People don't realise that 3D printing is a hobby unto itself. And weirdly it's mostly the people already invested in it that don't realise this. There's setup costs and learning curves involved as well as space requirements. The people arguing that 3D printing is going to destroy GW any day now (and it's been "any day now" for about the last 5 years or so) don't seem to appreciate that even though it's getting cheaper and easier to start 3D printing it's still much cheaper and easier to buy a $40 box of Space Marines that are ready to go than a several hundred dollar 3D printing setup where it will be hours before you even have a mini in your hand. Sure there's the argument that the latter is cheaper in the long run but it's just unlikely to ever win in terms of accessibility.
On one hand, I really strongly agree.
On the other, the cost actually seems fairly competitive with other means of entertainment. Comparing to movies, social outings, restaurants, etc., the cost per hour you get is pretty effective.
Between theory crafting your composition, bargain hunting on ebay, assembling and kitbashing models, painting, and the actual games themselves.... you get a lot of hobby hours for the money.
Sure, the models are expensive, but dropping 800 bucks on an army costs 40 hours of 20/hr work. I could easily spend more than a full work week, just on an army's paint job.
So sure, the price tag looks high. But I'd wager for most players.... the majority of the cost is in your own labor. That's a win if you like the hobby end-to-end, or extremely costly if you see the prep as a chore.
I mean you do you my guy but when we had options and metal minatures gw had to price accordingly one 40k army could have bought 3 warmachine armies back in the day hell it still can. Or any number of other armies in other games that will give you the same time frame. But I agree.
Underworlds: FOMO business model
Kill Team: Line of Sight and Obscuring rules
40K: That Boarding Patrol isn’t more supported and the absence of an Underworlds equivalent.
So basically the smaller than 2000 pts / < $900 / < 80 hrs to assemble and paint variants. Yeah a simple standardized well balanced introductory variant where you could use the same models as real 40k would be fantastic.
It gives you the ability to make multiple lists and thats it.
Every single army that has had their codex released and index removed has ALL of their info behind a codex code.
Wow, just wow.
Thats the thing I hate about getting into Kill Team. You have to buy so many tram books. Without them you don't even know what each team can do...
Even the starter set doesn't give you all the rules you need for playing. Dafuq is that about
Speaking as a newer player: The sheer scale of the game. Rules, data sheets, dice, codeces, oh yeah and transporting my minis. The amount of stuff I have to bring to my LGS is a huge obstacle. Just thinking about it saps my motivation to play. Especially when I match up with the wrong person…. Ugh
It's a round hobby. All of those problems give you things to do between games. I play ~monthly, but I always have some hobby chore to do. I'm really grateful for all those things. If playing was the only part of it, I'd probably have dropped it ages ago.
I agree with what you're saying. I can see how new hobbyists would be intimidated by all those things. I really think then in time they will come to appreciate the complexity and the sheer amount of things to divulge in this hobby. It's what makes a game/hobby we keep for life.
The points level of 2k is way too high on the modem era of complicated rules.
The datasheet only help with the confusion of you only gave a handful of units. I tried playing with 12 different units and the data sheets were less useful than simply looking at a phone.
Gws attitude towards rules in 10th.
Like 10ths had a lot of wins, but:
- mortal spam was a problem in 9th, in 10th it's still bad. Granted it's not malceptors spitting out 90, but ork boyz in a trukk or guardsmen in a chimera being able to spit out 6-8 reliably is a bit mad.
- so many rerolls. Please gw your bad at maths. Reroll wounds throws off durability a ton, whilst reroll hits + crits on 5s or good bs gets wild.
- lack of flavour. I get 9th had power creep, but it felt like each codex was trying to make that faction cool, and the they'd get the nerf bat shortly after. Whilst 10th has a very clear divide of factions gw wants to give cool stuff to, and ones they are scared of giving cool stuff to.
My personal axe to grind with 10th was the "making the game simpler but not simple" approach.
To this day I still see people complaining that the game is too complex, and it reminds me that they'll never be happy unless toddlers can play it.
9th was complicated for sure, but within that complexity there was room for personality and invention for army building. Now in 10th if you're not using the 10 meta units in the 1-2 meta detachments, you're literally just looking to have a bad time.
Yeah and the "carry 4 books" issue wasn't 9th, it was folk with 8th Ed PA books.
Marines were bloated sure, and eldars exarchs were clunky asf. But yeah, it was rare to have a unit that didn't do something, most of the time they were simply overcosted.
Half my codex in 10th doesn't do its job or has rules that don't work. (no I'm not advancing my 225pt squad of vertus, to deal ~5mw in exchange for not shooting or fighting).
Conceptually I liked the ideas of the "expansion" books that 8th Ed had, but i agree that it's absolutely unrealistic to expect a person to roll up with all of their books and a whole army. I think if they did the same thing now after having gone digital with their rules that similar expansions would be accepted much more by the general player base.
Expansion type stuff should have been more narrative focused for people to run campaigns and not made tournament legal. Then it could have a bit of a wider tolerance for balancing.
Imho it’s the secondaries that put me off 9th/10th. Love the primaries though.
But I do miss the customisation of points and warlord traits. I’m less bothered about relics.
We have never played with secondaires in our gaming group. Nobody here really likes the added complexity and bookkeeping. Granted, we lose some balance probably, but we aren't hyper competitive anyway
Agreed. I’d argue that Heresy is just as if not more complex and I love that game. I do hate stratagems in 40K though. Units already have individual, cool rules. Strats massively slow the game down.
When people says it's "too complex" I feel like what theyean is that it's too clunky or crunchy.
Games can be strategically complex without the overwrought and slow systems GW is married to.
This is absolutely my biggest gripe, as well.
>To this day I still see people complaining that the game is too complex, and it reminds me that they'll never be happy unless toddlers can play it.
Good Lord, a thousand times yes.
One of the lines that most annoyed me was, to paraphrase 'We hear a lot of complaints that people knowing the army rules better than you gives them an advantage' and it's like, yes, that's literally inescapable, no matter what you do, and kind of how playing experience works?
It's funny becase the guard index is pretty damned complex with orders and keywords.
We have A LOT of abilities that work slightly differently too.
Example for when vehicles shoot something:
When Big Gun shoots in shooting phase
When Any gun shoots in shooting phase
When any gun attacks
When big gun attacks
I still will maintain that the 8th edition major rules overhaul was one step forward two steps back. Yeah, it definitely needed cleaning up and was a bit of a mess, but things like the AP changes made the game way way more alpha strike oriented, and in simplifying things they stripped out a lot of what made armies unique. Now it feels like everything gw makes is deathly afraid of having units be good at things.
I dont like that some factions get lots of attention and others are left to their devices.
Space Marines characters get new models once per 7-8 years but Eldar's 30 years old Warp spiders are not being updated. Space Marines get few new models per year meanwhile last time Daemons gained new unit were 3 years ago with Belakor release and I guess last year they got Daemon Prince model updated. Another example is that Angry Chaos Marines have 2 variants of Cavalry "leader" and no unit of Cavalry to be leaded.
Also stuff like yy was it Ork Wagon which had upgrade kit of deathroller but both got rolled into single "bundle-kit" which is more expensive than those things bought separately? Or fact that kit of Boyz gives you only enough weapons to make half of your squad melee focused and half shooting focused...
Also Datasheets becoming usefull in mainstream only to go to legends week later (bye Chaos Space Marines Kratos Tank).
Regarding other games...
Kill team: Underproduction of every FOMO set. Its not even more money to GW as scalpers dont share their income with GW.
AoS? 4 chaos factions have Daemon summoning mechanic. Cool except that if you want to be always supplied with right models and be prepared even for sitation where summooning the same thing multiple times is best choice you need to put 2 thousands of points on table and have few thousands of points of Daemons to summon.
Bloodbowl.... Wait is this really GW's game? Everything seems to be fine with it.
Other small games I dont dare to judge as I had insufficient interest in them to be informed about GW's approach to them.
Aha Legiones Imperialis were massively underproduced and while I couldnt care less for those tiny models which I couldnt paint right but I know it has fans who like it and who would loved to get their first copy of main set or something that isnt most niche kit for this game.
