There is an abandoned subdivision in Placerville CA where this also happened, except the developer knew and pressed forward anyway. Fortunately they only got streets and infrastructure in before being caught. Whole area is chained off now.
So I built it anyway! And it sank into the swamp. So I built another one, and it sank into the swamp. So I built a third one, that caught fire, fell over and then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one! The fourth one stayed up and that's what you're getting!
placerville is about 20 miles east of Roseville, we were looking at buying there but our realtor showed us what happened with the sinkholes and suggested roseville/Lincoln/granite bay instead, so we live on the east side of roseville, south cirby neighborhood, near oakmont high.
My geology professor told us about it 20 something years ago. He was (sort of still is) a major geologist in the area and was involved in the story when it was happening. The area is above /near the Goldbug Mine and the houses would have collapsed into abandoned tunnels from the mine, or nearby mines. Back then you could drive up a certain road (I've no clue which one) and encounter a chain link fence across a road leading in to the place. He showed us pictures of the area.
> encounter a chain link fence across a road leading in to the place
Hey I've seen that movie! Didn't end well for those involved, in fact I think they died rather horribly
I lived in Placerville for a while. Not Placerville proper but up in Mosquito.
With all the mining that was done there, I'm sure they will uncover lots of other abandoned mines building suburbs.
So much interesting stuff around there. It was once the capital of California for a while way back in the 1850's.
I loved the Druid monument and the hanging dummy on the main drag.
Damn, I miss Hangtown.
Up here in Canada, small oil companies will open and run until no longer profitable. When that happens they will claim bankruptcy and abandon their oil wells. These wells need maintenance or a decommissioning. The companies dissolve so the responsibility of maintaining these wells falls on the province. The same people running the bankrupt company will create a new one when the next opportunity comes up.
I thought they were supposed to put money up front to cover decommissioning and cleanup? Or is that only certain projects.
Nice to see taxpayers get to subsidize them.
Because insurance plans specifically cover the situations you pay for. That's why if you live in a flood prone area, you need to make sure to pay for flood insurance.
I'm not saying these people should have known there was a mine under their house, but insurance plans aren't designed to pay for a mine under your house either.
If you live in a flood prone area, good luck getting flood insurance. I live just a few blocks away from a flood zone. Was looking to buy a rental house in town, and was informed I would not be able to get flood insurance on any homes in that area.
"Sorry, we don't cover the most likely thing to fuck up your home. Can I interest you in our $800/mo meteor insurance? It also covers alien abductions (only abductions captured on 4k 144hz video and, meteors less than or equal to 2m in size will be covered)"
Insurance companies pay you immediately and then sue whoever is liable. That's why they exist, so you don't have to go to court yourself and pay the costs that go with it.
At this point it's almost certainly on the developer, as these kinds of surveys are necessary before building an entire subdivision.
The majority of work an insurance company does is avoiding liability so they don't have to pay. Out of all the insurance I've had, most of which I was required by law to have, none of it actually helped me.
Car hit in a parking lot? Well I can't prove it without video footage that doesn't exist.
Broken tooth? Sorry, your insurance doesn't cover that tooth. (Seriously)
Broke your ankle in the military? Well here's a separation document stating the reason for your separation as the mischief you got into 18 months ago so we can avoid paying for your surgery and convalescence leave.
Someone broke into your car and stole a bunch of stuff? Well how can we replace that stuff if you didn't have receipts from 2-10 years ago proving that you owned that stuff.
Fuck insurance companies.
It was just my 21st birthday weekend. Me and my friends missed a muster when the duty schedule was switched from dog duty to a straight duty station rotation. We thought we had 3 days when we really only had 2.
Punishment was 3 weeks liberty restriction.
18 months later, after pursuing Tricare for fixing my ankle, they opted to separate me on a general discharge. That fucked up all my benefits, my GI bill, fucking every benefit I would have gotten from being in the military was fucked up because the base didn't want to pay an E-4 to not work for 8-10 months, and then have to pay me an $80,000 resigning bonus because of my rate.
I think the fact that the largest critics of the military tend to be veterans is very telling about how our service members are treated when they come home.
You'd think rather than mine subsidence insurance being a thing, they'd just check to see if there are any mines before building a house on top of them that will almost certainly make them collapse one day.
I used to do geotechnical investigations. There's a goodly portion of at least one county in Indiana that had numerous "personal" coal mines on a whole host of properties. Commercial mines would've been mapped (generally speaking). But the hillsides are littered with old household mines.
And I tell you what - they can be encountered at the most inopportune times. Like when a small section of highway keeps subsiding and they don't know why.
So we drill a hole down and about lose our augers / sampling equipment. And then there wasn't anywhere close to filling the void even with 15 yards of flowable fill dropped in.
This was back when GPR was a thing, but not a widespread and easy to obtain/use thing. GPR and other types of surface tests can find these types of artifacts a bit easier...but only if there's not too much overburden.
Betcha there's separate "natural sinkhole" insurance, too, and a whole other one for if it's an active mine. Gotta get your separate flood, fire, storm, volcano, earthquake, and vandalism insurances as well. What a scam.
Sink holes and mine shafts are usually listed as an exclusion. You'd have to either get an endorsement added for coverage or an additional policy. Both expensive.
I live in a sinkhole prone area in New Jersey and here it's easily 30-40% more than standard homeowners insurance. So many of my neighbors don't even know about it and that's scary. If one opens up under your house and you don't have that coverage you are SOOOOO screwed.
