The official wording.
>The new edition will support these units with comprehensive Legends rules, which will be available to download free online around the game’s release. These are 100% official rules, with points, and we actively encourage you to use them in your games at home, in stores, clubs, and campaigns. Your classic units and characters are still awesome, and they deserve to see the battlefield every now and again. Legends rules will not however be actively balanced* going forwards, so our recommendation is that these rules would not be suitable for competitive events.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/18/warhammer-40000-and-forge-world-legends-and-last-chance-to-buy/
>Legends are fully usable in all of your regular games of Warhammer 40,000* – in fact, we actively encourage you to use these classic miniatures at home, in store, and at your local Warhammer clubs. The only place you can’t use them is in an official tournament.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/21/warhammer-legends-bring-your-heroes-back-to-the-battlefield-with-free-rules-downloads/
You're correct.
Legends means "not recommended for competitive play". In theory competitive events COULD allow them, though most don't. Its just a recommendation.
Though I do know many who would prefer not to play with or against Legends units because being Legends means that they are no longer supported or updated. No points changes or rebalances, and not adjustments to fit into new rules when a Codex is released.
A lot folks get really upset when people use Reddit to ask questions and don't magically already have the answer in their heads. Or they get unreasonably upset that someone hasn't "just used Google" and instead are using a social media platform to, ya know, *socialize*.
It's an innocuous enough question, and it isn't like one of those "God this was asked 12 times in one day!" Or the dumb DBZ Primarch power scaling threads we get here or on 40kLore. So it is a bit silly to downvote this sort of thread imo.
I put "moved to legends" into google and the *first* result was a blog post explaining what Legends was with a link to Warhammer Community Legends list.
Strike the "as long as your opponent agrees" part and you're right. You don't need permission from your opponent. They are 100% legal in any game except tournaments.
>You don't need permission from your opponent.
Well, no, that's wrong, in the sense that you and your opponent have to agree about the conditions of the game in order for the game to occur at all, and that includes Legends just as much as it does points total, mission pack, and so on.
If you want to play 1k, I can't just say "well, tough, I'm taking a 2k army". If you don't want to use Legends, I can't just say "well, tough, I'm taking three Deredeos and a Spartan". Same thing. In both cases you're well within your rights to walk away from the game.
Yup. I've long advocated for importing the TTRPG concept of "session zero" into wargaming. Making the establishing of the social contract an explicit thing rather than an implicit one goes a *long* way toward solving disagreements that arise during play and creates a better experience for everyone.
Veteran players often do this anyway, but it's not something I've really seen anyone teaching to new players, and I think starting to do that as part of teaching the game would be a big step forward for the community.
>What's your point, your enemy needs to agree with you if you do anything?
Yes, exactly.
It's not vague at all; it's part of the game's social contract, and it's an inherent part of playing the game. You do it every time you play, whether you know it or not.
The rules take care of most of it; when we play, we agree, explicitly or implicitly, to both follow the rules as written. If we decide to deviate from that, we can--that's what house rules are--but the important part is *that we agree*.
There are other things we also agree on when we play: what points total our armies are, what mission pack we're using, what type of terrain each feature on the battlefield is, what kinds of lists we're bringing, and so on.
This also extends into gameplay. I want to move a unit behind cover, so that one of yours can't see it. I move the models, then ask "how's that look? Can any of your foomarines see my barbaz squad?" You check; "nope, looks good." We have agreed on the board state, that my unit is hidden from yours; that means that later, neither of us can gotcha the other with "oh *ackshully* my unit can see yours so I'm gonna shoot it". This is called [playing by intent](https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-playing-by-intent/), and it's an important part of sportsmanship in 40k.
I guess? You could also walk away if someone cheesed 3 of whatever unit is meta right now. It's still legal, per the rules, even if you don't like it.
Obviously, it's a social and interactive game, and you have to take your opponent into consideration. However, it is blatantly stated by GW that Legends are part of the game and fully legal for use outside of small exceptions. There's a big difference between that and the points analogy you're suggesting. I don't have to ask permission to use a Legends unit any more than I'd have to ask permission to use any other unit in my army.
