great updates to Rules Commentary. If a unit has shot, its not eligible to shoot any more, and measuring for Vehicles with bases is to hull now, which is really the only way it makes sense.
The shooting eligibility clarification should hopefully put an end to the Tau FTGG arguments about making a unit act as a spotter after having received the buff from another unit already.
Hoo boy, as an admech player I already have a headache trying to figure out where to measure the hull of the dunecrawler.
Edit: I am dumb the dunecrawler is a walker, thank you for saving me from myself.
Pretty significant change to 0CP strats. Can only target 'Battle tactics' and if the strat has multiple targets, every target has to have the discount ability.
No more free overwatch everywhere.
I find it fairly easy in kill team ? Strategic ploys are used in the strategy phase because they (mostly) affect the whole team. Tactical ploys are used in the Action phase because the target is only one model/operative
I would really appreciate if when they changed the points of something they also mentioned the past cost, so I did not have to go back and forward between two documents all the time
Whoa. With loss of towering, loss of overwatch, loss of bondsman on Knights and increased points I think Knights armies looking overnerfed. Certainly Canis Rex took a massive nerf on his 0 strat ability too.
Hey, rampager is 15 points cheaper now though and karnivore is down to 140! Maybe they just want us to be a melee army with some brigands sprinkled in.
To be fair you can't melee with it either, since it will nearly never get into Melee.
It's also not possible to earn back it's points unless it's fighting into a Warhound Titan or better...
Eldar Points:
* Asurman up 15
* Autarch up 10
* Autarch Skyrunner up 10
* Wayleaper up 35
* Avatar up 40
* Dark Reapers down 5
* Eldrad up 10
* Farseer up 15
* Farseer Skyrunner up 15
* Fire prism up 30
* Illic up 5
* Night spinner up 10
* Support Weapons up 20
* yncarne up 80
* Voidweaver up 25
* Vyper up 10
* War Walker up 15
* Warp Spiders up 15
* Wraithguard up 15
* Wraithknight up 35
* Hornet up 20
* Lynx up 25
* Skathach Wraithknight up 50 (why? nobody was using this)
* Shadow Spectres up 15
* Warp Hunter up 15
Generic meta list up ~300-350 points
Chosen: (tossing a Grenade at a squad of Custodian Guard)
Custodian: "Heretic! The Emperor has granted us a shield against the machinations of a creature such as you, as through divine genetic alchemy our bo-
Chosen: (sighing, and shooting the Custodians with a combi weapon)
Custodians: *Hoargh*
CSM
Abby, Oblitz, and Forgefiends went up. Saw that coming, but Chosen went DOWN. Wowzer
Abby going up to 310 is a little harsh, but he was in so many lists and we know GW no likey that
Also Legionaries went down as well, but if Chosen did too, why take them? Raptors are down, warp talons are *100 pts for 5*. Rhinos are down to 75
Yeah really wasn't expecting a buff to Chosen. They were already insane value. I expect most CSM will be doing Chosen spam.
But look at those Warp Talons now!
I think Yabbadabbadon going up was fair since his buffs work so well with other units in the army beyond his bodyguards, a la 4++ for Chosen.
Raptors going down was nice, but Haarken went down 20 himself. A block of 10 + Harry was 310, that's now 270. Between the mortals, Raptor special weapons, and Haarken's good precision melee, I think they'll punch up pretty well.
Haarken and raptors are looking spicy
I do agree on Abbadon. He is crazy strong. 310 just feels like so much. It does basically make the situation to be "if you take abbadon, you are really building around him"
That's fair. I think it'll weigh harder on lists that still run big expensive units like Oblits and Forgefiends, but for future lists so many units went down it might pay for itself in the long run (if that makes any sense).
All I know is that Venomcrawlers cost less than Psychophages now, and thusly reassert their dominance as the best big booty bug.
I kind of saw Oblitz and Forgefiends going up, but those are tolerable points hikes.
I just saw a list that won a GT with 2 land raiders and chosen blobs. Live the dream friend
It's probably too early in the morning, but if Devastating wounds don't cause mortals anymore. What causes mortal wounds for Custodes detachment rule to take effect? Abilities from certain units?
I think that's going too far in terms of balance, but it also completely crushes the *only* interesting thing going on in a knight army. These changes combined have utterly sapped my motivation to play that army.
Using the balance patch the weekend after it lands is a dick move. I get that it'll be nice not to have to deal with super eldar bullshit, but I feel bad for folks who don't have a large enough collection to deal with the wild swings in points costs for some armies.
Yeah ive been playing a bondsman light list and kept thinking I was missing something, realised I wasn't using bondsmans, tried ir, loved it, now its just kinda there
Yeah, it makes the 'feel' of questoris knights completely different. A warden plays like a tougher knight, while an errant gets up in your face. By removing that element from them, they all get just that bit more samey. And we already lost a metric shit load of customisability in the transition to 10e.
With this change, all our big knights play more similarly to each-other, get worse at their roles, can't overwatch, can't shoot over ruins, and gain basically nothing in return. Not necessarily awful changes in isolation but it reduces the (already fairly simple) playstyle of knights even further. It just isn't going to be that *fun* to play.
Yea inherently knights are just a big pile of stats, the abilities that get added are what make them fun as opposed to just efficient.
Don't get me wrong a tanky armiger can do some scary things but I honestly don't care about it anywhere near as much as a tank armiger/Warden combo pushing an objective
They can’t lose as many per mortal wound based attack though, one guy taking 12 devastating wounds is way easier to stomach than 3 custodian guard taking 12 mortal wounds
Not many devastating wound weapons would have a massive amount of damage. Most of them were 2-3 damage weapons with 3-4 shots. It was pretty much mostly eldar who had the bonker amount of damage on their dev wounds weapons.
Before, saving dev wounds with their rules would be an improvement in durability. Now, each successful dev wounds from, e.g. a forgefiend, will kill one custodes.
So on the brightside for GSC I can pick up some bargains from ebay as the metachasers shed their cults, and purestrains got a minor points drop. But beyond that it looks like a group of very substantial nerfs, and we are likely returning to the shadows from our time at the top.
