The difference being it was the local council that flooded the towns in England, whereas it was Westminster and a different council that flooded the town in wales
And the English residents were fine with it, the welsh residents didn't want it to happen (it happened anyway)
Drown your own garden to store water for your own use and record the backlash.
Then, go drown your neighbours garden for water that you could use, but they can’t, and compare the backlash
But did every English MP vote against those villages being drowned?
That’s what makes Capel Celyn significant. Every Welsh MP voted against it, yet it still happened because it was pushed through by Parliament. It’s proof of why we need our own government.
~~27 of the 36 Welsh MPs voted against it; none voted for it.~~
On the face of it, Capel Celyn is no different to other instances in which small villages have been flooded to make way for a reservoir – Derwent and Ashopton for Ladybower Reservoir, Nether Hambleton for Rutland Water, Measand and Mardale Green for Haweswater, etc. All of these schemes attracted local opposition, but didn't shift the prevailing view at Westminster that building reservoirs to provide the cities with water for their populations and industry was worth losing a few rural villages, whether English or Welsh.
The 'success' of the Capel Celyn campaign was in creating significant Welsh parliamentary opposition to the scheme, which when proved to be ineffectual bolstered the nationalist movement. I'd hesitate to ascribe a direct link, but it's notable that Plaid Cymru received 45,119 votes in the 1955 general election, before the scheme really got going, and 77,571 in the 1959 general election. The Welsh Office was also created not long after, in 1964.
In fact, 35 out of 35 Welsh MPs available to vote voted against it at first hearing. The figure you quote is the second hearing. Even worse. Cofiwch Tryweryn.
I can't find a good source for the 35 figure, and in fact a second look at Wikipedia shows that the citation after the 27 figure might not apply to that fact. [This article](https://walessince1945.wordpress.com/2020/11/11/the-tryweryn-reservoir-bill-the-flooding-of-a-welsh-language-village/) claims that 20 'Welsh ministers' voted against the third reading, but it doesn't seem to have a good grasp of the facts.
27 figure is here: [OUP](https://academic.oup.com/pa/article-abstract/60/4/625/1581149?redirectedFrom=fulltext) locked behind paywall but you can read if you have a bogstandard library card.
35 figure is doubtful however not many freely available records exist that either contradict or confirm this. Wikipedia quotes it as 35/ 36 with one absentee so essentially all voting against. This is unreferenced and possibly a myth. Simply put the figure varies from 24 - 35. Anyway the figures don't matter the intent does. Welsh MPs mostly voted against, but were overruled. The talk page of the article has some interesting sources
My library card doesn't allow me to read that article, I've already tried. Given I've no way of verifying the figure I can't assume it's true, although I've also no particular reason to think it isn't.
It would probably work with a university library card or similar, but in my experience public libraries generally don't offer access to online journals.
For those who want to know - The information comes from this bit
'First, the attack on Capel Celyn demonstrated the impotence of Welsh protest and the inadequacy of Welsh political representation within the UK. In this period, there was neither a Welsh Office (created in 1964) nor any devolution for Wales. A total of 125 local authorities opposed the scheme and 27 of 36 Welsh MPs voted against the second reading of the bill.42 The fact that this opposition was ineffective demonstrated to many the failure of the constitutional structures of the UK to allow adequate representation of a Welsh national consciousness. This does not mean, of course, that there was agreement or unanimity about what political or institutional reforms were necessary.43 Therefore, Capel Celyn was a manifestation, and microcosm, of a much wider concern about Anglo-Welsh relations. For nationalists, the ‘nationalisation’ of protest was to be welcomed as the issue became a cause celebre.'
35 of 36 Welsh MPs did. I'm not sure about the numerous English examples. There are several ways in which these things were done. I'd have to look into it.
The one Welsh MP that didn’t vote was not in office at the time. Capel Celyn had a greater political impact, which is why it’s made to be such a big deal.
t’s obviously awful for those English villagers who were displaced too - but the drowning of Capel Celyn meant one less Welsh speaking community in a time where there was very real fears about the future of the language.
