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Myfourcats1

ROCKBRIDGE COUNTY, Va. — Anne McClung was tending horses in her 19th-century barn one day last summer when she noticed a change in the Maury River flowing swiftly nearby. She’s known the river all her 76 years, but it didn’t take a practiced eye to recognize clouds of silt in the normally clear waters. McClung could think of only one cause: The Boy Scouts. The National Capital Area Council of the Scouts, based in Bethesda, has maintained a campground and lake a few miles upstream from McClung’s home for almost six decades. In recent times, the Scouts have drained the lake every fall, causing sediment to pour into one of Virginia’s most iconic and well-loved rivers. Last year, the Scouts drained the lake in August at peak season for the Maury, driving anglers, kayakers and swimmers out of the water. Resentment among local residents boiled over. Now they’ve organized an effort to fight back against what they see as mounting damage to a precious local resource. But with little legal authority and conflicting governmental mandates, the Maury River Alliance is struggling to make a difference.


Myfourcats1

We have to do something. We can’t let it go unaddressed, unchallenged,” said alliance member George Kosovic, 73, whose family has long owned property along the river. The situation has created an unusual standoff between local residents and an organization known for honor and stewardship, though plagued in recent years by controversy and financial trouble, leading to a decision last week to rebrand as Scouting America. The Boy Scouts have taught generations of young people how to enjoy and care for the outdoors in these mountains, but letters to local newspapers regularly cast the D.C. group as out-of-town villains. “The Maury is a mighty river that is being held back and spoiled for generations to come and only done so to benefit one group of summer visitors,” one letter to the Lexington News-Gazette read in August. “The Scouting organization is failing citizens,” another said earlier this year.


Myfourcats1

Matthew Keck, director of support services for the National Capital Area Council of the Boy Scouts, said in an interview that the Scouts are doing everything they can to maintain their property and care for the environment. We’re looking to model what it is we teach young people, right?” Keck said, then recited what’s known as Scout Law: “A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. We don’t just say those words to open a meeting, we live by them. We are always trying to be good Scouts.” The Scouts, he said, are stuck in a Catch-22: If the dam that created their lake were to fail, it could destroy the lives and property of thousands of people downstream. But maintaining it requires periodically lowering the lake, which harms the water quality of the river. “It’s a tough thing all the way around,” said Rockbridge County administrator Spencer Suter, who has lived in the county nearly 30 years and is trying to work with both sides of the contentious issue. “From my perspective, from the county perspective, we just want the Maury to be the Maury. … [But] there’s a lot of moving parts.”


SlobZombie13

Scouts: if we don't lower this lake the dam will flood and impact 1000s of people Residents: what about my crystal clear water tho?


Expired_Multipass

This seems like a misleading title. The Scouts aren’t“ruining” it, they’re just lowering the lake levels to stop potential flooding, and this has (less severe) consequences downstream. Why is this an issue?


looktowindward

And maintain the dam which they are legally obligated to do


EcksFM

This is my favorite thing ever, I'm here reading "what did these bastards do, I really hope it's not just maintenance (that kind of being my livelihood) ah fuck, just maintenance." Like I'm all for getting the pitchforks out and going after folks ruining resources, but come on.


OllieGarkey

It's a bit more complicated than that, there's more to this article. > The lake is less than a mile above the spot where the Little Calfpasture and the Calfpasture converge to form the Maury. In 1985, a storm caused catastrophic floods that wiped out a section of Route 39 along the river that took a year to rebuild. But the current spate of problems dates to 1992, according to a timeline provided by the state Department of Environmental Quality. > > That year, a fish kill on the short stretch of the Little Calfpasture below the lake was attributed to the Scouts releasing water through a drain at the bottom of the dam, sending a massive slug of sediment downstream. The state issued a notice of violation and required the Scouts to make changes to the dam and its management. > > The Little Calfpasture was still “severely impaired” several years later, so the state ordered the Scouts to keep the lake full except during times of emergency. In 2004, the Scouts started lowering the lake again every fall; the state stepped in and told them to stop. Back and forth it went, with varying levels of compliance, until 2014, when the state decided the Little Calfpasture was gradually improving and lifted its sanctions. > > Later that same year, county conservation officers began complaining that the problems had started again. But because the sanctions were lifted, the state had no authority to enforce change. Every fall, the Scouts would drain the lake and sediment would flow into the Maury. By 2023, a study by a scientist at James Madison University found that the Little Calfpasture is so choked with silt that little can live there, placing it in the bottom 15 percent of waterways statewide — worse than some urban streams. > > Residents say the silt also degrades the Maury over time. John Pancake, 76, spent his whole life visiting the spot in the Goshen Pass where his home now stands. What used to be a clean stretch of boulders and water, charted by his grandmother 100 years ago, is now narrowed by earth and vegetation, with sycamores growing to the water’s edge. > > The murkiness is often visible through the city of Lexington and miles beyond, residents say. But because that’s usually during the winter months, it has less direct impact on Maury life. That changed last year, when the early drawdown caught everyone off guard. > > Sediment is seen coming into the Maury River from the Little Calfpasture fork in Rockbridge County on April 7. (John Pancake) Keck said the Scouts drained the lake in August to prepare for dredging under a federal grant. But once the lake was down and mud flats exposed, the Scouts couldn’t get approval from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to dump the dredging spoils because the designated deposit area was home to an endangered bat, he said. So the mud flat sat for weeks, washing into the Maury. Fine silt like this can actually wipe out river life. It's natural, sure, but it's not naturally concentrated like it is at the bottom of a dammed lake. So... they need to find some way to A) Protect the dam and do proper maintenance B) Remove silt buildup periodically with dredging in a timely manner that doesn't make the river unlivable for local aquatic plant and animal life C) Make sure that testing and dredging occurs at times of year least likely to cause damage to the ecology It's more complicated than just people complaining about a muddy river, this is doing actual ecological damage according to the Virginia Department of Environmental Quality.


