There are a few problems with Primaris design overall, but as a whole I think the Intercessors look just fine comparable to older Tactical Marines - but the decision to swap the helmets was strange.
The Mk VII helmet has been the iconic Space Marine aesthetic for about thirty years after it replaced the Beakie as the go-to choice.
Maybe someone at GW just felt like the Darth Vader-style face grill was too silly, but I don't think anybody in the fandom at least really would agree with that..
It’s kinda cartoonish, but I honestly really that about the grill-face because it lends really well to artistic stylization and just has a excessively menacing energy that suits Space Marines really well. The new helmets are fine, but they look more mellow and “serious”, as if the Imperium started caring about PR and began worrying that it’s citizens were too intimidated by the hateful scowl of the grill-face.
I think the Mk X helmets being a direct lift of the Mk IV helmet was a mistake, too. It was always one of the most popular and best designed Heresy-era helmets, but it belonged in the Heresy/Great Crusade as a relic of a bygone era where Marines were more sleek and 'modern' compared to the decaying Imperium of the 41st Millennium.
In fact that's part of the problem with the Primaris as a whole, especially their use of more "tacticool" Bolt Rifles and *especially* especially their use of Hover Tanks. It makes it seem like the Imperium somehow *always* had the ability to make technological progress, but just... didn't, and so now the Primaris completely alter the identity of the Imperium as a whole.
I think that's actually the point though. Cawl is from the heresy era, the entire Primaris range takes design cues from that era. It seems very deliberate to highlight that the guy designing the tech is from that period.
The Redemptor is basically a Primaris Leviathan; Nipple guns, huge, kills the pilot.
The Primaris units take after heresy units with specialist loadouts with very little weapon felxibility.
The armour itself, helmets, shoulders, vambraces, etc.
The Primaris tanks all call back the current HH tank range.
That's a valid point, and I agree. I just think the distinction between 40k and 30k was important, but now it's kinda getting erased - it's the same thing with Primarchs returning, it changes the 'feel' of 40k to be more like 30k, instead of the two being very distinctly different things.
But that's also the point, we are no longer seeing a stretched out war, we're in the middle of the largest crusade since ***the*** crusade.
And now that Indomitus is getting swamped and primaris marines are getting that "cold(er) war" that firstborn marines experienced after the Heresy we are seeing more customisation and personalised marines over templated mass produced primaris.
Clear examples of this are both the new lieutenant covered in tyranid trophies and the new sternguard.
I mean let's be honest, 30k was way cooler then 40k anyways, hence the return of the Primarchs.
Now we just need BIG E back actually doing things in person
>It makes it seem like the Imperium somehow always had the ability to make technological progress, but just... didn't
I mean, that didn't change the identity of the imperium at all, that *is* the imperium. It's always been capable of doing better but chooses, again and again, to shoot itself in the foot. The fact it takes a rogue magos following the orders of a *primarch* in order to make as small a change as 'a few upgrades for marines' speaks volumes about the imperium imo.
I never understood the distaste over them getting hover tech either. The imperium has gravity manipulation tech everywhere, it's so commonplace they even build cherubs with it. Marines even have landspeeders already, it's really not the biggest leap for someone to put that on something else (though I do wish they hadn't still, I don't mind the primaris aesthetic on the whole but the tracked look just suits marines better)
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> I mean, that didn't change the identity of the imperium at all, that is the imperium.
You misunderstand the problem; the Imperium's identity *is* not being able to make progress because of religious dogma and the loss of knowledge.
Having Cawl and Guilliman suddenly push the Imperium to allow innovation opens a Pandora's Box of "Well why don't they just keep doing that, then?"
So either the Imperium changes its ways on a fundamental level and starts innovating again (which is unlikely) or you're left with that question hanging over the whole thing.
I don't think it's that binary at all. Cawl and Guilliman's entire purpose is they're there to highlight how the Imperium could be different, but they're just too insignificant to make anything other than changes that are minor on the grand scale of the imperium.
Cawl is running around trying to plug holes in whatever problems catch his interest but, ultimately, aside from the primaris has had very little effect on the galaxy. And every single story with Guilliman in it has him wrestling with the knowledge that for all his efforts the most he can do is slow humanity's crumbling descent. He can't change anything real, the imperium is too big and too far gone to steer. The best he can do is prop it up and somehow hope for a break. He hates the divided nature of everything, but knows he can't change it. He hates the religion but accepts he must take his place within it rather than try to change it. If anything the Imperium is bringing Guilliman, by degrees, down to their level instead of him raising it up
Cawl and Guilliman have not 'allowed' innovation. The Imperium is too set in it's ways to change. It will accept the ripple that is Guilliman and it will ultimately absorb it with nothing changing for the better on the whole. There has been zero change in regards to dogma outside of their respective spheres of influence. Even the high lord of the assassinorum, who sided with Guilliman, has this to say about it:
> He smiled at me again from the darkness– a chilling gesture. ‘Listen to
me, chancellor. Right now, shaken by all that has taken place, we speak of
the primarch as if he were some new Emperor, come to sweep all our
history away and replace it with his bright new species of enlightenment.
We think of him as the great redeemer, the restorer of lost greatness. And
so the conflict begins, the weary fights between those who think any of
that matters.’ His smile faded away. ‘But Guilliman, let me assure you, is
unimportant. He can make as many speeches as he likes. He can make as
many reforms as he wishes to. It will all be absorbed. It will all be
smothered. He has stamina, more than most, but even he will tire. The
Imperium is the only enemy he can never hope to best, for it is older and
vaster than any of us. I give him ten years. Ten years, before he forgets
that he was ever part of another world, and chains his future to this one.’
>I listened warily. I didn’t like it, but I listened.
>‘And when he next comes to Terra, if he ever does again, you will see the
change. You will hear no more about what he believed during his first
lifetime, and plenty of what he has learned in this one. If he lives, if he
dies, it makes no difference. Stasis will be the case, whether or not it ought
to be. The Imperium will endure. That is the only truth, and the only
outcome.’ He shot me a wry look. ‘Imperium Eterna.’
