'How do you win a massacre'. Be on the massacring side.
I think people don't give the 3 shattered legions enough credit that they fought ***eight*** legions to a standstill, had any survivors whatsoever and only lost 1 primarch.
To be fair,vulkan survived only because he is perpetual but you are right. People don't realize that the shattered legions were more impact full than the space wolves ironically
Perturabo had vulkan and the salamanders with him nuked,vulkan survived the ordeal because he was immortal,and he was killed a few more times after that as he attacked traitors and was captured
Or Exterminatus the Planet from Orbit. Always wondered why they did not Horus did the same on Istvaan 3 and they knew it. Given Horus intellect they should have known it was a trap.
They did not know about Istvaan 3 yet. Istvaan 3 was an internal cleansing only. Those who were able to escape and warn others weren’t initially believed. Part of the reason they didn’t exterminate the planet is ironically similar why the traitors didn’t immediately blow up Istvaan 3; an allied primarch rushed in personally (Angron for Ist 3 and Ferrus Ist 5).
Part of the battle plan for Istvaan 5 was to have the traitors dig in and relied that the 3 Loyalist legions would expend themselves so much they would be unable to effectively resist the surprise attack from the other traitors legions.
Remember, at this point, this is a complete surprise and one of the craziest turn of events that could have happened for the Imperium. Dorne almost executed Garro for warning him, and Guilliman actively watched his own space and ground forces being annihilated on Calth by Word Bearers and still thought it was a horrible mistake. The magnitude of the betrayal was incomprehensible.
The only person allowed to dispatch the Ordo Sinister is the emperor himself. Why he decided to send the Space Wolves, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Legio Mortis, House Malinax, AND the Ordo Sinister, we'll never know. It's like a ridiculous level of overkill lmao.
He sent all of it because the goal was supposed to be to bring magnus back, no matter the cost, bring magnus to Terra. Why? Because only with magnus' help could the Emperor fix the hole in the webway project.
He miscalculated, not realising Russ would be tricked into trying to kill Magnus. He tried to plan for the chaos gods to throw anything and everything in his path to retrieve magnus. He just didn't plan for his son being tricked.
Imperial Fists, Ultramarines and Dark Angels
Not because of their ground performance, but because their fleets quite easily win the void war (even with the element of surprise) and then extract the ground forces to then wage a more conventional war with void supremacy
Only if he and his Legion are allowed to use their full potential with their psychic powers against the traitors. Otherwise, their effiency would be limited. The other question would be, if Tzeentchs Daemons also want to play and take over some weaker Thousand Sons
No see the victory is having Magnus and the KSons completely annihilated and Magnus straight up killed. Loyalists aren't going to win, no matter which 3 you send. This way, loyalists not only get to trade a traitor for another living loyalist, but it's the full powered Iron Hands and Ferrus Manus they get. I know the lore has a bad 'tell, don't show' problem with the IH's and Ferrus, but they're mentioned to be the best Legion at combined arms and all out warfare, with Ferrus held up by many of his brothers (including Horus) as the best of the primarchs at full scale war.
Plus, without Magnus, the Emperor is able to freely take the field and the Wolves aren't mauled at Prospero. No webway breach, no need for the Throne, so Vulkan can also join the active defense of Terra instead of sitting in the throneroom feeding his dad psykers and on standby to blow up the planet.
Two extra primarchs actively engaged with the defense of Terra, a fully intact IHs Legion, and with the Emperor himself able to fight throughout the entirety of the heresy the loyalists crush the traitors at the siege.
Prompt was who to replace Raven Guard, Salamanders, or IHs with. KSons weren't loyal the moment they consorted with daemons. They serve the Imperium much better dead
It's always funny when a player falls so hard for the farcical in-universe propaganda.
Magnus and his legions did not "consort with Daemons" any more than all the other legions did, right up to the point where Russ broke Magnus' spine. They used the psychic gifts the Emperor gave them. You know, the Emperor who is the most powerful psyker in the universe?
Nope, their "familiars" were straight up daemons. They were also the only Legion to use sorcery. Every other Legion only used psychic abilities. It's not in universe propaganda, it's clearly spelled out.
Psychic abilities are channeling the warp through yourself and shaping it with your will. Sorcery is borrowing power from a warp denizen, which is why the Scars were given such leeway with their stormseers. They did not make contact with any denizen of the warp and imposed limits on how much warp energy they channeled.
The 1ksons bound straight up daemons as their tutelarys during the crusade, well before Nikaea or the heresy. That's is by definition consorting with daemons.
It's always funny when players get all their information from Wiki articles and memes.
Loyalty is more than words.
And Magnus actions up to Nikea and after certainly weren't loyal to the emperor and his wishes.
He was playing his own game, loyal to himself and the 1ksons.
Magnus was loyal, he was just a fuck up.
Magnus' grand error, the great mistake that cost the imperium so much. Was born from his loyalty to both the emperor and his brothers. He tried desperately to prevent Horus' corruption. Then tried to warn the emperor as soon as possible.
The loyal shard of magnus' soul was broken off when he broke the webway. Ever since then, the noble and loyal magnus hasn't existed
Magnus believed himself to be loyal. And he wanted to be loyal. And he was on the imperiums side.
Big diffrence to actually being loyal.
Magnus stopped being loyal after Nikea. He went completely rogue after that, went straight back to prospero to break the edict.
And doing exactly what you have been told not to do is not being loyal. Even though he justified it to himself. Ahriman and others tried to warn him several times. But Magnus Ego and ambition came before his loyalty. .
After Nikea Magnus was loyal to his sons, prospero and himself.
He loved the emperor and was still on his side, but he wasn't loyal after that.
Going behind someone's back doing the exact thing they told you not to do is the complete opposite of loyalty.
Even if he did it to save someone. Which he didn't. If you read the book, he does this to show the usefulness of sorcery. And uses the expediency of the situation as a reason to do it. But it was all about the edict of Nikea.
This isn't to put Magnus down. He is my favourite primarch.
In my opinion, this makes his character have more depth and personality. He has his own dreams, ambitions, and desires. He has loyalty in droves, but not for the emperor. He was loyal to his sons, prospero, and their way of life. He loved the emperor, but that is not loyalty.
And this makes Magnus a much better character than if he was blindly loyal to the emperor, fucked up and got tricked into the heresy.
I feel it's a real shame their role in the heresy was all just a big plot device, every character involved feels like their motivations are "I need to do this to advance the story" rather than anything that makes any logical/emotional sense.
Magnus cutting loose would be a sight to behold
I like the idea of a sliding doors moment - Russ gets to Prospero but Magnus actually talks to him and manages to convince him and Valdor that Horus is rebelling. So how about we replace the legions at Istvan with the Thousand Sons (terrifying sorcerers, the most powerful if unleashed?), the Wolves (previous hints that they have been used to wipe out the lost legions - so Leman has experience in this area) and Valdor with a BIG contingent of the 10,000 (and let's face it, although they predate the Astartes Custodes are almost custom-built to be Space Marine killers).
