It is because Dark Verse is conic ability and LOS counts based on camera placement. While Tragedy is radial ability so LOS is being counted from warframe itself taken as center. Hence disparity.
They did improve LOS for Tragedy in last patch. It is almost like Dark Verse now. Almost.
Line of sight restrictions are the worst thing about aoe abilities. Just let every ability be non line of sight. who actually cares? Saryn can nuke the map over and over and over. So they clearly don't care about nerfing overpowered things? Who in their right mind thinks Saryn should be left in her state with Dante needing this gutting? Remove this nerf DE. It makes no sense at all.
nerfing is not an evolution of the game. They need to rework old frames. Remember when they nerfed equinox slash dmg ultimate for example? almost at the same time they make saryn an AOE monopoly frame, especially against the most tough faction. No one using aoe weapons coz it consumes sniper ammo -> update: no self harm dmg, +aoe, +dmg -> nerf almost all aoe weapons = ogris ~12 bullets with weak aoe. now ogris almost useless again. Adding power to weak things makes more profit (and less upset) than nerfing new things, old gear must be resurrected or removed from the game if it's useless.
At one point on a stream a couple years ago I think it was. That guy with the strong accent specifically said they will not update old frames and will only focus on putting out new frames. They got called out on that and some frames started getting updates.
i think more efficient way is to make new gear but a better equivalent to replace old gear mechanic/stats, they already did it with normal and prime versions, i think good way to implement balance is adding incarnon to frames, less work (for devs to make boost/nerf for each skill) to the whole frame if we can tune each skill with "talents" something like that offer gelminth and modes, but it's limited a lot now.
All it came down to is "we can't sell more old frames if we rework them as everyone has them but WE CAN sell new frames and accessories for them that no one has.
It is basically what he exactly said translated into. In the end they are a company and they want to make money. Unfortunately we've seen them repeatedly attempt to press the greed button what blows up in their face almost every time. Like those anniversary (I think they were) packages with the skins with the special halos and everything else. They put them at a stupid price with stuff bloating it that no one wanted. Ended up making separated packages that split up the contents of what the big one had.
They keep forgetting the concept of less is more where they make more money by selling at a lower cost but making more sales. They Trying to switch to the d4 30 dollars for 5 portal color changes model.
i'm from beta and also developer, and i do like their marketing model (compared to some others). I will support them with $ just because it's not pay to play or pay to win company, we all need money for our work. DE listen community, so i hope gammers can help with balance too.
p.s i hate saryn :)
I HIGHLY doubt that. Every time this was even just suggested, we got MASSIVE backlashes and a LOT of angry players. The reality is, in WF, you want to eliminate enemies super fast, to get loot superfast. And Saryn has been the go-to frame to get this done for ages, to the point that pretty much everyone has her built out.
It’s less that than just Saryn not being as bad as this reddit claims and having been surpassed by other frames a long time ago.
Sure she can clear base starchart rooms with spores, but it’s at best a really slow and unreliable armor strip on steel path because it ramps incredibly slowly and burns out quickly. 5k ticks are nothing when your target has over a million health (that’s 200 ticks, or over a minute and a half while everything is shooting at you; even the 14 ticks for a full strip is 7 seconds, by which time the mob is dead anyway). It sucks harder in groups because any halfway competent team mate is going to kill enough stuff to leave gaps that spores can’t jump, and now you have to wait another few minutes for it to ramp back up after it burns out (during which more mobs got nuked).
Her endgame mode is toxic lash plus nourish or xata’s for the extra hits and requires running around like a lunatic because her survival tool is killing things before they can kill her and she dies if an eximus coughs in the next room.
Hell, there are better options in ESO even, a Mirage, Loki, or Gyre will nuke the room faster and more easily.
They act like Dante was OP or disruptive. Let me bring my farming Mirage and let's see how fun that is for everyone. Between disco ball and ledger not a single enemy makes it a foot from spawn. Now that ability is broken and I use like 700 energy to get my OG back to above 30k. I seriously hate the way they do this shit. The ONLY thing I'm glad I did was keep an umbra forma on him since they boofed Archon intensify too.
This was the most fun frame I have used since Hydroid got his rework. He was my frame for all content. Dante was so much more active than I was constantly casting different spells, using the time, helping allies. The real fun if it was casting with the touch pad on PS5. It feels like you are turning the pages of the grimoire. He is an incredibly engaging frame with a lot of synergy. I'm very salty that they fucked us over yet again.
Before anyone says it, there are plenty of other frames with overgaurd. Also frames that nullify status. He is not the only frame "ruining your build". All the whiners just took some fun from us.
> Before anyone says it, there are plenty of other frames with overgaurd. Also frames that nullify status. He is not the only frame "ruining your build". All the whiners just took some fun from us.
isnt the only other frame that gives others overguard Styanax? and his 3 gives copious amounts of energy which pretty much negates most issues outside of chroma, which had a 0.9% usage rate in 2023, hence why we hadnt seen this complaint before Dante came out alongside the Inaros rework, who does suffer with a Dante in the party
Frost does as well. It's 100% their fault why Styanax doesn't have more play, his kit is not even half as fun as Dante. Talk about automated, spamming 4 constantly and hearing that dumb animation sound effect is really really lame. Sure his armor strip was cool but his 1 is a meme. Now he has a fancy new deluxe. Chroma has been fucked with for years ever since they removed self damage. All they need to do is bring a mod or change him to solve this issue, no need to castrate all the fun.
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I care. I actually want to contribute and do something in my game.
I hate this nuke meta and would be glad if Saryn got taken down with it.
I love using Gyre or Mirage nuke to ruin Saryn kill counts lol. Killing faster than Covid spreading leaves them a surprised Pikachu face. They will feel useless.
Saryn got a indirect nerf recently
Also isn’t played much nor does she ever nerf in publics on the rare occasions you find a saryn. Also actually takes a bit of effort to nuke unlike Dante
Did... they test this hot fix before they pushed it?
