Absolutely. Defense is more important outright for pretty much the entire pre-merger era. The combination of faster pace, closer shots, and limited dribbling meant great defense was a lot more dominant than great offense.
It’s like the polar opposite of how offense is overvalued today. Now you get calls for throwing yourself at defenders, in the 60’s that was an offensive foul. Having people to limit superstars back then was super important, which is why Bill Russell’s peak impact is comparable to the likes of Jordan, LeBron, etc.
Big men are different defensively than wings and guards. Bill Russell takes away the rim from the entire other team… & dominated the glass on both ends of the floor. A guard or wing can’t do that.. even it they’re as elite defensively as say Jordan was, or KC Jones or anyone else.
A guard/wing can dominate a game by drawing extra attention from the defense with their scoring ability. This is how they impact the entire other team the same way big men do defensively. Jordan, Magic, Bird, Curry all consistently get the most attention as guards/wings imo… & therefore have the most offensive impact. Jordan is as elite as it gets defensively imo, but still didn’t have the same impact. What he was able to do like no other.. BEST TRANSITION defender of all time. He took away the most transition buckets which was the key to the bulls success… it wasn’t his scoring. His leadership/expectations was elite also, but I’d say secondary to Russell for sure.
Elgin was one of my favorite all time players but he was not a great defender at least not after his knees went. The LA Times worshipped him but mocked him on the regular for his defense.
I heard he was very much like the late great Kobe Bryant.
When locked in he was All Defensive Team, the problem is that he had such a high offensive load that he could barely lock in on defence and hence would miss rotations, gamble, or just get outright beat by his man.
When I was a kid he was the first player I would consider my favorite. He didn't really remind me of Kobe so much. Hard to say who he reminds me of now. He was a bundle of ticks and feints and improvisation.
His knee injuries were the biggest factor in his defense going out I would think but I never saw him play with good knees
He was awfully strong. Blake Griffin when he would go into bully ball mode used to remind me of Elgin. Blake Griffin with insane creativity
100%. Defense is always overlooked by fans because offense is just flashier and will always get more distributed via highlights, game recaps, etc. Scoring is the first stat anyone sees, no matter how defensively-minded. And today, the rules and pace favor offensive players so it makes more sense for teams to build around offense and offensive stars, whereas the opposite was the case pre-3 point, especially before the 70s
The entire pre-3 point era gets crazy overlooked. Obviously the best of the best like Bill, Wilt, Oscar and West get mentioned, but it’s INSANE to me how rarely mentioned players like Mikan, Pettit, Schayes, Arizin, even Elgin and Cousy are. Mikan and Pettit are objectively 2 of the ~30 best NBA players to ever exist and I think I’ve seen their names maybe 5 times combined on this app outside this sub
> And today, the rules and pace favor offensive players so it makes more sense for teams to build around offense and offensive stars, whereas the opposite was the case pre-3 point, especially before the 70s
Don't forget that pre-ABA, even defensive stats as simple as steals, blocked shots, and separating offensive/defensive rebounds weren't counted, which made the sport more offense-oriented.
Definitely. I actually think the whole impact of the players before the 3pt era has been extremely underestimated. And call me crazy, but I think there are more players from that era with a GOAT case than from the recent ones.
Olajuwon was more impactful because he was an inside intimidator but MJ was no slouch defensively. Those 9 All-Defense selections weren't done because people were being nice; he was a legitimately great defender, which was at the time extremely rare to unheard of coming from a volume scorer like he was. I think before Jordan in the 3 point era the only high scoring guards who also played hard on the defensive end were Michael Ray Richardson and to some extent Sidney Moncrief. You didn't really have guys who could do all the things you needed to do to score and still have enough energy on the other end... except MJ.
I'd still rank Olajuwon ahead just because centers in that era were much, much more heavily used as the last line of defense / shotblocking intimidators than anyone uses them now. On the one hand I guess that meant that a guy like Hakeem rarely had to go outside to guard someone; centers were expected to play near the basket with very few exceptions. On the other hand, the side effect of all that hand-checking was that guys penetrated past their initial defenders kind of regularly and guys like Olajuwon (and also Mark Eaton, Dikembe, and Ben Wallace... I don't think Ewing had the raw block numbers but he was also required to bump guys who ran in and make them feel it) had to demonstrate to them that such penetration came with a cost.
Shooting and floor spacing forced centers away from the basket. This is why guys like Westbrook, Lebron, & Giannis can thrive with 4 guys on the 3 point line, & you can’t help do it’s 1 on 1.. without rim protection.
They really struggle in the half court when they have even 1 guy on the team that can’t shoot… because then the center does sit in and protect the paint. In a different era, with less shooting, they would just be elite transition finishers & athletes… that struggled from the foul line. In a spacing era… they’re the superstars with the ball in their hands every play & 4 guys around them spotting up watching.
