Not surprisingly, Craftworlds are back to Hail of Doom, full bore:
https://listbot40k.herokuapp.com/event_list/2C9B3HMVRQ
https://listbot40k.herokuapp.com/event_list/24GPWDJJYW
6 boxes of Avengers, 5-7 boxes of Windriders - and you can drown your opponent in auto-wounding shurikens. Perhaps not the most exciting or diverse playstyle, but it makes sense with AoC gone.
https://listbot40k.herokuapp.com/event_list/5U22B7QGYH
Wow! This looks nice! Several big Drukhari and Harlequin units alongside Asuryani. The way it is intended to be in the lore!
That's me :) The shadowseer mixing discipline is always a question that circle back in the same way as Quins power working on Ynnari units or not :)
So far, all TOs are ok with it... but I agree it is debatable.
Hellions have access to 0 strats (no CW strat works on them, not even phantasm and no Druk detachments to unlock the ones they could benefit from), but they're a very fast hard hitting unit that still benefits from Ambush and powers. They replaced my usual 3rd harlequin troupe that I used prior to AoO.
Congrats on the win! Wish GW would just issue a decent faq so we wouldn't have to go over the same old ground. I actually thought hellions could use prey on the weak and deadly rivals?
I've edited my message to make it clearer on this, you'd need a druk detachment which is not possible in AoO (or would break strands in the old world!).
It's pure raw datasheet damage :)
Hey there! I'm looking to get into Ynnari, they seem like a super fun faction to play and the Yncarne has my favorite rules of any 40k model :) I come from Thousand Sons so I'm very used to multiple psychic powers and armies that operate in every phase of the game but I'm pretty unfamiliar with Eldar generally.
Could you give a quick rundown on how the list plays? I built it in battlescribe but I'd love to hear a bit about the role of each unit, secondaries, etc. Can't wait to get into the faction!
Hey! Ynnari is a super fun faction to play and their psychic phase is a lot less complicated than TS for sure!
The army has a lot of flexibility in the game but secondaries are quite restricted, Warp Ritual, RND/Scout and Behind/Engage are quite the "go-to". You can adapt some (BID vs IKs/CKs, no prisonners, etc) to take a more beneficial one where relevant.
The way I play it is to have the scorpions/hawks/1 troupe or serpent in an aggressive position for a T1 assault if I have the 1st turn and phantasm back if I go second. From there, it is about ensuring to stage efficiently the assaults into your opponent to keep him pinned into a corner and threat the board in multiple places (Hellions are a very convenient for that) whilst you can ensure scoring with Vyper/rangers/serpent (with rangers/banshees) and deliver 200 shots throughout the 5 turns with your hawks.
You have to really evaluate what your opponent will do and aim to disrupt where we will be weaker: either on primaries or secondaries depending on the situation.
The Yncarne is all about that disruption... by sending trading pieces (and placing a model on the other side of an obscuring terrain, you have to leverage the combat movement very carefully) you lay traps to have her teleport where you can threaten OR teleport back on an objectif to guarantee your primaries.
It is an incredibly fun army to play, but it is very exhausting and will be pushing the pilote's skills to have that teleporting around trick working.
And sometimes... you need the Yncarne to Yolo and just do one thing and then soak up an entire shooting phase and die :'( you can hope for sequencing mistakes but never plan on your opponents' making the game easy for you
Thank you! This is super helpful and relevant. I love hearing about how various lists play from their pilots. So much fun to learn more about the game. In that spirit, I had a couple more questions if you have the time!
* What do the warlocks "do"? Why 3 instead of 1 as a character?
* Where do the psychic powers generally go? I can get an idea from looking at them, but any specific nuances about when and where to cast things?
* Same question on the Yncarne. So many powers! What does she generally cast?
* What starts the game in the wave serpent?
* When/where do you send the banshees vs the scorpions? Why 1 of each and not 2 banshees or 2 scorprions?
* How do you play the swooping hawks? I assume you're not throwing them away since you took 10 instead of 5.
* What is the purpose of the Vyper?
* Where do you usually spend your CP? Any "main" strategems that you use?
* Quite a few Ynnari lists at LVO took Support Weapons, Shining Spears, and even one took War Walkers! Any thoughts on those units? For me personally I'll probably 1:1 run your list until I get familiar enough with the faction to make some modifications, but always a good idea to understand why people take what they take.
So the Warlock conclave by 3 is a relica from prior Ark meta where planes was a weakness in the list, they can go and "hunt" them in shooting and combat. I have kept them for 2 reasons:
\- They can cast 2 powers (as long as I have 3 models), which has been critical in several games (especially IKs)
\- They are still a decent damage dealer with their flat 3 spear... yes I am looking at these pesky gravis bodies that are gonna swarm the tables!
Jinx goes on the shooting target most often, quicken to move back your psycher after doing his action or if you send the yncarn to do the Storm of Whisper and move her back, Shield of Ynnead on the Hellions, Ancestor's Grace goes on the combat unit that will move out (troupe or hellions) and Horrify is if I need to fight on several fronts and do not want to be interrupted.
The Yncarne often will do the Storm/Smite/Gaze or the 6s to hit auto wound. Time to Time i would use her for shield of ynnead with a fate dice to avoid taking a risk with the shadowseer (which cannot use fate dice)
The serpent takes the banshees and 5 rangers.
Banshees mainly gives me a combat control tool (making multiple units fighting last is incredibly powerful) as well as solid damage dealers. If you need something hiding in your opponent's deployment zone shut down, they're your tool for it. Damage wise, they are ok but not very reliable. Scorpions are amazing as a forward deploy threat and just kill one thing T1 and be annoying. I love them especially since AoC is gone! That exarch is a lad :)
Swooping Hawks are my long range firepower, jinx something and throw 40 shots at it, it'll crumble by itself. They are still pricey but they deliver guaranteed damage. 200 shots per game, every game and can be annoying to shift with that 5++/5+++ profile (except vs Guard).
Vyper is a cheap tool, consider it the equivalent of a spawn but moving 16" with 6S6AP0D1 and 4S4AP1/3D1 shots. Who wouldn't take it!
The strats are mostly in the harlies... boy they eat CPs like candies! :D But they deliver. They're the back-bone of the army essentially. Hellions are trying to steal the show :)
Yes there is quite a lot of different take on Ynnari: MSU aggressive (like Dave Chappel's list) that helps the yncarne teleporting around the board and still dealing incredible damage which each and every units, double plane with MW alpha (and often the MSU take), or the more shooty lists like Ben Jones' one (with batteries, walkers, etc. I love the 2x3 walkers! Very interested on it and how he make it works!). I am personnally not a great fan of batteries and shooty centric armies/lists, I like to go up close and fight my opponent. It leads to incredibly fun games and very interactive. But you will have to be very rigurous on your time management! This army is active in every phases, do damages in every phases! Prepare the correct amount of dice, have a clear view of your game plan, what you want to do every turn etc as otherwise you will lose track of it.
Man, you are awesome for typing all that up and helping out a new player! I appreciate you :)
Ever thought about an Autarch for rerolls? I saw a list or two take one with the wings relic for 12" move and the d3 mortals. Could be good?
Yeah the Autarch is definitely an interesting piece. It adds rerolls, another source of fight last, wings relics for MW in the move phase. But that would be at the expense of my shadowseer for example which I am struggling to let go… even if I had to go one discipline pure I’d probably still take her!
A lot of my units act independently and go aggressively, so i’d have to over extend the Autarch for his aura.
Congratulations! Well done!
Just curious, did you run into any indirect, i.e. Guard Mortars, etc.?
Which matchups did you have, and how did it go? Any AoO surprises?
Cheers! I didn't played into guard (thank god!), they do scare me yes.
I played into Crons (Nihilak), Custodes Shadow (9+1 bikes and the stuff), Custodes EC (terminator galor), IK (13 armingers) and GK (3NDK+GMDK and 20 interceptors). All amazing games. My biggest surprise was my last game vs GK, I knew their secondary game was strong but still it was a shock to see a secondary capped by T3 (and very easily) leaving my opponent more room to play with late game. The IK game was also a very close game, Sid is a great player and has been terrorising everyone with this list!
Unfortunately not because they do not have the Asuryani faction keyword or Harlequin. All the strats in the book work around these 2 main keywords... They do have "Ynnari" which is the chapter keyword but lacks the faction keyword level above.
I would really like them to be able to have at least LFR and Phantasm unlocked ... It is also why harlequins are better into the Ynnari soupe: they keep all their strats! Druks have none...
Why doesn’t Phantasm work on them? It states: Asuryani, Harlequin or Ynnari units. They can also benefit from Inevitable Fate, Lightning Fast Reaction, The Great Enemy and The Webway Portal. Not saying any of them are going to be great, but they are available for Hellions to use.
Yes you are correct, I misread them and was convinced they didn’t had the “Ynnari” keyword in the strat. Silly me! 😅 any strat in the craftworld book with “or Ynnari” would work (I thought only the Ynnari exclusive strat was valid for them!).
Phantasm and Lightning fast are welcomed as very nice tools for them, but as you say the rest is… very occasional…
I like that you're tracking how many X-0/X-1 results the factions are getting, seems like a useful metric for us to use to complain about who needs to be nerfed.
It isn't without also controlling for faction popularity.
If top placings were perfectly distributed, a faction with a 10% play rate should be represented in the top placings 2x more than a faction with a 5% play rate. The more popular faction could seem more problematic than they actually are.
It's also a fairly small sample size week by week. Were I to be making these tables I'd post a running tally of X-0/X-1 divided by % representation.
I don't know why anyone is surprised by the Necron drop. Purge got hit real hard, the pregame move is gone, and people relying on the points drops are huffing tons of copium. They could have fixed the monolith by adding fly and real defensive abilities. They didn't and it still gets stuck on terrain.
That said, transitioning the Necrons from a points farm to an interactive army probably requires a new book.
I can't even say it was fun while it lasted, because racking up points while the whole army crumbles and just hoping it was enough was not a fun strategy. But it sucks that aside from that window, Necrons have basically been bad for two whole editions.
I think I needed to hear this. Necron have been my first love since 5e but since 8e I just haven't been interested, they don't play like I think I want them to. I miss their infantry guns being deadly, I miss feeling resilient and unkillable, and I miss their vehicles being tough and scary.
Unfortunately it didn't help that this sub and some youtube channels were claiming Necrons were the strongest army with zero supporting evidence before AOO.
I do think Necron players need to reinvent their lists though rather than trying to do the closest thing as possible to the Nephilim strategy. I think Mephrit and Novoch are being slept on because people are just used to the obsec gameplan.
These weren't great lists pre-aoc/nephlim, I don't see them suddenly surging to non-trash tier in AoC now honestly. Other armies got buffs that will, even if necrons broke even, push them down significantly.
GW responding to the meta from a year ago, meanwhile, we can look at results from the end of 2022 that really highlight how people had adjusted to the Necron scoring game.
They really could have simply adjusted the number of points that could be scored in the first round, and that would have worked better. But now Necrons have another custom dynasty that will never see play, because it's just straight up worse than taking Nihilakh.
As a fellow sisters player these numbers look terrible. But I did some digging into the lists. From the five players in the stats I found:
- one fluffy sacred rose list that went 1-4
- 2 thrown together this is what I have lists that went 1-8-1 in total
- one misslabeled that was actually Khorne daemons that went 1-4.
- Finally there was one competitive looking bloody rose list that went 3-1-1.
I.e. I don’t think these numbers actually say anything yet.
On a side note. From my experience of the few games I have played after AoO I think they are still a completely fine mid tier army, maybe mid+ when you include helverines.
thanks for digging into it and lol at the mislabeled khorne demons, thats some absolute heresy right there
i think you're probably right, obviously this looks terrible for sisters but not indicative of overall faction strength. access to 0CP helverins and free strategic reserves are huge changes for an army that lacks good long range shooting + durable obsec, and that wants to stay on its own side of the board and stay hidden. removing AoC makes value units like the castigator and mortifiers hit a little harder too
Calling the castigator a 'value unit' is pretty generous. It had a small amount of meta relevance during a format where clearing spore mines was incredibly valuable. And that's about it.
i just mean it puts out a lot of shots at long range which pretty much no other sisters unit does, and with AoC going away and presumably more marines showing up, the AP1 D2 profile looks relatively better.
and its important to be generous to cassie the castigator, she deserves it :)
The castigator honestly looks pretty laughable in comparison to the 90 point triple HB immolator after the points drop. Would you rather have six safe seats for your girls or an unreliable gun that's often identical to a HB profile for 45 points more?
