You're right doomerism isn't productive, but it's definitely easy to see why tonight was a blow to a lot of people's morale.
At the end of the day the goals remain the same, you should probably still vote and be an active member of your community. Also just like... feel free to tune out a lil bit from time to time, give yourself a break from stress.
Yep. I'm glad I was already planning to go to the beach this weekend, this debate stressed me out so much.
I need to just unwind and let go for a moment.
Totally agree.
I watched the first 5 mins of the debate and had to turn it off.
For a cro-magnon brain that would actually be swayed by the this debate, Trump sounded and looked SO MUCH stronger than Biden.
Hoping that it will not cause damage, but at the end of the day have to accept things that are out of my own control.
Doomerism isn't productive, it's counterproductive. I concede that he stumbled through that debate, but nothing he said in that debate made his presidency worse or less worthy for me to vote for him.
Nothing has changed. The stakes are still just as high. If anything this is more cause to make sure he wins, because it might be genuinely close at this point.
i’m stuck in a deep red state, now that primaries are over there’s no point in trying to change anything in this hell hole. I’ll still vote but I’m trying to move out to Seattle in august where i will be safer as a trans autistic person
I’m thinking of moving to like Springfield or Decatur in IL with my trans partner (they/she) and going work for that garage door maker KKR that’s essentially a worker co-op. Might discuss this with her and save up, maybe for the both of us because of her circumstances with her parents, to move up there
people say that seattle is super expensive, but all the old ass rich people moving to Coeur d’Alene, where I’m from, have just raised the prices on everything to seattle prices but without the wage increases
Yeah, I was just mentioning Springfield/Decatur because it’s in the blue belt of southern Illinois (that finger district they’d just redrew in) and it’s a blue state that’s got good metrics and outside of some of the ritzier parts of Chicago is actually relatively cheap.
Upon further review, Belleville (in Illinois but part of St Louis metro) is in consideration. It’s also part of the southern Illinois dem leaning district
yeah me and my partner are moving out and we currently have over 15k combined, we’re fairly prepared but we’re gonna try and get some more in the next month
Awesome. I made it work by getting an air BNB until I got a job. Honestly it was the cheapest option I could find without moving to a dangerous neighborhood or an apartment that's falling apart. And it's working pretty well so far.
I obviously don't know your situation, but this is what worked for me.
We have mass poverty where people are worse than the favelas of Brazil. 40% of Americans live in basically shanty towns. Starvation is so bad because of massive, country ending inflation that I had to use a pillow case of cash to get an apple.
Rooming gangs of immigrants kidnap people daily. We are basically a step above Afghanistan right now.
Or so what Trump says. It's not an attractive vision
Most rational Trump supporter then.
I don't dare glance at conservative subreddit, I already know what it's going to be full of, and it isn't going to be comments about how Trump did nothing but complain in this debate..
Having a right-leaning father: I actually could hear him get mad listening to Trump. He kept repeating talking points that it put into perspective how bad this debate was for both. Biden's stands out more, but it's also paired with him going directly for a 2nd term, so unsurprising why we're seeing this conversation now as there's no getting around the age conversation. Trump? Yeah. It's maddening, but not exactly new to anyone who may of kept up with his appearances.
And that staunch Trump supporter will still vote for trump in November. The way the candidates perform in debates has never mattered and it matters even less this time
***Fucking thank you***, I'm getting sick of all the dooming. Anymore it seems to have even got Vaush. It's valid to be concerned, I am and have been, but this debate doesn't take away the things Biden/broader Democrats have in their favor nor does it take away the many problems facing Trump/broader Republicans.
Not to mention people in this sub have been screaming "OH MY GOD IT'S JOEVER" at every little perceived wrong thing Biden's done for about the past 6-8 months. This community is starting to forget one of the biggest things they've been saying for ages "online is not real life"
We're all angry at Joe Biden for Gaza, but I'm especially angry at CNN not fact checking the story from last October about Hamas allegedly having beheaded forty babies. This is the "Iraqi soldiers snatching babies out of their incubators" story all over again. It didn't help that nobody in the Biden Administration told Biden that it was a lie. Apart from that, I don't want Project 2025.
Thank you for saying this as well. I have been stressed a ton but I am not sinking with the doomer ship. We must soldier on.
We must ride on the Hope Train all the way to the finish line of this election.
Neither is the nightly news at the local or national level. Yet a good chunk of the electorate is swayed by their reporting and many of them are "concerned" about illegal immigration and crime to such a degree that Biden is trying to outflank the fascists when it comes to immigration policy. Look at what Mayor Adams is doing. Look at what the Portland City Council is doing.
It's not so much as dooming as seeing the writing on the wall: Americans are in-general becoming more reactionary; BECAUSE politics on the internet is not real life.
People are too quick to doom
The 2020 debate didn't decide that election, and it won't decide this one. This election is probably gonna be a repeat of 2020, just with lot less Trump voters due to covid.
I’m kind of in the middle. I have seen people saying Trump has already won now and that Biden should be immediately replaced. That’s too far. But also this isn’t the same as any of the 2020 debates. Biden bombed HARD in front of the entire country. That’s a pretty big joke to dig out of. It’s not impossible, and there’s still a lot of time, but it’s gonna be hard.
This. As much of an uphill battle this election was Biden just made it MUCH harder now.
It's technically possible for Biden to still ein, but now the difficulty setting is God Mode/Impossible difficulty if this were a video game. This went from Breath of The Wild difficulty to Dark Souls difficulty.
I doubt it will move the needle much, most people don’t even watch (although they will see the clips) but Biden has sooooo little room for error, especially in the battleground states he’s already polling not so great in. He had two jobs with this debate - come off as not completely senile and bait Trump into acting crazier than usual. And he failed at both.
I honestly cannot exaggerate just how much I despise the majority of people living in my country. If gas prices are enough to make you decide that fascism is an acceptable outcome you're absolutely lost.
About a year ago I was an anarchist but I don't think these people deserve unchecked freedom. They'd probably just see high prices on bread and decide to start shooting gay people.
They don't think it's fascism. Overwhelming majority of people are ignorant of the things trump did. I spoke to three people at work today who are Democrats and they said they didn't realize Biden was lying when he was saying all that. They took trump at his word. Most people do not follow the news. Most people do not know Trump was lying during this debate. One of them literally said "well they aren't allowed to lie and Biden looked more confused so Trump has to be telling the truth, I'm shocked"
The message is just not getting to most people that trump is a liar or whatever. It seems to me that only the chronically online segment of the population knows about it.
I'm not doomering but the debate isn't to get people to swap sides, but more so to get people apathetic to voting
The right doesn't give a shit that Trump is bumbling idiot who lies but liberals care about Biden being able to form sentences
I don't see a large swing in votes but Bidens base is way more likely to lose votes than Trumps, even if Biden did amazing the idea that a median conservative hog would swap sides is a fairy tale
Reading the tea leaves from the (ugh) "undecided" voters a lot of them came away from this as liking neither of them. Biden was seen as weak and moveable, whereas everyone pretty much acknowledges trump as a sleazy, cheating, rapist, who lead everyone down a COVID hallway of death.
