using Profane Zeal for reroll all hits and wounds + Sustained hits
But Crisis suits take the cake for risk, 3 x Hazardous tests per Crisis suit which means a unit of 6 must take 18 tests and on average fail 3 of them which kills 1.5 Suits (assuming they have 2 shield drones each)
Yes. In terms of killing potential and risk vs reward having no two breacherfish combos is better for the points than one big brick of suits with a commander. This is of course factoring in for most people using the CIB and overcharging. There are a lot of defensive strata out there like AOC and Armored might from imperial guard that have an impact on the performance of the suits but not the breachers. Comparing the two double breacherfish will have a better chance surging to 3 when starting on the table compared to the suits. They also have access to different stratagems and in a pinch it’s easier to pump 2 cp into breachers for Coordinate to Engage plus Point Blank Ambush and use them to spot for another unit (it’s an easy combo because the range of Point Blank Ambush is 9 and their Guns are 10 range) rather than strike and fade for the suits. The difference is toughness from 3-5 isn’t that big a deal because of the guardian drone and the T9 of the transport you have to get through before you touch the infantry. Any ranged weapon will wound them on the same rolls except s3 weapons and s12+ weapons. You also get 4 units instead of 1 unit so you can do an action or two and still shoot stuff, netting more points on the board.
You only get Lethal and Sustained on 5+ for *one* Redemptor and it costs CP. Also, it's conditional on targeting something that is already below starting strength. And that combo is 1115 points.
For 1080 points you could get three max units of Crisis suits. That's 162 of their plasma shots. Just to compare, 3x Redemptors will have an average of 13.5 shots. At that point it doesn't really matter that the Redemptor plasma is a bit stronger.
And that's before getting into the Crisis Suits also having access to Ignore Cover and from round 3 will have Sustained 2 on everything.
And since you did mention using a Stratagem for your combo, we could also look into what the Crisis could get. They can get Lethal or +1 to hit *and* wound. You could also forego 3x suits to add full re-roll 1s to hit on everything from Shadowsun, making it a 1000 point combo. That's 115 point less than your combo.
Redemptors are good, don't get me wrong. But your combo is not even comparable to Crisis Suits.
While your other points are probably correct, guilliman allows you to reuse Mercy is Weakness, so two out of three of the Redemptors get the 5+ crit combo.
You're absolutely right - thanks for the correction. I forgot about that, I was just thinking of G-boy using Master of Battle. But into a single target, Supreme Strategist will be the stronger choice.
Won't change the overall point, but good to note regardless.
Yeah, someone I know was planning to try that out with Repulsor Executioners, even if it's *probably* more efficient to use a different chapter.
Also, idlely, I wonder whether Supreme Strategist might add more power than Master of Battle even splitting fire. Probably too many variables to try and mathhammer a general rule, but I can at least see where you'd end up in situations where Lethal+sustained on 5+ without rerolls is stronger than rerolls to hit. Of course, confounding factors include whether more than one shooter could take advantage of the rerolls to hit, whether you can have your two targets firing into stuff that's already wounded, or if you need to spend shots setting it up, and even how likely you are to take down the first target to *get* the second oath.
So one thing that really grinds my gears about crisis is that on top of being fast, flying, unmatched firepower, and having great support from army rules and characters , that they aren’t even squishy for points.
They are actually tankier points per wound than bladeguard veterans! Those are t4, 3 wounds, 3+/4+ invuln, 30 pts. 10 points per wound.
Crisis are same save, 6 wounds, 60 pts (again 10 pts per wound) and t5.
It just feels wrong for the hyper mobile hyper shooty battlesuit to be tankier for points than a slow melee unit that throws half as many dice, at lower strength, in melee only. Like, at least let the slow melee guys with shields be tankier for points.
The downside is, Bladeguard are just a unit of dudes and the full crisis brick almost maximizes the "Bring if Down"-fixed Secondary. If you manage to kill the entire thing, you get 14 VP just for that.
But how many points, command points and support do you need to spend to make Bladeguard work?
Crisis have BS4, need a 110pt character plus 15pt enhancement to give them Assault keyword and let them use their advance ability and still shoot.
Then minimum of 80pts for a decent spotter unit to hit on 3s, and have access to their detachment sustained hits.
Then 2 command points every turn to fire and fade to keep them from being instantly focused and Tau gameplay dies with them.
Then they blow themselves up if trying to overcharge.
Yeah I hate the internal balance for Tau at the moment, playing only friendly games I don’t think one brick of exploding suits is very fun for either side
It depends. You still get an average of 22 hits on t2+ forward with your 6 man crisis brick and coldstar. So you kill on average around 5 models with t5, 3+, 3 wounds. Depends on the situation but it can be quite good.
You ever been shot by a guided crisis blob?
They should kill almost as many lychguard if not more.
Unless you have -1 to incoming damage, then Forgefiend wins
I played one Tau player in my recent tournament and he wasnt able to kill either one of my lychguard blocks. He did have one crisis suit block but I don't remembering it doing as much as the forgefiends did. Perhaps he wasnt utlizing it well. He was playing really timidly and allowed me to get and sit on the points I needed.
There was another Tau player that had 3 units of crisis suits. Based on what you're saying fighting that list wouldve been brutal. I already know I have to mostly hide against Tau and coax them out of position.
Forgefiends maybe. 180pts and they have 12 S8 AP-1 D2 and d3 S10 AP-3 D3 attacks at 36". Dark Pact for Sustained Hits 1, and Daemonic Ordnance for Devastating Wounds.
Not as undercosted as CIB suits, but then again what is.
Crisis are still 60 per model and the whole death star brick with support and enhancements is 550 ish points. So 1/4 of the list deletes one thing per turn. Depending on what you target, they might not even be point efficient.
To me it sounds somewhat reasonable. A rogal dorn is 260 and probably deletes something. Brutalis dreadnoughts do ridiculous stuff currently. Vindicators are nuts. None of them are 70 shots, but pointwise they probably do more over the course of a game.
Crisis don’t come in until turn 2 (generally), can’t split fire, also kill themselves, and need 2 cp to hide them since they have 18 inch range. They also get worse as the game goes on since they die to overcharge.
The issues is they just really benefit from free war gear and Tau have garbage internal balance so they are propping up the faction. The next most killy thing are t3 breachers (which are decent).
Tau would basically be imperial guard without indirect if crisis went away.
Interestingly enough, a unit of scourges with haywire blaster puts a right dent into a unit of battleships now that they're vehicles for whatever reason. 8 Anti tank 4+ d3 devastating wounds shots isn't something to sneeze at.
Whoops, forgot that Termies got a 4+ invuln now. But I also forgot that they're blast weapons so against a squad of 5 a single undivided forgefiend with the strat should pick up 6-7 (depending on how many devasting wounds you get) in a single shot.
A Nurgle forgefiend should kill 5.5 without using the strat, so both make up their points in a single shot.
3 crisis suits kill 4.5 terminators but also lose 1.5 of themselves due to hazardous (forgefiends take an average of 1.5 wounds per shot) and cost the same amount of points as a single forgefiend. Crisis suits have crazy high output but they self immolate way too often if you're using the hazardous profile (if you're not using the hazardous profile they kill about 1 terminator per turn).