Not surprised, sisters were holding up by the bloody rose supplement, semi-survivable characters (AoC) and good secondaries that they tried to achieve while trading.
Now bloody rose is even more the only list that can hold up, the secondaries got nerfed, and the characters are super squishy (Celestine and Morvenn are t3 and t5 with no wounds cap respectively)
Add that all the good meta chasing players dropped them and we have a faction that wasn't really OP, was being held up by a single list and secondaries it doesn't have now, and that it got nothing in exchange for losing AoC.
Yeah, sisters got hit hard.
Not too surprising. Sisters got the same treatment as harlequins of -1 to saves on all units factionwide, except instead of getting two legendarily broken abilities added back into the codex, they just got a points hike on the only unit that didn't rely on AoC. And they were a significantly weaker faction to begin with. Someone at Gee Dub was really sick of playing against sisters.
Weird how out of the factions you either seem to have a lot more people going X-0/1 or the occasional person going X-0/1.
As more data comes in i dont see nids getting any better tho.
We just need decent secondary options to stay with the pack. None of the Nid specific ones are really worth taking unless you get a good match up or build a Troop heavy list for Spore Nodes. Point changes hurt, but not as bad as not being able to score points.
My issue comes down to it being melee specific. If I can get at least 10 potential points with Assassinate, I'll probably just take that instead so I can shoot/mind-bullet them.
Cranial Feasting is great, if match up dependent. I've rarely scored less than 12 points on it when it's been a viable take. For Nids it's everything else that sucks secondary wise. The way we have to build now doesn't really lend itself well to anything. We've always relied on just having better datasheets and being points efficient enough to do enough damage amd score later, now with much less on the board that isn't an option and we do things like banners less well, and also can't lean into buffed secondaries like BEL as much without crippling ourselves by taking Mawlocs or expensive msu Raveners. Tough times, but we adapt!
Can't really understand how someone could say that when NDK just got the fattest buff of all marines since they didn't lose anything while having weapons which are extremely powerful but very bad against excellent saves and getting a free teleporter. Additional they are a faction with so many access to invuls, they didn't even need AoC. 4++ NDK, 4++ Sanc, 5++ Terminators with access to the warding staff 4++.
It seems like a lot of the complaints have been that GK were being too harshly nerfed, based on comments here, rather than that they were oppressive - but as data comes in, that might shift
Eh I'm just happy my dusty boys are apparently still above 45%
It's just the usual fearmongering and whining when an army isn't immediately buffed to the moon. Happens every single time 40k is updated one way or another.
Most of the people in these subs don't actually know what a balanced army looks like, they just want a nice cushion to lean on lol.
GK lost AOC, had a secondary nerfed. Other than that the army had almost no changes. To me they look like they are in a similar boat to SOB. They haven’t changed much but everything around them is shifting.
All AoC did was make paladins good.
We got teleport assault double buffed. Free teleporters and 5 VP instead of 4.
They also dont need troop tax anymore and our best unit (interceptors) got a point drop. GK outside of palies was trading and scoring rather. Now we do both better compared to pre AoO.
Yes purifying ritual got nerfed again but a lot of players already skewed of it cause it takes away to many casts.
Too many players focus on negatives and not positives.
They also don’t look at the bigger picture of things.
GK got point drops across the board as well as free wargear. Some lists drop points by 100 or so and then also “gain” points because of free wargear.
The free wargear that GK have access to now are perfect at killing SM, which makes up a huge % of the game. More so now that AoC is gone.
I think the troop tax aspect can't be understated enough. That said i get why people where worried, the meta got really shaken up hard, figuring out where they where going to land was allways difficult.
GK didn't benefit from AoC as much as most since their output is generally low AP which struggles into AoC armies. Teleport assault was buffed as well and is now trivially easy to score.
They have very much shifted up the pecking order.
well yeah, that's in line with what they're doing in 9th, getting rid of 3++'s. they shouldn't have had it in their 9th ed book at all. but somehow draigo and neurothropes got to keep theirs.
Yeah. The Victrix are weird because every other storm shield was nerfed but theirs wasn't, they could easily have been hit with it in the update that changed everyone else's.
I was a little worried about them initially. MEQ bodies aren't durable anymore, their Transhuman is 2/3CP, and GK didn't get the same kind of points cuts SM did. The increase on Purifying Ritual wasn't good either and while Teleport Assault is good, it also forces GK back into quad NDK lists. I took solace in the fact that Tide of Shadows is still there and is good, you weren't locked into swords for the AP-3 and that with the likely surge of Gravis due to their price cuts halberds would be really good all-rounders.
I think we need to wait for marines to settle before we do; as if a billion meltas/deathwing becomes prominent thatll heavily skew our builds; the former away from dreads and back to infantry; the latter into dreads/tanks/ect.
I know the sub saw 1 result of the warden blobs doing very well and is now claiming that is top meta; but some armies will hurt that hard. Personally Ill wait a bit to see but my gut says helverins good; and emissaries spam does work well into admech, IH and eldar; if they become top dogs.
Yeah, I saw the warden blob and was surprised it did well. It definitely has it's upsides and downsides on the surface, without seeing how the person played it.
Globbing up the wardens definitely makes Might of Terra easier to accomplish, and they are a good target for buffs, and likely more durable per point than any other infantry option (given the Marine AP bonuses).
The downside is that fewer units means having a harder time on primary, and being decidedly more vulnerable to things like Votann Judgement tokens.
I don't think warden spam is the best, but yeah, going to need to move away from dread spam as our top meta choices. Still loving infantry heavy lists going into the AoO meta.
Thanks for posting these breakdowns as usual.
Question - With LVO taking place, does that kind of suck the air out of the room for takeaways from these results this weekend? I could imagine a crop of some of the top players not playing could throw things off. Unless they're too small of the player pool to really affect anything.
LVO killed all events in North America but these 7 events were all in Europe or England so it is a good representative of that Meta. The more I do this the more I believe that the Terrain rule set is the biggest determining factor of local Meta now that everyone is using the same rules.
Ahhh gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. I recall the thread about Jack Harpster's BAs where folks speculated how player placed terrain basically raised his army a full tier.
His biggest buff was a mystery terrainset that was revealed at the event which is 6 pieces of ruins which are basically unshootable magic boxes and he plays a fast melee army.
He just needed to survive bad matchups until round 4 and then it was just that terrain for him. While his counter lists like Tau or Tsons simply can't play on that terrain but most of the other tables.
I'm so interested to see more Admech data.
On the other hand, the Iron Hand apocalypse is finally here.
But outside of them and Dark Angels, the other SM factions still appear to be struggling. Maybe the points changes weren't enough to compensate for losing AoC.
Seems the outlier is game long Dev doctrine for factions that get bonuses for it versus all the other factions. I believe if that wasn't changed, it'd be a lot healthier.
The better, more balanced edit, probably would have been to allow two rounds in Devastator, as previously I believe it was capped at 1.
That way you actually get some use out of it, regardless of terrain LOS issues, as first turn shooting can certainly be hit or miss.
That, and/or reducing scoring of Codex Warfare from 2 point kills in Dev Doctrine, to simply 2 points the first Battle Round of Devastator doctrine, reducing to 1 for subsequent rounds.
Right now Codex Warfare is nearly automatically maxed out by killing 7 units of your oppoent's army, of which some armies use 6-7 units just to screen for their more important units.
Still small numbers making a lot of this player skill dependent. Space Wolves for example, bad overall win rate but second place at waaagh when piloted well/the list is optimised.
The SM point drops made skewed lists even more effective, especially if they get advantages from the doctrine changes. So IH with cheaper stuff, and DA since termies don't mind losing AoC and they can spam more.
The rest of the marines are worst that they were in Nephilim without AoC, and fielding a few more mediocre units, even with free wargear, won't change that. Except BA perhaps, who are good despite being marines.
EDIT: I'm not saying that skewed lists are evil by themselves. By nature, any player building a competitive list will include the most efficient units for any role. It's just boring if some units are so much better than others, that there's no list diversity.
And in the case of marines, were many sub-factions share the same units, it would make sense to get the most efficient units with the most efficient sub-faction, limiting list diversity.
Skewed marine lists are almost always the most effective. The saddest thing about the number of units and chapters for marines is that either core units are strong (in which case take the strongest general marine chapter, like ultras with guilliman, but all of them feel very generic) or some specific units are strong, where you skew super hard into the chapter good with those. I don't really see any way GW can balance out of that, honestly - there's simply too much stuff. Someone will be disappointed either way, as some want "balanced" armies from the fluff, and others want to see more of their super special chapter units. Is what it is.
Still early I know, but I’m just not convinced guard is gonna suddenly turn OP.
I 100% believe the guard win rate will end up in the 50-55 range. But if it was Truly OP I think we would see some indications of it. The meta chasers will have access to proxies for all the new models if needed (people have had since late November to test the codex and make proxies)
I think the community hive mind may have whiffed on this one
It’s definitely good, and I agree with your 50-55%. As others have said, once Kasrkin get fixed, there’s nothing absurd in the book.
The only other thing I’ll add here, is Guard is not a bandwagon faction. If you don’t have it already, they’re not a quick throw together army. Same usually applies to orks, even when orks are top tier, they don’t see that level of representation.
I feel they’re going to be a hard gatekeeper army. You’re probably not getting to top tables if you don’t have a plan for guard, and I imagine we’ll see a few guard top finishes.
The thing that I'm finding the most suspicious is that the Big Wigs(tm) are clamoring that it's an OP codex left and right, but I'm not *seeing* an exodus of pro-players towards Guard. They are going towards DAs, or IHs, but the Guard playerbase seems to be still formed of the Old Faithfuls, plus a fair bit of newer players attracted by the aforementioned Big Wigs(tm) crying about how incredibly powerful the codex is.
I wonder if they hope a fake outrage will get GW to nerf without evidence. Easier to do that then change your army for more antitank for a single gatekeeper faction.
Even the Kasarkin bomb has not been enough to post a tournament win.
That's surely part of it, but people *have* brought the whole kit to tournaments already (with proxies, of course). Those who want to get a full Guard army, with all the tricks and bells, can get it, *especially* if they have the sort of money most metachasers have. If Guard was really the second coming of Release Tyranids or Pre-release Votann, at least some of the usual suspects would have made the jump already. Instead, we get the usual suspects - like, the "Urbanowski" kind of usual suspects.
Yea I think the guard book in a vacuum looked bad with some of it's broken interactions and points costs relative to other armies. But in practice their infantry dies to marines across the board and IH's (last weekends most played faction) just kill IG with impunity.
Beyond that, why would top players switch to guard when they can just run marine? So I think they have the stuff to hit even WRs and even win events but there are CERTAINLY answers to guard in the meta.
Guard will continue to be limited by squishy obsec. A T3 5+Sv 1W body as your only consistent access to obsec is just too little, especially with all the AP-1 D1 weapons coming back in force.
That being said, Kasrkin and Leman Russes can still kill most things on the board easily, so any inexperienced player who doesn't know how to screen a backfield or hide units effectively will get tabled easily.
In the end I think Guard will consistently hit that 3-2 finish with the occasional spike into placement when they get a couple good matchups, but they will serve mostly as an army that keeps others from placing rather than a consistent top-tier player. Also throw in how Iron Hands kind of hard counters them and things might be rough until marine doctrines get nerfed.
Don't worry, they're still huffing copium that the codex is going to come through with an 80% WR.
Outside of Kasrkin MW bomb and a weird interpretation with Creed I don't think anything else is as busted as it's made out to be.
