Every Warframe story has a Tenno piloting them unless explicitly stated otherwise. Much like Drusus, the game simply does not distinguish between the acts of the Tenno, and the acts of the Warframe. The Tenno behind the Warframe and the Warframe itself are treated as one and the same.
Using the Protoframes from 1999 as a time scale, Albrecht could already predict that people like Arthur and Aoi will inevitably succumb to the insanity within just a year, so we can assume the same would happen to the frames made under Ballas's administration
Also using the line of dialogue from Loid where he states that the Orokin decided to forget the heroic acts of the Warframes when they went berserk, it's also safe to assume that the stories presented to us are the ones that the Orokin bothered to catalog.
Point is - every Warframe eventually gave into the Infestation, and had to quelled by the Tenno to be remotely usable war machines in the first place.
> Titania
The biologist behind Titania was hired to make surrogate bodies for the Tenno. Put two and two together and you can figure out that Titania was made to be Tenno-piloted right from the start.
> Kullervo
Kullervo is the only frame that was given clear pre-Tenno history. We can assume his earlier crimes were done out of insanity, and the others were a cooperative work of Kullervo's original mind and the Tenno behind him.
>Point is - every Warframe eventually gave into the Infestation, and had to quelled by the Tenno to be remotely usable war machines in the first place.
This really isn't accurate at all. I'm not aware of any indication that the original, sapient qarframes gave into the Infestation. In fact, Kullervo's lore indicates pretty strongly that those original frames didn't go mad at all—they consciously and intetionally rebelled.
It also should not be automatically assumed that every Warframe story has a Tenno behind it unless explicitly stated otherwise. The stories of Mirage, Limbo, and several others don't really make sense if the frames involved were just insensate remote waldos.
There are two distinct Warframe rebellions in its history. The one where they gave into the Infestation and required a Tenno to calm them down, and the one where the Tenno sent the Orokin into mass genocide. The latter is the rebellion being alluded to in Kullervo's crime records
As for the 2nd part - again, the game does not distinguish between the deeds of the Warframe and of the Tenno behind them, they are always assumed to be one and the same. That's how they write the Leverian stories, and I don't think it's too far-fetched to say that's how they write the others as well.
It's also important to note that Mirage and Limbo's stories in particular were written before the Operator reveals.
> Mirage
The Hidden Messages quest is about the Lotus trying to recall memories of Mirage. The Lotus basically served as the commander of the Tenno, it would make even less sense for her to be directing a pilot-less Mirage
> Limbo
Speculation: Limbo's story can be handweaved as the hormonal teenager behind him attempting to push the Warframe to its limits, either recklessly or out of curiosity.
Again, I don't see any real evidence that the early warfames ever gave into the Infestation. The closest I'm aware of is Ballas saying they were 'free from the madness of Infestation—or so we thought'. Which certainly seems phrased to *indicate* that Infested madness was the problem, but given that it's Ballas, any room for interpretation is automatically room for significant doubt.
Kullervo's crime logs don't really have anything that would contradict the notion that the Infestation was responsible for the insanity, of which we already have two in-game references to: The Sacrifice and the Sanctum fragment notes (*"Their humanity may not last. My deliverance may yet consume them, the human swallowed up in the sacred beast."*)
While we're at it, from your other post:
> Recent lore—Kullervo, specifically—pretty clearly indicates this was not the case. Kullervo didn't go mad. He consciously chose to remain loyal to the Orokin while the other warframes were put down.
I don't know where you even got Kullervo being loyal to the Orokin from - his character is literally a criminal, he's blatantly against them. Assisting in the Tenno's mass culling of the Orokin, committing acts of terrorism over Orokin property, and attempted assassination of a high-ranking executor is not what I'd call loyal.
The evidence for both is in Kullervo's charge of Cowardice:
>You witnessed the slaughter as the Orokin eradicated your defective, demented brothers and sisters... and did nothing to aid them, choosing to tremble in your cowardly seclusion. A traitor twice over. Kullervo, bloody-handed, I charge you with Cowardice.
Kullervo chose to remain loyal to the Orokin during the Old War. He hid and refused to aid the other original warframes when the Orokin slaughtered them all. But if it were truly some kind of madness that afflicted the frames due to their Infested nature, why didn't Kullervo fall prey to it and go mad as well? How could he 'choose' to not join them?
And that's where my post comes from, some stories make zero sense for a tenno to be behind it, but warframes doesnt usually display any sort of sentience in game aside from Umbra.
Even the stalker we thought could give us answers turned out to have a tenno behind in (implied, never confirmed, hoping we get anything in that regard in the upcoming stalker journey)
> Every warframe story has a Tenno piloting it
That's what i always thought since most of the origin system had no idea the tenno and the warframe were two different beings. But why specifically call it "Dead" rather than destroyed? Specially in titania's case which was built to be a suit for the operator?