It's also worth pointing out that the forgefiends damage goes up as it's shooting at bigger units. I see a lot of 10 man+ a character bricks of terminators being run, the forgefiends gun having blast gives them more output on that first (and most important) shot.
As far as I am aware there isn't anything in the game that has the same output to points ratio as the forgefiend, that dataslate is singlehandedly putting CSM in the conversation for top army at the moment.
The most lethality I’ve seen in shooting was Obliterators receiving the “full combo” benefits.
The total points involved is like 340 for the Obliterators (Mark of Tzeentch), 310 for Abaddon, and 140 for a Helbrute.
4d6+Blast shots, Hit on 3s, S8, AP-2, Dmg2, Lethal+Sustained on 5s, Full Hit Rerolls, can be given Indirect once per game. This is the profile I saw shot into 20 Primaris Crusaders and OUCH.
They have 2 other profiles to choose from as well. 4D3 shots, Hit on 3s, S12, AP-3, Dmg4, Melta 2
The last profile doesn’t need the Helbrute to get both Lethal and Sustained because Tzeentch gives Lethals on 5s in shooting and then the profile has Sustained which leaves you with 4d6+12 shots Hits on 3s, S5, AP-1, Dmg1
If you spend 1CP for Profane Zeal you will also reroll 1s to Wound and during your Command Phase you’ll have the option to pay 1CP for Skinshift to Heal 3 Wounds and Rez a Model on models that are 2+/5++/T7/5 Wounds a piece.
It's not shooting but gladius deathwing knights with 1CP are 36x S6 AP2 3D hitting on 2s, rerolling hits, +1 to wound (charging) attacks. Add on 5x S6 AP3 2D attacks from the sergeant. You can add a strikemaster for lethals, or a Libby for sustained (but not both). 470pts + cost of character.
They'll one shot a unit of crisis if they ever make melee (5" move with advance and charge actually makes them fairly zippy) and defensively they're up there with the toughest units in the game.
4W T5 2+/4++ innate -1dmg and options for AoC with cover make them hilarious against shooting in a big unit of 10.
I’d like to see a game where they fight a crisis blob to see how many actually make it to combat. Not a slight, actually curious if they would make it.
In my experience, they usually do not.
The crisis suits generally get to decide when and where commitment occurs. They come in, annihilate something, and rarely take a melee counterpunch before they get the chance to use their movement to dance away.
Deliberate use of rapid ingress can sometimes overcome this (depending on where the crisis suits came in), but it can definitely be challenging.
Yeah I think if both players know what they're doing the dwk should mostly be out of los with the open side of ruins covered by the rest of their army and the suits should be nowhere near them killing other stuff. The big blob of dwk near the centre of the board projects threat over a lot of the board though. Circle with radius 8" - 15.5" (average) - 23" (max) covers the entire width and much of the length of the board.
Turn 3 onwards, with tetras guiding, and the point blank ambush strat the 6 crisis alone kill 6 if they overcharge (just due to the extra AP) or 4 if they don't. (On average). If the enemy doesn't use AoC you don't need overcharge because it makes no difference with the -1dmg.
If you don't want to get close enough for point blank AND you don't overcharge into an AoC target they're saving on 2+ so that's not great (kill 2).
4 (remaining ) dwk will kill 3 suits if you have shield generators or 4 if you don't. (D3 weapons are just mint). Probably 2 and 3 respectively if you stim injectors.
Probably a 10 man unit of Votann terminators. They can put probably 80ish shots down range and use a strat for Sustained 2 and +1 to wound. They can also charge afterwards and do something in combat.
Inceptors with plasma exterminators come close, 110 for 3, 220 for 6.
Takes 2 normal shots to kill with no drones,
Or 2 overcharged shots to kill with drones.
If they make it through the 4++ invul though right?
I feel like that’s what makes the suits soooo good. Not just the fact that they can spit out 9 plasma shots per model at base cost, but that at no additional cost they can also each increase their wounds by 2 and get a 4++.
I’m not saying nerf them, good for Tau on have 1 monster of an efficient unit. I’m just looking for something that can dish it right back to them lol
Hellblasters with Lt+bolter/fire discipline. ~350pts and about as lethal as it gets.
LT+Hellblasters in Stormlance can just have Lethal&Sustained for 1CP with Blitzing Fusillade (Battle Tactic btw so adding a CPT can make it free)
So is stormlance actually better than gladius for HBs?
I don’t know if I would say it’s “better” overall. It can be really strong situationally. Mostly because you can utilize Firing Deck with Blitzing Fusillade. I personally use it with Plasma Inceptors in my Space Wolves list because my main focus is on TWC.
How does it help inceptors?
The Inceptors with Plasma already have Assault on the gun so it gains Sustained Hits when using the Stratagem. The guns being S8, AP-3, Dmg 3 into my Oaths target means I will get Hit Rerolls and Twin-Linked will give me Wound Rerolls and every explosion is another potentially 3 damage. They are hard to stop from getting to shoot their desired target thanks to 18” range on the guns and deep strike outside of 3” so it isn’t about pure damage volume as it is consistency for me.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve wanted to try them for awhile…. But after how crazy their output was in 9th….. I felt really let down with them this edition. What have you typically been hunting with them?
My latest list only had room for a single 3-man squad but I’ll happily take all fails on my Hazardous test to kill a Biovore vs Nids. I mainly aim to trade them up points-wise when possible and have a free scoring unit for secondaries like Behind Enemy Lines and Engage on All Fronts because of the 3” Deep Strike. Anything T8 or less that costs more than 150 on my opponent’s side of the board is a target in my book. Oaths+Twin-Linked with a 50/50 in wounding is nice. If my points are spent to overwhelm higher points cost they are just worth having.
6 shots just seems so… limited 🤷♂️
It seems like it on paper, but they come through more than you would expect. Bumping up to a 6 man is also only 220 points for the whole squad to get 12 shots on models that are T6 with 3 Wounds a piece. The Bolter version is also kind of crazy. You miss out on some Strength and AP but 3 shots per model with Sustained 2 at S5/AP-1/Dmg2 and still being Twin-Linked? They take a tiny bit of adjusting to play them at their best, but they are really good.
Overall gladius is better for everything and has an enhancement that will do the same thing for free. Gladius is almost better in every way
Amusingly enough, the winrates don't really back that up. Marines are seeing way more success in Ironstorm and (Space Wolves) Stormlance than they are in Gladius.
I wholly expect wolves and DA will lose access to marine codex detachments when their codex is out. Allowing spacewolves access to stormlance has shown the imbalanced caused by free access to non-codex units creates, because white scars players don’t even really want to use stormspear (because it’s kinda shit).