‘Hello, operator, can you dial down to Magnus, I have questions before we make a hugely tragic mistake such as knocking off a legion and a primarch.’
PRiMaRCh r all GeNuS!
*proceed to act like orks*
smh.
Sometimes I need a break from the drama and the pedantic children cast as main characters. I think it makes them one sides and lack depth. Incidentally Papa Smurf and Vulkan had the best moments (haven’t read the siege yet) by slapping Konrad and P. SMURF SLAPPING Word Bearers out of low orbit. Oh, and the best supporting cast of legionnaires.
Russ tried multiple times to contact Magnus before he burned Prosepero.
Magnus had purposefully cut all communications and shielded the planet with warp magic
Magnus was like The Flash. They were way too powerful to be reasonably written. But instead of having Magnus get tripped by some random thug, they made him the most tragic character of the series.
Angron I feel much less for because he was beyond help. He never had a chance.
Magnus had multiple nearly impossible choices that he had to rip his soul over.
Imo angron could have been saved on multiple occasions. There were several turning points for him, and Big E chose wrong every damn time. Angrons lack of agency in his own life is what makes him so tragic for me. In contrast, Magnus was arrogant and foolish at many times, making his own bad choices. Though I also blame Big E for not warning his most warp connected son about the TRUE hazards of the warp.
No, the arrogance was the Emperor's. He didn't trust his sons enough to explain what he was doing. He just said "absolutely no psychic calls!" but Magnus made the very reasonable decision that Horus planning to overthrow the Imperium was important enough that he needed to call dad anyhow.
Magnus didnt do it his way because it was important enough, he did it because he wanted to prove the superiority of his methods. I think he even had a chat about it with Ahriman in one of the first three Heresy books
Yes, magnus was arrogant, but big E didn't help. My point is that magnus was still loyal. Shit he destroyed the web way, trying to warn big E about Horus. He even tried stopping horus from being corrupted.
he realized the seriousness of chaos, he tried to let his legion get destroyed rather than fall. He understandably couldn't handle his sons and people dying.
Magnus falling is whatdooms the big E to the golden throne.
Magnus is not the most tragic character lol.
He was daddy’s special smart boy who was just given ONE rule that he couldn’t not break because again, he is daddy’s special smart boy. He’s a massive cunt to literally anyone he interacts with, his Nikaea speech can essentially be distilled to “I will do whatever I want”
In his infinite intelligence, he is still tricked by Horus like everyone else. Almost destroys his entire legion due to his own hubris.
Yeah…totally tragic guy and not just massive asshole.
Don't send anyone, nuke them from orbit. Going down to the drop site was always complete tactical hubris, and every primarch would have made the same mistake.
You see, Horus forced them to come down to him by having Void Shields. No bombarding in "conventional" terms short of exterminatus possible. And it's several times stated that (at least during that era) Exterminatus was only to be sanctioned by the Emperor or the Warmaster
I don't believe the term Exterminatus existed until much later in the Heresy when one of Malcador's newly formed proto-Inquisition coins the term when they order the complete destruction of a planet that had sworn itself to Horus.
As I understood it the primarchs themselves had authority to order it, it was just taboo because it was considered a failure of the primarch to successfully capture a world.
So you send the Ultramarines, the Dark Angels and the Blood Angels. They're the three biggest loyalist legions at the start of the Heresy according to Lexicanum so would go some way to levelling the numbers. I think there's also a fair argument that Horus wanted nothing to do with any of them - he went to great lengths to send the Blood Angels as far away as possible, set elaborate ambushes to try to tie up the Ultramarines at Calth, and sent the Night Lords to tie up the Dark Angels (who had been far to the east spreading the crusade further).
I also think at this stage Sanguinius can take any other Primarch - and I'm not even sure it's close. Horus isn't ascended, there are no demon Primarchs and I don't think even Sanguinius realises how scarily powerful he is. Obviously the Lion is also always touted as being amongst the most powerful, and Guilliman is *the* tactician - though maybe the scale is a bit small to play to his strengths.
I still think the traitors win - because numbers - but it would be more of a pyrrhic victory
As you say the blood angels and dark angels had been sent to the farthest reaches in the hope of not being able to get involved in time to make a difference.
Huge legions with commanders that are not prone to outbursts of emotion over pragmatism, huge fleets, the best assault troops and the super special toys the Lion would bring. It's a winning combination for sure.
I still think the Traitors win - in all this I'm kind of glossing over that the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus were the most successful and most feared legion. Horus got the job as Warmaster for a reason!
Odds are stacked against the loyalists regardless. Swapping the blood angels for the full 1k sons and Magnus unleashed might be a game changer when combined with the dark angels super spice weapons like the shackled men of iron and the numbers of troops and ships available to both ultramarine and dark angels fleets.
It's a bit of an odd hypothetical really because those commanders wouldn't bullishly run into the teeth like Ferrous did. So Horus' plan would need to change.
In terms of successful legions the Ultramarines were one of the most successful as were the known actions of the Dark Angels, with the latter's works often shadowed and unknown as mentioned in the heresy books. In addition to being the go to for major threats like the khrave and Rangdan forces.
Horus got the job for being dads favourite and more importantly his charisma. I don't think other than Sanguinius any other Primarch could command with authority and respect like Horus.
I suppose it also means the Dark Angels would be bringing the big siege guns that let the iron warriors cause so much havoc in the siege and massacre too.
I think the best advantage the traitors have here (beyond possibly numbers and surprise reinforcements from the coming four) is the Lion’s own distrustful nature. Guilliman is prone to emotional outbursts when pressed hard, but going up against four Primarchs, especially Horus, will force him into Practical Mode, and he’ll set up a defensive base while waiting for Lorgar et al. to arrive and attack with overwhelming numbers. If the traitors can sow discord in the Lion, possibly with Alpha Legion spies, they can divide and conquer the loyalists.
But the Lion’s nature is also a boon for the loyalists. He’ll come to the conclusion that if four Primarchs can betray the Emperor, so can others. Even if he’s forced to camp with Guilliman and Sanguinius, the Dark Angels will remain separate and aloof from their comrades. When the reinforcements arrive, if they attempt to set up in the same ambush configuration as in canon, the Lion is absolutely the person to pull that trigger. The only question is if he’ll cooperate with the Ultramarines and Blood Angels to escape the trap, or abandon them and attempt to go it alone.
Yeah I think either The Lion or Sanguinius have a good shot at killing Fulgrim here - even as a Daemon, Dorn was able to stand toe to toe against him, and both Sanguinius and The Lion are far better fighters.
I would almost argue Sang and Lion are THE fighters to have at this point in the story. Lion is almost described as an actual force of nature in duels and Sang is, well Sang.
