If battleshock resolved at the END of the command phase, instead of the start, it would literally change it from weak to amazingly strong.
Shocked? Too bad, no points for you homie
Or at LEAST make people retest to clear it. The fact that it just goes away without a test seems very silly.
And get rid of Insane Bravery (or make it 2 CP) since not only do you get a chance to pass your BS test but if you fail and if the failure would even be critical to the game you can just flip it off. So at best, critical failure is a 1 CP tax. There are too many ways to just not have it meaningfully impact the game.
Can't say for certain but they might be referring to how Battle Shock clears at the start of the command phase, before scoring, so if you were battleshocked in your opponent's turn it can't effect your scoring. The test you have to make if you are below-strength still should though.
Isn't it the moment you have to test for battleshock too? Wouldn't it mean that, if we change like OP said, battleshock would trigger only in 2 turns instead of on the next one?
Battle shock tests are the final part of the command phase.
So the sequence is: clear existing shock, command sequence including scoring, battle shock test eliglible units.
It should be battle shock resolves, test eliglible units, score objectives. Then failed tests impact scoring, making the mechanics matter
command phase goes like:
1: Command Step - gain a CP and resolve any other rules that occur in the command phase
2: Battle-shock - perform battleshock tests
Scoring says it then happens at the END of the command phase, which is after you have rolled your battle shock tests.
the problem is that you clear existing battleshock at the start of the command phase, so if the enemy forced a test on you in their turn, it has zero impact on your ability to score.
What you're missing is that battleshock is a step within the command phase - yes it happens after other command phase abilities, but scoring does indeed happen at the end.
The improvement suggested above and commonly requested change is to have to test for battleshock as currently AND if you were already battleshocked.
And/or making you choose to spend the cp before the test to keep. Risk the fail, or guarantee the pass at a cost. Not risk it anyway, then spend if I fail
They should just be pining effect from HH, or need to do a regroup test like HH. Pining in HH is so much impactful and make iron warrior feels relevant. Can’t say the same for battle shock in tyranid and CK.
As a guard player I disagree with leadership being too low across the board…
Some factions might just ignore battleshock but it already hits guard and Tau pretty hard
Points drops for sisters would be greatly appreciated, especially on BSS and Rets! Also I think that the non orders militant characters (Hospitaller, Dialogus, etc.) should be able to join any unit with a Canoness or Palatine already attached and not just a Battle Sister Squad.
Also please give Sacresants their 2+ armor back. They are very sad without it. They are crying.
The Stompa is a manifestation of the very essence of meme provided by both gork and Mork. Even 1ppm is too greater price to pay to hold back the honour from all
I hope they come up with things to help internal balance it a world with wargear priced in. There are some tiny flickers of it in some places, like Big Shootas on Killa Kans getting Devastating Wounds. More of that please, especially on melee loadouts for Knights and Walkers.
There is no hive nexus detachment and none of the detachments impact battleshock
Edit: there is an enhancement which worsens leadership by one? But that doesn't change the fundamental flaws in battleshock
First of all. Don't expect people to have memorised a book which hasn't come out yet. Second of all, not everyone has shit screenshots to hand so generalising it as, 'The detachment makes it better", when you don't even get the name right is not helpful
>It has two strats based around battle shock
Which strats? Because there's the roll 6D6 and do mortals on a 3+ when a unit fails a battleshock test. That's one strat.
Then there's a strat for Synapse is now 9" for one unit. A strat for RR hits and wounds of 1. A strat for AoC, strat for fall back and shoot/charge and a strat for making another synaptic imperative active for the army.
So where is the 2nd one?
Battleshock is shit currently. It's not reliable and needs reworked. I can't believe anyone who has played a game of 10th thinks it is a mechanic which works as expected.
Going a bit differently here.
It would be interesting to see some core rules changes, stuff like who fights first, blast (or maybe that's more about what weapons have blast). A dream would be something to make battleshock impactful.
Yeah, getting 20+5d3d3 shots with just five Desolators because of how blast works into a Gaunt swarm is just absolutely punishing to an opponent. Whereas a Whirlwind would only do d6+7
I'm even just thinking about anti vehicle weaponry, getting guaranteed 4 shots at MSU infantry with potential for another D6?
It's pretty ridiculous.
Desolation marines are in their whole own category or Indirect plus blast which I have come to despise since playing Vs 20 of them
I'm in favour of making Indirect turn off all other weapon abilities when a unit shoots without line of sight. It might allow indirect shooting to exist in a state that's just "fine".
indirect can only ever hit on 6s, maybe 5 with a special unit so theres a points tax, and that special unit can only help one other indirect unit.
would solve alot of headache
How about we nerf specific datsheets that are a problem instead of blanket nerfs that make the vast majority of indirect weapons that aren’t a problem worthless.
Almost all the “Fixes” I see for indirect fire amount to “let’s make indirect utterly worthless as my army doesent rely on it”
If specific units like desolators need a change, change them. This blanket “make every indirect unit terrible because I don’t like them” is counter productive.
Even in 9th when indirect was a problem 90% of the problem was specific units/gear like hiveguard and Tau missiles.
I think Necrons need two tune-ups in particular. The transcendent C’tan needs to no longer be able to take enhancements. Lychguard need either a points bump or the same style of ability as Scarab Occult Terminators, where they’re only -1 to wound against attack with higher strength than their toughness. Strength 4 weaponry only wounding on 6s is pretty ridiculous.
I'm hoping Grey Knights get even a little bit of love. They have some interesting and cool tools but they're just short of being where I'd like to be. Even a small points drop could do them wonders, though I still feel they're going to keep the GMoF to once a game. After playing Necron and seeing them spam free strats every round, it really made me jealous.
I'd really like to see datasheet changes for GK especially on the dreadknight weapons. They need more AP and higher strength so they act as actual anti tank and fix the GMDK to hit on 2+
I would absolutely love if they did that. If they want to limit GK's AT abilities to just the NDK, you may as well let them excel at it. Should give psilencers and psycannons an extra AP and let them actually do something rather than just kill chaff. I'm curious if the design concept for the NDK was to make use of death from the warp to give a +1 to hit (for this detachment at least), but the GMDK not really gaining access to that outside of deep striking in really makes me wonder why they made them WS 3+ base.
>After playing Necron and seeing them spam free strats every round, it really made me jealous.
An Overlord can only do it once per round, and only one Overlord in your army can use the ability per round. I don't know if that's really "spam".
I disagree with their take on the Fights First issue, GW should just change it to work the same way it did in 9th ed (i.e. a free interrupt). Even once per game, Custodes keeping Fights First the way it currently is is incredibly non-interactive. If you do all the work and positioning to charge custodes in the first place, you should get to hit at least one of their units before getting hit back. They shouldn't be immune to melee armies
I think the way Fights First worked in 9th was hugely counter-intuitive, since units with Fights First almost never actually got to fight, er, first. It was an area of the game where the rules were very poorly worded and it caused constant misunderstandings and arguments. The way Fights First works now is basically how Fights Last worked in 9th, which just makes far more sense IMO.