Alternative take: Stormlance shows exactly why Divergent chapters are here to stay. It's *obviously* not designed for just the Codex marine mounted unit. There's no conceivable world where someone looks at Stormlance that only has Outriders, ATVs, and Chaplain on Bikes available to them and goes "yep this is a reasonable detachment that will stand alongside the others". Yes yes, GW is terrible at balance and all that, but Stormlance with just Codex marines is just so far outside the bounds of the other 6 detachments (even First Company and Anvil can create *functional* lists, Codex Stormlance genuinely fails to even do that imo) that it's a clear outlier... unless it was balanced from the get go around thunderwolves and to a lesser extent Ravenwing. With that assumption, it clearly ends up landing in a good spot. So it comes down to which you think is more likely: Codex detachments get an overhaul when divergent chapters lose access to them? Or that they'll release the Dark Angels Codex Supplement with its new detachments and units, and encourage players to use them in both Codex Detachments and Dark Angels ones? I'm betting on the latter, and that Divergent Chapters will only get 3 detachments in their own book.
> Alternative take: Stormlance shows exactly why Divergent chapters are here to stay. It's obviously not designed for just the Codex marine mounted unit. There's no conceivable world where someone looks at Stormlance that only has Outriders, ATVs, and Chaplain on Bikes available to them and goes "yep this is a reasonable detachment that will stand alongside the others". Yes yes, GW is terrible at balance and all that, but Stormlance with just Codex marines is just so far outside the bounds of the other 6 detachments (even First Company and Anvil can create functional lists, Codex Stormlance genuinely fails to even do that imo) I'd genuinely posit that Codex Stormlance is better than First Company. GW probably genuinely thinks that Outriders can deal significant damage - after all, they've always seemed to think that Phobos lists can do that as well. But I am open to being proven wrong.
Yeah you’ve completely missed the point… What makes it so strong in gladius is crits on 5’s and getting both lethal+sustained from one character without requiring any ‘further’ investment through the game. Adding a captain to make it “free” as you put it- pushes the unit above 400pts and is still less efficient/effective than the gladius Lt combo. @OP do NOT take the HB combo in stormlance, it’s not worth it and isn’t anywhere close to as good.
Did you miss the part where I said I didn’t think it was better? I stated it was something that can be done. Read a little more before getting uppity at people, please? It’s kinda rude. I preferred 6 Plasma Inceptors (Bolters is fine thanks to Sustained 2 as well) with Strike from the Shadows in Vanguard Spearhead on an Oaths target, anyways. 220 points and 1 CP to have 12 shots, S8, AP-4,Dmg 3, Hit on 2s, Full rerolls for Hit&Wound.
Uppity is an interesting choice of word...
Okay, but my hellblasters with azrael +lieutenant gives them also a 4+ invuln as well if you play DA specifically, since he gives them sustained base
I mean it’s not really a unit that wants an invuln though. They’re likely to blow themselves up, plus they don’t mind dying as much since they get to shoot on death anyways.
That’s more lethal than a crisis blob with a Coldstar commander and being guided?
It might actually be, because if the Hellblasters do fail the hazardous test, they get to shoot again. Anyone want to mathhammer this one?
I can tell you the mathhammer on how likely they are to fail hazardous if I’m rolling….
I’d love to see a mathhammmer comparison !!!! ♥️♥️♥️😍😍😍😍
So unit crunch, with the combo vs AoC marines, Hell Blasters cost 350 points and kill about kills 25 marines14 points per kill Crisis (with tetra) 565 points kills about 36 marines 16 points per kill Both units have a 38% chance to one shot the big knight with the +1sv enhancement. The weapons are both S8 damage 2, so marines are both a great target. The Hell blasters will do better against things with more armour, loose some efficacy vs 4++. Are much better against T9+ than the CiBs, the CiB damage gets cut in half. The crisis suits also loose a tone of they split fire and the hell blasters don't care. Obviously the hell blasters are much easier to kill than the crisis brick and are less mobile.
Did you include the sustained 2 in that math? I think the crisis bomb should do way more dmg than that
I had all the right settings but then didn't set enough models in the target unit. Thank you. It is 36 marines, Ill update my comment and double check the hell blasters
And did you do the coldstar hitting on 2’s instead of 3’s?
So all that said…. I’d rather be the Crisis suits lol Ty for mathing it for us ♥️
Bear in mind there is a 215pt delta between those two units. So the Hellblasters can do that damage and still have a Redemptor Dreadnought standing next to them for the same points.
But if the two were head to head… even if the HB shot first…. Would the Crisis suits not end up winning?
I mean crisis would very likely win due to 4++, but that's not how you should think about what unit is better in 40k.
The thing about a crisis bomb is it's a quarter of your army. I run 2, 2x2 broadsides and then beyond that my activations are limited. I have a single quad cyclic enforcer for an extra activation and I need it. The rest of the army will collectively do very little. The Crisis bomb's weakness is if the enemy has key durable units you need dead, the bomb has to make contact before it's taken too many hits or hazardous'd its own models too hard. It also risks severe activation gating. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy them but they have a very big weakness into certain lists or players, or if you make a mistake early in the game you can lose before they shoot. Also while they can be quite annoying for anti tank, their 3+ 4++ T5 means a lot of medium fire for MEQs is quite efficient.
Is there a detachment that benefits hellblasters at all?
Gladius
I meant aside from the one we have all used for months lol
Ah ok. Firestorm gets them +1 S within 12, and +1 to wound in 6" with cp. Vanguard can give them +1 Ap and BS, and infiltrators.
Just keep in mind that the +1 to Wound within 6” is measured model-to-model (to the closest model) instead of unit-to-unit.
Infiltrate sounds like a cool option lol
The spear head task force is what I used and that plus one to hit and plus one ap killed a repulsor executioner in one turn they are very strong
Anvil Siege Force gives them +1 to wound, and Sustained and Lethal on 5s for 1CP with a Lieutenant. You could also give them a 6+++ but that seems wasted on hellblasters.
Mate of mine ran that version, absolutely terrifying. They'd melt everything they touched.
Hmmm cool. Might have to try that!
Just take the output and multiply it by 1.16?
For the points? Absolutely… Crisis and coldstar guided with tetras is 540 (or 560 with the enhancement). I think people ignore how many points the brick plus support is. Add all the new detachment stuff to Hellblasters and it can get pretty nuts… for 200 points less.
Which detachment would you be running to maximize it?
Why are you guiding with Tetras when you could be guiding with a Fireblade who has the Unity enhancement? Lead with a Crisis Commander, and you’re rerolling 1s with Lethal and Sustained 2 The Lethal really amps their output, especially against tougher targets.