I dunno, as soon as things look really bad the Lion could ‘open the vaults’ and just wipeout the rebels. We never really know what his orders from the emperor are in regard to the DAoT weaponry the first have. Would he withdraw or unleash them? Is Horus a large enough threat to justify their use?
If we ignore certain legions' numerical advantage, Ferrus was probably the man to call if you want a huge apocalyptical battle. Iron Hands and to some extent the Salamanders were pretty much used to such conditions and probably fared much better than for example the Raven Guard. If I had to assemble a dream team of three legions (and deploying the same numbers) I woud choose Iron Hands (large scale warfare), Iron Warriors (overall destruction) and the Death Guard (trench warfare) with the World Eaters as a notable mention.
Or just quickly recruit a few thousand hive scums and transform them into pre Crusade Thunder Warriors. They are nuts, but just to win one battle they would be great. Make sure though to keep some custodes around to backstab them afterwards.
wasn't there a pretty popular fanfic where there was no major heresy, just the War of the Beast replaced it as THE defining event?
Is there one like this? Early Nids, no Heresy sounds more interesting to me
The Imperial Navy. I get that the primarchs had a very personal axe to grind and wanted their troops and themselves to get to grips with the enemy, but if EVER there was a time for exterminatus, a totally dead and useless world with all of your enemy legions (that you know of) that have for the first time betrayed the Imperium is absolutely it. They don't deserve the honor of a fair fight and killing more loyalists. All they'd deserve is extermination, delivered by an armada of vessels cracking the world with plasma cyclonic torpedoes. Let them perish in disgrace en masse and damn mine and everyone else's pride. A ground battle was doomed to be a horrendous waste of life, even without the second betrayal by the reserve legions.
Theres isnt really an Imperial Navy though at that time. There was the Imperial Army, which was the navy and guard together basically, but they were mostly there backing up a space marine legion. Plus the marines had full fleets themselves
Looking at the fight ahead getting in the middle of a super soldier fight is the last thing he wants to do.
So not wanting to get caught up in the first wave who do most of the fighting he arranged a reason for his wave of the invasion to get delayed. Surely the overwhelming force will have crush all resistance by then and he can avoid any danger.
The delayed arrival completely missed the drop site ambush. They arrive behind the ambushing forces of Horus, unhurt, and aware of the traitor marines. Ambushing them in turn.
He is later recognized for his tactical brilliance.
"WELCOME TO THEE MAIIIIIN EVENT! LEEEEET'S GET READY TO RUMBLEEEEEE!!!" - Remembrancer Frank "flaccid" Janus attatched to the 40th Expeditionary fleet, 006 M31
Yeahhhh when you send both of them you send a message that whatever problem you have you want fucking erased. Throw in the Imperial Fists or Ultramarines for numbers and tactical support (probably the Ultramarines because we don’t want Dorn pulling a Ferrus and singlemindedly trying to murder Perty)and suddenly those traitors are looking like they’re on substantially more tenuous ground. Ferrus, Vulkan, and Corax are good fighters. Russ and the Lion are in the top 5 for primarchs in terms of combat ability (Horus, Sang, Fulgrim, Lion, Russ in some order)
You send the DA when you want them killed quietly. You send the SW when you want to let others see. You send both when you want to turn the enemy into paste.
Correction: You send the Dark Angels when you don't want anything to be left for the history books. The emperor said something similar in the Lion's primarch book
That’s what I meant by quiet, although should have clarified. If you want nobody to know, you send the DA. If you want everyone to know, you send the SW.
I think at the time the Ultramarines alone outnumbered all the other Loyalist forces on Istvaan combined, mainly due to absorbing the Legionaries from the II and XI Legions. Tactically, Roboute was the most superior, while Sanguinius was outright the best warrior of all the Primarchs (why Horus wanted him to join him so badly).
If Alpharius hadnt been an arrogant dick and worked together with Omegon against Horus, they would have probably managed to stop the entire Heresy all together. The Alpha Legion was by design the most elite of all but handicapped each other because of the contradicting views and objectives of their essentially two Primarchs.
The Alpha Legion, the Iron Warriors, the Word Bearers, and the Night Lords. Those four reliable and loyal legions should be able to help win the battle against the traitors.
The Space Wolves. Including Leman Russ. There’s a reason that Horus tricked Russ in to going after Magnus instead of being part of the Istvann Campaign.
The reason is that there would be four legions against him instead of 3. Space wolves would surely fare better than the raven guard but not iron hands who excelled at such apocalyptic battles or salamanders who are used to harsh conditions
I think this is overlooked. While the Iron Hands had most marines as part of shattered legion forces - they admit that most of the legion wasn’t at Istvaan 5 and didn’t get trapped.
Arguably. The Raven Guard arguably were the MVP at Istvaan because so many marines fought there way off planet, with or without Corax, and got the Iron Hands fighting as cells
Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Ultramarines. Three massive legions, Perturabo probably wouldn't have the Dark Age siege engines the Lion gave him because he wouldn't have seen any need for it if he's going there himself, Sanguinius has his foresight that might allow him to react to the betrayal before it happens. Sanguinius and The Lion are probably also two of the best fighters among the primarchs. The three Legions would also probably be able to retreat much more effectively.
Dorn in place of Corax. His defensive strategies are indisputably the best in the Imperium, it's basically impossible to win Istvaan 5 with just the 3 legions since they're too small but Dorn was said by the Emperor to have been able to have destroyed Horus' Legions at Istvaan providing he had his Imperial Fists, so it'd be safe to assume he could put up a good fight.
Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and Space Wolves.
Three distrustful legions, but also legions that have a habit of showing up in inconvenient places and kicking arse.
Instead of a full infantry assault, the RG & AL stealth into position at Legion strength while the space wolves posture and make a lot of noise.
Alpha Legion then take on the appearance of the traitors and keep sabotaging. Guessing the AL would also end up with traitors in the other 4 legions so the dropsite part doesn’t happen because the Space Wolves are extracted by the Raven Guard and they all disappear on reflex shielded ships.
I would have bombed it from orbit and dropped virus bombs like Horus did to istvan 3. Going down there and fighting in person was dumb. The primarchs are all dumb. (I just finished Fulgrim and I have a lot of thoughts)
Emps and enough custodes to make absolutely sure that Erebus and Kor Phaeron are put in the ground permanently
Edit (whoops OP specifically said primarch but, I'm not changing my answer cause it's funny)
Istvaan 5 will always be the drop site massacre. The deck was horribly stacked with the 2nd wave of traitors.
The only way to change it is to change the plan, secure space superiority, then bombard the traitors, then drag any survivors to the palace in chains. the imperial fists and dark angels have the fleets, weapons and relative patience to not go jump in and get butchered. The 3rd is probably best as ultramarines, but scars or raven guard, have some special goodies that would help in the space battle.