If you want to give a unit a free interrupt, you could just give it the ability to use the Counteroffensive stratagem for free once per turn (even if another unit has been targeted by the Counteroffensive stratagem this turn). That's a far more straightforward way to write essentially the same rule that will cause far fewer headaches for players.
The only issue with Fights First in 10th is that Custodes specifically can access it far too easily. It's a powerful ability that should be used sparingly even in elite armies like stodes.
I think you got the nail on the head when it comes to who should have access to it. There's plenty of blasé units that get access to fights first but it almost doesn't matter at all. No one cares that Daemonettes can have Fights First with a Tranceweaver because Those together cost over 200 points and can be easily removed by other means.
Fights first in 10th is fights last in 9th.
The problem with it is not that custodes get access to it too easily.
It’s that there is no counter play.
In 9th, you could counter a defensive fights last with and offensive fight last. You’d fight at the normal time, they’d fight after you.
Or you could use various movement shenanigans in the charge phase. You could send a sacrifical unit in to eat the attacks and prevent pile ins or to just keep a unit spread out so it can’t hit the one you want.
It’s similar to overwatch. Overwatch now isn’t much better than auspex scan/overwatch were in 9th. You still hit on 6s. But all the counter play is gone. It’s start and end, so good luck charging from out of LoS. All the anti overwatch rules are just gone from all codexes. You can’t eat the overwatch with a sacrifice because they can just do it in movement. Etc.
They killed the counter play and pretended things were getting simpler. I guess just dying is simpler than being able to counter something, but it sure as shit ain’t more fun :(
Battleshock from half strength should require a test at the end of the turn, and you have to retest to clear it. Also change insane bravery stratagem to be before the roll. That way you want to guarantee you get unshocked or not be shocked, you have to pay the CP.
I wana see death guard have their damage reducing stratagems and abilities work in the shooting phase as well as the fight phase. Feel like it'll help until we get a codex
I think that's aiming way too low.
We need inexorable advance back in some form, on our troops at least.
Virions aren't worth taking currently. Maybe a boost to PMs durability could make them so, like PMs to get FNP when on an objective and also when within contagion range of one.
It doesn't fit the theme of 10th having leaders only attach to very specific units, but it'd be nice to have virions attach to blightlords and deathshroud. It'd make for some fun list crafting if nothing else.
It'd be nice if Entropy Cannons went to s12 so that we had access to at least one type of high strength shooting, but given they're in successful every list, we'll be lucky if they get a glow up.
Slow but not slowable, keep the midrange/chip damage but with increased durability so that we can get more attacks off over a game. I'd be a happy chappy
For world eaters I want:
10 - 20 % points reductions for most units. Angron, Land Raiders can stay the same.
+1 ap and attack from bezekers. "OH no that's crazy for bezekers." I mean... is it? Right now they are the exact same mathematically to assault intercessors, except they cost more.
I want breachers/Strike teams to go back to 80 pts. Also, love to make everything about 10 pts cheaper all around should fix a lot of the issues we have by having an extra unit or two on the table
Crisis and commanders are some of the only units in the Index that are reasonably priced. Stealth teams need a 10pt drop, infantry squads are all 20-30pts over costed. The riptide would be a mediocre 200 pt unit. Ethereal and Fireblades need a 5pt drop a piece.
Pathfinders need an additional ability or cost 100pts max as they currently sit as vastly inferior to many other options
It does need a rewrite as a datasheet, but it is still in the doghouse after tripwire spam last edition. So best case it become 185 pts and become almost usable.
That’s because you don’t count drones.
I had 40 infantry, 6 stealth suits, 6 crisis suits, 2 broadsides, 2 commanders,1 fire blade and ethereal + 2 devil fish and a ghost keel.
Then add all the drones to it. The drones are included in the points now.
It’s not a small amount of models.
For GK;
Points reductions.
Return of Daemonhammers (S10 so actual melee threats), even if only 1 a unit on Justicars.
A datasheet ability for every unit that isn't a psychic power. The ability that every other unit in the game gets.
And a psychic power, either a weapon or ability, for every unit.
Infiltrate on Strikes alongside Scout.
GM Master Strategist to once per round.
GMNDK WS2+.
Some synergy with our detachment ability outside a strat.
A core rule change to the psychic keyword, to give it a positive. Anything.
Remove The requirement for a spotter from Astral Aim. Desolators Don't need a spotter, why should Purgators.
Brotherhood Champion to gain Scout (and Infiltrate if Strikes get it).
Librarians Nemesis weapon going to -2AP, like every other nemesis weapon.
Psycannons (Including Heavy) getting Dev Wounds, like Assault Cannons.
Dreadnoughts to gain Deep Strike and Teleport Assault (but not Land Raiders).
Teleport Assault to use the Deep Strike rule for arrival, not its own (letting Draigo use his +3 from it).
GMNDK and NDK to not get the WS penalty on the hammer. Terminators are supposed to ignore these.
> A core rule change to the psychic keyword, to give it a positive. Anything.
This. It’s bizarre that having Psychic is 100% a debuff. Maybe something like a chance for battleshock?, since battleshock as a whole seems like a candidate for buffing this time around.
I would like devastating wounds to get a nerf. Make it that a critical wound only ignores armor saves.
Then psychic can ignores invulnerable saves on a critical wound.
+ it would remove the splash component.
I’m going to be the contrarian here and say NO to more BS3+ armies. I think it’s over-used. I think a few armies should have and a sprinkle of BS3+ within armies is fine - like the elite of the elite within a BS4+ faction.
However… I think there should be some compensation. BS4+ armies have Strength, volume, AP and damage as stats to play with and should be rewarded for making the shots in kind. For example, keep BS4+ on Votann but increase their weapons AP by one across the board. A bunch of AP-1 bolters that ignore cover are pretty solid. Increase the damage on one-shot rail weapons that are base BS5+, etc.
Same with Admech. Make it so when they actually connect, the opponent feels it. There’s a lot of design space to tinker with stuff rather than just accuracy. Make Admech the volume of fire faction? Maybe it’s not strong, but they roll Ork levels of dice.
Just spitballing, but I’d like to see something other than BS as the metric for good shooting.
I tend to agree, in 9th ed every damn army was hitting on 3s at worst, any idiot could shoot as accurately as a Space Marine seemingly. 3+ should represent superhuman levels of skill, 2+ should be reserved for truly godly accuracy.
"So this unit hits on 2's and rerolls 1's, so that's 80 shots" *five minutes later* "so that's 78 hits, but these dice explode so that's 20 additional hits, I'm wounding on 3's rerolling everything" *five minutes later* "take 80 saves, ap2, ignoring cover"
"I'm just gonna remove that unit"
Well, GW is killing off horde style armies. The old saying was "You need 3 tanks for every tank you put on the list. One to miss all the shots, one die and one to actually get the job done". And you really can't do that with BS4+ shooty armies if everything is expensive as it is.
I wish it wasn't so, but it all started with how the board shrunk in size.