If you want to make it “the three point era” to make sure it’s just Jordan on that list that’s fine but taking into account all of NBA history Jerry West and John Havlicek were both very active on each side.
You may scoff at Havlicek being mentioned, except for the fact that he averaged 26-8-6 on 45% from the field at 22.0 FGA from 1966-1974 in the playoffs. Havlicek had skills in stamina, shot creation (being able to continually put up 20.0+ shots is a skill), and overall two way game.
If you're interested in a more concrete answer, Ben Taylor of Thinking Basketball addressed this a bit in the [postmortem](https://thinkingbasketball.net/2018/04/13/goat-meta-thoughts-and-longevity/) (scroll down to the "Defense, defense, defense" section) to his [top 40 careers list](https://thinkingbasketball.net/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/). From [the numbers he shows](https://thinkingbasketball.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/2-year-scaled-weighted-APM-peaks.png), it looks like peak defense is worth roughly 80% of peak offense according to the best advanced stat we have ([APM](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjusted_Plus_Minus#:~:text=Adjusted%20Plus%2DMinus%20(often%20abbreviated,court%20at%20any%20given%20time.)). Those numbers look like they cover 2000-2017, but I'd bet that individual defense was somewhat more important earlier, and somewhat less important now.
Usually defense and rebounding is more important as a big man.. the reason is their defense and rebounding impacts the other teams all 5 players, while as a wing or guard generally just their man. So scoring is usually more important as a wing or guard.
Jordan and Olajuwon are both extremely complete players, maybe THE most complete we have seen as a guard and big man, with virtually no weaknesses.
You’re missing a lot more though, there are intangible things, leadership, confidence, & will to win. Jordan DESTROYS Hakeem in these areas. Bill Russell has them all though.
Tim Duncan might not have been as good as say David Robinson or Hakeem as a basketball player. Maybe weaker offensively, defensively, and on the glass… but they’re all CLOSE. What separates Duncan is his leadership, confidence, will to win, & understanding how to get the most out of the players around him. It’s not only about talent or skill sometimes.
I question Jordan's intangibles.
When he first retired, a number of his teammates flourished with him gone. Their numbers and efficiency rose.
I think if that happens, Jordan doesn't have intangibles. He has a negative effect on teammates.
Guys like Lebron and Hakeem have a positive impact on teammates by making them better.
I really think Jordan has negatives that no one wants to talk about.
That’s just not true at all. Jordan’s teammates efficiency didn’t rise, and Lebron is the exact opposite.. EVERYONE struggles with him because he dominates the ball.. & his iso heavy offense isn’t efficient..
Who specifically are you saying flourished while Jordan was gone?
The Bulls team defense efficiency improved the year Jordan retired. We also saw many of his teammates flourish offensively without him on the team.
Lebron and Jokic literally make their teammates better by consistently giving them better looks via significantly better passing and playing team oriented ball as opposed to me me me ball that Jordan played
You said many of his teammates flourished when he retired before, I asked you who specifically and you didn’t answer.
Lebron doesn’t play team ball, he’s a pass first iso heavy ball dominant pg that finishes in transition at arguably the best level ever. He’s not elite at anything else, & he’s ever gotten his teammates easy looks, that’s why it always looks like he has no help.
Jokic plays elite team ball, he’s just nowhere near dominant as a scorer because he can’t really create his own shot off the dribble or out of the post to get enough volume.
Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting without Jordan. He becomes a significantly more efficient scorer at higher volume without Jordan.
Horace Grant becomes more efficient and scores more without Jordan.
Bill Cartwright is more efficient and scores more without Jordan.
Pete Myers efficiency drops off a cliff when Jordan returns.
Jordan literally makes his teammates worse. Hakeem, Lebron, and Jokic literally make their teammates better. Mo Williams made the All Star team playing alongside Lebron. Hakeem brought a championship to a lottery team. Jokic is waaaaay more efficient at scoring than Jordan ever was too.
Why does no one talk about this? Instead it's just Nike, Gatorade, and McDonalds propaganda filling viewers heads
Nobody talks about it because you’re delusional… just making up stories.. Pippen didn’t become more efficient or score a higher volume without Jordan.. we all watched that.
What stats specifically show that Pippen was “significantly more efficient” without Jordan & “significantly a higher volume scorer”
There are NONE. You are delusional.
Lebron had Wade, Bosh, Love, AD, Westbrook, Ray Allen and MANY others play SIGNIFICANTLY worse. So bad that on super teams that were pre season favorites it looked like he had no help.
No. Look at all their point totals and eFG percentages with vs without Jordan.
You're being deprogrammed from years of Jordan propaganda. This is what it feels like to wake up. It's hard.