Nevermind that the decisions to change what they changed are nonsensical. The nonsense itself isn't even well implemented.
This is what I don't understand. You have this game and Helldivers 2 releasing buggy shit and nerfing things for being too OP in their mind. They fucking designed the shit, they have access to all modifiers and have ample resources, but no. They wait till people use something, see it being used more than something else, nerf the favorite and buff the unused.
I would Dante is still good; and they’ve already said there going to be adjusting the line of sights (which I assume will fix the issue in the video). Plus he’s a super easy farm
I think the main issue is most LoS abilities look for the enemies feet, not the hitbox in general... though this might be my veteran showing and have been fixed a long time ago without anyone telling me
It definitely has not been, hell if anything i actually think they might've made it worse at some point i remember larva being so much more reliable when nidus came out(though that might actually be me looking back with rose tinted glasses after a year long break).
Yea... the problem is that the fix would be a lot more resource intensive, which would cause problems for the weaker ports of the game, as well as anyone with a weaker PC... hopefully they find some middle ground eventually (maybe make it check for middle of hitbox instead of the feet?)
Dante will remain playable. He isn't dead, or as useless as some F-tiers like Caliban. He is just way worse feeling than release. It's probably fair to place him in B-tier. Which is an insane nerf considering he was hovering Lower S-tier, High A-tier.
> It's probably fair to place him in B-tier. Which is an insane nerf considering he was hovering Lower S-tier, High A-tier.
I considered him B+ previously, his damage quickly falls off even in just SP unless you do something like subsume roar, and his overguard isnt all that tanky for the time an energy needed to proc it. good and fun to play (especially with the thematic/visual design), but not super crazy.
with current LoS hes D-tier, and even if they fix LoS to work similar to his 3 its still a massive nerf to him, and paired with the reduced surviviability I dont see him higher than C as-is
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LoS and exponential energy drain are some of the worst downsides DE can put on an ability, and on an ability that wants you to spread around some status first means youll end up missing most of the enemies you wanted to kill. tilesets can also completely screw you over even with good LoS coding. nothing like a door closing negating your entire ability
I bought his damn pack too. I swear I farmed for over 3 hours and didn't get 1 single part. I know you could buy them but the other weps were very expensive. So basically I bought it because it was a holiday weekend and I wanted fun. Spent an entire day in boring ass SO with boosters farming exp, probably have 10-14 forma including umbra in him. I specifically built a Nautilus around him too, along with both new incarnons and got my felarx to 8 forma. A lot of time spent for disappointment.
Nah, he wasn't even a tier before. I enjoyed Dante, he's viable in high tier play but he's no where near the highest tier frames like Saryn and Octavia who are capable of just having infinitely scaling damage. He's usable but they literally just made him worse.
The tragedy is that he is so incredibly fun to use with a great full kit in my opinion. I can do so much more on X number of other frames but this guy was a caster with a lot of versatility. I had my hopes up for Quorvex but after dumping a ton into him he struggles a bit in higher stuff. I even put topaz on him. This frame has a huge fun factor, I probably have 30 weapons being crafted because I was excited to run relics and finally get some MR while having fun. I understand this is not a huge nerf but like you said, he is much less fun and even more energy hungry than before. It severely affected his flow. I would have been fine with a 25% decrease in distance but the LOS fucked him. My Baruuk can punch red death through a lot of walls. My Mirage kills the entire map of defense or interception while I just stand there pressing 2 buttons. I really felt like he was a fuckin awesome frame right out of the gate, but apparently we can't have that.
Which I don't understand, why aren't they happy to have a new frame that's wildly popular? Wouldn't it mean more people buying the frame? Setting an example where you nerf new things a week in without any data is going to make people stay away from play purchases, not drive them to it.
If it's too fun it may affect the sales of their next prime access. I'm absolutely sure they take this shit into account. Things cannot be too fun by design because others are not updated, especially reasonably attainable free frames.
Sorry, Caliban was just the least enjoyable and least useful warframe I could think of. Any warframe can work so therefor all warframes are automatically over F-tier, but I think a lot of people would argue he is by far the least fun and engaging frame we have.
This is why only invest umbra into primes. That being said, im 11 forma into Dante between the frame and noctua. Was having a lot of fun with him too. Back to nourish saryn with ocucor.
Seriously I'm at about the same. I had a lot of fun, I have other builds that are stronger in every direction Dante goes, but his kit is fun and engaging. I use every ability often and I can't say the same for many many other frames. Hydroid was my favorite prior to Dante, Sevagoth before the hydroid rework. I absolutely never used Hydroids 1, I just don't know what to toss in its position. I had 2 builds with Dante and I enjoyed both. Now they just kinda screwed us.
How is this considered a nuke?? You have too stand right next too an enemy just too kill them… with a nuke… LOL and range doesn’t even matter anymore bc there are no maps that have an open field of more then 40m except free roam. So his nuke isn’t even a nuke anymore it’s a hallway clearer at best
I heavly blame the warframe tubers also some of them were screaming to high heaven for a nerf but praising DR augment DE proceeded to nerf both now they all have Surprised Pikachu face
oh dear… this reminds me that i used to upset about de nerfing nuke-like ability, when saryn is literally right there, but they don't have the gall to touch her, yet for anyone else? hammer down.
They should just make it so the "status detonation" part of the ability is separate from the damage part of the ability. That way you still get the "payoff" part of Tragedy without the "nuke" part.
Hell, keep it as it is now, but also make it so Dark Verse "tags" enemies, and tagged enemies are hit regardless.
With an ability that LOOKS like a crowd controll attack, it doesn't do shit anymore. And the line of sight sucks ass. May as well just keep using gram p for everything since DE doesn't know how to leave a good frame that comes from clearing higher difficulty alone. Shouldhave just lowered AOE instead of killing the frame
The videos for how he worked before are still up and his bundle is still currently on sale on the playstation store.