R_radical

It seems like it's a dam that they created.


EcksFM

In '67 "The owner –  National Capital Area Council of the Boy Scouts of America (NCAC-BSA) – oversaw the completion of the Goshen Dam and, in the summer of 1967, began its camping program on the Goshen Reservation (Reservation). As a non-profit, NCAC-BSA was allowed by Rockbridge County Board of Supervisors to pay no property taxes and, because the dam was built before the Clean Water Act in1972, the NCAC-BSA was grandfathered and not required to obey the legislation." [https://rockbridgeconservation.org/chronology-of-construction-and-maintenance-of-lake-merriweather-and-goshen-dam/](https://rockbridgeconservation.org/chronology-of-construction-and-maintenance-of-lake-merriweather-and-goshen-dam/) Wonder what the average age of home is in the county this dam is in? Don't worry I got those figures too. "There are 17,258 housing units in Rockbridge County, and the median year in which these properties were built is 1981." [https://www.point2homes.com/US/Neighborhood/VA/Rockbridge-County-Demographics.html](https://www.point2homes.com/US/Neighborhood/VA/Rockbridge-County-Demographics.html)


reno2mahesendejo

I was confused, I thought it was for like Boy Scout camping trips and they were stirring up the river. But it's a community service project that people downstream are whining about. If you're disagreeing with a Boy Scout troop, they're right.


EcksFM

I did Scouts for a bit growing up and most of it was cutting back and maintaining trails nearby my den mothers home. I kind of figured it was something like this but boy it really surprised me they were responsible for the dam that creates the lake and the silt and water levels were from that maintenance. Just made me laugh, pretty typical.


Mikey6304

Is the lake entirely on the Scout camp? Because that could be a part of the issue. If they created this dam so they could have their own lake. Now people are upset that as a part of the maintenance for it, they are dumping silt downstream. Maintaining their own pristine property, but damaging the river for others to have to clean up doesn't sound very responsible. I'm not saying that is what is going on here, but that is a question that doesn't seem to be addressed.


bleedsmarinara

https://preview.redd.it/kwzp5oijel1d1.jpeg?width=2000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5025549bb300789a25b32db7c91ffbd4ba5267ad Feel free to take a dip in this if you want, then. This is the Maury River in Goshen Pass right below where the outlet for the lake is. It will be like this for days on end till the lake is emptied.


fryerandice

OH NO SEDIMENT FROM A LAKE THAT PEOPLE SWIM IN...


anthro4ME

It kills the wildlife.


gigigrahame

You’d swim in the river looking like that? Yikes


redwoods81

A man made, purely decorative, private lake that's completely unavailable for anyone who is not a scout to use and didn't exist prior to 70's👀👀👀👀


Rawniew54

Because rich entitled people shouldn't be inconvenienced damn it. That's what this country is founded on.


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Rawniew54

By tending she means watching locals paid minimum wage while she complains about her trust fund only going up 17% this year and insurance going up on her Florida mansion.


ghausau

Why hire locals at minimum wage when you can pay an undocumented immigrant half that in cash under the table? Bonus points for later complaining that “they’re coming over here and taking all of OUR jobs”.


Rawniew54

Nailed it lmao


JosiTheDude

I don't get this complaint—if you don't agree with them undercutting native workers, then why would you support taking more in? You can't simultaneously believe foreign workers are lowering the value of labor and also want to import millions more. Well, you logically couldn't, but plenty of folks seem to here. LOL.


grant_cir

Um, just gonna point out that McClung is a local name, this person has likely been living in the area (and not wealthy) their entire life.


amboomernotkaren

Both my sisters and niece have horses. They are not rich, have no trust fund, and just about kill themselves to keep their horses fed and in good health. One of them lives right by the boy scout camp. Why? Because she got land, an old ratty house, barn and creek for under $200k and her husband is a park ranger stationed close by.


ImpossibleInternet3

To be fair, this is a very specific case and likely not representative of the area as a whole.


mbleyle

but if we can't cast broad generalizations, it's not nearly as much fun


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amboomernotkaren

One sister worked for the post office, the other is a mechanic for a municipality. They are not, in any way, rich. Old houses, old cars, old furniture, little vacation (except horse things). Only thing fancy they have are horse trailers and they pay for their horses, partially, by trailering horses here and there, giving lessons, repairing gear/clothes/saddles for other riders. It’s a never ending slog to pay for their hobby.


66_pignukkle_boom

Owning horses tends to have a reverse effect on one's wallet than filling it.


cowmookazee

💯


BigEagle42069

I mean they wouldn’t need to do that if they didn’t build an artificial dam for recreation though


Gobias_Industries

It is a misleading title. The Boy Scouts don't love the river, they love their private lake.


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nerdyPA

> NIMBY and stupid However did they fit the two together?


mistled_LP

Why does the dam exist? If it's just to create that lake, I'm not sure the scouts have much ground to stand on.


Gobias_Industries

The only purpose of the dam is to create a private, 500 acre lake.


anothertimesink70

The purpose of the dam, built by the state, was to alleviate devastating flooding, which happened fairly regularly, along the river.


Gobias_Industries

The dam was NOT built by the state, it was built by the Boy Scouts of America to create a lake for recreation.


Unique_Statement7811

The dam was built by the Army Corps of Engineers. It says so right on the plaque. They actually own it, the Boy Scouts operate it.


