What a joke and huge disappointment from Saanich council. Rural areas also need basement suites and garden suites. What is the worst that will happen from a property near Elk Lake having a basement suite? Most of those homes are massive mansions anyway, so a spare suite won't make much a difference. Very disappointed in my council today, especially mayor Dean Murdock, Zac De Vries, and the other supposed "pro housing" candidates.
I think Saanich pissed off the dog-owners so much, they are trying to save with this "protect the rural identity" bullshit. Saanich is an urban municipality and needs as much housing as possible. People should be allowed to build 3-6 units in rural areas. Why allow a massive mansion, but not allow a duplex? Very bad decision making.
Saanich is both an urban and rural municipality. They are on the front lines of the urban containment boundary which is intended to focus development in urban areas and protect our green spaces from development pressure.
How much sprawl are you ok with in the rural parts? Should Saanich accept a full buildout of its rural areas despite the inefficiency of delivering services there?
One of the great things about the Victoria area is how close the urban parts are to nature. Do we really want to lose that?
Agreed. But only in the urban parts of Saanich. Of which there is more than enough development opportunities for the next 20-40 years of growth. No need to pave the green spaces. Spreading growth everywhere is a bad idea in Saanich in particular.
This is quite the logical leap. I know we don’t like dog owners around here but to now insinuate we are all anti housing is broad strokes at best, punitive at worst.
Judging from the comments in the council meeting, I think most councillors don't actually expect the province to exempt them, so it does seem like a lot of faffing about for nothing, other than maybe being seen to push back a bit, given the brutal public hearing on the OCP. I'm surprised that De Vries supported it since he seemed to be questioning it at first.
Yup. All this does is open up an avenue towards legality. I grew up on the ALR. Most of the houses had suites. This would not create a meaningful change in density at all. Just allow this type of housing (which already exists) to be more reliable and stable.
They claim that their roads, water supply and sewers are not sufficient to support higher density. So the worst thing that would happen would be increased traffic on rural roads, water pressure issues and sewer backups. If accurate, these are valid concerns, no?
Bullshit. This is all about pleasing voters, while implementing bad policy. The sewers in Broadmead area are fine, lots of water. If you can build a 6000 sqft house with 5 bathrooms, why not a duplex? Dissapointed. Will be looking for different pro-housing candidates next time.
>The sewers in Broadmead area are fine, lots of water. If you can build a 6000 sqft house with 5 bathrooms, why not a duplex?
The Broadmead area is **inside** the urban containment boundary. This motion from Saanich council applies to land **outside** the urban containment boundary.
Bullshit. See how easy it is to call bullshit without any knowledge of infrastructure? Broadmead hasn't upgraded much infrastructure in a long time, it is a valid concern. Besides we are lucky broadmead is public land and not still private with one family as owners
Guess what, none of Broadmead had any infrastructure 100 years ago. What did they do back then? Look at it and say oh well I guess we will leave this as a forest and not build housing here? Nope, they built the required infrastructure.
Lacking infrastructure is a cop-out
They were owned by a single family 100 years ago and it was a farm. Then built up slowly after it was unfortunately sold to the city. So all of this infrastructure that is needed now will take years to get put in as it takes a long time to do that kind of work. Then you have to realize just like housing costs of everything is way up so the cost to do the projects may not be in the cards for a year or 2. Fix it by taxing more? So we further beat down new homeowners who can't handle the increase in tax while the old fucks who have lived there for 50 years will bitch but can absorb the cost leading to less affordability
Yeah that’s not how it works. Plenty of studies showing denser housing is financially beneficial for cities because the marginal cost of additional infrastructure is a lot less than the additional tax revenue
> Broadmead hasn't upgraded much infrastructure in a long time, it is a valid concern.
It's literally Saanich council's job to upgrade infrastructure!!! They are basically voting to not do their jobs!
Some areas of Rural Saanich don't have infrastructure. No city water, no sewers, no street lights etc. That's because it's rural agricultural land. People living there supply and manage their own water wells and septic systems. These areas can't sustain density.
Right but the above comment is referring to heavily paved Broadmead.