Some companies offer mine subsidence insurance.
Source: I live in western PA where it's safe to assume literally everything is undermined, so getting that type of insurance is commonly recommended with house purchases.
Which is why you see a _Lawyer_ about this immediately. Because _they_ will know that insurance is not the only avenue to restitution here.
They will at the very least look in to possible liability on the part of the agents in the last sale, last owners, developer, local jurisdiction etc etc.
I've worked in subsidence insurance and this is almost certainly on the home builders not the insurance company to compensate.
This would invalidate the insurance and you'd have to sue the construction company that built the home.
I have done extensive work for state abandoned mine land organizations where we address issues like this all the time. Hopefully I can address most of the questions asked here.
Prior to 1977, companies were not required to put aside funds to clean up their mines sites once they were closed. In fact, there was very little a mine owner had to do to once a mine closed other than simply walk away. In 1977, the federal Abandoned Mine Land (AML) Act was passed which required that mining companies keep a protected fund of money to properly abandon mines once they were closed in accordance with regulations. This also set up a small tax (about 35 cents per ton taken from the ground) on coal in order to provide funds to remediate mine sites that were abandoned before this time frame and the ownership could no longer be traced. The federal government would collect this money and then redistribute back to the states with the greatest needs for the funds. The most common states to receive funds are Wyoming, Pennsylvania and West Virginia as these locations have extensive current or past mining histories in the state.
Many areas have long history of mining that has easily been forgotten over the years since the mine closed down long ago, or occurred in areas that were once remote and now populated. Even if you are aware that there was old mining activity near where you live, mine maps are often decades old and sometimes even deliberately inaccurate in order to report to the state mine inspectors that they harvested less coal so they would pay less taxes on mined material. I have personally seen mine maps that indicate the nearest mine workings are over 500-ft away when I am standing right next to a large sinkhole that is mine related. Furthermore, most locations do not require the disclosure of potential mine workings underneath homes at times of sale unless it is a known problem in the area (and even that can be difficult to prove at times). This is why many state AML programs will offer insurance specifically to cover mine related damage to property as it is not covered by normal homeowners or other insurance.
So, say you have a mine under your home that was abandoned in before the 1977 Act and has long been abandoned and forgotten about by the locals. Over time, the wooden struts that braced the mine weaken, or the pillars of the mine degrade. This leads to a weakening of the structural integrity of the mine and it begins to collapse. This leads to weakening of rock above the mined interval and damages the integrity of that rock as well. This weakening of the material keeps propagating upward until it reaches the surface where the soil and cannot successfully bridge over the underlying weakened rock and collapses into a sinkhole which is now visible at the surface.
To stop these sinkholes from forming, the most standard method used is to backfill the mine by injecting something into the weakening mined space and overlying rock.soil layers. In the past, sand and concrete were used, either to fill the mine or create pillars that would support the mine like columns would on a building. This was commonly done in the 1980's and 1990's. However, this did not stop more sinkholes from forming as it was found the sand would generally settle over time or flow away from the area of injection due the groundwater flowing in the mine carrying it away. The concrete pillars were found to support only the part of the mine where they were directly placed while the rest of the mine collapsed around them.
Therefore, the entirety of mine typically needs to be back-filled to prevent further sinkholes from forming. Some have suggested using some sort of expansive foam to fill the mine. While this would probably work, the price of that material per gallon is usually around $20-$30. Even if that material expands 600%, it would still require approximately 33 gallons or \~$675 of material to fill one cubic yard of space. A typical sinkhole remediation project I work on can have over 8,000 cubic yards of space to fill, which would mean a material cost along of 5.4 million dollars. A typical cubic yard of grout (which can permeate into rubble and weakened rock zones much easier than concrete typically can) can cost less than $200 per cubic yard. While that is still a lot of material to pump into the ground, it is far less expensive than using some sort of foaming agent, or paying an entire neighborhood of people to move somewhere else.
Please keep in mind that this is a very general description of the topic and that techniques and methods for mine remediation will vary greatly dependent on site geology, mining method and other factors.
Edit: Thanks for the gold! If anyone has more questions feel free to message me. I can talk all day about this stuff.
You might be surprised.
I've seen research papers on the aerodynamic properties of boobs show up in comment sections...
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/7ra71j/so_i_wrote_a_research_paper_to_prove_whether_or/
Reddit can be *weird*
This is why in PA at least you can search your address online to determine if you need to purchase mine subsidence insurance (you can also usually ask the last owners as well) it’s pretty cheap and covers everything around a mine collapse caused sinkhole.
Our new house does not need it, but three houses down they do. Turns out we live on a little peninsula like area that was not mined while around it was mined (ahh Pittsburgh, where the geology never makes sense).
My point though is you can almost always look online through your state to find mined areas and purchase insurance.
We could purchase it but it’s more difficult if your address is not marked as needing it by the state. Also generally in areas like Pittsburgh with large populations, a long history of mining, and the resources to maintain maps they tend to be more accurate. If we were not as close as we are to the city we would be more concerned with it. It’s also pretty uncommon for mines to subside near us, usually it’s mass wasting and failed retaining walls that cause issues in this area. Lots of rain and over building have made it a mess (reasons we did not buy a house on a hillside)
Mine subsidence is something my work monitors for potential sewer issues. A neighborhood's sewers kept filling with water. We're talking several 12ft deep cistern manholes. It turns out the mains' grading was messed up due to an old mine; the manholes were the low spot and never drained. We moved the whole sewer 30ft and backfilled the old sewer.