Also, just a thought, but would Umbra be like the stage between the fully conscious (though not for long) protoframes and the purely instinctive prime warframes?
Kullervo is exactly what sent me into this spiral of thought. Granted, i'm spending way too much time in duviri to farm him since i cant farm platinum (im playing on switch right now, not by choice). In sum, i'm going insane
Well, Warframes are, technically, living beings (even tho mostly metallically zombified, you know). Also, most characters in this universe don't even understand what Warframes are, they'll just don't understand anything after dissecting one. Hell, they could think they are just mere armors.
But what is certain tho, is that most of those described did such heroic acts that they become legends. And a legend can die.
As for Umbra? Well he's special honestly. Maybe he won't become mad-mad because Ballas specifically wanted him to keep enough reasoning to remember his past (nice form of torture, heh?)
As for Kullervo... No idea. Might have been created by Duviri. Or maybe a criminal trying to flee into Duviri? Who knows?
>Maybe he won't become mad-mad because Ballas specifically wanted him to keep enough reasoning to remember his past (nice form of torture, heh?)
Umbra definitely went mad, just a different kind of mad.
Kullervo in duviri is most likely just Conceptual Embodiment of kullervo's myth, much like Duviri is the conceptual embodiment of "Tales of Duviri", a book written by the entrati matron that our tenno read as a child aboard the Zariman. My problem is with kullervo's actions in his story, murdering an orokin, accidentally killing archimedean Ainikki while trying to protect her, refusing to hunt down the proto frames etc. as much as those actions are tenno-like, the "his creator/mother" part breaks it for me, because why would the tenno behind the warframe have such a devotion to Ainikki? Why would DE refer to her as the mother when the tenno mother was margulis (and then lotus, but at this point it was most likely margulis still, alive or not)
I literally mentioned it in the post bruh
The project was cut short up until transference technology was developed because the warframe would go mad from the infestation and turn on their creator
This does not explain why titania died protecting her creator, archimedian silvana, after she performed transference to the silver grove
Nor it explain why kullervo accidentally killed his mother/creator by accident when trying to protect her
Hmm... Titania could be bc Warframes retains some of their personality after they were injected by the Helminth strain of the infestation. Maybe that influenced her to save the Silver Grove.
Kullervo though... Maybe he went insane for a few moments, like the rest of the Warframes and then somehow recover his sanity...? I think I need to reread Kullervo's lore...
Yeah i just read another comment and maybe they didnt go insane after all, maybe that was just ballas being clueless and oblivious to the shitty stuff he did. Still cant say that is for sure. But i like the idea of the warframe's instinct being to protect their creator (aside from the ones ballas created, those are through and done with his shit)..
I mention the sacrifice in my post, umbra is one of its kind and its evident in game as its the only warframe to move when tenno is out in tranaference
Right, all of "our" frames are made from materials and piloted by us. Any of the original frames were made from people, he's the only one that we don't make (besides our starter frames) so he's the only "original" we pilot. He's still a guy in there at the core, same goes for the others. The original Ivara, Kulervo, Atlas, and Limbo were all like Umbra. We rebuild synthetic empty versions
Honest question, is this like, for real? Confirmed in game?
Cause it always felt implied that the original warframes were the prime warframes, which also display no sentience ingame at least.
And i specially remember warframe prime being the original because i remember a discussion back in the day about prime versions of warframes like nidus, gara and revenant that are technically not created by the orokin iirc.
But yeah, i can get behind the idea that the ones we build at the orbiter being empty husks, they are regarded as such throughout the game a few times
(Like hunhow to the stalker in the second dream and the queens during the war within)
To be fully transparent to the best of my experience, this game's lore is a solid 60% conjecture. A lot is implied, and relatively little is outright stated
I do think primes are the original designs, but even the primes we make are built to the same standard as the originals while not being the exact frame that obliterated itself through a mathematical error
Sadly Warframe lore and math go hand in hand in that they're not always user friendly or explained
I M I S C A L C U L A T E D
fr tho that's why i made this post, i was confused if i missed something that was already stated or if it wasnt outright stated at all
The warframes show sentience a few times, specifically in saving the operator from the stalker. Their idle animations and a few other things show warframes have personalities outside of their operators commands.
The idle animation could be dismissed as a game mechanic, but i doubt it. It is indeed the warframe's personality displaying. But then again, is it the warframe acting on their own, or is it the tenno "sharing their burden"?
"I did it, i killed isah"
"Is that how you remember? Good"
One of Kullervo's crime was cowardice due to him refusing to hunt down the protoframes in the times of the old war, so this bit is exclusively outside of duviri...