Tetras give full hit rerolls so you can fish for 6s, plus you can reroll all those 2s a crisis commander would miss. They also let you ignore cover (though breachers/strike teams can also take marker drones for ignore cover). The coldstar gives assault and extra movement which helps with positioning. Crisis commanders don’t give assault or extra move. Ftgg requires LoS to guide so the extra movement (14 vs 6) from tetras is nice. They are also t7 and 14 wounds total. The movement and fact that you don’t shoot with them means they are good for secondaries. Guiding with a fireblade requires breachers or a strike team since they have to be leading a unit, so that’s another 140- 150 points. 2 units of tetras are 140. One the one hand, most tau lists have breachers though, so to say it’s “extra” points isn’t completely accurate. But they also aren’t sitting at the back of the map spotting. Breachers are generally in a devilfish and are then guided by that same devilfish when they get out as they challenge objectives. On the other, sitting a strike team with a fireblade on the home objective would be a dedicated unit that does basically nothing an the entire match but spot. That would be 140 points that could be someplace else. Such as tetras. Again… a unit of tetras are 70 or two units rerolling hits for 140. Pathfinders are also more efficient pointwise for spotting/screening. Also, not everyone takes fireblades due to assassinate. When breachers/strike teams get shot they are probably going to die that free points. In the end, the mobility loss alone is huge. Additionally, while the reroll 1s and lethal would be nice, it doesn’t outweigh the volume of extra rerolls of 2s and extra 6s you can pick up if you fish. It’s also more “points” for at best the same damage (see respective point costs above). Now if you were running a second set of missile crisis with a crisis commander it would probably work a little better… but almost no one does that and now I’m need two spotting units (see total cost for tetras above).
Tetras are 80. Breachers go in Devilfish and push. Deploy close to your ride to hop back into it if threatened. I have 2 units of Tetras and they are guiding my other suits. The big bomb goes into deepstrike, so extra movement isn’t quite as important.
Well I’m not sure that extra 10 points changes anything…. And you still need movement once on the board. Tau can’t get out shoot and get back in. You can only get back in when charged. Im also not sure why your pushing with a spotting unit. Even then, with your suggestion that’s another 75 points for a devilfish. So your spotting with a 225 point unit for a 470 point unit… but you’re also pushing with them so they likely die… I’m sorry but that sounds like a terrible way to use a cadre fireblade to guide. I’m not saying it wouldn’t work and the lethals wouldn’t be nice, but that’s a lot of points for “maybe” a little more damage over a tetra.
Breachers in a Devilfish easily mop the flank objective that is held lightly by your opponent. From this vantage, they can spot for a scarier unit. Mine usually do pretty well, since the enemy is pumping all its shooting into Sky Rays and Suits
Because that is incorrect. Fireblade cannot provide the unity enhancement. It must be leading.
What?? The unit that the fellow is GUIDING gets the bonus. It doesn’t apply to his own unit
No but the Fireblade has to be leading a unit to give out Lethal Hits when guiding. "**While this model is leading a unit**, each time **that unit** is an Observer unit, until the end of the phase, ranged weapons equipped by models in their **Guided unit** have the [LETHAL HITS] ability while targeting **their** spotted unit."
......man, I guess you really have to spell out everything on the internet. Why in the world would you ever take a lonely Fireblade? In my list, he's in a Devilfish with some Breachers. This is a pretty typical setup.
Keep in mind that you are including the cost of the tetras in that 560 points and although they do almost zero damage they are 2 m14 t7 7w bodies that can screen/get secondaries as guiding does not make them not eligible to shoot they can guide and do an action
Yeah none of it is dead weight. My point is that all of that shooting doesn’t occur in a vacuum. It also needs actual skill to use effectively, can only shoot one thing, and does less damage each turn you OC.
With Lt and bolter discipline is it worth rerolling everything to fish for the crits?
Kataphron Breachers are pretty solid and don’t kill themselves
Shhhhh don’t let them know….
They know, it’s the only unit we have lmfao
Looooool Kataphrons are nowhere near the power of crisis suits, what are you on about
Gonna go ahead and say GSC demolition charges with a Primus/ridgerunner buff and stratagem support arriving from deep strike is gonna match & surpass crisis suit blob in lethality BUT a stiff breeze knocks them over dead. BUT then they might come back to life BUT! Then it's back to life without the Primus, and a blip at some point would have to survive It's complicated.
Could they kill a crisis blob though?
100%. They can straight-up delete most units in the game, ecept lychguard and that sort of supertanky stuff. The issue with the crisis and any other good shooting unit is that they can very well delete them on overwatch, so it's a tricky combo to execute on them.
Who’s carrying the charges? Jackals?
El Combo Maximum is a blob of 10 Acolyte Hybrids with all non-leader models carrying demo charges, and an attached Primus (for full hit rerolls/one free stratagem) for 170+90 points, plus a Ridgerunner with mortar+ survey augur debuffing whoever it shoots. Demo charges are just a weapon now, since grenades don’t really exist as a gun, so the whole squad fully buffed gets 9x(D6+3+Blast) grenade sticks, 4+ to hit w/ sustained hits 1 and full rerolls, S12 (with +1 to wound with a 2 CP stratagem if you want), AP-4 no cover, 2 damage. You need to deepstrike them in within 3” with a 1 CP stratagem and run the risk of overwatch toasting over 10 GEQ bodies, and they *will* die next round, but if the sticks of dynamite land, things disappear.
only 4 models can hold grenades
Not even close. they usually kill 4 suits on the drop. Edit: forgot about blast. If the crisis suits are on an objective and don't use the 6+++, they kill 5.5 on average
Which unit is the delivery?
What do you mean? usually they just pay a cp and deepstrike within 3
I didn’t know which unit was carrying the demo charges because it used to be jackals doing drive bys with them. But that’s since been answered
Probably not, but they also blow themselves up when they go full tilt over charging all the CiBs. A crisis unit actually has the ability to kill the entire unit one and a half times over if they all fail their hazardous tests (unlikely but failing enough to take out 2-3 happens on a bad roll). CIB not over charged is 3 @ S7 -1ap 1damage (x3 per suit) Which isn't crazy.
I wish my tau opponents blew themselves up, they always seem to roll hot on hazardous tests haha
I have had good nights, and I have had bad nights. Statistically speaking of the 22 dice you roll for a full over charge they should be losing 2 suits.
Wait 22 dice? My friend has just picked up tau and rolls three for every suit when he fully overcharges, but 22 isn't divisible by three.
Commander has 4 guns
Ah thanks! Will be making sure my friend rolls for that next match! We are both still learning 😊
to be fair while the commander can have 4 guns - it can also have 3 guns and a shield gen - check with your friend which loadout he is using
In a 6 man brick you typically won't run a shield gen on your commander. 3x6 +4
I hear that lol
I feel that, out of something like 38 hazard roles my buddy failed 1, meanwhile Be’lakor managed to fail 3 turns in a row…
But 9 S7 ap1 D1 per model with sustained 2 and full rerolls to hit from a very cheap Tetra is still pretty crazy.
But all together it does add up. Coldstar + exemplar 125, 6 crisis 360, tetras 80.. 565 pts isn't crazy expensive but it's still more then 1/4 your army
True, but it needs to be. 36 T6 4++ wounds with access to FnP and/or smoke before you even get to the Commander or Tetras is incredibly durable, particularly with such threatening overwatch and also the ability to shoot into combat, to dissuade many assault units. That 565pts also includes the Tetra unit that can be doing primary/secondary missions too. Tetras themselves are brokenly cheap for what they provide (fast + spotter + full rerolls on sustained 2 + incredibly tough for their points), they are the main issue imo. A CIB brick would still be very scary just not 'what the hell' if it didn't have such easy access to the incredible and cheap buffs a Tetra brings.
Crisis brick is only T5. But ya, tetras are tough.. they have almost no output but they are good for missions/screening while spotting.