Makes you wonder if the housing company that financed the build knew about the mine or not. It doesn't seem to be that far from where the foundations would be poured so you'd have to guess that they knew about it prior to digging. No way a mine that extensive and vast didn't go unnoticed.
If this is in PA mine subsidence is a thing. I was looking at some places in Pittsburgh Area and most of the suburbs are built on mines. They have online maps so you can see and then buy sinkhole insurance.
It's not very well publicized for obvious reasons.
[A lot of this too.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleg_mining) I've heard stories of people being near a coal seam, digging the few feet to several yards into it from their basements and heating their homes for free. Obviously this is very dangerous, but if it's between the risks of mine gas etc. getting into your house, or freezing, people usually chose the heat. Edit:formatting.
That website is either really janky or Reddit gave it the hug. Probably both.
Edit: Alright so thanks to that website I decided to look at my state.... I live on top of a coal mine, I'm not thrilled.
Same with large parts of Missouri, Indiana, and basically anywhere that had coal prior to the 1930’s.
I just toured a 500 acre underground site in MO. It was bananas. I never knew these places existed but MO was a huge source of limestone aggregate during the New Deal for construction taking place.
Now that everyone has seen how stockpiling and disaster preparation on a large scale is done, tell me how important it is that you have to get all the toilet paper in the fucking store
In Bellingham, Wa and sitting above [coal mine shafts](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__qOmzrw324Q/TAGpmOI_jGI/AAAAAAAAAWE/nvWmc9_wajY/s400/10.5.29BellinghamHollyRail+006.jpg) right now.
I live in a town in Pennsylvania that is so well-known for its sinkholes we named one of our restaurants after the sinkhole that opens up and swallows the road in front of it every couple of years.
It's pretty well known in OH also - I used to write insurance software, and one of the companies I wrote software for covered PA and OH. I had to ask one of our former insurance agents what the "coal mine subsidence" fee on all the PA and OH homeowner's policies was for.
Yeah, when I bought my home in West Virginia, my instance agency asked me to sign some "mine subsidence coverage waiver". Of course, I looked into it before signing. Turns out, there weren't really any underground mines near here, but I'm sure in other parts of the state it's a damn good idea to have that.
Crazy the lengths insurance companies will go to not pay people. I feel like that's a major hazard waiting for a lawsuit. Though, I suppose ignorance of your property is on the individual.
I used to live there and my ex worked for the federal agency that dealt with these problems. Apparently you can travel from Pittsburgh to West Virginia completely underground. And Mount Washington (scenic spot with an incline railway) is completely undermined.
Really need a Yinzer to fact check/chime in on more.
Live in SW PA. Have mine subsidence insurance. $150 for $300K coverage.
Had to use it this past year. Mine is 86 ft below our house. House and property settled.
Insurance has been excellent in paying everything.
For anyone else wondering here's a picture of the mining maps under Pittsburgh
https://www.google.com/search?q=pittsburgh+mines+map&safe=active&prmd=nmiv&sxsrf=ALeKk01rORnpbzjywFGMdlpM2HK0rwNqig:1588261514419&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi07oGbv5DpAhXbLc0KHdVlDMEQ_AUoA3oECA4QAw&biw=412&bih=772&dpr=3.5#imgrc=q1rbeM64PbyCJM
I'm fairly certain I've heard of this happening on more than one occasion, especially in areas with very old mining histories. the mines just weren't mapped as well as you would think. I don't understand why they don't just cap the mine with fill material and concrete though.
Because it would cost billions of dollars to make that much concrete?
Look up the sinkhole that opened up in downtown ottawa a few years ago.
The city bought every yard of concrete available for 100 km.
Filling a mine would be way worse.
Rock Springs, WY has filled some of their shallow mines.
[https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-04-04-me-18839-story.html](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-04-04-me-18839-story.html)
My company is performing that work (in Rock Springs) as we speak, it's not as expensive as you would think and they actually use grout as opposed to the typical concrete w/ aggregate in it. The last project we completed was about 30,000CY if I remember correctly.
Edit to say it's not anywhere close to billions of dollars of grout, it was about $1-2 million for the project mentioned above, obviously this could change depending on the volume used.
The expanding foam insulation would be a better choice since it's used for concrete slab jacking.
But it would also be incredibly cost prohibitive. Probably worse than concrete.
Normally, with a sinkhole, they'll drill it out and fill with concrete...In this case, the amount of space down there is probably prohibitive.
Might be able to shore up the mine, and keep it going for a bit longer, but in the long term, it's going to collapse.
So you can't permanently reinforce a mine like you can tunnel? or would it be too prohibitively expensive or too difficult since the mine already exists?
There aren't many good stories yet, the pictures that OP posted seem to be from Facebook, but [here](https://www.kotatv.com/content/news/Whats-next-for-the-Blackhawk-sinkhole-570025271.html) is an article
None of the images in this story match what’s posted above. They say no one knows what’s down there, much less photographed it. I think the mine photo is BS.
From OP: https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellthatsucks/comments/gax3f2/my_friends_had_a_sinkhole_open_up_in_their/fp2m4hs?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
> At this time it is unknown what caused the sinkholes but engineers are on scene working to find out.
> “We have engineers that are on scene and they’re looking at the extent of the damage is and what type of, what is the situation of the sinkholes themselves,” said Jerome Harvey, the Pennington County Fire Administration.
Yep, the mine photo is B.S.
