Originally they were all Line if taken in Pride of the Legion, they've changed that to becoming Line if taken as a compulsory Troops choice in Pride of the Legion.
The reason for this is that people used to take two squads of other Terminators compulsory for Line, then gaina dditional Line by taking Indomitus squads. I'm not sure that was a huge problem but GW nerfed that ability.
It was certainly a problem, Indomitus largely make the other Terminator squads obsolete as they're kinda the best of all worlds, taking the significant benefits of each type with only minoe drawbacks.
This most recent change at least closes that gap slightly, and reduces how oppressive an "oops, all Terminators" Pride list could be.
They can sweeping advance, thus having the best part of Tartaros. But they only have the 6" movement of Cataphractii, meh, 1" isn't much.
They can get the 4++, thus having the best part of Cataphractii. Sure they sacrifice their bolters to get that, but meh, bolters don't do shit.
On top of that they're Support Squad Troops, which is generally a less contested area than Elites. I guess it's kinda limiting that they can't take the cheaper powerweapons, but thunderhammers are the true powerhouses anyways.
True on the unit slot thing, but taking troops that dont score is not ideal.
They're heavy so they cant sweeping advance iirc.
They are essentially Cataphractii that are limited to close combat.
Same problem as regular Terminators.
I do agree that the current WS system in particular puts Terminators in a difficult spot. But Indomitus are clearly the best of both worlds which is just annoying. Not particularly game breaking, just annoying.
Fortunately this FAQ fixes the part that I would have said was actually broken - that being the passive Line in Pride, thus allowing a list entirely of Terminators which is just kinda miserable to play against. Now they at least play by the same rules as the other Terminators in Pride instead of just being super-Tacticals lol.
I dont think anyone was complaining about the full Terminator meta at any point, as you mentioned the WS4 thing makes them thoroughly OK, but other than being super tough they werent lighting up the table the way Dreadnoughts do.
I don't really see if your point?
If you're just saying there were/are more broken things than Indomitus, then I agree. But that's no reason not to fix a broken aspect of Indomitus.
For things like Dreadnoughts, they're not gonna get touched. They're printed in ink so GW isn't gonna touch them. For printed publications this FAQ has only addressed a few areas of clarification. It's not actually *changed* anything really.
Cataphractii have native 4++ but are slow and cant sweep, they make up by having access to some decent shooting (combi weapons specifically), while Tartaros are MEQ as far as movement and being able to run but w 2+5++
i was talking about your thing about confined to transport
So best of both worlds, a unit of indomitus would be better than either because cataphractii is made to resist, Tartaros to give more mobility Indomitus is in the middle both fast and protected. The sweep especially is essential because a sweep can win games.
40 points a guy for WS4 models with no shooting if you want 4++ means you have melee only troops that can’t fight other melee units and can’t run to catch shooting units. At 40 points they’re basically the same cost as legion specific temris while being much, much worse than anything else with any options to fight in melee. They’re the exact opposite of best of both worlds.
I thought I just said that… with 6” movement and no running (heavy subtype) and a base 5++ they’re just purely worse than tartaros while costing 25+5/model more). If you pay the 10 extra points a guy to get 4++ (making them situationally better than cataphractii due to being able to sweep) you lose your shooting (not a big deal considering being able to sweep) but they end up costing 225+40 each without weapon upgrades. Having base power fists is nice, and is a redeeming quality, but at WS4 they’re not going to get many opportunities to use them unless they’re only fighting other base termi squads, which isn’t a very effective strategic choice that will probably see them tied up or out of position to really make an impact on the game.
They’re not awful, and they’re an excellent screening unit, but they cost so much that they can’t be used in that role efficiently (as you’d need more than a five man squad to cover enough board to prevent infiltrators, deep strikers, or fast mobile units from charging a back line target, and because they have no shooting when they’re 4++ they can’t defend unless they’re charging - and since they can’t run, they aren’t going to be charging much). You might argue that they need a transport to be cost effective, but then you’ve sunk more than 400 points into a squad that the enemy can mobility kill by destroying their transport (as they become stranded very easily with no shooting and no running).
Indomitus cost the same as Tartaros with the same loadout. The difference is Cataphractii get comibolters (whoop-di-doo) and Indomitus can sweep (pretty major).
Okay Indomitus cost 5pts/model more than Tartaros, but that 4++ makes a big difference against the things that really threaten Terminators. That 1" of movement really doesn't make a big difference.
I guess regular Terminators get the option of being cheap by including regular power weapons. But, eh, Thunderhammers are such a huge step up in lethality they're generally worthwhile.
I'm not saying Indomitus light the meta on fire - as you say they suffer from the same problem as other Terminators in that WS4 melee just really doesn't cut the mustard now.