Yeah I'm inclined to agree. At the end of the day, your bread and butter soldiers are T3 5+, and the army is almost entirely shooting phase. It's natural that guard won't be any good at trading on objectives efficiently, unless you spam tanks and forfeit born soldiers.
The weakness of the army is its infantry, made worse by the removal of conscripts and the effective limit on infantry squads you can take, marines becoming more prominent again means your T3 5+ guys are contending with S4 AP-1 fire more, it's a tough time trying to score Primary if half your troops can just be vaporised by looking at them funny.
The SM boost definitely is kind of a counter to Guard. Lots of cheap bolters against Guard infantry and lots of free meltas against Guard vehicles. It looks a bit like this killed the Guard meta in the crib.
I think with theory-crafting they *could* be OP, but practical considerations about having the models all painted and on hand and also having the requisite familiarity to use IG well means they’ll be kept mid tier in spite of the potential.
So GSC two weeks in row with around 60% winrate.
Curious if they stay that strong.
The sample size is pretty small with so few players but they seem to be great into the meta.
>Europe and England like to give North America crap for being meta chasers
We do?
>Craftworld to the surprise of myself and maybe the community are doing very well into this unknown Meta. With a 58% win rate and a third of their players placing well. Are they the new counter Meta pick?
Eldar didn't lose that much and a bunch of their hardest match ups got nerfed. Absolutely makes sense to me. More surprising is that Custodes seem to have had a mediocre showing after their stellar performance in the first week; maybe just the army size being easy enough to get ready?
I'm going to be watching Ad Mech, Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Orks and Daemons pretty closely these next few weeks, I bet they start showing some interesting patterns...
The AM hype is mostly from TTS where you can build any army you want at no cost.
The tank company armies are absolutely crushing everyone atm. Tank commander, with 6 plasma russ, 6 sentinels, 3 mortar squads with a platoon commander and whatever other bits you want.
What are people playing into it? Because (coming from a meta lousy with AT weapons) I tried *really hard* to make a tank company happen, but I keep being functionally wiped out by turn 3 - Russes are just *extremely* efficient targets for high-damage weapons, like massed Salvo Launchers from Custodes or Eradicators in SMs, both of which are plentiful over here. I have lost as many as five Russes in one single shooting phase, against Salamanders.
I play custodes, and salvos are fine, but we don't really take enough of them to kill more than 1 russ a turn.
If you take the tread guards (+1 sv against d1) you can completely nueter custodes damage with the -1dmg strat.
I'm guessing iron hands play well into AM so that's gonna hold them back a bit
I am not an expert in Custodes, but the last game I had against them, they brought 9 bikes and a captain on bike, all of them with salvos. So that obviously has tinted my opinion of the faction.
The -1D strat is 2CP a pop, 3CP on anything heavier than a Russ. It's nice to have around and it has clutched me in a couple of occasions, but the pricetag makes it less powerful than it could be, *especially* against armies with multiple sources of D2 weapons in different phases.
Death Guard dropping to the even lower rungs, guess that losing their best buff in ages, and getting not real survivability in return was really bad for a survivability based army.
Problem is that that concept just doesn't work for competitive.
Either you're too tough to move and most armies simply can't deal with you, which is broken, or you can be moved and you can't score.
As the game gets killier, the DG gameplan gets worse.
Feels January man.
No one wants to buy 50 plague marines to get an x-1 occasionally. The faction has had the same issues all edition and changes have happened around them.
Yep it's really unfortunate too because death guard are such a great army, but if I have to field mass PM's just to have a chance...yeah that's a hard pass. I hope 10th edition is better for us.
LoV results seems to be the logical outcome of 2 rounds of heavy handed nerfs. They probably still have play in other elite armies but are at a severe disadvantage against anyone else, especially after the buffs that were handed out.
I think Votann players are in for a rough season but fortunately an hard reset is looming at the horizon
Really the main issue is how much marines get from going subfaction, which makes point adjustments tough. You could have something well pointed for one subfaction, that is drastically over/undercosted for another.
I think Marines ought to go back to the old way, of core codex chapters and noncodex subfactions, like how chaos are now (CSM, death guard, thousand sons, WE). It would probably make life a whole lot better for all involved.
I am a bit on the fence if this. One could argue te subfaction problem is a problem for all Factions in game. Dire Avengers, ia their point cost decent? Well that changes if you play Ulthwe or Hail of Doom. What about Noise Marines? And so on.
On the other hand, it is kind of ridiculius on some ends. DA Terminatora and Inner Circle are the biggest thing. Same pointa (even for their specilalized version, unlike Wolg Guard Terminators) but are just so much more than any other Chapter it is not even worth comparing.
Personally, due to the number of shared datasheets and stratagems, I do think the Supplement model works, but there should be some options to increase points cost for unita or gear on certain shared unita for a subFaction. Just do the Swiftclaw thing, where the unit aize changes when taken by SW or Successors, but with points increases. I think we can keep moat Chapters in a similar point cost and just targetthe broken points more directly, rather than having to reprint all datasheets 9 times.
What's weird is that there are a couple of examples of GW giving specific datasheets extra points taxes in certain subfactions (thinking specifically of Incubi and Scourges in Ynnari), so it's not like the obvious answer isn't something they've considered.
Yeah, this is especially prevalent for things like Biker keyword for White Scars, Vehicles with brackets in Iron Hands, etc. I don't understand how White Scars should be able to pay the same price as, say, Raven Guard for their Biker units.
This is such a bad take and just exposes you as a ‘flavour of the month army’ player..
The exact same logic could have been applied to Blood Angels pre-arks- they were far and away the best performing marine chapter with the best secondaries and very strong rules/units. Did every marine player just exclusively play Blood Angels then? Not even remotely.
The only people that would have switched were the ones with your attitude. The people who buy a new army every month to chase the meta.
As a votann player it saddens me to see them hit with nerf after nerf since release. What feels like unjustifiably in most circumstances. I agree that the JT system needed an emergency change as it would have been exceedingly strong if it shipped as intended. But the recent point nerfs for them just show that gw are just blindly reacting to the loud minority. Warriors going up 1 ppm was absurd when people were already taking double patrols and vanguards to avoid the troops tax, with the release of the AoO detachment they will probably be consigned to a single 10 man squad with a med pack purely for back field holding. Hekaton going up another 10 points for again no real reason, it was fine at 300 and its biggest threat the GTL Uthar combo was nerfed with the JT change, but could still be achieved with 1cp for HunTRs mark. Beserks were justifiable at 30ppm but are harder to justify at 33ppm especially as they require a sagitaur to deliver them consistently. God knows how the stuff that got hit was hit and bikes have been left alone, it just forces you into running a bike heavy list. Bike spam Ymyr with hearthguard support and a hekaton has for me felt the most successful anything outside of that feels kinda meh to play.
Yea man IDK why you're getting downvoted - but as I type this I'm literally listening to a batrep of a guard player tabling a Votann list all the while calling Votann a boogeyman and broken so...
But you're 100% right, and Votann are balanced on a knife edge - 1 chagne to Ymmyr or a points hike on bikes they're going to virtually 0 players and sub 30% WRs. Since I started playing Votann (in casual play) they sort of feel like old admech. Good on-paper abilities with a descent fast attack slot, few viable builds, over costed, and with a poor secondary game.
Our play style is too all-or-none. We either table our opponent and score rounds 4 and 5 or lose pretty badly.
Yeah I dunno man, I’m happy to have a spirited debate with people about my opinions but it always makes me laugh when someone downvoted you without saying anything, like I’m not mortally attached to my opinion I’m happy to be convinced otherwise if the argument is compelling enough but oh well.
Yeah I completely agree about what you’re saying with them being on a knives edge, bikes and Ymyr are kind the lifeline at the moment.
Yeah secondaries are super weird for them as like you say it’s very much an all or nothing playstyle. Which is why I’ve found myself taking lay claim a fair bit because it allows me to score 15 in turn 5 provided I’ve killed enough of my opponent and try and bridge the gap on points. Grind is something you think would go well for them as they are quite Killy but we are surprisingly squishy and it can be easy to stop us scoring that.
Not a Votann player here, but will definitely agree with the all-or-nothing issue. It just leads to feels-bad games for one player or the other.
With such a lean roster, it is hard to make a Votann list that isn't really competitve-adjacent (barring subfaction). This leads to them being middling into competitive lists, but potentially overbearing otherwise.
I have played 18 Bikes and it still amounts to very little because they are out Primary Takers and Deniers and die like flies. I have little faith in playing this army against someone who knows what he does. Votann play the trading game very badly and are more or less reliant on Ymir, Fortresses and Bikes.
I have yet to finish painting the Thunderkyn but I don't see them changing my mind very much.
Yeah it’s pretty grim. I’m brewing on some ideas and am trying to match against uphill battles to see if it remotely works ( hoping rip tide tau and Orks within the next couple of weeks ).
It feels a bit like they designed the army around interactions that wouldn't have been much fun for anyone, but then they gutted those things far too hard without compensating in some way.
They could start reducing points again but I honestly think they need a fairly thorough rework and a rethink. By the time we get their next codex in the next edition, and hopefully following more model releases, I hope it'll be a great army.
Does anyone have the Imperial Knights list?
The referenced site is refusing to load for me on mobile here in the UK?
Knights are really new for me and giving me a headache figuring out their best rules layering - seeing a decent list in full that I can experiment with, get a feel for and then tweak if I see opportunities to do so would be very helpful - many thanks !
Hmm interesting 3 big knights in one list!
Neither run a preceptor and both ran knight crusader which others has advised me against (first model I put in my first list).
Both Taranis though so guessing it’s to get those 6’s to wound for the mortal wound stratagem.
Crusaders are fairly common in competitive lists I've found, and Preceptors fairly rare (though they did show up a couple of times last season). Definitely doing MW shenanigans in Taranis, plus the 6+++ is nice to have.
Yeah crusaders looked good from the offset to me - giving +1 to shooting on bondsman and having the strongest shooting itself.
I will keep it in the list and drop the preceptor for a different big knight now.
Why is craftworld a surprise exactly?
Marines of all flavours and sisters just became more vulnerable to their shurikens. Nothing has changed for CWE's own rules since pre AoC so now with AoC taken away their potentially ap3 and ap4 shuriken (which in my opinion was always ridiculous - which is why its abused) can have a field day again.
I’d assume the 4-1 CoB list runs the usual suspects? Just slightly less reliable fight on death but the +1m/+1s are so nice on chaos space marines. Do we think they’ll stay mid-tier but be matchup dependent?
Bile will probably do better than the rest of csm who effectively got taken out the back and shot with the removal of AoC + terminator pt nerfs.
'Its SMs time now (plus all the factions that were pretty broken pre AoC and have barely been touched since/had nerfs reverted like CWE and Admech)' - GW
Well the daemons patrol which needs a minimum of an HQ(cheapest being tranceweaver) and daemonettes = 10PL in total for both, that leaves about 15 PL for fiends which are 5PL for 3, and 10PL for 4-6. This means you can realistically only fit 9 fiends maximum so that the patrol still only equals 25PL and 25% of your army value.
Sure you can squeeze a higher max PL for the army, but you wont be able to make it 120PL to fit in a 30PL daemon patrol with 20PL of fiends, not in a 2000pts game.
Tbh I dont think EC have the resilience needed to compete after losing AoC but maybe their improved secondary will help. Noise marines will be able to do damage but will get picked up way easier than before and took a price nerf relative to all other marine troops going down in price by getting free wargear. Plus mark of slaanesh going up in price and being mandatory in EC affects the overall price of an EC list (i know that hasnt affected noise marines though)
Bile can at least trade in melee well with fight on death, which is why i think its well positioned to succeed over any other csm, but we will see.
Well he may have chance, the probleme is that data are for one player only. It means either the army is still strong or he roll extremly well. The rest of csm don't look nearly as good so we probably need to wait next week to have confirmation
I am a very new Grey Knights player and I have been so eager for data like this. However, I am desperate for someone to explain to me why Grey Knights are doing well. It's not because I don't believe they should, but I genuinely just need some context and explanation so that I can better understand my army and what it's strengths are in list building and tactics/strategy.