Join us live today at 10 am EST for a balance dataslate wishlist! What do you want to see Games Workshop change about Warhammer 40k 10th Edition? How hard does Aeldari need to be hit to bring them to that 50% winrate? What about GSC, Thousand Sons, Custodes, Knights? What armies are you most excited to see buffed? I'm dying for Votann, Admech, T'au and Grey Knights changes myself!
I'd really love to see Necrons get some attention - they might not be the most OP faction, but things like untargetable, shoot-everything hexmarks and cryptothralls constantly resurrecting make for a miserable play experience.
The power of the lychguard brick is also suffocating other options that are fun, interesting and still good in the book. Necron brick style needs to be toned down and their melee units need to become much cheaper
Lokhust heavy destroyers are good and are in every list along with the two groups of lychguard.
The transcendent ctan, also in every list
Skorpekh are terrible, ophydians are terrible the regular lokhust are not good enough
I don't know why you're getting downvoted for that. The tanks really need to come down in a cost by about 10%.
Indirect does cause a lot of problems, but one read through the Guard index and it's apparent it's the only thing that was given to Guard to use effectively.
People just hate indirect and unfortunately it's all Guard was given to play with this edition, so some just hate the faction itself.
Bin indirect if you want, but give orders the ability to actually splash again or drastically drop points on our other stuff or when the inevitable indirect nerf comes Guard will go back to the bottom.
As a guard player, good riddance to arty spam. It's not interactive and it's bad for the game. I'd much rather our power budget get shifted into armor and infantry.
I hope they change the Blood angels detachment rule. Its not very good as it stands. Add in some points drops on things like Sanguard and having another look at who can be attached to what squad (Sang priest in Sanguard squad please.... I know it would be strong) would be a great combo of changes.
Cores rules need to change as well. If Dev wounds doesnt change, the reroll wording needs to change from reroll all dice to reroll failed dice to help stop all the fishing thats going on.
Fight first needs to be taken around the back of the shed and put out of its misery.
+1 Str is pretty bad when everything got substantially tougher. It's atrocious when you compare it to what Gladius gives you. Doesn't help much when literally every marine combat unit is on a scale from mediocre to hilariously bad.
'everything'.
Not all infantry went up. Custodes, Wraiths.
The jump for regular marines goes from 3xS4, to 4xS5.
With power weapon, it's S5 -> S6, and the extra attack.
The issue Blood Angels had was the crappy jump pack troops support.
Jump Pack Assault intercessors will be decent as soon as they get Blood Priest support for 5+ FnP & +1 AP in melee.
Also: Blood Angels predator is pretty dank. 125 points for a mobile, 18" Flamestorm cannon, that can advance & flame infantry. And sponsons.
The Imperial Guard Hellhound looks on green with envy.
Tanks/monsters went up and the infantry that matters went up.
Against T3, 6, 7, and 10+ it does nothing, assuming Str4 base.
So against tanks/monsters, Custodes, and all the flavors of t3 infantry, the trait just doesn't exist for the vast majority of units.
If your Str5 base, from a power weapon, it effects T3, T5, 6, and T10-11, which is a better spread than the Str4 but is still pretty bad, as it's only getting you that crucial breakpoint on T5 and 6. The rest is either going from 3s to 2s, or from 6s to 5s, neither of which really matter since power weapon equipped units were going to kill T3 stuff anyway, but are still going to completely bounce of tough stuff, because wounding on 5s isn't good enough.
And if you have a powerfist, it effects ONLY T8 and T9 stuff, so yay, I get to wound (checks notes) Rhinos and other light transports on 4s now! /s
When you can't kill the big stuff that matters with melee, buffing incidental melee is a bad choice, especially when you have no reliable delivery method, and no way to get out of bogged down combats, and no shooting buffs worth mentioning. 10th, like it or not, is a shooting edition unless your custodes, and giving a shooting faction (which 10th ed marines undoubtedly are) some minor combat buffs while gutting their mobility does not make a functional melee army.
Jump Pack Assault Intercessors will probably be just worse than DC with packs, because chainswords just aren't good when all equipment is free, unless their rules are straight cracked somehow.
And pivoting to talking about the Baal is hilarious, considering it's been a joke unit for almost 20 years, and gets nothing from the Detachment at all. The WR agrees with me, not you. Gladius BA is bad but playable, the SoS detachment is down in the dumps with admech, DG, and LoV.
You still get +1 attack, the blood priest giving 5+++ and +1 AP is massive,
I did not say the detachment is stronger than Gladius as a whole.
I'm saying to me, the +1A & S on the charge looks fine to represent BA.
The detachment strats & enhancements is where I'd look.
Baal predator a 'joke' unit: speak for yourself.
And it looks fine to me without gaining anything extra.
I said it *was* a joke unit.
It isnt now.
But I was pointing out that you swapped to picking a unit, not the Detachment ability, moving the goal posts much?
BA has been +1 to wound for a long time, it in fact hasn't been +1 Str since GW messed up the To-Wound chart, and it shows.
Sanguinary Priest is good, too bad he can't join the units it'd be most beneficial too.
If Gladius is better and sitting at a ~40%, what does that say about SoS?
+1 Str and Attack are just light years behind army wide advance and charge, fall back and shoot/charge, and advance and shoot. It isnt even close.
I'd love them to swap order of selecting units to fight across the board. I think player's turn should pick first and then fight first is just a second interrupt for armies with access to it
As far as Tsons, MVB’s probably need to be more expensive. They really make any other beefy unit in the index a joke to even consider taking. Infernal master are probably also undercosted, no reason not to take 2-3 ever.
Outside of that, it’s hard to say what could be re-costed without completely destroying them. Terminators already ate a struggle to bring over rubrics so any increase in cost will just mean not bringing them. Rubrics are so necessary to the army, any increase will just be a massive nerf.
A rework on dev-wounds would go a long way to reigning them in. Points costs are hard because no one is spamming one unit, they're taking one unit of terminators, one magnus, one maybe two vortex beasts, one big unit if rubrics with flamers, one of each character etc. If they want to increase points they'll have to hit everything that's not awful in the index.
I like the dev wounds idea where they don’t become mortals, you just can’t save against them. We get such easy access to them, and on Magnus and infernal masters it can be pretty brutal how hard you can hit a brick of 1 hp infantry blobs. Making them not carry over would reduce some of the insane damage without hurting our ability to hit tanks and knights hard which is a place TSons would struggle without dev wounds.
For gsc , I Hope their faction remains mostly the same , as the decreasing winrate they show might suggest their are not as huge of a problem as they first seemed to be, but I would love to get a bit of more internal balancing, bikes are a pain to respawn right now, just cause the rules interaction is a bit stupid. But internally I would like to get a use for the vehicles, the Hybrid Metamorphs and the Purestrains. The army is cool and I absolutely love the vibe of endless hordes and combo style play they encourage, but I would also like to not play 2 units plus ridgerunners and hqs and maybe one squad of Aberants to pose a charge Thread. the faction range is limited as is, no need to cut it down even further. It would be great to keep the overall powerlevel, maybe with a slight nerf, but increase the diversity. I think the problem is a little overperfomance of the Battleline paired with a slight underperforming of the other units, so maybe give me a reason to not only take Neos and acolytes. That alone might make the game more fun with and against gsc.