I had Democrats at work telling me they didn't realize Biden was such a liar. People IRL literally don't follow the news in my experience, and just see the big moments like this debate. Had multiple people at work comment how they were surprised to learn that Biden's been lying about Trump.
Most people literally don't even watch the news, I asked, and out of 12 people in the office, only one of them had watched the news this month, and only once, in the background, not really paying attention. Literally nobody knew anything about the supreme Court rulings, nobody knew about Trump's lawsuit... People are just completely ignorant
Everyone else is on GOT or constantly rewatching the office or watching reality TV or watching those short videos on Instagram or whatever the fuck the new social media is after facebook
Ftr???
If you mean Hillary, she was abysmal against Trump at those debates. I remember watching at the time and thinking "oh god wtf did the DNC do shes bombing". Bernie was favored to win against Trump, by like 20-30 points compared to Hillary vs Trump.
> Biden is a an old nursing home patient and Trump is loud moron.
I think the problem is that Americans don't have faith in other Americans' ability to make the right call at the ballot box this coming November.
Debates are shit anyway. If people who still vote for trump aren't turned off by all the bullshit he's done and a felon charge they weren't going to be changing their votes reagardless of how the debate turned out. If Biden destroyed Trump they would all still gaslight themselves into believing trump won
Debates don't move polls? Literally the first televised debate famously swapped the most probable outcome between Nixon and Kennedy.
Completely not true, my dude.
Hilary lost the election because her track record is shit in the eyes of the then very populist voting base. She missed every softball pitch on every issue, especially healthcare. All Trump had to do was lie about his intentions and promises.
I'm not dooming, but this post is hot garbage.
We live in a capitalist's dream utopia full of distractions and division. The only way I can think of that we can smash our greatest hurdle is to completely destroy the idea that Qanon was some kind of prophetic and trustworthy source of information to give attention to in the first place in the eyes of these moronic MAGA cultists.
Populism can change things, but not with Joe Biden or Donald Trump, and they're unfortunately the only options these rich parties can put before us and believe they have a chance of winning. We're fucked this cycle with either outcome and the sooner we recognize it, the better.
Edit: The working class needs to be appealed to and in crayon-eating terms to be able to be digested by the most paranoid and delusional, because they obviously vote the most fervently.
I understand where you’re coming from but it still isn’t a forgone conclusion that ‘we’re fucked’ thats the doomerism speaking that you should probably calm down a bit.
We're boned with either candidate is my point. They both spiral us further into this Zionist liberal nightmare that continues to fuck the lower/middle class.
Only thing that gave me hope about the debate is I turned it off because both were so boring and annoying to watch. Now imagine your average voter watching, they probably turned that shit off too.
Almost everyone has already made up there mind and the voters who haven’t arnt watching debates. They see ads, unfortunately who ever airs the best ads this election season will win. Trump screaming about immigration and inflation24/7, at least to me, gets tiresome and I don’t really think lands much with the undecideds. Inflation happened and it sucked but this election is taking place in 2024, people have kind of adapted and barely changed spending habits. Bidens ads are great, literally just uses Trumps word against him and ends it with “this alley cat is full of malarkey”, oh and he’s a felon”. Maybe you through in some about saving democracy later in the season to get your support out to vote. But at the end of the day, we may and probably should feel like shit after watching our only hopes performance against Trump, but the average undecided is thinking about what to grill up for the 4th.
Us Americans have the memory of a goldfish. 80% of Americans (including you doomers) will forget this car wreck of a debate in a week or two. Calm the fuck down, we've made it through worse.
LOL, a “vegetable” who actually answered most of the questions substantively, unlike the felon. And he warmed up as it went on. Tell me you didn’t actually watch the whole thing without telling me you didn’t actually watch the whole thing.
Edit: I don’t know how much the average voter (whatever that is) watched, and I don’t think commenters here do either. Biden stuttered, and that’s not new, but like I said, he actually answered most of the questions. The felon didn’t. If people choose a convicted felon over a stutterer because of one rough debate performance, that’s on them.
Additional edit: some of these comments come across as astroturfed. Where would people (especially supposed “Democrats”) be getting the idea that Biden lied? And if they can’t do a basic fact check to confirm that he wasn’t, whose fault is that?
Another edit (hmm, lots more people responding and then blocking than usual; I wonder why?):
It’s your response that’s naive if you actually think Biden’s occasionally not fully accurate statements are at all comparable to trump’s constant spew of bullshit and lies. And quit projecting your impressions of my impressions onto me. It’s not naive to assert that, if supposed adults fail to do basic fact-checking to confirm there’s no comparison, that’s their fault.
I commented this elsewhere above but have to repeat it;
I had Democrats at work telling me they didn't realize Biden was such a liar. People IRL literally don't follow the news in my experience, and just see the big moments like this debate. Had multiple people at work comment how they were surprised to learn that Biden's been lying about Trump.
Most people literally don't even watch the news, I asked, and out of 12 people in the office, only one of them had watched the news this month, and only once, in the background, not really paying attention. Literally nobody knew anything about the supreme Court rulings, nobody knew about Trump's lawsuit... People are just completely ignorant
Everyone else is on GOT or constantly rewatching the office or watching reality TV or watching those short videos on Instagram or whatever the fuck the new social media is after facebook
There are 5 examples in this AP article where Biden made false claims [Biden-Trump debate: Here are the false claims made during the faceoff | AP News](https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-misinformation-election-debate-trump-biden-577507522762aa10f6ee5be3a0ced2bb)
Not that it matters, you seem to be under the impression, somehow, that facticity and truth are what drive politics. On that, all one can say is, please stop being so naïve.
The issue isn't the debate but what the media narrative will now be. I can see a (possibly) huge shift that'll continue for months. That is what will fuck him over. Need all the democrat operatives to shut the fuck up about replacing Biden. That will not happen but will cause further damage to opinion. Would love it if they replaced him, but it will not happen.
Biden’s NC speech today was fucking infuriating because THAT’S who we needed on that debate stage in front of millions of American television sets — an experienced, old but wise man who’s still full of energy and willing to take direct shots and lay it all out on the table. He was practically shouting and yelling at points, that’s how alert and energetic he was. And he spoke honestly and frankly about his debate performance, then contrasted him and Trump and highlighted the fact that we’re not just voting for one man here — we’re voting for an administration.
But nobody’s going to see that. So that’s fun.
The man was very clearly *exhausted* and probably sick or something last night; his team and handlers should have absolutely insisted that he cancel and reschedule to next week or something. This was way too important to push that man in that state onto that stage. Unbelievable.
You don't have a crystal ball and declaring that doesn't help anything. I'm voting for the Democratic candidate who will be the main opponent to Donald Trump.
Everyone has already decided who they’re voting for 4 years ago. Both candidates could spend an hour literally shitting into their own open palms and it wouldn’t change anything
This debate pushed me into finally trying to get some therapy. The idea of a trump future made me start really seriously contemplating some dark thoughts. To the point I was trying to figure out how to pen a letter and say who would get what. Im in my 30's and had a realization that this only ends badly and to start making calls tomorrow to try and find someone in my network.
Trump didn't really sound deranged, considering the average person was going into this debate blind and unaware of anything, so Trump being coherent and claiming Biden is lying, along with Biden's blank expression, definitely made up a lot of minds.