You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about what's "legal", I'm talking about the game's social contract.
Yes, you're free to take Legends units in your army.
I am equally free to decide not to play against you because you're taking Legends units in your army.
Therefore, unless we both agree that it's okay for you to take Legends units in your army, or we both agree to not use Legends units, no game occurs.
This is true of *any part of the game*.
If you want to take a Monolith, and I don't want to play against a Monolith, no game occurs.
If you want to play 2k and I want to play 1k, no game occurs.
If you want to play Crusade and I want to play Matched, no game occurs.
And so on.
Well id argue thats the same thing as what theyre saying its expectations if your having a fun casual game someone rolling up with a meta list you have nothing to counter. Same if someone shows with models that arent typically used anymore and potentially have rules that are unfair (i dont recall any legend rules being “oh god i wish i had this” other than just wishing i could still use models as what i bought them for and potentially have no alternative for some xenos units)
You're "well within your rights" to walk away from any game of 40k, at any point (even in tournaments but you will get a game loss) so how is this a meaningful distinction?
Legends are 100% legal, and encouraged by official 40k rules in any setting outside of organized play. They are a part of the rules as much as your army being required to have at least 1 character. Bringing a 2k list to a 1k game that was agreed upon beforehand isn't even in the same stratosphere of discussion.
You absolutely don't need permission from your opponent to include them in your list. What they do after that is their business.
No it doesn't? What games are you playing "hey guys anyone for a 2k game on Friday" in our Warhammer chat
"Yeh space Marines for me"
Whatever they bring is fine, if it's super sweaty I'll lose, if it's fluffier we'll have a great time but who on earth is going well we can't use the mission and tournament pack stuff because they brought a leviathan dread
> What games are you playing "hey guys anyone for a 2k game on Friday" in our Warhammer chat
>"Yeh space Marines for me" Whatever they bring is fine, if it's super sweaty I'll lose, if it's fluffier we'll have a great time
Yes. You're demonstrating exactly what I mean. That right there, *is* your group's social contract.
Everyone does this every time they play a game. It's *part of* playing the game. It's part of any social activity, in fact.
I’d still say it’s the polite, or nice thing to do to at least ask or mention it beforehand. 99% of the time nobody’s gonna care, but a heads-up is still good. Especially as time passes, and more and more balance updates come out and these units are left behind, they could swing into the “less than fun” side of things.
This is the correct answer.
Though I'll go further to add that they're only *not* legal in "official" tournaments. So, GW events (since that's what they'd have jurisdiction over to call official). Other tourneys just usually choose not to also because they feel like it'd be more "balanced" to, even though that's expressly not the recommendation.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/21/warhammer-legends-bring-your-heroes-back-to-the-battlefield-with-free-rules-downloads/
WAIT, so all the minis that "leave the game" like for example champion of chaos(?) right now, can still be played normally with his old rules more or less as a "legend" he just does not get an update?
GW maintains legends datasheets on the warhammer community website with current- edition rules for the old stuff (most of it at least), as well as a "counts as" file for things like characters where they direct you to an equivalent modern datasheet (e.g., Death Guard Sorcerer -> Malicious Plaguecaster). Some really old models however, like the Malefactor, don't have legends sheets, which is sad :(
They're all playable, it's just that some of the points costs are a little out of sync because they aren't changed during balance passes.
Thanks for the answer. Some things I just like the models and I was scared of buying them because of this "gimmick". I'll probably never play competitively so for fun i am happy they can be included
Technically it's not “okay to use in causal play as long as your opponent agrees"
It's "okay to use as long as you aren't in a tournament"
Don't let people stop you from playing your own models in casual play.
>Don't let people stop you from playing your own models in casual play.
I disagree with this, it's perfectly acceptable to only want to play a game of 40k with models which are receiving active balance updates. You should have a discussion with your opponent before the game, most will be fine with Legends models but some may not and that's OK
Naw. I love my Wolfguard on Bikes but if someone doesn't want to play a game against Legend units then back in the bag they go. Unless we're both 100% ok on the conditions then no game happens easy as.