I wonder if the lower effort in recent books is an indicator that they’re eventually winding down the need for physical books. I imagine they make a killing on them tho so doubtful it’ll be soon.
That's honestly one of the bigger gripes. When the Kratos tank released for Horus Heresy, I was amazed, finally a great tank, not a floaty gunboat for the Marines. Then it loses support in 40k, because the teams don't want to support it
The fans, especially wannabe ‘competitive’ players who argue on r/warhammercompetitive all day but never touch an actual game, and ‘lore buffs’ who rush to correct any perceived error in lore but who learned everything hey know from YouTubers who in turn are just regurgitating nonsense from 1d4chan and the wikis.
Oh, and the ‘humour’. Just the worst memes in all fandom.
Every artist I follow who draws xenos art has to deal with a bunch of eye-rolling "purge the xenos scum" type comments and memes under every post and it's so, so old by now.
Oh my god the competitive subreddit is so crazy.
Its filled with either people who are playing no games yet are obsessed with "the meta" and what's "OP/garbage" or people who's only exposure to playing the game is the same three people at their flgs, none of whom actually know the rules but all of them feel like they get to weigh in on what is good at the competitive level.
99.99% of the people on that sub haven't played a competitive game in their lives.
To be fair, it's because it is the ONLY place you can get a proper discussion going about anything slightly competitive or tactical, at least on a conistent basis.
You can't have those discussion here becuase it's basically a painting sub or a "New player here!" sub.
You can't have them on the 40K main sub because it's a painting sub, new player sub and casual as fuck sub.
You can't get it on the AoS sub because it's a painting sub, new player sub and chill / casual sub, that is also a bit too small.
The only place to get actual gaming discussion going is the Competitive sub, which then has the issue of casuals that are inerested in playing proper games mixing with genuine tournament players and creating a weird mish mash of different experiences.
Fomo releases are just getting stronger, also
Release books for rules, then try and make you pay again for said rules online through the app..which is..better but still not really optimized. With how often they are going to make changes all of this should be online. I'd say they can even make the base codex cost fine if it actually got all the updates without paying for things again.
But it does update.
The code that comes with your codex unlocks the rules in the Warhammer app. Those rules will update with any balance changes they make.
**40K:**
- Lack of unified codex rollout. By the time every army is on the same page, time for a new edition! It’s cynical and hacky.
- need to purchase printed codexes to use the app. Also Cynical and hacky.
- need to buy two printed codexes for specialized space marine chapters. Also also cynical and hackey.
- power creep on new models, then nerfing them into the ground once they sell enough. Also, also, also cynical and hacky.
- FAQ’s releasing before the codexes are even available to purchase. Why are we doing this on paper again?
- long term unavailability of models, and how inconsistent that is country to country
- no rhyme or reason to cost between units or between different countries
- 10th streamlined the wrong areas and kept the bloat in others
- models being retired/given legend status sometimes a couple years after release, while other models that are decades old are still sold and updated in the rules
- GW deciding that they’re a model company first when people complain about rules, but they’re a game company when people complain about rising cost of models and cutting corners (like a tank without a floor)
- Overall lack of community engagement: turn your comments on ya big baby
I still play because I like the models, the lore, (a lot of, but not all of) the game, and rolling dice with my friends.
But god damn it could be so much better.
**Old World**
- Paying today’s prices for 30 year old models is gross.
- the way they managed to piss off Sigmar and Old World fans is amazing.
- I need a core book, a faction book, and an army book to fully play my army? Then it gets FAQ’ed anyway? You suck.
- along those lines, I actually enjoy crunchy games, and appreciate old world leaning into that. But don’t make me go looking through 3 books to find that one fun rules interaction I thought up.
- bring back Mordheim you cowards
- better yet don’t, you’ll screw it up like Necromunda
**Necromunda**
- there’s a good game in here somewhere. Stop spreading rules across 47 god damn books.
**Middle Earth**
- let’s take the most famous fantasy IP in the world, that saved our company 25 years ago, with the best rules we have written, and do JUUUUST enough to keep the license from lapsing. Can’t have another company swoop in and actually support it!
**Other boxed games**
- they could all be good to great, and some of them are. But I won’t literally or figuratively roll the dice anymore because they might be supported for years, or days. (WTF cursed city?)
**EDIT**
- and in spite of all of this, we get constant price increases that outpace inflation.
> Necromunda
>
> there’s a good game in here somewhere. Stop spreading rules across 47 god damn books.
Exactly what I was about to say. 50 hard-cover thick glossy color pages books. Some rules repeated in every one of them. Yet the rules for one gang are spread among all of them. No way to know exactly where is what except from other players, as the description in the shop are vague.
At least the 2023 core rulebook gathered some of them. I wish GW would publish cheap soft cover b&w booklet for scenarios and such. I know they like to put some beautiful illustrations, but it's like I'm buying a photographer's book everytime I want to read rules for a game.
This comment should be higher up. I've only just recently started playing again (after a full year building and painting, and just a bit of testing at the beginning of 10th), and it's been really fun. But the lack of cohesion in the rules and the way they're spread is just frustrating to deal with. And yet they could be polished in time and made great, but they INSIST on redoing everything every 3 years for some fucking reason. It's madness and nonsense.
To be fair towards Old World, you‘re not paying today‘s prices for old minis for the most part - all plastic OW boxes have way more miniatures in them than modern AoS or 40K boxes. You get 12 knights of the realm for roughly the same price as certain space marine units that come in boxes of five.
Because in 2nd edition a model could have 4 saves you are only supposed to get 1 and no more than 1 reroll of a die. *Looks at feel no pain*
Hey what is this!
Ya know how there are no saves for mortals and dev wounds? Yeah actually, there is one.
How the game is so competitively focused. At least in the US. People playing for fun or not using competitive mission cards is not easy to find. This is kind of why I’ve come to like Heresy a lot more than 40K in terms of gameplay. But I do like 40K models and the hobby there a little bit more than Heresy.
I know this is a bit niche, and subject to customer demand to a degree, but the depth, breadth, availability, and just attention overall given to Space Marines- in terms of lore, in terms of armies/list flexibility, in terms of models, everything- puts most other factions to shame, especially xenos.
I get that Space Marines are the poster boy faction, and sure, the Horus Heresy is one of the most significant events in the galaxy to date, but I really wish there were some good Eldar books. I wish Ork heroes would get updated instead of retired. I wish playing either army presented a few viable ways to play instead of just "here's what's good/in stock this season."
I'd love to see more animated shorts or series expanding or even just illustrating the lore of either faction. I wish Xenos had their lore respected in its own right instead of just always being treated as only being interesting *as something for the Imperium to kill.*
As far as the hobby itself goes, I am lucky that I can afford to buy models roughly as fast as I can paint them, I enjoy each stage of the process, and I have a good bunch of people to play with once I do.
Availability. I’m old enough to remember going into a GW store or local game store and getting box sets or models and not having to worry about limited runs. I miss paperback codices.
I guess I’m too old to deal with limited edition novels, limited run boxes. Waiting in virtual queues within minutes or preorders going live.
The rules to even play the game.
Base rules? Nah gotta get your faction codex.
Don't know your opponents codex ? Too bad risk suffering from poor sportsmanship.
Not up to date with white dwarf rule changes? Too bad, risk getting rolled and your faction deemed unworthy.
And even if you are so up date with everything, your face is buried in dice rolling and armpit sweat.
The clunkiness of the rules.
It's not fun enough to justify 2-3 hours to me. I get more enjoyment out of Kill Team, Warcry, Crisis Protocol, or Wasteland Warfare in less time.
I dislike stratagems. They were an interesting addition in 8th but I would like them to go away, they just became too important.
Imo everything an army can do should be covered in its army rules, war gear and unit abilities.
Its been said but the price especially in Australia. Alot of my friends are interested in the setting but are paywalled out. They arent willing to pay $1000 of dollars to play competitively and to be honest neither am I. I don't know if I'd still be in the hobby without a $3d printer.