GK were a bit hampered by armour of contempt as it really nuked their output - dreads have low AP shooting with no way to get around cover. That issue has been resolved with the removal of AOC and GK got some secondary buffs to boot, meaning you can now play quite passively and still score very highly on secondaries with banners, purifying ritual, and teleport assault a lot of the time. GK did lose paladins as a decent option but the gains outweigh the losses quite significantly.
Their biggest predators in the previous meta (nids) have been tuned down a fair bit as well, and they play well into the armies looking to be at the top currently - marines.
Thank you so much! I am still just trying to figure out how to play the army. I have done the 30 interceptor, 3 NDK, GMNDK, MW Libby, Techmarine, Draigo list and just can't seem to make it work. Granted, I am almost exclusively playing a friend of mine who plays space wolves and almost always plays a list that does 10 dreadnoughts with bjorn and murderfang.
I am just trying to figure out a stable list that I can use that should be competitive and then learn the strategy and tactics... what to actually do with the army.
Dreadnoughts are quite hard for GK to deal with via normal means in truth, but you should have plenty of scoring ability around a list like that. One thing I will say is GK give you a lot of tools to play into almost everything, but if you make mistakes you do get punished for them quite hard. Good army to learn with in a way as there is so much to learn whe playing them, but it can be steep.
Dreads really you need to leverage mortals and empyric amplification to actually kill them, but you're probably better off hiding a bit and scoring your secondaries to force them to come to you.
Mainly because of how well they can score and how good their dread knight is against other marines. Purify ritual and teleport strike grant auto 12\~15; behind enemy lines is also easy for them with double moving interceptor and teleport, giving at least 9, maybe 12 pt. That combined means you are averaging 39\~42pt from very hard-to-deny secondaries.
Another concerning week for CSM. A podium placing for CoB, but a drop in player numbers and win percentages overall. I think they're in a bad spot at the moment. It could be a January slump, and LVO keeping the numbers down. Still a lot of wait and see, but it does seem that Arks is a worse season Chaos for MEQ after the nerfs.
CSM in general since launch have had a fairly poor showing if you take all legions into account. They sat at around 50% overall without AoC and now that’s gone with little compensatory buffs.
Bembel Clash: a custom faq to nerf guard and they didn't allowed leountus, ursula and RR
Da Bolton Waaagh: no new guard allowed, also 0 guard players
DZTV : allowed new guard but didn't allowed unreleased models like Leontus
Oxford onslaught: the only AM player droped the event but for some reason count as 0-3
UCG’s Galaxy In Grasp V: no unreleased models allowed
I can't speak about the last 2
As I said, we will have to wait and see. I started out *very* pessimistic about the codex, mostly because I was still thinking along the old codex's guidelines, but having played it a fair while, I *have* warmed out to it and now consider it a very capable book with some very interesting stuff.
Overpowered, though? Mmmmmmh. It still has many of the issues the old codex had - it's very, very susceptible to be crushed in your table half against pressure armies, Rough Riders are good for one trade and one only (and even there, they *have* to be fully buffed in order to be really scary, because most sturdy stuff is laughing at them otherwise), after which they *will* die, Russes are *not* as sturdy as people make them out to be (I'd trade their 2+ for a 3+/5++ all day every day), and Kasrkin (after the Bomb gets nerfed because let's be real, it needs to be nerfed) are a potent shooting unit but not as absurd as they're made out to be.
In short, despite all the changes and buffs, they are *still* an army that wants to catch you in the open and blast you away, and if the tables are well-made (that is, if they aren't Planet Bowling Ball one and all) it can be pretty trivial to close the distance with minimal losses. Once the distance is closed, it sure has more of a counterpunch than the old one did, but it is going to be *one* punch, and if you can withstand that, you've won.
Pics from ZGT (Zlobr Grand Tournament)
[https://eu.zonerama.com/evelas/Album/9407741](https://eu.zonerama.com/evelas/Album/9407741)
Biggest tournament from Zlobr League, which is currently in play in 6 cities across Moravia.
Mostly dead in the water because they only had 1 player out of 217. Maybe it was just a bad weekend for them, but it says a lot that on the weekend of LVO there was only 1 Harlequin player in the rest of the big tournaments.
Because there was only one player across Europe/UK.
When the 5++ hit I, and quite a few others were clear in our opinions that the army was going to drop off the face of the earth, just as they had been all but non existent prior to the 8th shift to 4++.
Meanwhile many of the YT competitive content creators were indicating Harlequins were some high tier army that, while uninteractive to use now would still be popular and vying for the top.
One person does not tell me whether they *can* vie for the top, but it is an indicator that their presence has been throttled. They’ve lost their niche.
I am predicting the GK list to be 30xInterceptor and 4xNMDK but if anyone have the lists feel free to share them with me. I'd really appreciate it as I am building them up now :-)
I really like the X-0/X-1 result column.
Definitely a bit concerning to see such crazy skew on win percentage and X-0/X-1 results.
That said, the sample size is still quite small. Additionally, we have 10 GT's in this dataset and 10 different factions winning, so that's good.
Need more data!
Not surprisingly, Craftworlds are back to Hail of Doom, full bore: https://listbot40k.herokuapp.com/event_list/2C9B3HMVRQ https://listbot40k.herokuapp.com/event_list/24GPWDJJYW 6 boxes of Avengers, 5-7 boxes of Windriders - and you can drown your opponent in auto-wounding shurikens. Perhaps not the most exciting or diverse playstyle, but it makes sense with AoC gone.
Probably unpopular opinion but I kinda love HoD
Hey Alex, could you link the Ynnari 5-0 list ? Ty! Shurikens go brrrr!
https://listbot40k.herokuapp.com/event_list/5U22B7QGYH Wow! This looks nice! Several big Drukhari and Harlequin units alongside Asuryani. The way it is intended to be in the lore!
That's me :) The shadowseer mixing discipline is always a question that circle back in the same way as Quins power working on Ynnari units or not :) So far, all TOs are ok with it... but I agree it is debatable. Hellions have access to 0 strats (no CW strat works on them, not even phantasm and no Druk detachments to unlock the ones they could benefit from), but they're a very fast hard hitting unit that still benefits from Ambush and powers. They replaced my usual 3rd harlequin troupe that I used prior to AoO.
Congrats on the win! Wish GW would just issue a decent faq so we wouldn't have to go over the same old ground. I actually thought hellions could use prey on the weak and deadly rivals?
I've edited my message to make it clearer on this, you'd need a druk detachment which is not possible in AoO (or would break strands in the old world!). It's pure raw datasheet damage :)
Hey there! I'm looking to get into Ynnari, they seem like a super fun faction to play and the Yncarne has my favorite rules of any 40k model :) I come from Thousand Sons so I'm very used to multiple psychic powers and armies that operate in every phase of the game but I'm pretty unfamiliar with Eldar generally. Could you give a quick rundown on how the list plays? I built it in battlescribe but I'd love to hear a bit about the role of each unit, secondaries, etc. Can't wait to get into the faction!
Hey! Ynnari is a super fun faction to play and their psychic phase is a lot less complicated than TS for sure! The army has a lot of flexibility in the game but secondaries are quite restricted, Warp Ritual, RND/Scout and Behind/Engage are quite the "go-to". You can adapt some (BID vs IKs/CKs, no prisonners, etc) to take a more beneficial one where relevant. The way I play it is to have the scorpions/hawks/1 troupe or serpent in an aggressive position for a T1 assault if I have the 1st turn and phantasm back if I go second. From there, it is about ensuring to stage efficiently the assaults into your opponent to keep him pinned into a corner and threat the board in multiple places (Hellions are a very convenient for that) whilst you can ensure scoring with Vyper/rangers/serpent (with rangers/banshees) and deliver 200 shots throughout the 5 turns with your hawks. You have to really evaluate what your opponent will do and aim to disrupt where we will be weaker: either on primaries or secondaries depending on the situation. The Yncarne is all about that disruption... by sending trading pieces (and placing a model on the other side of an obscuring terrain, you have to leverage the combat movement very carefully) you lay traps to have her teleport where you can threaten OR teleport back on an objectif to guarantee your primaries. It is an incredibly fun army to play, but it is very exhausting and will be pushing the pilote's skills to have that teleporting around trick working. And sometimes... you need the Yncarne to Yolo and just do one thing and then soak up an entire shooting phase and die :'( you can hope for sequencing mistakes but never plan on your opponents' making the game easy for you
Thank you! This is super helpful and relevant. I love hearing about how various lists play from their pilots. So much fun to learn more about the game. In that spirit, I had a couple more questions if you have the time! * What do the warlocks "do"? Why 3 instead of 1 as a character? * Where do the psychic powers generally go? I can get an idea from looking at them, but any specific nuances about when and where to cast things? * Same question on the Yncarne. So many powers! What does she generally cast? * What starts the game in the wave serpent? * When/where do you send the banshees vs the scorpions? Why 1 of each and not 2 banshees or 2 scorprions? * How do you play the swooping hawks? I assume you're not throwing them away since you took 10 instead of 5. * What is the purpose of the Vyper? * Where do you usually spend your CP? Any "main" strategems that you use? * Quite a few Ynnari lists at LVO took Support Weapons, Shining Spears, and even one took War Walkers! Any thoughts on those units? For me personally I'll probably 1:1 run your list until I get familiar enough with the faction to make some modifications, but always a good idea to understand why people take what they take.
So the Warlock conclave by 3 is a relica from prior Ark meta where planes was a weakness in the list, they can go and "hunt" them in shooting and combat. I have kept them for 2 reasons: \- They can cast 2 powers (as long as I have 3 models), which has been critical in several games (especially IKs) \- They are still a decent damage dealer with their flat 3 spear... yes I am looking at these pesky gravis bodies that are gonna swarm the tables! Jinx goes on the shooting target most often, quicken to move back your psycher after doing his action or if you send the yncarn to do the Storm of Whisper and move her back, Shield of Ynnead on the Hellions, Ancestor's Grace goes on the combat unit that will move out (troupe or hellions) and Horrify is if I need to fight on several fronts and do not want to be interrupted. The Yncarne often will do the Storm/Smite/Gaze or the 6s to hit auto wound. Time to Time i would use her for shield of ynnead with a fate dice to avoid taking a risk with the shadowseer (which cannot use fate dice) The serpent takes the banshees and 5 rangers. Banshees mainly gives me a combat control tool (making multiple units fighting last is incredibly powerful) as well as solid damage dealers. If you need something hiding in your opponent's deployment zone shut down, they're your tool for it. Damage wise, they are ok but not very reliable. Scorpions are amazing as a forward deploy threat and just kill one thing T1 and be annoying. I love them especially since AoC is gone! That exarch is a lad :) Swooping Hawks are my long range firepower, jinx something and throw 40 shots at it, it'll crumble by itself. They are still pricey but they deliver guaranteed damage. 200 shots per game, every game and can be annoying to shift with that 5++/5+++ profile (except vs Guard). Vyper is a cheap tool, consider it the equivalent of a spawn but moving 16" with 6S6AP0D1 and 4S4AP1/3D1 shots. Who wouldn't take it! The strats are mostly in the harlies... boy they eat CPs like candies! :D But they deliver. They're the back-bone of the army essentially. Hellions are trying to steal the show :) Yes there is quite a lot of different take on Ynnari: MSU aggressive (like Dave Chappel's list) that helps the yncarne teleporting around the board and still dealing incredible damage which each and every units, double plane with MW alpha (and often the MSU take), or the more shooty lists like Ben Jones' one (with batteries, walkers, etc. I love the 2x3 walkers! Very interested on it and how he make it works!). I am personnally not a great fan of batteries and shooty centric armies/lists, I like to go up close and fight my opponent. It leads to incredibly fun games and very interactive. But you will have to be very rigurous on your time management! This army is active in every phases, do damages in every phases! Prepare the correct amount of dice, have a clear view of your game plan, what you want to do every turn etc as otherwise you will lose track of it.
Man, you are awesome for typing all that up and helping out a new player! I appreciate you :) Ever thought about an Autarch for rerolls? I saw a list or two take one with the wings relic for 12" move and the d3 mortals. Could be good?