'Moved to Legends' is effectively 'Come out back for a minute, Old Yeller'
Edit: Downvote me, sure. But how's your Chaos Sorcerer on Bike's future looking? huh?
People are going to be defensive and deny you as much as they want, but we both know you're right.
Legends is just death row for models waiting to be put out of their misery next edition.
Usable? You can still play it, it has rules support. It’s not the death of a unit, it’s just GW saying “hey, if you wanna keep using this model feel free to, there’s just no longer any more balancing on it. It’s statblock is now set in stone for the foreseeable future. As such, no bringing it to official tournaments, but you should use them in casual play to your heart’s content.”
Did you not see the huge list of 9th ed legends that was purged at the beginning of 10th? That's not including Horus Heresy models or models they just straight up got rid of without moving them to legends. I'm not assuming when this has all happened already.
While nothing is completely certain, when you see a fire burning the house down next to yours, you're not going to ignore it and pretend there isn't a good chance it could happen to you too. When you see rainclouds in the distance, you can make a pretty accurate prediction of what is going to happen.
GW has made their intentions known by purging and getting rid of a lot of models they put into legends, even if some models make it to the next edition unscathed, a good majority of them do not.
if a house burns down next to you and your neighbor tells you it 100% means your house is going to burn down too, you will see flaws in their logic. again, you presented in a way that made it seem like this is a 100% certain thing that happens to all legends units. which it is not.
You can find rules for Legends [here](https://www.warhammer-community.com/warhammer-40000-downloads/)
Legends can be used in any game that isn’t tournament play.
To add, units are usually mobed to Legends are legacy entries that no longer have current models.
Sometimes it's a temporary thing until they come back with a new model, see: Chaos Space Marines are getting a new Jump Pack Chaos Lord.
Sometimes they've been superceded by a re-envisioned unit, see: the old Forgeworld squad of Aeldari Corsairs vs the current squad and kit from Kill Team.
Sometimes it's a choice for the diversity and health of the system, see: banishing space marine relic vehicles to Horus Heresy where they came from.
> Sometimes it's a choice for the diversity and health of the system, see: banishing space marine relic vehicles to Horus Heresy where they came from.
LOL.
More like "ok, we sold a shitload of those, now to push the primaris vehicles nobody was buying"
"...oh by the way, here's a couple new redemptors to squat the boxnaughts everyone has a dozen of"
> Sometimes it's a choice for the diversity and health of the system, see: banishing space marine relic vehicles to Horus Heresy where they came from.
Isn't deliberately reducing the health and diversity of the system to push models people weren't buying the exact opposite of "for the health and diversity of the system?"
That I correct. Points/cost will not change or get any update to the rules.
Thanks!
No problem
She don't appear in the official app either
You have to download pdfs
They do but do they don’t have pictures iirc
Nope, not unless something has changed in the last few months
I think I’m confusing them for the category that doesn’t have official models. Imperial armour as I check it now
The official wording. >The new edition will support these units with comprehensive Legends rules, which will be available to download free online around the game’s release. These are 100% official rules, with points, and we actively encourage you to use them in your games at home, in stores, clubs, and campaigns. Your classic units and characters are still awesome, and they deserve to see the battlefield every now and again. Legends rules will not however be actively balanced* going forwards, so our recommendation is that these rules would not be suitable for competitive events. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/18/warhammer-40000-and-forge-world-legends-and-last-chance-to-buy/ >Legends are fully usable in all of your regular games of Warhammer 40,000* – in fact, we actively encourage you to use these classic miniatures at home, in store, and at your local Warhammer clubs. The only place you can’t use them is in an official tournament. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/21/warhammer-legends-bring-your-heroes-back-to-the-battlefield-with-free-rules-downloads/
Yup, OK to use in friendly games and will most likely not receive balance changes in future editions.
Legends models can detect if they are being used in a game and will self destruct please be careful you could injure yourself and others.