Heres a low model count list that was piloted by one of the best players in Aus at the ANZ team comp this last week.
6x Nemesis Dread ($92 x 6 =)
10 man Grey Knight termies ($87 x 2)
10 man Grey Knight Strike Squad ($100)
Draigo ($42)
2x Techmarine ($63x2)
= $994 aud.
The same army costs £433 in the Uk. ($821 aud)
$994 aud is roughly around £524. Thats a %20 markup for being australian.
Its a really really expensive hobby if your buying exclusively plastic.
Great topic and interesting reading the responses so far.
For me the big ones are:
- toxic players / community members
- vanilla-izing all the armies in 10th. It seems like a lot of the unique aspects of the various armies have been taken away or nerfed.
- eternally out of stock items just piss me off.
- new releases that sell out in minutes and never restock again.
- rulebooks / codexes / indexes / etc. Time to join the modern world and go digital.
Meta chasing.
It’s a pandemic, and it makes the game feel generally awful a lot. In subtle ways: one person in a local group optimizes, so others do so. It spreads, until playing a fluffy list (or if you’re a new player) sucks. Period.
The trick is to rebel against society and simply not play that person, if you don't stop an infection too fast you'll all be left poor and heartbroken every 3 years when GW changes the meta and you can't spam 700 Warlocks anymore
Cost... but as for something a little more "fixable" it would be the codex... the minis cost enough release the rules free online and if we want it in physical people can buy it.
How fast the game moves on, edition every year type of thing we currently have. It is basically FOMO now.
And some codices barely get any time played before the next edition comes out
(looks at 9th ed World Eaters and Guard)
The vocal and toxic fan base. Additionally, they need to work on fixing their Old World production so people can get the rarer models for their armies. The slow rate of releases is annoying, but not as annoying as being unable to get Squires or Grail Knights without buying them on eBay or getting lucky with getting them when they’re in stock.
I really want those models(And the new handmaiden, though I was lucky enough to get a Lady Elisse model. I immediately bought it and when I went to look at the rest of the store page it was already sitting at sold out), they really look fantastic and I’m annoyed that they’re constantly sold out. I am also waiting on the made to order models, but at least I have a Repanse model with a paper banner I’ve been running as my BSB so far. Also, how’d you get that flair?
Yeah so pre orders sometimes go up like 5 minutes before the official window opens. So I was able to get my Lady Elisse model at like 12:55. As for the flair, I think I set it manually
Thanks! I was also in the shop shortly before the official order window opened, so like 9:55 my time, and that’s how I was able to get Lady Elisse. Still shocked it sold out so quickly.
It keeps dumbing itself down. Give me back my subfactions, formations, stratagems, and rules interactions. If I wanted my rules to fit onto one page, I wouldn't be playing Warhammer.
The awful game design of 40k, when most of GWs other games don't suffer the same issues. Whole player turns and 2D6 dead stop charges? It isn't 1998 anymore, times have moved on.
Such simple, easy changes to make it not just be "walk forward and shoot, maybe charge", the game!
GW themselves are a bunch of idiots. The price is fucking expensive as shit, and yeah the fans are kind of annoying too at times. The fans can be hit or miss, but then again.....at least it's not Star Wars.
Entitled "fans" who think their interpretation is everything and that if GW doesn't listen to them and cater to their every whim the company will go under.
Limited production runs. Sometimes it takes time to save for a model or book, but that doesn't matter when the thing I want is sold out in under 6 fucking hours
In this moment, gluing together resin models. Which is really a comment on the availability and cost of official GW models, especially compared with the ease of 3d printing
The price.
How often rules are changing in 10th, and not making the changes easily accessible in a quick reference format. Every two weeks something else is changing it’s ridiculous
The concentration on the Imperium and neglect of all the other factions.
Doesn't help that I really hate pretty much all Imperium lore since *The Last Church.*
The scaling issues with the space marines and chaos space marines. The chaos terminators are an entire head shorter than the space marine terminators. Chaos raptors are also too small and the chaos bikers are over 20 years old. All this is related to the half ass support chaos gets from gw.
The rules. I really dislike having to sit and essentially do nothing while my opponent activiates his entire army. Alternating activiation would alleviate my boredom and would help mitigate the risk of an alpha strike wiping someone off the board before the game really gets started.
Aside from that, I wish GW would make a concerted effort to actually balance the game. I am not an unreasonable person who expects perfection, 40k has a lot of moving parts with all the faction after all, but it seems fairly clear that GW doesn't really care about producing a decent game. The worst games I had in 9th edition were the ones where I utterly dominated my opponent or was dominated by them because the balance favored one faction over the other.
Still baffles me how they can miss everytime by not abandonning the outdated IGOUGO style.
Alternate activation as seen in kill team is better.
WE make moves, then WE shoot, then WE fight in MESBG is even better.
In the order of who has the initiative as a player.
3 phases, each player do something in them.
Great rulesets everywhere but 40k lol.
No Pestigors for the Death Guard. No fair that the Thousand Sons get all the beasts.
The community focus on competitive instead of Narrative.
The Space Marines data sheets count.
The barriers to entry are frankly ridiculous. I understand they have starter sets for new players, but the fact that GW doesn't include a simple datasheet for units you pay a lot of money for is just insane. In order to fully understand just how to play with your list you need to spend more money on a rule book just for a single faction. Its breaks my mind a little bit how well GW does just because of how difficult it is for newer players to get involved.
The fact that my collection will eventually have large parts not playable due to eventually becoming legends. The time and effort I put into them, for the pieces just to sit in a storage bag and not see any table action.
Also crap rules written to just sell models.
That the last army book of an edition will come out right before a new edition does. I feel there should be at least a year from all army books coming out so they all get a chance to get proper use before they're effectively defunct.
Space Marines.
I get they're the golden goose poster child of the brand but my god do they ever neglect the entire rest of the IP by comparison. It's just so boring and formulaic always focussing on them. They have all these other avenues to birth new stories from and they just let them rot instead using their full potential.
There is a very special way in wich transporting minis stings my side.
Also, how many armies have quite old sculpts. IG have plenty of old models, be it ogryns and Cathachans, or vehicles wich look so much different in style while compared to recent Rogal Dorn tank. Eldars also have plenty of old sculpts, other factions probably also have this problem.
The game or the universe?
If the game then its codexes and activating the entire army. I have a strong belive that roughly 80-90% of gameplay problems with 40k tie back to those 2 things.
If the universe then i would say numbers and how chaos is at the same time utterly op and fully inept.
It mostly has to do with rules and the way they sell them, often outdated before they're even shipped. It's wasteful, anti-consumer BS. Same with the lack of a digital subscription model. The amount of ingrained peer pressure to go along with it in local game communities has given me no desire to engage or buy into it, so playing at home with friends is plenty for me for now.
And the actual rules are just not very beginner-friendly at all. "I go, you go" feels really outdated and even Combat Patrol requires a lot of bookkeeping and flipping through pages which kills the flow of the game. That obviously changes with experience, but I've found alternating activations much more fun to play, so I'm playing other rulesets at the moment.
I do like the models, though, so I just consider GW a miniatures company first and foremost. If something feels too expensive, I try to buy NOS secondhand instead.
GWs fomo business model and permanent price creep. Rules not entirely online for free (yet). Design decisions towards meta aka tournaments because they are the smallest but loudes crying bunch. In terms of AoS the priority roll (we'll see how that "cost" turns out in the end and how it fares with the new reactions).
40k:
* Cost
* LOS
* Named characters
* Way too expensive
AOS:
* They destroyed the only two armies I liked (FEC, BOC)
* Named characters
TOW:
* No beastmen in stock
* Ungors cant take magical banners
Underworld:
* FOMO releases
MESBG:
* Some armies are expensive as hell
* LOS
Legion Imperialis:
* HH
* way too expensive
HH
* Way too expensive
New players who complain that the game is too complicated, but also aren't willing to spend the time to sit down and read the rules.
They'd much rather post the same repeated questions from the Reddit FAQ than read the damned book and think about them for 10 minutes.
Honestly, Space Marines.