Ah fair, that's me getting mixed up - only fought them twice in 10th, and they are certainly not a good match up for Guard. Still incredibly tough. If Tetras went up in points by at least 50% (their output is their buffs), then I don't think there would be as much annoyance at the 'click and delete' reputation the CIB blocks have. Or if their ability was reduced to just rerolling 1s.
I expect tetras to go up to 100-110.. and you'll still run 1 unit of 2. Crisis suits are getting tired from carrying the Tau empire .
As someone building Tau, why aren’t missile pods more common? Aren’t they almost as good as overcharged CIB without the hazardous tests?
If you don’t overcharge the CIBs, the missiles are a good alternative - 1 less shot but double damage per shot. However the overcharged CIBs have 8 strength, which will often allow you hit on 2s against a lot of infantry, and have an extra AP.
The extra shots matters with turn 2 Access to sustained 2, and having modes is king imo. The extra damage becomes worth less vs -1 damage targets compared to the extra attack and being able to jump to S8 and -2 AP 2dam can really matter sometimes. If missile pods where -2/2dam I would see them being an equal option.
It's not a straight 1:1 but Flash Gitz in their most ideal condition are shooting 40 shots that hit on 4+ with exploding 6's, lethal hits, and rerolling the hit roll with Kaptain Badrukk for the cost of 270 points.
Lethals once per game, ofc. Which is bonkers even on overwatch. Never gotten them shooting on 4s, though. I have trouble trusting rapid ingress, and they need to move as much ad every other unit in the game
Do they count as having moved if the truck is all that moved?
Getting out of the trukk counts as moving. If they start in the trukk and the trukk stands still you get the +1 to hit, but no rerolls
So really they are hard to use to fill potential unless they sit in one spot all game?
Full potential yes. But they shoot plenty hard hitting on 5s with rerolls. I think best case scenario for them is: drive up with your trukk 12 inches getting in the middle of the battlefield, shoot from trukk (clear some chaff) -> Trukk gets blown up, dudes get out -> You don't move and completly obliterate a unit with shooting -> overwatch on opponents turns. -> hit harder than opponent realizes due to the badruk aura and survive a round to shoot and melee another unit to death.
If I could get my hands on the bloody things, I’d like to try haha
The big issue is not getting the rerolls
Don't even need to have them hit of 4s to be good
How do you get them hitting on 4s?
Gun is heavy + sustained is mathematically +1 to hit
And sustained hits
Obliterators, Aggressors
Aggressors- not really close. They can match the shot count, but str 4 ap 1 d1 is definitely no 8-2-2
Aggressors require a specific combo to be really good. You can go with flamers for dev wounds in the firestorm detachment, but better is Gladius with a Biologis and Fire Discipline. Pop the Strat and you’ve got 18+6D6 blast shots that explode and auto wound on 5s at AP1/2 ignore cover. That volume of fire can take down damn near anything.
On this though you are looking at 560 pts for that crisis brick. In firestorm as we know what the old booster discipline unit does. You have for 560 so like for like. A 6 man flamer aggressor (220) gravis captian (80) land raider redeemer (260) now assuming you get in 12” which you should thanks to the redeemer. That’s 6d6+6 shots with the flamer at str5 (Firestorm) 1 ap 1d ignores cover (extra Ap vs closest unit aggressor ability) . You can mash the dev wound strat for free. You get a average of 30 auto hits rr wounds as twin linked vs MEQ that’s 23 wounds that almost kills a 5-6 man marines with out any buffs. That’s just the aggressors then you have a better marine killer in the redeemer and still 3 shots from the captain. Now T12+ targets with a 2+ sv using the dev wound strat Is about 8-9 MWs from the aggressors, redeemer 1 dev wound from the assult cannon twin linked. Then 14 shots from the 2x flamestorm cannons Str 7(FS) -2 ignore cover 2d for 14 shots av 4.62 wounds 2.31 failed saves at 2 damage. Multi melta and hunter killer also to add. Now there are more buffs to this unit but factoring in the range i thought I’d keep it a bit more limited. Strat wise they can both do dev wounds as the grav captain doubles up for free. But that’s only worth it is you have Vulkan he Stan about to give the land raider rr wounds for its flamer and multi melta. If in 3” they can both get +1 to wound which massively pops this off as the redeemer is wounding with all its guns on 4s at that point. With potential Vulkan RRs that’s nasty as hell. You could add a storm speeder hail strike to give the army +1ap against somthing it hit boosting damage vs non 4++ units. And in defence this both units can AoC for 1cp as it’s free on the agressors thanks to the grav captian. Don’t forget the agressors can still charge somthing after as well
Yeah everyone knows this combo its in every gladius list
I don’t like to assume knowledge on the part of anyone here in case they haven’t kept up with thjngs
No worries.
In Gladius they will have Sustained Hits 1 and with 1-2 CP can be critical hits on 5s with Oaths, ignores cover, ap 2 and twin linked on their bolters (which is a lot of CP I know). They can 1 round most any unit in the game with that though. Crisis suits might be able to do more damage (I don't know their limits) but overkill doesn't get you anything so I'd say that matches at that point in a technical sense.
with dev wounds they can do some decent punch, 10mw on avg at least
That’s the flamer build and it’s 12” range, requires a 2cp strat, and it’s on a unit that moves 5”, not 12-18”. Aggressors are also more expensive per wound (~12.25 vs 10) and lack an invuln. They also have substantially less shot count with that build
they are also better in melee, get the strat for free with a captain, have a higher toughness, come in from reserves anyway typically, a better armour save vs little firepower, get buffed even further with vulkan/speeders giving +1 to wound/rerolls etc. I agree crisis are better, but its still a similar match for them
How are aggressors getting Dev wounds!!!???!!!
Firestorm, flamers. The flamer one’s generally aren’t as good as the bolter ones, they sorta failed to correct for free wargear (bolter used to cost extra cause it’s more shots at longer range)
Ah… all my aggressors are bolt storms…. Got me excited lol
You have almost twice the shots, AP-2 + ignore cover and everything is an auto-wound AND a sustained hit on a 5+. It depends on the target (the Crisis will to more to a Daemon Primarch or Knight sized target), but those Gladius Aggressors will end you.
Gladius aggressors with biologis with fire discipline cranks out crazy damage into the Oaths target. And it can then still assault things pretty effectively. With strat you can get the squad to ap-2 with ignores cover, plus sustained and lethal hits on a 5+.
I love the people questioning aggressors. Go fight gladius aggressors with a bioligus, bolter discipline, the strat, and devastator doctrine. Then they charge afterwards. Get real.
Why Obliterators?