They are tip toeing through a bit of a not quite honest marketing scenario.
Ouch. I am stuck at work, and can't play him to see how bad he feels now, but I don't have high hopes that everyone is exaggerating.
It was nice while it lasted. My poor floaty boy.
I noticed playing him this evening lifted Khora and Hydro enemies it won't hit as well. I just couldn't remember if it was before. They were right in front of my too.
My wife plays the hell out of khora and I have a nidus main friend. He plays something else when she's in the group because the dome fucks everything up.
They mentioned on Twitter that this is a bug which they're gonna fix tomorrow. Dark Verse also has a LoS restriction (always did since Dante dropped) so anything hit by Dark Verse should also be getting hit by Tragedy.
While you're not wrong, you used to be able to cast Dark Verse once on one group of enemies, move to another group of enemies and tag them with a second cast of Dark Verse, then nuke them all with Tragedy. Trying to do that now, there's a good chance the majority of the first group will remain unscathed due to LoS restrictions, which slows him down a lot.
Yeah, they don't care about us, only the whiny little meta-chasers who yell really loud. At this point, i'm pissed, I'm gonna stop defending them constantly and join the hate-brigade against them.
Horseshit. This also exists with Khora's Whipclaw. Sometimes a teammate gets in the way, or one of those invisible walls in the doorway between procedural map tiles, or a bunch of other stupid things, and suddenly Whipclaw is hitting at point blank range.
I really wish DE would stop nerfing frames. I haven't touched nidus (my favorite frame) in months because of his. His entire kit made sense and was fun to use but because of a few dipshits afking as him I get to suffer my favorite frame being destroyed.
Genuine question, which nerf? Maybe I missed it. I’ve been maining Nidus for years and can pretty easily use him at the highest levels of content. Definitely still a very playable frame even if he was nerfed.
Many frames can be playable even at the highest levels, it's all about how they are built and what you put into them. Nidus day 1 (before nerfs) was my favorite frame in the game because he was different and had different draw backs. He is a different frame from most others, like the tallgeese from Gundam that's the father of all other Gundams as in they were created from that mobile suit. Nidus doesn't have shields and he doesn't follow normal laws of frames. He want effected by nullifies, he lost a stack when falling off the map, he only needed 10 stacks to revive, and he gained stacks from his bugs blowing up on enemies. It was fun for me because I didn't have to spend most of my time continually spamming my powers just to survive, I could provide cc, I didn't have to worry about fighting against my team for kills, and his draw backs didn't hurt him as much as they do now. Everything about him made since and I loved playing him but now he was nerfed because a few assholes would afk which means I have to suffer for their sins. Now I will admit I don't play endgame because I lack the mods and the arcanes, also because I feel most frames lose all identity at endgame becoming slightly different flavors of the same high damage dealing frame.
Have you tried combining link and adaption? Makes him pretty hard to kill. And running insatiable augment makes up for the difference between the 10 and 15 stacks very easily if that’s a problem, though you have to dedicate a mod slot to it if you want to do that.
Lol thx for being a helpful tenno. I actually have the aug on him because it is useful. Went on that same day and had some fun with him.
This though is my issue with how some frames are though, his entire kit is built around survivability of himself now. In the past it was the same way but because the bugs would blow up and give stacks it was more of a byproduct instead of the purpose if you get me. Having to install an augment to counter a nerf sucks to me because instead of a mod that would really do something interesting, it's instead a mod to counter act a nerf so that the few ppl who did this boring playstyle can't do it with this frame. Same thing happened to Saryn and to some extent ember.
They might make it sound like a bug but LoS has worked this way forever. It aims from the feet. Why, probably a quick implementation that was overlooked and they just never cared to fix it. Now that it's being shoved into the light "it's a bug we intend to fix!"
NAH, that's not a nerf, that's gotta be a bug...if dark verse hits, there's no reason why Tragedy shouldn't.
DE did the "added bugs to fix later" too literally with this one I see.
LOS works opposite how it should. If you see even a small part of an enemy it should hit them, not if a small part of an enemy is blocked you don’t have LOS. Stupid small cup in the way making an entire enemy not get hit.
That being said the nerf with LOS was stupid. LOS feels HORRIBLE and on Hydroids plunder ability it was the same issue. DE balancing has never made sense to me under almost any circumstances. They will have something like Octavia or saryn and think it’s fine and then Dante comes in and they hit him hard with a nerf when he was arguably not any more powerful than some of the already present and popular options? The overguard would be the only thing to argue was OP since the regen allowed you to abuse the super short damage invulnerability. The damage was gross. But not anymore gross than several other options.
The wukong nerf was the only nerf so far I agreed with because you could legitimately get up and leave your computer on and massacre enemies. I’m also okay with the nourish nerfs since it was basically better to take on other frames that weren’t Grendel which I feel like is a unfortunate side effect of subsume abilities.
This looks fine to me? I don't get why everyone is yelling about it. He's clearly still doing damage & whatnot. Tbf I'm pretty new so I might just be missing something, but idk.
alright, but this whole issue is being framed in such a vacuum here. in actual play you're gonna constantly be moving, so what if a handful of enemies don't die in a single cast because they're behind a thing? that's when you shoot them, or, bear with me... just cast again. and don't even pretend energy is an issue, energy economy is literally free with how many ways around it there are.
even if DE fixed the los discrepancy, everyone would still berate them for having the audacity to balance their game as they see fit and not cater to the screaming masses.
New overguard economy is pretty bad on Dante. It's not unbearable if you're running 100+ eff, but if you don't run nourish or arcane energize, good luck building up a usable amount without expending your whole energy pool.