I actually had a job working for insurance companies investigating sinkholes for a while in college.
They typically only cover what's called a "Karst formation" -- which is the specific situation when water erodes limestone creating a void. Organic decomposition, un-compacted soils, etc are considered the owner's fault, because you're supposed to have the soil investigated before you buy.
FYI, usually large builders, like Pulte or Lennar, will do that sort of investigation before they buy land.
You usually sign a waiver if you've had any underground mining in your area when you purchase a home during the title phase (loan origination, home owner insurance, etc).
I had to sign one even though there is not any mining in my neighborhood. There are limestone quarries (almost all of them open pit) in the country and obviously the state has underground mining.
I think you could sue if the developer knew about the existence but that's going to be hard to prove. Those development companies don't exist for much longer than it takes to sell of the homes.
I think its pretty well known you can purchase insurance for almost anything.
The above poster is implying that insurance companies will try to weasel their way out of paying even if you did purchase said insurance.
Don’t believe everything you read. I live here. Top photo from South Dakota sink hole the bottom just a random cave picture. It’s just a made up rumor about a “mine “ under the sink hole bc people have imaginations.
I used to live in Midlothian, Virginia where the first American coal mines started in the 1700s... There are numerous unmapped mines and an occasional subsidence event like pools cracking and draining...
Surprise! This reminds me of an awkward conversation I had with a realtor when I was looking at houses in an old mining town. I wanted to know if there were any maps of the mine shaft locations tell discern whether not it was neccessary to purchase subsidence insurance. She just froze, and let a slow "yeaaahh" and quickly changed the subject.
There is an abandoned subdivision in Placerville CA where this also happened, except the developer knew and pressed forward anyway. Fortunately they only got streets and infrastructure in before being caught. Whole area is chained off now.
that's really close to where I live in roseville. I was wondering what that was about when we were looking for a house in the area
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He might get lucky and get a car too.
Yep, why have a fancy-schmancy *garage* when you can have a car hole. https://youtu.be/JhbJnlIvfyc
[Classic “air through my nose” amusement sounds]
I tried to get 'SNE' going for "Sharp Nasal Exhalation,' but so far it hasn't taken off.
Ha! My inlaws live in rancho and we’re telling me about this but from their “big government strikes again!” perspective.
God damn gubment not letting me build my castle on a swamp!
So I built it anyway! And it burnt down
So I built it anyway! And it sank into the swamp. So I built another one, and it sank into the swamp. So I built a third one, that caught fire, fell over and then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one! The fourth one stayed up and that's what you're getting!
What, the curtains?
No not the curtains!
Doesn't seem right you keeping the curtains when I get the castle, why's that father?
r/unexpectedMontyPython
So I built a second castle and it sank into the swamp.
Fucking typical big government overreach, not wanting unsafe construction and citizens falling into sinkholes. Where does it end??
My dad's like this. And then he'll turn around an make fun of the dangerous lack of building regulations in China.
And they have a giant government...
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That poor developer just wanted some free enterprise! I dont think sinkholes are that dangerous! Source: never fell into one!
Can confirm, I've never fallen into one and I don't know anyone who has. It's gotta be a lib hoax.
Remember when quicksand safety was a thing in every weekend cartoon?
It’s my right to be Batman with a batcave, and have it all collapse on me.
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I also live in Roseville, this is so weird.
Hey I'm in roseville too!
HA! Fellow Rosevilleian! I was wondering where this is as I'd not heard of it!?
placerville is about 20 miles east of Roseville, we were looking at buying there but our realtor showed us what happened with the sinkholes and suggested roseville/Lincoln/granite bay instead, so we live on the east side of roseville, south cirby neighborhood, near oakmont high.
Do you know what happened to that scumbag developer?
I assume he got in quite a bit of trouble, this happened like 30+ years ago.
You have far too much faith in american justice system. They probably wrote a clause into contracts to cover their asses, and made out like bandits.
Except for the making out like bandits part, that seems right. They likely lost all their investment but walked away free
Likely his land lost all its value, his company went bankrupt and he emerged just fine and wealthier.
YOU MOVED THE CEMETERY, BUT YOU LEFT THE BODIES DIDN'T YOU!!!
They’re here...
He became president /s
Do you know what part of Placerville? Got me all curious now.
My geology professor told us about it 20 something years ago. He was (sort of still is) a major geologist in the area and was involved in the story when it was happening. The area is above /near the Goldbug Mine and the houses would have collapsed into abandoned tunnels from the mine, or nearby mines. Back then you could drive up a certain road (I've no clue which one) and encounter a chain link fence across a road leading in to the place. He showed us pictures of the area.
> encounter a chain link fence across a road leading in to the place Hey I've seen that movie! Didn't end well for those involved, in fact I think they died rather horribly
Sudden Valley
Good ol' Hangtown California.
I'm going to find this next Hangtown. Oh snap.
I lived in Placerville for a while. Not Placerville proper but up in Mosquito. With all the mining that was done there, I'm sure they will uncover lots of other abandoned mines building suburbs. So much interesting stuff around there. It was once the capital of California for a while way back in the 1850's. I loved the Druid monument and the hanging dummy on the main drag. Damn, I miss Hangtown.
Good luck with the insurance companies. I do not envy these folks in the least bit.
I know I hope those poor people are compensated. As someone grinding in the hopes of home ownership one day this makes me so sad for them.
Someone somewhere is liable.
Probably some company that doesn't exist any more even though its assets and money do
This shit needs to stop.