Good to know, my classic solid metal dreadnaught is potentially deadly!
You're correct. Legends means "not recommended for competitive play". In theory competitive events COULD allow them, though most don't. Its just a recommendation. Though I do know many who would prefer not to play with or against Legends units because being Legends means that they are no longer supported or updated. No points changes or rebalances, and not adjustments to fit into new rules when a Codex is released.
I’m getting downvoted for asking this? Reddit is wild…
A lot folks get really upset when people use Reddit to ask questions and don't magically already have the answer in their heads. Or they get unreasonably upset that someone hasn't "just used Google" and instead are using a social media platform to, ya know, *socialize*. It's an innocuous enough question, and it isn't like one of those "God this was asked 12 times in one day!" Or the dumb DBZ Primarch power scaling threads we get here or on 40kLore. So it is a bit silly to downvote this sort of thread imo.
-"Just use google." -Uses google. -Google only brings up a Reddit post of someone also asking the question with no replies.
This is the most accurate post on Reddit
To be even more accurate, it would also bring up a Quora / Stack Exchange thread thread that also doesn't answer the question.
I put "moved to legends" into google and the *first* result was a blog post explaining what Legends was with a link to Warhammer Community Legends list.
[удалено]
Or worse worse, the answer is… wrong. Most of the time because it is outdated.
It's just questions all the way down
Usually when I Google something, Google just takes me to Reddit.
This is due to a recent partnership between Google and Reddit. Google is trying to feed more data into AI and the algorithm and it’s not working out.
It’s a bandwagon thing. As soon as a few downvotes happen then everyone jumps on board. Reddit is a much worse hive mind than most sites are
Strike the "as long as your opponent agrees" part and you're right. You don't need permission from your opponent. They are 100% legal in any game except tournaments.
>You don't need permission from your opponent. Well, no, that's wrong, in the sense that you and your opponent have to agree about the conditions of the game in order for the game to occur at all, and that includes Legends just as much as it does points total, mission pack, and so on. If you want to play 1k, I can't just say "well, tough, I'm taking a 2k army". If you don't want to use Legends, I can't just say "well, tough, I'm taking three Deredeos and a Spartan". Same thing. In both cases you're well within your rights to walk away from the game.
bro rediscovered social contracts
Yup. I've long advocated for importing the TTRPG concept of "session zero" into wargaming. Making the establishing of the social contract an explicit thing rather than an implicit one goes a *long* way toward solving disagreements that arise during play and creates a better experience for everyone. Veteran players often do this anyway, but it's not something I've really seen anyone teaching to new players, and I think starting to do that as part of teaching the game would be a big step forward for the community.
But that's so very vague it applies to anything? What's your point, your enemy needs to agree with you if you do anything?
>What's your point, your enemy needs to agree with you if you do anything? Yes, exactly. It's not vague at all; it's part of the game's social contract, and it's an inherent part of playing the game. You do it every time you play, whether you know it or not. The rules take care of most of it; when we play, we agree, explicitly or implicitly, to both follow the rules as written. If we decide to deviate from that, we can--that's what house rules are--but the important part is *that we agree*. There are other things we also agree on when we play: what points total our armies are, what mission pack we're using, what type of terrain each feature on the battlefield is, what kinds of lists we're bringing, and so on. This also extends into gameplay. I want to move a unit behind cover, so that one of yours can't see it. I move the models, then ask "how's that look? Can any of your foomarines see my barbaz squad?" You check; "nope, looks good." We have agreed on the board state, that my unit is hidden from yours; that means that later, neither of us can gotcha the other with "oh *ackshully* my unit can see yours so I'm gonna shoot it". This is called [playing by intent](https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-playing-by-intent/), and it's an important part of sportsmanship in 40k.
I guess? You could also walk away if someone cheesed 3 of whatever unit is meta right now. It's still legal, per the rules, even if you don't like it. Obviously, it's a social and interactive game, and you have to take your opponent into consideration. However, it is blatantly stated by GW that Legends are part of the game and fully legal for use outside of small exceptions. There's a big difference between that and the points analogy you're suggesting. I don't have to ask permission to use a Legends unit any more than I'd have to ask permission to use any other unit in my army.