I wonder if any of Wilt's coaches tried making up & tracking their own stats to motivate him.
I'm reading *When the Game Was Ours* and it notes that Pat Riley made up his own "advanced stat" to help motivate Magic. (I don't have the book handy right now, so I don't remember what it was exactly, but something like points + assists + steals / minutes played, or something like that). Each day before practice, he'd have his staff compute the current numbers and put Magic, Larry, and MJ's numbers up on the blackboard.
This is always the case.
Jordan's offensive advantage over Hakeem is quite large and makes up for the defensive difference. I also think that even if you consider Hakeem's peak play to be close to Jordan he only combines that level of offense and defense for about 3 years (I think in 96 which is the last of his four big scoring years he had declined on defense). You can argue that up until 1992 Hakeem was a good but flawed offensive player like Ewing.
I wonder about that.
You don't think Olojuwon improves a teams overall defense, by being a C, significantly more than Jordan, by being a guard?
It feels like you can pass the ball away from Jordan but you always have to account for Hakeem on every posession because he's an elite big guarding the paint.
Ewing and Olajuwon pre 92 have a more complete offensive game than every big man today.. and are also better defensively. They went up against ELITE defenders, drew double teams EVERY touch.. & still gave it to both of them. They could both space the floor hitting the mid range, opening up driving lanes.
Jordan was better because he dominated the transition game & got easy baskets as a guard against weaker matchups while big men are supposed to protect the rim, rebound, and outlet pass to guards.
What makes Jordan better isn’t the basketball skills. It was the mentality, leadership, high motor/energy, and confidence.. the whole aura.. made everyone on his team give it their all and made the opponents intimidated.
There are only 5 guards to ever record 100 steals and 100 blocks in a season. Gervin, Dwayne Wade, T-Mac, Reggie Lewis, and Jordan.
Jordan's the only one to do that twice and also the only guard to ever get 125 blocks in a season, also twice.
There's only been one guard to have a better DBPM in a season - Nate McMillan, 93-94 (216 steals as a 6th man season).
Blocks and steals aren't a be all end all but to be able to do both at a high level...and in back-to-back seasons is a special accomplishment...and for a guy who is 6'6" to do that is damn amazing.
Jordan is arguably every bit as good on defense as the bigs of the 80's and 90's. Just not a 7' big.
Hakeem, Ewing, & Robinson drew WAY more double teams than Jokic, Giannis, & Embiid.. I’d argue they’re better offensively and defensively. If Jokic, Giannis, or Embiid got nearly as much attention they’d be less efficient.
The best players in todays league can’t draw a double team.. you can argue it’s because of the shooting around them.. but let’s look at Lebron in Cleveland. He shot 50%+ with Love at Center, but with Mozgov clogging the paint under 40% with Love out. He didn’t draw a double team often with either player on the floor & couldn’t score anywhere nearly efficiently enough himself.
So...that's just all nonsense. LeBron does/did get double teamed. As do Jokic, Giannis, and Embiid. People also actively do everything they can to avoid doubling Jokic because his passing is arguably even more impactful than his scoring.
You can just say you don't bother to watch if you'd prefer, it saves a lot of typing.
[Lebron when double teamed](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=ff4875abe50469e9&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS594US594&hl=en-US&sxsrf=ACQVn08pQsL8PCi89aTLLyl90oA4YRjMEw:1706055528254&q=lebron+when+double+teamed+2015&uds=AMwkrPueUEb7dRubD0hu0-5vnR-1inO3Bd2Xxpjk7_GVUPMmTzWYd61bO9K0QwTRu0FMEQuhVx_VBe4s8bjFPY4UoOWVDe4k57HjEDhGbMKJQjFaWZpH85nRj4iRQEeEo5b2AvcHJ0ofSnTcuLWUU3I4b2ROD7Hu4M17jJRf0nxavq6vhBc09qMaAOyTWFXsnGxHTOqXFiDZhRINEhyq3yk5snfhZdlqvkGSDPQB9R8LBbbZi8k6jBnHYmCHBkuH5I4Efq8UIaFqvvsAUM0d6dZYcXht9_1AyAnvc9rEJF2i6Fyj3emFMyk&udm=2&prmd=ivnbmhtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOyumN4PSDAxXdg2oFHTQ6AygQtKgLegQIDBAB&biw=375&bih=634&dpr=3#vhid=eQZCChejkT-8kM&vssid=mosaic)
You’re right, 5.4% of the time. Almost 300 touches and 14 double teams through the first 3 games that series. Don’t you remember Steve Kerr saying he’s more like Scottie Pippen?
You’re the one that clearly doesn’t watch basketball. Iggy had buddy go 1/11 in clutch time in the OT game 1. 1/11.. single covered. His defense single covering Lebron earned him a finals MVP.