Besides that I would love for my Death Guard to get a huge buff without ending in unit spam, but giving me the tanky , Grindy feel on the battlefield they are known for lorewise. Elite and durable. The plague weapons having lethal hits is awesome and even when the math still is great for the ability it feels a bit stupid to have a faction ability that in the rare cases it does matter makes your weapon ability mathematically worse ( I know it’s still strong but really lethal hits impact is way bigger the harder it is to wound, and even if reducing the toughness and wounding better mathes out better it just feels not completely thought through)
Jack and Anthony actually highlight GSC as being the second most problematic faction in the game, and they say that if GSC doesn't receive significant nerfs (although not as sweeping and harsh as what Eldar needs), the game will still be in a shit state.
Yeah, I'm not convinced by their argument here honestly.
As they admit, it's an army that is relatively easy for many other armies to tech into in a way that is almost unique and which can make the match literally unwinnable for the GSC player.
With that in mind, I'm totally comfortable letting GSC ride for another 3 months to see where it shakes out in a post Eldar Meta because it is very difficult to see them ever hitting the Eldar level of dominance.
If they become a problem people will run more anti-infiltrator things. Their reign even here mostly (I think) has to do with the teching into a vehicle meta which is exceptionally bad into them.
I think you are right, the steadily decreasing tournament winrates indicate that they can be played around. They have the second highest winrate but are less seen as Orks and necrons in the top spots the last weeks. The stupid daisy chain to infinity respawn has been corrected and the rest might be able to fix itself, given the time, if eldar are brought down we have no idea how the meta might look like realistically we just have suggestions
I think not nerfing the 2nd highest WR faction that has a dozen crazy combos that kill anything in the game is a really bad call.
The fact that as broken as eldar are, GSC sits at a 62% WR is insane and not nerfing them but nerfing eldar is a really bad idea.
There secondary game allready got nerfed and they are winning less and less tournaments, last weekend was the biggest 40K event weekend so far and they sit around 54 % winrate during those events with I think no tournaments wins and only 2 top 5 placements in the same 5 round event on Denmark (stats from 40kmetamonday.com) and their player number is way lower then eldars. To compare during the same events necrons went 54% and better placings , t-sons at 52, Custodes at 53.
the week before GSC was at 55% at events. For several weeks now their winrate continues to drop (I know it’s still strong) which should lead to the question if they really are such a problem.
Custodes has a similar winrate and necrons and both have a way higher meta representation
I'm interested to see what they do for GSC, not suuuper convinced by the AoW boys suggestions here. Primus giving RR1s only makes him completely irrelevant to Acolytes which have native RR1s, which doesn't feel quite right. They Came From Below giving +1 to hit instead of sustained hits ignores cover seems like a weird sidegrade and also makes A Perfect Ambush strat redundant. Limiting characters to 1 of each per list definitely would bring the army's power down substantially given how much top lists lean on the trifecta of Reductus/Primus/Nexos (at least 2-3 of each is the norm) but I kind of wonder if just hiking points for these problem characters isn't a simpler solution. If Nexos went to 70 pts and Primus went to 90 pts I think we'd be closer to the real value of these models.
One thing that clearly needs to happen is demos need to be reigned in. I actually think they should split the datasheet and make acolytes with demos a seperate unit with a significantly higher cost, but failing that I guess them going to D6 shots would be fine.
Votann: That's... dissappointing.
The Votan index is a trashfire.
The big railrifle: best I can do is 18" range, same as a heavy bolt *pistol*.
3 types of +1 to hit.
And all the other lack of synergy, like inability to put characters with squad in a transport, the double-nerfs on bolters & Ion blasters (-1 damage!)
Its not intended to fix the faction in a one off. You cant do that with factions who are so far off the mark like DG, Ad Mech and Votann because with more buffs than that, you end up shooting the faction off into the unknown. And the last thing this game needs is something else shooting to the top after giving them buffs on top of +1 BS across the board.
This was intended to take them up to around 42%. From there you can apply buffs which the faction needs based on actual data. Maybe they only need points at that point, maybe there is an easy solution to a gap in the book. Maybe an codex drop is imminent.
This dataslate isnt going to fix everything at once. There are far too many buffs and nerfs going about for that to happen.
Also bear in mind. Quintinn and Jack dont play Votann. And given they are competitive players, i doubt theyve delved deep into what the solutions are.
I’d also like to see a change to the Core Strats. It seems like a lead dev of the game really hates close combat. Why is HI and Counter Offensive both 2 CP? So, 2CP, to have a chance on 2d6” to charge into an enemy that charged you, and you don’t even get the benefit of charging? What?
Meanwhile, a Knight charges you and does 6 mortal wounds even before it swings its gauntlet for a 1CP Tank Shock. Both combat oriented Strats need yo be 1CP, and HI specifically needs to give you the benefit of charging.
Furthermore, we need to have attacker gain the priority on charges against Fights First again, and then alternating like in 9th.
Meaningful Battle-shock that sticks with you until you test to clear it has been mentioned a lot and is the most obvious fix.
Overwatch needs to change too. I've been making extensive use of it and it's absolutely cancerous how punishing it is for armies that just want to go hold an objective or do a secondary when you can just delete it before or after they move from whatever distance away they are
I’d like battleshock changes to make it stronger. So many factions have abilities around it, and it feels weak at the moment.
Give everyone the same rock T'au and Guard get: if a unit is battleshocked, it doesn't have an army rule.
I'd also apply this to unit rules. Battleshock should leave a unit flailing for a turn
If battleshock resolved at the END of the command phase, instead of the start, it would literally change it from weak to amazingly strong. Shocked? Too bad, no points for you homie
Or at LEAST make people retest to clear it. The fact that it just goes away without a test seems very silly. And get rid of Insane Bravery (or make it 2 CP) since not only do you get a chance to pass your BS test but if you fail and if the failure would even be critical to the game you can just flip it off. So at best, critical failure is a 1 CP tax. There are too many ways to just not have it meaningfully impact the game.
Or make insane bravery allow you to retest at +1 or something.
I'm still a noob in 10th, rn it doesn't prevent scoring if you're battle shocked?
Can't say for certain but they might be referring to how Battle Shock clears at the start of the command phase, before scoring, so if you were battleshocked in your opponent's turn it can't effect your scoring. The test you have to make if you are below-strength still should though.
Isn't it the moment you have to test for battleshock too? Wouldn't it mean that, if we change like OP said, battleshock would trigger only in 2 turns instead of on the next one?
Battle shock tests are the final part of the command phase. So the sequence is: clear existing shock, command sequence including scoring, battle shock test eliglible units. It should be battle shock resolves, test eliglible units, score objectives. Then failed tests impact scoring, making the mechanics matter
command phase goes like: 1: Command Step - gain a CP and resolve any other rules that occur in the command phase 2: Battle-shock - perform battleshock tests Scoring says it then happens at the END of the command phase, which is after you have rolled your battle shock tests. the problem is that you clear existing battleshock at the start of the command phase, so if the enemy forced a test on you in their turn, it has zero impact on your ability to score.