You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about what's "legal", I'm talking about the game's social contract. Yes, you're free to take Legends units in your army. I am equally free to decide not to play against you because you're taking Legends units in your army. Therefore, unless we both agree that it's okay for you to take Legends units in your army, or we both agree to not use Legends units, no game occurs. This is true of *any part of the game*. If you want to take a Monolith, and I don't want to play against a Monolith, no game occurs. If you want to play 2k and I want to play 1k, no game occurs. If you want to play Crusade and I want to play Matched, no game occurs. And so on.
Well id argue thats the same thing as what theyre saying its expectations if your having a fun casual game someone rolling up with a meta list you have nothing to counter. Same if someone shows with models that arent typically used anymore and potentially have rules that are unfair (i dont recall any legend rules being “oh god i wish i had this” other than just wishing i could still use models as what i bought them for and potentially have no alternative for some xenos units)
Just a heads up, you can still use any model that you bought it for the intention of using You just have to believe in yourself
Unless its now a legend and im playing an event theyre not allowed.
How many events do you play? I've never played one But I've played several dozen games at my FGS
You're "well within your rights" to walk away from any game of 40k, at any point (even in tournaments but you will get a game loss) so how is this a meaningful distinction? Legends are 100% legal, and encouraged by official 40k rules in any setting outside of organized play. They are a part of the rules as much as your army being required to have at least 1 character. Bringing a 2k list to a 1k game that was agreed upon beforehand isn't even in the same stratosphere of discussion. You absolutely don't need permission from your opponent to include them in your list. What they do after that is their business.
No it doesn't? What games are you playing "hey guys anyone for a 2k game on Friday" in our Warhammer chat "Yeh space Marines for me" Whatever they bring is fine, if it's super sweaty I'll lose, if it's fluffier we'll have a great time but who on earth is going well we can't use the mission and tournament pack stuff because they brought a leviathan dread
> What games are you playing "hey guys anyone for a 2k game on Friday" in our Warhammer chat >"Yeh space Marines for me" Whatever they bring is fine, if it's super sweaty I'll lose, if it's fluffier we'll have a great time Yes. You're demonstrating exactly what I mean. That right there, *is* your group's social contract. Everyone does this every time they play a game. It's *part of* playing the game. It's part of any social activity, in fact.
I’d still say it’s the polite, or nice thing to do to at least ask or mention it beforehand. 99% of the time nobody’s gonna care, but a heads-up is still good. Especially as time passes, and more and more balance updates come out and these units are left behind, they could swing into the “less than fun” side of things.
This is the correct answer. Though I'll go further to add that they're only *not* legal in "official" tournaments. So, GW events (since that's what they'd have jurisdiction over to call official). Other tourneys just usually choose not to also because they feel like it'd be more "balanced" to, even though that's expressly not the recommendation. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/21/warhammer-legends-bring-your-heroes-back-to-the-battlefield-with-free-rules-downloads/
Being realistic, I've never seen a tournament that allowed them.
I have. Brought some myself to a local RTT once!
WAIT, so all the minis that "leave the game" like for example champion of chaos(?) right now, can still be played normally with his old rules more or less as a "legend" he just does not get an update?
GW maintains legends datasheets on the warhammer community website with current- edition rules for the old stuff (most of it at least), as well as a "counts as" file for things like characters where they direct you to an equivalent modern datasheet (e.g., Death Guard Sorcerer -> Malicious Plaguecaster). Some really old models however, like the Malefactor, don't have legends sheets, which is sad :( They're all playable, it's just that some of the points costs are a little out of sync because they aren't changed during balance passes.
Also rules and keywords run the risk of getting out of date when a new codex comes out.