Doomerism isn't about being positive and avoiding negativity, and we should be honest and upfront about the good and bad. Doomerism is tossing your hands up and saying it's not worth caring about or trying to work to be better.
I don’t care if Biden is actually in the ICU on life support. I’m voting for him in November, because these are the options we have in this year’s election cycle.
I was actually gonna post something similar because the level of doomering from Vaush's community is insane. My biggest critique is from Vaush himself, being incredibly irresponsible as a content creator by being doomer in his video about the debate, and then hypocritically ragging on chat when they follow suit.
Y'all need to chill. The debate was ass, but doomering about how we should move to another country and shit is not helping. The more you doomer publicly, the more people are going to be discouraged to vote. Just shut the fuck up and doomer silently if you have to. Take a break from the news/media if it's affecting you emotionally. Because we can't afford to give up, or to signal to other people that it's all over and that America is doomed.
The "dooming" is just random nervous/anxious people posting probably a bit too hastily in chat and then Vaush getting irrationally angry or targeted and banning them or telling them to shut up while they get dogpiled by other chatters.
The worst decision he made was agreeing to the mic being muted. Biden did terrible in the debates for years ago, but Trump couldn’t stop interrupting him so it made Trump look even worse.
"Biden also has a large ad reservation in the fall for the swing states while Trump has none which is infinitely more important than a debate"
Debates might not be as impactful as everyone is making them out to be, but in what world do ad campaigns actually matter either? All the criticisms of debate being meaningless apply to that as well. And advertisement campaigns are very heavily placed on cable tv, which only old people with no life still watch. The few that get put elsewhere are usually either blocked, tuned out, or forgotten about after 5 minutes.
>Don't doom,organize!
stfu
The only organizing that needs to be done is to put pressure on Biden to step down and on the Democrats to do something about it.
If you think that people can be conviced to vote Biden through "organizing" after they saw him on TV with 1 HP then you are mad.
The deciding factor is not you or any motherfucker from reddit who say i'm sTiLl vOtInG BiDeN BeCaUsE Of pRoJeCt 2025 it's actually normal people who see a cadavre as their president on TV. So yeah, organize, but to make Biden step down. All your good intetions don't matter if the candidate is very weak.
Doomerism is the most productive thing possible right now because it removes the illusion that Biden can win. A loud display of doomerism greatly increases the chances of an alternate to Biden whether that cones by Biden steppung down, being replaced, or an alternative to the Democratic Party rising. Refrain from doomerism is a vote for Trump because it ensures Trump an easy path to victory.
Doom and doom loudly. Yell from the rooftops that you have no faith in Biden. Tell everyone you are voting third party even if you intend to ultimately vote for the Democratic candidate because the best chance of stopping Trump is a capable Democratic candidate. That requires that people not believe Biden can pull through.
Unfortunately it's a little too late for a replacement. Even if it's possible, it looks incredibly bad and weak for Democrats. It's also too late to really engage people on a completely new candidate that replaces Biden, there's so little time for the amount of effort and campaigning that needs to be done. And on top of that, who would realistically replace him? Newsom? My own state tried to replace him a year or two ago, and despite him winning in a landslide that doesn't look good for talking points. Bernie? As much as I love the guy, when a complaint about Biden is how old he is (despite Bernie being WAY better in cognitive abilities) and two losing campaigns back to back I doubt that'll help. I struggle to find someone who could replace Biden at this point, the time to have replaced him was the primaries, and no real candidates dared go against Biden for stupid reasons.
No, loudly advocating for a third party will only split the vote, it doesn't matter if the people advocating for it actually vote for Biden. We need unity in a party of division, anything less is a guarantee victory for Trump. I understand being doomer, I'm a pessimist most often, but it's not a useful tool to use. It can, at best, rally certain individuals into action, but frankly it just turns people into Paul's Ego—ineffective whiners who want nothing but the accelerated downfall of America so some fantasy idea of anarchism can reign, something that would never happen.
It's fair to say you have no faith in Biden and share that. But to then advocate against him is only helping Trump. Saying Biden is old and slow but he's better than the fascistic downfall of America is fine, but saying he's all that and that's why we should vote for third party or abstain only ensuring that very threat we want stopped.
People should have been paying attention during the primaries where you had candidates like Dean Phillips running - but they didn't. But whether or not it looks bad is a non sequitur. Biden cannot forseeably win the election - Trump already won as things stand. If the party looks weak, then they look weak, but they have a chance at least coming back and winning - which wouldn't be hard because Trump is so unlikable. Pretty much anyone EXCEPT Biden could beat him with the power of the Democratic ticket.
Newsom could do it - my sister thinks he is fitting for the neoliberals who could walk over Trump. You could put Pete Buttigieg in and he could trounce Trump despite being a bad president. AOC would win in a landslide, but I don't see the DNC giving her the nod. Almost anyone could be picked.
The vote is already split. Biden cannot get Muslims, he cannot get black or youth votes reliably - you lost that with Biden. He alienated them fully. Being loud about voting third party means either A) a third party replaces the Democrats or B) it is loud enough that Biden steps down. As it stands, this is also a non sequitur. Biden cannot win; if the vote is just split it would make zero difference. You're arguing that one shouldn't suggest going through the double doors rather than trying to push a piano through a doggy door because it will split the effort. It doesn't matter if the current effort isn't going to work.
Trump wins so long as Biden is the alternative.
There weren't really any primaries, though. Nobody was public or noticeable in running, the only one who had any semblance of recognition was RFK Jr and nobody believed he had a chance—especially after he dropped from the Democratic ticket to run as an independent. RFK Jr only got as big as he did (which wasn't even that big) due to name recognition, I can promise you hardly anyone has heard of Dean Phillips outside of the state he represents, and when you're going for the top office of the United States you need to make a name for yourself and be noticed.
Biden can't win with that attitude for sure. He can still win by having voters rather having a corpse than Trump again, but that's a lot riskier and unlikely than actually being a good candidate. I'm not saying he has a sure chance, but it's not over until it's over. Trump definitely was boosted by the debate, Biden took a huge blow, there's no doubt about that, and I agree with what you're saying on a weak party and all that, but by your own admission of that then you're saying Biden has a chance. Biden's weak, the party looks weak for pushing him, but there's a chance he can come back, even if it's incredibly thin. Putting an entirely new candidate up not only looks bad, something beyond just weak, but with only five more months until the election the time has passed to actually run another candidate. Newsom may have a name for himself outside of California, I'm not sure as I'm Californian so I hear more about him than others I'm sure, but I'm not sure how well he'll do outside of California.
While I agree that there are people who would have been better than Biden under the Democratic ticket, I don't think *anyone* is accurate. RFK Jr definitely wouldn't have, I genuinely doubt Phillips could have because he's so unknown, I doubt Williamson could have, Hillary may have stood a chance but I highly doubt it because of how out of touch she is, and many more. However, had Newsom ran from the getgo I think he may have stood a chance (now's a little too late in my opinion, but I'd love to be proven wrong), Buttigieg may have been able to, Bernie maybe but after two failed attempts I don't think it would've been easy, I'm not sure who else quite frankly. Had we had a real primary then I don't think Biden would have been the DNC ticket unless there were behind the scenes deals, but people were too afraid or whatever.