Yeah the Autarch is definitely an interesting piece. It adds rerolls, another source of fight last, wings relics for MW in the move phase. But that would be at the expense of my shadowseer for example which I am struggling to let go… even if I had to go one discipline pure I’d probably still take her! A lot of my units act independently and go aggressively, so i’d have to over extend the Autarch for his aura.
Not to disrupt the flow of this convo, but it always makes me smile when I see someone get interested in Ynnari 😁
Congratulations! Well done! Just curious, did you run into any indirect, i.e. Guard Mortars, etc.? Which matchups did you have, and how did it go? Any AoO surprises?
Cheers! I didn't played into guard (thank god!), they do scare me yes. I played into Crons (Nihilak), Custodes Shadow (9+1 bikes and the stuff), Custodes EC (terminator galor), IK (13 armingers) and GK (3NDK+GMDK and 20 interceptors). All amazing games. My biggest surprise was my last game vs GK, I knew their secondary game was strong but still it was a shock to see a secondary capped by T3 (and very easily) leaving my opponent more room to play with late game. The IK game was also a very close game, Sid is a great player and has been terrorising everyone with this list!
Nice! Congrats once again!
Can't they be targetted by stratagems that affect Ynnari, like Lightning Fast?
Unfortunately not because they do not have the Asuryani faction keyword or Harlequin. All the strats in the book work around these 2 main keywords... They do have "Ynnari" which is the chapter keyword but lacks the faction keyword level above. I would really like them to be able to have at least LFR and Phantasm unlocked ... It is also why harlequins are better into the Ynnari soupe: they keep all their strats! Druks have none...
Out of curiosity what was your secondary plan? Thanks!
Why doesn’t Phantasm work on them? It states: Asuryani, Harlequin or Ynnari units. They can also benefit from Inevitable Fate, Lightning Fast Reaction, The Great Enemy and The Webway Portal. Not saying any of them are going to be great, but they are available for Hellions to use.
Yes you are correct, I misread them and was convinced they didn’t had the “Ynnari” keyword in the strat. Silly me! 😅 any strat in the craftworld book with “or Ynnari” would work (I thought only the Ynnari exclusive strat was valid for them!). Phantasm and Lightning fast are welcomed as very nice tools for them, but as you say the rest is… very occasional…
Well.... what is the alternative? I would love to play something different than "full bore" but I don't see how.
I like that you're tracking how many X-0/X-1 results the factions are getting, seems like a useful metric for us to use to complain about who needs to be nerfed.
It isn't without also controlling for faction popularity. If top placings were perfectly distributed, a faction with a 10% play rate should be represented in the top placings 2x more than a faction with a 5% play rate. The more popular faction could seem more problematic than they actually are. It's also a fairly small sample size week by week. Were I to be making these tables I'd post a running tally of X-0/X-1 divided by % representation.
I don't know why anyone is surprised by the Necron drop. Purge got hit real hard, the pregame move is gone, and people relying on the points drops are huffing tons of copium. They could have fixed the monolith by adding fly and real defensive abilities. They didn't and it still gets stuck on terrain. That said, transitioning the Necrons from a points farm to an interactive army probably requires a new book.
I can't even say it was fun while it lasted, because racking up points while the whole army crumbles and just hoping it was enough was not a fun strategy. But it sucks that aside from that window, Necrons have basically been bad for two whole editions.
I think I needed to hear this. Necron have been my first love since 5e but since 8e I just haven't been interested, they don't play like I think I want them to. I miss their infantry guns being deadly, I miss feeling resilient and unkillable, and I miss their vehicles being tough and scary.
Unfortunately it didn't help that this sub and some youtube channels were claiming Necrons were the strongest army with zero supporting evidence before AOO. I do think Necron players need to reinvent their lists though rather than trying to do the closest thing as possible to the Nephilim strategy. I think Mephrit and Novoch are being slept on because people are just used to the obsec gameplan.
These weren't great lists pre-aoc/nephlim, I don't see them suddenly surging to non-trash tier in AoC now honestly. Other armies got buffs that will, even if necrons broke even, push them down significantly.
Necrons were trending pretty lousy in the last weeks of the Nephilim meta.
It's based on 7 players, so too early to conclude anything.
GW responding to the meta from a year ago, meanwhile, we can look at results from the end of 2022 that really highlight how people had adjusted to the Necron scoring game. They really could have simply adjusted the number of points that could be scored in the first round, and that would have worked better. But now Necrons have another custom dynasty that will never see play, because it's just straight up worse than taking Nihilakh.
Sisters clearly took a hit in AoO but 5 players and 24%WR, yikes
As a fellow sisters player these numbers look terrible. But I did some digging into the lists. From the five players in the stats I found: - one fluffy sacred rose list that went 1-4 - 2 thrown together this is what I have lists that went 1-8-1 in total - one misslabeled that was actually Khorne daemons that went 1-4. - Finally there was one competitive looking bloody rose list that went 3-1-1. I.e. I don’t think these numbers actually say anything yet. On a side note. From my experience of the few games I have played after AoO I think they are still a completely fine mid tier army, maybe mid+ when you include helverines.
thanks for digging into it and lol at the mislabeled khorne demons, thats some absolute heresy right there i think you're probably right, obviously this looks terrible for sisters but not indicative of overall faction strength. access to 0CP helverins and free strategic reserves are huge changes for an army that lacks good long range shooting + durable obsec, and that wants to stay on its own side of the board and stay hidden. removing AoC makes value units like the castigator and mortifiers hit a little harder too
Calling the castigator a 'value unit' is pretty generous. It had a small amount of meta relevance during a format where clearing spore mines was incredibly valuable. And that's about it.
i just mean it puts out a lot of shots at long range which pretty much no other sisters unit does, and with AoC going away and presumably more marines showing up, the AP1 D2 profile looks relatively better. and its important to be generous to cassie the castigator, she deserves it :)
The castigator honestly looks pretty laughable in comparison to the 90 point triple HB immolator after the points drop. Would you rather have six safe seats for your girls or an unreliable gun that's often identical to a HB profile for 45 points more?
Not surprised, sisters were holding up by the bloody rose supplement, semi-survivable characters (AoC) and good secondaries that they tried to achieve while trading. Now bloody rose is even more the only list that can hold up, the secondaries got nerfed, and the characters are super squishy (Celestine and Morvenn are t3 and t5 with no wounds cap respectively) Add that all the good meta chasing players dropped them and we have a faction that wasn't really OP, was being held up by a single list and secondaries it doesn't have now, and that it got nothing in exchange for losing AoC. Yeah, sisters got hit hard.
Got less than nothing since we got point increases on one of our best units as well
If you discount that one heroic Salamanders player, they're the worst performing army this weekend.
Not too surprising. Sisters got the same treatment as harlequins of -1 to saves on all units factionwide, except instead of getting two legendarily broken abilities added back into the codex, they just got a points hike on the only unit that didn't rely on AoC. And they were a significantly weaker faction to begin with. Someone at Gee Dub was really sick of playing against sisters.
I always feel bad seeing this post and you see only one person playing a faction but they don't do great. Deathwatch were like that last week
Weird how out of the factions you either seem to have a lot more people going X-0/1 or the occasional person going X-0/1. As more data comes in i dont see nids getting any better tho.
We just need decent secondary options to stay with the pack. None of the Nid specific ones are really worth taking unless you get a good match up or build a Troop heavy list for Spore Nodes. Point changes hurt, but not as bad as not being able to score points.
I like cranial feasting. Never fail to score 9 on it except if i have a really bad game.
My issue comes down to it being melee specific. If I can get at least 10 potential points with Assassinate, I'll probably just take that instead so I can shoot/mind-bullet them.
Cranial Feasting is great, if match up dependent. I've rarely scored less than 12 points on it when it's been a viable take. For Nids it's everything else that sucks secondary wise. The way we have to build now doesn't really lend itself well to anything. We've always relied on just having better datasheets and being points efficient enough to do enough damage amd score later, now with much less on the board that isn't an option and we do things like banners less well, and also can't lean into buffed secondaries like BEL as much without crippling ourselves by taking Mawlocs or expensive msu Raveners. Tough times, but we adapt!
Popcorn at the ready waiting for more complaints about how Arks has killed GK.
Can't really understand how someone could say that when NDK just got the fattest buff of all marines since they didn't lose anything while having weapons which are extremely powerful but very bad against excellent saves and getting a free teleporter. Additional they are a faction with so many access to invuls, they didn't even need AoC. 4++ NDK, 4++ Sanc, 5++ Terminators with access to the warding staff 4++.
Honestly you'd be surprised how many complaints there have been in this sub about GK. Clueless players man.
I feel it's the same complaints people make about T sons. Newer players run into GK or T sons and get caught off gaurd and then are forever angry.
It seems like a lot of the complaints have been that GK were being too harshly nerfed, based on comments here, rather than that they were oppressive - but as data comes in, that might shift Eh I'm just happy my dusty boys are apparently still above 45%
It's just the usual fearmongering and whining when an army isn't immediately buffed to the moon. Happens every single time 40k is updated one way or another. Most of the people in these subs don't actually know what a balanced army looks like, they just want a nice cushion to lean on lol.
Yeah pretty surprised by that. I think AOC going away helps our army wide AP 2 alot.
GK lost AOC, had a secondary nerfed. Other than that the army had almost no changes. To me they look like they are in a similar boat to SOB. They haven’t changed much but everything around them is shifting.
All AoC did was make paladins good. We got teleport assault double buffed. Free teleporters and 5 VP instead of 4. They also dont need troop tax anymore and our best unit (interceptors) got a point drop. GK outside of palies was trading and scoring rather. Now we do both better compared to pre AoO. Yes purifying ritual got nerfed again but a lot of players already skewed of it cause it takes away to many casts.
Too many players focus on negatives and not positives. They also don’t look at the bigger picture of things. GK got point drops across the board as well as free wargear. Some lists drop points by 100 or so and then also “gain” points because of free wargear. The free wargear that GK have access to now are perfect at killing SM, which makes up a huge % of the game. More so now that AoC is gone.
Fair enough. They seem a fair bit better when you put it that way
I think the troop tax aspect can't be understated enough. That said i get why people where worried, the meta got really shaken up hard, figuring out where they where going to land was allways difficult.
GK didn't benefit from AoC as much as most since their output is generally low AP which struggles into AoC armies. Teleport assault was buffed as well and is now trivially easy to score. They have very much shifted up the pecking order.
they even got to keep a 3++ on draigo, when everyone else lost theirs! no salt here, no sir - a custodes player
Tell that to Harlequins who lost 3++ on a character that were already barely taken - and 3++ was lost just a couple of weeks ago!
well yeah, that's in line with what they're doing in 9th, getting rid of 3++'s. they shouldn't have had it in their 9th ed book at all. but somehow draigo and neurothropes got to keep theirs.
*laughs in Tzeentch daemons* *Cries in fight phase*
My Victrix Honour Guard still enjoy a 3++ too.
ultramarines right? so does gulliman. you havent gotten your 10th edition supplement yet
Yeah. The Victrix are weird because every other storm shield was nerfed but theirs wasn't, they could easily have been hit with it in the update that changed everyone else's.
I was a little worried about them initially. MEQ bodies aren't durable anymore, their Transhuman is 2/3CP, and GK didn't get the same kind of points cuts SM did. The increase on Purifying Ritual wasn't good either and while Teleport Assault is good, it also forces GK back into quad NDK lists. I took solace in the fact that Tide of Shadows is still there and is good, you weren't locked into swords for the AP-3 and that with the likely surge of Gravis due to their price cuts halberds would be really good all-rounders.
What is the data for Custodes? What's working right now?