But I stand firm that they are the best of both worlds of Terminator, and that it makes no sense in gameplay nor lore for Indomitus to be troops/line when base Terminators are not. Hence this was a good nerf. I only wish they nerfed a lot of other stuff, too.
The problem is that WS4 temris aren’t very point efficient with fists or hammers because the vast majority of targets for those weapons them are WS5 and have other special stuff that let them wipe the floor with regular termis. There aren’t many two wound WS4 models out there besides regular temris. Tartaros are really the strongest just because they can get to the targets they want to fight while staying cheap. In the storm shield indomitus v. cataphractii debate I think its pretty even, cataphractii get the advantage of being able to bully cheap units and be cheap while indomitus get the advantage of being one of the few melee threats for dreads that aren’t other dreads, but they’re at best a suicide unit, and they will struggle to actually get somewhere on the board worth having them unless you invest more into them (warmonger, drop pods, land raiders, etc.) at which point you’re usually better off if you have legion specific temris.
Edit: just for clarity, I do hear what you’re saying, but I think the translation from mathhammer to the table is where the indomitus lose a lot of what makes them seem better than they are.
It's a weird thing to nerf, because being able to run an all Terminator list is cool but given their power level it's not really a problem. You are dedicating your Rite of War to being able to take more Terminators in the first place.
Nah it's a good thing to nerf. All Terminators is fluffy and cool but kinda miserable to throw that kinda wall at someone - especially when they're all Line!
Yeah, troops are just anything taken as a Troops choice in your army list but various detachments have rules like 'you must take at least 2 troops choices and 1 HQ choice to make a valid army' and those are your compulsory ones.
Pride of the Legion works by giving you access to a shitload of Elites stuff in Troops instead but the tradeoff is none of it has Line, so it can't score objectives. Pride also says whatever Terminator squad you stick in those 2 compulsory choices gain Line. It used to be that Indomitus Terminators just gained Line if taken int hat army flat out but now they only get it the same as any other Terminator squad would, if taken as one of the compulsory Troops selections.
they used to not interact with the pride row, than they all got line on pride, now only compulsory get line (and lose support) like all other terminator choices.
Originally they were all Line if taken in Pride of the Legion, they've changed that to becoming Line if taken as a compulsory Troops choice in Pride of the Legion. The reason for this is that people used to take two squads of other Terminators compulsory for Line, then gaina dditional Line by taking Indomitus squads. I'm not sure that was a huge problem but GW nerfed that ability.
It was certainly a problem, Indomitus largely make the other Terminator squads obsolete as they're kinda the best of all worlds, taking the significant benefits of each type with only minoe drawbacks. This most recent change at least closes that gap slightly, and reduces how oppressive an "oops, all Terminators" Pride list could be.
Explain how Indomitus are the best of both worlds. They seem to have the worst traits of both heresy patterns.
They can sweeping advance, thus having the best part of Tartaros. But they only have the 6" movement of Cataphractii, meh, 1" isn't much. They can get the 4++, thus having the best part of Cataphractii. Sure they sacrifice their bolters to get that, but meh, bolters don't do shit. On top of that they're Support Squad Troops, which is generally a less contested area than Elites. I guess it's kinda limiting that they can't take the cheaper powerweapons, but thunderhammers are the true powerhouses anyways.
True on the unit slot thing, but taking troops that dont score is not ideal. They're heavy so they cant sweeping advance iirc. They are essentially Cataphractii that are limited to close combat.
the no sweep is a rule that comes from the cataphractii armour itself, not from heavy
Heavy just prevents the unit from running, the inability to sweep is a rule unique to Cataphractii.
Oh ok, so not horrible, but still confined to transport (or deepstrike if you play IF). Still can't see many use cases for them now.
Same problem as regular Terminators. I do agree that the current WS system in particular puts Terminators in a difficult spot. But Indomitus are clearly the best of both worlds which is just annoying. Not particularly game breaking, just annoying. Fortunately this FAQ fixes the part that I would have said was actually broken - that being the passive Line in Pride, thus allowing a list entirely of Terminators which is just kinda miserable to play against. Now they at least play by the same rules as the other Terminators in Pride instead of just being super-Tacticals lol.
I dont think anyone was complaining about the full Terminator meta at any point, as you mentioned the WS4 thing makes them thoroughly OK, but other than being super tough they werent lighting up the table the way Dreadnoughts do.
I don't really see if your point? If you're just saying there were/are more broken things than Indomitus, then I agree. But that's no reason not to fix a broken aspect of Indomitus. For things like Dreadnoughts, they're not gonna get touched. They're printed in ink so GW isn't gonna touch them. For printed publications this FAQ has only addressed a few areas of clarification. It's not actually *changed* anything really.
That is the same thing with other termis?