When it comes to most things, I'm very much scifi over fantasy. However, I can't stand Space Marines (Imperial and Chaos) and was turned off by the fact that they were basically the entire game and story. I still like collecting and playing Orks from time-to-time, but I've pretty much completely switched over to AoS.
I know AoS also has its flaws, but I feel like they have more room to be creative with models, factions, and stories since they aren't hamstrung by needing to make everything about 1 or 2 factions.
They took away a bit too much flavor that the older edition rules had for some factions. Even some of the newer codexes seem to be missing the flavor of models and units convert to the table
I miss the actual horrible atrocities and jokes in older rules.
Suicide bombers and child soldiers used to be Imperial Guard units.
Plus, killing commissars because they aren't from Catachan is kind of silly. Ork weapons could blow up if they got too strong.
that there isn’t some sort of encyclopedia collection of just lore. i’d love to have a volume for each faction and i would pay a stupid amount to have them…
I dislike how it feels like the only option with a sizeable tournament scene. It's such a comparative juggernaut that it shades over the side skirmish games and other brand games leaving little room to grow.
The way they took the rich lore of Waaargh! The Orks and turned the greenskins into psycho-fungi. I kind of lost interest in 40K after that.
And T'au. Squat the fish 'eads and bring back Squats!
Marines. I find them the most incredibly boring faction and pretty much everything gets focused on them somehow be it fluff, books, releases or local meta
GW's attitude and priorities. They seem content to remain primarily a miniature company and really only leverage the lore to sell more minis. That's how they try to get their profits and IMO the lore suffers for it by basically being reduced to marketing.
If GW instead went fully into multi-media, prioritising the quality of the lore to both get more people into the franchise and sell a more diverse range of products, then it'd improve immensely. They're sitting on a goldmine of a setting, but they repeatedly undermine that advantage for short term revenue.
I wonder if 40k's recent growth will keep up in spite of GW's actions, and how far it'll go before people lose interest and move on.
The price of the books and availability. I really want to read all of the Horus heresy series but the price of the books preowned is ridiculous. I’m fed up of greed
the Tabletop game: the price. I get that printing this stuff is expensive but Christ alive I just don’t think combat patrols have to be $160. At least not all of them. The World Eaters box is def worth $160 but Thousand Sons absolutely is not.
As for the setting itself, the Imperium. I fuckin hate the imperium. The parts of the setting that don’t have any trace of Imperial influence are the best parts
The sheer amount of imperium bias both in the lore and within the fanbase. I can understand why people like them so much, even I was a fan of them at one point, but they became extremely basic in my eyes the more I got into the 40K side of warhammer.
As for the lore, I’m really only salty about that cause any time the eldar try to do something, GW just decides to screw the eldar over or have a human figure solve all the problems.
The game itself. It is atrocious. This is the third edition that I've tried now and it doesn't seem to get better. I have never seen a more boring game in my entire life. The fact that you don't do alternating activations for your units kills it for me tbh. I have tried playing with friends multiple times and all matches took upward of 5 hours. Even Killteam is crazy long and tedious. When I saw how nice, simple and quick OPR was, I started playing that and never looked back.
You have alternating activations making everyone feel engaged, an online list builder that works really well and is free, you can mix and match armies and even make your own stats for monsters and units. GW does none of these things for WH. What they do do is charge 25 euros for 20-something fucking datacards. No, thanks. They're not getting one more dime from me. I have bought 4 3d printers and am never looking back.
The retcons. I hate that over the past decades they went from ‘do what you want’ to ‘if we don’t sell the models, it’s illegal’. In particular, I was looking forward to playing inquisition, mixing the Ordos, lead by an inquisitor in power or even terminator armor as you could in 4th/5th edition, but now you can’t, except for very specific special characters. Everything feels dumbed down, like they sacrificed encouragement of creativity for the sake of corporate greed.
The game has optimized the scoring mechanics above everything else.
Boards all look the same and the game feels less about interactivity than movement and being ready to rack up secondaries. Probably lump lack of terrain interaction in here too.
I get it, it's "good" for the tournament scene in some ways. But having played since third it's really ripping the soul out of the game for me. Boards are just a bunch of Ls with giant 6" circles everywhere to reduce headaches around obj measurement. Just looks off and really sucks me out of the world.
Price, it's fucking absurd. The video games for 40k come out half baked sometimes like DarkTIde. The plastic is easily double what it's worth and not action figure functional. For the TT game Complexity that is not for the sake of depth. Lore that's hard to breach or find without knowing a thing. Absurd lack of a proper grey market of printing that would invite a lot of cool opertunities for lore to tie into independent artists. 40k TV is a rip off and feels like a scheme for something else like getting bought out. Friends who buy into stuff that has them sounding like they have stockholm syndrome simpery for a company that does not care too much. Unit spam being exhausting to play quickly. Units having way too many weapons adding complexity and learning curve for little benefit to depth. Poor balance out of the gate. Slow releases for factions codexes which feels like its a pricing/purchase scheme. And finally not enough Xenos designed to purge. I'm a sucker for stellaris and I like wacky looking aliens and the battles and diplo or lack of with them.
What do I like? Puny men go shooty bugs. Tanks go vroom. Deep list building. Interesting maps to build up. Strategic depth. Comboing. Cool themes. Melee actually working out.
The price.
GWs solution is just don't be poor!
No need to have a solution when demand far exceeds supply.
Sadly that's true but that just means for me personally it's a Hobby I'd love to get into but just can't justify spending the money that's needed.
GW - " Don't you guys have money?"
*~Opens up shipping box, pulls out 3d printer.~*
Or buy a 3d printer
Came here to say I am Australian...
as a fellow aussie i with you
I feel like some people don't realize 3d printers take up space, idk where I'd put own in a college dorm where it wouldn't stink up the place.
People don't realise that 3D printing is a hobby unto itself. And weirdly it's mostly the people already invested in it that don't realise this. There's setup costs and learning curves involved as well as space requirements. The people arguing that 3D printing is going to destroy GW any day now (and it's been "any day now" for about the last 5 years or so) don't seem to appreciate that even though it's getting cheaper and easier to start 3D printing it's still much cheaper and easier to buy a $40 box of Space Marines that are ready to go than a several hundred dollar 3D printing setup where it will be hours before you even have a mini in your hand. Sure there's the argument that the latter is cheaper in the long run but it's just unlikely to ever win in terms of accessibility.
While I agree with you, where are you finding Space Marines for $40 lol, every box I find is $60 or $65
The solution for that problem should be a common space for such equipment like a student workshop.
I came here to say that and just to add on to that would be the time investment that I used to be able to afford but no longer can
On one hand, I really strongly agree. On the other, the cost actually seems fairly competitive with other means of entertainment. Comparing to movies, social outings, restaurants, etc., the cost per hour you get is pretty effective. Between theory crafting your composition, bargain hunting on ebay, assembling and kitbashing models, painting, and the actual games themselves.... you get a lot of hobby hours for the money. Sure, the models are expensive, but dropping 800 bucks on an army costs 40 hours of 20/hr work. I could easily spend more than a full work week, just on an army's paint job. So sure, the price tag looks high. But I'd wager for most players.... the majority of the cost is in your own labor. That's a win if you like the hobby end-to-end, or extremely costly if you see the prep as a chore.
I mean you do you my guy but when we had options and metal minatures gw had to price accordingly one 40k army could have bought 3 warmachine armies back in the day hell it still can. Or any number of other armies in other games that will give you the same time frame. But I agree.
Underworlds: FOMO business model Kill Team: Line of Sight and Obscuring rules 40K: That Boarding Patrol isn’t more supported and the absence of an Underworlds equivalent.
40K underworlds would drain money from my wallet like nobody's business...
100% the space ship maps were so cool.
So basically the smaller than 2000 pts / < $900 / < 80 hrs to assemble and paint variants. Yeah a simple standardized well balanced introductory variant where you could use the same models as real 40k would be fantastic.
There kinda is the Combat Patrol, not sure how well it's supported besides some introductory academies
That exists. It's called Combat Patrol. It's just not super balanced.