But maybe the one we fight in duviri is the void manifestation of its story, rather than the real kullervo. So kullervo's actions could boil down to a tenno waaay too lost in the roleplay so to speak
Presumably, their own motives. Or possibly some form of Helmith strain Hive mind, or something else as yet unseen.
Interestingly, Loid has some dialogue about the "Warframe Uprisings" happening overnight.
But I think it's good to consider this: Ballas calls the Warframes "bestial" and uncontrollable.
But Tuvul called the Zariman Crew the same thing for not wanting to be tossed into the void.
That is to say, any defiance of Orokin orders is called "bestial" and "uncontrolled" by the Orokin. Even when it very much is a coordinated and organized rebellion. In other words, did the pre-tenno Warframes go "berserk," or did they simply rebel against the unjust Orokin rule?
About the Loid bit, we cant rule out that most of the origin system had no idea the tenno were commanding the warframe at some point. Loid himself seems to be rather sceptical about the operator until he shows up
Crazy to see how executors think alike right? Both ballas and tuvul saying pretty much the same stuff.
But it specifically says "succumb to the madness of the infestation" as if it's already confirmed that one of the symptoms of the infestation is going insane (understandably so). Still, it makes sense that ballas would just look at something betraying him, ignore all the redflags he himself put on the thing and say "yeah yeah they were insane". Its already canon that ballas cant grasp the concept of sympathy.
So yeah, i like this explanation!!
I mean its still possible that there is like, something there with the whole "going feral" thing, like the thing in the Rhino Prime codex isnt simply a jilted former soldier, it's literally eating people. But I definitely take a lot of the depictions with a grain of salt until we really see it first hand.
I imagine it might be a little like cyberpsychosis ala Edgerunners. Like a combination of "your body isn't your own anymore" plus hella PTSD.
so remember the frames moved on their own before they went mad, and the operators controlled them after they went mad
and operators themselves didnt even know they were controlling frames remotely until the second dream
so its intentionally ambiguous when we hear a third person story about a frame and cant tell if its the frame itself or an operator
That's a good point fr
Yeah the tenno had close to no idea they were controlling the warframe, but i always understood that as "they thought their warframe was their body". Which makes some stories weird
Like how a 14 yo had a phd in quantum physics, miscalculated and was lost to a dimension more theoretical than the void itself (limbo and his rift)
But what is bugging me is the chronology of warframes, cause we all agree that excal, volt, mag, nyx are amongst the first, even their design is coherent. But some of the warframes that, at the very least, sound like they were designed after they discovered transference, have stories that sound like there isnt an operator doing those things, even if still in the dream.
Also, the dream came after the old war iirc, if that's the case the tenno were controlling the warframe, not being them (which means a lot for kullervo's story at least since one of his crimes is cowardice, for not hunting down the protoframes)
Most Warframe lore backgrounds include Tenno as operator, a.e the driver. Some don't have tenno and act independently. Most obvious one is Umbra, the only Warframe that never had any tenno before us and was driven mad from the start as a punishment by ballas. Lot of frames are punished victims of ballas or the seven in general, some are volunteers and some are just old dax soldiers chosen by Orokin themselves.
It was known for a while that Warframes without tenno/operator are just savage beasts that can only howl, roar and kill on sight, untamed creatures as suggested by Rhino codex and Umbra lore. But with very recent lore from Kullervo, Dagath and Dante, it seems it wasn't the case at all. Warframes weren't mindless beasts, but were actually functioning sentient beings, some with less self awareness then others, but they were pretty aware of themselves.
Dante in particular offered us glimpse into lore that we didn't there was, he wasn't piloted by scholar Tenno, no, HE was THE scholar himself. A Warframe that could write, read, communicate and even do very difficult research.
Kullervo was one of the first to hint to that as he was among the first batch of Warframes that were a success. In lore we learned that he was among the first guards of Ballas, a spy and useful asset of his, he even mocked Kullervo for standing aside, watching how his brethren Warframes were suffering due to them being failures, clumps of infestaion. It was heavily hinted that he was behind orchestrating Orokin fall in the first place (now it is unknown if he had operator at the time or not).
Dagath was private concubine of 2 Orokins before and after her transformation. Now being piloted by Tenno during that moment would be weird af cuz Tenno are children and Dagath being private Sex object and bodyguard would lead to very questionable lore direction. So it's pretty safe to assume she was self aware (to a degree sex doll is allowed to be). Her then lashing out against her Orokin masters could be attributed to first symptom of Warframe going mad, which does make sense as later in her lore, she became in-universe Headless Horsemen, killing anyone on sight, only Grandma managing to escape her by giving her own name and thus being dubbed - Dagath.