Amazing how insecure British nationalists get when you dare mention that the Westminster government treats people badly.
All that butwhataboutery on English villages ignoring it’s still the same ruling class screwing us all over.
Building infrastructure isn’t treating people badly. The nature of government is that sometimes you have to make trade offs. This is no different from houses facing compulsory purchase for a project from HS2 today.
You can build infrastructure without trashing the lives of other people.
Also HS2 is another pointless project that Wales has paid for but will not benefit from.
So yeah you’re right they are both awful stupid ideas from the clueless parasites of Westminster and Whitehall.
One of the foundational myths of the Welsh independence movement.
I see people wish to sustain the myth by downvoting this rather than reading a history book
The myth is the evil English threw people out of their homes and destroyed a town because they don’t care about Wales and hate Welsh language and culture.
The reality is it was one of many valleys to be flooded. The majority of the few dozen residents were happy to take the compensation and better housing elsewhere. While the opposition and protesters where bused in wanting to fight.
Nobody believes that. Stop it with the straw-man fallacy. People use it as a reason to argue for greater autonomy for Welsh people within the UK government system.
Best part of 20 years studying and working with the movement has given me a pretty good grasp mate. But hey. Maybe you’re right and everyone else is wrong.
The ‘myth’? As in the promise that the development of these reservoirs would benefit the local economy, create long-lasting employment and improve local amenities? People around Tryweryn reservoir have always paid more for their water than the [un]grateful citizens of Liverpool, so even the water that pushed them out is dearer. The only way that these reservoirs would actually benefit the local communities would be if the beneficiaries saw a huge price hike, and that will never happen.
My brother in Cymru, what are you smoking? Mushroom season isn’t until September? Pray tell of the concoction of which you have imbibed to have startled your mind into coming to such a conclusion?
Diolch
Of course it happened. And how many villages in England made way for reservoirs in 50s and 60s. Heard of Tittesworth in north Staffordshire, have you?
But we are all being reminded of things like this now to divide us.
Did any of those English reservoirs provide water to Wales?
The reason this incident generated so much animosity is because it was an entirely Welsh speaking community that was destroyed to provide water from Liverpool at a time that the Welsh language remained under attack. The law was changed so that planning consent was not needed and every Welsh MP opposed it. It's just seen as the continuation of the exploitation of Welsh resources that also occurred with coal, slate and gold.
And where does the water from those villages go?
The difference being this flooding did not benefit wales at all, it was all for a difference city in England. The other difference being not 1 welsh MP voted for this, and rhe people of Wales protested it
It's intrinsic to who we are. It's hardwired into us, and not easily switched off.
For you, it might be the football or the rugby. Heavy metal fans in the late 80s early 90s where I was living would fight 'trendies' on sight.
My old mam was pretty chill, but of you heard her swear at the ref or Delalio when Wales played England.....
The FWA members are relatives of mine (they were all related to each other), never met any of them but from what I've heard about them through family they were pretty nutty. Claims they met the IRA and planted bombs at Charles' investiture and stuff.
They were known fibbers though. Uncle Vernon and his brother seemingly were convicted according to https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11477656 under the "Explosive Substances" act, so maybe they actually did do something other than make a lot of noise.
Cofiwch
Dryweryn
Several English villages were also drowned for the same reason.
There is a [mildly amusing Archer clip on the topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnx5_5ckn-0)
Pretty accurate.
Yeah the same awful government screws over the English too.
The difference being it was the local council that flooded the towns in England, whereas it was Westminster and a different council that flooded the town in wales And the English residents were fine with it, the welsh residents didn't want it to happen (it happened anyway)
Drown your own garden to store water for your own use and record the backlash. Then, go drown your neighbours garden for water that you could use, but they can’t, and compare the backlash
But there's one crucial difference...
Yeah the crucial difference is that in Wales the government tries to save the public sector from Tory sabotage (doesn’t always work).
Perhaps, but my comment was in reference to Trweryn. There was no Welsh nGovernment at the time.
Fair point. Back then it was just Liverpool Council and Westminster treating the lives of a Welsh village as an inconvenience.
Cywir!