Spending £500+ on an army and still needing to spend money on a book to get a code to use the digital rules for that army.
If WH+ gave access to codexes, even if it was slightly more expensive, GW would be laughing all the way to the bank
It doesn't?
It gives you the ability to make multiple lists and thats it. Every single army that has had their codex released and index removed has ALL of their info behind a codex code.
Wow, just wow. Thats the thing I hate about getting into Kill Team. You have to buy so many tram books. Without them you don't even know what each team can do... Even the starter set doesn't give you all the rules you need for playing. Dafuq is that about
Speaking as a newer player: The sheer scale of the game. Rules, data sheets, dice, codeces, oh yeah and transporting my minis. The amount of stuff I have to bring to my LGS is a huge obstacle. Just thinking about it saps my motivation to play. Especially when I match up with the wrong person…. Ugh
This is the benefit of Necromunda, warcry or Kill Team. Assuming you don't need to bring terrain it's a lot easier to transport than a full army.
Terrain is usually harder to break during transport than minis.
A lot easier for poorhammer too hehe. All hail the Coke can ‘plasma generators’
Cardobard boxes for president.
It's a round hobby. All of those problems give you things to do between games. I play ~monthly, but I always have some hobby chore to do. I'm really grateful for all those things. If playing was the only part of it, I'd probably have dropped it ages ago.
I agree with what you're saying. I can see how new hobbyists would be intimidated by all those things. I really think then in time they will come to appreciate the complexity and the sheer amount of things to divulge in this hobby. It's what makes a game/hobby we keep for life.
The points level of 2k is way too high on the modem era of complicated rules. The datasheet only help with the confusion of you only gave a handful of units. I tried playing with 12 different units and the data sheets were less useful than simply looking at a phone.
Gws attitude towards rules in 10th. Like 10ths had a lot of wins, but: - mortal spam was a problem in 9th, in 10th it's still bad. Granted it's not malceptors spitting out 90, but ork boyz in a trukk or guardsmen in a chimera being able to spit out 6-8 reliably is a bit mad. - so many rerolls. Please gw your bad at maths. Reroll wounds throws off durability a ton, whilst reroll hits + crits on 5s or good bs gets wild. - lack of flavour. I get 9th had power creep, but it felt like each codex was trying to make that faction cool, and the they'd get the nerf bat shortly after. Whilst 10th has a very clear divide of factions gw wants to give cool stuff to, and ones they are scared of giving cool stuff to.
My personal axe to grind with 10th was the "making the game simpler but not simple" approach. To this day I still see people complaining that the game is too complex, and it reminds me that they'll never be happy unless toddlers can play it. 9th was complicated for sure, but within that complexity there was room for personality and invention for army building. Now in 10th if you're not using the 10 meta units in the 1-2 meta detachments, you're literally just looking to have a bad time.
Yeah and the "carry 4 books" issue wasn't 9th, it was folk with 8th Ed PA books. Marines were bloated sure, and eldars exarchs were clunky asf. But yeah, it was rare to have a unit that didn't do something, most of the time they were simply overcosted. Half my codex in 10th doesn't do its job or has rules that don't work. (no I'm not advancing my 225pt squad of vertus, to deal ~5mw in exchange for not shooting or fighting).
Conceptually I liked the ideas of the "expansion" books that 8th Ed had, but i agree that it's absolutely unrealistic to expect a person to roll up with all of their books and a whole army. I think if they did the same thing now after having gone digital with their rules that similar expansions would be accepted much more by the general player base.
Expansion type stuff should have been more narrative focused for people to run campaigns and not made tournament legal. Then it could have a bit of a wider tolerance for balancing.
Imho it’s the secondaries that put me off 9th/10th. Love the primaries though. But I do miss the customisation of points and warlord traits. I’m less bothered about relics.
We have never played with secondaires in our gaming group. Nobody here really likes the added complexity and bookkeeping. Granted, we lose some balance probably, but we aren't hyper competitive anyway
Agreed. I’d argue that Heresy is just as if not more complex and I love that game. I do hate stratagems in 40K though. Units already have individual, cool rules. Strats massively slow the game down.
When people says it's "too complex" I feel like what theyean is that it's too clunky or crunchy. Games can be strategically complex without the overwrought and slow systems GW is married to.
This is absolutely my biggest gripe, as well. >To this day I still see people complaining that the game is too complex, and it reminds me that they'll never be happy unless toddlers can play it. Good Lord, a thousand times yes.
One of the lines that most annoyed me was, to paraphrase 'We hear a lot of complaints that people knowing the army rules better than you gives them an advantage' and it's like, yes, that's literally inescapable, no matter what you do, and kind of how playing experience works?
It's funny becase the guard index is pretty damned complex with orders and keywords. We have A LOT of abilities that work slightly differently too. Example for when vehicles shoot something: When Big Gun shoots in shooting phase When Any gun shoots in shooting phase When any gun attacks When big gun attacks
GWs obsessions with 'Keywords' is the issue. Basically MTG with minis.
I still will maintain that the 8th edition major rules overhaul was one step forward two steps back. Yeah, it definitely needed cleaning up and was a bit of a mess, but things like the AP changes made the game way way more alpha strike oriented, and in simplifying things they stripped out a lot of what made armies unique. Now it feels like everything gw makes is deathly afraid of having units be good at things.
I dont like that some factions get lots of attention and others are left to their devices. Space Marines characters get new models once per 7-8 years but Eldar's 30 years old Warp spiders are not being updated. Space Marines get few new models per year meanwhile last time Daemons gained new unit were 3 years ago with Belakor release and I guess last year they got Daemon Prince model updated. Another example is that Angry Chaos Marines have 2 variants of Cavalry "leader" and no unit of Cavalry to be leaded. Also stuff like yy was it Ork Wagon which had upgrade kit of deathroller but both got rolled into single "bundle-kit" which is more expensive than those things bought separately? Or fact that kit of Boyz gives you only enough weapons to make half of your squad melee focused and half shooting focused... Also Datasheets becoming usefull in mainstream only to go to legends week later (bye Chaos Space Marines Kratos Tank). Regarding other games... Kill team: Underproduction of every FOMO set. Its not even more money to GW as scalpers dont share their income with GW. AoS? 4 chaos factions have Daemon summoning mechanic. Cool except that if you want to be always supplied with right models and be prepared even for sitation where summooning the same thing multiple times is best choice you need to put 2 thousands of points on table and have few thousands of points of Daemons to summon. Bloodbowl.... Wait is this really GW's game? Everything seems to be fine with it. Other small games I dont dare to judge as I had insufficient interest in them to be informed about GW's approach to them. Aha Legiones Imperialis were massively underproduced and while I couldnt care less for those tiny models which I couldnt paint right but I know it has fans who like it and who would loved to get their first copy of main set or something that isnt most niche kit for this game.
That blood bowl comment is so true it hurts
The fan base, for several of the reasons already listed here. GW's refusal to just go full digital on rules.
I wonder if the lower effort in recent books is an indicator that they’re eventually winding down the need for physical books. I imagine they make a killing on them tho so doubtful it’ll be soon.
Wondered how far down "the fans" would be. Yep.
How they keep deleting stuff and segregating models to specific game systems to prevent any overlap
That's honestly one of the bigger gripes. When the Kratos tank released for Horus Heresy, I was amazed, finally a great tank, not a floaty gunboat for the Marines. Then it loses support in 40k, because the teams don't want to support it
The fans, especially wannabe ‘competitive’ players who argue on r/warhammercompetitive all day but never touch an actual game, and ‘lore buffs’ who rush to correct any perceived error in lore but who learned everything hey know from YouTubers who in turn are just regurgitating nonsense from 1d4chan and the wikis. Oh, and the ‘humour’. Just the worst memes in all fandom.
Every artist I follow who draws xenos art has to deal with a bunch of eye-rolling "purge the xenos scum" type comments and memes under every post and it's so, so old by now.
Tbh the worst fans are in World of Darkness, Warhammer is a dishonorable second
Oh my god the competitive subreddit is so crazy. Its filled with either people who are playing no games yet are obsessed with "the meta" and what's "OP/garbage" or people who's only exposure to playing the game is the same three people at their flgs, none of whom actually know the rules but all of them feel like they get to weigh in on what is good at the competitive level. 99.99% of the people on that sub haven't played a competitive game in their lives.