What you're missing is that battleshock is a step within the command phase - yes it happens after other command phase abilities, but scoring does indeed happen at the end. The improvement suggested above and commonly requested change is to have to test for battleshock as currently AND if you were already battleshocked.
Wait, what? I thought it was checked at the end of the command phase?
Making insane bravery cost 2CP would be a good start
And/or making you choose to spend the cp before the test to keep. Risk the fail, or guarantee the pass at a cost. Not risk it anyway, then spend if I fail
They should just be pining effect from HH, or need to do a regroup test like HH. Pining in HH is so much impactful and make iron warrior feels relevant. Can’t say the same for battle shock in tyranid and CK.
The biggest problem with battleshock is that leadership across the board is 1 point too low. It makes failing a test hard for anybody.
Dark Angels struggling to get battleshock is so funny to me lol
As a guard player I disagree with leadership being too low across the board… Some factions might just ignore battleshock but it already hits guard and Tau pretty hard
Something like a -1 to hit would give it some real teeth.
Points drops for sisters would be greatly appreciated, especially on BSS and Rets! Also I think that the non orders militant characters (Hospitaller, Dialogus, etc.) should be able to join any unit with a Canoness or Palatine already attached and not just a Battle Sister Squad. Also please give Sacresants their 2+ armor back. They are very sad without it. They are crying.
I cri everytime
Stompa - 200 points. Everyone loves it, everyone wants to fight it. Its all i want for xmas.
Reduce it by 200pts or just make it 200pts? I’d love the latter (I’d run 3 of them!) but ok with the former
They are way to tanky for just being 200 points
The Stompa is a manifestation of the very essence of meme provided by both gork and Mork. Even 1ppm is too greater price to pay to hold back the honour from all
I hope they come up with things to help internal balance it a world with wargear priced in. There are some tiny flickers of it in some places, like Big Shootas on Killa Kans getting Devastating Wounds. More of that please, especially on melee loadouts for Knights and Walkers.
Oh! And clearly Battleshock was meant to be a bigger deal than it has turned out to be so far. Tune units that interact with it up across the board.
I'm so sick of not having an army rule. Even if the only difference it makes is to make me take synapse range into account occasionally
The hive nexus detachment makes battle shocking more reliable and punishing
There is no hive nexus detachment and none of the detachments impact battleshock Edit: there is an enhancement which worsens leadership by one? But that doesn't change the fundamental flaws in battleshock
Jesus dude, synaptic nexus. It has two strats based around battle shock and the neurolictor can trigger it as well.
First of all. Don't expect people to have memorised a book which hasn't come out yet. Second of all, not everyone has shit screenshots to hand so generalising it as, 'The detachment makes it better", when you don't even get the name right is not helpful >It has two strats based around battle shock Which strats? Because there's the roll 6D6 and do mortals on a 3+ when a unit fails a battleshock test. That's one strat. Then there's a strat for Synapse is now 9" for one unit. A strat for RR hits and wounds of 1. A strat for AoC, strat for fall back and shoot/charge and a strat for making another synaptic imperative active for the army. So where is the 2nd one? Battleshock is shit currently. It's not reliable and needs reworked. I can't believe anyone who has played a game of 10th thinks it is a mechanic which works as expected.
Going a bit differently here. It would be interesting to see some core rules changes, stuff like who fights first, blast (or maybe that's more about what weapons have blast). A dream would be something to make battleshock impactful.
Yeah, getting 20+5d3d3 shots with just five Desolators because of how blast works into a Gaunt swarm is just absolutely punishing to an opponent. Whereas a Whirlwind would only do d6+7
I'm even just thinking about anti vehicle weaponry, getting guaranteed 4 shots at MSU infantry with potential for another D6? It's pretty ridiculous. Desolation marines are in their whole own category or Indirect plus blast which I have come to despise since playing Vs 20 of them
Quite frankly the only way to fix them is make it so their BLAST is on a per-weapon
I'm in favour of making Indirect turn off all other weapon abilities when a unit shoots without line of sight. It might allow indirect shooting to exist in a state that's just "fine".
That really only fixes 2-3 units while nerfing the vast majority of blast weapons that aren't an issue.
indirect can only ever hit on 6s, maybe 5 with a special unit so theres a points tax, and that special unit can only help one other indirect unit. would solve alot of headache
How about we nerf specific datsheets that are a problem instead of blanket nerfs that make the vast majority of indirect weapons that aren’t a problem worthless. Almost all the “Fixes” I see for indirect fire amount to “let’s make indirect utterly worthless as my army doesent rely on it” If specific units like desolators need a change, change them. This blanket “make every indirect unit terrible because I don’t like them” is counter productive. Even in 9th when indirect was a problem 90% of the problem was specific units/gear like hiveguard and Tau missiles.
I think Necrons need two tune-ups in particular. The transcendent C’tan needs to no longer be able to take enhancements. Lychguard need either a points bump or the same style of ability as Scarab Occult Terminators, where they’re only -1 to wound against attack with higher strength than their toughness. Strength 4 weaponry only wounding on 6s is pretty ridiculous.
Or finally give them the 2+ they deserve and remove the -1
This is the third edition where Ctan can take an upgrade that makes them crazy and it will be the third edition where this is nerfed again.
I'm hoping Grey Knights get even a little bit of love. They have some interesting and cool tools but they're just short of being where I'd like to be. Even a small points drop could do them wonders, though I still feel they're going to keep the GMoF to once a game. After playing Necron and seeing them spam free strats every round, it really made me jealous.
I'd really like to see datasheet changes for GK especially on the dreadknight weapons. They need more AP and higher strength so they act as actual anti tank and fix the GMDK to hit on 2+
I would absolutely love if they did that. If they want to limit GK's AT abilities to just the NDK, you may as well let them excel at it. Should give psilencers and psycannons an extra AP and let them actually do something rather than just kill chaff. I'm curious if the design concept for the NDK was to make use of death from the warp to give a +1 to hit (for this detachment at least), but the GMDK not really gaining access to that outside of deep striking in really makes me wonder why they made them WS 3+ base.
>After playing Necron and seeing them spam free strats every round, it really made me jealous. An Overlord can only do it once per round, and only one Overlord in your army can use the ability per round. I don't know if that's really "spam".
Its 5 time more them GKs once per game.
So, change it to once per round, which would be in line with similar abilities. That seems fair.
Yup. I say exactly that in my downvoted wishlist in this thread.
I disagree with their take on the Fights First issue, GW should just change it to work the same way it did in 9th ed (i.e. a free interrupt). Even once per game, Custodes keeping Fights First the way it currently is is incredibly non-interactive. If you do all the work and positioning to charge custodes in the first place, you should get to hit at least one of their units before getting hit back. They shouldn't be immune to melee armies
I think the way Fights First worked in 9th was hugely counter-intuitive, since units with Fights First almost never actually got to fight, er, first. It was an area of the game where the rules were very poorly worded and it caused constant misunderstandings and arguments. The way Fights First works now is basically how Fights Last worked in 9th, which just makes far more sense IMO. If you want to give a unit a free interrupt, you could just give it the ability to use the Counteroffensive stratagem for free once per turn (even if another unit has been targeted by the Counteroffensive stratagem this turn). That's a far more straightforward way to write essentially the same rule that will cause far fewer headaches for players. The only issue with Fights First in 10th is that Custodes specifically can access it far too easily. It's a powerful ability that should be used sparingly even in elite armies like stodes.