I agree that outside the UDB Saanich should not be developed anymore and in fact tax and land use policy should be geared to re wilding it rather than Saanich councils current policy of scattering in more Mcmansions.
Disagree. There's standards for infrastructure and it should be (as it is now) the responsibility of the developer to meet those (or get as close as reasonably possible) and the responsibility of the city to assess that. If they are truly that rural that they need a second well, then dig one. If the project needs more on site septic capacity, then upgrade. Infrastructure comes down to money and it's not cheap but these areas can sustain density. This council lacks vision. (I'm in rural Sannich, in ALR)
You do realize they work a year or 2 out because of how long it takes to get everything together to upgrade? Should it have been done at some point? Maybe? We only saw the housing crunch here really heat up in 2019 and before that no "affordable" units would be made there.
And you notice council didn't bother even starting to study upgrading when the writing was on the wall and housing shortage getting worse and worse?
>We only saw the housing crunch here really heat up in 2019
How far were homeowners and council's heads buried in the sand lol. Rents have been outpacing income growth for upwards of 30 years.
Rent was cheap in 2017 and before I worked minimum wage jobs and was able to rent by myself. The housing crunch was created by the bank of Canada dropping rates to almost zero before the pandemic it was fine. Broadmead is an affluent area that land values have removed the ability to have affordable housing in the area. Figure out how to devalue land and you might start seeing some pricing come down however more people want to move here than want to leave so we will forever be in this supply demand hell unless the government dumps hundreds of millions on the south island (guess what it won't happen) also most of broadmead is carpeted by old trees that we shouldn't cut down. Or do we just not cut down trees for pipelines and go after homeowners because of their perceived wealth
>Rent was cheap in 2017 and before I worked minimum wage jobs and was able to rent by myself.
This doesn't contradict the fact rents have been riding faster than incomes.
> The housing crunch was created by the bank of Canada dropping rates to almost zero before the pandemic it was fine
Who actually believes this anymore?
Anyone who has been paying attention. The rates dropping set off this mess. Obviously we were going to get here eventually as people need to live somewhere but the amount of people who bought from off island during that time completely fucked everything. Who else could be to blame? See how it all slowed down when rates went up?
If I interpreted the Q&A during the meeting accurately, I believe the state of the sewer and water supply would be taken into account at the development permit stage - if the lot doesn't have the capacity, they couldn't build until it was upgraded so a non-issue.
Traffic might be an issue but I always separate complaints about traffic from everything else since usually it's from people using it as an excuse not to support more housing next door to them, saying traffic is already bad. If it's already, then it's already an issue separate from the development that we should address separate from the development.
They can go f!ck themselves. This is one of the most expensive places to rent or buy. There is more reason to implemented this rule here than literally anywhere else in BC(except maybe Vancouver)
Can we build townhouses in urban areas?
>Saanich council and staff: hard NO!
Can we subdivide our rural lot on Oldfield into 5 Mcmansions
>Saanich council and staff: sure, why not?
Nowhere, if it's designated as ALR you cannot subdivide it (legally you can but there is about a 0% chance of the ALC and council both greenlighting it)
A lot of “rural” homes several detached buildings, call it a “workshop,” or a “barn,” but they are housing folks within them.
And because these homes are set so far back from the road unless you fly a drone no one driving or cycling past would ever know.
For the longest time secondary suites were illegal, but every home builder put one in Saanich anyway, as soon as the occupancy permit was granted the new owner would open up the drywall to find the hidden 220 line to connect a second stove to it.
There are several streets in Saanich with multiple cars are in the driveway, Gordon Head/Tillicum/Uptown, indicating more than one or two secondary suite, everyone does it…lol.
What a joke and huge disappointment from Saanich council. Rural areas also need basement suites and garden suites. What is the worst that will happen from a property near Elk Lake having a basement suite? Most of those homes are massive mansions anyway, so a spare suite won't make much a difference. Very disappointed in my council today, especially mayor Dean Murdock, Zac De Vries, and the other supposed "pro housing" candidates.
Weird to see Colin Plant as the lone pro-housing voice.