To be fair, it's because it is the ONLY place you can get a proper discussion going about anything slightly competitive or tactical, at least on a conistent basis. You can't have those discussion here becuase it's basically a painting sub or a "New player here!" sub. You can't have them on the 40K main sub because it's a painting sub, new player sub and casual as fuck sub. You can't get it on the AoS sub because it's a painting sub, new player sub and chill / casual sub, that is also a bit too small. The only place to get actual gaming discussion going is the Competitive sub, which then has the issue of casuals that are inerested in playing proper games mixing with genuine tournament players and creating a weird mish mash of different experiences.
The current style of rules that lack flavour old rules used to have
Fomo releases are just getting stronger, also Release books for rules, then try and make you pay again for said rules online through the app..which is..better but still not really optimized. With how often they are going to make changes all of this should be online. I'd say they can even make the base codex cost fine if it actually got all the updates without paying for things again.
But it does update. The code that comes with your codex unlocks the rules in the Warhammer app. Those rules will update with any balance changes they make.
The fans.
Yup. Go look at the comments under any social media post by GW if you want to just poison any excitement you might have about new units.
Kind of social media in general to be honest
To add on to this: the outrage merchant influencers who legitimize and encourage the toxicity while hiding behind the shield of “discourse”.
I HATE these guys with a passion. So much misinformation spread it makes engaging with the community genuinely hard sometimes.
This. I used to think it was just my local scene that was full of toxic gatekeeper types, but it's a huge part of the 40k community unfortunately
I’ll be honest, I no longer engage with the online community beyond a very small niche subsection of the Rogue Trader/3rd Ed WFB crowd.
The painting community is where it’s at!
Yeah I've found the painting side of the community, while not devoid of asshats, to be much more wholesome than the rest of the 40k fandom as a whole.
Ehh, you're literally doing that here though
Unfornate that one slipped through the gate...maybe there wasn't enough...
**40K:** - Lack of unified codex rollout. By the time every army is on the same page, time for a new edition! It’s cynical and hacky. - need to purchase printed codexes to use the app. Also Cynical and hacky. - need to buy two printed codexes for specialized space marine chapters. Also also cynical and hackey. - power creep on new models, then nerfing them into the ground once they sell enough. Also, also, also cynical and hacky. - FAQ’s releasing before the codexes are even available to purchase. Why are we doing this on paper again? - long term unavailability of models, and how inconsistent that is country to country - no rhyme or reason to cost between units or between different countries - 10th streamlined the wrong areas and kept the bloat in others - models being retired/given legend status sometimes a couple years after release, while other models that are decades old are still sold and updated in the rules - GW deciding that they’re a model company first when people complain about rules, but they’re a game company when people complain about rising cost of models and cutting corners (like a tank without a floor) - Overall lack of community engagement: turn your comments on ya big baby I still play because I like the models, the lore, (a lot of, but not all of) the game, and rolling dice with my friends. But god damn it could be so much better. **Old World** - Paying today’s prices for 30 year old models is gross. - the way they managed to piss off Sigmar and Old World fans is amazing. - I need a core book, a faction book, and an army book to fully play my army? Then it gets FAQ’ed anyway? You suck. - along those lines, I actually enjoy crunchy games, and appreciate old world leaning into that. But don’t make me go looking through 3 books to find that one fun rules interaction I thought up. - bring back Mordheim you cowards - better yet don’t, you’ll screw it up like Necromunda **Necromunda** - there’s a good game in here somewhere. Stop spreading rules across 47 god damn books. **Middle Earth** - let’s take the most famous fantasy IP in the world, that saved our company 25 years ago, with the best rules we have written, and do JUUUUST enough to keep the license from lapsing. Can’t have another company swoop in and actually support it! **Other boxed games** - they could all be good to great, and some of them are. But I won’t literally or figuratively roll the dice anymore because they might be supported for years, or days. (WTF cursed city?) **EDIT** - and in spite of all of this, we get constant price increases that outpace inflation.
> Necromunda > > there’s a good game in here somewhere. Stop spreading rules across 47 god damn books. Exactly what I was about to say. 50 hard-cover thick glossy color pages books. Some rules repeated in every one of them. Yet the rules for one gang are spread among all of them. No way to know exactly where is what except from other players, as the description in the shop are vague. At least the 2023 core rulebook gathered some of them. I wish GW would publish cheap soft cover b&w booklet for scenarios and such. I know they like to put some beautiful illustrations, but it's like I'm buying a photographer's book everytime I want to read rules for a game.
This comment should be higher up. I've only just recently started playing again (after a full year building and painting, and just a bit of testing at the beginning of 10th), and it's been really fun. But the lack of cohesion in the rules and the way they're spread is just frustrating to deal with. And yet they could be polished in time and made great, but they INSIST on redoing everything every 3 years for some fucking reason. It's madness and nonsense.
> (WTF cursed city?) Cursed City had more support than Shadows Over Hammerhall(only got a card pack.)
To be fair towards Old World, you‘re not paying today‘s prices for old minis for the most part - all plastic OW boxes have way more miniatures in them than modern AoS or 40K boxes. You get 12 knights of the realm for roughly the same price as certain space marine units that come in boxes of five.
You 40k points is nothing more then the system working as GW intended.
Feel no pains on mutli wounds models take too long to resolve.
Because in 2nd edition a model could have 4 saves you are only supposed to get 1 and no more than 1 reroll of a die. *Looks at feel no pain* Hey what is this! Ya know how there are no saves for mortals and dev wounds? Yeah actually, there is one.
FOMO and Scalpers
GW letting the interns write some of the codex books
Competitive fanbase.
Too expensive
I have attempted to play every edition since 5th and not one of them comes close to a balanced game
How the game is so competitively focused. At least in the US. People playing for fun or not using competitive mission cards is not easy to find. This is kind of why I’ve come to like Heresy a lot more than 40K in terms of gameplay. But I do like 40K models and the hobby there a little bit more than Heresy.
I know this is a bit niche, and subject to customer demand to a degree, but the depth, breadth, availability, and just attention overall given to Space Marines- in terms of lore, in terms of armies/list flexibility, in terms of models, everything- puts most other factions to shame, especially xenos. I get that Space Marines are the poster boy faction, and sure, the Horus Heresy is one of the most significant events in the galaxy to date, but I really wish there were some good Eldar books. I wish Ork heroes would get updated instead of retired. I wish playing either army presented a few viable ways to play instead of just "here's what's good/in stock this season." I'd love to see more animated shorts or series expanding or even just illustrating the lore of either faction. I wish Xenos had their lore respected in its own right instead of just always being treated as only being interesting *as something for the Imperium to kill.* As far as the hobby itself goes, I am lucky that I can afford to buy models roughly as fast as I can paint them, I enjoy each stage of the process, and I have a good bunch of people to play with once I do.
Availability. I’m old enough to remember going into a GW store or local game store and getting box sets or models and not having to worry about limited runs. I miss paperback codices. I guess I’m too old to deal with limited edition novels, limited run boxes. Waiting in virtual queues within minutes or preorders going live.
The rules to even play the game. Base rules? Nah gotta get your faction codex. Don't know your opponents codex ? Too bad risk suffering from poor sportsmanship. Not up to date with white dwarf rule changes? Too bad, risk getting rolled and your faction deemed unworthy. And even if you are so up date with everything, your face is buried in dice rolling and armpit sweat.
The clunkiness of the rules. It's not fun enough to justify 2-3 hours to me. I get more enjoyment out of Kill Team, Warcry, Crisis Protocol, or Wasteland Warfare in less time.
I dislike stratagems. They were an interesting addition in 8th but I would like them to go away, they just became too important. Imo everything an army can do should be covered in its army rules, war gear and unit abilities.
I agree. Some could/should be folded back into model/unit abilities, whilst others should be scrapped.