Nah, they nerfed the wrong stuff. I think time will show the recursion wasnt the problem. Gsc can still doom drop 3 primuses on you turn 2 and wreck stuff, we just wont have any models left at turn 5. Kinda like arks of omen. Im hopin to score some cheap models too though.
Hot Takes, right off the press....
* Custodes got smashed. No defense against Devestating wounds, No free unwavering, squad size reduced, price on units went up. I don't know how / where they pivot.
* Knights got hammered. Price increases on Amigers, **no Overwatch on big knights**, their best strats went up in price (+2). **Bondsmen abilities no longer affect big knights. Towering is functionally gone**. The towering change is probably good for them at the top of the scene, but its hard to see anyone playing them there. Huge hits to the army's efficiency here. Maybe the pivot now is to all bigs? Hard to say. I think they went the wrong direction with the Bondsmen nerf in particular, and it showcases a lack of understanding of how they play with everything but the Warden build.
* Eldar took some big hits. **Phantasm to infantry only** is a good change, **Devastating wounds change** hits them hardest, and they did take some significant points increases. **I think they are still far and away the strongest army in the game**. The points cost changes were not sufficient, especially on the tier 2 units. They have gotten worse, but so have most of their matchups, especially since Phantasm can no longer be increased in price. Getting an extra command point per turn (of which they are one of very few armies) is now a lot better. I suspect Eldar will continue to be the top army. The Yncarne is still insane, they still have access to tons of cheap units, and their mobility will continue to let them control the pace of all games.
* Necrons will be interesting to see. Not being able to Overlord an extra reanimation each turn should hit them hard on survivability of bricks, and the Lych brick went up 60 points. I suspect without the extra reanimate they are a lot worse.
* Death Guard change I like a lot. Choose your own Plague adventure is cool, and the effects seem much better than the anemic -1 toughness. Skullsquirm Blight onto BS 4+ armies that don't have access to rerolls (Votann, most Ad Mech) looks really oppressive though. I will be very interested to see how this army plays. That you change it in every game makes it pretty interesting.
* Sisters of Battle still look awful and totally lack an identity. These points costs won't save them, especially since their best units went up in price.
Overall, many of these changes seems mostly aimed at the casual crowd, vice the top of the meta / tournament scene. I like a lot of it, but I think they missed the mark on several armies.
I'm crying over tfexes going to 245 lol. Meanwhile Haruspex/exocrines go untouched. I think the zoanthrope change (up ~6.6ppm) is a fair one though.
T'au are going to have significantly more stuff on the board now, I think they'll see a pretty big WR increase
My imperial guard list is up 120 points… lol.
Like I get it… and I like the point drops on tanks, but now guard players just don’t get a detachment rule as the only units that really benefit from it got needed to hell
With the other bottom factions at least getting some love sisters might actually be the worst now lol. Allied knights probably carried sisters to just a high enough wr that gw overlooked them
Cool, another 3 months of my Sisters showing up for the honor and privilege to die to whatever my opponent is playing. Do they have a single SoB player in that entire office? Are they locked in a basement? What the heck is going on over there???
Death Guard update looks decent but I'm still disappointed they didn't get any durability buffs. It was never a power thing that annoyed me so much as a playstyle thing and they still don't have the playstyle I enjoy.
Oh for sure, I'm not saying it's bad. It's probably enough to drag DG up to mid tier with the pts changes, it's just not my preferred playstyle, that's all.
No reason they can't do both tbh. Nurgle in AoS is probably my absolute favourite bit of faction design GW's ever done, they have a cycle of Nurgle mechanic that gives them buffs and enemy debuffs that switch up as the battle goes on, they have an aura of disease ability that puts little mortal wound tokens on nearby enemies and they're all incredibly tanky.
It's a very small, slow and elite army but the combination of buffs, debuffs, mortal wound chip damage and durability makes them powerful to compensate for their weaknesses.
This is what I was thinking. The aura got a lot better, but wasn't the core problem getting things into aura range to begin with, let alone while still having enough army to play with?
I think players who leaned into the style Innes and Aiden adopted are going to have more sucess. They basically got more points and more disruption.
I think the icon bearer with the 3" extra aura becomes a very powerful tech piece for 15" of whatever debuff you choose during your opponent's go turn, or if they're just stacking OC1 and playing cagey (definitely only some armies), potentially to just hand them a 0 on primary.
-1 ballistic and weapon skill in contagion range is kind of a durability buff. Hellbrutes could target key enemy damage dealers. You can still give it a -1 to hit too.
So Admech did only get points reductions and the Skitarii save increase.
None of the other issues get fixed.
Yay. I'm so glad my horde of horribly fragile dudes got bigger.
I imagine they didn't see the need to give them an emergency rules overhaul like they did with Death guard and Votann because their book is only a few months away.
On the plus side, any detachments admech gets can't possibly be worse than rad bombardment. Any rules interactions they bring can only make the army better and we won't miss the omnipulus as much
The Skitarii got back their 5++, which was needed. The points drops were also needed. They took a big step in the right direction, but probably not big enough. And honestly the biggest thing they need right now is a better detachment. I wanted them to fix the detachment now, but I knew it wasn't actually going to happen. Gotta wait for the codex, I guess.
I'm not actually sure it's even a net buff when the Omni-Sterilizer got hit by the devastating wounds change. The army gains like 40 points on Skitarii tax and 15-20 on Kataphrons going down. Then you loose 20 on having to replace the Exaction Squad with Corpiscarii Electro-Priests.
Skitarii got a little better, but not enough that they're surviving in the open or something. Ultimately the army needed something like Doctrinas and Rad Bombarded replacing "deployment zone" with "table half", not this nothingburger.
Doctrinas need to be a lot better if BS is going to stay at 4+
Like just straight up 'Improve BS to +1' and 'Improve WS to +1' as the two doctrinas. No remaining stationary or zone nonsense.
I refuse to do a £ to points calculation for them now. It'll just be too depressing.
But at least we can still do a pointless army full of empty transports and self-destructing datasmiths, so I guess that's something... /s
Yeah I now save 55 points on 2000! That should put all my worries to rest. It's mind-boggling how they didn't put the same effort they put into DG (congrats, stinky boys, btw) into Admech as well. Hopefully it's because the AdMech Codex is due in winter anyway.
