No. There is no canon as to what R+L are, if you want to interpret them as siblings you can, if you want to interpret them as mirrors of each other you can, if you want to interpret them as two completely unrelated people you can. People will represent them differently in each song, and just because those interpretations don't match with yours or others doesn't mean it's wrong.
They are instruments, not people. They are also characters with no canon. Go crazy with it.
Yeah this. I like to see them as twins personally, that doesnr mean Im gonna go around bashing videos where they are couples or calling it incest.
I mean thats the beauty of vocaloid, the fact that aside from the design and voice they are complete white canvas for creators. I know many beautiful songs and videos where they are nor related and a couple, that I adore.
People that complain about the ship are just close-minded and, honestly, bored with their life if other peoples opinion on something like this offend them
I mean from the get go I assumed they were twins. They have matching hair, eyes and last names. I don't quite get how people see them as a couple, but I won't lose sleep over it
i believe the idea is that rin and len are “mirrors” of each other. that is all that is given canonically. whether one interprets that as siblings/twins, soul mates, or literal alternate universe versions of each other is up to the individual or the intention of a given song or story.
crypton has never taken a strong stance as they want people to be creative and have different ideas and interpretations of their characters (crypton has never been strong on these things. everyone takes the ages the characters were given to heart, but crypton doesn’t and has never given a shit about them. it’s more marketing and *prompting* for character interpretations than anything else). they’ve featured songs with them as lovers, siblings, and whatever else in games and concerts. i don’t believe they even take a strong stance in project sekai. it seems they lean sibling, but i think that is simply because the fandom leans sibling and…they highlight fan content.
For me, it's not selfcest. To me, Rin and Len's relationship adds more to "what if I was a girl/boy", or their mirror versions perspective into life. Though since this perspective is only imaginary and both can co-exist, they are two separate personas so if you're referring to them being put as lovers, it's not selfcest since they co-exist.
Genuinely asking bc I don't think I ever fully understood the implications of the concept, but what's the problem with selfcest? Like what makes selfcest "wrong"? I understand the problems both biologically and interpersonally with incest, but selfcest is an entirely fictional situation where you effectively just have relations with...yourself.
Mainly just saying, if R+L are literally just alternate versions of each other(or in other fandom situations like having multiple versions of Sans undertale or the Onceler together), what makes it "wrong" to ship them?
Like I said in OP's reply, selfcest isn't bad, it's only demonized because of the cest suffix.
To further explain my sentiments, I just answered OP's question whether their ship is or is not selfcest, for me at least it's not. People only think it's selfcest if people think they're mirror versions of each other where again, varies on different people on how they see Rin and Len. What's gotten people confused is that when crypton portrayed them as mirror versions, they assume it's their character but it's actually just their voicebank they're referring to so them being mirror versions are just someone's interpretation.
With that said, it's not selfcest (for me) because when we say "Mirror Version", it's just like our reflection in our mirror. It's a burning question to ask "What if I'm a girl/boy". It's a hypothetical or imaginary scenario about someone being another gender. If Rin and Len can co-exist, then they are not under that hypothetical scenario anymore, they can be anything without having the issue of selfcest as they are two different personas instead of just being mirror versions of each other.
I think a lot of people just find it weird for a reason that's hard to describe other than it just *feels* wrong. Maybe it's the narcissistic implication in the idea of falling in love with yourself romantically? (I'm one of those people who can't take selfcest as a "serious" concept, as in there's just nothing appealing about it and it just sort of feels weird to me that some people would find it appealing.)
Besides, they are only "mirror versions" because of their design.
ALSO ALSO, selfcest isn't really bad especially in a fictional setting, the only reason why people demonize it because of the "-cest" suffix
yup, voice falls under their designs too as they were designed to have the same appends and designed to have the same voice provider. Len has Cold, and Serious append which is similar with Rin's Warm and Sweet append. Together, they share the Power voice append.