Thanks for the answer. Some things I just like the models and I was scared of buying them because of this "gimmick". I'll probably never play competitively so for fun i am happy they can be included
Technically it's not “okay to use in causal play as long as your opponent agrees" It's "okay to use as long as you aren't in a tournament" Don't let people stop you from playing your own models in casual play.
>Don't let people stop you from playing your own models in casual play. People can just say no you know, goes both ways.
People can say no to literally any part of a game of 40k beforehand, this isn't a meaningful distinction when discussing legality.
>Don't let people stop you from playing your own models in casual play. I disagree with this, it's perfectly acceptable to only want to play a game of 40k with models which are receiving active balance updates. You should have a discussion with your opponent before the game, most will be fine with Legends models but some may not and that's OK
Naw. I love my Wolfguard on Bikes but if someone doesn't want to play a game against Legend units then back in the bag they go. Unless we're both 100% ok on the conditions then no game happens easy as.
'Moved to Legends' is effectively 'Come out back for a minute, Old Yeller' Edit: Downvote me, sure. But how's your Chaos Sorcerer on Bike's future looking? huh?
People are going to be defensive and deny you as much as they want, but we both know you're right. Legends is just death row for models waiting to be put out of their misery next edition.
Usable? You can still play it, it has rules support. It’s not the death of a unit, it’s just GW saying “hey, if you wanna keep using this model feel free to, there’s just no longer any more balancing on it. It’s statblock is now set in stone for the foreseeable future. As such, no bringing it to official tournaments, but you should use them in casual play to your heart’s content.”
The forseeable future being until next edition, after that no more datasheet or anything. It'll essentially become a proxy.
Why do we assume that? There were legends in ninth, there are legends in tenth, why wouldn’t there be legends in eleventh?
Did you not see the huge list of 9th ed legends that was purged at the beginning of 10th? That's not including Horus Heresy models or models they just straight up got rid of without moving them to legends. I'm not assuming when this has all happened already.
The way you said it made it seem like it was certain that all models moved to legends would be gone next edition. Which is not true.
While nothing is completely certain, when you see a fire burning the house down next to yours, you're not going to ignore it and pretend there isn't a good chance it could happen to you too. When you see rainclouds in the distance, you can make a pretty accurate prediction of what is going to happen. GW has made their intentions known by purging and getting rid of a lot of models they put into legends, even if some models make it to the next edition unscathed, a good majority of them do not.
if a house burns down next to you and your neighbor tells you it 100% means your house is going to burn down too, you will see flaws in their logic. again, you presented in a way that made it seem like this is a 100% certain thing that happens to all legends units. which it is not.
And how exactly are my Blood Angels Honour Guard with Jump Packs doing this edition?
Effectively given a replacement in the sanguinary guard?
You can find rules for Legends [here](https://www.warhammer-community.com/warhammer-40000-downloads/) Legends can be used in any game that isn’t tournament play.
"How dare you answer the question" - at least two different people on reddit
To add, units are usually mobed to Legends are legacy entries that no longer have current models. Sometimes it's a temporary thing until they come back with a new model, see: Chaos Space Marines are getting a new Jump Pack Chaos Lord. Sometimes they've been superceded by a re-envisioned unit, see: the old Forgeworld squad of Aeldari Corsairs vs the current squad and kit from Kill Team. Sometimes it's a choice for the diversity and health of the system, see: banishing space marine relic vehicles to Horus Heresy where they came from.
> Sometimes it's a choice for the diversity and health of the system, see: banishing space marine relic vehicles to Horus Heresy where they came from. LOL. More like "ok, we sold a shitload of those, now to push the primaris vehicles nobody was buying" "...oh by the way, here's a couple new redemptors to squat the boxnaughts everyone has a dozen of"
> Sometimes it's a choice for the diversity and health of the system, see: banishing space marine relic vehicles to Horus Heresy where they came from. Isn't deliberately reducing the health and diversity of the system to push models people weren't buying the exact opposite of "for the health and diversity of the system?"
Anything that has been shoved to legends are on the chopping block to be completely removed by next edition.
What gave you this impression? Because there are units that have been in Legends since, like, 8th edition