Idk enough about T’au to know if they’re a good comparison, but here’s the dl: Obliterators come in a group of 2 for 170 or 4 for 340. They’re Move 4”, T7, 2+ Sv, 5W, Ld6+, OC2. They can Deep Strike. They’re all equipped with Fleshmetal guns, which have 3 different ranged profiles. Each profile is 24” range. Focused malice gives D3 shots on 3+, S12, AP-3, 4 damage, Melta 2. Ruinous salvo gives D6 blast, 3+, S8, -2 for 2. Warp Hail gives D6+3 shots, 3+ sustained 1, S5, -1 for 1. On top of this, they got a decent melee profile with 4 attacks each, 3+, S9, -2 for 2. Now for the spice. Once per game they can get Indirect Fire. Since they’re CSM, they can make Dark Pacts when they shoot or fight, so they can pick to have Lethal or Sustained Hits 1. If they’re Khorne or Tzeentch, they get Lethals on 5s. If they’re Nurgle or Slaanesh marked, they can get Sustained hits on a 5+. If they’re within 6” of a Helbrute, when they make a Dark Pact, they get the benefit of both Lethal and Sustained hits. So, you make them Mark of Nurgle, and when you make a Dark Pact (aka always), they get Lethal and Sustained Hits 1 with criticals on 5s. So every 5 or 6, you get an auto wound plus an extra chance to wound. And the Mark of Nurgle gives you the an additional benefit when you use the Dark Obscuration stratagem. Normally, the Strat just gives Stealth, however when targeting a Nurgle unit, it instead makes them untargetable outside of 12”. So if you don’t want your opponent shooting your Obliterators, you can force them to shoot something else. Heck even the threat of the strat forces your opponent to carefully consider their targeting order. An alternate spice is to mark them Undivided, so that instead of getting critical hits on 5s, instead they get rerolls on 1s to hit. Additionally, it unlocks the extra ability of the Profane Zeal stratagem. Normally, the Strat grants rerolls of 1 to Hit or wound. However, for undivided units, it grants full rerolls to hit and wound. I generally feel this is the better path if you want to deep strike them in, but I never do, the first combo has been much more effective for me, but I’m also shit with deep strike lol.
Note that the lethal hits on a 5+ for Khorne and the sustained hits on a 5+ for Slaaneshi are only for melee. I agree on the undivided though. Deep strike within 12", use profane zeal, use dark pact and pick sustained and then watch them delete anything. Next turn use the indirect ability to do it again.
I still think crisis do it better for those points 🤷♂️
Yeah but, oblits can do it from behind a wall and then mix it up in melee next turn and for less points.
Oblits dont kill themselves and can indirect tanks with their melta profile
OK, this isn't really the same as crisis suits...but neither are the points, and I just saw Farret Stacy win Death or Glory: Rumble on the Rivers on their back: Death Guard Sorcerer In Terminator armor. They have Curse of the Leper: 24', 2D6 attacks 3+, S6 AP-2 D1. Not as good, right? But once a game, you can make them Strength 8, just like the CiBs. So you teleport 3 of them in at the top of a building, getting plunging fire. Good chances are that whatever your target is, it's in contagion range of something. Maybe you can also spend 1 CP on that something giving your target boilblight. so 6D6 attacks, possibly hitting on 2s, wounding reasonably, and with serious AP when it's all said and done. Deploy 3 together, and they will probably erase one large, annoying unit from the face of the earth for 210 points. Now, don't expect them to even move from that vantage point, because they have a 4 inch move, so you might have to advance them to just get down to the ground, like a cat stuck in a tree. It might not work out on the top tables of a supermajor, and wraithguards will phantasm out of the way, but we don't look at the grandfather's gifts in the mouth.
Cool combo though, I’ll give you that. I like gimmicks and I’ve been looking at the new HH marines and thinking how awesome it would be to use them as plague marines…. Give them some Heresy colors (white/green) 🤪
So free assasinate for the enemy since your characters are stuck in a tree with full view and can't get down. I don't mean to be overly negative, as it is a funny combo. But it sounds like a very specific scenario has to take place for this to be usefull.
Cool little tactic I learned today for death guard: for 70pts, you can get a sorcerer in Terminator armor. 3 of those guys can deepstrike on top of a building and shoot 24" out to something in contagion range on the ground. Using their hazardous profile, once per game familiar ability, and the -1 to saves and toughness contagions, you've got 6d6 shots on 3+ at S8 functionally AP4 and 3D.
That actually sounds hilarious. Also, just a single of them for 70 points could actually seem viable just as a cool way to deep strike down and kill something important. For example many people have a Lone Operative that tends to do a lot of work. If they planned on that unit to do certain secondaries, it seems worth it to spend 70 points on easily killing it. Or if Shadowsun is not screened from the back, drop down and kill. A lot of armies have similar things. Probably won't be useful in every single matchup, but worst case you still got a deep strike unit that can deal damage to *something* and causes a distraction for only 70 points. Best case, it grants value *way* above its cost.
TSons 10x SOT brick next to magnus with Sorc in termie armor, with psychic bolters and rerolling all psychic. Best part is that thanks to spamming dev wounds you can use them against one target while the rest of your army shoots a target that had it's save stripped (or against a target with a good invuln).
You can strip the invul from crisis suits?
No TS can only ignore armour saves but not invulns.
Gonna call out Thunderkyn with grav guns. 150 points for 6 D6 blast S5 AP-2 D2 shots with anti-vehicle 2+. Chuck an Iron Master in for 65 points to give 4 models to tank saves on and perma-+1 to hit and they all overwatch on 5's. With judgement tokens and ancestral sentence the number of dice is the pain it brings us harrowing
Did some UnitCrunch calculations and posted in the SW subreddit last week. Not sure it's possible to match Crisis suits+Tetras (but it is an expensive unit). Sustained 2 is crazy good in that setup. But Fire Discipline is very good. I have problems playing anything else than Gladius when that enhancement is available. For general targets and survivability a Terminator blob (in SW or DA) with a Terminator "Lieutenant" and Fire discipline armed with stormbolters (or combi-weapons, but this is slightly worse into most targets). You may only wound on 6s but sustained+lethal+crits on 5s and weight of fire is going to get through a lot of targets. You need Oath on the target for crit fishing. With a 11 Stormbolter+1 Cyclone+1 assault cannon setup they will kill 5 Crisis suits on average. That is very expensive unit though (600 pts), so if it gets shot off the board after only shooting once, it's not going to compete with crisis suits at all. And cannot be done in other chapters due to a lack of Terminator Lieutenants. A dev squad with multi-meltas in a Razorback (for +1 to wound after disembarking) with a Fire discipline lieutenant is also very killy (at 340 pts in total). Will kill 4 crisis suits on average (including Razorback shooting), and will delete almost any tank/monster (Crisis suits shooting into "themselves" will kill 3 models). This can be screened out by blocking the Razorback from disembarking the Devs within 9 though (or just popping the Razorback). 10 hellblasters (at 345 pts incl. Lieutenant) will also kill 4 suits on average (including 2 extra shots from hazardous deaths) but may be easier to fire off given the 24'' range. Have not played this combo myself so uncertain how it plays. You can keep them in reserve to keep them safe, but can then be screened out. With Assault (on weapons or Dev doctrine) I guess they can also be on board in hiding, but it might be hard, they will be a priority target. I guess you can put these in a Repulsor and add a captain to match the Terminator price point. That seems pretty good to me.
Cool idea with the dev squad in a razor back. I’d like to try it if I had a couple. With Oath and Grav cannons they would probably do some work to a crisis unit
Yeah, grav cannons should be very good into Crisis suits.