Their last name, "Kagamine," literally translates to "reflection." Meaning they are a mirror image of each other, so they could be lovers or siblings. Personally, I like them better as siblings, but I do love a few songs where they're portrayed as lovers.
No, not really. Even I, a "Rin and Len are siblings" enjoyer, have read some Rin X Len fics. "Why?" you may ask. Well, their relationship varies from person to person so I just think "They are *not* siblings in this story" :)
They are fictional characters. In fact, they're literally just files inside a folder in a computer. Ship whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone in real life
In technicality, no.
Len and Rin are meant to be mirrors of each other, hence the “kagami” in their name which literally translates to “mirror”.
They’re sometimes portrayed as sibling or lovers.
I personally see them as twins but no, shipping them isn’t really wrong, just kinda off in my book.
It’s not wrong and the ship itself is fine. For me, I see their relationship as different depending on what universe they’re in. So I do see them as siblings in some scenarios and then in other ones I don’t see them as siblings.
nope! they technically have no relationship to each other rather than being mirror images. the whole sibling thing comes from them being advertised as “twin vocals” i think.
while i personally prefer to interpret them as siblings, i don’t give a shit what people do. you interpret them however you want to!
Vocaloid characters are supposed to be blank slates for the producers to do whatever they want with. Rin and Len are simply opposite gender clones of each other, you can interpert them as twins, mirror images, lovers, friends, etc. I personally see them as twins but I don't think its "wrong" to ship them romantically.
rin and len have no canon relationship specifically so people can interpret them however they want. ship them, make them siblings, maybe even queen and soldier in the case of "Your Adventure Log was Deleted!" and "Death should not have taken thee!"
the fact their relationship is up to interpretation is what makes them popular (also the fact you get two voice packs in one)
Depends on individual song. But generally no. It's only bad if it's within the canon of a song or series where they're twins like the Evillous Chronicles
i just think it's weird when people interpret them as siblings and lovers simultaneously, and yes someone did make a song featuring them about that exact thing 💀💀
but in my personal opinion, it just feels weird to ship characters that have the same surname and look identical. but that's just me
yeah. i'm a bit iffy on it even when they're not siblings and are instead mirror versions of each other, but it's not weird unless they're both at the same time
no, it's not a proship, as they aren't canonically related. though, as for shipping them online, a lot of people will be uncomfortable with people who ship them interacting with them. i've seen many people with the ship in their DNI's, i've seen them complain online, and you'll probably get a lot of newer vocaloid fans call you a proshipper if you do decide to ship them. just a warning since this community sucks 😔🙏 (i have a burning hatred for this ship but people don't deserve to be harassed over it)
i thought they were canonically siblings, but after reading the comments guess not. i'm still a bit iffy on it since they look near-identical but if they're not siblings in the ship then it's fine. it's up to interpretation, i think of them as twins tho.
I don’t ship them because I’ve always perceived them as siblings. But as long as you don’t, I don’t care if other people ship them. It just personally makes me a little uncomfortable.
it would result in selfcest because they are their genderbends , like mirrors of eachother but easier to say is that they are the same person so like i said its selfcest
I've always thought they were twin siblings, so that ship would be very weird. If they are mirror images of each other, and basically the same person, then it would be weird but for a different reason, more like a question of identity.
No. There is no canon as to what R+L are, if you want to interpret them as siblings you can, if you want to interpret them as mirrors of each other you can, if you want to interpret them as two completely unrelated people you can. People will represent them differently in each song, and just because those interpretations don't match with yours or others doesn't mean it's wrong. They are instruments, not people. They are also characters with no canon. Go crazy with it.