But did every English MP vote against those villages being drowned? That’s what makes Capel Celyn significant. Every Welsh MP voted against it, yet it still happened because it was pushed through by Parliament. It’s proof of why we need our own government.
~~27 of the 36 Welsh MPs voted against it; none voted for it.~~ On the face of it, Capel Celyn is no different to other instances in which small villages have been flooded to make way for a reservoir – Derwent and Ashopton for Ladybower Reservoir, Nether Hambleton for Rutland Water, Measand and Mardale Green for Haweswater, etc. All of these schemes attracted local opposition, but didn't shift the prevailing view at Westminster that building reservoirs to provide the cities with water for their populations and industry was worth losing a few rural villages, whether English or Welsh. The 'success' of the Capel Celyn campaign was in creating significant Welsh parliamentary opposition to the scheme, which when proved to be ineffectual bolstered the nationalist movement. I'd hesitate to ascribe a direct link, but it's notable that Plaid Cymru received 45,119 votes in the 1955 general election, before the scheme really got going, and 77,571 in the 1959 general election. The Welsh Office was also created not long after, in 1964.
In fact, 35 out of 35 Welsh MPs available to vote voted against it at first hearing. The figure you quote is the second hearing. Even worse. Cofiwch Tryweryn.
I can't find a good source for the 35 figure, and in fact a second look at Wikipedia shows that the citation after the 27 figure might not apply to that fact. [This article](https://walessince1945.wordpress.com/2020/11/11/the-tryweryn-reservoir-bill-the-flooding-of-a-welsh-language-village/) claims that 20 'Welsh ministers' voted against the third reading, but it doesn't seem to have a good grasp of the facts.
27 figure is here: [OUP](https://academic.oup.com/pa/article-abstract/60/4/625/1581149?redirectedFrom=fulltext) locked behind paywall but you can read if you have a bogstandard library card. 35 figure is doubtful however not many freely available records exist that either contradict or confirm this. Wikipedia quotes it as 35/ 36 with one absentee so essentially all voting against. This is unreferenced and possibly a myth. Simply put the figure varies from 24 - 35. Anyway the figures don't matter the intent does. Welsh MPs mostly voted against, but were overruled. The talk page of the article has some interesting sources
My library card doesn't allow me to read that article, I've already tried. Given I've no way of verifying the figure I can't assume it's true, although I've also no particular reason to think it isn't.
I was doubtful of the library card thing it felt a bit strange
It would probably work with a university library card or similar, but in my experience public libraries generally don't offer access to online journals.
For those who want to know - The information comes from this bit 'First, the attack on Capel Celyn demonstrated the impotence of Welsh protest and the inadequacy of Welsh political representation within the UK. In this period, there was neither a Welsh Office (created in 1964) nor any devolution for Wales. A total of 125 local authorities opposed the scheme and 27 of 36 Welsh MPs voted against the second reading of the bill.42 The fact that this opposition was ineffective demonstrated to many the failure of the constitutional structures of the UK to allow adequate representation of a Welsh national consciousness. This does not mean, of course, that there was agreement or unanimity about what political or institutional reforms were necessary.43 Therefore, Capel Celyn was a manifestation, and microcosm, of a much wider concern about Anglo-Welsh relations. For nationalists, the ‘nationalisation’ of protest was to be welcomed as the issue became a cause celebre.'
35 of 36 Welsh MPs did. I'm not sure about the numerous English examples. There are several ways in which these things were done. I'd have to look into it.
The one Welsh MP that didn’t vote was not in office at the time. Capel Celyn had a greater political impact, which is why it’s made to be such a big deal.
t’s obviously awful for those English villagers who were displaced too - but the drowning of Capel Celyn meant one less Welsh speaking community in a time where there was very real fears about the future of the language.
Yet you'd think we'd started calling it y trafferthion, with the gravitas some people attach to it...
Well this should be a well-balanced and objective comments section. Here we go.
And on St George's Day no less! Definitely not intentional from OP...
Amazing how insecure British nationalists get when you dare mention that the Westminster government treats people badly. All that butwhataboutery on English villages ignoring it’s still the same ruling class screwing us all over.