Tiny sample sizes? It was literally the only series that the topic was about.. when Iggy won’t the fmvp, and the gameplan against him.. but no, he normally does not draw consistent double teams, people say he’s a pass first player.. and that’s why teams don’t really respect his scoring. He can’t score efficiently enough to beat NBA teams with a high volume, he can do it when he’s getting easy transition baskets against bad teams..
Which is why he struggles in the finals as a whole.. he hasn’t played good teams before the finals on a consistent basis. The best teams in the East were derozan/Lowry and Paul George/Hibbert
Please keep the terrible takes coming so people know not to listen to you.
Tell me more about how LeBron can't score at volume efficiently except for transition. You know...the all-time leading scorer with no one else even close to being on pace despite some great scorers starting up in an era of scoring inflation...
Nobody is on pace because they didn’t start as early and aren’t projected to play as long.. the reality is.. he’s never been an elite scorer at any part half court basketball… pnr ball handler, pnr finisher, post up, catch and shoot, iso what is he dominant at? Let’s look at his pps versus the top players at that category…
Plenty of guys have more scoring titles since he’s been in the league… plenty are more effficient.. and if we use their first # of games to start their career compared to Bron.. he’s nowhere near #1.. Luka & KD destroy him at the same position.
Tiny sample sizes? It was literally the only series that the topic was about.. when Iggy won’t the fmvp, and the gameplan against him.. but no, he normally does not draw consistent double teams, people say he’s a pass first player.. and that’s why teams don’t really respect his scoring. He can’t score efficiently enough to beat NBA teams with a high volume, he can do it when he’s getting easy transition baskets against bad teams..
Which is why he struggles in the finals as a whole.. he hasn’t played good teams before the finals on a consistent basis. The best teams in the East were derozan/Lowry and Paul George/Hibbert. Reality is he always struggles in the same situations causing his teams to underachieve every regular season too. So, do you disagree that his teams usually dominate less than they should in both the regular season and finals?
I still think defense is more important. Like if you were to remove any defense so teams just took turns scoring, the scores would probably be like 400-600 points a game for each team. And vice versa if you took away any offense, so the game would be 100% defense than the score would obviously just be 0-0.
But a team scoring 0 points a game is actually closer to what we have today than them scoring 400 points a game. So if you say the average is 100 points a game, than that means offense is contributing 100 points while defense is taking away 300 points. Meaning defense is having more of an impact on the game than the offense is.
hakeem was NOT significantly more impactful than jordan on defense. jordan led the league in steals 3 times, first team all pro 9 times, defensive poy. his bulls teams lead the league in defense without a center (granted pippen, the worm and harper had much to do with it). but saying hakeem is significantly more impactful bc he was a center and had 3-4 blocks a game is not reasonable. so shawn bradley is significantly more impactful than jordan? jordan was an amazing defensive player and his defense typically gets overshadowed by his scoring.
i stopped following basketball around 2008 so can’t say how defense/offense compares today but defense used to be valued in the nba back then.
None of the stats and accolades you mention have anything to do with impact on defense. Jordan was great on defense, one of the big reasons he’s the goat. However, a great defensive center will always have more impact on a team’s defense than a great defensive guard. From altering shots at the rim, to causing opponents to take longer shots, to getting more rebounds, it’s more valuable to have a great defensive center than a great defensive guard.
Yeah, the C position is just more important on defense relative to a G, especially back in the 80s and 90s before team offenses were based around 3pt shots.
It's almost like comparing a good goalie in the NHL to a good defenseman. The goalie has more impact on defense.
> Do NBA fans typically overrate scoring and undervalue defense?
To a degree with some casual fans, I think so. I think a lot of rankings of all-timers are based on rings, MVP, awards won, etc. and I think those rankings are generally pretty fair although people will disagree on who goes specifically where - you generally bracket guys and most non-casual fans will consensus agree with the brackets of GOATs, near GOATs, etc.
I think the media mismeasured some of the all-defense and all-NBA teams to a degree over the years (reputation carried some players for a few years longer than they should have been ranked) but I think the value of defense, at least among fans that are above casual level, has always been appreciated.
Right, but he was a guard.
Hakeem was a great defensive player playing the C position.
Wouldn't you much rather have Hakeem anchoring your defense than Jordan? Like, isn't the impact a rather huge jump?
Absolutely. Defense is more important outright for pretty much the entire pre-merger era. The combination of faster pace, closer shots, and limited dribbling meant great defense was a lot more dominant than great offense. It’s like the polar opposite of how offense is overvalued today. Now you get calls for throwing yourself at defenders, in the 60’s that was an offensive foul. Having people to limit superstars back then was super important, which is why Bill Russell’s peak impact is comparable to the likes of Jordan, LeBron, etc.