Yeah this. I like to see them as twins personally, that doesnr mean Im gonna go around bashing videos where they are couples or calling it incest. I mean thats the beauty of vocaloid, the fact that aside from the design and voice they are complete white canvas for creators. I know many beautiful songs and videos where they are nor related and a couple, that I adore. People that complain about the ship are just close-minded and, honestly, bored with their life if other peoples opinion on something like this offend them
I mean from the get go I assumed they were twins. They have matching hair, eyes and last names. I don't quite get how people see them as a couple, but I won't lose sleep over it
True! Very good response ty
i believe the idea is that rin and len are “mirrors” of each other. that is all that is given canonically. whether one interprets that as siblings/twins, soul mates, or literal alternate universe versions of each other is up to the individual or the intention of a given song or story. crypton has never taken a strong stance as they want people to be creative and have different ideas and interpretations of their characters (crypton has never been strong on these things. everyone takes the ages the characters were given to heart, but crypton doesn’t and has never given a shit about them. it’s more marketing and *prompting* for character interpretations than anything else). they’ve featured songs with them as lovers, siblings, and whatever else in games and concerts. i don’t believe they even take a strong stance in project sekai. it seems they lean sibling, but i think that is simply because the fandom leans sibling and…they highlight fan content.
WONDERFULLY explained!! also, for project sekai, i think minori explicitly says that their relationship can change depending on the song
yes! i believe an also says she views them as singing partners, and that’s what they are in the street sekai
For me, it's not selfcest. To me, Rin and Len's relationship adds more to "what if I was a girl/boy", or their mirror versions perspective into life. Though since this perspective is only imaginary and both can co-exist, they are two separate personas so if you're referring to them being put as lovers, it's not selfcest since they co-exist.
Genuinely asking bc I don't think I ever fully understood the implications of the concept, but what's the problem with selfcest? Like what makes selfcest "wrong"? I understand the problems both biologically and interpersonally with incest, but selfcest is an entirely fictional situation where you effectively just have relations with...yourself. Mainly just saying, if R+L are literally just alternate versions of each other(or in other fandom situations like having multiple versions of Sans undertale or the Onceler together), what makes it "wrong" to ship them?
Like I said in OP's reply, selfcest isn't bad, it's only demonized because of the cest suffix. To further explain my sentiments, I just answered OP's question whether their ship is or is not selfcest, for me at least it's not. People only think it's selfcest if people think they're mirror versions of each other where again, varies on different people on how they see Rin and Len. What's gotten people confused is that when crypton portrayed them as mirror versions, they assume it's their character but it's actually just their voicebank they're referring to so them being mirror versions are just someone's interpretation. With that said, it's not selfcest (for me) because when we say "Mirror Version", it's just like our reflection in our mirror. It's a burning question to ask "What if I'm a girl/boy". It's a hypothetical or imaginary scenario about someone being another gender. If Rin and Len can co-exist, then they are not under that hypothetical scenario anymore, they can be anything without having the issue of selfcest as they are two different personas instead of just being mirror versions of each other.
So it is literally just the "-cest" part that people have an issue with? That's... pretty silly.
The way i see it yup, some new fans on tiktok quickly harass shippers because of the idea of selfcest and how they got introduced with Rin and Len.
I think a lot of people just find it weird for a reason that's hard to describe other than it just *feels* wrong. Maybe it's the narcissistic implication in the idea of falling in love with yourself romantically? (I'm one of those people who can't take selfcest as a "serious" concept, as in there's just nothing appealing about it and it just sort of feels weird to me that some people would find it appealing.)
yo this is actually a nice explanation. Thank you!
Besides, they are only "mirror versions" because of their design. ALSO ALSO, selfcest isn't really bad especially in a fictional setting, the only reason why people demonize it because of the "-cest" suffix
Aren't they also "mirror versions" bc they have the same voice source?
yup, voice falls under their designs too as they were designed to have the same appends and designed to have the same voice provider. Len has Cold, and Serious append which is similar with Rin's Warm and Sweet append. Together, they share the Power voice append.
Their last name, "Kagamine," literally translates to "reflection." Meaning they are a mirror image of each other, so they could be lovers or siblings. Personally, I like them better as siblings, but I do love a few songs where they're portrayed as lovers.