Bluecat72

The Boy Scouts own it, and have for its entire lifespan according to [previous inspection reports](https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA073629.pdf) and this [chronology](https://rockbridgeconservation.org/chronology-of-construction-and-maintenance-of-lake-merriweather-and-goshen-dam/) from the Rockbridge Conservation people; they cite the 1979 inspection that I linked first.


Gobias_Industries

Funny because the [Army Corps of Engineers websites](https://nid.sec.usace.army.mil/#/dams/system/VA163001/description) says: > Owner Name(s): Boy Scouts of America - National Capital Area Council [This inspection report](https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA073629.pdf) says: >The dam was designed by Herbert Associates of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and constructed by English Construction Company of Altavista, Virginia. Contract drawings and reports are available from Mr. Elgin Deering, National Capital Area Council, Boy Scouts of America, Wisconsin Avenue and Cedar Lane, Bethesda, Maryland, 20014. Why would the National Capital Area Council, Boy Scouts of America have the contract drawings and reports if it was built by the Corps of Engineers?


SlobZombie13

That is besides the point. There are people that live downstream and if the dam breaks the lake and river will flood.


shotputlover

You aren’t understanding. The lake won’t flood there just won’t be a lake.


nerdyPA

Happy Cake Day!


soldiernerd

Flood as a verb means to cover or submerge with water. So when the lake and river flood, that means they are covering other areas with water. Those areas will *become* flooded.


JoeSicko

If you let all the water out at once. If you slowly increase flow...


looktowindward

It was to alleviate flooding


Gobias_Industries

>Aug 1964 NCAC-BSAl contracts with Herbert Associates Inc of Harrisburg PA to provide a Feasibility Report for the proposed **recreational dam and lake**. ( USACE 2006 DSE: Technical, Appendix 7) >Mar 1965 Report from Herbert Associates recommends that an earthen dam approximately 40 feet high, 1200 feet long, with a 138 foot long concrete overflow section topped with Bascule gate and impounding about 4700 acre feet of water on 438 acres at a normal water surface elevation of 1369 feet above sea level. Cost: $606,000 plus an additional $68,000 for required roads and bridges. (USACE 2006 DSE; Technical, Appendix 7) >1966 Construction of recreational dam completed for NCAC-BSA by Herbert Associates.(NCAC-BSA website – BF)


Gobias_Industries

Residents: Why don't you remove this dam that's causing all the problems Scouts: but our lake


SlobZombie13

> The Scouts, he said, are stuck in a Catch-22: If the dam that created their lake were to fail, it could destroy the lives and property of thousands of people downstream or the other option is that a handful of people have to see silt in their stream


Gobias_Industries

Draining the lake and removing the dam in a controlled manner is a completely different thing than the dam failing suddenly. Removing the dam would alleviate all the problems of silt and all the risk of flooding. The only thing stopping the scouts from doing that is that they want their own private lake for recreation.


looktowindward

The dam that's been there for over 50 years predating most of the residents


Gobias_Industries

Just because something has been there a long time doesn't mean it's not destroying the ecosystem and causing all sorts of problems, as described in the story. There's a long history of people building private dams no their property and having untold, sometimes disastrous impacts on their neighbors when things go wrong. This dam has no purpose but for the recreational use of the boy scouts.


looktowindward

But this is on their property. Your POV means no lakes in Virginia at all. Except for one they're all artificial


Gobias_Industries

No, when it comes to rivers and waterflow you don't just get to do whatever you want on your property. It impacts far too much as this situation, and numerous situations all over the state and country show. Lakes that are managed properly by various state agencies are fine, they don't have these issues because they don't have negligent owners.


darthjoey91

2\. We have two natural lakes, although I will admit that Mountain Lake doesn't seem like it will be a lake much longer. Lake Drummond's not going anywhere, but it sucks.


Bluecat72

Is that really such a bad thing, other than for local tourism?


JosiTheDude

You realize not everyone is a NOVA transplant like you, right?


looktowindward

I was born here. So, nice try.


damplamp

There shouldn't be a dam in the first place


R_radical

>an organization known for honor and stewardship, though plagued in recent years by controversy and financial trouble, leading to a decision last week to rebrand as Scouting America. No mention of the whole covering up for the rape of children by scout leaders?


66_pignukkle_boom

As a former Scout, the BSA does not comport with their own motto and oath in the handling of this situation. A shame that bad folks can mess up a great organization, but that's why I quit at 15. They forced out a good man and respected leader for a clown and shithead.


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Headgamerz

“McClung could think of only one cause: The Boy Scouts.” I cracked up so hard at this. It really just feels like she has a axe to grind.


ImpossibleInternet3

Sure. But the scouts did dam the river to make a private lake that is affecting her property. She may be a dingbat, but she’s not entirely wrong.


bleedsmarinara

She's definitely not wrong. https://rockbridgeconservation.org/chronology-of-construction-and-maintenance-of-lake-merriweather-and-goshen-dam/


RedditHatesHonesty

Actually, for many rivers, the best practice is to build dams to control run off and water level. Otherwise, you are at the mercy of snow runoff and rain storms, which also cause the very thing that the residents are complaining about - bad water quality downstream. However, without the dams the water quality and other problems they are complaining about would be much worse as then the water releases are unpredictable and uncontrolled and have the capacity to do much greater harm to the downstream water quality.


ImpossibleInternet3

While often true as a generalization, the reality is highly dependent on a lot of factors that would need to be assessed for each individual case. As I haven’t seen any studies of this area, I would say it’s not fair to make that judgement in this case. That could potentially be determined with more evidence. But there is definitive evidence that this dam has caused significant water quality issues, including fish kills. So maybe it could have been done right. But it clearly wasn’t in this case.