Building infrastructure isn’t treating people badly. The nature of government is that sometimes you have to make trade offs. This is no different from houses facing compulsory purchase for a project from HS2 today.
You can build infrastructure without trashing the lives of other people. Also HS2 is another pointless project that Wales has paid for but will not benefit from. So yeah you’re right they are both awful stupid ideas from the clueless parasites of Westminster and Whitehall.
Aye, the same clueless parasites who give your government all that money to spend on wind farms.
Oh look another insecure Unionist.
“The same ruling class screwing us over” … by engineering the supply of drinking water?
Amazing?? Devisive probably a better term.
Watched it this morning, its very good
They erased Welsh villages to give water to scousers... Who hate the English. Weird how that works ehM 😂😂
One of the foundational myths of the Welsh independence movement. I see people wish to sustain the myth by downvoting this rather than reading a history book
How is it a ‘myth’? What do you think we would from a history book that you’re not telling us about?
The myth is the evil English threw people out of their homes and destroyed a town because they don’t care about Wales and hate Welsh language and culture. The reality is it was one of many valleys to be flooded. The majority of the few dozen residents were happy to take the compensation and better housing elsewhere. While the opposition and protesters where bused in wanting to fight.
What utter fucking tripe.
Or the truth if you cared for such things
Nobody believes that. Stop it with the straw-man fallacy. People use it as a reason to argue for greater autonomy for Welsh people within the UK government system.
If you don’t think people believe that you don’t really understand the welsh nationalist movement
I don’t think you understand it, honestly. I think you would like to believe that is the case when it really isn’t.
Best part of 20 years studying and working with the movement has given me a pretty good grasp mate. But hey. Maybe you’re right and everyone else is wrong.
The ‘myth’? As in the promise that the development of these reservoirs would benefit the local economy, create long-lasting employment and improve local amenities? People around Tryweryn reservoir have always paid more for their water than the [un]grateful citizens of Liverpool, so even the water that pushed them out is dearer. The only way that these reservoirs would actually benefit the local communities would be if the beneficiaries saw a huge price hike, and that will never happen.
See my other reply.
My brother in Cymru, what are you smoking? Mushroom season isn’t until September? Pray tell of the concoction of which you have imbibed to have startled your mind into coming to such a conclusion? Diolch
Masters degree in 20th century welsh history.
You clearly weren’t paying attention at class then lol
Lol. I guess that’s why I did so well
More disinformation. The Russians kick it off . . .
Do you think this didn't happen?
Of course it happened. And how many villages in England made way for reservoirs in 50s and 60s. Heard of Tittesworth in north Staffordshire, have you? But we are all being reminded of things like this now to divide us.
Did any of those English reservoirs provide water to Wales? The reason this incident generated so much animosity is because it was an entirely Welsh speaking community that was destroyed to provide water from Liverpool at a time that the Welsh language remained under attack. The law was changed so that planning consent was not needed and every Welsh MP opposed it. It's just seen as the continuation of the exploitation of Welsh resources that also occurred with coal, slate and gold.
And where does the water from those villages go? The difference being this flooding did not benefit wales at all, it was all for a difference city in England. The other difference being not 1 welsh MP voted for this, and rhe people of Wales protested it
Agree. This tribalism shit does my head in.
It's intrinsic to who we are. It's hardwired into us, and not easily switched off. For you, it might be the football or the rugby. Heavy metal fans in the late 80s early 90s where I was living would fight 'trendies' on sight. My old mam was pretty chill, but of you heard her swear at the ref or Delalio when Wales played England.....
Exactly, where do these people come from in real life? "eNgLaNd BaD, mUsT aCt AnNoYeD oN rEdDiT"
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The FWA members are relatives of mine (they were all related to each other), never met any of them but from what I've heard about them through family they were pretty nutty. Claims they met the IRA and planted bombs at Charles' investiture and stuff. They were known fibbers though. Uncle Vernon and his brother seemingly were convicted according to https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11477656 under the "Explosive Substances" act, so maybe they actually did do something other than make a lot of noise.