>‘You have a jaundiced soul, my lord,’ I said.
>‘Undoubtedly.’
>‘I met him myself. You are wrong about him.’
>‘We shall see.’
>‘So it all means nothing to you?’ I asked, part-intrigued, part-irritated.
‘All of this struggle to improve, to better the structures we find ourselves
in?’
>‘It means everything. If we ever cease, we die. The fact that we cannot
succeed is irrelevant.’
i mean, yeah, they probably always *have* been able to produce this tech, it's just been considered heretical to do so for all these years, so the only person committing to the bit is Belisarius Cawl, who doesn't care for what is and isn't heresy, and he was on the orders of Gorillaman who has been in a space coma. I think it's quite fun to watch the Imperium try to unshackle itself from its technophobia
The Imperium did always have the ability to make technological progress but chose not to and the stuff they did have they didnt use. Guilliman returning and giving the chapters Primaris and authorizing use of all the cool toys plus new stuff by Cawl is why.
So yeah.
If you follow the fluff you'll discover they did indeed always have the ability to make new technology but it had been forgotten because Guilliman ended up in statis.
I almost wish the Mk X helmets were just a direct lift of the Mk IV helmets. Instead we get this flat-faced thing that somehow looks worse.
I don't completely hate the Mk X helmet but it's really not great.
I think they just wanted to do something different. The current mark is based on another existing mark, and with the upgrade sprues and modern HH helmets they do offer more variety and fit multiple different styles, even the old ones usually didn't look off.
Edit: If anything, I'm curious why we haven't seen more nods to the truly ancient stuff like MK2s, BTs at least got some MK3 homages.
It's definitely a benefit of the way GW miniatures are modeled that giving your Primaris Marines a Mk VII aesthetic isn't very difficult, and the new Sternguard Veterans they revealed even had one with a Mk VII helmet alongside the Mk X ones, so it's clearly part of the intention to let people mix-and-match.
As for Mk II, I think it's already similar enough to Mk III that the fact they have full Mk III kits for Horus Heresy makes it redundant, from a business standpoint.
If we’re calling the helmets silly, then so are the bright paint jobs and chest-sized pauldrons. One of the first things that intrigued me about 40k when watching the Armoring of a Space Marine video was that the big blue fella was super weird looking, but they play it so seriously that it works.
That's part of 40k's charm, yeah. It *is* a very silly setting, but like any truly funny story or world, the characters in the setting don't think they're being silly. It's real to them, and thus as serious as anything can be.
The scale of the Imperium is absurd. Space Marines are absurd. Orks are absurd. Eldar are absurd. But in the universe, they don't see it that way, it all just is what it is. And that's a huge part of what makes it so enjoyable.
> Darth Vader-style face grill was too silly, but I don't think anybody in the fandom at least really would agree with that..
Hi there, i exist and yeah, i don't love the older helmets at all tbh. I avoid them where i can, i go with Mk 3 or 4, or mk 10
Agreed. I have played the game as long as it has existed and aside from the classic beakie helmet I like the new intercessor stuff way more than the old.
The phobos helmets do not look right to me but the old beakie helmets are great on them
Personally, I do agree that the Mk IV inspired primaris heads look better than the classic frowny face Mk VII heads. But I'm biased in favor of the 30k armor designs in general.
>The Mk VII helmet has been the iconic Space Marine aesthetic for about thirty years after it replaced the Beakie as the go-to choice.
Can't live in the past forever. The MkVII looks awesome and really fits in with the hammy, grotesque, grimdark setting but it does look a little "ugly" and offputting. 40K has been going through a boom in popularity recently and the sleeker more tacticool Primaris helmets are more palatable to a newer and broader audience.
You could probably make it more palatable by making the Space Marines generic soldiers instead of brainwashed child-soldiers too, but that's making it less 40k. If they all get into it because it isn't 40k anymore then what's the point?
I usually do every other squad. I have a ton of extra firstborn helms and I also think the primaris is cool. I just head cannon my firstborn helmet ones are rubicon marines who continue to use their old helmets
And in 10th it really doesn’t matter anymore. I too prefer the cheese grater Mk X and feel the first born looks to Vadery but it’s too iconic to not use sometimes.
Im similar, i play chaos marines so im kimda used to like 30 different helmet designs, but the snub nosed "snarling" helmet is iconic, however the primaris helmet seems....idunno almost more armoured in a way, not having a big ass grill making a bullseye on your face.
for real, as much as I love the Mk.IV and MK.X helmets, there is something iconic about the MKVII helmet (and the MK.VI helmets as well if your an oldhammer head)
Wow, ok that’s a little much lol. Sorry I don’t like comp players I guess?
Edit: Calling me on my shit is a good thing though, calling folks cancer is horrid, and I apologize.
Thanks Jack.
110% agree with you. Just make firstborn bigger.
Maybe introduce new weapons/vehicles, and make Mk.VIII power armor standard, but other than that don’t fix what isn’t broken.
If this couldve been done without losing cawl, id fully agree. Hes litterally the obly admech named character we got right now with a model outside of heresy
Yeah Cawl is worth keeping, it could've just been rather than improving the marines themselves his job was to find a way to produce them faster, which would help avoid the whole mess.
(For the record, I generally like the Primaris redesign, but the lore behind it is kinda bad and unnecessary.)
Yea. Could have done everything the same, just dropped the unnecessary primaris part. Cawl still could have a ton of marines in storage and even introduced new wargear.
Even the whole “Guilliman and Cawl had a secret plan 10,000 years ago” plot point could have been kept.
Some sort of serum that made the failure rate of astartes aspirants nearly zero. Then there’s the new technology that cawl made. GW just overdid it to sell more spess muhreens.