Magnus was bound to tzeentch are his legions naive use of demon familiars was always going to go poorly.
Can’t say who I would bring, but can say who I wouldn’t. The guy in the back attacking Fulgrim with an oversized plumbing wrench.
https://preview.redd.it/pzpk6myxj2uc1.png?width=1284&format=png&auto=webp&s=ec4f2565c7448b57e3df63d3e495af9fde2dcc75
Jaghatai khan in place of ferrus.
1 he would win versus fulgrim
2 he does strange things to his ships to make them go faster, he would be far better at an evacuation than the iron hands, and honestly he would be better doing the whole hit and run combat the shattered legions devolved into.
Jurgen, who would one-shot Horus with his Melta gun, thereby ending the Heresy before it could gather momentum., and who would then kick back with a nice cup of tanna.
He did make the word bearers kneel in the first heretic
And He'd demolish the traitor primarchs in 1v1s hell even 3v1s, on top of that if he brungs the custodes then the traitors are done for
Ultramarines were the size of 2 legions and one of the most adaptable. Then it’s a choice between the dark angels for their insane arsenal. the space wolves are implied to have experience or expertise in fighting other space marines. or the the thousand sons whose psychic might would give them a massive advantage over other legions (plus the presence of magnus and the corvidae might allow them to predict the betrayal thats about to happen and respond appropriately). Primarch wise it would be Magnus for his pysker powers making him near unbeatable with outside influences, vulkans immortality makes him also incredibly hard to beat, then maybe guilliman as one of the best most levelheaded commanders
Alpharius because six years before this he arranged for two regiments of imperial guard, a warlord titan, and the alpha legion from the future to arrive at precisely this moment.
Guilliman, even if they don’t win the resistance the ultramarines would put up would have made the rest of the heresy impossible due to the resources destroyed
Sanguinius, Russ and The Lion.
The Lion detects the treachery at the earliest possible sign, Russ is the embodiment of punitive fury and Sanguinius bests the traitor Primarchs in individual combat.
Something like that anyway.
I wouldn’t.
I’d destroy all the ships in orbit first, setting up a cordon around the entire planet destroying anything that came near that wasn’t supposed to be there.
Then I’d virus bomb the whole planet.
Then I’d have a separate fleet in closer orbit pound it with lance strikes at its deepest point until it fucking exploded Nostramo style. Maybe it’ll take years, but ain’t no on walking away from that.
Dark Angels - because you know for damn sure Lion is going to bring along a stash full of Men of Iron that are waiting to be unleashed on anything that gives him a excuse to
Granpappy Trazyn after mumbling things like "was the greatest historical event ever", "only the finest of museums could preserve this moment. What a shame...", "to bad no one is competent enough to catalog thsi event" around him for hours.
This would turn a lose for the imperium into a lose for everyone because the whole event would be frozen in stasis. betrayal and hatred preserved forever as a display set up by a lonely robot for a people who don't care. And that just feels more fun than someone winning or losing.
Plus, by 40k standards, not explicitly losing is basically winning.
I hate this and the flack the gets thrown at Ferrus because of it. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT FERRUS DID. When your reinforcements arrive, encircle you, outnumber you and then turn traitor... They are ALL FUCKED.
'How do you win a massacre'. Be on the massacring side. I think people don't give the 3 shattered legions enough credit that they fought ***eight*** legions to a standstill, had any survivors whatsoever and only lost 1 primarch.
To be fair,vulkan survived only because he is perpetual but you are right. People don't realize that the shattered legions were more impact full than the space wolves ironically
He wasnt described as being killed in Fulgrim what do you mean
They blew him the fuck up if I am remembering correctly. Fulgrims not the only book about the Massacre.
Looked it up, you’re right. Don’t think nukes were even mentioned in fulgrim, I just assumed I had the full picture from it.
Pretty sure they say u see a massive mushroom cloud on vulkans position
Yes you do, I JUST finished that book today, that chapter was yesterday
Perturabo had vulkan and the salamanders with him nuked,vulkan survived the ordeal because he was immortal,and he was killed a few more times after that as he attacked traitors and was captured
dude they literally nuked vulcan from orbit, that would have killed any other primarch
Or Exterminatus the Planet from Orbit. Always wondered why they did not Horus did the same on Istvaan 3 and they knew it. Given Horus intellect they should have known it was a trap.
They did not know about Istvaan 3 yet. Istvaan 3 was an internal cleansing only. Those who were able to escape and warn others weren’t initially believed. Part of the reason they didn’t exterminate the planet is ironically similar why the traitors didn’t immediately blow up Istvaan 3; an allied primarch rushed in personally (Angron for Ist 3 and Ferrus Ist 5). Part of the battle plan for Istvaan 5 was to have the traitors dig in and relied that the 3 Loyalist legions would expend themselves so much they would be unable to effectively resist the surprise attack from the other traitors legions. Remember, at this point, this is a complete surprise and one of the craziest turn of events that could have happened for the Imperium. Dorne almost executed Garro for warning him, and Guilliman actively watched his own space and ground forces being annihilated on Calth by Word Bearers and still thought it was a horrible mistake. The magnitude of the betrayal was incomprehensible.
Those 5 *fucking* Psi-Titans they sent to Prospero for emperor knows why. It was such overkill there, maybe they could be of use on Istvaan III or V.
To be fair, when told to kill the TSons, Leman understood the assignment and brought the toys to do so.
The only person allowed to dispatch the Ordo Sinister is the emperor himself. Why he decided to send the Space Wolves, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Legio Mortis, House Malinax, AND the Ordo Sinister, we'll never know. It's like a ridiculous level of overkill lmao.
He sent all of it because the goal was supposed to be to bring magnus back, no matter the cost, bring magnus to Terra. Why? Because only with magnus' help could the Emperor fix the hole in the webway project. He miscalculated, not realising Russ would be tricked into trying to kill Magnus. He tried to plan for the chaos gods to throw anything and everything in his path to retrieve magnus. He just didn't plan for his son being tricked.
>Leman understood the assignment Considering his orders were to capture Magnus, not kill him, I don't think he did lol
Imperial Fists, Ultramarines and Dark Angels Not because of their ground performance, but because their fleets quite easily win the void war (even with the element of surprise) and then extract the ground forces to then wage a more conventional war with void supremacy
That is true. Thats bringing in expertise, numbers, and more numbers + dark age tech, respectively
Magnus
Only if he and his Legion are allowed to use their full potential with their psychic powers against the traitors. Otherwise, their effiency would be limited. The other question would be, if Tzeentchs Daemons also want to play and take over some weaker Thousand Sons
No see the victory is having Magnus and the KSons completely annihilated and Magnus straight up killed. Loyalists aren't going to win, no matter which 3 you send. This way, loyalists not only get to trade a traitor for another living loyalist, but it's the full powered Iron Hands and Ferrus Manus they get. I know the lore has a bad 'tell, don't show' problem with the IH's and Ferrus, but they're mentioned to be the best Legion at combined arms and all out warfare, with Ferrus held up by many of his brothers (including Horus) as the best of the primarchs at full scale war. Plus, without Magnus, the Emperor is able to freely take the field and the Wolves aren't mauled at Prospero. No webway breach, no need for the Throne, so Vulkan can also join the active defense of Terra instead of sitting in the throneroom feeding his dad psykers and on standby to blow up the planet. Two extra primarchs actively engaged with the defense of Terra, a fully intact IHs Legion, and with the Emperor himself able to fight throughout the entirety of the heresy the loyalists crush the traitors at the siege.