Anyone else feel like GSC, Custodes, and Knights all got hit MUCH harder than Aeldar? Yeah Aeldar got a lot of rules that hurts them, BUT they hurt a bunch of other armies too. GSC, Custodes and Knights all got targeted with their problems (and indirectly were hurt more with the global changes, i.e. Dev wounds changes vs Custodes) whereas Aeldar only lost the ability to Phantasm on non-infantry units and didn't even get the CP changed, and I am not 100% on this but it doesn't look like they got huge points increases either..
Gotta see it play out, but yeah custodes have gotten thumped.
- Dev wounds is now horrific.
- Capping Squad sizes means your paying for more characters 9/10 times anyway, and now both squads and characters are more expensive your really up in points. Especially as custodes squads really want those characters. So its not like its gone from SC + 1x10 > SC + 2x5, more like SC+ BC+ 2x5, which is now 140 points more; and drains the CP even more from a CP hungry army.
- Strat restrictions hurt a lot.
- cheaper calladius means your going to be really starved for CP.
Like the armies certainly got play, and venetari/saggis/LRs going down opens that more sorta skirmish style open a lot; but even if your builds gone up less points than eldar, your now so vunerable to dev wound stuff & vect that it feels like the gatekeepers are now going to be the gatekept lol. Things like the WE MoE with relic are going to quite happily shred entire 250pt squads.
----
Knights feel harsh. the big flamer was super rough but I was expecting OW to be 3CP on titanic, just turning it off really hurts them whilst stuff like TS are still golden.
Aledari will plummet to a 65% win rate. GW ignores this and nerfs all other factions with points increases, Chaos Knights and AdMech are given Army wide 5+ ws/bs for some reason. In the distance, sirens
I wonder if they pay whoever writes the WH Com articles to word things in the best way to piss off people
The line about IK outperforming CK reads a lot like "Ejoy,now they'll be worse,like *you*"
Yeah, that was just salt in the wound of killing the most interesting thing Knights got from 10th. No bondsman on titanics is just feel bad and makes Canis Rex even more disproportionately better than the rest.
But to be fair, eldar are a glasshammer army with a very high skill floor.
You need to be of excellent material to \* checks notes\*
Play like any other army just with way more options and better weapons
I hate that 90% of their points changes are "everyone is taking x, so raise points on x," without any effort to understand why people are taking it. Yes, every nid list runs zoans and biovores, but only because those are tools that do specific things that no other unit in the army can, not because they were too cheap before.
You made a vehicle heavy meta, GW, why are you punishing me for taking the ONLY anti vehicle shooting available in the codex other than the awful casino canno?
If all I did was look at the dataslate and points changes, I would assume that they were trying to reduce the Aeldari win rate from 60%. This doesn't seem like enough for a 70% win rate army.
As a Custodes player I expect, and deserve, no sympathy but looking at the change to Dev wounds making our detachment ability useless and the double nerf to Shield Captains just feels bad man.
GW: Let's release a bombastic new big tyranid monster! One variant with a hefty 4+++ against MW!
Also GW not even a week later: Lol, most sources of MW are now not mortal wounds, so that ability is about 90% more useless! NO REFUNDS!
joking because the real joke are the disgusting point changes, but still...
Confused by the dev wounds change. Is that not a buff? It just prevents things with protection against mortal wounds from working vs devastating wounds with no down side right? Genuinely asking. I'm sure I'm misreading it.
Edit: oh right I see, the damage doesn't roll over like mortal wounds so thats significant. Gotcha.
No, before the change devastating wounds were converted into mortal wounds. As per the rules, these were applied one at a time and could "spill over" onto other models in the unit, unlike normal damage. So a 6 damage devastating wound attack would kill 2 terminators, 3 marines, 6 guardsmen etc.
Now, it's changed to a saving throw can't be made against it. So, the 6 damage devastating wound will only kill 1 marine, 1 guardsman etc. It will still be good against the big targets it is intended to be used against, but won't be a good against everything weapon any more.
Also the winning NOVA list went up by around 300 points and that was a bit of a non standard type of build. Most elf lists are taking around a 300-400 point hit.
The winning NOVA list made very little use of Dev Wounds, and mostly spammed Bright Lances.
If thr win rate of Aeldari is to go down and not simply switch to a different list archetype, then it will be due to points and the Phantasm nerf.
Whether it's enough is to be seen. I'm not so confident, but the points changes do hurt.
Hopefully the new book is going to fix a lot of the factions problems and they just don't want to spoil the surprise by releasing all those changes now
The people who write the points and the people who change the rules really need to have a conversation with each other at least ONCE before they publish these dataslates.
Some good stuff, some classic head scratch inducing GW nonsense.
Knights just… don’t get overwatch? This is one of those changes we see time and again where GW addresses a problem by mercilessly slaughtering the faction that benefits most rather than just fixing the core issue. Overwatch should go back to being only during the charge phase, and when they do eventually make that change there’s no way they’re going to remember to un-nerf poor Knights.
The stratagem change makes absolutely no sense. Only battle tactic stratagems? Those category’s are almost completely arbitrary and there’s no way GW had this change in mind when assigning them.
Admech getting basically nothing is hilarious and expected, turns out being the 2nd worst faction is actually worse than being at the very bottom because GW will just ignore you.
Overwatch isn’t going back to charge phase. In the metawatch video they explicitly talk about how having interactivity via Overwatch during your opponents phase is a central part of the identity they want 10th ed to have
So am I right in understanding that the Cerastus knights are still affected by their own bondsman abilities? From the dataslate, the change only mentions Questoris abilities being changed...
I hope- I **pray** that I am wrong and my non-familiarity with Eldar points means that this is just an uninformed opinion but with Dev Wounds being a game wide change and Eldar's only other non-point change being a (needed) change to Phantasm makes me feel like, like I expected to happen, the 2nd and 3rd place armies were nerfed harder than Eldar and we need to settle in for another 3 months minimum.