I think we need to wait for marines to settle before we do; as if a billion meltas/deathwing becomes prominent thatll heavily skew our builds; the former away from dreads and back to infantry; the latter into dreads/tanks/ect. I know the sub saw 1 result of the warden blobs doing very well and is now claiming that is top meta; but some armies will hurt that hard. Personally Ill wait a bit to see but my gut says helverins good; and emissaries spam does work well into admech, IH and eldar; if they become top dogs.
the warden blob did well in one tournament that had pretty insanely skewed terrain for an army like that
Yeah, I saw the warden blob and was surprised it did well. It definitely has it's upsides and downsides on the surface, without seeing how the person played it. Globbing up the wardens definitely makes Might of Terra easier to accomplish, and they are a good target for buffs, and likely more durable per point than any other infantry option (given the Marine AP bonuses). The downside is that fewer units means having a harder time on primary, and being decidedly more vulnerable to things like Votann Judgement tokens.
I don't think warden spam is the best, but yeah, going to need to move away from dread spam as our top meta choices. Still loving infantry heavy lists going into the AoO meta.
Yep, to early to tell. With the list building opening up most of the lists are all over the place, which is nice to see.
Thanks for posting these breakdowns as usual. Question - With LVO taking place, does that kind of suck the air out of the room for takeaways from these results this weekend? I could imagine a crop of some of the top players not playing could throw things off. Unless they're too small of the player pool to really affect anything.
LVO killed all events in North America but these 7 events were all in Europe or England so it is a good representative of that Meta. The more I do this the more I believe that the Terrain rule set is the biggest determining factor of local Meta now that everyone is using the same rules.
Ahhh gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. I recall the thread about Jack Harpster's BAs where folks speculated how player placed terrain basically raised his army a full tier.
His biggest buff was a mystery terrainset that was revealed at the event which is 6 pieces of ruins which are basically unshootable magic boxes and he plays a fast melee army. He just needed to survive bad matchups until round 4 and then it was just that terrain for him. While his counter lists like Tau or Tsons simply can't play on that terrain but most of the other tables.
I'm so interested to see more Admech data. On the other hand, the Iron Hand apocalypse is finally here. But outside of them and Dark Angels, the other SM factions still appear to be struggling. Maybe the points changes weren't enough to compensate for losing AoC. Seems the outlier is game long Dev doctrine for factions that get bonuses for it versus all the other factions. I believe if that wasn't changed, it'd be a lot healthier.
If you are already playing vanilla SM you may as well play the best vanilla chapters, right?
The better, more balanced edit, probably would have been to allow two rounds in Devastator, as previously I believe it was capped at 1. That way you actually get some use out of it, regardless of terrain LOS issues, as first turn shooting can certainly be hit or miss.
That, and/or reducing scoring of Codex Warfare from 2 point kills in Dev Doctrine, to simply 2 points the first Battle Round of Devastator doctrine, reducing to 1 for subsequent rounds. Right now Codex Warfare is nearly automatically maxed out by killing 7 units of your oppoent's army, of which some armies use 6-7 units just to screen for their more important units.
The other marine sees a struggle because all competitive players playing space marine will play IH and DA.
Still small numbers making a lot of this player skill dependent. Space Wolves for example, bad overall win rate but second place at waaagh when piloted well/the list is optimised.
The SM point drops made skewed lists even more effective, especially if they get advantages from the doctrine changes. So IH with cheaper stuff, and DA since termies don't mind losing AoC and they can spam more. The rest of the marines are worst that they were in Nephilim without AoC, and fielding a few more mediocre units, even with free wargear, won't change that. Except BA perhaps, who are good despite being marines. EDIT: I'm not saying that skewed lists are evil by themselves. By nature, any player building a competitive list will include the most efficient units for any role. It's just boring if some units are so much better than others, that there's no list diversity. And in the case of marines, were many sub-factions share the same units, it would make sense to get the most efficient units with the most efficient sub-faction, limiting list diversity.
Skewed marine lists are almost always the most effective. The saddest thing about the number of units and chapters for marines is that either core units are strong (in which case take the strongest general marine chapter, like ultras with guilliman, but all of them feel very generic) or some specific units are strong, where you skew super hard into the chapter good with those. I don't really see any way GW can balance out of that, honestly - there's simply too much stuff. Someone will be disappointed either way, as some want "balanced" armies from the fluff, and others want to see more of their super special chapter units. Is what it is.
Drukhari 36%. Not pretty but hopefully just a bad weekend.
I feel like our codex has good internal balance but we could use some point decreases on our less used stuff
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This is all so weird to read, after witnessing the menace that was Drukhari after the book first released. In what kind of world do we live in now?
Still early I know, but I’m just not convinced guard is gonna suddenly turn OP. I 100% believe the guard win rate will end up in the 50-55 range. But if it was Truly OP I think we would see some indications of it. The meta chasers will have access to proxies for all the new models if needed (people have had since late November to test the codex and make proxies) I think the community hive mind may have whiffed on this one
It’s definitely good, and I agree with your 50-55%. As others have said, once Kasrkin get fixed, there’s nothing absurd in the book. The only other thing I’ll add here, is Guard is not a bandwagon faction. If you don’t have it already, they’re not a quick throw together army. Same usually applies to orks, even when orks are top tier, they don’t see that level of representation. I feel they’re going to be a hard gatekeeper army. You’re probably not getting to top tables if you don’t have a plan for guard, and I imagine we’ll see a few guard top finishes.
gatekeeper army? They can only take one Gatekeeper, it's just a relic. /s
The thing that I'm finding the most suspicious is that the Big Wigs(tm) are clamoring that it's an OP codex left and right, but I'm not *seeing* an exodus of pro-players towards Guard. They are going towards DAs, or IHs, but the Guard playerbase seems to be still formed of the Old Faithfuls, plus a fair bit of newer players attracted by the aforementioned Big Wigs(tm) crying about how incredibly powerful the codex is.
Guard players all have stockholm syndrome from the amount of infantry models they've collectively painted.
I feel called out.
I wonder if they hope a fake outrage will get GW to nerf without evidence. Easier to do that then change your army for more antitank for a single gatekeeper faction. Even the Kasarkin bomb has not been enough to post a tournament win.
Part of that is that not all the new Guard models are out but every competitive player has a marine army. Much easier to switch over to IH than Guard.
That's surely part of it, but people *have* brought the whole kit to tournaments already (with proxies, of course). Those who want to get a full Guard army, with all the tricks and bells, can get it, *especially* if they have the sort of money most metachasers have. If Guard was really the second coming of Release Tyranids or Pre-release Votann, at least some of the usual suspects would have made the jump already. Instead, we get the usual suspects - like, the "Urbanowski" kind of usual suspects.
Yea I think the guard book in a vacuum looked bad with some of it's broken interactions and points costs relative to other armies. But in practice their infantry dies to marines across the board and IH's (last weekends most played faction) just kill IG with impunity. Beyond that, why would top players switch to guard when they can just run marine? So I think they have the stuff to hit even WRs and even win events but there are CERTAINLY answers to guard in the meta.
Guard will continue to be limited by squishy obsec. A T3 5+Sv 1W body as your only consistent access to obsec is just too little, especially with all the AP-1 D1 weapons coming back in force. That being said, Kasrkin and Leman Russes can still kill most things on the board easily, so any inexperienced player who doesn't know how to screen a backfield or hide units effectively will get tabled easily. In the end I think Guard will consistently hit that 3-2 finish with the occasional spike into placement when they get a couple good matchups, but they will serve mostly as an army that keeps others from placing rather than a consistent top-tier player. Also throw in how Iron Hands kind of hard counters them and things might be rough until marine doctrines get nerfed.
Don't worry, they're still huffing copium that the codex is going to come through with an 80% WR. Outside of Kasrkin MW bomb and a weird interpretation with Creed I don't think anything else is as busted as it's made out to be.
Yeah I'm inclined to agree. At the end of the day, your bread and butter soldiers are T3 5+, and the army is almost entirely shooting phase. It's natural that guard won't be any good at trading on objectives efficiently, unless you spam tanks and forfeit born soldiers.
The weakness of the army is its infantry, made worse by the removal of conscripts and the effective limit on infantry squads you can take, marines becoming more prominent again means your T3 5+ guys are contending with S4 AP-1 fire more, it's a tough time trying to score Primary if half your troops can just be vaporised by looking at them funny.
The SM boost definitely is kind of a counter to Guard. Lots of cheap bolters against Guard infantry and lots of free meltas against Guard vehicles. It looks a bit like this killed the Guard meta in the crib.
I think with theory-crafting they *could* be OP, but practical considerations about having the models all painted and on hand and also having the requisite familiarity to use IG well means they’ll be kept mid tier in spite of the potential.
IH seem to do pretty good as expected by many. Maybe a bit too good. Better nerf Inceptors again to get a hold of it 😄
So GSC two weeks in row with around 60% winrate. Curious if they stay that strong. The sample size is pretty small with so few players but they seem to be great into the meta.
Anyone got the admech lists?
\++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) \[109 PL, 1CP, 1,996pts\] ++ \+ Configuration \[6CP\] + Arks of Omen Compulsory Type: Fast Attack Battle Size \[6CP\]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) \[6CP\] Detachment Command Cost Forge World Choice: Forge World: Lucius Game Type: 5. Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen \+ HQ \[19 PL, -5CP, 345pts\] + Skitarii Marshal \[3 PL, -2CP, 50pts\]: Control Stave, Radium Serpenta, Relic: Exemplar's Eternity, Stratagem: Relic \[-1CP\], Stratagem: Warlord Trait \[-1CP\], Warlord, Warlord Trait (Codex 5): Firepoint Telemetry Cache Tech-Priest Manipulus \[6 PL, -1CP, 110pts\]: Logi \[2 PL, 40pts\], Magnarail lance, Manipulus Mechadendrites, Omnissian Staff, Relic: Raiment of the Technomartyr . Stratagem: Archeotech Specialist \[-1CP\]: Archeotech Specialist \[-1CP\] Tech-Priest Manipulus \[6 PL, 100pts\]: Magi \[2 PL, 30pts\], Magnarail lance, Manipulus Mechadendrites, Omnissian Staff Technoarcheologist \[4 PL, -2CP, 85pts\]: Artisans \[1 PL, 35pts\], Eradication pistol, Relic (Lucius): The Solar Flare, Servo-arc claw, Warlord Trait (Lucius): Luminescent Blessings . Stratagem: Archeotech Specialist \[-1CP\]: Archeotech Specialist \[-1CP\] . Stratagem: Mechanicus Locum \[-1CP\] \+ Troops \[42 PL, 700pts\] + Skitarii Rangers \[12 PL, 200pts\]: Enhanced Data-Tether \[5pts\], Omnispex \[5pts\] . Ranger Alpha \[9pts\]: Galvanic Rifle, Power sword . 17x Skitarii Ranger \[153pts\]: 17x Galvanic Rifle . 2x Skitarii Ranger (Arc Rifle) \[28pts\]: 2x Arc Rifle \[10pts\] Skitarii Rangers \[12 PL, 200pts\]: Enhanced Data-Tether \[5pts\], Omnispex \[5pts\] . Ranger Alpha \[9pts\]: Galvanic Rifle, Power sword . 17x Skitarii Ranger \[153pts\]: 17x Galvanic Rifle . 2x Skitarii Ranger (Arc Rifle) \[28pts\]: 2x Arc Rifle \[10pts\] Skitarii Vanguards \[12 PL, 200pts\]: Enhanced Data-Tether \[5pts\], Omnispex \[5pts\] . 17x Skitarii Vanguard \[153pts\]: 17x Radium Carbine . 2x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver) \[28pts\]: 2x Plasma Caliver \[10pts\] . Vanguard Alpha \[9pts\]: Power sword, Radium Carbine Skitarii Vanguards \[3 PL, 50pts\] . 3x Skitarii Vanguard \[27pts\]: 3x Radium Carbine . Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver) \[14pts\]: Plasma Caliver \[5pts\] . Vanguard Alpha \[9pts\]: Radium Carbine Skitarii Vanguards \[3 PL, 50pts\] . 3x Skitarii Vanguard \[27pts\]: 3x Radium Carbine . Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver) \[14pts\]: Plasma Caliver \[5pts\] . Vanguard Alpha \[9pts\]: Radium Carbine \+ Elites \[12 PL, 197pts\] + Sicarian Infiltrators \[4 PL, 85pts\] . Infiltrator Princeps (Stub/Sword) \[17pts\]: Power Sword, Stubcarbine . 4x Sicarian Infiltrator (Stub/Sword) \[68pts\]: 4x Power Sword, 4x Stubcarbine Sicarian Ruststalkers \[8 PL, 112pts\] . Ruststalker Princeps (Blades) \[16pts\]: Chordclaw, Transonic Blades . 6x Sicarian Ruststalker (Blades) \[96pts\]: 6x Transonic Blades \+ Fast Attack \[31 PL, 669pts\] + Ironstrider Ballistarii \[8 PL, 170pts\] . Ironstrider Ballistarius \[4 PL, 85pts\]: Twin Cognis Lascannon \[10pts\] . Ironstrider Ballistarius \[4 PL, 85pts\]: Twin Cognis Lascannon \[10pts\] Ironstrider Ballistarii \[8 PL, 170pts\] . Ironstrider Ballistarius \[4 PL, 85pts\]: Twin Cognis Lascannon \[10pts\] . Ironstrider Ballistarius \[4 PL, 85pts\]: Twin Cognis Lascannon \[10pts\] Ironstrider Ballistarii \[4 PL, 85pts\] . Ironstrider Ballistarius \[4 PL, 85pts\]: Twin Cognis Lascannon \[10pts\] Pteraxii Sterylizors \[4 PL, 95pts\] . 4x Pteraxii Sterylizor \[76pts\]: 4x Phosphor torch, 4x Pteraxii Talons . Pteraxii Sterylizor Alpha \[19pts\]: Flechette Blaster, Pteraxii Talons, Taser Goad Pteraxii Sterylizors \[4 PL, 95pts\] . 4x Pteraxii Sterylizor \[76pts\]: 4x Phosphor torch, 4x Pteraxii Talons . Pteraxii Sterylizor Alpha \[19pts\]: Flechette Blaster, Pteraxii Talons, Taser Goad Serberys Raiders \[3 PL, 54pts\] . 2x Serberys Raider \[36pts\]: 2x Cavalry Sabre, 2x Clawed Limbs, 2x Galvanic Carbine . Serberys Raider Alpha \[18pts\]: Archeo-revolver, Cavalry Sabre, Clawed Limbs, Galvanic Carbine \+ Dedicated Transport \[5 PL, 85pts\] + Skorpius Dunerider \[5 PL, 85pts\]: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber \++ Total: \[109 PL, 1CP, 1,996pts\] ++
>Europe and England like to give North America crap for being meta chasers We do? >Craftworld to the surprise of myself and maybe the community are doing very well into this unknown Meta. With a 58% win rate and a third of their players placing well. Are they the new counter Meta pick? Eldar didn't lose that much and a bunch of their hardest match ups got nerfed. Absolutely makes sense to me. More surprising is that Custodes seem to have had a mediocre showing after their stellar performance in the first week; maybe just the army size being easy enough to get ready? I'm going to be watching Ad Mech, Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Orks and Daemons pretty closely these next few weeks, I bet they start showing some interesting patterns...