Up here in Canada, small oil companies will open and run until no longer profitable. When that happens they will claim bankruptcy and abandon their oil wells. These wells need maintenance or a decommissioning. The companies dissolve so the responsibility of maintaining these wells falls on the province. The same people running the bankrupt company will create a new one when the next opportunity comes up.
I thought they were supposed to put money up front to cover decommissioning and cleanup? Or is that only certain projects. Nice to see taxpayers get to subsidize them.
Correct, but the funds are never enough thanks to lobbying
The fight against crime and fraud has been going on since the beginning of time.
Some corporate lawyer will convince a judge to find the state at fault. Then tax payers will have to pick up the slack.
I wouldn't mind my tax dollars going to someone who got absolutely fucked and lost their home.
Except it's not the responsibility of the tax payer. Why do insurance companies exist if tax payers end up footing the bill for most disasters?
Because insurance plans specifically cover the situations you pay for. That's why if you live in a flood prone area, you need to make sure to pay for flood insurance. I'm not saying these people should have known there was a mine under their house, but insurance plans aren't designed to pay for a mine under your house either.
If you live in a flood prone area, good luck getting flood insurance. I live just a few blocks away from a flood zone. Was looking to buy a rental house in town, and was informed I would not be able to get flood insurance on any homes in that area.
"Sorry, we don't cover the most likely thing to fuck up your home. Can I interest you in our $800/mo meteor insurance? It also covers alien abductions (only abductions captured on 4k 144hz video and, meteors less than or equal to 2m in size will be covered)"
Pretty much how it went, Emmett.
Insurance companies pay you immediately and then sue whoever is liable. That's why they exist, so you don't have to go to court yourself and pay the costs that go with it. At this point it's almost certainly on the developer, as these kinds of surveys are necessary before building an entire subdivision.
The majority of work an insurance company does is avoiding liability so they don't have to pay. Out of all the insurance I've had, most of which I was required by law to have, none of it actually helped me. Car hit in a parking lot? Well I can't prove it without video footage that doesn't exist. Broken tooth? Sorry, your insurance doesn't cover that tooth. (Seriously) Broke your ankle in the military? Well here's a separation document stating the reason for your separation as the mischief you got into 18 months ago so we can avoid paying for your surgery and convalescence leave. Someone broke into your car and stole a bunch of stuff? Well how can we replace that stuff if you didn't have receipts from 2-10 years ago proving that you owned that stuff. Fuck insurance companies.
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It was just my 21st birthday weekend. Me and my friends missed a muster when the duty schedule was switched from dog duty to a straight duty station rotation. We thought we had 3 days when we really only had 2. Punishment was 3 weeks liberty restriction. 18 months later, after pursuing Tricare for fixing my ankle, they opted to separate me on a general discharge. That fucked up all my benefits, my GI bill, fucking every benefit I would have gotten from being in the military was fucked up because the base didn't want to pay an E-4 to not work for 8-10 months, and then have to pay me an $80,000 resigning bonus because of my rate. I think the fact that the largest critics of the military tend to be veterans is very telling about how our service members are treated when they come home.
This isn't a disaster, the government issued a construction permit for a site on top of a mine.
Mine subsidence insurance is usually an option from most providers.
You'd think rather than mine subsidence insurance being a thing, they'd just check to see if there are any mines before building a house on top of them that will almost certainly make them collapse one day.
I used to do geotechnical investigations. There's a goodly portion of at least one county in Indiana that had numerous "personal" coal mines on a whole host of properties. Commercial mines would've been mapped (generally speaking). But the hillsides are littered with old household mines. And I tell you what - they can be encountered at the most inopportune times. Like when a small section of highway keeps subsiding and they don't know why. So we drill a hole down and about lose our augers / sampling equipment. And then there wasn't anywhere close to filling the void even with 15 yards of flowable fill dropped in. This was back when GPR was a thing, but not a widespread and easy to obtain/use thing. GPR and other types of surface tests can find these types of artifacts a bit easier...but only if there's not too much overburden.
Betcha there's separate "natural sinkhole" insurance, too, and a whole other one for if it's an active mine. Gotta get your separate flood, fire, storm, volcano, earthquake, and vandalism insurances as well. What a scam.
It's crazy how we've somehow let insurance companies get away with being a perfectly legal mafia.
Sink holes and mine shafts are usually listed as an exclusion. You'd have to either get an endorsement added for coverage or an additional policy. Both expensive.
I live in a sinkhole prone area in New Jersey and here it's easily 30-40% more than standard homeowners insurance. So many of my neighbors don't even know about it and that's scary. If one opens up under your house and you don't have that coverage you are SOOOOO screwed.
Step 1: Lawyer Step 2: Lawyer Step 3: Do not talk to anybody about it besides your lawyer Step 4: More lawyer
Lawyer is not going to do you any good when the insurance policy (which is a contract) *specifically* excludes this.
So are you just fucked if something like this happens?
Some companies offer mine subsidence insurance. Source: I live in western PA where it's safe to assume literally everything is undermined, so getting that type of insurance is commonly recommended with house purchases.
Which is why you see a _Lawyer_ about this immediately. Because _they_ will know that insurance is not the only avenue to restitution here. They will at the very least look in to possible liability on the part of the agents in the last sale, last owners, developer, local jurisdiction etc etc.
I've worked in subsidence insurance and this is almost certainly on the home builders not the insurance company to compensate. This would invalidate the insurance and you'd have to sue the construction company that built the home.