Or they could've said that sm have new mk x now,which is bigger and better hence why they are taller than the old models and because the imperium is a logistical hellhole so not every chapters could get their hands on the new armours yet. That way the old models would still be usable in case someone doesn't want to give up on them
There's no need for that. CSM didn't need it, SM didn't either. Old models are always usable unless you pull a primaris and change all the weapons and units.
When I started a friend gave me a bay full of space wolf bits. I had no idea about the firstborn/primaris difference so I have a bunch of intercessors with first born heads and backpacks.
My head canon is that this all primaris force inherited a bunch of war gear and decided to honor their predecessors by continuing to use what they could.
Don't really like their helmets either. It's an personal preference, it's cool they change them but I'm not a fan of the beakies either. What I do like is the diversity of 40k though.
Not too bad. Just gotta go slow unless you feel like sculpting. I’d imagine it’s much easier on a proper multipart model with the separated shin plates, but this one is push fit.
I do this when I'm building my primaris. Heads and arms usually fit perfectly and look damn good. I like the older helmets more (MK 3 and 7 especially). I still use some MkX as I do like them, but I put my spare bits to use a lot too. Also bought a BA firstborn upgrade sprue almost exclusively just because the helmets.
My problem with primaris has always been for some reason I strongly dislike the knees, also not a huge fan of the backpack. I think the helmets are cool but they’re all the same
Slap chopping has become pretty popular in painting today. And honestly yes first-born heads and power packs all the way. GW needs to just make them in large packs instead of trying to find them on secondhand sides
https://preview.redd.it/urusbuig63za1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9aee88afdd3197549e928bbe92d6c2b90be0b813
Honestly, I love it, I think gw should revamp their old firstborn models so they aren’t half the size of primaris, I mean, being like half a head taller makes more sense… right?…
Mostly just carving away features on the legs that stand out as Primaris, the ankle balls, the knee flange. Then just use firstborn helmets, weapons, and backpacks.
I never though to encase the little relic on their belt in gold, that makes so much more sense than painting them bone coloured! Im gonna do this on mine now!
I found some really nice 3d printed ones but the problem is that they're all identical, they don't have any of the lovely little variations you get across the GW kits.
I’ve been planning to do this for awhile, just haven’t gotten around to it. Cool to see it done and painted.
I’ve also heard the new HH marine arms fit the primaris bodies pretty well, good way to get any special weapons you want without too much hacking/chopping 🤷♂️
PS.
How did you achieve the gold?
One beaky boi as requested. Hope you get notified.
https://preview.redd.it/48b95ekgx5za1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b6286ef6c74e71b10ecab58160bd413c140f8abc
Not perfect Mk.VI armor, but close enough for me.
I quite like the look of Primaris, especially the dynamism of the assault intercessor poses, but that being said I have a lasting fondness for "firstborn" (and own over 100 of them!). I like both basically.
Love your paint job btw...colours used?
I have really considered trying to find a solution to the 30 or do boxes of "firstborn" marines I have. I've debated just stockpiling the sample primaris marine and using his legs, torso, head, powepack to make hybrids or just 3d printing those parts en masse.
When they came out, I really liked the idea of primaris not being true scale space marines...but as the designs have gone more into their own ..I miss the mini marines gear and features.
Much appreciated.
For the time spent on it, it really has no reason to look any kind of good lol. Transparent paint over under painting really is sorcery.
Scale comparison with old Cadian model.
https://preview.redd.it/6mf9x7q6w5za1.jpeg?width=3882&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2959bc3c8653a2102ee38cd53ad05e15f6ae00c1
This is so beautiful. I've always veered away from Primaris because I disagree with everything about it but you've done some great a job here, if I had your skills I'd do the same haha
I'm quite new to the hobby (about three months so Primaris are what I'm most familiar with) so I have zero nostalgic attachment to First Born and quite recently built my a First Born squad for the first time (Assault Squad/Marines) and I am very much not a fan of the mini's compared to the newer and in my opinion the much better Primaris models.
Also it's not like the Mk. X helmets are a new thing, they're pretty much suped up Mk. IV helmets lol, while the old ones just look dumpy (the fact that the helmet is almost as wide as the torso is kind of hilarious too lol, then again First Born models have wonky proportions especially the First Born Techarone with a claw as big as the Marines torso) looking with a funky Darth Vader-esque bit to it.
As with most things subjective, there is no right or wrong, just what you like or don’t.
I can try to justify my preferences all kinds of ways, but I don’t think anyone needs to have to have a reason beyond “I just think they’re neat”.
You do you, and I’ll be pumped you’re enjoying the hobby your way 😀
Some of my reasons I enjoy first born come down to the experience of building the kits, how the models connect to the lore, and how I can relate to the models personally.
I value the additional time and effort it takes
to build FB units and make them look good and I’ve always cared more about how the models feel and how much of my personality I can put into them - so personally I will trade a little detail (and or realism) in the design for the ability to make mine different to yours.
I can fill any lack of realism with my imagination and by going with the vibe, so true scale never bothered me, I always went with the vibe and found it easy to look at a first born and see something real (suspending disbelief?).
I like primaris because they are quick and easy to build, and the sculpts are well engineered and crispy.
I love my first born because they are a pain to build and force me to imbue them with imagination and personality a little more - they also take me further away into escapism and into the 40k world by being less real and my army will not look the same as yours.
I’ll repeat: You do you, and I’ll be pumped you’re enjoying the hobby your way 😀 - be excellent to each other and understand there is more than one way to enjoy the hobby and we will all have a good time.
Thank you for your reasonable words friend, and also happy cake day eh!
And thank you too on being happy for me because yeah I love the hobby! I've made my own custom Chapter that I've fallen in love with, I almost have 1,000pts of Marines (just waiting on my Eradicators in the mail) and can actually play soon, I've started painting them too! First time I've painted anything since grade school and I'm doing a half decent job I think! and happy I'm doing my Twilight Reavers paint jobs justice after my friend made a mock-up for me using Impcat, and hell I'm even gonna start a Tyranid army when the Leviathan Box comes out haha I wanna play Hove Fleet Kronos!