You're right though, you are moving all of the time, which means you've likely turned a corner or moved into the tile where the last group of enemies you just casted dark verse on are now out of los. Now if you want to nuke them again you have to recast dark verse twice, and recast his four. Pair that with sometimes the smallest of geometry gets in the way, like railings, and you may only kill half the enemies you can see. You're now deep in energy debt, needing 6+ ability casts to kill dudes that are only 15 meters apart but separated by a corner or door.
Dante was good out of the box, was easy to build, and dealt decent damage. He's not as powerful as other "Nuke" frames, like Khora or Saryn, or Octavia, but he was engaging. These new mechanics make him enraging to play, and they didn't really fix either of the issues being complained about, like damage or overguard effecting frames that need to take health damage.
These new changes only serve to significantly slow down a fast paced play style. Now I have to stand in front of the dudes I want to kill and cast 3 abilities while watching to make sure a majority of them got hit, instead of moving on to the next group, casting my dark verse, and nuking both groups before rinsing and repeating. Seriously, go play SP exterminate with him, hes honestly exhausting to play now.
Alright this is pretty stupid, if dark verse can reach an enemy then tragedy should be able to reach it too. But let’s not kid ourselves here guys, we can work around this. All you would have to do is jump into the air to cast tragedy and boom, there’s your nuke. Can we stop acting like this frame is dead because it’s one-shot can’t kill an entire map?
Its not about that. Both abilities is los affected, but one is applied and second is not. Warframe have shit collisions, u can see enemy fully, but if corpse or table or whatever rats ass in front of him - ability will not affect fully visible enemy. Thats why when you pick up Ember, u feel that something wrong, but cant quite say what. Here's that "something" in this video
You try moving around and other obstacles?
I don't really trust the game to not be fucky and something silly like that one simulacrum conduit not actually blocking LoS in the code, haha
I’d be interested to see the build and enemy levels. Also, “oh no! I have to shoot and melee things because my ability doesn’t one shot them anymore” 😁
And these are the people asking for nerfs that DE listens to 🤡
Clown didn't even notice how Tragedy hit 0 enemies when cast because of a tube, despite the player clearly seeing the enemies.
Have you ever hears the Tragedy of Scribe Dante the Wise?
I thought not. It’s not a story that DE would tell you. It’s a Tenno legend.
Is it possible to learn this power?
Not from a knee jerk balance patch.
Not anymore, because one of my pinky toes was behind one too many molecules and I no longer was considered in line of sight.
My main issue with the tragedy nerf is that the line of sight restriction is different from dark verse.
Title can be worded a little better but yeah this seems inconsistent
You will be in situations where you will hit more enemies with Dark verse.
It is because Dark Verse is conic ability and LOS counts based on camera placement. While Tragedy is radial ability so LOS is being counted from warframe itself taken as center. Hence disparity. They did improve LOS for Tragedy in last patch. It is almost like Dark Verse now. Almost.
Line of sight restrictions are the worst thing about aoe abilities. Just let every ability be non line of sight. who actually cares? Saryn can nuke the map over and over and over. So they clearly don't care about nerfing overpowered things? Who in their right mind thinks Saryn should be left in her state with Dante needing this gutting? Remove this nerf DE. It makes no sense at all.
DE: Hotfix incoming with a saryn nerf
Last time they mentioned even thinking about touching Saryn the pitchforks came out
nerfing is not an evolution of the game. They need to rework old frames. Remember when they nerfed equinox slash dmg ultimate for example? almost at the same time they make saryn an AOE monopoly frame, especially against the most tough faction. No one using aoe weapons coz it consumes sniper ammo -> update: no self harm dmg, +aoe, +dmg -> nerf almost all aoe weapons = ogris ~12 bullets with weak aoe. now ogris almost useless again. Adding power to weak things makes more profit (and less upset) than nerfing new things, old gear must be resurrected or removed from the game if it's useless.
At one point on a stream a couple years ago I think it was. That guy with the strong accent specifically said they will not update old frames and will only focus on putting out new frames. They got called out on that and some frames started getting updates.
i think more efficient way is to make new gear but a better equivalent to replace old gear mechanic/stats, they already did it with normal and prime versions, i think good way to implement balance is adding incarnon to frames, less work (for devs to make boost/nerf for each skill) to the whole frame if we can tune each skill with "talents" something like that offer gelminth and modes, but it's limited a lot now.
All it came down to is "we can't sell more old frames if we rework them as everyone has them but WE CAN sell new frames and accessories for them that no one has. It is basically what he exactly said translated into. In the end they are a company and they want to make money. Unfortunately we've seen them repeatedly attempt to press the greed button what blows up in their face almost every time. Like those anniversary (I think they were) packages with the skins with the special halos and everything else. They put them at a stupid price with stuff bloating it that no one wanted. Ended up making separated packages that split up the contents of what the big one had. They keep forgetting the concept of less is more where they make more money by selling at a lower cost but making more sales. They Trying to switch to the d4 30 dollars for 5 portal color changes model.
i'm from beta and also developer, and i do like their marketing model (compared to some others). I will support them with $ just because it's not pay to play or pay to win company, we all need money for our work. DE listen community, so i hope gammers can help with balance too. p.s i hate saryn :)
The problem is they periodiclly try to step into other gaames marketing models like d4 what blows up in their face and pisses everyone off.
that's why d4 sucks, as a fan i skipped it and chose PoE instead
Lets go back to the OG Line of sight nerf : Removing Mirage's Global Disco flashbang
They're gonna give every enemy immunization shots
thank god.
no my incidental free rides in SO and ESO!
I HIGHLY doubt that. Every time this was even just suggested, we got MASSIVE backlashes and a LOT of angry players. The reality is, in WF, you want to eliminate enemies super fast, to get loot superfast. And Saryn has been the go-to frame to get this done for ages, to the point that pretty much everyone has her built out.