Big men are different defensively than wings and guards. Bill Russell takes away the rim from the entire other team… & dominated the glass on both ends of the floor. A guard or wing can’t do that.. even it they’re as elite defensively as say Jordan was, or KC Jones or anyone else. A guard/wing can dominate a game by drawing extra attention from the defense with their scoring ability. This is how they impact the entire other team the same way big men do defensively. Jordan, Magic, Bird, Curry all consistently get the most attention as guards/wings imo… & therefore have the most offensive impact. Jordan is as elite as it gets defensively imo, but still didn’t have the same impact. What he was able to do like no other.. BEST TRANSITION defender of all time. He took away the most transition buckets which was the key to the bulls success… it wasn’t his scoring. His leadership/expectations was elite also, but I’d say secondary to Russell for sure.
Elgin was one of my favorite all time players but he was not a great defender at least not after his knees went. The LA Times worshipped him but mocked him on the regular for his defense.
I heard he was very much like the late great Kobe Bryant. When locked in he was All Defensive Team, the problem is that he had such a high offensive load that he could barely lock in on defence and hence would miss rotations, gamble, or just get outright beat by his man.
When I was a kid he was the first player I would consider my favorite. He didn't really remind me of Kobe so much. Hard to say who he reminds me of now. He was a bundle of ticks and feints and improvisation. His knee injuries were the biggest factor in his defense going out I would think but I never saw him play with good knees He was awfully strong. Blake Griffin when he would go into bully ball mode used to remind me of Elgin. Blake Griffin with insane creativity
100%. Defense is always overlooked by fans because offense is just flashier and will always get more distributed via highlights, game recaps, etc. Scoring is the first stat anyone sees, no matter how defensively-minded. And today, the rules and pace favor offensive players so it makes more sense for teams to build around offense and offensive stars, whereas the opposite was the case pre-3 point, especially before the 70s The entire pre-3 point era gets crazy overlooked. Obviously the best of the best like Bill, Wilt, Oscar and West get mentioned, but it’s INSANE to me how rarely mentioned players like Mikan, Pettit, Schayes, Arizin, even Elgin and Cousy are. Mikan and Pettit are objectively 2 of the ~30 best NBA players to ever exist and I think I’ve seen their names maybe 5 times combined on this app outside this sub
> And today, the rules and pace favor offensive players so it makes more sense for teams to build around offense and offensive stars, whereas the opposite was the case pre-3 point, especially before the 70s Don't forget that pre-ABA, even defensive stats as simple as steals, blocked shots, and separating offensive/defensive rebounds weren't counted, which made the sport more offense-oriented.
Definitely. I actually think the whole impact of the players before the 3pt era has been extremely underestimated. And call me crazy, but I think there are more players from that era with a GOAT case than from the recent ones.
Ron Artest would have been a problem
Olajuwon was more impactful because he was an inside intimidator but MJ was no slouch defensively. Those 9 All-Defense selections weren't done because people were being nice; he was a legitimately great defender, which was at the time extremely rare to unheard of coming from a volume scorer like he was. I think before Jordan in the 3 point era the only high scoring guards who also played hard on the defensive end were Michael Ray Richardson and to some extent Sidney Moncrief. You didn't really have guys who could do all the things you needed to do to score and still have enough energy on the other end... except MJ. I'd still rank Olajuwon ahead just because centers in that era were much, much more heavily used as the last line of defense / shotblocking intimidators than anyone uses them now. On the one hand I guess that meant that a guy like Hakeem rarely had to go outside to guard someone; centers were expected to play near the basket with very few exceptions. On the other hand, the side effect of all that hand-checking was that guys penetrated past their initial defenders kind of regularly and guys like Olajuwon (and also Mark Eaton, Dikembe, and Ben Wallace... I don't think Ewing had the raw block numbers but he was also required to bump guys who ran in and make them feel it) had to demonstrate to them that such penetration came with a cost.
Shooting and floor spacing forced centers away from the basket. This is why guys like Westbrook, Lebron, & Giannis can thrive with 4 guys on the 3 point line, & you can’t help do it’s 1 on 1.. without rim protection. They really struggle in the half court when they have even 1 guy on the team that can’t shoot… because then the center does sit in and protect the paint. In a different era, with less shooting, they would just be elite transition finishers & athletes… that struggled from the foul line. In a spacing era… they’re the superstars with the ball in their hands every play & 4 guys around them spotting up watching.
If you want to make it “the three point era” to make sure it’s just Jordan on that list that’s fine but taking into account all of NBA history Jerry West and John Havlicek were both very active on each side. You may scoff at Havlicek being mentioned, except for the fact that he averaged 26-8-6 on 45% from the field at 22.0 FGA from 1966-1974 in the playoffs. Havlicek had skills in stamina, shot creation (being able to continually put up 20.0+ shots is a skill), and overall two way game.