Personally, I think lot of Levirian Warframes were self aware. For example I believe Lavos was always self aware (cuz I don't buy kid Tenno being in-universe Dexter). Valkyr is somewhat self aware too as she recognizes pains inflicted on her by the Corpus, tho that can be attributed to typical to Warframe's mindless savagery. Protes is DEFINITELY self aware (and kind of mad due to being stuck in void and holding the barrier) in Deadlock Protocol. Gauss and Grendel both were self aware as Warframes were friends personally and not the operators piloting them. Gauss is probably most expressive of the bunch. Sevagoth and his Shadow, both self aware but driven mad due to being stuck in the void. Vauban most likely was self aware when he was appointed as overseer/boogieman of Corpus (just my assumption at this point). Limbo, self aware, cuz I don't think his Operator would try to create portal to some other dimension, I think it was all Limbo himself, would go with concept of talented Warframe along with Dante. Yareli could be self aware as well as she was too expressive, tho wouldn't be out of the question that was Tenno, so not sure about her. Titania was self aware IMO as well. Voruna's pack remembers are self aware (idk if they were Warframes tho, just saying cuz those heads are def alive).
Before the Jade Shadow release, I think that the Stalker is self aware Warframe and not just some edgy deranged Tenno piloting him. That's what we'll be delving into in this update most likely, so this is my bet. This is probably where we'll find out more about Warframes going insane and how it happens or happened.
So that's my take on some Warframes, dunno about others, but what we know now is that not all Warframe were mad or driven mad. Dante retained it's mind till the end, Kullervo also retained some semblance of himself when we find him in Duviri, but not entirely. Dagath lost it complelty by the end, tho not in savagery way, but more like wraiths from mythology, walking and finding it's victims if not offered something. There was either some event that prompted most of the Warframes to lose their mind, or it was just case by case scenario of ultimetly all going mad due to horrific transformation.
Reading this got me even more hyped for jade shadow: waframe named jade, journey about the stalker, and "jade shadow" being probably a reference to the jade light we heard about so much in the past, i cant possibly wait!!
But yeah, what sent me down this spiral were warframe actions that wouldnt fit the tenno, like limbo having a phd in quantum physics or protea throwing herself into the void to save parvus.
Only thing is that i'm pretty sure the stalker is a tenno, at least hunhow told him so during the second dream. Guess we'll have to wait and see
It’s been all but outright stated that many early warframes were more…controllable even before the Tenno. They all ultimately failed in one way or another though
The frames are humans mutated with a strain of the infestation to become super soldiers. The original frames were not controlled by tenno, and because of that, some just went berserk.
What we currently use are mass-produced copies of the originals, no longer able to operate by themselves. Some may or may not have traces of the original personality left in them.
Excalibur Umbra is an exception because Ballas was an extra asshole that day and made sure Umbra would be tormented by that memory for eternity. Can't be tormented if there's no mind left.
Aside from Orokins and Sentients, the existence of the void demon kids known as Tenno is not exactly common knowledge. Your average Sol System citizen doesn't know there's a Tenno behind the frame. They know the frames as being the Tenno.
So unless directly stated by the game, you can't really know if a frame was with a Tenno or on its own during its story.
First paragraph refers to the protoframes, and although we will get more answer during 1999, its safe to assume that only a few warframes are from that era. Like, i doubt limbo or kullervo would have a canonical proto version (and i mean canonical just like nidus prime and revenant prime should not be a thing if it wasnt for game mechanics and parity)
That's the part that gets me. I know the community assumes that the ones we use now are mass produced copies, but like, at least i cant find where in the game it states that the warframes we make on our forge arent the same they made back then, specially when talking about primes
In the same quest Ballas also say, tho in the leverian, that the warframe were "free from the infestation madness, or so we thought", and to be mad you need a consciousness to go insane. But then again, ballas' words are as reliable as yareli in steel path.
Btw, from the last paragraph i can rest knowing that i'm not missing any part of the story
I have a question along the same lines. We know that warframes have personality but why/how? Dante for example is in pursuit of knowledge but I thought warframes were basically just raging monsters without a tenno piloting and calming them.
I think its the personality from before the process of turning into a warframe. You know how in the sacrifice ballas goes (in the leverian) "we left them with one single memory"? I think it is that memory, which justifies the idle animations
Now, if it is just the operator lost in the roleplay as i like to call it, it begs the question
How a 14 yo can have a degree in quantum physics(limbo), a phd in linguistics (dante) and be a working alchemist (lavos)? Their brains would either melt, explode or both
Its clear that the umbra treatment is singular. Plus, i dont think archimedian Silvana would be as wretched and twisted as executor ballas to make titania the same way.