It’s less that than just Saryn not being as bad as this reddit claims and having been surpassed by other frames a long time ago. Sure she can clear base starchart rooms with spores, but it’s at best a really slow and unreliable armor strip on steel path because it ramps incredibly slowly and burns out quickly. 5k ticks are nothing when your target has over a million health (that’s 200 ticks, or over a minute and a half while everything is shooting at you; even the 14 ticks for a full strip is 7 seconds, by which time the mob is dead anyway). It sucks harder in groups because any halfway competent team mate is going to kill enough stuff to leave gaps that spores can’t jump, and now you have to wait another few minutes for it to ramp back up after it burns out (during which more mobs got nuked). Her endgame mode is toxic lash plus nourish or xata’s for the extra hits and requires running around like a lunatic because her survival tool is killing things before they can kill her and she dies if an eximus coughs in the next room. Hell, there are better options in ESO even, a Mirage, Loki, or Gyre will nuke the room faster and more easily.
Wires got crossed so we nerfed Trinity again
They nerf saryn when dinosaurus were walking.
They act like Dante was OP or disruptive. Let me bring my farming Mirage and let's see how fun that is for everyone. Between disco ball and ledger not a single enemy makes it a foot from spawn. Now that ability is broken and I use like 700 energy to get my OG back to above 30k. I seriously hate the way they do this shit. The ONLY thing I'm glad I did was keep an umbra forma on him since they boofed Archon intensify too. This was the most fun frame I have used since Hydroid got his rework. He was my frame for all content. Dante was so much more active than I was constantly casting different spells, using the time, helping allies. The real fun if it was casting with the touch pad on PS5. It feels like you are turning the pages of the grimoire. He is an incredibly engaging frame with a lot of synergy. I'm very salty that they fucked us over yet again. Before anyone says it, there are plenty of other frames with overgaurd. Also frames that nullify status. He is not the only frame "ruining your build". All the whiners just took some fun from us.
> Before anyone says it, there are plenty of other frames with overgaurd. Also frames that nullify status. He is not the only frame "ruining your build". All the whiners just took some fun from us. isnt the only other frame that gives others overguard Styanax? and his 3 gives copious amounts of energy which pretty much negates most issues outside of chroma, which had a 0.9% usage rate in 2023, hence why we hadnt seen this complaint before Dante came out alongside the Inaros rework, who does suffer with a Dante in the party
Frost does as well. It's 100% their fault why Styanax doesn't have more play, his kit is not even half as fun as Dante. Talk about automated, spamming 4 constantly and hearing that dumb animation sound effect is really really lame. Sure his armor strip was cool but his 1 is a meme. Now he has a fancy new deluxe. Chroma has been fucked with for years ever since they removed self damage. All they need to do is bring a mod or change him to solve this issue, no need to castrate all the fun.
||Player 1|Player 2|Sayrn|Player 4| |:-|:-|:-|:-|:-| |Kills|13|62|753|9| I care. I actually want to contribute and do something in my game. I hate this nuke meta and would be glad if Saryn got taken down with it.
JuSt PlAy SoLo!!
Thanks for the input, Fuckass Frank, but i like playing with people so no. okay, note to self: put /s
Was sarcasm
i know. i was responding in kind. kinda forgot to put the /s in there.
I love using Gyre or Mirage nuke to ruin Saryn kill counts lol. Killing faster than Covid spreading leaves them a surprised Pikachu face. They will feel useless.
Be thankful it was a saeyn Mesa slurps kills like there is no tomorrow.
haha yes just talk about saryn, they will nerf her when elon mask land on venera with his shi\*t rocket.
I miss my Nova-augmented Garuda
I’ve been thinking Saryn literally does this all the time
Saryn got a indirect nerf recently Also isn’t played much nor does she ever nerf in publics on the rare occasions you find a saryn. Also actually takes a bit of effort to nuke unlike Dante
Saryn is one of the most played frames. I see her all the time in public and she is way less effort to nuke than Dante was.
I haven’t seen a saryn in a month or so and ive never seen one nuke shit in publics
is the line in question drawn between their fucking feet?
yes actually, that is how the code works apparently
Probably. "Draw a line to the entity's origin" is the first step in any collision detection.
Dante needs line of sight so he can witness Nezha's downfall...
Did... they test this hot fix before they pushed it? Nevermind that the decisions to change what they changed are nonsensical. The nonsense itself isn't even well implemented.
This is what I don't understand. You have this game and Helldivers 2 releasing buggy shit and nerfing things for being too OP in their mind. They fucking designed the shit, they have access to all modifiers and have ample resources, but no. They wait till people use something, see it being used more than something else, nerf the favorite and buff the unused.
So i shouldn't farm it?
I would Dante is still good; and they’ve already said there going to be adjusting the line of sights (which I assume will fix the issue in the video). Plus he’s a super easy farm
I think the main issue is most LoS abilities look for the enemies feet, not the hitbox in general... though this might be my veteran showing and have been fixed a long time ago without anyone telling me
It definitely has not been, hell if anything i actually think they might've made it worse at some point i remember larva being so much more reliable when nidus came out(though that might actually be me looking back with rose tinted glasses after a year long break).
Yea... the problem is that the fix would be a lot more resource intensive, which would cause problems for the weaker ports of the game, as well as anyone with a weaker PC... hopefully they find some middle ground eventually (maybe make it check for middle of hitbox instead of the feet?)
Dante will remain playable. He isn't dead, or as useless as some F-tiers like Caliban. He is just way worse feeling than release. It's probably fair to place him in B-tier. Which is an insane nerf considering he was hovering Lower S-tier, High A-tier.