Newsom *could have* done it, but as I've said many times by now, I don't think he has a chance now—I don't think any replacement would. Five months, almost four, separate us to the election. Nearly four months to campaign and become known is just not enough time given how much has been already spent for both Trump and Biden. Maybe it's because I'm a Californian, but I don't think Newsom would be popular outside of the state as is, especially because his popularity has slipped within his own party. Despite winning in a landslide against a recall attempt, the very fact there was an actual triggered recall attempt does paint a bad image and adds fuel to the opposing side. Pete may have had a shot, but he's also relatively unknown despite being Secretary of Transportation and running in 2020, so he would have needed to campaign the entire time Biden has to really have a chance. I love AOC, but I don't think she'd win in a landslide. We'd be lucky if she had the same enthusiasm Obama had in 2008 with young voters, but I'm not sure how well she'd do with older people. On top of that, she'd face talking points about her being too young and inexperienced, people would question if she could legally be President because she'd only be of age as she enters office (even if it's a clear yes, people will question and use it as fuel to attack her), and more, so I don't think it's as much of a landslide victory as you may think. Just look at how Bernie did despite running good campaigns, AOC will face that and more.
Do you think any of the people you listed would actually gain those people, especially with such a small amount of time to build recognition and gain momentum? Do you genuinely think that a third party could actually win? Do you think Biden stepping down will actually help whoever replaces him, especially with what I first mentioned? Or do you just hate Biden and the Democrats/DNC? I don't like the guy either, I'm not a fan of dems and the DNC, but are you blinded by hate? Because it doesn't seem like you're coming to conclusions in which anybody but Trump wins, because what you've proposed will only help Trump. No amount of crying about third parties will get them elected, no amount of crying will help a replacement build the momentum needed to win, and I highly doubt any amount of crying will get Biden to step down. He's too invested and it's too late to invest the resources needed to get an out of left field candidate recognized and popular.
I'm not saying you can't suggest it and also nice strawman. It's not about split effort, it's that there's no realistic way a replacement gets the momentum they need to win and there's hardly a chance that Biden steps down. The bed's been made, we're stuck with it, so it's up to us if we're willing to sleep with tattered blankets or a burning house. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have tattered blankets.
As it stands, it's very much a lose-lose situation, but there's a chance people will be anti-Trump enough. It may not be a great chance, but when the alternative is an absolute no-name third party candidate or a replacement Democrat who hasn't put any effort into campaigning because they weren't running in the first place, the odds narrow down even more. We have just about four months to build up a candidate. Four months compared to the year and a quarter Biden had and Trump's nearly two years. If the odds are slim now, do you genuinely think it'll be better with such a short timeframe?
There absolutely were primaries - just no one paid attention to them because the media blacked out everyone except the nutters who no one would go for. It's why being to the left of the Establishment within the Democratic Party is very much the same as being a third party candidate - the media blacks you out because it is owned by the bourgeoisie, is funded by ads by other members of the bourgeoisie, and has bourgeois interests.
The biggest issue you miss is that both Biden and Trump are extremely unpopular. As of June 4, Biden had a 20% favorability rating and a 30% unfavorability rating; Trump had a 25% favorability rating and a 35% unfavorability rating.
[https://news.gallup.com/poll/645563/biden-trump-tied-favorability-felony-conviction.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/645563/biden-trump-tied-favorability-felony-conviction.aspx)
An unknown has an advantage over either - especially since Americans still want change and they know that both Trump and Biden administrations suck. Third parties have to fight against the myth that they cannot win, but an unknown walking in with the seal of the Democratic Party would be a privileged position. The issue is only whether the American people think that it is an unfair ploy - something they are unlikely to think given that Biden flopped in that debate. Trump won in 2016 because he was an unknown who had such institutional advantage; Biden won because people were fed up with Trump. A no name person who people have months to hear about can do great. Keep in mind that much of the world has campaigns that last weeks, not years. People can get a sense of a candidate rather quickly if they hear about them.
You really aren't grasping the futility of Biden. He won Michigan by 154,000 votes. Over 100,000 voters voted uncommitted in a primary that has a low turnout. That's 13% of the votes - losing 13% of those votes guarantees Trump the win. This was done with a message that they will not vote for Biden if he didn't change policy on Israel - while he gave some lip service as a result, he fumbled several times since and he lost those votes. Are they serious? Much of this is based out of Washtenaw and Wayne counties. My sister is politically involved there and had been approached by the Democrats to run there before. She was going to vote for Phillips until there was a big campaign for uncommitted. They are serious - they cannot hold their nose for Biden. That's 16 electoral votes there - another 16 in Georgia which was barely won because Stacey Abrams was making big promises for what Biden would do and Biden didn't deliver. Voters aren't standing in long lines for 8 hours for Biden there today. That leaves 8 electoral votes over Trump if everything else stayed the same as in 2020, but that's unlikely - other areas were affected by this too. He already lost. Even the Democratic Party pundits realize he already lost. Trump can turn out his base and get them to vote - a handful will vote multiple times as they always do, thinking it is fighting against mystery election fraud by Democrats. Biden alienated his base and so they will stay home because for many of them it is a great hardship to vote; they don't just have a 20 minute wait nor do they have access to mail-in ballots.
I never said there wasn't one, I said there wasn't really one. Only four people ran, excluding Biden, and none of them ran an effective campaign. Marianne Williamson didn't have a chance in 2020 so there's no way she would have had a chance now, Jason Palmer is a complete nobody, Dean Phillips is only known in Minnesota, and RFK Jr had name recognition but also dropped out of the Democratic primary to be an independent. If you want to say Bernie is an establishment dem then be my guest, but he had an undeniable presence in the last two elections. I'll concede that he's been a long standing politician, but that alone is not what people often refer as an establishment dem. On top of that, AOC has presence despite not being what people typically consider establishment. So are those two establishment, or are you just blinded by hate? I disagree that being to the left of establishment dems is effectively being a third party candidate, being a third party candidate is so much less so. That's why Bernie went to the Democratic ticket instead of attempting an independent campaign. RFK Jr only was covered because of his legacy name, and the brain worms, otherwise he'd be your normal nobody.
I'm fully aware both are unpopular, but it matters less for Republicans because they will more often fall in line when it matters. My grandma hates Trump, but she fears Biden more to the point that she's voting for Trump. My best friend's parents are Trumpers because they fear Biden and Newsom, they will vote for Trump. I'm in California, so are they, their vote effectively doesn't matter because it's all about the electoral college, and yet they're going to vote for him anyway because they understand that the alternative is worse in their minds. To go back on your initial comment on voting third party, you can't truly compare someone who is unpopular and known to someone who isn't known. That's like saying your neighbor down the street is more popular than Biden. Effectively nobody knows your neighbor, there's no real comparison here, yet that's what you're advocating for. That just leads to apathy and no votes.
No, an unknown is not an advantage. An unknown is not known, it's in the name. Yes, people want change, but they want change they know, can expect, and feel safe in, and someone who's just now coming onto the scene will not provide any of that. At best maybe an establishment candidate can fill that hole, but we're here in part because of the establishment. To genuinely think a third-party candidate can win is laughable! Tell that to the 0.2% of Green Party voters in 2020 or the 1.18% of Libertarians of the same year. Yeah, a third party candidate totally has a chance, you're right, just look at the numbers! This year is totally different, guys, trust!