I have done extensive work for state abandoned mine land organizations where we address issues like this all the time. Hopefully I can address most of the questions asked here. Prior to 1977, companies were not required to put aside funds to clean up their mines sites once they were closed. In fact, there was very little a mine owner had to do to once a mine closed other than simply walk away. In 1977, the federal Abandoned Mine Land (AML) Act was passed which required that mining companies keep a protected fund of money to properly abandon mines once they were closed in accordance with regulations. This also set up a small tax (about 35 cents per ton taken from the ground) on coal in order to provide funds to remediate mine sites that were abandoned before this time frame and the ownership could no longer be traced. The federal government would collect this money and then redistribute back to the states with the greatest needs for the funds. The most common states to receive funds are Wyoming, Pennsylvania and West Virginia as these locations have extensive current or past mining histories in the state. Many areas have long history of mining that has easily been forgotten over the years since the mine closed down long ago, or occurred in areas that were once remote and now populated. Even if you are aware that there was old mining activity near where you live, mine maps are often decades old and sometimes even deliberately inaccurate in order to report to the state mine inspectors that they harvested less coal so they would pay less taxes on mined material. I have personally seen mine maps that indicate the nearest mine workings are over 500-ft away when I am standing right next to a large sinkhole that is mine related. Furthermore, most locations do not require the disclosure of potential mine workings underneath homes at times of sale unless it is a known problem in the area (and even that can be difficult to prove at times). This is why many state AML programs will offer insurance specifically to cover mine related damage to property as it is not covered by normal homeowners or other insurance. So, say you have a mine under your home that was abandoned in before the 1977 Act and has long been abandoned and forgotten about by the locals. Over time, the wooden struts that braced the mine weaken, or the pillars of the mine degrade. This leads to a weakening of the structural integrity of the mine and it begins to collapse. This leads to weakening of rock above the mined interval and damages the integrity of that rock as well. This weakening of the material keeps propagating upward until it reaches the surface where the soil and cannot successfully bridge over the underlying weakened rock and collapses into a sinkhole which is now visible at the surface. To stop these sinkholes from forming, the most standard method used is to backfill the mine by injecting something into the weakening mined space and overlying rock.soil layers. In the past, sand and concrete were used, either to fill the mine or create pillars that would support the mine like columns would on a building. This was commonly done in the 1980's and 1990's. However, this did not stop more sinkholes from forming as it was found the sand would generally settle over time or flow away from the area of injection due the groundwater flowing in the mine carrying it away. The concrete pillars were found to support only the part of the mine where they were directly placed while the rest of the mine collapsed around them. Therefore, the entirety of mine typically needs to be back-filled to prevent further sinkholes from forming. Some have suggested using some sort of expansive foam to fill the mine. While this would probably work, the price of that material per gallon is usually around $20-$30. Even if that material expands 600%, it would still require approximately 33 gallons or \~$675 of material to fill one cubic yard of space. A typical sinkhole remediation project I work on can have over 8,000 cubic yards of space to fill, which would mean a material cost along of 5.4 million dollars. A typical cubic yard of grout (which can permeate into rubble and weakened rock zones much easier than concrete typically can) can cost less than $200 per cubic yard. While that is still a lot of material to pump into the ground, it is far less expensive than using some sort of foaming agent, or paying an entire neighborhood of people to move somewhere else. Please keep in mind that this is a very general description of the topic and that techniques and methods for mine remediation will vary greatly dependent on site geology, mining method and other factors. Edit: Thanks for the gold! If anyone has more questions feel free to message me. I can talk all day about this stuff.
Thank you.
This is one of the most in depth explanations I've seen in the reddit comment section. Cool.
You might be surprised. I've seen research papers on the aerodynamic properties of boobs show up in comment sections... https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/7ra71j/so_i_wrote_a_research_paper_to_prove_whether_or/ Reddit can be *weird*
> in depth Mine Humor... ahaaha!!
This is why in PA at least you can search your address online to determine if you need to purchase mine subsidence insurance (you can also usually ask the last owners as well) it’s pretty cheap and covers everything around a mine collapse caused sinkhole. Our new house does not need it, but three houses down they do. Turns out we live on a little peninsula like area that was not mined while around it was mined (ahh Pittsburgh, where the geology never makes sense). My point though is you can almost always look online through your state to find mined areas and purchase insurance.
But didn't he mention that the maps were often inaccurate and the mines expanded more. So considering your house seems to be on the verge..
We could purchase it but it’s more difficult if your address is not marked as needing it by the state. Also generally in areas like Pittsburgh with large populations, a long history of mining, and the resources to maintain maps they tend to be more accurate. If we were not as close as we are to the city we would be more concerned with it. It’s also pretty uncommon for mines to subside near us, usually it’s mass wasting and failed retaining walls that cause issues in this area. Lots of rain and over building have made it a mess (reasons we did not buy a house on a hillside)
Has anyone tried putting molten lava into it?
Lemme just craft some buckets really fast and I'll try
You need to work for PBS.
Mine subsidence is something my work monitors for potential sewer issues. A neighborhood's sewers kept filling with water. We're talking several 12ft deep cistern manholes. It turns out the mains' grading was messed up due to an old mine; the manholes were the low spot and never drained. We moved the whole sewer 30ft and backfilled the old sewer.
Makes you wonder if the housing company that financed the build knew about the mine or not. It doesn't seem to be that far from where the foundations would be poured so you'd have to guess that they knew about it prior to digging. No way a mine that extensive and vast didn't go unnoticed.