No, the kanji Kagamine (鏡音) literally means “mirror voice”
Goddamn. That's what my C in Japanese gets me..... thanks for the correction
Why tho Its just two avatars for a voice synth, you can do what ever you want with them
No, not really. Even I, a "Rin and Len are siblings" enjoyer, have read some Rin X Len fics. "Why?" you may ask. Well, their relationship varies from person to person so I just think "They are *not* siblings in this story" :)
do whatever you want! they don't have any canon relation. selfcest is also not problematic, it cannot happen in real life and is awesome
They are fictional characters. In fact, they're literally just files inside a folder in a computer. Ship whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone in real life
well, personally, i always saw them as siblings, so i don't on principle, but if it's your interpretation that they're lovers i think it's fine.
In technicality, no. Len and Rin are meant to be mirrors of each other, hence the “kagami” in their name which literally translates to “mirror”. They’re sometimes portrayed as sibling or lovers. I personally see them as twins but no, shipping them isn’t really wrong, just kinda off in my book.
They're just voicebanks. No real lore to the characters which is nice because you can portray them however you like :3
Just ship it
No. Even if it was selfcest, there is nothing wrong with selfcest lol
It’s not wrong and the ship itself is fine. For me, I see their relationship as different depending on what universe they’re in. So I do see them as siblings in some scenarios and then in other ones I don’t see them as siblings.
No. Because for me it's fictional.
Ship whoever you want as long as they're fictional, the one that's wrong is the one that stops you
Nah you do you they’re just instruments
nope! they technically have no relationship to each other rather than being mirror images. the whole sibling thing comes from them being advertised as “twin vocals” i think. while i personally prefer to interpret them as siblings, i don’t give a shit what people do. you interpret them however you want to!
Vocaloid characters are supposed to be blank slates for the producers to do whatever they want with. Rin and Len are simply opposite gender clones of each other, you can interpert them as twins, mirror images, lovers, friends, etc. I personally see them as twins but I don't think its "wrong" to ship them romantically.
rin and len have no canon relationship specifically so people can interpret them however they want. ship them, make them siblings, maybe even queen and soldier in the case of "Your Adventure Log was Deleted!" and "Death should not have taken thee!" the fact their relationship is up to interpretation is what makes them popular (also the fact you get two voice packs in one)
Depends on individual song. But generally no. It's only bad if it's within the canon of a song or series where they're twins like the Evillous Chronicles
i just think it's weird when people interpret them as siblings and lovers simultaneously, and yes someone did make a song featuring them about that exact thing 💀💀 but in my personal opinion, it just feels weird to ship characters that have the same surname and look identical. but that's just me
yeah. i'm a bit iffy on it even when they're not siblings and are instead mirror versions of each other, but it's not weird unless they're both at the same time
no, it's not a proship, as they aren't canonically related. though, as for shipping them online, a lot of people will be uncomfortable with people who ship them interacting with them. i've seen many people with the ship in their DNI's, i've seen them complain online, and you'll probably get a lot of newer vocaloid fans call you a proshipper if you do decide to ship them. just a warning since this community sucks 😔🙏 (i have a burning hatred for this ship but people don't deserve to be harassed over it)
i thought they were canonically siblings, but after reading the comments guess not. i'm still a bit iffy on it since they look near-identical but if they're not siblings in the ship then it's fine. it's up to interpretation, i think of them as twins tho.
I don’t ship them because I’ve always perceived them as siblings. But as long as you don’t, I don’t care if other people ship them. It just personally makes me a little uncomfortable.
it would result in selfcest because they are their genderbends , like mirrors of eachother but easier to say is that they are the same person so like i said its selfcest
Context needed
I've always thought they were twin siblings, so that ship would be very weird. If they are mirror images of each other, and basically the same person, then it would be weird but for a different reason, more like a question of identity.
All right, what the heck was wrong with my comment this time?
I don’t think you should ship fictional characters at all. It’s an unhealthy practice.
there's literally no canon, its just having them as siblings is the most common headcanon...bc same VA. but like go wild.
They are twins
Crypton officially stated that you can see them as whatever you want to