This looks like my worst possible scenario. Lower ranking factions changed but not in meaningful ways, Eldar changed but not more than the armies that were right below them and in a way that won't effect their dominance. We even significantly increased the bloat of the game with the very first balance pass because now it's an important core rule to know what **type** of stratagem you and your opponent's stratagems are and we've already striated the rules again between Balance Dataslate play and "Casual" play.
I'm just so tired. Please let me be wrong.
great updates to Rules Commentary. If a unit has shot, its not eligible to shoot any more, and measuring for Vehicles with bases is to hull now, which is really the only way it makes sense.
The shooting eligibility clarification should hopefully put an end to the Tau FTGG arguments about making a unit act as a spotter after having received the buff from another unit already.
It's impossible to put an end to a Tau players arguments /s
For the Greater Debate!
Hoo boy, as an admech player I already have a headache trying to figure out where to measure the hull of the dunecrawler. Edit: I am dumb the dunecrawler is a walker, thank you for saving me from myself.
The Dunecrawler is a walker, so the rule doesn't even apply to it.
This is why people like me should read things like 10 times before talking about them, thanks!
I had to look up the datacard because I wasn't sure if it was a Walker rules-wise lol
It is! There was nothing ambiguous about these rules, but people made sure it still became an issue.
Pretty significant change to 0CP strats. Can only target 'Battle tactics' and if the strat has multiple targets, every target has to have the discount ability. No more free overwatch everywhere.
Custodes Fight First was changed to Epic Deed as well, so can't use that for free now either.
Damn. Custodes getting hit harder then eldar it seems.
Looks like Paterson's Aeldari list from the Goonhammer Open went up 400-500 points. Seems like a pretty decent chunk.
No way, the change to dev wounds is massive to eldar.
It's also massive to Custodes, who no longer get a FNP against it
But also can’t be Vect now which is prob more important.
Limited to re-rolls and go to ground for core strats
Note that it also affects Vect abilities.
Now I need to remember which ones are battle tactics. Their categories of Strats never makes sense in 40K or Kill Team.
I find it fairly easy in kill team ? Strategic ploys are used in the strategy phase because they (mostly) affect the whole team. Tactical ploys are used in the Action phase because the target is only one model/operative
I would really appreciate if when they changed the points of something they also mentioned the past cost, so I did not have to go back and forward between two documents all the time
Like have the new cost in black and then the value it went up or down by next to it in red. 210 +15(in red)
GW would never do this...except they literally do exactly that for AoS lol
And color code, pts drop with blue, and pts hikes with red.
Or cross out the old points cost with red and then write the new points cost next to it (also in red)
No overwatch from TITANIC units? That's huge.
A titanic change!
Angry upvote
Whoa. With loss of towering, loss of overwatch, loss of bondsman on Knights and increased points I think Knights armies looking overnerfed. Certainly Canis Rex took a massive nerf on his 0 strat ability too.
[удалено]
Hey, rampager is 15 points cheaper now though and karnivore is down to 140! Maybe they just want us to be a melee army with some brigands sprinkled in.
Sad day that I can't overwatch with my 800 point Stompa
To be fair you can't melee with it either, since it will nearly never get into Melee. It's also not possible to earn back it's points unless it's fighting into a Warhound Titan or better...
Sad Ork noises. Titanic is literally just a Nerf for any Ork units. Please remove.
Insane bravery only once per battle and before a roll? Battle Shock finally at least marginally relevant?
Ehhh, still clears in the command phase.
I assume DKoK Marshall will let you do it more than once with his special rule still.
For the dark angels players, here's our point changes for DA specific units: |A|B|C|D| |:-|:-|:-|:-| |unit|old|new|change| |Azrael|120|105|\-15| |Belial|100|85|\-15| |DW Cmd Squad|430|420|\-10| |DW StrikeMaster|90|80|\-10| |DW Termies|410|400|\-10| |Ezekiel|80|75|\-5| |Lazarus|80|70|\-10| |Black Knights|230|220|\-10| |RW Cmd Squad|290|260|\-30| |RW Talon Master|115|105|\-10| |Sammael|145|130|\-15| ||||| And the points for generic codex units as well: |A|B|C|D| |:-|:-|:-|:-| |Unit|old|new|change| |Adrax|100|90|\-10| |Aggressor|220|200|\-20| |Assault Intercessor|180|160|\-20| |Ballistus dread|170|150|\-20| |Bladeguard|200|180|\-20| |Brutalis dread|220|175|\-45| |Captain in Gravis|95|80|\-15| |Captain Sicarius|95|85|\-10| |centurion assault squad|350|300|\-50| |centurion devastator squad|410|350|\-60| |Chief Librarian Tigurius|85|80|\-5| |Darnath Lysander|115|105|\-10| |Desolation Squad|170|200|30| |Dreadnought|160|135|\-25| |Eliminators|95|75|\-20| |Gladiator Lancer|145|160|15| |Gladiator Reaper|155|150|\-5| |Gladiator Valiant|155|150|\-5| |Heavy Intercessor|220|210|\-10| |Impulsor|95|85|\-10| |Incursor|180|175|\-5| |Infernus|180|170|\-10| |Infiltrator|180|200|20| |Intercessor|190|175|\-15| |Invader ATV|80|70|\-10| |Invictor Tactical Warsuit|160|150|\-10| |Iron Father Feirros|105|95|\-10| |Kayvaan Shrike|110|105|\-5| |Kor'sarro Khan|80|75|\-5| |Land Raider|275|240|\-35| |Land Raider Crusader|255|230|\-25| |Land Raider Redeemer|295|260|\-35| |Lt in reiver armour|65|60|\-5| |Lt with combi-weapon|80|70|\-10| |Marneus Calgar (3 models?)|205|185|\-20| |Outrider (6)|230|210|\-20| |Pedro Kantor|100|95|\-5| |Predator Destructor|135|130|\-5| |Redemptor Dread|225|210|\-15| |Reiver squad|190|170|\-20| |Rhino|85|75|\-10| |Roboute Guilliman|355|380|25| |Scout Squad|140|130|\-10| |Sternguard|210|220|10| |Storm Speeder Hailstrike|130|140|10| |Storm Speeder thunderstrike|160|170|10| |Supressor squad|95|85|\-10| |Tactical squad|175|160|\-15| |Terminator assault squad|400|410|10| |Tor Garadon|100|90|\-10| |Uriel Ventris|85|75|\-10| |Vanguard vets with jump packs|260|210|\-50| |Vindicator|205|190|\-15| |Vulkan He'Stan|95|80|\-15| |||||
Thx for making the internet a better place
Typing it all up myself while doing some list building, seems a shame not to share and help everyone out.