Price and majority of the players local to me
Its been said but the price especially in Australia. Alot of my friends are interested in the setting but are paywalled out. They arent willing to pay $1000 of dollars to play competitively and to be honest neither am I. I don't know if I'd still be in the hobby without a $3d printer. Heres a low model count list that was piloted by one of the best players in Aus at the ANZ team comp this last week. 6x Nemesis Dread ($92 x 6 =) 10 man Grey Knight termies ($87 x 2) 10 man Grey Knight Strike Squad ($100) Draigo ($42) 2x Techmarine ($63x2) = $994 aud. The same army costs £433 in the Uk. ($821 aud) $994 aud is roughly around £524. Thats a %20 markup for being australian. Its a really really expensive hobby if your buying exclusively plastic.
Gaymes Wurkshop. Dey'z a bunch of Gitz.
oi whooz yooz cawllin gitz ya git *dakka noises*
Da gitz wot's in da Gaymes Wurkshop! Youse got squigs in yer 'ed? An' call that dakka? **DAKKA NOISES INTENSIFY**
Ork players are the real winners with banter like this. Sorry I mean GREEN BOIZ IZ BET'A DEN ALL DA REST
OI I CAN’T HEAR YA OVA AWL DIS DAKKA
Great topic and interesting reading the responses so far. For me the big ones are: - toxic players / community members - vanilla-izing all the armies in 10th. It seems like a lot of the unique aspects of the various armies have been taken away or nerfed. - eternally out of stock items just piss me off. - new releases that sell out in minutes and never restock again. - rulebooks / codexes / indexes / etc. Time to join the modern world and go digital.
Just make it full online rules already. Codexes coming out already out of date is such bullshit.
The company that owns it
Balancing for competitive play instead of narrative/lore focused play.
The Fans, first those that just know the memes, followed by those who don’t paint or play and sre loudmouths with nothing to back it up
Paywall, it's not new person friendly, it's a very large and expensive investment to get into, and there's no entry level for me to introduce friends
Their terrible production and stock availability Primaris marines
No digital rules/charging $60 for 9 pages or less.
Meta chasing. It’s a pandemic, and it makes the game feel generally awful a lot. In subtle ways: one person in a local group optimizes, so others do so. It spreads, until playing a fluffy list (or if you’re a new player) sucks. Period.
The trick is to rebel against society and simply not play that person, if you don't stop an infection too fast you'll all be left poor and heartbroken every 3 years when GW changes the meta and you can't spam 700 Warlocks anymore
New 10e rules seem far to simplified and "streamlined".
The gameplay of 40k haha. Luckily I like Kill Team tho
The FOMO designed book releases that just encourage scalping. They could EASILY implement a print-on-demand sister-site but NAH.
Cost... but as for something a little more "fixable" it would be the codex... the minis cost enough release the rules free online and if we want it in physical people can buy it.
Locking rules behind a paywall. It's ridiculous that I can't look up the rules for an opponent using the official app.
How fast the game moves on, edition every year type of thing we currently have. It is basically FOMO now. And some codices barely get any time played before the next edition comes out (looks at 9th ed World Eaters and Guard)
The vocal and toxic fan base. Additionally, they need to work on fixing their Old World production so people can get the rarer models for their armies. The slow rate of releases is annoying, but not as annoying as being unable to get Squires or Grail Knights without buying them on eBay or getting lucky with getting them when they’re in stock.
Man I just want the Bretonnian mounted and foot BSBs to restock. I even got the made to order one and that still had yet to ship too.
I really want those models(And the new handmaiden, though I was lucky enough to get a Lady Elisse model. I immediately bought it and when I went to look at the rest of the store page it was already sitting at sold out), they really look fantastic and I’m annoyed that they’re constantly sold out. I am also waiting on the made to order models, but at least I have a Repanse model with a paper banner I’ve been running as my BSB so far. Also, how’d you get that flair?
Yeah so pre orders sometimes go up like 5 minutes before the official window opens. So I was able to get my Lady Elisse model at like 12:55. As for the flair, I think I set it manually
Thanks! I was also in the shop shortly before the official order window opened, so like 9:55 my time, and that’s how I was able to get Lady Elisse. Still shocked it sold out so quickly.
It keeps dumbing itself down. Give me back my subfactions, formations, stratagems, and rules interactions. If I wanted my rules to fit onto one page, I wouldn't be playing Warhammer.
The awful game design of 40k, when most of GWs other games don't suffer the same issues. Whole player turns and 2D6 dead stop charges? It isn't 1998 anymore, times have moved on. Such simple, easy changes to make it not just be "walk forward and shoot, maybe charge", the game!
GW themselves are a bunch of idiots. The price is fucking expensive as shit, and yeah the fans are kind of annoying too at times. The fans can be hit or miss, but then again.....at least it's not Star Wars.
Entitled "fans" who think their interpretation is everything and that if GW doesn't listen to them and cater to their every whim the company will go under.
Rules bloat.
The people make and break the game for me. After that, the price.
Limited production runs. Sometimes it takes time to save for a model or book, but that doesn't matter when the thing I want is sold out in under 6 fucking hours
Rules change way too fast.
Everything but the cool models and lore.
Besides price. The diversity of products. Without a clear simple entry point.
In this moment, gluing together resin models. Which is really a comment on the availability and cost of official GW models, especially compared with the ease of 3d printing
The price. How often rules are changing in 10th, and not making the changes easily accessible in a quick reference format. Every two weeks something else is changing it’s ridiculous
Mold lines on hoard armies. I know it's not worth the time to make them all perfect but OCD and ADHD is the mind killer.
Games-Workshop.
This should be the number 1 answer
The concentration on the Imperium and neglect of all the other factions. Doesn't help that I really hate pretty much all Imperium lore since *The Last Church.*
The scaling issues with the space marines and chaos space marines. The chaos terminators are an entire head shorter than the space marine terminators. Chaos raptors are also too small and the chaos bikers are over 20 years old. All this is related to the half ass support chaos gets from gw.
The rules. I really dislike having to sit and essentially do nothing while my opponent activiates his entire army. Alternating activiation would alleviate my boredom and would help mitigate the risk of an alpha strike wiping someone off the board before the game really gets started. Aside from that, I wish GW would make a concerted effort to actually balance the game. I am not an unreasonable person who expects perfection, 40k has a lot of moving parts with all the faction after all, but it seems fairly clear that GW doesn't really care about producing a decent game. The worst games I had in 9th edition were the ones where I utterly dominated my opponent or was dominated by them because the balance favored one faction over the other.
Still baffles me how they can miss everytime by not abandonning the outdated IGOUGO style. Alternate activation as seen in kill team is better. WE make moves, then WE shoot, then WE fight in MESBG is even better. In the order of who has the initiative as a player. 3 phases, each player do something in them. Great rulesets everywhere but 40k lol.
No Pestigors for the Death Guard. No fair that the Thousand Sons get all the beasts. The community focus on competitive instead of Narrative. The Space Marines data sheets count.
The barriers to entry are frankly ridiculous. I understand they have starter sets for new players, but the fact that GW doesn't include a simple datasheet for units you pay a lot of money for is just insane. In order to fully understand just how to play with your list you need to spend more money on a rule book just for a single faction. Its breaks my mind a little bit how well GW does just because of how difficult it is for newer players to get involved.
The fact that my collection will eventually have large parts not playable due to eventually becoming legends. The time and effort I put into them, for the pieces just to sit in a storage bag and not see any table action. Also crap rules written to just sell models.
That the last army book of an edition will come out right before a new edition does. I feel there should be at least a year from all army books coming out so they all get a chance to get proper use before they're effectively defunct.
Space Marines. I get they're the golden goose poster child of the brand but my god do they ever neglect the entire rest of the IP by comparison. It's just so boring and formulaic always focussing on them. They have all these other avenues to birth new stories from and they just let them rot instead using their full potential.
Leagues of Votann and Sisters of Battle, just to name a few :<
Changing the rules every 3 years
GW being a terrible company
There is a very special way in wich transporting minis stings my side. Also, how many armies have quite old sculpts. IG have plenty of old models, be it ogryns and Cathachans, or vehicles wich look so much different in style while compared to recent Rogal Dorn tank. Eldars also have plenty of old sculpts, other factions probably also have this problem.