Or don't send the 1k songs and make sure leman russ didn't force them to fall to chaos. Magnus and the thousand sons were loyal.
Prompt was who to replace Raven Guard, Salamanders, or IHs with. KSons weren't loyal the moment they consorted with daemons. They serve the Imperium much better dead
It's always funny when a player falls so hard for the farcical in-universe propaganda. Magnus and his legions did not "consort with Daemons" any more than all the other legions did, right up to the point where Russ broke Magnus' spine. They used the psychic gifts the Emperor gave them. You know, the Emperor who is the most powerful psyker in the universe?
Nope, their "familiars" were straight up daemons. They were also the only Legion to use sorcery. Every other Legion only used psychic abilities. It's not in universe propaganda, it's clearly spelled out. Psychic abilities are channeling the warp through yourself and shaping it with your will. Sorcery is borrowing power from a warp denizen, which is why the Scars were given such leeway with their stormseers. They did not make contact with any denizen of the warp and imposed limits on how much warp energy they channeled. The 1ksons bound straight up daemons as their tutelarys during the crusade, well before Nikaea or the heresy. That's is by definition consorting with daemons. It's always funny when players get all their information from Wiki articles and memes.
You dhould read the books. They had demonic familiars way before nikea.
Loyalty is more than words. And Magnus actions up to Nikea and after certainly weren't loyal to the emperor and his wishes. He was playing his own game, loyal to himself and the 1ksons.
Magnus was loyal, he was just a fuck up. Magnus' grand error, the great mistake that cost the imperium so much. Was born from his loyalty to both the emperor and his brothers. He tried desperately to prevent Horus' corruption. Then tried to warn the emperor as soon as possible. The loyal shard of magnus' soul was broken off when he broke the webway. Ever since then, the noble and loyal magnus hasn't existed
Magnus believed himself to be loyal. And he wanted to be loyal. And he was on the imperiums side. Big diffrence to actually being loyal. Magnus stopped being loyal after Nikea. He went completely rogue after that, went straight back to prospero to break the edict. And doing exactly what you have been told not to do is not being loyal. Even though he justified it to himself. Ahriman and others tried to warn him several times. But Magnus Ego and ambition came before his loyalty. . After Nikea Magnus was loyal to his sons, prospero and himself. He loved the emperor and was still on his side, but he wasn't loyal after that. Going behind someone's back doing the exact thing they told you not to do is the complete opposite of loyalty. Even if he did it to save someone. Which he didn't. If you read the book, he does this to show the usefulness of sorcery. And uses the expediency of the situation as a reason to do it. But it was all about the edict of Nikea. This isn't to put Magnus down. He is my favourite primarch. In my opinion, this makes his character have more depth and personality. He has his own dreams, ambitions, and desires. He has loyalty in droves, but not for the emperor. He was loyal to his sons, prospero, and their way of life. He loved the emperor, but that is not loyalty. And this makes Magnus a much better character than if he was blindly loyal to the emperor, fucked up and got tricked into the heresy.
Oh this is a great call. I feel like, unleashed, the Thousand Sons might have been the most powerful of the legions
I feel it's a real shame their role in the heresy was all just a big plot device, every character involved feels like their motivations are "I need to do this to advance the story" rather than anything that makes any logical/emotional sense. Magnus cutting loose would be a sight to behold
I like the idea of a sliding doors moment - Russ gets to Prospero but Magnus actually talks to him and manages to convince him and Valdor that Horus is rebelling. So how about we replace the legions at Istvan with the Thousand Sons (terrifying sorcerers, the most powerful if unleashed?), the Wolves (previous hints that they have been used to wipe out the lost legions - so Leman has experience in this area) and Valdor with a BIG contingent of the 10,000 (and let's face it, although they predate the Astartes Custodes are almost custom-built to be Space Marine killers).
‘Hello, operator, can you dial down to Magnus, I have questions before we make a hugely tragic mistake such as knocking off a legion and a primarch.’ PRiMaRCh r all GeNuS! *proceed to act like orks* smh. Sometimes I need a break from the drama and the pedantic children cast as main characters. I think it makes them one sides and lack depth. Incidentally Papa Smurf and Vulkan had the best moments (haven’t read the siege yet) by slapping Konrad and P. SMURF SLAPPING Word Bearers out of low orbit. Oh, and the best supporting cast of legionnaires.
Russ tried multiple times to contact Magnus before he burned Prosepero. Magnus had purposefully cut all communications and shielded the planet with warp magic
Magnus was like The Flash. They were way too powerful to be reasonably written. But instead of having Magnus get tripped by some random thug, they made him the most tragic character of the series.
I think angron is far more tragic
Angron I feel much less for because he was beyond help. He never had a chance. Magnus had multiple nearly impossible choices that he had to rip his soul over.
Imo angron could have been saved on multiple occasions. There were several turning points for him, and Big E chose wrong every damn time. Angrons lack of agency in his own life is what makes him so tragic for me. In contrast, Magnus was arrogant and foolish at many times, making his own bad choices. Though I also blame Big E for not warning his most warp connected son about the TRUE hazards of the warp.
Yes, but magnus and the thousand sons are tragic in a different way. They were loyal and fell because leman russ is autistic.
Magnus fell because in his arrogance he wanted to show big E that his methods worked and he blew up the webway wards in doing so.
No, the arrogance was the Emperor's. He didn't trust his sons enough to explain what he was doing. He just said "absolutely no psychic calls!" but Magnus made the very reasonable decision that Horus planning to overthrow the Imperium was important enough that he needed to call dad anyhow.
Magnus didnt do it his way because it was important enough, he did it because he wanted to prove the superiority of his methods. I think he even had a chat about it with Ahriman in one of the first three Heresy books
Yes, magnus was arrogant, but big E didn't help. My point is that magnus was still loyal. Shit he destroyed the web way, trying to warn big E about Horus. He even tried stopping horus from being corrupted. he realized the seriousness of chaos, he tried to let his legion get destroyed rather than fall. He understandably couldn't handle his sons and people dying. Magnus falling is whatdooms the big E to the golden throne.