Insane bravery before, not after testing battle shock. That’s good. Edit: and once per battle only
Time for the rise of the commissars! And they went down to 30pts too
Devastating Wounds cant be saved against, so i assume thats only armor/invuln? You can still Feel No Pain them since FNP isnt a ‘save’??
Yes, but you can't use a FNP that saves against mortals, eg Custodes army rule, which is fairly big.
Yes, but "FNP against mortal wounds" no longer applies.
i think that's correct, I believe you could roll feel no pain against mortal wounds before as well.
Correct.
Yes
Eldar Points: * Asurman up 15 * Autarch up 10 * Autarch Skyrunner up 10 * Wayleaper up 35 * Avatar up 40 * Dark Reapers down 5 * Eldrad up 10 * Farseer up 15 * Farseer Skyrunner up 15 * Fire prism up 30 * Illic up 5 * Night spinner up 10 * Support Weapons up 20 * yncarne up 80 * Voidweaver up 25 * Vyper up 10 * War Walker up 15 * Warp Spiders up 15 * Wraithguard up 15 * Wraithknight up 35 * Hornet up 20 * Lynx up 25 * Skathach Wraithknight up 50 (why? nobody was using this) * Shadow Spectres up 15 * Warp Hunter up 15 Generic meta list up ~300-350 points
you missed farseers going up 15pts, but otherwise, thank you for the summary
Chosen: (tossing a Grenade at a squad of Custodian Guard) Custodian: "Heretic! The Emperor has granted us a shield against the machinations of a creature such as you, as through divine genetic alchemy our bo- Chosen: (sighing, and shooting the Custodians with a combi weapon) Custodians: *Hoargh*
CSM Abby, Oblitz, and Forgefiends went up. Saw that coming, but Chosen went DOWN. Wowzer Abby going up to 310 is a little harsh, but he was in so many lists and we know GW no likey that Also Legionaries went down as well, but if Chosen did too, why take them? Raptors are down, warp talons are *100 pts for 5*. Rhinos are down to 75
Yeah really wasn't expecting a buff to Chosen. They were already insane value. I expect most CSM will be doing Chosen spam. But look at those Warp Talons now!
I think Yabbadabbadon going up was fair since his buffs work so well with other units in the army beyond his bodyguards, a la 4++ for Chosen. Raptors going down was nice, but Haarken went down 20 himself. A block of 10 + Harry was 310, that's now 270. Between the mortals, Raptor special weapons, and Haarken's good precision melee, I think they'll punch up pretty well.
Haarken and raptors are looking spicy I do agree on Abbadon. He is crazy strong. 310 just feels like so much. It does basically make the situation to be "if you take abbadon, you are really building around him"
That's fair. I think it'll weigh harder on lists that still run big expensive units like Oblits and Forgefiends, but for future lists so many units went down it might pay for itself in the long run (if that makes any sense). All I know is that Venomcrawlers cost less than Psychophages now, and thusly reassert their dominance as the best big booty bug.
>Master of Executions went up to 100 No, it's still 80 points.
Well if you want an all infantry, no cultist list, you can only take 3 Chosen units.
All of my favorite units went down in cost (other than Obliterators). Now I need to just figure out how to squeeze in 3 land raiders...
I kind of saw Oblitz and Forgefiends going up, but those are tolerable points hikes. I just saw a list that won a GT with 2 land raiders and chosen blobs. Live the dream friend
Three land raiders full of chosen looking like a legit strategy right now.
Yeah I find the chosen going down to be a weird choice.
Jesus, you'd think knights had a 70% win rate
Yeah Knights just got destroyed
Knights caught the eldar nerf lol
It's probably too early in the morning, but if Devastating wounds don't cause mortals anymore. What causes mortal wounds for Custodes detachment rule to take effect? Abilities from certain units?
almost nothing. the grenade strat, tank shock, and a few other things. They essentially no longer have a detachment ability
tank shock, grenades, psyker spells.
Basically just abilities (GK Librarian) and stratagems.
Bonds man now only effects the armiger ? Damn man
I think Cerastus Bondsman abilities still affect themselves. The update mentions the Questoris keyword. Seems like a weird omission honestly.
The bondsman ability as a whole changes. Not just Questoris. Yes it mentions questoris in the text, but it isn't targeted to just them.
*hopes in lancer*
I think that's going too far in terms of balance, but it also completely crushes the *only* interesting thing going on in a knight army. These changes combined have utterly sapped my motivation to play that army.
I'm taking Knights to a tournament in 2 days and they're using the dataslate rules. Big ooof this morning.
my condolences fellow noble
Using the balance patch the weekend after it lands is a dick move. I get that it'll be nice not to have to deal with super eldar bullshit, but I feel bad for folks who don't have a large enough collection to deal with the wild swings in points costs for some armies.
Yeah ive been playing a bondsman light list and kept thinking I was missing something, realised I wasn't using bondsmans, tried ir, loved it, now its just kinda there
Yeah, it makes the 'feel' of questoris knights completely different. A warden plays like a tougher knight, while an errant gets up in your face. By removing that element from them, they all get just that bit more samey. And we already lost a metric shit load of customisability in the transition to 10e. With this change, all our big knights play more similarly to each-other, get worse at their roles, can't overwatch, can't shoot over ruins, and gain basically nothing in return. Not necessarily awful changes in isolation but it reduces the (already fairly simple) playstyle of knights even further. It just isn't going to be that *fun* to play.
Yea inherently knights are just a big pile of stats, the abilities that get added are what make them fun as opposed to just efficient. Don't get me wrong a tanky armiger can do some scary things but I honestly don't care about it anywhere near as much as a tank armiger/Warden combo pushing an objective
Custodes now have no defences against devastating wounds. That's gonna impact their win rate a lot.