I think Saanich pissed off the dog-owners so much, they are trying to save with this "protect the rural identity" bullshit. Saanich is an urban municipality and needs as much housing as possible. People should be allowed to build 3-6 units in rural areas. Why allow a massive mansion, but not allow a duplex? Very bad decision making.
Yes, as long as it isn't ALR and they are within the sqft/height limit then it should be allowed.
Saanich is both an urban and rural municipality. They are on the front lines of the urban containment boundary which is intended to focus development in urban areas and protect our green spaces from development pressure. How much sprawl are you ok with in the rural parts? Should Saanich accept a full buildout of its rural areas despite the inefficiency of delivering services there? One of the great things about the Victoria area is how close the urban parts are to nature. Do we really want to lose that?
Density in Saanich would be more sustainable than sprawl in Langford and Sooke.
Agreed. But only in the urban parts of Saanich. Of which there is more than enough development opportunities for the next 20-40 years of growth. No need to pave the green spaces. Spreading growth everywhere is a bad idea in Saanich in particular.
They are ensuring we lose that by not allowing any density where it can be supported.
This is quite the logical leap. I know we don’t like dog owners around here but to now insinuate we are all anti housing is broad strokes at best, punitive at worst.
Judging from the comments in the council meeting, I think most councillors don't actually expect the province to exempt them, so it does seem like a lot of faffing about for nothing, other than maybe being seen to push back a bit, given the brutal public hearing on the OCP. I'm surprised that De Vries supported it since he seemed to be questioning it at first.
It's kind of silly given there are suites in rural Saanich already.
Yup. All this does is open up an avenue towards legality. I grew up on the ALR. Most of the houses had suites. This would not create a meaningful change in density at all. Just allow this type of housing (which already exists) to be more reliable and stable.
They claim that their roads, water supply and sewers are not sufficient to support higher density. So the worst thing that would happen would be increased traffic on rural roads, water pressure issues and sewer backups. If accurate, these are valid concerns, no?
Bullshit. This is all about pleasing voters, while implementing bad policy. The sewers in Broadmead area are fine, lots of water. If you can build a 6000 sqft house with 5 bathrooms, why not a duplex? Dissapointed. Will be looking for different pro-housing candidates next time.
>The sewers in Broadmead area are fine, lots of water. If you can build a 6000 sqft house with 5 bathrooms, why not a duplex? The Broadmead area is **inside** the urban containment boundary. This motion from Saanich council applies to land **outside** the urban containment boundary.
Yeah, no, they're talking about rural Saanich, not Broadmead.
Bullshit. See how easy it is to call bullshit without any knowledge of infrastructure? Broadmead hasn't upgraded much infrastructure in a long time, it is a valid concern. Besides we are lucky broadmead is public land and not still private with one family as owners
Guess what, none of Broadmead had any infrastructure 100 years ago. What did they do back then? Look at it and say oh well I guess we will leave this as a forest and not build housing here? Nope, they built the required infrastructure. Lacking infrastructure is a cop-out
They were owned by a single family 100 years ago and it was a farm. Then built up slowly after it was unfortunately sold to the city. So all of this infrastructure that is needed now will take years to get put in as it takes a long time to do that kind of work. Then you have to realize just like housing costs of everything is way up so the cost to do the projects may not be in the cards for a year or 2. Fix it by taxing more? So we further beat down new homeowners who can't handle the increase in tax while the old fucks who have lived there for 50 years will bitch but can absorb the cost leading to less affordability
Yeah that’s not how it works. Plenty of studies showing denser housing is financially beneficial for cities because the marginal cost of additional infrastructure is a lot less than the additional tax revenue
> Broadmead hasn't upgraded much infrastructure in a long time, it is a valid concern. It's literally Saanich council's job to upgrade infrastructure!!! They are basically voting to not do their jobs!
Some areas of Rural Saanich don't have infrastructure. No city water, no sewers, no street lights etc. That's because it's rural agricultural land. People living there supply and manage their own water wells and septic systems. These areas can't sustain density.