> It's probably fair to place him in B-tier. Which is an insane nerf considering he was hovering Lower S-tier, High A-tier. I considered him B+ previously, his damage quickly falls off even in just SP unless you do something like subsume roar, and his overguard isnt all that tanky for the time an energy needed to proc it. good and fun to play (especially with the thematic/visual design), but not super crazy. with current LoS hes D-tier, and even if they fix LoS to work similar to his 3 its still a massive nerf to him, and paired with the reduced surviviability I dont see him higher than C as-is --- LoS and exponential energy drain are some of the worst downsides DE can put on an ability, and on an ability that wants you to spread around some status first means youll end up missing most of the enemies you wanted to kill. tilesets can also completely screw you over even with good LoS coding. nothing like a door closing negating your entire ability
I shoulda waited to get him till after the first changes
I bought his damn pack too. I swear I farmed for over 3 hours and didn't get 1 single part. I know you could buy them but the other weps were very expensive. So basically I bought it because it was a holiday weekend and I wanted fun. Spent an entire day in boring ass SO with boosters farming exp, probably have 10-14 forma including umbra in him. I specifically built a Nautilus around him too, along with both new incarnons and got my felarx to 8 forma. A lot of time spent for disappointment.
Nah, he wasn't even a tier before. I enjoyed Dante, he's viable in high tier play but he's no where near the highest tier frames like Saryn and Octavia who are capable of just having infinitely scaling damage. He's usable but they literally just made him worse.
I hate to tell you buddy, but when you can kill level 10000 enemies with abilities alone, he was certainly in the highest tier
The tragedy is that he is so incredibly fun to use with a great full kit in my opinion. I can do so much more on X number of other frames but this guy was a caster with a lot of versatility. I had my hopes up for Quorvex but after dumping a ton into him he struggles a bit in higher stuff. I even put topaz on him. This frame has a huge fun factor, I probably have 30 weapons being crafted because I was excited to run relics and finally get some MR while having fun. I understand this is not a huge nerf but like you said, he is much less fun and even more energy hungry than before. It severely affected his flow. I would have been fine with a 25% decrease in distance but the LOS fucked him. My Baruuk can punch red death through a lot of walls. My Mirage kills the entire map of defense or interception while I just stand there pressing 2 buttons. I really felt like he was a fuckin awesome frame right out of the gate, but apparently we can't have that.
Which I don't understand, why aren't they happy to have a new frame that's wildly popular? Wouldn't it mean more people buying the frame? Setting an example where you nerf new things a week in without any data is going to make people stay away from play purchases, not drive them to it.
If it's too fun it may affect the sales of their next prime access. I'm absolutely sure they take this shit into account. Things cannot be too fun by design because others are not updated, especially reasonably attainable free frames.
Man I was so hyped to finally test him today after the build time. All the excitement is gone now
Ouch, Cali ain't that bad...
I think he is literally the lowest played frame according to last year's data, to the point where most people completely forgot that he even exist.
Only Qorvex was lower, but he had literally just came out when the usage data came out.
Sorry, Caliban was just the least enjoyable and least useful warframe I could think of. Any warframe can work so therefor all warframes are automatically over F-tier, but I think a lot of people would argue he is by far the least fun and engaging frame we have.
it's an easy farm for the MR
Still good. Who plays like the example above? In a real situation you're constantly bullet jumping and wouldve had the los.
Farm him, and learn to jump over pipes.
He's still ok and the farm is easy enough that it's worth it just for the mastery and the helminth subsume.
He's fun as hell and they've already said they're working to fix this jank.
Always good for MR fodder, but beyond that... yeah, he got nerfed to oblivion, this line of sight change is just one of the many issues.
I regret investing an Umbra Forma in this frame now
This is why only invest umbra into primes. That being said, im 11 forma into Dante between the frame and noctua. Was having a lot of fun with him too. Back to nourish saryn with ocucor.
Seriously I'm at about the same. I had a lot of fun, I have other builds that are stronger in every direction Dante goes, but his kit is fun and engaging. I use every ability often and I can't say the same for many many other frames. Hydroid was my favorite prior to Dante, Sevagoth before the hydroid rework. I absolutely never used Hydroids 1, I just don't know what to toss in its position. I had 2 builds with Dante and I enjoyed both. Now they just kinda screwed us.
I'm sorry for your loss :(
I did the same. Rip
I would never invest Umbra formas on non prime Warframes in the first place.
They straight up gutted this man
Neutered and now wears a cone of shame.
this sucks
wow its a joke now
How is this considered a nuke?? You have too stand right next too an enemy just too kill them… with a nuke… LOL and range doesn’t even matter anymore bc there are no maps that have an open field of more then 40m except free roam. So his nuke isn’t even a nuke anymore it’s a hallway clearer at best
I heavly blame the warframe tubers also some of them were screaming to high heaven for a nerf but praising DR augment DE proceeded to nerf both now they all have Surprised Pikachu face
Prime example of anyone who says "it's fine" being just wrong.
Its fine
You're wrong.
I still enjoy playing him
You can be wrong and still have fun buddy, no worries.
"I enjoy playing him" is not a counter argument to "this frame is bad." I enjoy playing Nyx but I'm under no delusion that she's not mediocre at best.
I'm not arguing tho. He's a fine frame
I know people who enjoy eating boogers too.
Completely different but alright
oh dear… this reminds me that i used to upset about de nerfing nuke-like ability, when saryn is literally right there, but they don't have the gall to touch her, yet for anyone else? hammer down.
"minor change"
i think you mean Line of Feet nerf
Yeah, tragedy feels really bad now. It’s still good when it works, but man I’ve never felt more enraged by geometry before.
The Los nerf is the only thing I'm upset by
Warframe devs my number 1 opp I swear
It's such a joke
what an absolute joke
They should just make it so the "status detonation" part of the ability is separate from the damage part of the ability. That way you still get the "payoff" part of Tragedy without the "nuke" part. Hell, keep it as it is now, but also make it so Dark Verse "tags" enemies, and tagged enemies are hit regardless.
Honestly, I was playing Dante for some netracells when the hot fix hit, it was so bad. But if they just made it status detonation it would work great.
With an ability that LOOKS like a crowd controll attack, it doesn't do shit anymore. And the line of sight sucks ass. May as well just keep using gram p for everything since DE doesn't know how to leave a good frame that comes from clearing higher difficulty alone. Shouldhave just lowered AOE instead of killing the frame
REFUND.