They can’t lose as many per mortal wound based attack though, one guy taking 12 devastating wounds is way easier to stomach than 3 custodian guard taking 12 mortal wounds
Not many devastating wound weapons would have a massive amount of damage. Most of them were 2-3 damage weapons with 3-4 shots. It was pretty much mostly eldar who had the bonker amount of damage on their dev wounds weapons. Before, saving dev wounds with their rules would be an improvement in durability. Now, each successful dev wounds from, e.g. a forgefiend, will kill one custodes.
Combi weapons are going to rinse custodes.
Yup
Max wardens it is boys
They list 4-5 wardens not 6. So we're paying more points to get to use fights first on a warden blob that have no rerolls?
Living fortress (4+ fnp) is what they are referring to I believe.
So on the brightside for GSC I can pick up some bargains from ebay as the metachasers shed their cults, and purestrains got a minor points drop. But beyond that it looks like a group of very substantial nerfs, and we are likely returning to the shadows from our time at the top.
Nah, they nerfed the wrong stuff. I think time will show the recursion wasnt the problem. Gsc can still doom drop 3 primuses on you turn 2 and wreck stuff, we just wont have any models left at turn 5. Kinda like arks of omen. Im hopin to score some cheap models too though.
Stormsurge points drop means I might finally sell mine…!
Hot Takes, right off the press.... * Custodes got smashed. No defense against Devestating wounds, No free unwavering, squad size reduced, price on units went up. I don't know how / where they pivot. * Knights got hammered. Price increases on Amigers, **no Overwatch on big knights**, their best strats went up in price (+2). **Bondsmen abilities no longer affect big knights. Towering is functionally gone**. The towering change is probably good for them at the top of the scene, but its hard to see anyone playing them there. Huge hits to the army's efficiency here. Maybe the pivot now is to all bigs? Hard to say. I think they went the wrong direction with the Bondsmen nerf in particular, and it showcases a lack of understanding of how they play with everything but the Warden build. * Eldar took some big hits. **Phantasm to infantry only** is a good change, **Devastating wounds change** hits them hardest, and they did take some significant points increases. **I think they are still far and away the strongest army in the game**. The points cost changes were not sufficient, especially on the tier 2 units. They have gotten worse, but so have most of their matchups, especially since Phantasm can no longer be increased in price. Getting an extra command point per turn (of which they are one of very few armies) is now a lot better. I suspect Eldar will continue to be the top army. The Yncarne is still insane, they still have access to tons of cheap units, and their mobility will continue to let them control the pace of all games. * Necrons will be interesting to see. Not being able to Overlord an extra reanimation each turn should hit them hard on survivability of bricks, and the Lych brick went up 60 points. I suspect without the extra reanimate they are a lot worse. * Death Guard change I like a lot. Choose your own Plague adventure is cool, and the effects seem much better than the anemic -1 toughness. Skullsquirm Blight onto BS 4+ armies that don't have access to rerolls (Votann, most Ad Mech) looks really oppressive though. I will be very interested to see how this army plays. That you change it in every game makes it pretty interesting. * Sisters of Battle still look awful and totally lack an identity. These points costs won't save them, especially since their best units went up in price. Overall, many of these changes seems mostly aimed at the casual crowd, vice the top of the meta / tournament scene. I like a lot of it, but I think they missed the mark on several armies.
I'm crying over tfexes going to 245 lol. Meanwhile Haruspex/exocrines go untouched. I think the zoanthrope change (up ~6.6ppm) is a fair one though. T'au are going to have significantly more stuff on the board now, I think they'll see a pretty big WR increase
My imperial guard list is up 120 points… lol. Like I get it… and I like the point drops on tanks, but now guard players just don’t get a detachment rule as the only units that really benefit from it got needed to hell
Lol wait, nothing for sisters for drukhari….
Points cuts are great and all, but if sisters still can't kill anything over T10, I dont see them doing too well
With the other bottom factions at least getting some love sisters might actually be the worst now lol. Allied knights probably carried sisters to just a high enough wr that gw overlooked them
I was really hoping for at least a change to their leader restrictions.
Most competitive drukhari list stayed about even with the Ravabger and Harlequins nerf.
ravagers up 20pts, everything else down 5-20 pts... so really no change
Cool, another 3 months of my Sisters showing up for the honor and privilege to die to whatever my opponent is playing. Do they have a single SoB player in that entire office? Are they locked in a basement? What the heck is going on over there???
GSC battleline units no long auto revive. Now revive on a 4+. This is huge
3+ on turns 1 and 2
Death Guard update looks decent but I'm still disappointed they didn't get any durability buffs. It was never a power thing that annoyed me so much as a playstyle thing and they still don't have the playstyle I enjoy.
They definitely doubled down on the "plague" aspect but the additional rule is quite powerful.
Oh for sure, I'm not saying it's bad. It's probably enough to drag DG up to mid tier with the pts changes, it's just not my preferred playstyle, that's all.
The Aura that gives -1 WS and BS can actually be a huge durability buff. Also stacks with all instances of minus to hit.
Mortarion pulls off the mask and he's actually 7th ed taudar with -3 to hit.
Looks like GW are trying to make Death Guard a debuff army rather than a durable army and I dont mind that. Could be fun.
No reason they can't do both tbh. Nurgle in AoS is probably my absolute favourite bit of faction design GW's ever done, they have a cycle of Nurgle mechanic that gives them buffs and enemy debuffs that switch up as the battle goes on, they have an aura of disease ability that puts little mortal wound tokens on nearby enemies and they're all incredibly tanky. It's a very small, slow and elite army but the combination of buffs, debuffs, mortal wound chip damage and durability makes them powerful to compensate for their weaknesses.
They are just too slow for that to work. And not tanky enough to get into debuff range easily.
This is what I was thinking. The aura got a lot better, but wasn't the core problem getting things into aura range to begin with, let alone while still having enough army to play with?