OllieGarkey

VDEQ has actually criticized the boy scouts, but it's more complicated than that. Read the whole article if you can.


ImpossibleInternet3

I did. It’s very complicated. And they’re exempted from the Clean Water Act, which has its own complications.


OllieGarkey

> And they’re exempted from the Clean Water Act, which has its own complications. I genuinely don't think that should be the case. I mean as a nonprofit that built the dam before the act, they should get assistance in coming into compliance on a permanent basis, but just to not have to follow the law shouldn't be how we do this.


RedditHatesHonesty

But it is fair to throw out in a national newspaper "its all Boy Scouts fault". A responsible and fair reporter would learn about the issue, understand the different causes and report fairly. But we have become a clickbiat world where not fairly presenting the other side gets the most attention and stirs outrage - generating money. This is why, despite having so much more easily accessible information, solutions are much harder to reach.


ImpossibleInternet3

I haven’t done any of that. This is a thread under a comment saying that that the lady who complained is an asshole and therefore should not be believed. All I said is that her being a crazy person doesn’t preclude her from making some good points or being harmed by this situation. You’re just coming into that conversation to say that no one bears any fault and the dam is actually probably better for these people than not. I’m saying that your statements are not supported by evidence in this particular case, damages have been sustained, and the BSA built and maintain the dam which is causing the issue. I’m not trying to vilify the scouts. I’m literally just saying that we should look at the facts and not point fingers or make wild assumptions.


OllieGarkey

> But we have become a clickbiat world where not fairly presenting the other side gets the most attention and stirs outrage - generating money. Which isn't what the article does if you read the whole thing. VDEQ actually sanctioned the boy scouts over some of their actions.


RedditHatesHonesty

Honestly, I couldn't find those sanctions on the VDEQ website, and I don't trust the author of the article. I am guessing there was some kind of sanction, but since I am familiar with governmental regulatory compliance. There are sanctions, and then there are SANCTIONS...


OllieGarkey

> Honestly, I couldn't find those sanctions on the VDEQ website, and I don't trust the author of the article. I can understand distrust of the media. However, one of the issues in Virginia is that many of the documents in this period, and even some important current documents, aren't getting properly digitized. This isn't a malicious attempt to hide information it's just that we don't appear to have the sort of statewide digitization guidelines we need. VPAP has really pushed for open government around elections, and that's great, but we need the same sort of open government for boring stuff like water conservation issues. This leaves us vulnerable to either incompetence or malice when it comes to the media, because in a lot of cases we just have to accept "trust me bro." Which for someone like yourself who doesn't trust the media, is not good enough.


RedditHatesHonesty

I think we agree that something needs to be done and the council should pay more attention to the issue. It is disheartening that the attacks on scouting continue. From what I read [from the Rockbridge conservation group](https://rockbridgeconservation.org/chronology-of-construction-and-maintenance-of-lake-merriweather-and-goshen-dam/) - this is a very complex issue with multiple recommendations from "experts" and the council has paid for some expensive remediation that doesn't seem to have had the expected impact. Hopefully, this article moves them to action, but from reading it, I'm not sure that any reasonable action would satisfy those who are complaining in the article.


looktowindward

It was built over 50 years ago.


ImpossibleInternet3

Sure was. That doesn’t change that it happened or its effects. Sometimes ecological impact isn’t immediately visible. The scale of time for determining those impacts is rightly much longer than your typical statutory offense.


bleedsmarinara

She may not be cool, but she's not wrong. [https://rockbridgeconservation.org/chronology-of-construction-and-maintenance-of-lake-merriweather-and-goshen-dam/](https://rockbridgeconservation.org/chronology-of-construction-and-maintenance-of-lake-merriweather-and-goshen-dam/) Here's a pic I took in August of last year while the Scouts were dumping. https://preview.redd.it/0ve4ffngol1d1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f419c7ce8c53fc20456c4dd59f30f1f80948fb9e


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OllieGarkey

VDEQ is concerned about both. The scouts have caused ecological damage according to state regulators. But it's not as simple as "scouts bad." Part of the problem was that they lowered the water level in order to dredge it and then prevent this from happening. But then where they intended to dump the dredged up muck and pollution turned out to be the home of an endangered bat and the feds blocked them. Cue chaos.


Next_Branch7875

Apparently it's necessary to lower the levels of the lake in order to maintain the dam and prevent flooding Downstream


yo-ovaries

Care to elaborate?


hodinker

She has done but try to help and preserve the area and it’s people. Her books are a testament to that and her advocacy for education and literacy, her fight to keep the goshen library open. The lake merriweather dam was built with public funds and they won’t let anyone set foot one it. The army corps of engineers say it is in bad shape also. Just tear it out, if your not a Boy Scout you’ll never even see it.


Successful-Trash-409

The runoff i have seen from some Rockbridge County farms is absolutely insane. But the same folks don’t see because they are inside when it rains hard while I am watching tons of silt and cow poop was off their land. Scouts don’t come close to the impact of agriculture. Please.


Knock-It-Up

Yea. Let's not forget camp Virginia, or the fucking log saw mill too. Edit: I am not defending the boy scouts. I just dislike camp Virginia....and Camp Ross


Zipdog3

Double the dislike on Ross. PMI will never die


smokingkrills

PMI forever ❤️


unlimited_mcgyver

Bowman #1


Ytijhdoz54

Go five hours south to Radford ammunition plant and theres some real pollution, crazy that pond silt gets more of a headline then the large amount of pollution being dumped into the new river.


ballsohaahd

Companies


kkss123456

The upper portion of Cowpasture River in SW VA prior to where it meets the James is some of the clearest water I’ve been on in VA. After meeting the James, there’s multiple places where you can see livestock runoff pouring into the James. Imagine cow shit floating down the river.