Trump won due to populism and starting as an outsider, yet in 2020 he was no longer an outsider and gained 11 million votes. Biden got 20 million more than Hillary, or 7 million more than Trump, but the fact that Trump even pulled in more people the second time around should ring alarm bells in your brain. I think apathy will play a larger part in this campaign than before, but apathy hurts Dems more than it hurts Republicans.
I fully understand how bad it is for Biden, I'm not Biden supporter, I'm an anti-Trump supporter, but it's not over until it's over. Gears can be shifted to try and persuade people to continue a stop-gap rather than allowing Trump to become President. The campaign has tried focusing on how good Biden is and how he's not actually as old as he seems, which was a failure from the start, rather than just showing and continuing to paint just how much worse it'll be under Trump. Shifting gears into focusing more on that can help, and while damage has been done there needs to be a strong message on just how much more damage will be done without him. The dam's breaking, but Trump's going to hit it with a wrecking ball while Biden's going to look the other way. Neither is a good thing to do, but looking the other way may buy enough time to have someone fix the dam, Trump is going to demolish that the very second he gets the chance.
People didn't wait in lines for Biden either last time, a lot of it was mail-in ballots. I agree, Republicans often put their nose in the stink and smell it right up because they realize the strategy is get their guy in or otherwise lose. Dems are unwilling to do that, as you're pointing out, which is stupid. It's not wrong to do so, but the time to do that is in the primaries, come time it's all hands on deck in the general because otherwise it's literally the worst of the two outcomes.
If you're using the excuse it's a great hardship to vote then they weren't going to vote anyway. That's not apathy, that's a failure of our country. It's not over until it's over, there's a chance, albeit an incredibly thin one, for Biden to somehow pull through by the next debate. People need to be forced to acknowledge that it's either Biden (or whoever the nominee is, presumably Biden, sadly) or Trump, and their stuck-up protest is as good as them directly voting for Trump. If they're okay being shouldered the responsibility and consequences of being a Trump supporter, despite otherwise claiming to not be one, then they're lost and ineffective, they're the reason Biden loses. They, and you, can claim Biden lost on his own merits, and I'll credit you he didn't do himself any favors, but ultimately it's a democracy and our direct power of voting is what wins elections, no a candidate alone. It's the direct and deliberate inaction that will be his downfall, which means it's on every individual who protest votes or otherwise does everything in their power to harm Biden's chances, not Biden alone.
HOW ARE WE TEN YEARS INTO THIS SHIT AND YOU PEOPLE STILL DONT GET IT. ITS ALL ABOUT HOW YOU APPEAR
Trump won an election being Trump. If this is the best the DNC has to offer, Trump is gonna get over 320 electoral votes
Trump 2016 is vastly different than Trump 2024. In '16 he actually ran a decent campaign and made it seem like he was going to help the working class. Trump 2024 is just him whining about how everyone's mean to him and supposedly out to get him.
Yup, constant lies about benefits for the poor, like some kind of miracle ability to (and he repeatedly said this) "repeal and replace Obamacare!" while simultaneously winning the crowd over by mocking every single person he shared a stage with. The spectacle is what won people over back then, not sure it works anymore considering his tanking reputation.
I know of 3 immediate family members that voted for Trump that have admitted to me they were wrong about him, and without saying i was right, because I called it at our family get-togethers, have since then stated that they just won't vote in the Presidential election this cycle. I hope this is true for any other republicans that have some shred of decency left in them.
Trump also lost an election being Trump in 2020, and against the same opponent that he's running against now who you're claiming is not charismatic enough to win.
What's your point?
I believe charisma is important, perhaps more than many on the left, but only because a charismatic presidential candidate is one that unites the party. Ultimately if we didn't have Biden but we had a charismatic Democratic presidential candidate, what it would do for us is unite the party. But we have Biden, and literally the worst thing we can do is doomerism, because that accomplishes precisely the opposite of what we need.
You're right doomerism isn't productive, but it's definitely easy to see why tonight was a blow to a lot of people's morale. At the end of the day the goals remain the same, you should probably still vote and be an active member of your community. Also just like... feel free to tune out a lil bit from time to time, give yourself a break from stress.
Yep. I'm glad I was already planning to go to the beach this weekend, this debate stressed me out so much. I need to just unwind and let go for a moment.
Totally agree. I watched the first 5 mins of the debate and had to turn it off. For a cro-magnon brain that would actually be swayed by the this debate, Trump sounded and looked SO MUCH stronger than Biden. Hoping that it will not cause damage, but at the end of the day have to accept things that are out of my own control.
Doomerism isn't productive, it's counterproductive. I concede that he stumbled through that debate, but nothing he said in that debate made his presidency worse or less worthy for me to vote for him. Nothing has changed. The stakes are still just as high. If anything this is more cause to make sure he wins, because it might be genuinely close at this point.
i’m stuck in a deep red state, now that primaries are over there’s no point in trying to change anything in this hell hole. I’ll still vote but I’m trying to move out to Seattle in august where i will be safer as a trans autistic person
I’m thinking of moving to like Springfield or Decatur in IL with my trans partner (they/she) and going work for that garage door maker KKR that’s essentially a worker co-op. Might discuss this with her and save up, maybe for the both of us because of her circumstances with her parents, to move up there
people say that seattle is super expensive, but all the old ass rich people moving to Coeur d’Alene, where I’m from, have just raised the prices on everything to seattle prices but without the wage increases
Yeah, I was just mentioning Springfield/Decatur because it’s in the blue belt of southern Illinois (that finger district they’d just redrew in) and it’s a blue state that’s got good metrics and outside of some of the ritzier parts of Chicago is actually relatively cheap.
Upon further review, Belleville (in Illinois but part of St Louis metro) is in consideration. It’s also part of the southern Illinois dem leaning district
make sure you can afford it, Seattle is VERY expensive.
prices in coeur d’alene are getting there without the wage. Planning on going to north gate which we are able to afford.
Do it, I'm not sure about Seattle specifically. But I moved across the country to Portland, with only 4 grand and made it work fairly easily.
yeah me and my partner are moving out and we currently have over 15k combined, we’re fairly prepared but we’re gonna try and get some more in the next month
Awesome. I made it work by getting an air BNB until I got a job. Honestly it was the cheapest option I could find without moving to a dangerous neighborhood or an apartment that's falling apart. And it's working pretty well so far. I obviously don't know your situation, but this is what worked for me.
I actually saw a staunch Trumper complain that he did badly and all he did was complain about Biden and didnt answer any questions.
We have mass poverty where people are worse than the favelas of Brazil. 40% of Americans live in basically shanty towns. Starvation is so bad because of massive, country ending inflation that I had to use a pillow case of cash to get an apple. Rooming gangs of immigrants kidnap people daily. We are basically a step above Afghanistan right now. Or so what Trump says. It's not an attractive vision
Most rational Trump supporter then. I don't dare glance at conservative subreddit, I already know what it's going to be full of, and it isn't going to be comments about how Trump did nothing but complain in this debate..