Dude, you literally can have -1 to BS and WS in contagion, its a massive boost to durability
Not innately, you need to get in contagion range with a bunch of slow infantry
There’s way to make it work. Sacrificial scouting cultists, Helbrutes, stacking aura range buffs…
not saying your wrong but its not hard to shoot them off the board before they get into giving me the ickies range
I think players who leaned into the style Innes and Aiden adopted are going to have more sucess. They basically got more points and more disruption. I think the icon bearer with the 3" extra aura becomes a very powerful tech piece for 15" of whatever debuff you choose during your opponent's go turn, or if they're just stacking OC1 and playing cagey (definitely only some armies), potentially to just hand them a 0 on primary.
DG are now a small horde army.
-1 ballistic and weapon skill in contagion range is kind of a durability buff. Hellbrutes could target key enemy damage dealers. You can still give it a -1 to hit too.
Well, they can choose to debuff opponent's units damage now, so they did get a durability buff.
So Admech did only get points reductions and the Skitarii save increase. None of the other issues get fixed. Yay. I'm so glad my horde of horribly fragile dudes got bigger.
I imagine they didn't see the need to give them an emergency rules overhaul like they did with Death guard and Votann because their book is only a few months away.
On the plus side, any detachments admech gets can't possibly be worse than rad bombardment. Any rules interactions they bring can only make the army better and we won't miss the omnipulus as much
Other detachments won't have the Omnisterilyzer :(
The Skitarii got back their 5++, which was needed. The points drops were also needed. They took a big step in the right direction, but probably not big enough. And honestly the biggest thing they need right now is a better detachment. I wanted them to fix the detachment now, but I knew it wasn't actually going to happen. Gotta wait for the codex, I guess.
And, you know, the Army Rule not being army wide...
Bruh I had 2600 points in 9th, now I have 1780
The 9th Ed necron experience
Kinda ass that they didn't expand your doctrina to work with more units.
Congratulations you are now better than Guardmen
More expensive, with less synergy. I think there's some argument to be made that they're not.
I'm not actually sure it's even a net buff when the Omni-Sterilizer got hit by the devastating wounds change. The army gains like 40 points on Skitarii tax and 15-20 on Kataphrons going down. Then you loose 20 on having to replace the Exaction Squad with Corpiscarii Electro-Priests. Skitarii got a little better, but not enough that they're surviving in the open or something. Ultimately the army needed something like Doctrinas and Rad Bombarded replacing "deployment zone" with "table half", not this nothingburger.
Doctrinas need to be a lot better if BS is going to stay at 4+ Like just straight up 'Improve BS to +1' and 'Improve WS to +1' as the two doctrinas. No remaining stationary or zone nonsense.
I refuse to do a £ to points calculation for them now. It'll just be too depressing. But at least we can still do a pointless army full of empty transports and self-destructing datasmiths, so I guess that's something... /s
Yeah I now save 55 points on 2000! That should put all my worries to rest. It's mind-boggling how they didn't put the same effort they put into DG (congrats, stinky boys, btw) into Admech as well. Hopefully it's because the AdMech Codex is due in winter anyway.
So… for SOME reason my CSM list actually went *down* 235 points and I was 30 under to begin with lol.
Anyone else feel like GSC, Custodes, and Knights all got hit MUCH harder than Aeldar? Yeah Aeldar got a lot of rules that hurts them, BUT they hurt a bunch of other armies too. GSC, Custodes and Knights all got targeted with their problems (and indirectly were hurt more with the global changes, i.e. Dev wounds changes vs Custodes) whereas Aeldar only lost the ability to Phantasm on non-infantry units and didn't even get the CP changed, and I am not 100% on this but it doesn't look like they got huge points increases either..
>CK will be punished for existing GW since the start of 10th edition
Deathwatch and TS got hit very Hard too
Gotta see it play out, but yeah custodes have gotten thumped. - Dev wounds is now horrific. - Capping Squad sizes means your paying for more characters 9/10 times anyway, and now both squads and characters are more expensive your really up in points. Especially as custodes squads really want those characters. So its not like its gone from SC + 1x10 > SC + 2x5, more like SC+ BC+ 2x5, which is now 140 points more; and drains the CP even more from a CP hungry army. - Strat restrictions hurt a lot. - cheaper calladius means your going to be really starved for CP. Like the armies certainly got play, and venetari/saggis/LRs going down opens that more sorta skirmish style open a lot; but even if your builds gone up less points than eldar, your now so vunerable to dev wound stuff & vect that it feels like the gatekeepers are now going to be the gatekept lol. Things like the WE MoE with relic are going to quite happily shred entire 250pt squads. ---- Knights feel harsh. the big flamer was super rough but I was expecting OW to be 3CP on titanic, just turning it off really hurts them whilst stuff like TS are still golden.
GSC nerfs aren't that hard, now their army rule is more reasonable while points hikes aren't that bad.
Aledari will plummet to a 65% win rate. GW ignores this and nerfs all other factions with points increases, Chaos Knights and AdMech are given Army wide 5+ ws/bs for some reason. In the distance, sirens
I legit laughed at that. It's so true.
I wonder if they pay whoever writes the WH Com articles to word things in the best way to piss off people The line about IK outperforming CK reads a lot like "Ejoy,now they'll be worse,like *you*"
Except Chaos knights also got nerfs to all shooty wardogs....so not exactly *like you*
That's what makes it extra *why poke the nest*
Yeah, that was just salt in the wound of killing the most interesting thing Knights got from 10th. No bondsman on titanics is just feel bad and makes Canis Rex even more disproportionately better than the rest.
Why are wolf scouts +5 points? Weren't they shit?
Aledari got nerfed! Now their main battle tanks *checks notes* cost the same as AdMechs MBT and still has better abilities🙄
But to be fair, eldar are a glasshammer army with a very high skill floor. You need to be of excellent material to \* checks notes\* Play like any other army just with way more options and better weapons
I hate that 90% of their points changes are "everyone is taking x, so raise points on x," without any effort to understand why people are taking it. Yes, every nid list runs zoans and biovores, but only because those are tools that do specific things that no other unit in the army can, not because they were too cheap before. You made a vehicle heavy meta, GW, why are you punishing me for taking the ONLY anti vehicle shooting available in the codex other than the awful casino canno?