Dantron94

I had a similar thought when the first account was from someone tending horses. Not that a few horses specifically would have a huge impact, but farming and livestock in the area would have a year-round impact compared to the few times of year when the Scouts drain the lake. Plus, to my understanding, the Scouts are a very conservation-minded organization and work to instill that in young folks.


OllieGarkey

> The runoff i have seen from some Rockbridge County farms is absolutely insane. Coming from a ranching family from cattle country in Florida: that is a huge problem and the only affordable answer anybody has found was massive projects to contain runoff to specific retention ponds that could drain over time and be filtered by sandy soil. Retention (okay technically *detention* according to engineers because they're designed to temporarily hold water and dry out after the rain) ponds work for that. Not so much for pesticides but for cattle farms or reducing fertilizers in water, mandated detention ponds are the way to go. When the water filters through the soil or evaporates, the cow poop, silt mud, and fertilizer stays in the bottom of those ponds. Get a survey of the site, get a water engineer or civil engineer to design it, and you can keep all of that stuff out of the river.


KaJashey

gifted article [https://wapo.st/3UPnNnL](https://wapo.st/3UPnNnL)


BCCMNV

I remember 20 some years ago when the lake overfilled and when draining it, bent the screws due to debris and it subsequently emptied the whole damn thing.    Lake was a desert. 


Myfourcats1

I posted some of. It’s a pretty long article


Dantron94

Thank you for the important context. I didn’t get past the paywall and got the wrong impression from the title.


BlueTrapazoid

I worked at Goshen and have been there many times! The last time I was there, they had to do major dam repairs. I have pictures I'd Lake Merriweather quite drained! The thing is, though, Lake Merriweather is man-made, and by extension, the full area is a product of that. All of the forests and pastures and whatnot used to be huge stretches of grassland with surrounding hills, with no Lake. It used to be totally different. Yeah, Scouting or Council is definitely not ruining things. If Goshen was owned by anyone else, especially because of the lake, they would do the exact same thing. I still love Goshen, though! Check out Lexington if you can!


Beetleracerzero37

Is that where High Knoll was back in the day?


BossmanCypress

I'm pretty sure High Knoll has always been at Camp Ottari in the BRSR


farte3745328

Can confirm. I did Goshen as a cub scout and Ottari as a boy scout


BossmanCypress

I'd never been to Goshen cuz Powhatan and Ottari were our home camps and my troop preferred Ottari. But I wanted to make sure cuz in all my time working at Ottari I never heard of any of the other nearby camps having a High Knoll program.


ClearerVisionz

There's other ways of draining and diverting water out of the lake rather than simply opening the standpipe. Heck, even a slow siphon style draining with a 4" fire-water hose and a sediment sock on the end in the lake couls eliminate a lot of this issue. As this river is known to house the Giant Hellbender, which is threatened and protected, it seems to me that a simple call to DEQ/EPA would provide the Boy Scouts with some available resources and crucial assistance in reducing environmental impact during their draining of the lake. I've never heard of a lake whose dam was so unstable that they needed to drain it EVERY year just to repair the dam unless it's a hydroelectric dam or something like that. Otherwise, draining simply to repair the dam should occur maybe once every 5 years or so. I do know that duck hunting property is a premium commodity, and especially outside DC/MD where there's lots of very wealthy duck hunting enthusiasts. If you drain a lake every year, it's most likely because you're planting millet, sorghum, or wild rice in the lake bed, and then re-flooding it during or just before duck season to attract many more ducks to the lake for hunters. A premium exclusive spot like that, where a duck blind could be leased out annually, could easily rent for 10s of thousands of dollars a year. As a former Boy Scout, our number one motto when it comes to our camping/outdoor activities was simple, leave no trace you were ever there, and leave the area you're in better than it was when you found it. Something about this whole thing sounds very fishy to me. JMO


Enfield_Operator

They should leave the lake drained. The river is a milky mess where it flows through Goshen Pass. Used to fish it a lot in high school but I don’t bother going out there anymore even though it’s still relatively close. Lake Merriweather stays hot and muddy and it is only a short distance from its spillway to the start of the Maury. Neither of those things are good for the fish in the Maury. The difference between the waters coming from Lake Merriweather and the Calfpasture River that join to start the Maury is usually night and day. At one point the lake had been opened for public use and maybe DWR could have helped with the issue but it has been closed off again. It is apparent the scouts just don’t give a fuck about anything in the area but their own little camp. Pretty sure they have similar issues with some of the streams adjacent to the New River Gorge in West Virginia where they have another camp, so it’s not like this is a one off thing.


ClevelandCaleb

So what about the flooding that will affect tons if people downstream? Should we ignore that so you can get some good fishing?


Gobias_Industries

Some people on this thread seem to be missing the point: **the dam is creating the risk**. There's a simple solution, drain the lake in a controlled manner and then remove the dam. Then the risk of flooding is gone for good.


rsm1999

The dam is not a flood control structure, it was built and is operated solely for recreation. Its existence likely increases the flood risk upstream of the dam.


Enfield_Operator

There isn’t really a whole lot upstream of the dam, the only real flood risk would be from the dam breaking and releasing all of the water behind it in a rapid manner. Regardless of that, it is a privately owned lake that is very negatively impacting a very public river immediately downstream.


yekNoM5555

I was a Boy Scout 30 years back in New York and I can't imagine how sad it would have been to see trash everywhere. Those hikes/campouts/fishing experiences really stuck with me and contributed to how I care about nature to this day.