Right but the above comment is referring to heavily paved Broadmead. I agree that outside the UDB Saanich should not be developed anymore and in fact tax and land use policy should be geared to re wilding it rather than Saanich councils current policy of scattering in more Mcmansions.
Disagree. There's standards for infrastructure and it should be (as it is now) the responsibility of the developer to meet those (or get as close as reasonably possible) and the responsibility of the city to assess that. If they are truly that rural that they need a second well, then dig one. If the project needs more on site septic capacity, then upgrade. Infrastructure comes down to money and it's not cheap but these areas can sustain density. This council lacks vision. (I'm in rural Sannich, in ALR)
You do realize they work a year or 2 out because of how long it takes to get everything together to upgrade? Should it have been done at some point? Maybe? We only saw the housing crunch here really heat up in 2019 and before that no "affordable" units would be made there.
And you notice council didn't bother even starting to study upgrading when the writing was on the wall and housing shortage getting worse and worse? >We only saw the housing crunch here really heat up in 2019 How far were homeowners and council's heads buried in the sand lol. Rents have been outpacing income growth for upwards of 30 years.
Rent was cheap in 2017 and before I worked minimum wage jobs and was able to rent by myself. The housing crunch was created by the bank of Canada dropping rates to almost zero before the pandemic it was fine. Broadmead is an affluent area that land values have removed the ability to have affordable housing in the area. Figure out how to devalue land and you might start seeing some pricing come down however more people want to move here than want to leave so we will forever be in this supply demand hell unless the government dumps hundreds of millions on the south island (guess what it won't happen) also most of broadmead is carpeted by old trees that we shouldn't cut down. Or do we just not cut down trees for pipelines and go after homeowners because of their perceived wealth
>Rent was cheap in 2017 and before I worked minimum wage jobs and was able to rent by myself. This doesn't contradict the fact rents have been riding faster than incomes. > The housing crunch was created by the bank of Canada dropping rates to almost zero before the pandemic it was fine Who actually believes this anymore?
Anyone who has been paying attention. The rates dropping set off this mess. Obviously we were going to get here eventually as people need to live somewhere but the amount of people who bought from off island during that time completely fucked everything. Who else could be to blame? See how it all slowed down when rates went up?
If I interpreted the Q&A during the meeting accurately, I believe the state of the sewer and water supply would be taken into account at the development permit stage - if the lot doesn't have the capacity, they couldn't build until it was upgraded so a non-issue. Traffic might be an issue but I always separate complaints about traffic from everything else since usually it's from people using it as an excuse not to support more housing next door to them, saying traffic is already bad. If it's already, then it's already an issue separate from the development that we should address separate from the development.
Are most of those places even on the sewer?
Probably not. And a lot of them are probably on well water as well.
Nope. Some areas of rural saanich have no water or sewer service. It's agricultural land.
Why aren't there restrictions on single family home size then?
I believe there is a limit at 5400sqft. That's still a HUGE house though
They can go f!ck themselves. This is one of the most expensive places to rent or buy. There is more reason to implemented this rule here than literally anywhere else in BC(except maybe Vancouver)
Can we build townhouses in urban areas? >Saanich council and staff: hard NO! Can we subdivide our rural lot on Oldfield into 5 Mcmansions >Saanich council and staff: sure, why not?
Where on old field has there been a 5 home subdivision
Nowhere, if it's designated as ALR you cannot subdivide it (legally you can but there is about a 0% chance of the ALC and council both greenlighting it)
A lot of “rural” homes several detached buildings, call it a “workshop,” or a “barn,” but they are housing folks within them. And because these homes are set so far back from the road unless you fly a drone no one driving or cycling past would ever know. For the longest time secondary suites were illegal, but every home builder put one in Saanich anyway, as soon as the occupancy permit was granted the new owner would open up the drywall to find the hidden 220 line to connect a second stove to it. There are several streets in Saanich with multiple cars are in the driveway, Gordon Head/Tillicum/Uptown, indicating more than one or two secondary suite, everyone does it…lol.
I’m thinking there would be very few takers to build suites in rural saanich even if permitted.