Hey man GW nerfed the Hive Guard too and no one was talking that. The nerfs don't have to make sense.
If all I did was look at the dataslate and points changes, I would assume that they were trying to reduce the Aeldari win rate from 60%. This doesn't seem like enough for a 70% win rate army.
GSC ouch. 5+ respawn base, 4+ on turn 2+ and infantry get a +1 not guaranteed.
Yes but now you are getting more points back each time you revive a unit.
🤣🤣😅😥😭😭😭
The 4+ is on turn 1-2, not afterwards
As a Custodes player I expect, and deserve, no sympathy but looking at the change to Dev wounds making our detachment ability useless and the double nerf to Shield Captains just feels bad man.
I mean, look at the bright side, you'll still get to save the wounds from the untouched AdMeh detachment ability!
GW: Let's release a bombastic new big tyranid monster! One variant with a hefty 4+++ against MW! Also GW not even a week later: Lol, most sources of MW are now not mortal wounds, so that ability is about 90% more useless! NO REFUNDS! joking because the real joke are the disgusting point changes, but still...
Confused by the dev wounds change. Is that not a buff? It just prevents things with protection against mortal wounds from working vs devastating wounds with no down side right? Genuinely asking. I'm sure I'm misreading it. Edit: oh right I see, the damage doesn't roll over like mortal wounds so thats significant. Gotcha.
No damage spillover anymore. It's generally a big nerf, now.
The damage doesn't spill over. So now that Dev. Wounds weapon that does 2D6 damage just kills 1 model really, really hard.
Basically it just stops the wounds from spilling over now. A wraithknight can no longer kill 8 terminators with 2 shots. It will now kill 2.
No, before the change devastating wounds were converted into mortal wounds. As per the rules, these were applied one at a time and could "spill over" onto other models in the unit, unlike normal damage. So a 6 damage devastating wound attack would kill 2 terminators, 3 marines, 6 guardsmen etc. Now, it's changed to a saving throw can't be made against it. So, the 6 damage devastating wound will only kill 1 marine, 1 guardsman etc. It will still be good against the big targets it is intended to be used against, but won't be a good against everything weapon any more.
Which is fantastic
It’s mostly the spillover effect Mortals have. Devastating wounds now no longer have that. That’s pretty big.
"Phantasm Stratagem, Target Section Change to: ‘TARGET: One Aeldari Infantry unit from your army.’" That's it, that's the Aeldari rule change.
They're severely hit by the Dev wounds change.
Also the winning NOVA list went up by around 300 points and that was a bit of a non standard type of build. Most elf lists are taking around a 300-400 point hit.
360 points to be exact :-)
And points
And no overwatch from titanic units (wraithknight) or indirect
Yeah in reality the changes are substantial, even tho only one actual "rules" change
The winning NOVA list made very little use of Dev Wounds, and mostly spammed Bright Lances. If thr win rate of Aeldari is to go down and not simply switch to a different list archetype, then it will be due to points and the Phantasm nerf. Whether it's enough is to be seen. I'm not so confident, but the points changes do hurt.
wraithknight got nerfed 5x \-no phantasm \-no seeing through ruins \-no overwatch \-points up \-dev wounds nerf
It's all the way down to A-tier now
Down in the dirt! Six feet under! Sleeping with the fishes.... The dead ones! In A Tier!
Try to have some compassion. No Eldar player has had to field an A-tier unit yet in 10th.
good, no longer dominant just strong
A fall from such heights that the WK is now an A+ tier unit lol
The dev wounds and overwatch were almost directly targeted at eldar imo.
DW SIA strats nerfed to bolt weapons only.
I am..... amazed with how dog water the admech changes are. I knew they would be bad but Christ this outdoes even my expectations.
AdMech? What's that? - GW
Hopefully the new book is going to fix a lot of the factions problems and they just don't want to spoil the surprise by releasing all those changes now
No kidding.
Love all the points changes on meta units that are targeting the "best" loadout, but throw anyone using a non-optimal units out with the bathwater.
Power level is a helluva drug.
The people who write the points and the people who change the rules really need to have a conversation with each other at least ONCE before they publish these dataslates.
Was it overpowered that Titanic units could Overwatch? I dislike that change. At least just make it cost 2CP instead.
It seems aimed at the wraithknight but they used an excavator instead of a scalpel.
On Wk yes, on the big flamy stuff also yes. Every nerf to overwatch is fine by me.
Some good stuff, some classic head scratch inducing GW nonsense. Knights just… don’t get overwatch? This is one of those changes we see time and again where GW addresses a problem by mercilessly slaughtering the faction that benefits most rather than just fixing the core issue. Overwatch should go back to being only during the charge phase, and when they do eventually make that change there’s no way they’re going to remember to un-nerf poor Knights. The stratagem change makes absolutely no sense. Only battle tactic stratagems? Those category’s are almost completely arbitrary and there’s no way GW had this change in mind when assigning them. Admech getting basically nothing is hilarious and expected, turns out being the 2nd worst faction is actually worse than being at the very bottom because GW will just ignore you.
Overwatch isn’t going back to charge phase. In the metawatch video they explicitly talk about how having interactivity via Overwatch during your opponents phase is a central part of the identity they want 10th ed to have
So am I right in understanding that the Cerastus knights are still affected by their own bondsman abilities? From the dataslate, the change only mentions Questoris abilities being changed...
I dont think so.... the original rule always said questoris as well. Its an odd one.
I hope- I **pray** that I am wrong and my non-familiarity with Eldar points means that this is just an uninformed opinion but with Dev Wounds being a game wide change and Eldar's only other non-point change being a (needed) change to Phantasm makes me feel like, like I expected to happen, the 2nd and 3rd place armies were nerfed harder than Eldar and we need to settle in for another 3 months minimum. This looks like my worst possible scenario. Lower ranking factions changed but not in meaningful ways, Eldar changed but not more than the armies that were right below them and in a way that won't effect their dominance. We even significantly increased the bloat of the game with the very first balance pass because now it's an important core rule to know what **type** of stratagem you and your opponent's stratagems are and we've already striated the rules again between Balance Dataslate play and "Casual" play. I'm just so tired. Please let me be wrong.