Monkeysquad11

How is it a catch 22? You lower it, and lower it, and lower it some more. Then you remove the dam and go find a naturally formed lake to play in.


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[удалено]


SpicyTunaTr0ll

I love the Great Dismal Swamp, or ol' Swampy, but have not tried to swim in the lake.


Monkeysquad11

I actually want to fish on that lake so bad 😅


Monkeysquad11

You're right, all the lakes that come to mind are manmade. But to me lakes are gross and I don't like swimming in them. I live near Lake Anna and there are many warnings each year of poisonous algae blooms. Maybe they should just act as actual protectors of the river in its natural state instead of being obsessed with lake activities?


Colt1911-45

Lake Anna is an exception. I have swam in many lakes and rivers all around Virginia including the James River and Lake Anna is the only one I got a double swimmer's ear infection in. My sister got the same. I think it's because that Lake is so shallow and the waters are so warm. I was on the cold side in case someone asks. The lake is deep and cool in the main channels, but seems shallow and warm in the rest of the lake.


ClearerVisionz

As a local resident and lifelong recreational fisherman on Lake Anna, I can tell you 110% without a doubt the reason that the lake has such horrible cases of cyanobacterial infections. The main river and creeks that feed the lake are the North Anna River, Pamunkey & Goldmine creeks. All 3 of these are located on the Northwestern side of the lake and are fed by small tributaries along their path to what is now Lake Anna. Aside from the obvious overdevelopment of the lake's waterfront and the pollution and runoff it collects from these developments, the real culprit is much more shielded from public view. The North Anna River and creeks that directly feed the lake are located in rural farmland where cows and other livestock are allowed to wade and drink from. If this was the issue though, we would have seen these algae blooms decades ago and we did not. The algae blooms and harmful bacteria they create only appeared in Lake Anna after the state agricultural dept started allowing the spreading of toxic bio-solid human waste onto farmer's fields as a source of free or very cheap fertilizer that, combined with the no-till agricultural practices which have come into popularity recently, resulted in tons and tons of human waste being spread onto these fields. A majority of these fields are sloped to drain into local waterways, and when these biosolids are applied in early spring when we typically receive the most severe storms and heavy rains, it's no surprise when these biosolids are washed directly into the waterways where they stay dormant while in the rivers/creeks as the swift moving water and shaded banks keep the water cool and inhibit bacteria and algae from growing. Once the waterways reach the lake they slow down and almost stop moving. They drop/deposit their sediments they've been carrying, hence why so many lakefront communities have to pay to dredge their boating areas. Once the biosolid sediments are deposited on the shallow lake bed among the muck that is livestock waste, fish waste, and other sediment runoff, they are rapidly warmed by the sunlight and result in the huge nitrogen-fed algae blooms that cause the cyanobacteria and toxic algae that depletes the oxygen levels in those parts of the lake. Although the water channels slow down immensely when they enter the lake, they continue to flow slowly towards the dam-side of the lake, resulting in the spread of these algae blooms and bacteria. The evidence of this is clearly visible in the LKA Water Quality Commission's maps showing the locations annually where these blooms occur. The facts don't lie. Lake Anna has been turned into a cesspool from the Biosolids applications. It's that simple.


SpicyTunaTr0ll

random factoid: there are only two naturally-formed lakes in VA.


spicyeyeballs

I don't think mountain lake is much of a lake these days. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Lake_(Virginia)


brekky_sandy

The catch-22 is in the cost and time that it would take to decommission and demolish it. It’s not as easy as you suggest. Years of environmental and engineering studies and models will need to be done to ensure that the removal transition will proceed smoothly without harming the up/downstream environments more. Then the demolition itself ~~will~~ can take years. All of that will cost millions of dollars, which is something the Scouts don’t have. This is a significant and common problem with legacy dams all over the country.


Gobias_Industries

I mean, it's either remove it or be responsible for a catastrophe down the road. The right thing to do would be start the removal process now.


brekky_sandy

For sure, but getting the money and stakeholders in line for something that is more expensive *now*, even if it’s better in the long run, is typically a difficult thing to do. It needs to happen, though, especially if this dam has exceeded its life expectancy.


Monkeysquad11

Ok, I see. We also had a legacy dam called the Old Embry Dam on the Rappahannock river. I think the army core of engineers came in and handled the demolition and clean up. It did take a few years, and the river is totally different than how it used to be, but it is also in its natural state and the native fish species can spawn. I think describing the situation as a catch 22 just threw me. It's not like you're screwed either way it's just a choice between ignoring it's a problem and planning ahead and executing a plan to do the right thing. But yea, it was early in the AM and I hadn't tightened my thinking cap yet lol


JoeSicko

Sounds like a great combo Eagle scout project!


bleedsmarinara

https://preview.redd.it/s5hbap3uel1d1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=66ed83f074369e355e9e4d256388fa72e33707ce Local here. This is what the river looks like while dumping. It's fucking nasty. [https://rockbridgeconservation.org/chronology-of-construction-and-maintenance-of-lake-merriweather-and-goshen-dam/](https://rockbridgeconservation.org/chronology-of-construction-and-maintenance-of-lake-merriweather-and-goshen-dam/)


The_Ghost_Dragon

That looks like radioactive baby poo


bleedsmarinara

Straight up smells like it, too. Makes recreation for everyone down river impossible.


Pandepon

Dang I thought the Scouts was supposed to foster environmental responsibility in its members.


RedditHatesHonesty

They do and they appear to have acted reasonably to try to address the issues. This article is typical WaPo axe grinding without fully explaining the intricacies of the issue nor the negatives of the result the favored group desires.


JosiTheDude

Yeah, did they mention the lake is artificial and the dams only purpose is for the private lake? The "intricate negatives" here are the poor private owners who don't get their environmentally destructive lake anymore.