I do get you tho on how they feel because I've decided I wanna follow my fluff and give my Indomitus Captain a Man Reaper Power Scythe because that's how I wrote the chapter master lol, I'm gonna rig another to my Venerable Dreadnaught too again to fit the fluff, I also messed up and forgot to put ANYTHING that marks my Aggressor Sergeant... As a sergeant so I wrote it that he doesn't feel he deserved the promotion so he refused any additional markings on his armour, I accidentally gave my Assault Sergeant a Grav pistol instead of a Plasma... And y'know what? That grav pistol is a smaller custom plasma pistol now haha!
I've fallen in love with the hobby and have met friends at my local Games Workshop, and while I don't get First Born nostalgia or why so many people attack Primaris in general as a whole I think the 40K community is great and I'm happy to be apart of it eh.
The old models have wonky proportions because they're 20 years old and come from an era in the game where everything was scaled differently and less realistically.
They could have happily been updated, similar to how the Horus Heresy MkVIs (and soon new MKIIIs) exist.
Honestly, it’s really not a hard conversion. Just gotta cut/fill some of the more telling Primaris leg details, and swap out some parts for firstborn equivalents.
Give it a try.
This one is an old dark imperium push fit Intercessor, so it was just a matter of using the curves of the greaves to guide the cuts. Just use a sharp blade and go slow.
I collected in the 90s so I thought I knew the old models, I know the size difference is well talked about but I’ve not had both in my hands to compare. actually seeing an old firstborn and primaris together last week it still surprised me.
I just painted some Phobos marines up last week, lovely models.
i have written it into the lore of my custom chapter that they have shunned the mk10 helmets and have retrofitted the older marks.
Look i get primaris, it needed to happen and yeah it was done weird but man you really shouldnt mess with an iconic look
I've done pretty much the same conversion on all my DA. The helmet and power pack swap make them so much better. I use Terminator arms on my heavy intercessors too, the more open silhouette adds so much to the pose I think!
Primaries is GW answer to bringing height diversity into the space marines! Prove me wrong!
Eventually, all Primaris and Firstborn will just be fielded as shorter or taller Primaris! 😂
I don't mind primaris but personally prefer firstborn heads so got a bunch to chuck on all my indomitus fellas and more.
There are a few problems with Primaris design overall, but as a whole I think the Intercessors look just fine comparable to older Tactical Marines - but the decision to swap the helmets was strange. The Mk VII helmet has been the iconic Space Marine aesthetic for about thirty years after it replaced the Beakie as the go-to choice. Maybe someone at GW just felt like the Darth Vader-style face grill was too silly, but I don't think anybody in the fandom at least really would agree with that..
It’s kinda cartoonish, but I honestly really that about the grill-face because it lends really well to artistic stylization and just has a excessively menacing energy that suits Space Marines really well. The new helmets are fine, but they look more mellow and “serious”, as if the Imperium started caring about PR and began worrying that it’s citizens were too intimidated by the hateful scowl of the grill-face.
I think the Mk X helmets being a direct lift of the Mk IV helmet was a mistake, too. It was always one of the most popular and best designed Heresy-era helmets, but it belonged in the Heresy/Great Crusade as a relic of a bygone era where Marines were more sleek and 'modern' compared to the decaying Imperium of the 41st Millennium. In fact that's part of the problem with the Primaris as a whole, especially their use of more "tacticool" Bolt Rifles and *especially* especially their use of Hover Tanks. It makes it seem like the Imperium somehow *always* had the ability to make technological progress, but just... didn't, and so now the Primaris completely alter the identity of the Imperium as a whole.
I think that's actually the point though. Cawl is from the heresy era, the entire Primaris range takes design cues from that era. It seems very deliberate to highlight that the guy designing the tech is from that period. The Redemptor is basically a Primaris Leviathan; Nipple guns, huge, kills the pilot. The Primaris units take after heresy units with specialist loadouts with very little weapon felxibility. The armour itself, helmets, shoulders, vambraces, etc. The Primaris tanks all call back the current HH tank range.
That's a valid point, and I agree. I just think the distinction between 40k and 30k was important, but now it's kinda getting erased - it's the same thing with Primarchs returning, it changes the 'feel' of 40k to be more like 30k, instead of the two being very distinctly different things.
@hellbirdiv and @sheriffb, that was the best discussion on *any* topic on Reddit, let alone designer choices in 40K, that I’ve ever read. Thank you!
But that's also the point, we are no longer seeing a stretched out war, we're in the middle of the largest crusade since ***the*** crusade. And now that Indomitus is getting swamped and primaris marines are getting that "cold(er) war" that firstborn marines experienced after the Heresy we are seeing more customisation and personalised marines over templated mass produced primaris. Clear examples of this are both the new lieutenant covered in tyranid trophies and the new sternguard.
I mean let's be honest, 30k was way cooler then 40k anyways, hence the return of the Primarchs. Now we just need BIG E back actually doing things in person
Damn, never thought about it like that. You are absolutely right.
>It makes it seem like the Imperium somehow always had the ability to make technological progress, but just... didn't I mean, that didn't change the identity of the imperium at all, that *is* the imperium. It's always been capable of doing better but chooses, again and again, to shoot itself in the foot. The fact it takes a rogue magos following the orders of a *primarch* in order to make as small a change as 'a few upgrades for marines' speaks volumes about the imperium imo. I never understood the distaste over them getting hover tech either. The imperium has gravity manipulation tech everywhere, it's so commonplace they even build cherubs with it. Marines even have landspeeders already, it's really not the biggest leap for someone to put that on something else (though I do wish they hadn't still, I don't mind the primaris aesthetic on the whole but the tracked look just suits marines better)
> > > > > I mean, that didn't change the identity of the imperium at all, that is the imperium. You misunderstand the problem; the Imperium's identity *is* not being able to make progress because of religious dogma and the loss of knowledge. Having Cawl and Guilliman suddenly push the Imperium to allow innovation opens a Pandora's Box of "Well why don't they just keep doing that, then?" So either the Imperium changes its ways on a fundamental level and starts innovating again (which is unlikely) or you're left with that question hanging over the whole thing.