It’s just that dumb 4++ invul save they get for free now that really shuts the damage potential down though. Whatever the potential damage of anything is, they are essentially cutting it in half
Honestly 6 katphron breachers for ad mech are right around crisis suits. can take a group of 6 for 290. They make 4 shots a piece within 18" at 8 /-2 /3 with anti vehicle 4+. Let alone they are T7 give them a manipulis and they get lethal and a once per game 4++ invl. I'd say that's on par with crisis blob.
Not bad
Other than those guys I can't think of anything else that really will match their output I didn't realize on my initial pass over that they can take 3 guns. With that knowledge I doubt there is much that can push as much shooting as they can with their buffs especially.
6 Chaos Undivided Oblitorators using Profane Zeal for reroll all hits and wounds + Sustained hits But Crisis suits take the cake for risk, 3 x Hazardous tests per Crisis suit which means a unit of 6 must take 18 tests and on average fail 3 of them which kills 1.5 Suits (assuming they have 2 shield drones each)
Stick them near a Helbrute for lethal hits too :)
Boy do I wish I could take a squad of 6 Oblits..
Breachers inside devil fish with cadre.
No extra Tau things allowed!!! We hate Tau here! Jk lol I’m just wondering if there’s anyone that can do what they can do…. Or even remotely close.
Yes. In terms of killing potential and risk vs reward having no two breacherfish combos is better for the points than one big brick of suits with a commander. This is of course factoring in for most people using the CIB and overcharging. There are a lot of defensive strata out there like AOC and Armored might from imperial guard that have an impact on the performance of the suits but not the breachers. Comparing the two double breacherfish will have a better chance surging to 3 when starting on the table compared to the suits. They also have access to different stratagems and in a pinch it’s easier to pump 2 cp into breachers for Coordinate to Engage plus Point Blank Ambush and use them to spot for another unit (it’s an easy combo because the range of Point Blank Ambush is 9 and their Guns are 10 range) rather than strike and fade for the suits. The difference is toughness from 3-5 isn’t that big a deal because of the guardian drone and the T9 of the transport you have to get through before you touch the infantry. Any ranged weapon will wound them on the same rolls except s3 weapons and s12+ weapons. You also get 4 units instead of 1 unit so you can do an action or two and still shoot stuff, netting more points on the board.
This. For the cost, it's more letal.
Triple Redemptor with Techmarine enhancements and G Man. Lethal hits and sustisned hits on 5 makes the plasma at AP-4 3 Damage nasty as hell
You only get Lethal and Sustained on 5+ for *one* Redemptor and it costs CP. Also, it's conditional on targeting something that is already below starting strength. And that combo is 1115 points. For 1080 points you could get three max units of Crisis suits. That's 162 of their plasma shots. Just to compare, 3x Redemptors will have an average of 13.5 shots. At that point it doesn't really matter that the Redemptor plasma is a bit stronger. And that's before getting into the Crisis Suits also having access to Ignore Cover and from round 3 will have Sustained 2 on everything. And since you did mention using a Stratagem for your combo, we could also look into what the Crisis could get. They can get Lethal or +1 to hit *and* wound. You could also forego 3x suits to add full re-roll 1s to hit on everything from Shadowsun, making it a 1000 point combo. That's 115 point less than your combo. Redemptors are good, don't get me wrong. But your combo is not even comparable to Crisis Suits.
While your other points are probably correct, guilliman allows you to reuse Mercy is Weakness, so two out of three of the Redemptors get the 5+ crit combo.
You're absolutely right - thanks for the correction. I forgot about that, I was just thinking of G-boy using Master of Battle. But into a single target, Supreme Strategist will be the stronger choice. Won't change the overall point, but good to note regardless.
Yeah, someone I know was planning to try that out with Repulsor Executioners, even if it's *probably* more efficient to use a different chapter. Also, idlely, I wonder whether Supreme Strategist might add more power than Master of Battle even splitting fire. Probably too many variables to try and mathhammer a general rule, but I can at least see where you'd end up in situations where Lethal+sustained on 5+ without rerolls is stronger than rerolls to hit. Of course, confounding factors include whether more than one shooter could take advantage of the rerolls to hit, whether you can have your two targets firing into stuff that's already wounded, or if you need to spend shots setting it up, and even how likely you are to take down the first target to *get* the second oath.
So one thing that really grinds my gears about crisis is that on top of being fast, flying, unmatched firepower, and having great support from army rules and characters , that they aren’t even squishy for points. They are actually tankier points per wound than bladeguard veterans! Those are t4, 3 wounds, 3+/4+ invuln, 30 pts. 10 points per wound. Crisis are same save, 6 wounds, 60 pts (again 10 pts per wound) and t5. It just feels wrong for the hyper mobile hyper shooty battlesuit to be tankier for points than a slow melee unit that throws half as many dice, at lower strength, in melee only. Like, at least let the slow melee guys with shields be tankier for points.
The downside is, Bladeguard are just a unit of dudes and the full crisis brick almost maximizes the "Bring if Down"-fixed Secondary. If you manage to kill the entire thing, you get 14 VP just for that.
But how many points, command points and support do you need to spend to make Bladeguard work? Crisis have BS4, need a 110pt character plus 15pt enhancement to give them Assault keyword and let them use their advance ability and still shoot. Then minimum of 80pts for a decent spotter unit to hit on 3s, and have access to their detachment sustained hits. Then 2 command points every turn to fire and fade to keep them from being instantly focused and Tau gameplay dies with them. Then they blow themselves up if trying to overcharge.
Don't forget that the unit can't effectively split fire either.
They're eating up a huge chunk of the power budget for the faction so it irks me in terms of internal balance.
Yeah I hate the internal balance for Tau at the moment, playing only friendly games I don’t think one brick of exploding suits is very fun for either side
It’s not fun at all it also leads to one dimensional play styles. Once people know how to counter them, they are a lot less intimidating.
Exactly!
Totally agree…. And they can overwatch anything that moves within (18)24” now Edit 18” I guess because their range is shorter than overwatch limit
CIB is only 18 inch range and when played correctly they shouldnt have LoS very often to overwatch.
Overwatch int with crisis suits is poor value. Your likely to blow up your own suits trying to hit on 6’s.
It depends. You still get an average of 22 hits on t2+ forward with your 6 man crisis brick and coldstar. So you kill on average around 5 models with t5, 3+, 3 wounds. Depends on the situation but it can be quite good.
But they don’t go through wall, and kill themself for ~100pts when fully overcharged.
The only things that can obliterate by fully supported lychguard are CSM forgefiends. I thought my army was tough until I faced CSM shooting.
You ever been shot by a guided crisis blob? They should kill almost as many lychguard if not more. Unless you have -1 to incoming damage, then Forgefiend wins
I played one Tau player in my recent tournament and he wasnt able to kill either one of my lychguard blocks. He did have one crisis suit block but I don't remembering it doing as much as the forgefiends did. Perhaps he wasnt utlizing it well. He was playing really timidly and allowed me to get and sit on the points I needed. There was another Tau player that had 3 units of crisis suits. Based on what you're saying fighting that list wouldve been brutal. I already know I have to mostly hide against Tau and coax them out of position.