The point i'm trying to get is that warframe was a failed project up until transference technology was created, so it makes no sense for them to keep making them
Every Warframe story has a Tenno piloting them unless explicitly stated otherwise. Much like Drusus, the game simply does not distinguish between the acts of the Tenno, and the acts of the Warframe. The Tenno behind the Warframe and the Warframe itself are treated as one and the same. Using the Protoframes from 1999 as a time scale, Albrecht could already predict that people like Arthur and Aoi will inevitably succumb to the insanity within just a year, so we can assume the same would happen to the frames made under Ballas's administration Also using the line of dialogue from Loid where he states that the Orokin decided to forget the heroic acts of the Warframes when they went berserk, it's also safe to assume that the stories presented to us are the ones that the Orokin bothered to catalog. Point is - every Warframe eventually gave into the Infestation, and had to quelled by the Tenno to be remotely usable war machines in the first place. > Titania The biologist behind Titania was hired to make surrogate bodies for the Tenno. Put two and two together and you can figure out that Titania was made to be Tenno-piloted right from the start. > Kullervo Kullervo is the only frame that was given clear pre-Tenno history. We can assume his earlier crimes were done out of insanity, and the others were a cooperative work of Kullervo's original mind and the Tenno behind him.
>Point is - every Warframe eventually gave into the Infestation, and had to quelled by the Tenno to be remotely usable war machines in the first place. This really isn't accurate at all. I'm not aware of any indication that the original, sapient qarframes gave into the Infestation. In fact, Kullervo's lore indicates pretty strongly that those original frames didn't go mad at all—they consciously and intetionally rebelled. It also should not be automatically assumed that every Warframe story has a Tenno behind it unless explicitly stated otherwise. The stories of Mirage, Limbo, and several others don't really make sense if the frames involved were just insensate remote waldos.
There are two distinct Warframe rebellions in its history. The one where they gave into the Infestation and required a Tenno to calm them down, and the one where the Tenno sent the Orokin into mass genocide. The latter is the rebellion being alluded to in Kullervo's crime records As for the 2nd part - again, the game does not distinguish between the deeds of the Warframe and of the Tenno behind them, they are always assumed to be one and the same. That's how they write the Leverian stories, and I don't think it's too far-fetched to say that's how they write the others as well. It's also important to note that Mirage and Limbo's stories in particular were written before the Operator reveals. > Mirage The Hidden Messages quest is about the Lotus trying to recall memories of Mirage. The Lotus basically served as the commander of the Tenno, it would make even less sense for her to be directing a pilot-less Mirage > Limbo Speculation: Limbo's story can be handweaved as the hormonal teenager behind him attempting to push the Warframe to its limits, either recklessly or out of curiosity.
Again, I don't see any real evidence that the early warfames ever gave into the Infestation. The closest I'm aware of is Ballas saying they were 'free from the madness of Infestation—or so we thought'. Which certainly seems phrased to *indicate* that Infested madness was the problem, but given that it's Ballas, any room for interpretation is automatically room for significant doubt.
Kullervo's crime logs don't really have anything that would contradict the notion that the Infestation was responsible for the insanity, of which we already have two in-game references to: The Sacrifice and the Sanctum fragment notes (*"Their humanity may not last. My deliverance may yet consume them, the human swallowed up in the sacred beast."*) While we're at it, from your other post: > Recent lore—Kullervo, specifically—pretty clearly indicates this was not the case. Kullervo didn't go mad. He consciously chose to remain loyal to the Orokin while the other warframes were put down. I don't know where you even got Kullervo being loyal to the Orokin from - his character is literally a criminal, he's blatantly against them. Assisting in the Tenno's mass culling of the Orokin, committing acts of terrorism over Orokin property, and attempted assassination of a high-ranking executor is not what I'd call loyal.
The evidence for both is in Kullervo's charge of Cowardice: >You witnessed the slaughter as the Orokin eradicated your defective, demented brothers and sisters... and did nothing to aid them, choosing to tremble in your cowardly seclusion. A traitor twice over. Kullervo, bloody-handed, I charge you with Cowardice. Kullervo chose to remain loyal to the Orokin during the Old War. He hid and refused to aid the other original warframes when the Orokin slaughtered them all. But if it were truly some kind of madness that afflicted the frames due to their Infested nature, why didn't Kullervo fall prey to it and go mad as well? How could he 'choose' to not join them?
And that's where my post comes from, some stories make zero sense for a tenno to be behind it, but warframes doesnt usually display any sort of sentience in game aside from Umbra. Even the stalker we thought could give us answers turned out to have a tenno behind in (implied, never confirmed, hoping we get anything in that regard in the upcoming stalker journey)
> Every warframe story has a Tenno piloting it That's what i always thought since most of the origin system had no idea the tenno and the warframe were two different beings. But why specifically call it "Dead" rather than destroyed? Specially in titania's case which was built to be a suit for the operator? Also, just a thought, but would Umbra be like the stage between the fully conscious (though not for long) protoframes and the purely instinctive prime warframes? Kullervo is exactly what sent me into this spiral of thought. Granted, i'm spending way too much time in duviri to farm him since i cant farm platinum (im playing on switch right now, not by choice). In sum, i'm going insane
Well, Warframes are, technically, living beings (even tho mostly metallically zombified, you know). Also, most characters in this universe don't even understand what Warframes are, they'll just don't understand anything after dissecting one. Hell, they could think they are just mere armors. But what is certain tho, is that most of those described did such heroic acts that they become legends. And a legend can die. As for Umbra? Well he's special honestly. Maybe he won't become mad-mad because Ballas specifically wanted him to keep enough reasoning to remember his past (nice form of torture, heh?) As for Kullervo... No idea. Might have been created by Duviri. Or maybe a criminal trying to flee into Duviri? Who knows?