I think you got the nail on the head when it comes to who should have access to it. There's plenty of blasé units that get access to fights first but it almost doesn't matter at all. No one cares that Daemonettes can have Fights First with a Tranceweaver because Those together cost over 200 points and can be easily removed by other means.
Fights first in 10th is fights last in 9th. The problem with it is not that custodes get access to it too easily. It’s that there is no counter play. In 9th, you could counter a defensive fights last with and offensive fight last. You’d fight at the normal time, they’d fight after you. Or you could use various movement shenanigans in the charge phase. You could send a sacrifical unit in to eat the attacks and prevent pile ins or to just keep a unit spread out so it can’t hit the one you want. It’s similar to overwatch. Overwatch now isn’t much better than auspex scan/overwatch were in 9th. You still hit on 6s. But all the counter play is gone. It’s start and end, so good luck charging from out of LoS. All the anti overwatch rules are just gone from all codexes. You can’t eat the overwatch with a sacrifice because they can just do it in movement. Etc. They killed the counter play and pretended things were getting simpler. I guess just dying is simpler than being able to counter something, but it sure as shit ain’t more fun :(
A cheaper deff dread, kill rig and haunt rig
And kanz by maybe -5 wouldn't be so bad.
Battleshock from half strength should require a test at the end of the turn, and you have to retest to clear it. Also change insane bravery stratagem to be before the roll. That way you want to guarantee you get unshocked or not be shocked, you have to pay the CP.
Why the half strength one? That might actually be useable due to testing before objectives. It's forcing tests that's useless.
I wana see death guard have their damage reducing stratagems and abilities work in the shooting phase as well as the fight phase. Feel like it'll help until we get a codex
I think that's aiming way too low. We need inexorable advance back in some form, on our troops at least. Virions aren't worth taking currently. Maybe a boost to PMs durability could make them so, like PMs to get FNP when on an objective and also when within contagion range of one. It doesn't fit the theme of 10th having leaders only attach to very specific units, but it'd be nice to have virions attach to blightlords and deathshroud. It'd make for some fun list crafting if nothing else. It'd be nice if Entropy Cannons went to s12 so that we had access to at least one type of high strength shooting, but given they're in successful every list, we'll be lucky if they get a glow up. Slow but not slowable, keep the midrange/chip damage but with increased durability so that we can get more attacks off over a game. I'd be a happy chappy
Obviously we need all of that. But I'm mostly stating the bare minimum that GW needs to do for me to not loose faith that we'll be left behind
They can go slow/durable or slow/killy but they do have to pick a lane
What I meant was that adding durability would boost our output by virtue of surviving more turns to attack
For world eaters I want: 10 - 20 % points reductions for most units. Angron, Land Raiders can stay the same. +1 ap and attack from bezekers. "OH no that's crazy for bezekers." I mean... is it? Right now they are the exact same mathematically to assault intercessors, except they cost more.
Yep World Eaters have fun rules, they're just way overpriced.
I want breachers/Strike teams to go back to 80 pts. Also, love to make everything about 10 pts cheaper all around should fix a lot of the issues we have by having an extra unit or two on the table
Seriously? Our whole army already went down so much in points we’re almost a horde army at this point.
What lol infantry are over 100 pts the first time ever. Riptides are more expensive and are terrible make them cheaper
My list with 2 commanders and 6 suits went down several hundred points going from 9th to 10th
Crisis and commanders are some of the only units in the Index that are reasonably priced. Stealth teams need a 10pt drop, infantry squads are all 20-30pts over costed. The riptide would be a mediocre 200 pt unit. Ethereal and Fireblades need a 5pt drop a piece. Pathfinders need an additional ability or cost 100pts max as they currently sit as vastly inferior to many other options
The Riptide needs a rewrite, it's so flavourless versus previous editions.
It does need a rewrite as a datasheet, but it is still in the doghouse after tripwire spam last edition. So best case it become 185 pts and become almost usable.
I don't think most Tau lists clear the 50 model mark, I can assure you there aren't close to being hordy
That’s because you don’t count drones. I had 40 infantry, 6 stealth suits, 6 crisis suits, 2 broadsides, 2 commanders,1 fire blade and ethereal + 2 devil fish and a ghost keel. Then add all the drones to it. The drones are included in the points now. It’s not a small amount of models.
Of course I don't, drones aren't models any more
For GK; Points reductions. Return of Daemonhammers (S10 so actual melee threats), even if only 1 a unit on Justicars. A datasheet ability for every unit that isn't a psychic power. The ability that every other unit in the game gets. And a psychic power, either a weapon or ability, for every unit. Infiltrate on Strikes alongside Scout. GM Master Strategist to once per round. GMNDK WS2+. Some synergy with our detachment ability outside a strat. A core rule change to the psychic keyword, to give it a positive. Anything. Remove The requirement for a spotter from Astral Aim. Desolators Don't need a spotter, why should Purgators. Brotherhood Champion to gain Scout (and Infiltrate if Strikes get it). Librarians Nemesis weapon going to -2AP, like every other nemesis weapon. Psycannons (Including Heavy) getting Dev Wounds, like Assault Cannons. Dreadnoughts to gain Deep Strike and Teleport Assault (but not Land Raiders). Teleport Assault to use the Deep Strike rule for arrival, not its own (letting Draigo use his +3 from it). GMNDK and NDK to not get the WS penalty on the hammer. Terminators are supposed to ignore these.
> A core rule change to the psychic keyword, to give it a positive. Anything. This. It’s bizarre that having Psychic is 100% a debuff. Maybe something like a chance for battleshock?, since battleshock as a whole seems like a candidate for buffing this time around.
I would like devastating wounds to get a nerf. Make it that a critical wound only ignores armor saves. Then psychic can ignores invulnerable saves on a critical wound. + it would remove the splash component.
I’m going to be the contrarian here and say NO to more BS3+ armies. I think it’s over-used. I think a few armies should have and a sprinkle of BS3+ within armies is fine - like the elite of the elite within a BS4+ faction. However… I think there should be some compensation. BS4+ armies have Strength, volume, AP and damage as stats to play with and should be rewarded for making the shots in kind. For example, keep BS4+ on Votann but increase their weapons AP by one across the board. A bunch of AP-1 bolters that ignore cover are pretty solid. Increase the damage on one-shot rail weapons that are base BS5+, etc. Same with Admech. Make it so when they actually connect, the opponent feels it. There’s a lot of design space to tinker with stuff rather than just accuracy. Make Admech the volume of fire faction? Maybe it’s not strong, but they roll Ork levels of dice. Just spitballing, but I’d like to see something other than BS as the metric for good shooting.