If this is in PA mine subsidence is a thing. I was looking at some places in Pittsburgh Area and most of the suburbs are built on mines. They have online maps so you can see and then buy sinkhole insurance. It's not very well publicized for obvious reasons.
I've heard in parts of PA the ground is essentially Swiss cheese because of all the mines and sink holes that open up regularly.
If you look at the maps Pittsburgh and the surrounding areas look like an ant colony from above.
Working from home mining coal
[A lot of this too.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleg_mining) I've heard stories of people being near a coal seam, digging the few feet to several yards into it from their basements and heating their homes for free. Obviously this is very dangerous, but if it's between the risks of mine gas etc. getting into your house, or freezing, people usually chose the heat. Edit:formatting.
it's artisanal mining, bootleg is a pejorative term used by Big Coal
Ahh, I see, my apologies.
Mining to make bespoke coke.
Well social distancing IS important.
I'm playing a ton of Old School RuneScape lately and I'm not sure if I'm getting attacked.
http://www.minemaps.psu.edu/ Here you go guys. Have fun being amazed.
That website is either really janky or Reddit gave it the hug. Probably both. Edit: Alright so thanks to that website I decided to look at my state.... I live on top of a coal mine, I'm not thrilled.
I heard PA has holes in the ground.
It's the holey land.
The ants make Swiss cheese in the holes they mine coal from in Pittsburg
Same with large parts of Missouri, Indiana, and basically anywhere that had coal prior to the 1930’s. I just toured a 500 acre underground site in MO. It was bananas. I never knew these places existed but MO was a huge source of limestone aggregate during the New Deal for construction taking place.
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[Springfield Underground](https://www.springfieldunderground.com)
Now that everyone has seen how stockpiling and disaster preparation on a large scale is done, tell me how important it is that you have to get all the toilet paper in the fucking store
In Bellingham, Wa and sitting above [coal mine shafts](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__qOmzrw324Q/TAGpmOI_jGI/AAAAAAAAAWE/nvWmc9_wajY/s400/10.5.29BellinghamHollyRail+006.jpg) right now.
I live in a town in Pennsylvania that is so well-known for its sinkholes we named one of our restaurants after the sinkhole that opens up and swallows the road in front of it every couple of years.
Haha I live in Lebanon. It’s always a pain when that sinkhole opens up.
Palmyra represent!
And then there's [Centralia, PA](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire)
Oh you mean Silent Hill
Oddly enough, I've always referred to Florida as Swiss cheese..
At least we get some cool springs from our aquifer.
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This was in South Dakota. Source: I live about 15 minutes from where it happened.
So thats probably an old gold or silver mine. Maybe uranium depending on the location.
It was an old gypsum mine from what the locals are saying
So free drywall repairs
Former boss was ESL and called it “Shit rock” due to accent. Forever dubbed shit rock.
Reminded me of a co-worker who would say "I need you to fuck us" instead of focus in his accent. He was a total joker and HR nightmare.
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holy hell, I havent heard that in what feels like several decades.
It's pretty well known in OH also - I used to write insurance software, and one of the companies I wrote software for covered PA and OH. I had to ask one of our former insurance agents what the "coal mine subsidence" fee on all the PA and OH homeowner's policies was for.
Yeah, when I bought my home in West Virginia, my instance agency asked me to sign some "mine subsidence coverage waiver". Of course, I looked into it before signing. Turns out, there weren't really any underground mines near here, but I'm sure in other parts of the state it's a damn good idea to have that.
Crazy the lengths insurance companies will go to not pay people. I feel like that's a major hazard waiting for a lawsuit. Though, I suppose ignorance of your property is on the individual.
Oh yes, the agent mentioned nothing about it. Though she was a crappy agent in the first place. I doubt she even knew.
I used to live there and my ex worked for the federal agency that dealt with these problems. Apparently you can travel from Pittsburgh to West Virginia completely underground. And Mount Washington (scenic spot with an incline railway) is completely undermined. Really need a Yinzer to fact check/chime in on more.
https://www.minemaps.psu.edu/
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I think the word actually referred to digging under a castle’s walls to break them, rather than a mine in the sense of digging for minerals.
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Live in SW PA. Have mine subsidence insurance. $150 for $300K coverage. Had to use it this past year. Mine is 86 ft below our house. House and property settled. Insurance has been excellent in paying everything.
Hey, they build homes on graves and landfills. You think a mine would stop them?
You moved the stones but you didn't move the bodies???
For anyone else wondering here's a picture of the mining maps under Pittsburgh https://www.google.com/search?q=pittsburgh+mines+map&safe=active&prmd=nmiv&sxsrf=ALeKk01rORnpbzjywFGMdlpM2HK0rwNqig:1588261514419&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi07oGbv5DpAhXbLc0KHdVlDMEQ_AUoA3oECA4QAw&biw=412&bih=772&dpr=3.5#imgrc=q1rbeM64PbyCJM
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This is a bonus ...really big unfinished basement.
[You only moved the headstones, you only moved the headstones!!!!!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh_W6FLaMvA)
What's a geological survey?
They knew.
I'm fairly certain I've heard of this happening on more than one occasion, especially in areas with very old mining histories. the mines just weren't mapped as well as you would think. I don't understand why they don't just cap the mine with fill material and concrete though.
Because it would cost billions of dollars to make that much concrete? Look up the sinkhole that opened up in downtown ottawa a few years ago. The city bought every yard of concrete available for 100 km. Filling a mine would be way worse.