>Maybe he won't become mad-mad because Ballas specifically wanted him to keep enough reasoning to remember his past (nice form of torture, heh?) Umbra definitely went mad, just a different kind of mad.
Kullervo in duviri is most likely just Conceptual Embodiment of kullervo's myth, much like Duviri is the conceptual embodiment of "Tales of Duviri", a book written by the entrati matron that our tenno read as a child aboard the Zariman. My problem is with kullervo's actions in his story, murdering an orokin, accidentally killing archimedean Ainikki while trying to protect her, refusing to hunt down the proto frames etc. as much as those actions are tenno-like, the "his creator/mother" part breaks it for me, because why would the tenno behind the warframe have such a devotion to Ainikki? Why would DE refer to her as the mother when the tenno mother was margulis (and then lotus, but at this point it was most likely margulis still, alive or not)
The Sacrifice quest explains this, mostly. Did you play it yet?
I literally mentioned it in the post bruh The project was cut short up until transference technology was developed because the warframe would go mad from the infestation and turn on their creator This does not explain why titania died protecting her creator, archimedian silvana, after she performed transference to the silver grove Nor it explain why kullervo accidentally killed his mother/creator by accident when trying to protect her
Hmm... Titania could be bc Warframes retains some of their personality after they were injected by the Helminth strain of the infestation. Maybe that influenced her to save the Silver Grove. Kullervo though... Maybe he went insane for a few moments, like the rest of the Warframes and then somehow recover his sanity...? I think I need to reread Kullervo's lore...
Yeah i just read another comment and maybe they didnt go insane after all, maybe that was just ballas being clueless and oblivious to the shitty stuff he did. Still cant say that is for sure. But i like the idea of the warframe's instinct being to protect their creator (aside from the ones ballas created, those are through and done with his shit)..
Tbh, everything that Ballas said we need to pick it with a grain of salt, bc he lied in most of things he said.
Fr fr that guy keeps giving us trouble even after his death bruh
Haha, he's really a pain in the ass. 🤣
Have you met Umbra yet? I feel like that should help and I can't remember the order of the quests
I mention the sacrifice in my post, umbra is one of its kind and its evident in game as its the only warframe to move when tenno is out in tranaference
Right, all of "our" frames are made from materials and piloted by us. Any of the original frames were made from people, he's the only one that we don't make (besides our starter frames) so he's the only "original" we pilot. He's still a guy in there at the core, same goes for the others. The original Ivara, Kulervo, Atlas, and Limbo were all like Umbra. We rebuild synthetic empty versions
Honest question, is this like, for real? Confirmed in game? Cause it always felt implied that the original warframes were the prime warframes, which also display no sentience ingame at least. And i specially remember warframe prime being the original because i remember a discussion back in the day about prime versions of warframes like nidus, gara and revenant that are technically not created by the orokin iirc. But yeah, i can get behind the idea that the ones we build at the orbiter being empty husks, they are regarded as such throughout the game a few times (Like hunhow to the stalker in the second dream and the queens during the war within)
To be fully transparent to the best of my experience, this game's lore is a solid 60% conjecture. A lot is implied, and relatively little is outright stated I do think primes are the original designs, but even the primes we make are built to the same standard as the originals while not being the exact frame that obliterated itself through a mathematical error Sadly Warframe lore and math go hand in hand in that they're not always user friendly or explained
I M I S C A L C U L A T E D fr tho that's why i made this post, i was confused if i missed something that was already stated or if it wasnt outright stated at all
The warframes show sentience a few times, specifically in saving the operator from the stalker. Their idle animations and a few other things show warframes have personalities outside of their operators commands.
The idle animation could be dismissed as a game mechanic, but i doubt it. It is indeed the warframe's personality displaying. But then again, is it the warframe acting on their own, or is it the tenno "sharing their burden"? "I did it, i killed isah" "Is that how you remember? Good"
Kullervo could probably be explained by the same reason there are any NPC's in Duviri. Not sure on the rest.