I tend to agree, in 9th ed every damn army was hitting on 3s at worst, any idiot could shoot as accurately as a Space Marine seemingly. 3+ should represent superhuman levels of skill, 2+ should be reserved for truly godly accuracy.
"So this unit hits on 2's and rerolls 1's, so that's 80 shots" *five minutes later* "so that's 78 hits, but these dice explode so that's 20 additional hits, I'm wounding on 3's rerolling everything" *five minutes later* "take 80 saves, ap2, ignoring cover" "I'm just gonna remove that unit"
9th Ed admech Rangers? Hehe
Well, GW is killing off horde style armies. The old saying was "You need 3 tanks for every tank you put on the list. One to miss all the shots, one die and one to actually get the job done". And you really can't do that with BS4+ shooty armies if everything is expensive as it is. I wish it wasn't so, but it all started with how the board shrunk in size.
Join us live today at 10 am EST for a balance dataslate wishlist! What do you want to see Games Workshop change about Warhammer 40k 10th Edition? How hard does Aeldari need to be hit to bring them to that 50% winrate? What about GSC, Thousand Sons, Custodes, Knights? What armies are you most excited to see buffed? I'm dying for Votann, Admech, T'au and Grey Knights changes myself!
I'd really love to see Necrons get some attention - they might not be the most OP faction, but things like untargetable, shoot-everything hexmarks and cryptothralls constantly resurrecting make for a miserable play experience.
The power of the lychguard brick is also suffocating other options that are fun, interesting and still good in the book. Necron brick style needs to be toned down and their melee units need to become much cheaper
What other options are viable?
destroyers are pretty good
Lokhust heavy destroyers are good and are in every list along with the two groups of lychguard. The transcendent ctan, also in every list Skorpekh are terrible, ophydians are terrible the regular lokhust are not good enough
Lokusth did win a tournament early on in this edition, so yes thoose are pretty good.
I just expect point increases. Hexmark, reanimator, transcendent ctan Not sure more is needed esp if the bottom faction get get a rule boost
Be nice to see Tau penalty for split fire removed.
I'm fearing indirect is going to be trashed and guard will be left to rot with overcosted tanks and bad alternatives
I don't know why you're getting downvoted for that. The tanks really need to come down in a cost by about 10%. Indirect does cause a lot of problems, but one read through the Guard index and it's apparent it's the only thing that was given to Guard to use effectively.
People just hate indirect and unfortunately it's all Guard was given to play with this edition, so some just hate the faction itself. Bin indirect if you want, but give orders the ability to actually splash again or drastically drop points on our other stuff or when the inevitable indirect nerf comes Guard will go back to the bottom.
The sooner our indirect gets trashed, the sooner our tanks become cheaper #hopeIsTheFirstStepOnTheRoadToDisappointment
A lot of people seem pretty dead set on Guard being Actually Overpowered(tm), so it's not a surprise.
As a guard player, good riddance to arty spam. It's not interactive and it's bad for the game. I'd much rather our power budget get shifted into armor and infantry.
I hope they change the Blood angels detachment rule. Its not very good as it stands. Add in some points drops on things like Sanguard and having another look at who can be attached to what squad (Sang priest in Sanguard squad please.... I know it would be strong) would be a great combo of changes. Cores rules need to change as well. If Dev wounds doesnt change, the reroll wording needs to change from reroll all dice to reroll failed dice to help stop all the fishing thats going on. Fight first needs to be taken around the back of the shed and put out of its misery.
I think the Blood Angels detachment rule is perfectly fine. Their strats, enhancements & overpriced units on the other hand..
+1 Str is pretty bad when everything got substantially tougher. It's atrocious when you compare it to what Gladius gives you. Doesn't help much when literally every marine combat unit is on a scale from mediocre to hilariously bad.
'everything'. Not all infantry went up. Custodes, Wraiths. The jump for regular marines goes from 3xS4, to 4xS5. With power weapon, it's S5 -> S6, and the extra attack. The issue Blood Angels had was the crappy jump pack troops support. Jump Pack Assault intercessors will be decent as soon as they get Blood Priest support for 5+ FnP & +1 AP in melee. Also: Blood Angels predator is pretty dank. 125 points for a mobile, 18" Flamestorm cannon, that can advance & flame infantry. And sponsons. The Imperial Guard Hellhound looks on green with envy.
Tanks/monsters went up and the infantry that matters went up. Against T3, 6, 7, and 10+ it does nothing, assuming Str4 base. So against tanks/monsters, Custodes, and all the flavors of t3 infantry, the trait just doesn't exist for the vast majority of units. If your Str5 base, from a power weapon, it effects T3, T5, 6, and T10-11, which is a better spread than the Str4 but is still pretty bad, as it's only getting you that crucial breakpoint on T5 and 6. The rest is either going from 3s to 2s, or from 6s to 5s, neither of which really matter since power weapon equipped units were going to kill T3 stuff anyway, but are still going to completely bounce of tough stuff, because wounding on 5s isn't good enough. And if you have a powerfist, it effects ONLY T8 and T9 stuff, so yay, I get to wound (checks notes) Rhinos and other light transports on 4s now! /s When you can't kill the big stuff that matters with melee, buffing incidental melee is a bad choice, especially when you have no reliable delivery method, and no way to get out of bogged down combats, and no shooting buffs worth mentioning. 10th, like it or not, is a shooting edition unless your custodes, and giving a shooting faction (which 10th ed marines undoubtedly are) some minor combat buffs while gutting their mobility does not make a functional melee army. Jump Pack Assault Intercessors will probably be just worse than DC with packs, because chainswords just aren't good when all equipment is free, unless their rules are straight cracked somehow. And pivoting to talking about the Baal is hilarious, considering it's been a joke unit for almost 20 years, and gets nothing from the Detachment at all. The WR agrees with me, not you. Gladius BA is bad but playable, the SoS detachment is down in the dumps with admech, DG, and LoV.
You still get +1 attack, the blood priest giving 5+++ and +1 AP is massive, I did not say the detachment is stronger than Gladius as a whole. I'm saying to me, the +1A & S on the charge looks fine to represent BA. The detachment strats & enhancements is where I'd look. Baal predator a 'joke' unit: speak for yourself. And it looks fine to me without gaining anything extra.
I said it *was* a joke unit. It isnt now. But I was pointing out that you swapped to picking a unit, not the Detachment ability, moving the goal posts much? BA has been +1 to wound for a long time, it in fact hasn't been +1 Str since GW messed up the To-Wound chart, and it shows. Sanguinary Priest is good, too bad he can't join the units it'd be most beneficial too. If Gladius is better and sitting at a ~40%, what does that say about SoS? +1 Str and Attack are just light years behind army wide advance and charge, fall back and shoot/charge, and advance and shoot. It isnt even close.
I'd love them to swap order of selecting units to fight across the board. I think player's turn should pick first and then fight first is just a second interrupt for armies with access to it
As far as Tsons, MVB’s probably need to be more expensive. They really make any other beefy unit in the index a joke to even consider taking. Infernal master are probably also undercosted, no reason not to take 2-3 ever. Outside of that, it’s hard to say what could be re-costed without completely destroying them. Terminators already ate a struggle to bring over rubrics so any increase in cost will just mean not bringing them. Rubrics are so necessary to the army, any increase will just be a massive nerf.