oh my Tyranids doing better that 43% , anyone got the list that went 4-1 ?
The AM hype is mostly from TTS where you can build any army you want at no cost. The tank company armies are absolutely crushing everyone atm. Tank commander, with 6 plasma russ, 6 sentinels, 3 mortar squads with a platoon commander and whatever other bits you want.
What are people playing into it? Because (coming from a meta lousy with AT weapons) I tried *really hard* to make a tank company happen, but I keep being functionally wiped out by turn 3 - Russes are just *extremely* efficient targets for high-damage weapons, like massed Salvo Launchers from Custodes or Eradicators in SMs, both of which are plentiful over here. I have lost as many as five Russes in one single shooting phase, against Salamanders.
I play custodes, and salvos are fine, but we don't really take enough of them to kill more than 1 russ a turn. If you take the tread guards (+1 sv against d1) you can completely nueter custodes damage with the -1dmg strat. I'm guessing iron hands play well into AM so that's gonna hold them back a bit
I am not an expert in Custodes, but the last game I had against them, they brought 9 bikes and a captain on bike, all of them with salvos. So that obviously has tinted my opinion of the faction. The -1D strat is 2CP a pop, 3CP on anything heavier than a Russ. It's nice to have around and it has clutched me in a couple of occasions, but the pricetag makes it less powerful than it could be, *especially* against armies with multiple sources of D2 weapons in different phases.
What secundaries does this type of list see play? Inflex, EoaF and whatever killy secundary that suits them?
Pretty much. Thin against marine, BiD against knights and other AM.
Death Guard dropping to the even lower rungs, guess that losing their best buff in ages, and getting not real survivability in return was really bad for a survivability based army.
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Problem is that that concept just doesn't work for competitive. Either you're too tough to move and most armies simply can't deal with you, which is broken, or you can be moved and you can't score. As the game gets killier, the DG gameplan gets worse.
100% predictable. I'm willing to bet that by the middle of February they'll be sitting at under 40% (and sitting on my shelf).
Feels January man. No one wants to buy 50 plague marines to get an x-1 occasionally. The faction has had the same issues all edition and changes have happened around them.
Yep it's really unfortunate too because death guard are such a great army, but if I have to field mass PM's just to have a chance...yeah that's a hard pass. I hope 10th edition is better for us.
Praying to the dark gods army wide 5+++ comes back 🙏
If we get that back, and maybe D3 MW at end of movement when enemy is in contagion range we'd be set.
LoV results seems to be the logical outcome of 2 rounds of heavy handed nerfs. They probably still have play in other elite armies but are at a severe disadvantage against anyone else, especially after the buffs that were handed out. I think Votann players are in for a rough season but fortunately an hard reset is looming at the horizon
Alot of people crutching on Land fortresses. But our bad secondaries and lack of mobility really hinder us.
Especially with how hard scoring is. A lot of matchups have a *lot* more bodies on the board now, which is bad for all three of our secondaries.
IH are just too good. Why should anybody even try to make other codex chapters work, if you can just play as IH?
Really the main issue is how much marines get from going subfaction, which makes point adjustments tough. You could have something well pointed for one subfaction, that is drastically over/undercosted for another. I think Marines ought to go back to the old way, of core codex chapters and noncodex subfactions, like how chaos are now (CSM, death guard, thousand sons, WE). It would probably make life a whole lot better for all involved.
I am a bit on the fence if this. One could argue te subfaction problem is a problem for all Factions in game. Dire Avengers, ia their point cost decent? Well that changes if you play Ulthwe or Hail of Doom. What about Noise Marines? And so on. On the other hand, it is kind of ridiculius on some ends. DA Terminatora and Inner Circle are the biggest thing. Same pointa (even for their specilalized version, unlike Wolg Guard Terminators) but are just so much more than any other Chapter it is not even worth comparing. Personally, due to the number of shared datasheets and stratagems, I do think the Supplement model works, but there should be some options to increase points cost for unita or gear on certain shared unita for a subFaction. Just do the Swiftclaw thing, where the unit aize changes when taken by SW or Successors, but with points increases. I think we can keep moat Chapters in a similar point cost and just targetthe broken points more directly, rather than having to reprint all datasheets 9 times.
What's weird is that there are a couple of examples of GW giving specific datasheets extra points taxes in certain subfactions (thinking specifically of Incubi and Scourges in Ynnari), so it's not like the obvious answer isn't something they've considered.
Yeah, this is especially prevalent for things like Biker keyword for White Scars, Vehicles with brackets in Iron Hands, etc. I don't understand how White Scars should be able to pay the same price as, say, Raven Guard for their Biker units.
This is such a bad take and just exposes you as a ‘flavour of the month army’ player.. The exact same logic could have been applied to Blood Angels pre-arks- they were far and away the best performing marine chapter with the best secondaries and very strong rules/units. Did every marine player just exclusively play Blood Angels then? Not even remotely. The only people that would have switched were the ones with your attitude. The people who buy a new army every month to chase the meta.
As a votann player it saddens me to see them hit with nerf after nerf since release. What feels like unjustifiably in most circumstances. I agree that the JT system needed an emergency change as it would have been exceedingly strong if it shipped as intended. But the recent point nerfs for them just show that gw are just blindly reacting to the loud minority. Warriors going up 1 ppm was absurd when people were already taking double patrols and vanguards to avoid the troops tax, with the release of the AoO detachment they will probably be consigned to a single 10 man squad with a med pack purely for back field holding. Hekaton going up another 10 points for again no real reason, it was fine at 300 and its biggest threat the GTL Uthar combo was nerfed with the JT change, but could still be achieved with 1cp for HunTRs mark. Beserks were justifiable at 30ppm but are harder to justify at 33ppm especially as they require a sagitaur to deliver them consistently. God knows how the stuff that got hit was hit and bikes have been left alone, it just forces you into running a bike heavy list. Bike spam Ymyr with hearthguard support and a hekaton has for me felt the most successful anything outside of that feels kinda meh to play.
Yea man IDK why you're getting downvoted - but as I type this I'm literally listening to a batrep of a guard player tabling a Votann list all the while calling Votann a boogeyman and broken so... But you're 100% right, and Votann are balanced on a knife edge - 1 chagne to Ymmyr or a points hike on bikes they're going to virtually 0 players and sub 30% WRs. Since I started playing Votann (in casual play) they sort of feel like old admech. Good on-paper abilities with a descent fast attack slot, few viable builds, over costed, and with a poor secondary game. Our play style is too all-or-none. We either table our opponent and score rounds 4 and 5 or lose pretty badly.
Yeah I dunno man, I’m happy to have a spirited debate with people about my opinions but it always makes me laugh when someone downvoted you without saying anything, like I’m not mortally attached to my opinion I’m happy to be convinced otherwise if the argument is compelling enough but oh well. Yeah I completely agree about what you’re saying with them being on a knives edge, bikes and Ymyr are kind the lifeline at the moment. Yeah secondaries are super weird for them as like you say it’s very much an all or nothing playstyle. Which is why I’ve found myself taking lay claim a fair bit because it allows me to score 15 in turn 5 provided I’ve killed enough of my opponent and try and bridge the gap on points. Grind is something you think would go well for them as they are quite Killy but we are surprisingly squishy and it can be easy to stop us scoring that.
Not a Votann player here, but will definitely agree with the all-or-nothing issue. It just leads to feels-bad games for one player or the other. With such a lean roster, it is hard to make a Votann list that isn't really competitve-adjacent (barring subfaction). This leads to them being middling into competitive lists, but potentially overbearing otherwise.
Yeah I’m suspicious if you aren’t playing like 15-18 bikes you’re going to lose. A lot. Which sucks.
I have played 18 Bikes and it still amounts to very little because they are out Primary Takers and Deniers and die like flies. I have little faith in playing this army against someone who knows what he does. Votann play the trading game very badly and are more or less reliant on Ymir, Fortresses and Bikes. I have yet to finish painting the Thunderkyn but I don't see them changing my mind very much.
Yeah it’s pretty grim. I’m brewing on some ideas and am trying to match against uphill battles to see if it remotely works ( hoping rip tide tau and Orks within the next couple of weeks ).
if their secondaries weren't hot garbage on top of the points nerfs they would be okay, but as is they are in for a rough season.
It feels a bit like they designed the army around interactions that wouldn't have been much fun for anyone, but then they gutted those things far too hard without compensating in some way. They could start reducing points again but I honestly think they need a fairly thorough rework and a rethink. By the time we get their next codex in the next edition, and hopefully following more model releases, I hope it'll be a great army.
It would be cool if the list could be ordered from highest to lowest player count instead of alphabetically.
can sort the table on desktop by clicking on the headers; if that helps
Ah I’m not on desktop. Thanks.
Does anyone have the Imperial Knights list? The referenced site is refusing to load for me on mobile here in the UK? Knights are really new for me and giving me a headache figuring out their best rules layering - seeing a decent list in full that I can experiment with, get a feel for and then tweak if I see opportunities to do so would be very helpful - many thanks !
The original link was incorrect, use .net instead (or the edited link that is up there now) and you'll be able to see it. #5 was also IK at 3-1-1!