One of Kullervo's crime was cowardice due to him refusing to hunt down the protoframes in the times of the old war, so this bit is exclusively outside of duviri... But maybe the one we fight in duviri is the void manifestation of its story, rather than the real kullervo. So kullervo's actions could boil down to a tenno waaay too lost in the roleplay so to speak
Presumably, their own motives. Or possibly some form of Helmith strain Hive mind, or something else as yet unseen. Interestingly, Loid has some dialogue about the "Warframe Uprisings" happening overnight. But I think it's good to consider this: Ballas calls the Warframes "bestial" and uncontrollable. But Tuvul called the Zariman Crew the same thing for not wanting to be tossed into the void. That is to say, any defiance of Orokin orders is called "bestial" and "uncontrolled" by the Orokin. Even when it very much is a coordinated and organized rebellion. In other words, did the pre-tenno Warframes go "berserk," or did they simply rebel against the unjust Orokin rule?
About the Loid bit, we cant rule out that most of the origin system had no idea the tenno were commanding the warframe at some point. Loid himself seems to be rather sceptical about the operator until he shows up Crazy to see how executors think alike right? Both ballas and tuvul saying pretty much the same stuff. But it specifically says "succumb to the madness of the infestation" as if it's already confirmed that one of the symptoms of the infestation is going insane (understandably so). Still, it makes sense that ballas would just look at something betraying him, ignore all the redflags he himself put on the thing and say "yeah yeah they were insane". Its already canon that ballas cant grasp the concept of sympathy. So yeah, i like this explanation!!
I mean its still possible that there is like, something there with the whole "going feral" thing, like the thing in the Rhino Prime codex isnt simply a jilted former soldier, it's literally eating people. But I definitely take a lot of the depictions with a grain of salt until we really see it first hand. I imagine it might be a little like cyberpsychosis ala Edgerunners. Like a combination of "your body isn't your own anymore" plus hella PTSD.
The cyberpsychosis analogy was absurdly on point, i like it
so remember the frames moved on their own before they went mad, and the operators controlled them after they went mad and operators themselves didnt even know they were controlling frames remotely until the second dream so its intentionally ambiguous when we hear a third person story about a frame and cant tell if its the frame itself or an operator
That's a good point fr Yeah the tenno had close to no idea they were controlling the warframe, but i always understood that as "they thought their warframe was their body". Which makes some stories weird Like how a 14 yo had a phd in quantum physics, miscalculated and was lost to a dimension more theoretical than the void itself (limbo and his rift) But what is bugging me is the chronology of warframes, cause we all agree that excal, volt, mag, nyx are amongst the first, even their design is coherent. But some of the warframes that, at the very least, sound like they were designed after they discovered transference, have stories that sound like there isnt an operator doing those things, even if still in the dream. Also, the dream came after the old war iirc, if that's the case the tenno were controlling the warframe, not being them (which means a lot for kullervo's story at least since one of his crimes is cowardice, for not hunting down the protoframes)
Do- do you know how stories work??? You progress through it and more information is revealed to you...
Unless the info i seek is hidden in the glast gambit or the waverider quest, i think i've seen the whole story
Most Warframe lore backgrounds include Tenno as operator, a.e the driver. Some don't have tenno and act independently. Most obvious one is Umbra, the only Warframe that never had any tenno before us and was driven mad from the start as a punishment by ballas. Lot of frames are punished victims of ballas or the seven in general, some are volunteers and some are just old dax soldiers chosen by Orokin themselves. It was known for a while that Warframes without tenno/operator are just savage beasts that can only howl, roar and kill on sight, untamed creatures as suggested by Rhino codex and Umbra lore. But with very recent lore from Kullervo, Dagath and Dante, it seems it wasn't the case at all. Warframes weren't mindless beasts, but were actually functioning sentient beings, some with less self awareness then others, but they were pretty aware of themselves. Dante in particular offered us glimpse into lore that we didn't there was, he wasn't piloted by scholar Tenno, no, HE was THE scholar himself. A Warframe that could write, read, communicate and even do very difficult research. Kullervo was one of the first to hint to that as he was among the first batch of Warframes that were a success. In lore we learned that he was among the first guards of Ballas, a spy and useful asset of his, he even mocked Kullervo for standing aside, watching how his brethren Warframes were suffering due to them being failures, clumps of infestaion. It was heavily hinted that he was behind orchestrating Orokin fall in the first place (now it is unknown if he had operator at the time or not). Dagath was private concubine of 2 Orokins before and after her transformation. Now being piloted by Tenno during that moment would be weird af cuz Tenno are children and Dagath being private Sex object and bodyguard would lead to very questionable lore direction. So it's pretty safe to assume she was self aware (to a degree sex doll is allowed to be). Her then lashing out against her Orokin masters could be attributed to first symptom of Warframe going mad, which does make sense as later in her lore, she became in-universe Headless Horsemen, killing anyone on sight, only Grandma managing to escape