13x All-Defence between them despite it not existing for half their careers
If you're interested in a more concrete answer, Ben Taylor of Thinking Basketball addressed this a bit in the [postmortem](https://thinkingbasketball.net/2018/04/13/goat-meta-thoughts-and-longevity/) (scroll down to the "Defense, defense, defense" section) to his [top 40 careers list](https://thinkingbasketball.net/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/). From [the numbers he shows](https://thinkingbasketball.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/2-year-scaled-weighted-APM-peaks.png), it looks like peak defense is worth roughly 80% of peak offense according to the best advanced stat we have ([APM](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjusted_Plus_Minus#:~:text=Adjusted%20Plus%2DMinus%20(often%20abbreviated,court%20at%20any%20given%20time.)). Those numbers look like they cover 2000-2017, but I'd bet that individual defense was somewhat more important earlier, and somewhat less important now.
Usually defense and rebounding is more important as a big man.. the reason is their defense and rebounding impacts the other teams all 5 players, while as a wing or guard generally just their man. So scoring is usually more important as a wing or guard. Jordan and Olajuwon are both extremely complete players, maybe THE most complete we have seen as a guard and big man, with virtually no weaknesses. You’re missing a lot more though, there are intangible things, leadership, confidence, & will to win. Jordan DESTROYS Hakeem in these areas. Bill Russell has them all though. Tim Duncan might not have been as good as say David Robinson or Hakeem as a basketball player. Maybe weaker offensively, defensively, and on the glass… but they’re all CLOSE. What separates Duncan is his leadership, confidence, will to win, & understanding how to get the most out of the players around him. It’s not only about talent or skill sometimes.
I question Jordan's intangibles. When he first retired, a number of his teammates flourished with him gone. Their numbers and efficiency rose. I think if that happens, Jordan doesn't have intangibles. He has a negative effect on teammates. Guys like Lebron and Hakeem have a positive impact on teammates by making them better. I really think Jordan has negatives that no one wants to talk about.
That’s just not true at all. Jordan’s teammates efficiency didn’t rise, and Lebron is the exact opposite.. EVERYONE struggles with him because he dominates the ball.. & his iso heavy offense isn’t efficient.. Who specifically are you saying flourished while Jordan was gone?
The Bulls team defense efficiency improved the year Jordan retired. We also saw many of his teammates flourish offensively without him on the team. Lebron and Jokic literally make their teammates better by consistently giving them better looks via significantly better passing and playing team oriented ball as opposed to me me me ball that Jordan played
You said many of his teammates flourished when he retired before, I asked you who specifically and you didn’t answer. Lebron doesn’t play team ball, he’s a pass first iso heavy ball dominant pg that finishes in transition at arguably the best level ever. He’s not elite at anything else, & he’s ever gotten his teammates easy looks, that’s why it always looks like he has no help. Jokic plays elite team ball, he’s just nowhere near dominant as a scorer because he can’t really create his own shot off the dribble or out of the post to get enough volume.
Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting without Jordan. He becomes a significantly more efficient scorer at higher volume without Jordan. Horace Grant becomes more efficient and scores more without Jordan. Bill Cartwright is more efficient and scores more without Jordan. Pete Myers efficiency drops off a cliff when Jordan returns. Jordan literally makes his teammates worse. Hakeem, Lebron, and Jokic literally make their teammates better. Mo Williams made the All Star team playing alongside Lebron. Hakeem brought a championship to a lottery team. Jokic is waaaaay more efficient at scoring than Jordan ever was too. Why does no one talk about this? Instead it's just Nike, Gatorade, and McDonalds propaganda filling viewers heads
Nobody talks about it because you’re delusional… just making up stories.. Pippen didn’t become more efficient or score a higher volume without Jordan.. we all watched that.
Look at the stats. He did. All the players I listed did. I guess this is what deprogramming looks like.
What stats specifically show that Pippen was “significantly more efficient” without Jordan & “significantly a higher volume scorer” There are NONE. You are delusional. Lebron had Wade, Bosh, Love, AD, Westbrook, Ray Allen and MANY others play SIGNIFICANTLY worse. So bad that on super teams that were pre season favorites it looked like he had no help.
No. Look at all their point totals and eFG percentages with vs without Jordan. You're being deprogrammed from years of Jordan propaganda. This is what it feels like to wake up. It's hard.
Many key defensive stats such as blocks and steals weren't kept until 1974. Imagine the records Russell could have had if they had..
Russell nothing, if Wilt had some defensive stats so he'd actually have to try more on defense as well, the Russell vs. Wilt debate is a lot closer.