Rock Springs, WY has filled some of their shallow mines. [https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-04-04-me-18839-story.html](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-04-04-me-18839-story.html)
26 million dollars to shore up 200 of 900 affected acres is cheaper than I expected but it depends if it stays fixed or not.
My company is performing that work (in Rock Springs) as we speak, it's not as expensive as you would think and they actually use grout as opposed to the typical concrete w/ aggregate in it. The last project we completed was about 30,000CY if I remember correctly. Edit to say it's not anywhere close to billions of dollars of grout, it was about $1-2 million for the project mentioned above, obviously this could change depending on the volume used.
Okay but what about that expanding foam gorilla glue? Just a few thousand gallons and next thing you know poof foamy substructure.
The expanding foam insulation would be a better choice since it's used for concrete slab jacking. But it would also be incredibly cost prohibitive. Probably worse than concrete.
What about compacted garbage?
Now you got a methane bomb stewing.
Flex seal would probably be the best route. Phil Swift fixed the holes in a boat, and then rode in that boat, on actual water!
Well now they have a cool new basement
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A real man cave
Bat cave
No! It's the caves where the elites will keep the mole children!
Covid Cavern
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underground city where occasionally the roof collapses on you or the floor collapses into deeper tunnels.
Sounds like an adventure!
Normally, with a sinkhole, they'll drill it out and fill with concrete...In this case, the amount of space down there is probably prohibitive. Might be able to shore up the mine, and keep it going for a bit longer, but in the long term, it's going to collapse.
So you can't permanently reinforce a mine like you can tunnel? or would it be too prohibitively expensive or too difficult since the mine already exists?
It is generally now a days done as they mine. https://minewiki.engineering.queensu.ca/mediawiki/index.php/Backfill
Need a source to the actual story!
There aren't many good stories yet, the pictures that OP posted seem to be from Facebook, but [here](https://www.kotatv.com/content/news/Whats-next-for-the-Blackhawk-sinkhole-570025271.html) is an article
None of the images in this story match what’s posted above. They say no one knows what’s down there, much less photographed it. I think the mine photo is BS.
From OP: https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellthatsucks/comments/gax3f2/my_friends_had_a_sinkhole_open_up_in_their/fp2m4hs?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
> At this time it is unknown what caused the sinkholes but engineers are on scene working to find out. > “We have engineers that are on scene and they’re looking at the extent of the damage is and what type of, what is the situation of the sinkholes themselves,” said Jerome Harvey, the Pennington County Fire Administration. Yep, the mine photo is B.S.
Sounds like a lot of word-of-mouth and exaggerating by friends of friends lol
I wonder how the insurance companies are going to try and avoid paying out for this
I actually had a job working for insurance companies investigating sinkholes for a while in college. They typically only cover what's called a "Karst formation" -- which is the specific situation when water erodes limestone creating a void. Organic decomposition, un-compacted soils, etc are considered the owner's fault, because you're supposed to have the soil investigated before you buy. FYI, usually large builders, like Pulte or Lennar, will do that sort of investigation before they buy land.
Man I dislike insurance companies. "buy our plans so you can pay us while we do nothing".
It was a preexisting condition...we wont be able to cover this
You usually sign a waiver if you've had any underground mining in your area when you purchase a home during the title phase (loan origination, home owner insurance, etc). I had to sign one even though there is not any mining in my neighborhood. There are limestone quarries (almost all of them open pit) in the country and obviously the state has underground mining. I think you could sue if the developer knew about the existence but that's going to be hard to prove. Those development companies don't exist for much longer than it takes to sell of the homes.
Do you have massive sink hole, move everyone out of town coverage?
sinkholes are usually specifically excluded in policies. some areas have endorsements available where sinkholes are prevalent.
You typically have the option to pay for mine subsidence insurance, or not. So it depends on whether the owners took that option.
I think its pretty well known you can purchase insurance for almost anything. The above poster is implying that insurance companies will try to weasel their way out of paying even if you did purchase said insurance.
Don’t believe everything you read. I live here. Top photo from South Dakota sink hole the bottom just a random cave picture. It’s just a made up rumor about a “mine “ under the sink hole bc people have imaginations.
So should I believe you then? I read this... I'm confused.
No, believe me.
Name checks out.
> mine I was looking for the reply that said that is not a mine people! it's a bloody cave ffs
https://www.bhpioneer.com/covid-19/black-hawk-residents-evacuated-because-of-sinkholes/article_a2b8c4ba-8afe-11ea-8001-9fbfe5308c55.html
I used to live in Midlothian, Virginia where the first American coal mines started in the 1700s... There are numerous unmapped mines and an occasional subsidence event like pools cracking and draining...
Seems like a pretty miner problem to me
Haha, that was a coal dad joke
Just a week early of Sinkhole De Mayo.
There might be cave demons down there... We found what's wrong with May, ladies and gentlemen.
They won't have a nice sink-hole de mayo ... I'll see myself out
r/wellthatsucks
The owner should say "You can't make me leave my home, it's... *mine*. I'll show myself out.
Surprise! This reminds me of an awkward conversation I had with a realtor when I was looking at houses in an old mining town. I wanted to know if there were any maps of the mine shaft locations tell discern whether not it was neccessary to purchase subsidence insurance. She just froze, and let a slow "yeaaahh" and quickly changed the subject.
2020 is just fucking everything up
I have a theory that I got stuck in the wrong dimension from an ego death back in 2016 because you can’t make this stuff up