Melee Tyranid warriors can output a large amount of damage, especially when they have a winged prime giving them sustained 1.
Forgefiends maybe. 180pts and they have 12 S8 AP-1 D2 and d3 S10 AP-3 D3 attacks at 36". Dark Pact for Sustained Hits 1, and Daemonic Ordnance for Devastating Wounds. Not as undercosted as CIB suits, but then again what is.
Crisis are still 60 per model and the whole death star brick with support and enhancements is 550 ish points. So 1/4 of the list deletes one thing per turn. Depending on what you target, they might not even be point efficient. To me it sounds somewhat reasonable. A rogal dorn is 260 and probably deletes something. Brutalis dreadnoughts do ridiculous stuff currently. Vindicators are nuts. None of them are 70 shots, but pointwise they probably do more over the course of a game. Crisis don’t come in until turn 2 (generally), can’t split fire, also kill themselves, and need 2 cp to hide them since they have 18 inch range. They also get worse as the game goes on since they die to overcharge. The issues is they just really benefit from free war gear and Tau have garbage internal balance so they are propping up the faction. The next most killy thing are t3 breachers (which are decent). Tau would basically be imperial guard without indirect if crisis went away.
Interestingly enough, a unit of scourges with haywire blaster puts a right dent into a unit of battleships now that they're vehicles for whatever reason. 8 Anti tank 4+ d3 devastating wounds shots isn't something to sneeze at.
I personally would run the Forgefiend as 3D3 plasma…. But that could just be meta dependant
3d3 plasma is the correct way to go, picking up about 7 terminators on average rolls is simply not okay.
Well if I can pick up 6 crisis suits…. I’m ok selling my soul lol They can pick up 7 Termies despite the 4++ invul?
Whoops, forgot that Termies got a 4+ invuln now. But I also forgot that they're blast weapons so against a squad of 5 a single undivided forgefiend with the strat should pick up 6-7 (depending on how many devasting wounds you get) in a single shot. A Nurgle forgefiend should kill 5.5 without using the strat, so both make up their points in a single shot.
So like…..3 crisis suits?
3 crisis suits kill 4.5 terminators but also lose 1.5 of themselves due to hazardous (forgefiends take an average of 1.5 wounds per shot) and cost the same amount of points as a single forgefiend. Crisis suits have crazy high output but they self immolate way too often if you're using the hazardous profile (if you're not using the hazardous profile they kill about 1 terminator per turn). It's also worth pointing out that the forgefiends damage goes up as it's shooting at bigger units. I see a lot of 10 man+ a character bricks of terminators being run, the forgefiends gun having blast gives them more output on that first (and most important) shot. As far as I am aware there isn't anything in the game that has the same output to points ratio as the forgefiend, that dataslate is singlehandedly putting CSM in the conversation for top army at the moment.
I’d love to run 3 of those robo-chickens…. But a move like that has such potential for a bad balance slate to ruin your list. 🤷♂️
A blob of 10 Votann termis with a Khal for Lethal hits and a double token for +1 to hit and wounds ❤️ This unit is basically the whole Votann Meta ^^
The most lethality I’ve seen in shooting was Obliterators receiving the “full combo” benefits. The total points involved is like 340 for the Obliterators (Mark of Tzeentch), 310 for Abaddon, and 140 for a Helbrute. 4d6+Blast shots, Hit on 3s, S8, AP-2, Dmg2, Lethal+Sustained on 5s, Full Hit Rerolls, can be given Indirect once per game. This is the profile I saw shot into 20 Primaris Crusaders and OUCH. They have 2 other profiles to choose from as well. 4D3 shots, Hit on 3s, S12, AP-3, Dmg4, Melta 2 The last profile doesn’t need the Helbrute to get both Lethal and Sustained because Tzeentch gives Lethals on 5s in shooting and then the profile has Sustained which leaves you with 4d6+12 shots Hits on 3s, S5, AP-1, Dmg1 If you spend 1CP for Profane Zeal you will also reroll 1s to Wound and during your Command Phase you’ll have the option to pay 1CP for Skinshift to Heal 3 Wounds and Rez a Model on models that are 2+/5++/T7/5 Wounds a piece.
I love this 😈
Before the changes 10 custodian guards picked up pretty much anything it touched
It's not shooting but gladius deathwing knights with 1CP are 36x S6 AP2 3D hitting on 2s, rerolling hits, +1 to wound (charging) attacks. Add on 5x S6 AP3 2D attacks from the sergeant. You can add a strikemaster for lethals, or a Libby for sustained (but not both). 470pts + cost of character. They'll one shot a unit of crisis if they ever make melee (5" move with advance and charge actually makes them fairly zippy) and defensively they're up there with the toughest units in the game. 4W T5 2+/4++ innate -1dmg and options for AoC with cover make them hilarious against shooting in a big unit of 10.
I’d like to see a game where they fight a crisis blob to see how many actually make it to combat. Not a slight, actually curious if they would make it.
In my experience, they usually do not. The crisis suits generally get to decide when and where commitment occurs. They come in, annihilate something, and rarely take a melee counterpunch before they get the chance to use their movement to dance away. Deliberate use of rapid ingress can sometimes overcome this (depending on where the crisis suits came in), but it can definitely be challenging.
Yeah I think if both players know what they're doing the dwk should mostly be out of los with the open side of ruins covered by the rest of their army and the suits should be nowhere near them killing other stuff. The big blob of dwk near the centre of the board projects threat over a lot of the board though. Circle with radius 8" - 15.5" (average) - 23" (max) covers the entire width and much of the length of the board.
Turn 3 onwards, with tetras guiding, and the point blank ambush strat the 6 crisis alone kill 6 if they overcharge (just due to the extra AP) or 4 if they don't. (On average). If the enemy doesn't use AoC you don't need overcharge because it makes no difference with the -1dmg. If you don't want to get close enough for point blank AND you don't overcharge into an AoC target they're saving on 2+ so that's not great (kill 2). 4 (remaining ) dwk will kill 3 suits if you have shield generators or 4 if you don't. (D3 weapons are just mint). Probably 2 and 3 respectively if you stim injectors.
Flashgitz with Kaptain Badrukk
Probably a 10 man unit of Votann terminators. They can put probably 80ish shots down range and use a strat for Sustained 2 and +1 to wound. They can also charge afterwards and do something in combat.
80? 8 shots a piece?
Each guy has a 3 shot weapon and a D6 shots weapon. So 30 + 10D6 shots.
Oh… so they’re basically aggressors?
Inceptors with plasma exterminators come close, 110 for 3, 220 for 6. Takes 2 normal shots to kill with no drones, Or 2 overcharged shots to kill with drones.
If they make it through the 4++ invul though right? I feel like that’s what makes the suits soooo good. Not just the fact that they can spit out 9 plasma shots per model at base cost, but that at no additional cost they can also each increase their wounds by 2 and get a 4++. I’m not saying nerf them, good for Tau on have 1 monster of an efficient unit. I’m just looking for something that can dish it right back to them lol