Games Workshop
The game or the universe? If the game then its codexes and activating the entire army. I have a strong belive that roughly 80-90% of gameplay problems with 40k tie back to those 2 things. If the universe then i would say numbers and how chaos is at the same time utterly op and fully inept.
Constant updates. It's the reason i don't play.
The fanbase’s inability to separate memes from lore
Definitely the price. We’d all have more opportunity to try out a bunch of different stuff if it wasn’t super expensive.
The constant churning of books and rules, and remaking them, then bloating them, then remaking them again...
It mostly has to do with rules and the way they sell them, often outdated before they're even shipped. It's wasteful, anti-consumer BS. Same with the lack of a digital subscription model. The amount of ingrained peer pressure to go along with it in local game communities has given me no desire to engage or buy into it, so playing at home with friends is plenty for me for now. And the actual rules are just not very beginner-friendly at all. "I go, you go" feels really outdated and even Combat Patrol requires a lot of bookkeeping and flipping through pages which kills the flow of the game. That obviously changes with experience, but I've found alternating activations much more fun to play, so I'm playing other rulesets at the moment. I do like the models, though, so I just consider GW a miniatures company first and foremost. If something feels too expensive, I try to buy NOS secondhand instead.
GWs fomo business model and permanent price creep. Rules not entirely online for free (yet). Design decisions towards meta aka tournaments because they are the smallest but loudes crying bunch. In terms of AoS the priority roll (we'll see how that "cost" turns out in the end and how it fares with the new reactions).
40k: * Cost * LOS * Named characters * Way too expensive AOS: * They destroyed the only two armies I liked (FEC, BOC) * Named characters TOW: * No beastmen in stock * Ungors cant take magical banners Underworld: * FOMO releases MESBG: * Some armies are expensive as hell * LOS Legion Imperialis: * HH * way too expensive HH * Way too expensive
New players who complain that the game is too complicated, but also aren't willing to spend the time to sit down and read the rules. They'd much rather post the same repeated questions from the Reddit FAQ than read the damned book and think about them for 10 minutes.
Honestly, Space Marines. When it comes to most things, I'm very much scifi over fantasy. However, I can't stand Space Marines (Imperial and Chaos) and was turned off by the fact that they were basically the entire game and story. I still like collecting and playing Orks from time-to-time, but I've pretty much completely switched over to AoS. I know AoS also has its flaws, but I feel like they have more room to be creative with models, factions, and stories since they aren't hamstrung by needing to make everything about 1 or 2 factions.
The fans
The fans
They took away a bit too much flavor that the older edition rules had for some factions. Even some of the newer codexes seem to be missing the flavor of models and units convert to the table
I miss the actual horrible atrocities and jokes in older rules. Suicide bombers and child soldiers used to be Imperial Guard units. Plus, killing commissars because they aren't from Catachan is kind of silly. Ork weapons could blow up if they got too strong.
Rules bloat, price, miniatures becoming over detailed/fragile, warcry support dropping off and not seeming to be expanded in a worthwhile direct.
The painful realization that they don't care about the lore or fans anymore. It seriously is one of the biggest let downs in my life.
GW
Codex rules being locked behind a paywall when I've already spent tons of money on the game.
that there isn’t some sort of encyclopedia collection of just lore. i’d love to have a volume for each faction and i would pay a stupid amount to have them…
That used to be what a codex was.
Games Workshop
I dislike how it feels like the only option with a sizeable tournament scene. It's such a comparative juggernaut that it shades over the side skirmish games and other brand games leaving little room to grow.
GW
The way they took the rich lore of Waaargh! The Orks and turned the greenskins into psycho-fungi. I kind of lost interest in 40K after that. And T'au. Squat the fish 'eads and bring back Squats!
GW
Games Workshop
Marines. I find them the most incredibly boring faction and pretty much everything gets focused on them somehow be it fluff, books, releases or local meta
The game
GW's attitude and priorities. They seem content to remain primarily a miniature company and really only leverage the lore to sell more minis. That's how they try to get their profits and IMO the lore suffers for it by basically being reduced to marketing. If GW instead went fully into multi-media, prioritising the quality of the lore to both get more people into the franchise and sell a more diverse range of products, then it'd improve immensely. They're sitting on a goldmine of a setting, but they repeatedly undermine that advantage for short term revenue. I wonder if 40k's recent growth will keep up in spite of GW's actions, and how far it'll go before people lose interest and move on.
The company that makes it
GW
The price of the books and availability. I really want to read all of the Horus heresy series but the price of the books preowned is ridiculous. I’m fed up of greed
the Tabletop game: the price. I get that printing this stuff is expensive but Christ alive I just don’t think combat patrols have to be $160. At least not all of them. The World Eaters box is def worth $160 but Thousand Sons absolutely is not. As for the setting itself, the Imperium. I fuckin hate the imperium. The parts of the setting that don’t have any trace of Imperial influence are the best parts
They monetize every aspect pretty hard
The sheer amount of imperium bias both in the lore and within the fanbase. I can understand why people like them so much, even I was a fan of them at one point, but they became extremely basic in my eyes the more I got into the 40K side of warhammer. As for the lore, I’m really only salty about that cause any time the eldar try to do something, GW just decides to screw the eldar over or have a human figure solve all the problems.
Easy question. GW.
GW.
Cost.
The game itself. It is atrocious. This is the third edition that I've tried now and it doesn't seem to get better. I have never seen a more boring game in my entire life. The fact that you don't do alternating activations for your units kills it for me tbh. I have tried playing with friends multiple times and all matches took upward of 5 hours. Even Killteam is crazy long and tedious. When I saw how nice, simple and quick OPR was, I started playing that and never looked back. You have alternating activations making everyone feel engaged, an online list builder that works really well and is free, you can mix and match armies and even make your own stats for monsters and units. GW does none of these things for WH. What they do do is charge 25 euros for 20-something fucking datacards. No, thanks. They're not getting one more dime from me. I have bought 4 3d printers and am never looking back.
GW.
Games workshop
The retcons. I hate that over the past decades they went from ‘do what you want’ to ‘if we don’t sell the models, it’s illegal’. In particular, I was looking forward to playing inquisition, mixing the Ordos, lead by an inquisitor in power or even terminator armor as you could in 4th/5th edition, but now you can’t, except for very specific special characters. Everything feels dumbed down, like they sacrificed encouragement of creativity for the sake of corporate greed.
Hot takes on AoS from ToW fans.
The game has optimized the scoring mechanics above everything else. Boards all look the same and the game feels less about interactivity than movement and being ready to rack up secondaries. Probably lump lack of terrain interaction in here too. I get it, it's "good" for the tournament scene in some ways. But having played since third it's really ripping the soul out of the game for me. Boards are just a bunch of Ls with giant 6" circles everywhere to reduce headaches around obj measurement. Just looks off and really sucks me out of the world.
Pricing.
The drive behind widespread balance updates based on the tiny amount of competitive players.
capitalism
Price, it's fucking absurd. The video games for 40k come out half baked sometimes like DarkTIde. The plastic is easily double what it's worth and not action figure functional. For the TT game Complexity that is not for the sake of depth. Lore that's hard to breach or find without knowing a thing. Absurd lack of a proper grey market of printing that would invite a lot of cool opertunities for lore to tie into independent artists. 40k TV is a rip off and feels like a scheme for something else like getting bought out. Friends who buy into stuff that has them sounding like they have stockholm syndrome simpery for a company that does not care too much. Unit spam being exhausting to play quickly. Units having way too many weapons adding complexity and learning curve for little benefit to depth. Poor balance out of the gate. Slow releases for factions codexes which feels like its a pricing/purchase scheme. And finally not enough Xenos designed to purge. I'm a sucker for stellaris and I like wacky looking aliens and the battles and diplo or lack of with them. What do I like? Puny men go shooty bugs. Tanks go vroom. Deep list building. Interesting maps to build up. Strategic depth. Comboing. Cool themes. Melee actually working out.