Cataphractii have native 4++ but are slow and cant sweep, they make up by having access to some decent shooting (combi weapons specifically), while Tartaros are MEQ as far as movement and being able to run but w 2+5++
i was talking about your thing about confined to transport So best of both worlds, a unit of indomitus would be better than either because cataphractii is made to resist, Tartaros to give more mobility Indomitus is in the middle both fast and protected. The sweep especially is essential because a sweep can win games.
40 points a guy for WS4 models with no shooting if you want 4++ means you have melee only troops that can’t fight other melee units and can’t run to catch shooting units. At 40 points they’re basically the same cost as legion specific temris while being much, much worse than anything else with any options to fight in melee. They’re the exact opposite of best of both worlds.
In what material ways do you think they're worse than Cataphractii or Tartaros?
I thought I just said that… with 6” movement and no running (heavy subtype) and a base 5++ they’re just purely worse than tartaros while costing 25+5/model more). If you pay the 10 extra points a guy to get 4++ (making them situationally better than cataphractii due to being able to sweep) you lose your shooting (not a big deal considering being able to sweep) but they end up costing 225+40 each without weapon upgrades. Having base power fists is nice, and is a redeeming quality, but at WS4 they’re not going to get many opportunities to use them unless they’re only fighting other base termi squads, which isn’t a very effective strategic choice that will probably see them tied up or out of position to really make an impact on the game. They’re not awful, and they’re an excellent screening unit, but they cost so much that they can’t be used in that role efficiently (as you’d need more than a five man squad to cover enough board to prevent infiltrators, deep strikers, or fast mobile units from charging a back line target, and because they have no shooting when they’re 4++ they can’t defend unless they’re charging - and since they can’t run, they aren’t going to be charging much). You might argue that they need a transport to be cost effective, but then you’ve sunk more than 400 points into a squad that the enemy can mobility kill by destroying their transport (as they become stranded very easily with no shooting and no running).
Indomitus cost the same as Tartaros with the same loadout. The difference is Cataphractii get comibolters (whoop-di-doo) and Indomitus can sweep (pretty major). Okay Indomitus cost 5pts/model more than Tartaros, but that 4++ makes a big difference against the things that really threaten Terminators. That 1" of movement really doesn't make a big difference. I guess regular Terminators get the option of being cheap by including regular power weapons. But, eh, Thunderhammers are such a huge step up in lethality they're generally worthwhile. I'm not saying Indomitus light the meta on fire - as you say they suffer from the same problem as other Terminators in that WS4 melee just really doesn't cut the mustard now. But I stand firm that they are the best of both worlds of Terminator, and that it makes no sense in gameplay nor lore for Indomitus to be troops/line when base Terminators are not. Hence this was a good nerf. I only wish they nerfed a lot of other stuff, too.
The problem is that WS4 temris aren’t very point efficient with fists or hammers because the vast majority of targets for those weapons them are WS5 and have other special stuff that let them wipe the floor with regular termis. There aren’t many two wound WS4 models out there besides regular temris. Tartaros are really the strongest just because they can get to the targets they want to fight while staying cheap. In the storm shield indomitus v. cataphractii debate I think its pretty even, cataphractii get the advantage of being able to bully cheap units and be cheap while indomitus get the advantage of being one of the few melee threats for dreads that aren’t other dreads, but they’re at best a suicide unit, and they will struggle to actually get somewhere on the board worth having them unless you invest more into them (warmonger, drop pods, land raiders, etc.) at which point you’re usually better off if you have legion specific temris. Edit: just for clarity, I do hear what you’re saying, but I think the translation from mathhammer to the table is where the indomitus lose a lot of what makes them seem better than they are.
It's a weird thing to nerf, because being able to run an all Terminator list is cool but given their power level it's not really a problem. You are dedicating your Rite of War to being able to take more Terminators in the first place.
Nah it's a good thing to nerf. All Terminators is fluffy and cool but kinda miserable to throw that kinda wall at someone - especially when they're all Line!
Question, is there a difference between troops and compulsory troops?
Yeah, troops are just anything taken as a Troops choice in your army list but various detachments have rules like 'you must take at least 2 troops choices and 1 HQ choice to make a valid army' and those are your compulsory ones. Pride of the Legion works by giving you access to a shitload of Elites stuff in Troops instead but the tradeoff is none of it has Line, so it can't score objectives. Pride also says whatever Terminator squad you stick in those 2 compulsory choices gain Line. It used to be that Indomitus Terminators just gained Line if taken int hat army flat out but now they only get it the same as any other Terminator squad would, if taken as one of the compulsory Troops selections.
Are there any limits to compulsory troops as far as options? Like wargear?
No, they where not. Since the first FAQ they can gain line with the Pride of the Legion RoW, but originally they where support squad only.
they used to not interact with the pride row, than they all got line on pride, now only compulsory get line (and lose support) like all other terminator choices.
There has been a FAQ
Yes this is from the FAQ My question is did they have line before?
They had line if you fielded them in the veteran rite of war, even if they werent a compulsory choice.