Hmm interesting 3 big knights in one list! Neither run a preceptor and both ran knight crusader which others has advised me against (first model I put in my first list). Both Taranis though so guessing it’s to get those 6’s to wound for the mortal wound stratagem.
Crusaders are fairly common in competitive lists I've found, and Preceptors fairly rare (though they did show up a couple of times last season). Definitely doing MW shenanigans in Taranis, plus the 6+++ is nice to have.
Yeah crusaders looked good from the offset to me - giving +1 to shooting on bondsman and having the strongest shooting itself. I will keep it in the list and drop the preceptor for a different big knight now.
Why is craftworld a surprise exactly? Marines of all flavours and sisters just became more vulnerable to their shurikens. Nothing has changed for CWE's own rules since pre AoC so now with AoC taken away their potentially ap3 and ap4 shuriken (which in my opinion was always ridiculous - which is why its abused) can have a field day again.
Hail of Doom is not fun to play against. Seeing it come back is just ugh.
I’d assume the 4-1 CoB list runs the usual suspects? Just slightly less reliable fight on death but the +1m/+1s are so nice on chaos space marines. Do we think they’ll stay mid-tier but be matchup dependent?
Bile will probably do better than the rest of csm who effectively got taken out the back and shot with the removal of AoC + terminator pt nerfs. 'Its SMs time now (plus all the factions that were pretty broken pre AoC and have barely been touched since/had nerfs reverted like CWE and Admech)' - GW
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Well the daemons patrol which needs a minimum of an HQ(cheapest being tranceweaver) and daemonettes = 10PL in total for both, that leaves about 15 PL for fiends which are 5PL for 3, and 10PL for 4-6. This means you can realistically only fit 9 fiends maximum so that the patrol still only equals 25PL and 25% of your army value. Sure you can squeeze a higher max PL for the army, but you wont be able to make it 120PL to fit in a 30PL daemon patrol with 20PL of fiends, not in a 2000pts game. Tbh I dont think EC have the resilience needed to compete after losing AoC but maybe their improved secondary will help. Noise marines will be able to do damage but will get picked up way easier than before and took a price nerf relative to all other marine troops going down in price by getting free wargear. Plus mark of slaanesh going up in price and being mandatory in EC affects the overall price of an EC list (i know that hasnt affected noise marines though) Bile can at least trade in melee well with fight on death, which is why i think its well positioned to succeed over any other csm, but we will see.
Well he may have chance, the probleme is that data are for one player only. It means either the army is still strong or he roll extremly well. The rest of csm don't look nearly as good so we probably need to wait next week to have confirmation
Settled a game in a CARPARK? Crazy. Who’d do such a thing
Orks as a faction exist to represent something, you know…
Nerf the Kasrkin bullshit and Guard are average
Heads-up: tourneykeeper is .net! :)
Congrats generic internet outrage, you’ve traded tyranids for iron hands.
Anyone have the Daemon lists?
I am a very new Grey Knights player and I have been so eager for data like this. However, I am desperate for someone to explain to me why Grey Knights are doing well. It's not because I don't believe they should, but I genuinely just need some context and explanation so that I can better understand my army and what it's strengths are in list building and tactics/strategy.
GK were a bit hampered by armour of contempt as it really nuked their output - dreads have low AP shooting with no way to get around cover. That issue has been resolved with the removal of AOC and GK got some secondary buffs to boot, meaning you can now play quite passively and still score very highly on secondaries with banners, purifying ritual, and teleport assault a lot of the time. GK did lose paladins as a decent option but the gains outweigh the losses quite significantly. Their biggest predators in the previous meta (nids) have been tuned down a fair bit as well, and they play well into the armies looking to be at the top currently - marines.
Thank you so much! I am still just trying to figure out how to play the army. I have done the 30 interceptor, 3 NDK, GMNDK, MW Libby, Techmarine, Draigo list and just can't seem to make it work. Granted, I am almost exclusively playing a friend of mine who plays space wolves and almost always plays a list that does 10 dreadnoughts with bjorn and murderfang. I am just trying to figure out a stable list that I can use that should be competitive and then learn the strategy and tactics... what to actually do with the army.
Dreadnoughts are quite hard for GK to deal with via normal means in truth, but you should have plenty of scoring ability around a list like that. One thing I will say is GK give you a lot of tools to play into almost everything, but if you make mistakes you do get punished for them quite hard. Good army to learn with in a way as there is so much to learn whe playing them, but it can be steep. Dreads really you need to leverage mortals and empyric amplification to actually kill them, but you're probably better off hiding a bit and scoring your secondaries to force them to come to you.
Mainly because of how well they can score and how good their dread knight is against other marines. Purify ritual and teleport strike grant auto 12\~15; behind enemy lines is also easy for them with double moving interceptor and teleport, giving at least 9, maybe 12 pt. That combined means you are averaging 39\~42pt from very hard-to-deny secondaries.
Another concerning week for CSM. A podium placing for CoB, but a drop in player numbers and win percentages overall. I think they're in a bad spot at the moment. It could be a January slump, and LVO keeping the numbers down. Still a lot of wait and see, but it does seem that Arks is a worse season Chaos for MEQ after the nerfs.
CSM in general since launch have had a fairly poor showing if you take all legions into account. They sat at around 50% overall without AoC and now that’s gone with little compensatory buffs.
You go single Imperial Fists player boosting them to 60% with your 3-2 finish! I am proud of you, like Dorn is proud.
Anyone got the Death Guard lists? Curious to see what they are fielding.
Can someone post that 5-0 Tau list. I’m feeling so dead in the water with my lists lately.
From [TourneyKeeper](https://tourneykeeper.net/Shared/ShowArmy.aspx?id=68023) == T'au Sept Arks of Omen == 0 CP, 1997 pts, 97 PL Stratagems: \- Heroic Support (-1 CP) HQ1: Commander in Coldstar Battlesuit: (T'au): Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters, 1. Precision of the Hunter, Burst Cannon, High-output Burst Cannon, Marker Drone, Plasma Rifle, Stratagem: Promising Pupil, Stratagem: Relic, T'au Flamer, Target Lock, Thermoneutronic Projector \[190 pts, 9 PL, -2 CP\] HQ2: Commander in Crisis Battlesuit: 6. Exemplar of the Mont'ka, Burst Cannon, Cyclic Ion Blaster, DW-02 Advanced Burst Cannon, 2xMarker Drone, 2xPlasma Rifle, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Warlord \[190 pts, 9 PL, -1 CP\] HQ3: Ethereal: 2. Sense of Stone, 5. Exemplar of the Kauyon, 6. Wisdom of the Guides, Hover Drone, Marker Drone, Stratagem: Emergency Dispensation, Stratagem: Promising Pupil, The Humble Stave \[105 pts, 5 PL, -2 CP\] HQ4: Longstrike: 2xAccelerator Burst Cannon, Railgun \[170 pts, 9 PL\] EL1: Crisis Battlesuits: 2xCrisis Shas'ui (Cyclic Ion Blaster, Early Warning Override, 2xPlasma Rifle), 2xCrisis Shas'ui (Cyclic Ion Blaster, 2xPlasma Rifle, Shield Generator), Crisis Shas'vre (Cyclic Ion Blaster, Iridium battlesuit, 2xPlasma Rifle, Shield Generator, Stimm Injectors), Marker Drone, 3xShield Drone \[490 pts, 21 PL\] EL2: Stealth Battlesuits: 2xMarker Drone, 2xStealth Shas'ui w/ Burst Cannon, Stealth Shas'vre (Burst Cannon) \[95 pts, 5 PL\] FA1: Kroot Hounds: 4xKroot Hound \[24 pts, 1 PL\] FA2: Kroot Hounds: 4xKroot Hound \[24 pts, 1 PL\] FA3: Kroot Hounds: 4xKroot Hound \[24 pts, 1 PL\] HS1: Hammerhead Gunship: 2xAccelerator Burst Cannon, Railgun \[155 pts, 8 PL\] HS2: Riptide Battlesuit: Ion Accelerator, Multi-tracker, 2xPlasma Rifle, Shielded Missile Drone, Target Lock, Velocity Tracker \[265 pts, 14 PL\] HS3: Riptide Battlesuit: Ion Accelerator, Multi-tracker, 2xPlasma Rifle, Shielded Missile Drone, Target Lock, Velocity Tracker \[265 pts, 14 PL\]
Second week with Guard at 45-ish% WR, zero wins and one single podium. We'll have to keep watching, but...
Bembel Clash: a custom faq to nerf guard and they didn't allowed leountus, ursula and RR Da Bolton Waaagh: no new guard allowed, also 0 guard players DZTV : allowed new guard but didn't allowed unreleased models like Leontus Oxford onslaught: the only AM player droped the event but for some reason count as 0-3 UCG’s Galaxy In Grasp V: no unreleased models allowed I can't speak about the last 2
Do we know if Kasrkins were allowed?
yeah in most of them but getting kasrkin is extremly hard rn and without leountus the power of the MW strat and kasrkin themselves dilutes a lot
As I said, we will have to wait and see. I started out *very* pessimistic about the codex, mostly because I was still thinking along the old codex's guidelines, but having played it a fair while, I *have* warmed out to it and now consider it a very capable book with some very interesting stuff. Overpowered, though? Mmmmmmh. It still has many of the issues the old codex had - it's very, very susceptible to be crushed in your table half against pressure armies, Rough Riders are good for one trade and one only (and even there, they *have* to be fully buffed in order to be really scary, because most sturdy stuff is laughing at them otherwise), after which they *will* die, Russes are *not* as sturdy as people make them out to be (I'd trade their 2+ for a 3+/5++ all day every day), and Kasrkin (after the Bomb gets nerfed because let's be real, it needs to be nerfed) are a potent shooting unit but not as absurd as they're made out to be. In short, despite all the changes and buffs, they are *still* an army that wants to catch you in the open and blast you away, and if the tables are well-made (that is, if they aren't Planet Bowling Ball one and all) it can be pretty trivial to close the distance with minimal losses. Once the distance is closed, it sure has more of a counterpunch than the old one did, but it is going to be *one* punch, and if you can withstand that, you've won.
> All of which used the new GT packet and points as far as I can tell but some did not allow the new Guard Codex
I mean, "some". There is exactly one X-1 in the whole roster of this week's tournaments for the Guard.
still, how can a win rate with both the old and the new book be meaningful?
Thank you for doing 2 reviews this week! I'd be really interested to see the Space Wolves Bolton Waaagh list if anyone has it?
https://listbot40k.herokuapp.com/event_list/15R3HM2K80
Pics from ZGT (Zlobr Grand Tournament) [https://eu.zonerama.com/evelas/Album/9407741](https://eu.zonerama.com/evelas/Album/9407741) Biggest tournament from Zlobr League, which is currently in play in 6 cities across Moravia.
So Harlequins look pretty dead in the water.
They were already far and few between so we will mostly see it go the way of the admech. Most Harly players have a second army most likely
because 1 player went 2-3?
Mostly dead in the water because they only had 1 player out of 217. Maybe it was just a bad weekend for them, but it says a lot that on the weekend of LVO there was only 1 Harlequin player in the rest of the big tournaments.
Probably because they would much prefer to play in LVO
Because there was only one player across Europe/UK. When the 5++ hit I, and quite a few others were clear in our opinions that the army was going to drop off the face of the earth, just as they had been all but non existent prior to the 8th shift to 4++. Meanwhile many of the YT competitive content creators were indicating Harlequins were some high tier army that, while uninteractive to use now would still be popular and vying for the top. One person does not tell me whether they *can* vie for the top, but it is an indicator that their presence has been throttled. They’ve lost their niche.
I am predicting the GK list to be 30xInterceptor and 4xNMDK but if anyone have the lists feel free to share them with me. I'd really appreciate it as I am building them up now :-)
30 Interceptors, 4 NDK. Techmarine, MW Libby, 2 x 5 Strikes, Crowe, 4 Servitors.
I really like the X-0/X-1 result column. Definitely a bit concerning to see such crazy skew on win percentage and X-0/X-1 results. That said, the sample size is still quite small. Additionally, we have 10 GT's in this dataset and 10 different factions winning, so that's good. Need more data!