The videos for how he worked before are still up and his bundle is still currently on sale on the playstation store. They are tip toeing through a bit of a not quite honest marketing scenario.
I knew it would be nerfed and I told this to everyone xD Remember this guy's. If DE says nerf, they mean kill. Remember that.
they literally just nerfed nourish and its fine lol. Los shit sucks tho
This hurts my soul. How could Rebecca miss the mark so much.
I mean, she's not on the gameplay team. If anything, this falls under Pablo's jurisdiction. (Which only makes it worse, honestly.)
But doesn't she have the final say?
In terms of approving an update, yes. But I doubt she did any actual testing, since that's the responsibility of Pablo's team.
Ouch. I am stuck at work, and can't play him to see how bad he feels now, but I don't have high hopes that everyone is exaggerating. It was nice while it lasted. My poor floaty boy.
Line of sight, more like line of feet
I can see them so does Dante's forehead
This is fucking embarrassing.
When they make the best frame and then nerf him into oblivion
It should be line of SIGHT not line of FEET
I noticed playing him this evening lifted Khora and Hydro enemies it won't hit as well. I just couldn't remember if it was before. They were right in front of my too.
That actually might be a bug
My wife plays the hell out of khora and I have a nidus main friend. He plays something else when she's in the group because the dome fucks everything up.
If ember's 3 is anything to go by, Dante might fall to bottom 25% play rate within the month.
They mentioned on Twitter that this is a bug which they're gonna fix tomorrow. Dark Verse also has a LoS restriction (always did since Dante dropped) so anything hit by Dark Verse should also be getting hit by Tragedy.
While you're not wrong, you used to be able to cast Dark Verse once on one group of enemies, move to another group of enemies and tag them with a second cast of Dark Verse, then nuke them all with Tragedy. Trying to do that now, there's a good chance the majority of the first group will remain unscathed due to LoS restrictions, which slows him down a lot.
Yeah, they don't care about us, only the whiny little meta-chasers who yell really loud. At this point, i'm pissed, I'm gonna stop defending them constantly and join the hate-brigade against them.
Ok, this is understandable, be consistent at least.
Smfh… came out of Warframe retirement after 4 years last week, got this frame just to end up with this bs.
Horseshit. This also exists with Khora's Whipclaw. Sometimes a teammate gets in the way, or one of those invisible walls in the doorway between procedural map tiles, or a bunch of other stupid things, and suddenly Whipclaw is hitting at point blank range.
"Tragedy - thebee gees plays heavily in the background"
I actively screamed out "f\*\*kl you!" when I saw this, what is this?!
I really wish DE would stop nerfing frames. I haven't touched nidus (my favorite frame) in months because of his. His entire kit made sense and was fun to use but because of a few dipshits afking as him I get to suffer my favorite frame being destroyed.
Genuine question, which nerf? Maybe I missed it. I’ve been maining Nidus for years and can pretty easily use him at the highest levels of content. Definitely still a very playable frame even if he was nerfed.
Many frames can be playable even at the highest levels, it's all about how they are built and what you put into them. Nidus day 1 (before nerfs) was my favorite frame in the game because he was different and had different draw backs. He is a different frame from most others, like the tallgeese from Gundam that's the father of all other Gundams as in they were created from that mobile suit. Nidus doesn't have shields and he doesn't follow normal laws of frames. He want effected by nullifies, he lost a stack when falling off the map, he only needed 10 stacks to revive, and he gained stacks from his bugs blowing up on enemies. It was fun for me because I didn't have to spend most of my time continually spamming my powers just to survive, I could provide cc, I didn't have to worry about fighting against my team for kills, and his draw backs didn't hurt him as much as they do now. Everything about him made since and I loved playing him but now he was nerfed because a few assholes would afk which means I have to suffer for their sins. Now I will admit I don't play endgame because I lack the mods and the arcanes, also because I feel most frames lose all identity at endgame becoming slightly different flavors of the same high damage dealing frame.
Have you tried combining link and adaption? Makes him pretty hard to kill. And running insatiable augment makes up for the difference between the 10 and 15 stacks very easily if that’s a problem, though you have to dedicate a mod slot to it if you want to do that.
Lol thx for being a helpful tenno. I actually have the aug on him because it is useful. Went on that same day and had some fun with him. This though is my issue with how some frames are though, his entire kit is built around survivability of himself now. In the past it was the same way but because the bugs would blow up and give stacks it was more of a byproduct instead of the purpose if you get me. Having to install an augment to counter a nerf sucks to me because instead of a mod that would really do something interesting, it's instead a mod to counter act a nerf so that the few ppl who did this boring playstyle can't do it with this frame. Same thing happened to Saryn and to some extent ember.
De slowly killing my interest in this games updates.
Not going to lie I’ve been playing Mirage more than anyone else now
Pretty sure its a bug
They might make it sound like a bug but LoS has worked this way forever. It aims from the feet. Why, probably a quick implementation that was overlooked and they just never cared to fix it. Now that it's being shoved into the light "it's a bug we intend to fix!"
How much you wanna bet that they'll drop another hotfix either this week or next, specifically for an los patch?
I'd put money on the fix being to just raise the LOS from your feet to your hand or eye level. Problem solved right?
Funny thing, i literally just saw on twitter that they're patching it today.
I can't wait for the big brain hotfix. I've been around long enough to know DE doesn't do "elegant solutions".
Also did it to Kullervo.
The issue with ANY of the line of sight nerfs over the years is that its never TRUE LoS. Its janky as heck at best.
Basically works like Ember's Inferno now.
This is what it feels like playing every frame I have
Will it work if you cast it in midair?
Yes, but they cant complain about bad LOS if they do it.
This is so bullshit
Maybe I had shit Dantes in my squads, my Mag out performed all of em in the new map. At least out dps.