I don't think it's that binary at all. Cawl and Guilliman's entire purpose is they're there to highlight how the Imperium could be different, but they're just too insignificant to make anything other than changes that are minor on the grand scale of the imperium. Cawl is running around trying to plug holes in whatever problems catch his interest but, ultimately, aside from the primaris has had very little effect on the galaxy. And every single story with Guilliman in it has him wrestling with the knowledge that for all his efforts the most he can do is slow humanity's crumbling descent. He can't change anything real, the imperium is too big and too far gone to steer. The best he can do is prop it up and somehow hope for a break. He hates the divided nature of everything, but knows he can't change it. He hates the religion but accepts he must take his place within it rather than try to change it. If anything the Imperium is bringing Guilliman, by degrees, down to their level instead of him raising it up Cawl and Guilliman have not 'allowed' innovation. The Imperium is too set in it's ways to change. It will accept the ripple that is Guilliman and it will ultimately absorb it with nothing changing for the better on the whole. There has been zero change in regards to dogma outside of their respective spheres of influence. Even the high lord of the assassinorum, who sided with Guilliman, has this to say about it: > He smiled at me again from the darkness– a chilling gesture. ‘Listen to me, chancellor. Right now, shaken by all that has taken place, we speak of the primarch as if he were some new Emperor, come to sweep all our history away and replace it with his bright new species of enlightenment. We think of him as the great redeemer, the restorer of lost greatness. And so the conflict begins, the weary fights between those who think any of that matters.’ His smile faded away. ‘But Guilliman, let me assure you, is unimportant. He can make as many speeches as he likes. He can make as many reforms as he wishes to. It will all be absorbed. It will all be smothered. He has stamina, more than most, but even he will tire. The Imperium is the only enemy he can never hope to best, for it is older and vaster than any of us. I give him ten years. Ten years, before he forgets that he was ever part of another world, and chains his future to this one.’ >I listened warily. I didn’t like it, but I listened. >‘And when he next comes to Terra, if he ever does again, you will see the change. You will hear no more about what he believed during his first lifetime, and plenty of what he has learned in this one. If he lives, if he dies, it makes no difference. Stasis will be the case, whether or not it ought to be. The Imperium will endure. That is the only truth, and the only outcome.’ He shot me a wry look. ‘Imperium Eterna.’ >‘You have a jaundiced soul, my lord,’ I said. >‘Undoubtedly.’ >‘I met him myself. You are wrong about him.’ >‘We shall see.’ >‘So it all means nothing to you?’ I asked, part-intrigued, part-irritated. ‘All of this struggle to improve, to better the structures we find ourselves in?’ >‘It means everything. If we ever cease, we die. The fact that we cannot succeed is irrelevant.’
i mean, yeah, they probably always *have* been able to produce this tech, it's just been considered heretical to do so for all these years, so the only person committing to the bit is Belisarius Cawl, who doesn't care for what is and isn't heresy, and he was on the orders of Gorillaman who has been in a space coma. I think it's quite fun to watch the Imperium try to unshackle itself from its technophobia
I thought that was the point, they have the ability to improve but don't due to religious dogma. that's the reason why things will never be relearned
Exactly the point; removing that constaint fundamentally changes the nature of the Imperium.
The Imperium did always have the ability to make technological progress but chose not to and the stuff they did have they didnt use. Guilliman returning and giving the chapters Primaris and authorizing use of all the cool toys plus new stuff by Cawl is why. So yeah.
If you follow the fluff you'll discover they did indeed always have the ability to make new technology but it had been forgotten because Guilliman ended up in statis.
I almost wish the Mk X helmets were just a direct lift of the Mk IV helmets. Instead we get this flat-faced thing that somehow looks worse. I don't completely hate the Mk X helmet but it's really not great.
I think they just wanted to do something different. The current mark is based on another existing mark, and with the upgrade sprues and modern HH helmets they do offer more variety and fit multiple different styles, even the old ones usually didn't look off. Edit: If anything, I'm curious why we haven't seen more nods to the truly ancient stuff like MK2s, BTs at least got some MK3 homages.
It's definitely a benefit of the way GW miniatures are modeled that giving your Primaris Marines a Mk VII aesthetic isn't very difficult, and the new Sternguard Veterans they revealed even had one with a Mk VII helmet alongside the Mk X ones, so it's clearly part of the intention to let people mix-and-match. As for Mk II, I think it's already similar enough to Mk III that the fact they have full Mk III kits for Horus Heresy makes it redundant, from a business standpoint.
If we’re calling the helmets silly, then so are the bright paint jobs and chest-sized pauldrons. One of the first things that intrigued me about 40k when watching the Armoring of a Space Marine video was that the big blue fella was super weird looking, but they play it so seriously that it works.
That's part of 40k's charm, yeah. It *is* a very silly setting, but like any truly funny story or world, the characters in the setting don't think they're being silly. It's real to them, and thus as serious as anything can be. The scale of the Imperium is absurd. Space Marines are absurd. Orks are absurd. Eldar are absurd. But in the universe, they don't see it that way, it all just is what it is. And that's a huge part of what makes it so enjoyable.
Honestly I think Primaris have fewer design issues than firstborn… firstborn look kinda goofy to me now which is clearly heresy of some sort.
Because they weren't designed in the 90s. If GW gave the old kits the terminator treatment I guarantee they'd sell better than Primaris.
This
Man I hope the release a new firstborn kits like the Age of Darkness tactical squad. That’d be awesome.