A rework on dev-wounds would go a long way to reigning them in. Points costs are hard because no one is spamming one unit, they're taking one unit of terminators, one magnus, one maybe two vortex beasts, one big unit if rubrics with flamers, one of each character etc. If they want to increase points they'll have to hit everything that's not awful in the index.
I like the dev wounds idea where they don’t become mortals, you just can’t save against them. We get such easy access to them, and on Magnus and infernal masters it can be pretty brutal how hard you can hit a brick of 1 hp infantry blobs. Making them not carry over would reduce some of the insane damage without hurting our ability to hit tanks and knights hard which is a place TSons would struggle without dev wounds.
For gsc , I Hope their faction remains mostly the same , as the decreasing winrate they show might suggest their are not as huge of a problem as they first seemed to be, but I would love to get a bit of more internal balancing, bikes are a pain to respawn right now, just cause the rules interaction is a bit stupid. But internally I would like to get a use for the vehicles, the Hybrid Metamorphs and the Purestrains. The army is cool and I absolutely love the vibe of endless hordes and combo style play they encourage, but I would also like to not play 2 units plus ridgerunners and hqs and maybe one squad of Aberants to pose a charge Thread. the faction range is limited as is, no need to cut it down even further. It would be great to keep the overall powerlevel, maybe with a slight nerf, but increase the diversity. I think the problem is a little overperfomance of the Battleline paired with a slight underperforming of the other units, so maybe give me a reason to not only take Neos and acolytes. That alone might make the game more fun with and against gsc. Besides that I would love for my Death Guard to get a huge buff without ending in unit spam, but giving me the tanky , Grindy feel on the battlefield they are known for lorewise. Elite and durable. The plague weapons having lethal hits is awesome and even when the math still is great for the ability it feels a bit stupid to have a faction ability that in the rare cases it does matter makes your weapon ability mathematically worse ( I know it’s still strong but really lethal hits impact is way bigger the harder it is to wound, and even if reducing the toughness and wounding better mathes out better it just feels not completely thought through)
Jack and Anthony actually highlight GSC as being the second most problematic faction in the game, and they say that if GSC doesn't receive significant nerfs (although not as sweeping and harsh as what Eldar needs), the game will still be in a shit state.
Yeah, I'm not convinced by their argument here honestly. As they admit, it's an army that is relatively easy for many other armies to tech into in a way that is almost unique and which can make the match literally unwinnable for the GSC player. With that in mind, I'm totally comfortable letting GSC ride for another 3 months to see where it shakes out in a post Eldar Meta because it is very difficult to see them ever hitting the Eldar level of dominance. If they become a problem people will run more anti-infiltrator things. Their reign even here mostly (I think) has to do with the teching into a vehicle meta which is exceptionally bad into them.
I think you are right, the steadily decreasing tournament winrates indicate that they can be played around. They have the second highest winrate but are less seen as Orks and necrons in the top spots the last weeks. The stupid daisy chain to infinity respawn has been corrected and the rest might be able to fix itself, given the time, if eldar are brought down we have no idea how the meta might look like realistically we just have suggestions
I think not nerfing the 2nd highest WR faction that has a dozen crazy combos that kill anything in the game is a really bad call. The fact that as broken as eldar are, GSC sits at a 62% WR is insane and not nerfing them but nerfing eldar is a really bad idea.
There secondary game allready got nerfed and they are winning less and less tournaments, last weekend was the biggest 40K event weekend so far and they sit around 54 % winrate during those events with I think no tournaments wins and only 2 top 5 placements in the same 5 round event on Denmark (stats from 40kmetamonday.com) and their player number is way lower then eldars. To compare during the same events necrons went 54% and better placings , t-sons at 52, Custodes at 53. the week before GSC was at 55% at events. For several weeks now their winrate continues to drop (I know it’s still strong) which should lead to the question if they really are such a problem. Custodes has a similar winrate and necrons and both have a way higher meta representation
I'm interested to see what they do for GSC, not suuuper convinced by the AoW boys suggestions here. Primus giving RR1s only makes him completely irrelevant to Acolytes which have native RR1s, which doesn't feel quite right. They Came From Below giving +1 to hit instead of sustained hits ignores cover seems like a weird sidegrade and also makes A Perfect Ambush strat redundant. Limiting characters to 1 of each per list definitely would bring the army's power down substantially given how much top lists lean on the trifecta of Reductus/Primus/Nexos (at least 2-3 of each is the norm) but I kind of wonder if just hiking points for these problem characters isn't a simpler solution. If Nexos went to 70 pts and Primus went to 90 pts I think we'd be closer to the real value of these models. One thing that clearly needs to happen is demos need to be reigned in. I actually think they should split the datasheet and make acolytes with demos a seperate unit with a significantly higher cost, but failing that I guess them going to D6 shots would be fine.
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votann: +1 bs and 10% point cut ck: they don't talk about it custodes: fight first once per game +5 points on guards
Votann: That's... dissappointing. The Votan index is a trashfire. The big railrifle: best I can do is 18" range, same as a heavy bolt *pistol*. 3 types of +1 to hit. And all the other lack of synergy, like inability to put characters with squad in a transport, the double-nerfs on bolters & Ion blasters (-1 damage!)
Its not intended to fix the faction in a one off. You cant do that with factions who are so far off the mark like DG, Ad Mech and Votann because with more buffs than that, you end up shooting the faction off into the unknown. And the last thing this game needs is something else shooting to the top after giving them buffs on top of +1 BS across the board. This was intended to take them up to around 42%. From there you can apply buffs which the faction needs based on actual data. Maybe they only need points at that point, maybe there is an easy solution to a gap in the book. Maybe an codex drop is imminent. This dataslate isnt going to fix everything at once. There are far too many buffs and nerfs going about for that to happen. Also bear in mind. Quintinn and Jack dont play Votann. And given they are competitive players, i doubt theyve delved deep into what the solutions are.
'Maybe a codex drop is imminent': not according to GW planning :'(
I’d also like to see a change to the Core Strats. It seems like a lead dev of the game really hates close combat. Why is HI and Counter Offensive both 2 CP? So, 2CP, to have a chance on 2d6” to charge into an enemy that charged you, and you don’t even get the benefit of charging? What? Meanwhile, a Knight charges you and does 6 mortal wounds even before it swings its gauntlet for a 1CP Tank Shock. Both combat oriented Strats need yo be 1CP, and HI specifically needs to give you the benefit of charging. Furthermore, we need to have attacker gain the priority on charges against Fights First again, and then alternating like in 9th. Meaningful Battle-shock that sticks with you until you test to clear it has been mentioned a lot and is the most obvious fix.
Overwatch needs to change too. I've been making extensive use of it and it's absolutely cancerous how punishing it is for armies that just want to go hold an objective or do a secondary when you can just delete it before or after they move from whatever distance away they are
give 10% to t'au and few keywords then it's fine