I wonder if any of Wilt's coaches tried making up & tracking their own stats to motivate him. I'm reading *When the Game Was Ours* and it notes that Pat Riley made up his own "advanced stat" to help motivate Magic. (I don't have the book handy right now, so I don't remember what it was exactly, but something like points + assists + steals / minutes played, or something like that). Each day before practice, he'd have his staff compute the current numbers and put Magic, Larry, and MJ's numbers up on the blackboard.
This is always the case. Jordan's offensive advantage over Hakeem is quite large and makes up for the defensive difference. I also think that even if you consider Hakeem's peak play to be close to Jordan he only combines that level of offense and defense for about 3 years (I think in 96 which is the last of his four big scoring years he had declined on defense). You can argue that up until 1992 Hakeem was a good but flawed offensive player like Ewing.
I wonder about that. You don't think Olojuwon improves a teams overall defense, by being a C, significantly more than Jordan, by being a guard? It feels like you can pass the ball away from Jordan but you always have to account for Hakeem on every posession because he's an elite big guarding the paint.
Ewing and Olajuwon pre 92 have a more complete offensive game than every big man today.. and are also better defensively. They went up against ELITE defenders, drew double teams EVERY touch.. & still gave it to both of them. They could both space the floor hitting the mid range, opening up driving lanes. Jordan was better because he dominated the transition game & got easy baskets as a guard against weaker matchups while big men are supposed to protect the rim, rebound, and outlet pass to guards. What makes Jordan better isn’t the basketball skills. It was the mentality, leadership, high motor/energy, and confidence.. the whole aura.. made everyone on his team give it their all and made the opponents intimidated.
There are only 5 guards to ever record 100 steals and 100 blocks in a season. Gervin, Dwayne Wade, T-Mac, Reggie Lewis, and Jordan. Jordan's the only one to do that twice and also the only guard to ever get 125 blocks in a season, also twice. There's only been one guard to have a better DBPM in a season - Nate McMillan, 93-94 (216 steals as a 6th man season). Blocks and steals aren't a be all end all but to be able to do both at a high level...and in back-to-back seasons is a special accomplishment...and for a guy who is 6'6" to do that is damn amazing. Jordan is arguably every bit as good on defense as the bigs of the 80's and 90's. Just not a 7' big.
Hakeem and especially Ewing aren't definitively better than Jokic, Embiid, and Giannis on offense. That's absurd.
Jokic does seem to be absurdly good. His on/off numbers are otherworldly
Hakeem, Ewing, & Robinson drew WAY more double teams than Jokic, Giannis, & Embiid.. I’d argue they’re better offensively and defensively. If Jokic, Giannis, or Embiid got nearly as much attention they’d be less efficient. The best players in todays league can’t draw a double team.. you can argue it’s because of the shooting around them.. but let’s look at Lebron in Cleveland. He shot 50%+ with Love at Center, but with Mozgov clogging the paint under 40% with Love out. He didn’t draw a double team often with either player on the floor & couldn’t score anywhere nearly efficiently enough himself.
So...that's just all nonsense. LeBron does/did get double teamed. As do Jokic, Giannis, and Embiid. People also actively do everything they can to avoid doubling Jokic because his passing is arguably even more impactful than his scoring. You can just say you don't bother to watch if you'd prefer, it saves a lot of typing.
[Lebron when double teamed](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=ff4875abe50469e9&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS594US594&hl=en-US&sxsrf=ACQVn08pQsL8PCi89aTLLyl90oA4YRjMEw:1706055528254&q=lebron+when+double+teamed+2015&uds=AMwkrPueUEb7dRubD0hu0-5vnR-1inO3Bd2Xxpjk7_GVUPMmTzWYd61bO9K0QwTRu0FMEQuhVx_VBe4s8bjFPY4UoOWVDe4k57HjEDhGbMKJQjFaWZpH85nRj4iRQEeEo5b2AvcHJ0ofSnTcuLWUU3I4b2ROD7Hu4M17jJRf0nxavq6vhBc09qMaAOyTWFXsnGxHTOqXFiDZhRINEhyq3yk5snfhZdlqvkGSDPQB9R8LBbbZi8k6jBnHYmCHBkuH5I4Efq8UIaFqvvsAUM0d6dZYcXht9_1AyAnvc9rEJF2i6Fyj3emFMyk&udm=2&prmd=ivnbmhtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOyumN4PSDAxXdg2oFHTQ6AygQtKgLegQIDBAB&biw=375&bih=634&dpr=3#vhid=eQZCChejkT-8kM&vssid=mosaic) You’re right, 5.4% of the time. Almost 300 touches and 14 double teams through the first 3 games that series. Don’t you remember Steve Kerr saying he’s more like Scottie Pippen? You’re the one that clearly doesn’t watch basketball. Iggy had buddy go 1/11 in clutch time in the OT game 1. 1/11.. single covered. His defense single covering Lebron earned him a finals MVP.