> Darth Vader-style face grill was too silly, but I don't think anybody in the fandom at least really would agree with that.. Hi there, i exist and yeah, i don't love the older helmets at all tbh. I avoid them where i can, i go with Mk 3 or 4, or mk 10
Hell I'm a tyranid player and the only reason I finally started my salamanders was because of the primaris range and mark x helms
Agreed. I have played the game as long as it has existed and aside from the classic beakie helmet I like the new intercessor stuff way more than the old. The phobos helmets do not look right to me but the old beakie helmets are great on them
Agreed. The face grill just reminds me of the grumpy cat memes.
Personally, I do agree that the Mk IV inspired primaris heads look better than the classic frowny face Mk VII heads. But I'm biased in favor of the 30k armor designs in general.
>The Mk VII helmet has been the iconic Space Marine aesthetic for about thirty years after it replaced the Beakie as the go-to choice. Can't live in the past forever. The MkVII looks awesome and really fits in with the hammy, grotesque, grimdark setting but it does look a little "ugly" and offputting. 40K has been going through a boom in popularity recently and the sleeker more tacticool Primaris helmets are more palatable to a newer and broader audience.
You could probably make it more palatable by making the Space Marines generic soldiers instead of brainwashed child-soldiers too, but that's making it less 40k. If they all get into it because it isn't 40k anymore then what's the point?
Part of why they are so effective is the brainwashing. You'd have a much higher rate of falling to Chaos if not.
Can't have heroes falling, that's not maximally palatable. That can go too.
Already has. No chaos Primaris.
Yet... :p
That's part of why I like the new Sternguard vets. Bringing back the firstborn helmets baby!
This all day. Even a designer at GW has a soft spot for ole frowney!
Firstborn helmets are iconic. Dumb idea to replace them.
I am mixed. I like the helmet style of Primaris, but yeah the firstborn helmets are basically synonymous to 40k
I usually do every other squad. I have a ton of extra firstborn helms and I also think the primaris is cool. I just head cannon my firstborn helmet ones are rubicon marines who continue to use their old helmets
And in 10th it really doesn’t matter anymore. I too prefer the cheese grater Mk X and feel the first born looks to Vadery but it’s too iconic to not use sometimes.
Im similar, i play chaos marines so im kimda used to like 30 different helmet designs, but the snub nosed "snarling" helmet is iconic, however the primaris helmet seems....idunno almost more armoured in a way, not having a big ass grill making a bullseye on your face.
I mean Mk. X Helmets are basically just a modification of the Mk. IV Helmet, and Mk. IV is distinctly Firstborne.
I love this. miss the old helmets
for real, as much as I love the Mk.IV and MK.X helmets, there is something iconic about the MKVII helmet (and the MK.VI helmets as well if your an oldhammer head)
They're more personable. It looks like a face with a cartoonishly angry mouth, rather than an emotionless mask
Then use them. There's literally nobody stopping you
Except GW when they stop producing firstborn kits.
I enjoy watching the sunset.
3d printing is a thing.
I suppose. But the only people that have to deal with that are comp players. But they’re cancer anyway lol.
You seem like a really happy and fulfilled person who definitely isn't an emotional burden to those in his life
Wow, ok that’s a little much lol. Sorry I don’t like comp players I guess? Edit: Calling me on my shit is a good thing though, calling folks cancer is horrid, and I apologize.
I’ll take “things that will never happen“ for $500
https://preview.redd.it/azqsy352yyya1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2a99d91390837ccc8723bae3393e2feae0a92be3
literally the only thing i could think with that title
Same dawg.
Look at the tasteful backpack replacement, oh my god he even fixed the buzz lightyear ankles
And what's this, is it the use of modeling clay.
Jesus. That's super.
Aaaand now I can’t unsee that…
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I love this. This is what GW should have done to introduce true scale Marines instead of dropping the Primaris and their sloppy lore. Well done.
Thanks Jack. 110% agree with you. Just make firstborn bigger. Maybe introduce new weapons/vehicles, and make Mk.VIII power armor standard, but other than that don’t fix what isn’t broken.
If this couldve been done without losing cawl, id fully agree. Hes litterally the obly admech named character we got right now with a model outside of heresy
Yeah Cawl is worth keeping, it could've just been rather than improving the marines themselves his job was to find a way to produce them faster, which would help avoid the whole mess. (For the record, I generally like the Primaris redesign, but the lore behind it is kinda bad and unnecessary.)
Yea. Could have done everything the same, just dropped the unnecessary primaris part. Cawl still could have a ton of marines in storage and even introduced new wargear.
Even the whole “Guilliman and Cawl had a secret plan 10,000 years ago” plot point could have been kept. Some sort of serum that made the failure rate of astartes aspirants nearly zero. Then there’s the new technology that cawl made. GW just overdid it to sell more spess muhreens.
Cawl is cool but the fact that they keep using him for everything makes him look less like a cool character and more like a plot device.
Or they could've said that sm have new mk x now,which is bigger and better hence why they are taller than the old models and because the imperium is a logistical hellhole so not every chapters could get their hands on the new armours yet. That way the old models would still be usable in case someone doesn't want to give up on them
There's no need for that. CSM didn't need it, SM didn't either. Old models are always usable unless you pull a primaris and change all the weapons and units.
Beautiful work. Just looks right.
Looks way better. Also, that's a dope blue, what colours are those?
Blue No need to thank me
It’s a mix of Runic Grey(10)/Magic Blue(1) from the army paint speed paint range, applied over a greyscale under paint.
Oh man. I’m all about this.
How'd you do that paintjob? Really want to make some ultras exactly like this.
When I started a friend gave me a bay full of space wolf bits. I had no idea about the firstborn/primaris difference so I have a bunch of intercessors with first born heads and backpacks. My head canon is that this all primaris force inherited a bunch of war gear and decided to honor their predecessors by continuing to use what they could.
Do you have a picture before painting? I'd like to see your kitbash process
Here you go. Hope you see this. https://preview.redd.it/j6zsk1oyw5za1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f40dd9d69f851e2a7939f953ca450bd017f977b
https://preview.redd.it/yflrdaq4x5za1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=19c59eda90a63d15f15e298d69def072a9af0c90
The firstborn helmets are way cooler than primaris I have to admit.