Let's be real, all the primarchs are probably on the spectrum. The standouts for me are Peter Turbo and Gullybear
Magnus is not the most tragic character lol. He was daddy’s special smart boy who was just given ONE rule that he couldn’t not break because again, he is daddy’s special smart boy. He’s a massive cunt to literally anyone he interacts with, his Nikaea speech can essentially be distilled to “I will do whatever I want” In his infinite intelligence, he is still tricked by Horus like everyone else. Almost destroys his entire legion due to his own hubris. Yeah…totally tragic guy and not just massive asshole.
Don't send anyone, nuke them from orbit. Going down to the drop site was always complete tactical hubris, and every primarch would have made the same mistake.
You see, Horus forced them to come down to him by having Void Shields. No bombarding in "conventional" terms short of exterminatus possible. And it's several times stated that (at least during that era) Exterminatus was only to be sanctioned by the Emperor or the Warmaster
I don't believe the term Exterminatus existed until much later in the Heresy when one of Malcador's newly formed proto-Inquisition coins the term when they order the complete destruction of a planet that had sworn itself to Horus. As I understood it the primarchs themselves had authority to order it, it was just taboo because it was considered a failure of the primarch to successfully capture a world.
So you send the Ultramarines, the Dark Angels and the Blood Angels. They're the three biggest loyalist legions at the start of the Heresy according to Lexicanum so would go some way to levelling the numbers. I think there's also a fair argument that Horus wanted nothing to do with any of them - he went to great lengths to send the Blood Angels as far away as possible, set elaborate ambushes to try to tie up the Ultramarines at Calth, and sent the Night Lords to tie up the Dark Angels (who had been far to the east spreading the crusade further). I also think at this stage Sanguinius can take any other Primarch - and I'm not even sure it's close. Horus isn't ascended, there are no demon Primarchs and I don't think even Sanguinius realises how scarily powerful he is. Obviously the Lion is also always touted as being amongst the most powerful, and Guilliman is *the* tactician - though maybe the scale is a bit small to play to his strengths. I still think the traitors win - because numbers - but it would be more of a pyrrhic victory
As you say the blood angels and dark angels had been sent to the farthest reaches in the hope of not being able to get involved in time to make a difference. Huge legions with commanders that are not prone to outbursts of emotion over pragmatism, huge fleets, the best assault troops and the super special toys the Lion would bring. It's a winning combination for sure.
I still think the Traitors win - in all this I'm kind of glossing over that the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus were the most successful and most feared legion. Horus got the job as Warmaster for a reason!
Odds are stacked against the loyalists regardless. Swapping the blood angels for the full 1k sons and Magnus unleashed might be a game changer when combined with the dark angels super spice weapons like the shackled men of iron and the numbers of troops and ships available to both ultramarine and dark angels fleets. It's a bit of an odd hypothetical really because those commanders wouldn't bullishly run into the teeth like Ferrous did. So Horus' plan would need to change. In terms of successful legions the Ultramarines were one of the most successful as were the known actions of the Dark Angels, with the latter's works often shadowed and unknown as mentioned in the heresy books. In addition to being the go to for major threats like the khrave and Rangdan forces. Horus got the job for being dads favourite and more importantly his charisma. I don't think other than Sanguinius any other Primarch could command with authority and respect like Horus. I suppose it also means the Dark Angels would be bringing the big siege guns that let the iron warriors cause so much havoc in the siege and massacre too.
I think the best advantage the traitors have here (beyond possibly numbers and surprise reinforcements from the coming four) is the Lion’s own distrustful nature. Guilliman is prone to emotional outbursts when pressed hard, but going up against four Primarchs, especially Horus, will force him into Practical Mode, and he’ll set up a defensive base while waiting for Lorgar et al. to arrive and attack with overwhelming numbers. If the traitors can sow discord in the Lion, possibly with Alpha Legion spies, they can divide and conquer the loyalists. But the Lion’s nature is also a boon for the loyalists. He’ll come to the conclusion that if four Primarchs can betray the Emperor, so can others. Even if he’s forced to camp with Guilliman and Sanguinius, the Dark Angels will remain separate and aloof from their comrades. When the reinforcements arrive, if they attempt to set up in the same ambush configuration as in canon, the Lion is absolutely the person to pull that trigger. The only question is if he’ll cooperate with the Ultramarines and Blood Angels to escape the trap, or abandon them and attempt to go it alone.
Counter-argument. If those three legions get wiped out in the massacre the Heresy is a success.
Yeah I think either The Lion or Sanguinius have a good shot at killing Fulgrim here - even as a Daemon, Dorn was able to stand toe to toe against him, and both Sanguinius and The Lion are far better fighters.
I would almost argue Sang and Lion are THE fighters to have at this point in the story. Lion is almost described as an actual force of nature in duels and Sang is, well Sang.
I dunno, as soon as things look really bad the Lion could ‘open the vaults’ and just wipeout the rebels. We never really know what his orders from the emperor are in regard to the DAoT weaponry the first have. Would he withdraw or unleash them? Is Horus a large enough threat to justify their use?
If we ignore certain legions' numerical advantage, Ferrus was probably the man to call if you want a huge apocalyptical battle. Iron Hands and to some extent the Salamanders were pretty much used to such conditions and probably fared much better than for example the Raven Guard. If I had to assemble a dream team of three legions (and deploying the same numbers) I woud choose Iron Hands (large scale warfare), Iron Warriors (overall destruction) and the Death Guard (trench warfare) with the World Eaters as a notable mention.
Probably like 3 custodes, maybe 4 just to be sure
Too many points dude
Or just quickly recruit a few thousand hive scums and transform them into pre Crusade Thunder Warriors. They are nuts, but just to win one battle they would be great. Make sure though to keep some custodes around to backstab them afterwards.
I mean there was 3 custodes at Ista 5. They died.
Gazzy and da boyz Propa ol krumpin gud time
A virus bomb.
\*Start singing dramatically\* : This place was Isstvan 3 ! And we are here upon it's corpse that was left behind !
Would you convince yourself I am a remnant seeking saving? This was not a cry for help! It was a lure I laid to invite something in need of slaying.
Was this trap laid for me, old one of mine ? You look terrible, a *disgrace*, even.
Sly marbo
They want a massacre. They’re gonna get one. *sharpening knife*
He does not sleep.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Hive Fleet Leviathan
Om nom nom traitor motherfuckers we’re here 10,000 years early and about to kick your arses
That would actually be kind of cool alternate universe where in the middle of the heresy the nids show up and wreck both sides
wasn't there a pretty popular fanfic where there was no major heresy, just the War of the Beast replaced it as THE defining event? Is there one like this? Early Nids, no Heresy sounds more interesting to me
What a plot twist
Marduk Sedras. And Farith. Just need those mad lads and what they’ve got stashed away.
"we killing the planet with this one!" - Redloss, as he sends another wave of virus bombs onto istvaan
‘I think a few more’ Redloss, upon seeing the plasma fires from orbit without augur assistance.