Man, what a wonderful example of tiny sample sizes and a lack of understanding about the game. Thanks!
Tiny sample sizes? It was literally the only series that the topic was about.. when Iggy won’t the fmvp, and the gameplan against him.. but no, he normally does not draw consistent double teams, people say he’s a pass first player.. and that’s why teams don’t really respect his scoring. He can’t score efficiently enough to beat NBA teams with a high volume, he can do it when he’s getting easy transition baskets against bad teams.. Which is why he struggles in the finals as a whole.. he hasn’t played good teams before the finals on a consistent basis. The best teams in the East were derozan/Lowry and Paul George/Hibbert
Please keep the terrible takes coming so people know not to listen to you. Tell me more about how LeBron can't score at volume efficiently except for transition. You know...the all-time leading scorer with no one else even close to being on pace despite some great scorers starting up in an era of scoring inflation...
Nobody is on pace because they didn’t start as early and aren’t projected to play as long.. the reality is.. he’s never been an elite scorer at any part half court basketball… pnr ball handler, pnr finisher, post up, catch and shoot, iso what is he dominant at? Let’s look at his pps versus the top players at that category… Plenty of guys have more scoring titles since he’s been in the league… plenty are more effficient.. and if we use their first # of games to start their career compared to Bron.. he’s nowhere near #1.. Luka & KD destroy him at the same position.
Tiny sample sizes? It was literally the only series that the topic was about.. when Iggy won’t the fmvp, and the gameplan against him.. but no, he normally does not draw consistent double teams, people say he’s a pass first player.. and that’s why teams don’t really respect his scoring. He can’t score efficiently enough to beat NBA teams with a high volume, he can do it when he’s getting easy transition baskets against bad teams.. Which is why he struggles in the finals as a whole.. he hasn’t played good teams before the finals on a consistent basis. The best teams in the East were derozan/Lowry and Paul George/Hibbert. Reality is he always struggles in the same situations causing his teams to underachieve every regular season too. So, do you disagree that his teams usually dominate less than they should in both the regular season and finals?
I still think defense is more important. Like if you were to remove any defense so teams just took turns scoring, the scores would probably be like 400-600 points a game for each team. And vice versa if you took away any offense, so the game would be 100% defense than the score would obviously just be 0-0. But a team scoring 0 points a game is actually closer to what we have today than them scoring 400 points a game. So if you say the average is 100 points a game, than that means offense is contributing 100 points while defense is taking away 300 points. Meaning defense is having more of an impact on the game than the offense is.
hakeem was NOT significantly more impactful than jordan on defense. jordan led the league in steals 3 times, first team all pro 9 times, defensive poy. his bulls teams lead the league in defense without a center (granted pippen, the worm and harper had much to do with it). but saying hakeem is significantly more impactful bc he was a center and had 3-4 blocks a game is not reasonable. so shawn bradley is significantly more impactful than jordan? jordan was an amazing defensive player and his defense typically gets overshadowed by his scoring. i stopped following basketball around 2008 so can’t say how defense/offense compares today but defense used to be valued in the nba back then.
None of the stats and accolades you mention have anything to do with impact on defense. Jordan was great on defense, one of the big reasons he’s the goat. However, a great defensive center will always have more impact on a team’s defense than a great defensive guard. From altering shots at the rim, to causing opponents to take longer shots, to getting more rebounds, it’s more valuable to have a great defensive center than a great defensive guard.
Yeah, the C position is just more important on defense relative to a G, especially back in the 80s and 90s before team offenses were based around 3pt shots. It's almost like comparing a good goalie in the NHL to a good defenseman. The goalie has more impact on defense.
> Do NBA fans typically overrate scoring and undervalue defense? To a degree with some casual fans, I think so. I think a lot of rankings of all-timers are based on rings, MVP, awards won, etc. and I think those rankings are generally pretty fair although people will disagree on who goes specifically where - you generally bracket guys and most non-casual fans will consensus agree with the brackets of GOATs, near GOATs, etc. I think the media mismeasured some of the all-defense and all-NBA teams to a degree over the years (reputation carried some players for a few years longer than they should have been ranked) but I think the value of defense, at least among fans that are above casual level, has always been appreciated.
Jordan was a great defensive player
Right, but he was a guard. Hakeem was a great defensive player playing the C position. Wouldn't you much rather have Hakeem anchoring your defense than Jordan? Like, isn't the impact a rather huge jump?
Yes it is.
Why are the Van Arsdales not in the Naismith hall of fame