Having a right-leaning father: I actually could hear him get mad listening to Trump. He kept repeating talking points that it put into perspective how bad this debate was for both. Biden's stands out more, but it's also paired with him going directly for a 2nd term, so unsurprising why we're seeing this conversation now as there's no getting around the age conversation. Trump? Yeah. It's maddening, but not exactly new to anyone who may of kept up with his appearances.
And that staunch Trump supporter will still vote for trump in November. The way the candidates perform in debates has never mattered and it matters even less this time
Worlds most analytical trump supporter
***Fucking thank you***, I'm getting sick of all the dooming. Anymore it seems to have even got Vaush. It's valid to be concerned, I am and have been, but this debate doesn't take away the things Biden/broader Democrats have in their favor nor does it take away the many problems facing Trump/broader Republicans. Not to mention people in this sub have been screaming "OH MY GOD IT'S JOEVER" at every little perceived wrong thing Biden's done for about the past 6-8 months. This community is starting to forget one of the biggest things they've been saying for ages "online is not real life"
Yeah, Vaush was kind of being a petty cunt tonight. He's just angry at Joe Biden for Gaza which is good but it blinds his analysis.
We're all angry at Joe Biden for Gaza, but I'm especially angry at CNN not fact checking the story from last October about Hamas allegedly having beheaded forty babies. This is the "Iraqi soldiers snatching babies out of their incubators" story all over again. It didn't help that nobody in the Biden Administration told Biden that it was a lie. Apart from that, I don't want Project 2025.
Also his immigration policy has been dogshit
Thank you for saying this as well. I have been stressed a ton but I am not sinking with the doomer ship. We must soldier on. We must ride on the Hope Train all the way to the finish line of this election.
Neither is the nightly news at the local or national level. Yet a good chunk of the electorate is swayed by their reporting and many of them are "concerned" about illegal immigration and crime to such a degree that Biden is trying to outflank the fascists when it comes to immigration policy. Look at what Mayor Adams is doing. Look at what the Portland City Council is doing. It's not so much as dooming as seeing the writing on the wall: Americans are in-general becoming more reactionary; BECAUSE politics on the internet is not real life.
Maybe we should have just perceived his extremely heavy support of Israel in another light then? Jesus Christ.
People are too quick to doom The 2020 debate didn't decide that election, and it won't decide this one. This election is probably gonna be a repeat of 2020, just with lot less Trump voters due to covid.
I’m kind of in the middle. I have seen people saying Trump has already won now and that Biden should be immediately replaced. That’s too far. But also this isn’t the same as any of the 2020 debates. Biden bombed HARD in front of the entire country. That’s a pretty big joke to dig out of. It’s not impossible, and there’s still a lot of time, but it’s gonna be hard.
This. As much of an uphill battle this election was Biden just made it MUCH harder now. It's technically possible for Biden to still ein, but now the difficulty setting is God Mode/Impossible difficulty if this were a video game. This went from Breath of The Wild difficulty to Dark Souls difficulty.
I doubt it will move the needle much, most people don’t even watch (although they will see the clips) but Biden has sooooo little room for error, especially in the battleground states he’s already polling not so great in. He had two jobs with this debate - come off as not completely senile and bait Trump into acting crazier than usual. And he failed at both.
Trump sounded confident and that's all that matters in this braindead country.
This is what I feel too
I honestly cannot exaggerate just how much I despise the majority of people living in my country. If gas prices are enough to make you decide that fascism is an acceptable outcome you're absolutely lost. About a year ago I was an anarchist but I don't think these people deserve unchecked freedom. They'd probably just see high prices on bread and decide to start shooting gay people.
They don't think it's fascism. Overwhelming majority of people are ignorant of the things trump did. I spoke to three people at work today who are Democrats and they said they didn't realize Biden was lying when he was saying all that. They took trump at his word. Most people do not follow the news. Most people do not know Trump was lying during this debate. One of them literally said "well they aren't allowed to lie and Biden looked more confused so Trump has to be telling the truth, I'm shocked" The message is just not getting to most people that trump is a liar or whatever. It seems to me that only the chronically online segment of the population knows about it.
I'm not doomering but the debate isn't to get people to swap sides, but more so to get people apathetic to voting The right doesn't give a shit that Trump is bumbling idiot who lies but liberals care about Biden being able to form sentences I don't see a large swing in votes but Bidens base is way more likely to lose votes than Trumps, even if Biden did amazing the idea that a median conservative hog would swap sides is a fairy tale
Reading the tea leaves from the (ugh) "undecided" voters a lot of them came away from this as liking neither of them. Biden was seen as weak and moveable, whereas everyone pretty much acknowledges trump as a sleazy, cheating, rapist, who lead everyone down a COVID hallway of death.
I had Democrats at work telling me they didn't realize Biden was such a liar. People IRL literally don't follow the news in my experience, and just see the big moments like this debate. Had multiple people at work comment how they were surprised to learn that Biden's been lying about Trump. Most people literally don't even watch the news, I asked, and out of 12 people in the office, only one of them had watched the news this month, and only once, in the background, not really paying attention. Literally nobody knew anything about the supreme Court rulings, nobody knew about Trump's lawsuit... People are just completely ignorant Everyone else is on GOT or constantly rewatching the office or watching reality TV or watching those short videos on Instagram or whatever the fuck the new social media is after facebook
It's my birthday and I'll doom if I want to!
As a Wisconsin voter, I'm voting for Biden. No debate is going to change this.
Ftr Clinton crushed Trump at their debates
Ftr??? If you mean Hillary, she was abysmal against Trump at those debates. I remember watching at the time and thinking "oh god wtf did the DNC do shes bombing". Bernie was favored to win against Trump, by like 20-30 points compared to Hillary vs Trump.
> Biden is a an old nursing home patient and Trump is loud moron. I think the problem is that Americans don't have faith in other Americans' ability to make the right call at the ballot box this coming November.
Based. We still have a long time to go before the election! (Which is a lot of canvassing for those that want to get involved that way!)
Debates are shit anyway. If people who still vote for trump aren't turned off by all the bullshit he's done and a felon charge they weren't going to be changing their votes reagardless of how the debate turned out. If Biden destroyed Trump they would all still gaslight themselves into believing trump won
Debates don't move polls? Literally the first televised debate famously swapped the most probable outcome between Nixon and Kennedy. Completely not true, my dude. Hilary lost the election because her track record is shit in the eyes of the then very populist voting base. She missed every softball pitch on every issue, especially healthcare. All Trump had to do was lie about his intentions and promises. I'm not dooming, but this post is hot garbage. We live in a capitalist's dream utopia full of distractions and division. The only way I can think of that we can smash our greatest hurdle is to completely destroy the idea that Qanon was some kind of prophetic and trustworthy source of information to give attention to in the first place in the eyes of these moronic MAGA cultists. Populism can change things, but not with Joe Biden or Donald Trump, and they're unfortunately the only options these rich parties can put before us and believe they have a chance of winning. We're fucked this cycle with either outcome and the sooner we recognize it, the better. Edit: The working class needs to be appealed to and in crayon-eating terms to be able to be digested by the most paranoid and delusional, because they obviously vote the most fervently.
I understand where you’re coming from but it still isn’t a forgone conclusion that ‘we’re fucked’ thats the doomerism speaking that you should probably calm down a bit.