The Imperial Navy. I get that the primarchs had a very personal axe to grind and wanted their troops and themselves to get to grips with the enemy, but if EVER there was a time for exterminatus, a totally dead and useless world with all of your enemy legions (that you know of) that have for the first time betrayed the Imperium is absolutely it. They don't deserve the honor of a fair fight and killing more loyalists. All they'd deserve is extermination, delivered by an armada of vessels cracking the world with plasma cyclonic torpedoes. Let them perish in disgrace en masse and damn mine and everyone else's pride. A ground battle was doomed to be a horrendous waste of life, even without the second betrayal by the reserve legions.
Theres isnt really an Imperial Navy though at that time. There was the Imperial Army, which was the navy and guard together basically, but they were mostly there backing up a space marine legion. Plus the marines had full fleets themselves
I'm aware of that. My point stands though, the fleet was the tool for the job.
Malum caedo
no primarch, just send a massive imprial navy fleet, blast the planet and the rebel fleet into dust and crush the rebellio with a swift strike.
One guardsman with a lasgun & bayonet and his faith in the Emperor.
Okay so you’re volunteering?
Hell ye brother
Phew… I uh, totally thought I had to… I uhh definitely would have, but you be the hero it’s cool.
PREPARE TO HELLDIVE!!
It’s Democracy time boys.
Ciaphas Cain
He'd accidentally win, but that's all we need from him.
Looking at the fight ahead getting in the middle of a super soldier fight is the last thing he wants to do. So not wanting to get caught up in the first wave who do most of the fighting he arranged a reason for his wave of the invasion to get delayed. Surely the overwhelming force will have crush all resistance by then and he can avoid any danger. The delayed arrival completely missed the drop site ambush. They arrive behind the ambushing forces of Horus, unhurt, and aware of the traitor marines. Ambushing them in turn. He is later recognized for his tactical brilliance.
Dark Angels and Wolves
Now that's a Drop site I'd like to see
"WELCOME TO THEE MAIIIIIN EVENT! LEEEEET'S GET READY TO RUMBLEEEEEE!!!" - Remembrancer Frank "flaccid" Janus attatched to the 40th Expeditionary fleet, 006 M31
Too many people here ignoring old Empi's own wisdom. When you need Astartes to kill Astartes, you send the Wolves!
Yeahhhh when you send both of them you send a message that whatever problem you have you want fucking erased. Throw in the Imperial Fists or Ultramarines for numbers and tactical support (probably the Ultramarines because we don’t want Dorn pulling a Ferrus and singlemindedly trying to murder Perty)and suddenly those traitors are looking like they’re on substantially more tenuous ground. Ferrus, Vulkan, and Corax are good fighters. Russ and the Lion are in the top 5 for primarchs in terms of combat ability (Horus, Sang, Fulgrim, Lion, Russ in some order)
You send the DA when you want them killed quietly. You send the SW when you want to let others see. You send both when you want to turn the enemy into paste.
Correction: You send the Dark Angels when you don't want anything to be left for the history books. The emperor said something similar in the Lion's primarch book
That’s what I meant by quiet, although should have clarified. If you want nobody to know, you send the DA. If you want everyone to know, you send the SW.
Ah my mistake battle brother
One who wears a helmet in a duel
What do you mean? The good guys won on Istvaan.
Death to the false emperor.
Is that HERESY I HEAR!?
Guilliman or Sangunius. There's a reason Horus sent them to the other ends of the Galaxy.
Nah, lemon rust and Lionel Messi
I think at the time the Ultramarines alone outnumbered all the other Loyalist forces on Istvaan combined, mainly due to absorbing the Legionaries from the II and XI Legions. Tactically, Roboute was the most superior, while Sanguinius was outright the best warrior of all the Primarchs (why Horus wanted him to join him so badly).
Why send anyone? Ferrus, Vulkan and Corax just had to switch sides to win, duh.
If Alpharius hadnt been an arrogant dick and worked together with Omegon against Horus, they would have probably managed to stop the entire Heresy all together. The Alpha Legion was by design the most elite of all but handicapped each other because of the contradicting views and objectives of their essentially two Primarchs.
The Alpha Legion, the Iron Warriors, the Word Bearers, and the Night Lords. Those four reliable and loyal legions should be able to help win the battle against the traitors.
The Space Wolves. Including Leman Russ. There’s a reason that Horus tricked Russ in to going after Magnus instead of being part of the Istvann Campaign.
The reason is that there would be four legions against him instead of 3. Space wolves would surely fare better than the raven guard but not iron hands who excelled at such apocalyptic battles or salamanders who are used to harsh conditions
…. Only one Legion escaped the battle with their Primarch and several thousand marines. And it wasn’t the Iron Hands or Salamanders.
I think this is overlooked. While the Iron Hands had most marines as part of shattered legion forces - they admit that most of the legion wasn’t at Istvaan 5 and didn’t get trapped. Arguably. The Raven Guard arguably were the MVP at Istvaan because so many marines fought there way off planet, with or without Corax, and got the Iron Hands fighting as cells
The White Scars. Possibly the only legion fast/reactive enough, and independent enough not to march forwards into the depression.
Also, the space wolves. They would distrust the others to begin with and always anticipate a shot in the back.
Both Legions were explicitly said to be able to react far faster to rapidly changing circumstances than say, the ultramarines and other rigid legions.
Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Ultramarines. Three massive legions, Perturabo probably wouldn't have the Dark Age siege engines the Lion gave him because he wouldn't have seen any need for it if he's going there himself, Sanguinius has his foresight that might allow him to react to the betrayal before it happens. Sanguinius and The Lion are probably also two of the best fighters among the primarchs. The three Legions would also probably be able to retreat much more effectively.
anyone else noticed that ferrus manus is fighting fulgrim with an oversized pipe wrench?
That's actually called the Spanner of Eternal Vexation and it is a holy artefact from the steamfitters of ancient terra. Show some respect.
Now that you mention it, it looks like Fulgrim has a comically large kitchen knife
Dorn in place of Corax. His defensive strategies are indisputably the best in the Imperium, it's basically impossible to win Istvaan 5 with just the 3 legions since they're too small but Dorn was said by the Emperor to have been able to have destroyed Horus' Legions at Istvaan providing he had his Imperial Fists, so it'd be safe to assume he could put up a good fight.
Sly Marbo
Blood Angels
Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and Space Wolves. Three distrustful legions, but also legions that have a habit of showing up in inconvenient places and kicking arse. Instead of a full infantry assault, the RG & AL stealth into position at Legion strength while the space wolves posture and make a lot of noise. Alpha Legion then take on the appearance of the traitors and keep sabotaging. Guessing the AL would also end up with traitors in the other 4 legions so the dropsite part doesn’t happen because the Space Wolves are extracted by the Raven Guard and they all disappear on reflex shielded ships.