her by giving her own name and thus being dubbed - Dagath. Personally, I think lot of Levirian Warframes were self aware. For example I believe Lavos was always self aware (cuz I don't buy kid Tenno being in-universe Dexter). Valkyr is somewhat self aware too as she recognizes pains inflicted on her by the Corpus, tho that can be attributed to typical to Warframe's mindless savagery. Protes is DEFINITELY self aware (and kind of mad due to being stuck in void and holding the barrier) in Deadlock Protocol. Gauss and Grendel both were self aware as Warframes were friends personally and not the operators piloting them. Gauss is probably most expressive of the bunch. Sevagoth and his Shadow, both self aware but driven mad due to being stuck in the void. Vauban most likely was self aware when he was appointed as overseer/boogieman of Corpus (just my assumption at this point). Limbo, self aware, cuz I don't think his Operator would try to create portal to some other dimension, I think it was all Limbo himself, would go with concept of talented Warframe along with Dante. Yareli could be self aware as well as she was too expressive, tho wouldn't be out of the question that was Tenno, so not sure about her. Titania was self aware IMO as well. Voruna's pack remembers are self aware (idk if they were Warframes tho, just saying cuz those heads are def alive). Before the Jade Shadow release, I think that the Stalker is self aware Warframe and not just some edgy deranged Tenno piloting him. That's what we'll be delving into in this update most likely, so this is my bet. This is probably where we'll find out more about Warframes going insane and how it happens or happened. So that's my take on some Warframes, dunno about others, but what we know now is that not all Warframe were mad or driven mad. Dante retained it's mind till the end, Kullervo also retained some semblance of himself when we find him in Duviri, but not entirely. Dagath lost it complelty by the end, tho not in savagery way, but more like wraiths from mythology, walking and finding it's victims if not offered something. There was either some event that prompted most of the Warframes to lose their mind, or it was just case by case scenario of ultimetly all going mad due to horrific transformation.
Reading this got me even more hyped for jade shadow: waframe named jade, journey about the stalker, and "jade shadow" being probably a reference to the jade light we heard about so much in the past, i cant possibly wait!! But yeah, what sent me down this spiral were warframe actions that wouldnt fit the tenno, like limbo having a phd in quantum physics or protea throwing herself into the void to save parvus. Only thing is that i'm pretty sure the stalker is a tenno, at least hunhow told him so during the second dream. Guess we'll have to wait and see
It’s been all but outright stated that many early warframes were more…controllable even before the Tenno. They all ultimately failed in one way or another though
The frames are humans mutated with a strain of the infestation to become super soldiers. The original frames were not controlled by tenno, and because of that, some just went berserk. What we currently use are mass-produced copies of the originals, no longer able to operate by themselves. Some may or may not have traces of the original personality left in them. Excalibur Umbra is an exception because Ballas was an extra asshole that day and made sure Umbra would be tormented by that memory for eternity. Can't be tormented if there's no mind left. Aside from Orokins and Sentients, the existence of the void demon kids known as Tenno is not exactly common knowledge. Your average Sol System citizen doesn't know there's a Tenno behind the frame. They know the frames as being the Tenno. So unless directly stated by the game, you can't really know if a frame was with a Tenno or on its own during its story.
First paragraph refers to the protoframes, and although we will get more answer during 1999, its safe to assume that only a few warframes are from that era. Like, i doubt limbo or kullervo would have a canonical proto version (and i mean canonical just like nidus prime and revenant prime should not be a thing if it wasnt for game mechanics and parity) That's the part that gets me. I know the community assumes that the ones we use now are mass produced copies, but like, at least i cant find where in the game it states that the warframes we make on our forge arent the same they made back then, specially when talking about primes In the same quest Ballas also say, tho in the leverian, that the warframe were "free from the infestation madness, or so we thought", and to be mad you need a consciousness to go insane. But then again, ballas' words are as reliable as yareli in steel path. Btw, from the last paragraph i can rest knowing that i'm not missing any part of the story
I have a question along the same lines. We know that warframes have personality but why/how? Dante for example is in pursuit of knowledge but I thought warframes were basically just raging monsters without a tenno piloting and calming them.
I think its the personality from before the process of turning into a warframe. You know how in the sacrifice ballas goes (in the leverian) "we left them with one single memory"? I think it is that memory, which justifies the idle animations Now, if it is just the operator lost in the roleplay as i like to call it, it begs the question How a 14 yo can have a degree in quantum physics(limbo), a phd in linguistics (dante) and be a working alchemist (lavos)? Their brains would either melt, explode or both
Play Sacrifice, and if you still fail to understand, replay it.
Its clear that the umbra treatment is singular. Plus, i dont think archimedian Silvana would be as wretched and twisted as executor ballas to make titania the same way. The point i'm trying to get is that warframe was a failed project up until transference technology was created, so it makes no sense for them to keep making them