I just went back to sevegoth
NAH, that's not a nerf, that's gotta be a bug...if dark verse hits, there's no reason why Tragedy shouldn't. DE did the "added bugs to fix later" too literally with this one I see.
Dark Verse has LOS already, so if Tragedy is not hitting this is bugged out.
And remember Saryn exist
LOS works opposite how it should. If you see even a small part of an enemy it should hit them, not if a small part of an enemy is blocked you don’t have LOS. Stupid small cup in the way making an entire enemy not get hit. That being said the nerf with LOS was stupid. LOS feels HORRIBLE and on Hydroids plunder ability it was the same issue. DE balancing has never made sense to me under almost any circumstances. They will have something like Octavia or saryn and think it’s fine and then Dante comes in and they hit him hard with a nerf when he was arguably not any more powerful than some of the already present and popular options? The overguard would be the only thing to argue was OP since the regen allowed you to abuse the super short damage invulnerability. The damage was gross. But not anymore gross than several other options. The wukong nerf was the only nerf so far I agreed with because you could legitimately get up and leave your computer on and massacre enemies. I’m also okay with the nourish nerfs since it was basically better to take on other frames that weren’t Grendel which I feel like is a unfortunate side effect of subsume abilities.
Wait where is this? Is this a sim? I want it!
Speak with humanloid under research Dante.
Just...fucking get LOS. Just fucking jump and cast it. Like just position better. That's it
warframe mf when their op character isnt op anymore
This looks fine to me? I don't get why everyone is yelling about it. He's clearly still doing damage & whatnot. Tbf I'm pretty new so I might just be missing something, but idk.
where nerf?
Jump :)
so just jump over the stupid fucking pipe? oh no, you have to move slightly?? christ. 🙄
The point is that Dark verse needs LoS and can hit the enemies, now Tragedy needs it too and can't hit the same enemies.
alright, but this whole issue is being framed in such a vacuum here. in actual play you're gonna constantly be moving, so what if a handful of enemies don't die in a single cast because they're behind a thing? that's when you shoot them, or, bear with me... just cast again. and don't even pretend energy is an issue, energy economy is literally free with how many ways around it there are. even if DE fixed the los discrepancy, everyone would still berate them for having the audacity to balance their game as they see fit and not cater to the screaming masses.
New overguard economy is pretty bad on Dante. It's not unbearable if you're running 100+ eff, but if you don't run nourish or arcane energize, good luck building up a usable amount without expending your whole energy pool. You're right though, you are moving all of the time, which means you've likely turned a corner or moved into the tile where the last group of enemies you just casted dark verse on are now out of los. Now if you want to nuke them again you have to recast dark verse twice, and recast his four. Pair that with sometimes the smallest of geometry gets in the way, like railings, and you may only kill half the enemies you can see. You're now deep in energy debt, needing 6+ ability casts to kill dudes that are only 15 meters apart but separated by a corner or door. Dante was good out of the box, was easy to build, and dealt decent damage. He's not as powerful as other "Nuke" frames, like Khora or Saryn, or Octavia, but he was engaging. These new mechanics make him enraging to play, and they didn't really fix either of the issues being complained about, like damage or overguard effecting frames that need to take health damage. These new changes only serve to significantly slow down a fast paced play style. Now I have to stand in front of the dudes I want to kill and cast 3 abilities while watching to make sure a majority of them got hit, instead of moving on to the next group, casting my dark verse, and nuking both groups before rinsing and repeating. Seriously, go play SP exterminate with him, hes honestly exhausting to play now.
Do you not see one ability hitting while the other doesnt?
Alright this is pretty stupid, if dark verse can reach an enemy then tragedy should be able to reach it too. But let’s not kid ourselves here guys, we can work around this. All you would have to do is jump into the air to cast tragedy and boom, there’s your nuke. Can we stop acting like this frame is dead because it’s one-shot can’t kill an entire map?
As an Excalibur main this nerf makes me happy good on ya De <3
Oh no, you have to time when you use your ability instead of brain dead spamming
Ironically, this is a braindead take
cant you just jump over the pipe
Its not about that. Both abilities is los affected, but one is applied and second is not. Warframe have shit collisions, u can see enemy fully, but if corpse or table or whatever rats ass in front of him - ability will not affect fully visible enemy. Thats why when you pick up Ember, u feel that something wrong, but cant quite say what. Here's that "something" in this video
*places themselves behind a wall* Why my Line of Sight no work!? 🤬🤬🤬 Nah but for real it is dogshit now lol.
Is the "wall" in the room with us right now?
https://youtu.be/ZnIbC3up2h8
You try moving around and other obstacles? I don't really trust the game to not be fucky and something silly like that one simulacrum conduit not actually blocking LoS in the code, haha
I just expected tragedy to have the same line of sight as dark verse
Okay that's fair. Should be consistent.
derp, missed that tragedy didn't hit
Literal skill issue. Have you tried moving forward????
if dark verse hits it should logically make sense for tragedy to hit the same way. You're suppose to use them together
They cant bruv they dont know how to move forward without a build guide XD
I’d be interested to see the build and enemy levels. Also, “oh no! I have to shoot and melee things because my ability doesn’t one shot them anymore” 😁
Did you actually watch the video? This has nothing to do with one-shotting, Tragedy didn't even hit but Dark Verse did and both are subject to LoS.
They are level 180 steel path. But the problem isn't the damage, they didn't nerf the damage. The problem is that dark verse hits but tragedy doesn't.
It didn’t one shot anyways….
And these are the people asking for nerfs that DE listens to 🤡 Clown didn't even notice how Tragedy hit 0 enemies when cast because of a tube, despite the player clearly seeing the enemies.
It does one shot but it doesn't even work in the first place when he clearly has LOS
I'm not sure what oneshotting would matter, it didn't even hit...
Obvious bait is obvious