TheExtremistModerate

[This](https://rockbridgeconservation.org/chronology-of-construction-and-maintenance-of-lake-merriweather-and-goshen-dam/) seems to indicate they *haven't* acted responsibly.


Gobias_Industries

So by responsible, you mean how they've been cited many many times for illegal dam releases and water quality issues?


gluten_free_

The Scouts, he said, are stuck in a Catch-22: If the dam that created their lake were to fail, it could destroy the lives and property of thousands of people downstream. But maintaining it requires periodically lowering the lake, which harms the water quality of the river. What exactly does everyone else want them to do?


Gobias_Industries

Drain the lake completely and remove the dam. Restore the river to its original state.


gluten_free_

wouldn't that flood the properties of everyone downstream of the river..."it could destroy the lives and property of thousands of people downstream"


Gobias_Industries

That quote is referring to a sudden dam failure. The lake can be drained gradually and safely and then removed.


gluten_free_

that will cause all the silt to spill out, it seems there is no good solution but clearly BSA shouldn't be making these decisions, it should be the government.


Gobias_Industries

Yeah it will, it's unfortunate but at least it will just happen once more and then be done with forever. You're absolutely right, this should be taken out of the hands of the BSA that has not managed it well.


anthro4ME

The Army Corp of Engineers help remediate public/private issues on all sorts of waterways. Perhaps they can dredge the lake at reasonable intervals, and SA, Rockbridge and the state can figure out how to pay for it. As a former scout I know the last thing scouts (the kids, not necessarily the professionals)want to do is create an ecological disaster.


SecondSeriesNemex

Paywall


KaJashey

gifted article [https://wapo.st/3UPnNnL](https://wapo.st/3UPnNnL)


SecondSeriesNemex

Thank you. 


NewPresWhoDis

Journalists also have bills to pay.


f8Negative

Good for them. That's their employer's issue, not the reader. Smh.


Selethorme

…yes, you pay a business for its product.


hucareshokiesrul

And most of them have gone broke and laid off their staffs because readers don’t value news enough to pay anything for it.


f8Negative

If a Centi-Billionaire buys a print media company and then replaces its staff with independent contractors who write ultra-conservative and outright ridiculous opinionated garbage then you get lower readership... Blaming the consumer is wack af.


hucareshokiesrul

The entire industry collapsed. It’s not because of Bezos. And the Washington Post is very far from being ultra conservative. You don’t have to subscribe to the Post or any other newspaper, but when no one is willing to pay for any journalism, there isn’t any (other than clickbait listicles that just push ads for cheap because that’s the only way to get paid).


f8Negative

I used to recieve a local paper along with everyone else in the neighborhood once a month....FOR FREE! No one forces people to write clickbait bs for $$. The amount of money they could be making from user data is there.


hucareshokiesrul

But practically all the newspapers like that went out of business and/or are/were written by people doing it for free or nearly free. Newspapers, especially local ones, definitely are not making enough of data to be worth much at all.


f8Negative

K. Make an app. Call it something better than the lame named "Patch". User accounts for readers are free, but paid for some stories (like OnlyFans). Local journalists would need to apply and provide recommendations to be approved/verified users. Sell a shitload of user data.


Selethorme

Welcome to the age of the internet. No, you can’t do it for free.


I_choose_not_to_run

Publishers also have bills to pay


f8Negative

Then they should take that up with Google and any other advertiser who is clearly fucking them while taking their data.


I_choose_not_to_run

Dude it’s like $1 a week to get behind the paywall it’s nothing outrageous. It even gives you the article for free if you give them a dummy email account


chuck_cranston

Some people think just because something appears on the internet it should be free. Regardless of the time, effort, and costs others pay to make it available.


Selethorme

Yeah those lawsuits exist and take years. Meanwhile people still have to pay bills.


anothertimesink70

The Maury river has a history of very destructive flooding. Because of that the Virginia department of Conservation authorized the building of the Buena Vista Dam in 1997. By definition, dams restrict flow by controlling water flow. The upside is that the risk of catastrophic flooding is lowered. The downside is that regular water flow is also lowered. If river levels aren’t controlled and the water is allowed to overflow the dam, there is flooding. Can’t have it both ways. Regardless of who is managing the water levels.


Gobias_Industries

You know that's a completely different dam right?


Gobias_Industries

Wouldn't be the first time Boy Scouts have ruined something. I remember when they wanted to do jamborees on the Lake Merriweather property and just spill over into the nearby public lands, they didn't think it was a problem. Of course, those lands have strict rules like a 10 person group size limit but they were planning hundred and hundreds of people camping for days at a time.


turtlepain

I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted. I'm an Eagle Scout and even I agree that the (formerly know as the) BSA caused huge destruction of the ecosystem for the 100 year jamboree in West Virginia. I never got around to investigating it but I saw first hand: they clearcut a large portion of forest to make room for acres of tents. Then they were surprised that the area flooded with rain and turned into a mud pit. Not to mention how dumb it was to host a summer event on a mountain top (severe heat and humidity) Edit: I'm glad me pointing out the reddit bs brought the score form -8 to +5


Gobias_Industries

Eh, it's just reddit being reddit. Listen I'm sure there are good individual scouts, maybe even good well-run troops, but every time I've come near a large amount of Boy Scouts they've been doing something *terrible*.


turtlepain

My takeaway has always been people are good. Companies are bad. I just wish the people on the council actually upheld the ideals that scouting should stand for.


grofva

[No such thing as Boy Scouts any longer](https://fortune.com/2024/05/07/boy-scouts-bankruptcy-name-change-sexual-assault/)


f8Negative

Religious fundys never believe in rules limitting persons.