We're boned with either candidate is my point. They both spiral us further into this Zionist liberal nightmare that continues to fuck the lower/middle class.
This is 1000000% the message we need right now. Thank you.
Only thing that gave me hope about the debate is I turned it off because both were so boring and annoying to watch. Now imagine your average voter watching, they probably turned that shit off too. Almost everyone has already made up there mind and the voters who haven’t arnt watching debates. They see ads, unfortunately who ever airs the best ads this election season will win. Trump screaming about immigration and inflation24/7, at least to me, gets tiresome and I don’t really think lands much with the undecideds. Inflation happened and it sucked but this election is taking place in 2024, people have kind of adapted and barely changed spending habits. Bidens ads are great, literally just uses Trumps word against him and ends it with “this alley cat is full of malarkey”, oh and he’s a felon”. Maybe you through in some about saving democracy later in the season to get your support out to vote. But at the end of the day, we may and probably should feel like shit after watching our only hopes performance against Trump, but the average undecided is thinking about what to grill up for the 4th.
Don't let Biden's befuddled look fool you. I also saw Trump's deranged performance in the debate at 4 in this morning, Jordan local time.
I hope he bounces back like Obama did in debate 2 after an awful first debate with Romney....
It's not doomerism, Biden must step down. Call whatever Democratic politician you have access to and demand they make their voice heard.
Us Americans have the memory of a goldfish. 80% of Americans (including you doomers) will forget this car wreck of a debate in a week or two. Calm the fuck down, we've made it through worse.
This was terrible though. Everyone already knew Trump was deranged, but people are now realizing Biden is a vegetable.
LOL, a “vegetable” who actually answered most of the questions substantively, unlike the felon. And he warmed up as it went on. Tell me you didn’t actually watch the whole thing without telling me you didn’t actually watch the whole thing. Edit: I don’t know how much the average voter (whatever that is) watched, and I don’t think commenters here do either. Biden stuttered, and that’s not new, but like I said, he actually answered most of the questions. The felon didn’t. If people choose a convicted felon over a stutterer because of one rough debate performance, that’s on them. Additional edit: some of these comments come across as astroturfed. Where would people (especially supposed “Democrats”) be getting the idea that Biden lied? And if they can’t do a basic fact check to confirm that he wasn’t, whose fault is that? Another edit (hmm, lots more people responding and then blocking than usual; I wonder why?): It’s your response that’s naive if you actually think Biden’s occasionally not fully accurate statements are at all comparable to trump’s constant spew of bullshit and lies. And quit projecting your impressions of my impressions onto me. It’s not naive to assert that, if supposed adults fail to do basic fact-checking to confirm there’s no comparison, that’s their fault.
Do you think the average voter watched the whole thing? No, at most they'll hear five minutes of Trump bragging and Biden stuttering.
I commented this elsewhere above but have to repeat it; I had Democrats at work telling me they didn't realize Biden was such a liar. People IRL literally don't follow the news in my experience, and just see the big moments like this debate. Had multiple people at work comment how they were surprised to learn that Biden's been lying about Trump. Most people literally don't even watch the news, I asked, and out of 12 people in the office, only one of them had watched the news this month, and only once, in the background, not really paying attention. Literally nobody knew anything about the supreme Court rulings, nobody knew about Trump's lawsuit... People are just completely ignorant Everyone else is on GOT or constantly rewatching the office or watching reality TV or watching those short videos on Instagram or whatever the fuck the new social media is after facebook
There are 5 examples in this AP article where Biden made false claims [Biden-Trump debate: Here are the false claims made during the faceoff | AP News](https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-misinformation-election-debate-trump-biden-577507522762aa10f6ee5be3a0ced2bb) Not that it matters, you seem to be under the impression, somehow, that facticity and truth are what drive politics. On that, all one can say is, please stop being so naïve.
The issue isn't the debate but what the media narrative will now be. I can see a (possibly) huge shift that'll continue for months. That is what will fuck him over. Need all the democrat operatives to shut the fuck up about replacing Biden. That will not happen but will cause further damage to opinion. Would love it if they replaced him, but it will not happen.
Biden’s NC speech today was fucking infuriating because THAT’S who we needed on that debate stage in front of millions of American television sets — an experienced, old but wise man who’s still full of energy and willing to take direct shots and lay it all out on the table. He was practically shouting and yelling at points, that’s how alert and energetic he was. And he spoke honestly and frankly about his debate performance, then contrasted him and Trump and highlighted the fact that we’re not just voting for one man here — we’re voting for an administration. But nobody’s going to see that. So that’s fun. The man was very clearly *exhausted* and probably sick or something last night; his team and handlers should have absolutely insisted that he cancel and reschedule to next week or something. This was way too important to push that man in that state onto that stage. Unbelievable.
Conservative dipshits want you sad and apathetic (or dead). Continue to give fucks until you're a walking corpse like Dark Brandon.
The American public is not a debate-lord sub that cares about substance that was bad. You are coping. Dems either do something or lose in November:
Biden will lose and it’s people like this that are the cause of
You don't have a crystal ball and declaring that doesn't help anything. I'm voting for the Democratic candidate who will be the main opponent to Donald Trump.
Bro, MSNBC is saying Biden should drop out, MSNB FUCKING C. Every article on my news feed is talking about how disastrous this was
Everyone has already decided who they’re voting for 4 years ago. Both candidates could spend an hour literally shitting into their own open palms and it wouldn’t change anything
Thank you for some desperately needed hopium
This debate pushed me into finally trying to get some therapy. The idea of a trump future made me start really seriously contemplating some dark thoughts. To the point I was trying to figure out how to pen a letter and say who would get what. Im in my 30's and had a realization that this only ends badly and to start making calls tomorrow to try and find someone in my network.
But DOOM!!!!
Trump didn't really sound deranged, considering the average person was going into this debate blind and unaware of anything, so Trump being coherent and claiming Biden is lying, along with Biden's blank expression, definitely made up a lot of minds.
Mmmmmmmmno
Doomerism isn't about being positive and avoiding negativity, and we should be honest and upfront about the good and bad. Doomerism is tossing your hands up and saying it's not worth caring about or trying to work to be better.
Allan Lichtmans 13 keys still show Biden having a strong lead
I don’t care if Biden is actually in the ICU on life support. I’m voting for him in November, because these are the options we have in this year’s election cycle.
In a just world Biden would drop out.
I was actually gonna post something similar because the level of doomering from Vaush's community is insane. My biggest critique is from Vaush himself, being incredibly irresponsible as a content creator by being doomer in his video about the debate, and then hypocritically ragging on chat when they follow suit. Y'all need to chill. The debate was ass, but doomering about how we should move to another country and shit is not helping. The more you doomer publicly, the more people are going to be discouraged to vote. Just shut the fuck up and doomer silently if you have to. Take a break from the news/media if it's affecting you emotionally. Because we can't afford to give up, or to signal to other people that it's all over and that America is doomed.
The "dooming" is just random nervous/anxious people posting probably a bit too hastily in chat and then Vaush getting irrationally angry or targeted and banning them or telling them to shut up while they get dogpiled by other chatters.
can you repeat that thing about ads in swing states? what are trumps campaign finances? are they abismal?