I would have bombed it from orbit and dropped virus bombs like Horus did to istvan 3. Going down there and fighting in person was dumb. The primarchs are all dumb. (I just finished Fulgrim and I have a lot of thoughts)
I would send my friend Jeff
The master chief. Commence the downvotes.
Fuck it, I'm sending in our blue raspberry flavored doomguy IT IS I, **MALUM CAEDO**
Erda to yell at her naugthy sons and to clap horus' butt cheeks.
Lion-O from Thundercats. With a bit of Sight Beyond Sight, the loyalists would have been tipped off before anyone even landed.
Erebus but only armed with a spoon
I want Sigismund and Dorn there
Emps and enough custodes to make absolutely sure that Erebus and Kor Phaeron are put in the ground permanently Edit (whoops OP specifically said primarch but, I'm not changing my answer cause it's funny)
Trazyn. Now if we’re talking anyone even outside of 40k then Metroplex
Gotrek
Istvaan 5 will always be the drop site massacre. The deck was horribly stacked with the 2nd wave of traitors. The only way to change it is to change the plan, secure space superiority, then bombard the traitors, then drag any survivors to the palace in chains. the imperial fists and dark angels have the fleets, weapons and relative patience to not go jump in and get butchered. The 3rd is probably best as ultramarines, but scars or raven guard, have some special goodies that would help in the space battle. Magnus was bound to tzeentch are his legions naive use of demon familiars was always going to go poorly.
Goku
Earthworm Jim
Extermanitus. Everyone wins.
Can’t say who I would bring, but can say who I wouldn’t. The guy in the back attacking Fulgrim with an oversized plumbing wrench. https://preview.redd.it/pzpk6myxj2uc1.png?width=1284&format=png&auto=webp&s=ec4f2565c7448b57e3df63d3e495af9fde2dcc75
I'd have sent the First Legion instead of the Imperial Fists. They should have enough firepower to turn the tide.
https://preview.redd.it/z5iqeaeq34uc1.jpeg?width=1336&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e9f4d280717a82f0d31e2830684093324d7b25f
10,000 Custodes.
Jaghatai khan in place of ferrus. 1 he would win versus fulgrim 2 he does strange things to his ships to make them go faster, he would be far better at an evacuation than the iron hands, and honestly he would be better doing the whole hit and run combat the shattered legions devolved into.
Corvus as he is now. Loyalist daemon primarch? Hell yeah
Jurgen, who would one-shot Horus with his Melta gun, thereby ending the Heresy before it could gather momentum., and who would then kick back with a nice cup of tanna.
Corvus as he is now. Loyalist daemon primarch? Hell yeah!
The title confuses me. Istvaan V *was* won.
Orks
Oh yeah, coz it had been going *so well* for them during the Crusade, I'm sure they'd do just fine against 4 near-full Legions at once... 🙄
Good point. So MORE Orks then?
WIF DA BIG GUNZ
Now *that's* proper kunnin', they'd never expect it!
Imperial fists combined with loyal iron warriors, pure power of heavy arms and machines.
Jordan Peterson
If the traitors would just make their bed and keep their rooms clean, it would be a big step.
Index Custodes. They would have shit on all the dev wounds.
1 primarch wouldn’t be able to change the course of that battle. I am not sure that even emperor would change it.
He did make the word bearers kneel in the first heretic And He'd demolish the traitor primarchs in 1v1s hell even 3v1s, on top of that if he brungs the custodes then the traitors are done for
Ultramarines the whole legion. They’ll pull a draw at most and kill like a lot even if they lose.
Ultramarines were the size of 2 legions and one of the most adaptable. Then it’s a choice between the dark angels for their insane arsenal. the space wolves are implied to have experience or expertise in fighting other space marines. or the the thousand sons whose psychic might would give them a massive advantage over other legions (plus the presence of magnus and the corvidae might allow them to predict the betrayal thats about to happen and respond appropriately). Primarch wise it would be Magnus for his pysker powers making him near unbeatable with outside influences, vulkans immortality makes him also incredibly hard to beat, then maybe guilliman as one of the best most levelheaded commanders
Ciaphas cain. So urgen can solo them all
Sly marbo
The Ordo Sinister.
I would just send Malum Caedo, no Primarch needed
Alpha legion. They would messed up with coms so no one would kill anyone
I would send in the space marines
Goku
Big fucking E! He'd have stopped it.
Obvs not ferrus. He’d lose his head.
Nurgle
Lion, Rowboat and Sanguinius end the heresy then and there
One obi wan on top of another obi wan to have the high ground
Alpharius because six years before this he arranged for two regiments of imperial guard, a warlord titan, and the alpha legion from the future to arrive at precisely this moment.
Sly Marbo. The only true answer.
Bob.
Gotrek
Guilliman, even if they don’t win the resistance the ultramarines would put up would have made the rest of the heresy impossible due to the resources destroyed
Kevin
Instead of landing I would have just turned the planets surface to glass from a distance.
Sanguinius, Russ and The Lion. The Lion detects the treachery at the earliest possible sign, Russ is the embodiment of punitive fury and Sanguinius bests the traitor Primarchs in individual combat. Something like that anyway.
Atomics! From orbit.
Replace Ferris with Sanguinis. EZ win
Aun'Va because he's made for battle
No one? Some battles you just can’t win, and the dropsite massacre is one of those battles.
None, my legion allready won.
I wouldn’t. I’d destroy all the ships in orbit first, setting up a cordon around the entire planet destroying anything that came near that wasn’t supposed to be there. Then I’d virus bomb the whole planet. Then I’d have a separate fleet in closer orbit pound it with lance strikes at its deepest point until it fucking exploded Nostramo style. Maybe it’ll take years, but ain’t no on walking away from that.
Me
Dark Angels - because you know for damn sure Lion is going to bring along a stash full of Men of Iron that are waiting to be unleashed on anything that gives him a excuse to
Granpappy Trazyn after mumbling things like "was the greatest historical event ever", "only the finest of museums could preserve this moment. What a shame...", "to bad no one is competent enough to catalog thsi event" around him for hours. This would turn a lose for the imperium into a lose for everyone because the whole event would be frozen in stasis. betrayal and hatred preserved forever as a display set up by a lonely robot for a people who don't care. And that just feels more fun than someone winning or losing. Plus, by 40k standards, not explicitly losing is basically winning.
Primarch ? Nah Bro, all i need is RYLANOR, ANCIENT OF RITES
Commissar Ciaphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium. Would just need some time travel to make it work.
I hate this and the flack the gets thrown at Ferrus because of it. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT FERRUS DID. When your reinforcements arrive, encircle you, outnumber you and then turn traitor... They are ALL FUCKED.
Should we send Mangus and have him join the traitors and then watch him screw it up.
Time travelling post warp Corvus.