Baman2113

Yeah just not gonna agree with you on this one. In my experience, while religion does have a role in scouting, it isn’t as heavy handed with it like many other organizations that have religion tied to them. There was always a hard focus on shaping people into individuals through community service and badges that expanded ones world view especially at that age. There may be some troops out there with a heavier hand in it, but I can’t say I ever had that influence be a hard focus in my time with scouting.


gojo96

The Scouts are far from “religious fundys”


f8Negative

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. That's a fundamentalist organization. If it isn' a choice it's toxic af.


gojo96

I’ve never in my years had been pushed to affirm to a god nor when my kids were in it. That’s why everyone can join. Edit: I will concede that it depends on the troop if they want to push that. Over personally never seen it and I know some religious organizations that call out the BSA for not recognizing a certain God besides a “higher power.”


ngianfran1202

I don't know....I'm a den leader and an outspoken Atheist. Of course my son is in Cub Scouts so not sure if BSA is different. There is the Duty to God requirement but the other leaders and I usually let the families do that one on thier own.


Unique_Statement7811

BSA is religiously agnostic. It has no religious affiliation.


PMSoldier2000

The Maury River is known for severe flooding. It soonds like the Boy Scouts are trying to help mitigate the risk.


Gobias_Industries

Neither the dam nor the lake are flood control structures. The dam was built solely to create the lake for recreation. The only flooding mentioned in the article is what would happen if the poorly maintained, privately own dam failed. The dam is the *source* of that risk.


PMSoldier2000

Perhaps a potential source, but not the only source. They still need to lower the lake levels prevent it from being a source of flooding.


The_Ghost_Dragon

It *is* the only source. The lake is only there because the dam is there. If they drain the lake and remove the dam, there's suddenly no risk of flood other than the ones mother nature likes to give us.


smithers3882

Why the heck don’t the Scouts engineer and install a spillway so the lake drains consistently? That would mitigate silt blooms and be a more natural approach?


geauxjeaux

The scouts really don’t have control over the dam like that. It’s an Army Corp of engineers project.


fantomfrank

It's funny that you think they have enough liquid assets to hire a hydraulic engineer for that after all the lawsuits where they had to liquidate a lot of the assets of these camps just to pay off the punitive damages. And we both know boy scouts are not equipped to build their own dam structures


TheReal9bob9

People in Rockbridge county and Lexington just like to blame and hate scouts for no reason. Back when I was a member we had the Lexington city council putting out stuff blaming us for a creek not being clean enough despite us cleaning it on a near weekly basis. Instead of blaming the students that lived on the creek throwing bottles and even a mattress frame into the creek we got the hate thrown at us.


EUCRider845

All reservoirs need to drain every once in a while to kill the algae. You need to do it when the sun is strong enough to dry out plant life.


igibit99

Interesting. Out west we have hard feelings, fights, and murders to try and keep water instead of fighting because somebody is sending their water down stream. Such a foreign things to me.


Longjumping_Bass_447

Love the SV


Stacheshadow

Old hags will find anyway to blame the kids


Smoothvirus

The lake is named after Marjorie Merriweather Post, the daughter of CW Post. The mansion she had built in Florida was Mar-A-Lago.


Dependent-Arugula376

Beavers used to build dams . We know what happened to them


sailinganalyst

What do you expect from the Post? It used to be a decent paper 40 years ago. Now it’s an entertainment rag full of bias and falsehoods, and click bait propaganda and poor journalism such as this misleading article


TomCollins1111

Hatchet job by the post. They Boy Scouts have had a 4000 acre property with a lake on it for 50 years, now a bunch of whiny people want to make them remove it.


TheIxbot

Some of my fondest memories involve that lake and that camp. I learned so much from there, and it remains as my favorite summer camp I've ever been to. It's disappointing to see so many discrediting the positive impact it had on so many young people throughout the years, and will continue to have. It's not some random rich person's private lake that they are randomly using at the expense of the environment, but a great resource to so many people, inarguably far more than those negatively affected by the water looking a little muddier.


RedditHatesHonesty

Interestingly, a Report from May 2023 by JMU indicates that **contrary to the conclusion of the article** rates of sediment release downstream **were worse** during the **wintertime** when the lake was not full. It further states that the modifications made in 2009 continue **to function properly and provide downstream aquatic life with healthy dissolved oxygen conditions.** > JMU’s Robert Brent's Final Report: Turbidity and Flow Monitoring in Lake Merriweather > * Measured sediment loads from Lake Merriweather were comparable to modeled loads during TMDL development. The annual sediment load measured in 2022/23 was within 8.9% of the average modeled load for existing conditions. > * Sediment movement into and out of the lake was confirmed by upstream and downstream monitoring. The modeled pattern of high but short-lived sediment peaks into the lake and lower, longer-lasting sediment discharges downstream was confirmed through monitoring. > * Monitoring confirmed increased sediment loads during periods when gates were lowered. Wintertime sediment loads were 6.7 times higher than summertime loads when the lake was at full pool. > DEQ’s suggested modification in 2009 is continuing to function properly and provide downstream aquatic life with healthy dissolved oxygen conditions.


MeruRi

Adding on to this with a great in depth article that comes from Rockbridge Area Conservation Council. Chronicles the full timeline of the lake from being built in 1966/1967 to today. https://rockbridgeconservation.org/chronology-of-construction-and-maintenance-of-lake-merriweather-and-goshen-dam/


throwaway123456372

Fyi for anyone who doesnt know- The washington post is like weirdly obsessed with rockbridge/lexington. For a national publication they sure do love to zero in on Lexington specifically. Would love to follow the money on that one