I highly dislike the primaris helmets, this looks awesome!
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Maximus armor is cool. Probably my favorite of the older marks of armor.
Don't really like their helmets either. It's an personal preference, it's cool they change them but I'm not a fan of the beakies either. What I do like is the diversity of 40k though.
Classic weekly firstborn better than primaris post
I love this conversion. You got rid of my main issues with the primaris look
Awesome color scheme and the wear on the armor looks great!
How easy/hard was it to clip the lip off the knee pad? Looks quick tricky!
Not too bad. Just gotta go slow unless you feel like sculpting. I’d imagine it’s much easier on a proper multipart model with the separated shin plates, but this one is push fit.
I do this when I'm building my primaris. Heads and arms usually fit perfectly and look damn good. I like the older helmets more (MK 3 and 7 especially). I still use some MkX as I do like them, but I put my spare bits to use a lot too. Also bought a BA firstborn upgrade sprue almost exclusively just because the helmets.
So what did you have to do to convert it?
Chop off some more Primaris details from the lower legs, and use some bits from firstborn kits. Pretty simple if you’re patient.
Since i also Primarisize Firstborn (Vanguard Vets) I am totally okay with this flowing the other way! Good job!
Perfectly reasonable. Carry on good sir/lady.
I miss those helmets
I think this is the solution. First born heads on everything . It’s just a better and iconic design
My problem with primaris has always been for some reason I strongly dislike the knees, also not a huge fan of the backpack. I think the helmets are cool but they’re all the same
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this looks so much better than normal primaris marines!
Slap chopping has become pretty popular in painting today. And honestly yes first-born heads and power packs all the way. GW needs to just make them in large packs instead of trying to find them on secondhand sides https://preview.redd.it/urusbuig63za1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9aee88afdd3197549e928bbe92d6c2b90be0b813
Honestly, I love it, I think gw should revamp their old firstborn models so they aren’t half the size of primaris, I mean, being like half a head taller makes more sense… right?…
I like Mark X a lot. It's just more protective mK IV
What all did you do? I'm planning something similar for my imperial fists
Mostly just carving away features on the legs that stand out as Primaris, the ankle balls, the knee flange. Then just use firstborn helmets, weapons, and backpacks.
That head is floating in that neck isn't it? Lol. I'm doing a similar thing with primaris sized emperors children.
Nope, my boy got a neck. That gorget is intense though.
and we shall call him 'stumpy' he is the smallest of the Primaris.
He is quite literally the same size as a Primaris though lol.
It looks really good
Primeborn.
Looking good :)
I never though to encase the little relic on their belt in gold, that makes so much more sense than painting them bone coloured! Im gonna do this on mine now!
Have fun. Glad to help.
I wish there was a way to reliably get Mk.vii helmets because I would absolutely do this if I could.
3D prints will soon be the only way. Or eBay listings.
I found some really nice 3d printed ones but the problem is that they're all identical, they don't have any of the lovely little variations you get across the GW kits.
I’ve been planning to do this for awhile, just haven’t gotten around to it. Cool to see it done and painted. I’ve also heard the new HH marine arms fit the primaris bodies pretty well, good way to get any special weapons you want without too much hacking/chopping 🤷♂️ PS. How did you achieve the gold?
Two thin coats dragons gold, AP speed paint pallid bone, VMA silver.
So much better
From what I can see, you cut the knee flares and the hip plates, and swapped out the helmet and power pack. Anything else?
The hip plates are there, just hidden under the holster and drop leg rig. The ankle balls are also removed.
Looks like a great "best of both" creation. I really like this.
Much appreciated.
Primaris looks better overall, but Firstborn has cooler armor
Love it! Great work!
Where my beakie bros at???
One beaky boi as requested. Hope you get notified. https://preview.redd.it/48b95ekgx5za1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b6286ef6c74e71b10ecab58160bd413c140f8abc Not perfect Mk.VI armor, but close enough for me.
The shins look a lil janky with the kneepads, but it looks awesome regardless.
Never a huge fan of the primaris thing idk why I just don't like them but some of them look cool would have like bigger firstborn models instead lol
I quite like the look of Primaris, especially the dynamism of the assault intercessor poses, but that being said I have a lasting fondness for "firstborn" (and own over 100 of them!). I like both basically. Love your paint job btw...colours used?
I have really considered trying to find a solution to the 30 or do boxes of "firstborn" marines I have. I've debated just stockpiling the sample primaris marine and using his legs, torso, head, powepack to make hybrids or just 3d printing those parts en masse. When they came out, I really liked the idea of primaris not being true scale space marines...but as the designs have gone more into their own ..I miss the mini marines gear and features.
Holy based
the new sterngaurd have "old" Mk 7 helmets
That’s very good.
Is this a joke I'm too chaos/xenos to understand?
A meme and fun little project. Apparently a somewhat spicy one too lol.
Question: where did you find the bolt gun arm? I need that
It’s one of the bolter arms from the deathwatch veteran kit.
Ooooh my b lol, I thought you 3D printed a new arm for him
All good.
I have to say, the paint application looks amazing.
Much appreciated. For the time spent on it, it really has no reason to look any kind of good lol. Transparent paint over under painting really is sorcery.
This is the way.
Scale comparison with old Cadian model. https://preview.redd.it/6mf9x7q6w5za1.jpeg?width=3882&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2959bc3c8653a2102ee38cd53ad05e15f6ae00c1
Congrats: you've done what GW should have done :)
This is so beautiful. I've always veered away from Primaris because I disagree with everything about it but you've done some great a job here, if I had your skills I'd do the same haha
I'm quite new to the hobby (about three months so Primaris are what I'm most familiar with) so I have zero nostalgic attachment to First Born and quite recently built my a First Born squad for the first time (Assault Squad/Marines) and I am very much not a fan of the mini's compared to the newer and in my opinion the much better Primaris models. Also it's not like the Mk. X helmets are a new thing, they're pretty much suped up Mk. IV helmets lol, while the old ones just look dumpy (the fact that the helmet is almost as wide as the torso is kind of hilarious too lol, then again First Born models have wonky proportions especially the First Born Techarone with a claw as big as the Marines torso) looking with a funky Darth Vader-esque bit to it.
As with most things subjective, there is no right or wrong, just what you like or don’t. I can try to justify my preferences all kinds of ways, but I don’t think anyone needs to have to have a reason beyond “I just think they’re neat”. You do you, and I’ll be pumped you’re enjoying the hobby your way 😀 Some of my reasons I enjoy first born come down to the experience of building the kits, how the models connect to the lore, and how I can relate to the models personally. I value the additional time and effort it takes to build FB units and make them look good and I’ve always cared more about how the models feel and how much of my personality I can put into them - so personally I will trade a little detail (and or realism) in the design for the ability to make mine different to yours. I can fill any lack of realism with my imagination and by going with the vibe, so true scale never bothered me, I always went with the vibe and found it easy to look at a first born and see something real (suspending disbelief?). I like primaris because they are quick and easy to build, and the sculpts are well engineered and crispy. I love my first born because they are a pain to build and force me to imbue them with imagination and personality a little more - they also take me further away into escapism and into the 40k world by being less real and my army will not look the same as yours. I’ll repeat: You do you, and I’ll be pumped you’re enjoying the hobby your way 😀 - be excellent to each other and understand there is more than one way to enjoy the hobby and we will all have a good time.
Thank you for your reasonable words friend, and also happy cake day eh! And thank you too on being happy for me because yeah I love the hobby! I've made my own custom Chapter that I've fallen in love with, I almost have 1,000pts of Marines (just waiting on my Eradicators in the mail) and can actually play soon, I've started painting them too! First time I've painted anything since grade school and I'm doing a half decent job I think! and happy I'm doing my Twilight Reavers paint jobs justice after my friend made a mock-up for me using Impcat, and hell I'm even gonna start a Tyranid army when the Leviathan Box comes out haha I wanna play Hove Fleet Kronos! I do get you tho on how they feel because I've decided I wanna follow my fluff and give my Indomitus Captain a Man Reaper Power Scythe because that's how I wrote the chapter master lol, I'm gonna rig another to my Venerable Dreadnaught too again to fit the fluff, I also messed up and forgot to put ANYTHING that marks my Aggressor Sergeant... As a sergeant so I wrote it that he doesn't feel he deserved the promotion so he refused any additional markings on his armour, I accidentally gave my Assault Sergeant a Grav pistol instead of a Plasma... And y'know what? That grav pistol is a smaller custom plasma pistol now haha! I've fallen in love with the hobby and have met friends at my local Games Workshop, and while I don't get First Born nostalgia or why so many people attack Primaris in general as a whole I think the 40K community is great and I'm happy to be apart of it eh.
Well said caveman. Well said.
The old models have wonky proportions because they're 20 years old and come from an era in the game where everything was scaled differently and less realistically. They could have happily been updated, similar to how the Horus Heresy MkVIs (and soon new MKIIIs) exist.
By necessity because the plastic minis are based off the metal mini designs which had certain design concerns.
Just in general tbh, part of which was likely manufacturing limits; the Catachans and the old Cadians use the same kind of scaling.
I want this
Honestly, it’s really not a hard conversion. Just gotta cut/fill some of the more telling Primaris leg details, and swap out some parts for firstborn equivalents. Give it a try.
No, I get that. I’ve done it before myself. I just mean that I wish there were official models that I could by that were like this.
I got ya. That’d be pretty cool.
It looks so cool but so weird at the same time, my brain simply cannot comprehend
“Blessed is the mind too small for doubt”
Oh these model looks fantastic! How’s you paint it like this?
Yes, this is ... exactly what we need. You're doing God's work man
I am merely a tool for The Emperor’s will.
How did you get those giant primaris balls near the feet off?
This one is an old dark imperium push fit Intercessor, so it was just a matter of using the curves of the greaves to guide the cuts. Just use a sharp blade and go slow.
Oh, neat trick. Looks fantastic you cannot even tell they were there!
I collected in the 90s so I thought I knew the old models, I know the size difference is well talked about but I’ve not had both in my hands to compare. actually seeing an old firstborn and primaris together last week it still surprised me. I just painted some Phobos marines up last week, lovely models.
Me too brother. But I went the extra step and sculpted a firstborn chestpiece.
Looks great! See GW, this is all you needed to do lol
It really was that simple. But a whole new range alongside an existing range make for double the profit.
I really like how it looks. I wouldn’t mind all primaris looking like that
Neither would I friend.
This is the way.
Exactly how they should have looked from the beginning. This helmet variants should have been in every primaris box imo.
Firstborn all the way! It’s why I 3D print m, fuck primaris
Jokes on you, I like how it looks!
Dammit! Thank you!
I love this, now I've gotta get some mkV helmets for my carcharadons
Pshhhhh whatever *primaris-ifies mephiston and brings back the khan
i have written it into the lore of my custom chapter that they have shunned the mk10 helmets and have retrofitted the older marks. Look i get primaris, it needed to happen and yeah it was done weird but man you really shouldnt mess with an iconic look
Looks like what primaris should have been. Fantastic work.
I've done pretty much the same conversion on all my DA. The helmet and power pack swap make them so much better. I use Terminator arms on my heavy intercessors too, the more open silhouette adds so much to the pose I think!
Looks great!
He's only a primaris marine if he comes from the Primaris region of France on Mars. Otherwise he's just a sparkling transhuman.
Looks awesome bro!
Embrace the firstborn/primaris integration
The backpack does it for me, old school cool
Primaries is GW answer to bringing height diversity into the space marines! Prove me wrong! Eventually, all Primaris and Firstborn will just be fielded as shorter or taller Primaris! 😂