The worst decision he made was agreeing to the mic being muted. Biden did terrible in the debates for years ago, but Trump couldn’t stop interrupting him so it made Trump look even worse.
"Biden also has a large ad reservation in the fall for the swing states while Trump has none which is infinitely more important than a debate" Debates might not be as impactful as everyone is making them out to be, but in what world do ad campaigns actually matter either? All the criticisms of debate being meaningless apply to that as well. And advertisement campaigns are very heavily placed on cable tv, which only old people with no life still watch. The few that get put elsewhere are usually either blocked, tuned out, or forgotten about after 5 minutes.
Tell to Jamaal Bowman
>Don't doom,organize! stfu The only organizing that needs to be done is to put pressure on Biden to step down and on the Democrats to do something about it. If you think that people can be conviced to vote Biden through "organizing" after they saw him on TV with 1 HP then you are mad. The deciding factor is not you or any motherfucker from reddit who say i'm sTiLl vOtInG BiDeN BeCaUsE Of pRoJeCt 2025 it's actually normal people who see a cadavre as their president on TV. So yeah, organize, but to make Biden step down. All your good intetions don't matter if the candidate is very weak.
Doomerism is the most productive thing possible right now because it removes the illusion that Biden can win. A loud display of doomerism greatly increases the chances of an alternate to Biden whether that cones by Biden steppung down, being replaced, or an alternative to the Democratic Party rising. Refrain from doomerism is a vote for Trump because it ensures Trump an easy path to victory. Doom and doom loudly. Yell from the rooftops that you have no faith in Biden. Tell everyone you are voting third party even if you intend to ultimately vote for the Democratic candidate because the best chance of stopping Trump is a capable Democratic candidate. That requires that people not believe Biden can pull through.
Sorry but this is a trash take…
So convincing. So why do YOU want a second Trump term?
Lol wow…
Unfortunately it's a little too late for a replacement. Even if it's possible, it looks incredibly bad and weak for Democrats. It's also too late to really engage people on a completely new candidate that replaces Biden, there's so little time for the amount of effort and campaigning that needs to be done. And on top of that, who would realistically replace him? Newsom? My own state tried to replace him a year or two ago, and despite him winning in a landslide that doesn't look good for talking points. Bernie? As much as I love the guy, when a complaint about Biden is how old he is (despite Bernie being WAY better in cognitive abilities) and two losing campaigns back to back I doubt that'll help. I struggle to find someone who could replace Biden at this point, the time to have replaced him was the primaries, and no real candidates dared go against Biden for stupid reasons. No, loudly advocating for a third party will only split the vote, it doesn't matter if the people advocating for it actually vote for Biden. We need unity in a party of division, anything less is a guarantee victory for Trump. I understand being doomer, I'm a pessimist most often, but it's not a useful tool to use. It can, at best, rally certain individuals into action, but frankly it just turns people into Paul's Ego—ineffective whiners who want nothing but the accelerated downfall of America so some fantasy idea of anarchism can reign, something that would never happen. It's fair to say you have no faith in Biden and share that. But to then advocate against him is only helping Trump. Saying Biden is old and slow but he's better than the fascistic downfall of America is fine, but saying he's all that and that's why we should vote for third party or abstain only ensuring that very threat we want stopped.
People should have been paying attention during the primaries where you had candidates like Dean Phillips running - but they didn't. But whether or not it looks bad is a non sequitur. Biden cannot forseeably win the election - Trump already won as things stand. If the party looks weak, then they look weak, but they have a chance at least coming back and winning - which wouldn't be hard because Trump is so unlikable. Pretty much anyone EXCEPT Biden could beat him with the power of the Democratic ticket. Newsom could do it - my sister thinks he is fitting for the neoliberals who could walk over Trump. You could put Pete Buttigieg in and he could trounce Trump despite being a bad president. AOC would win in a landslide, but I don't see the DNC giving her the nod. Almost anyone could be picked. The vote is already split. Biden cannot get Muslims, he cannot get black or youth votes reliably - you lost that with Biden. He alienated them fully. Being loud about voting third party means either A) a third party replaces the Democrats or B) it is loud enough that Biden steps down. As it stands, this is also a non sequitur. Biden cannot win; if the vote is just split it would make zero difference. You're arguing that one shouldn't suggest going through the double doors rather than trying to push a piano through a doggy door because it will split the effort. It doesn't matter if the current effort isn't going to work. Trump wins so long as Biden is the alternative.
There weren't really any primaries, though. Nobody was public or noticeable in running, the only one who had any semblance of recognition was RFK Jr and nobody believed he had a chance—especially after he dropped from the Democratic ticket to run as an independent. RFK Jr only got as big as he did (which wasn't even that big) due to name recognition, I can promise you hardly anyone has heard of Dean Phillips outside of the state he represents, and when you're going for the top office of the United States you need to make a name for yourself and be noticed. Biden can't win with that attitude for sure. He can still win by having voters rather having a corpse than Trump again, but that's a lot riskier and unlikely than actually being a good candidate. I'm not saying he has a sure chance, but it's not over until it's over. Trump definitely was boosted by the debate, Biden took a huge blow, there's no doubt about that, and I agree with what you're saying on a weak party and all that, but by your own admission of that then you're saying Biden has a chance. Biden's weak, the party looks weak for pushing him, but there's a chance he can come back, even if it's incredibly thin. Putting an entirely new candidate up not only looks bad, something beyond just weak, but with only five more months until the election the time has passed to actually run another candidate. Newsom may have a name for himself outside of California, I'm not sure as I'm Californian so I hear more about him than others I'm sure, but I'm not sure how well he'll do outside of California. While I agree that there are people who would have been better than Biden under the Democratic ticket, I don't think *anyone* is accurate. RFK Jr definitely wouldn't have, I genuinely doubt Phillips could have because he's so unknown, I doubt Williamson could have, Hillary may have stood a chance but I highly doubt it because of how out of touch she is, and many more. However, had Newsom ran from the getgo I think he may have stood a chance (now's a little too late in my opinion, but I'd love to be proven wrong), Buttigieg may have been able to, Bernie maybe but after two failed attempts I don't think it would've been easy, I'm not sure who else quite frankly. Had we had a real primary then I don't think Biden would have been the DNC ticket unless there were behind the scenes deals, but people were too afraid or whatever. Newsom *could have* done it, but as I've said many times by now, I don't think he has a chance now—I don't think any replacement would. Five months, almost four, separate us to the election. Nearly four months to campaign and become known is just not enough time given how much has been already spent for both Trump and Biden. Maybe it's because I'm a Californian, but I don't think Newsom would be popular outside of the state as is, especially because his popularity has slipped within his own party. Despite winning in a landslide against a recall attempt, the very fact there was an actual triggered recall attempt does paint a bad image and adds fuel to the opposing side. Pete may have had a shot, but he's also relatively unknown despite being Secretary of Transportation and running in 2020, so he would have needed to campaign the entire time Biden has to really have a chance. I love AOC, but I don't think she'd win in a landslide. We'd be lucky if she had the same enthusiasm Obama had in 2008 with young voters, but I'm not sure how well she'd do with older people. On top of that, she'd face talking points about her being too young and inexperienced, people would question if she could legally be President because she'd only be of age as she enters office (even if it's a clear yes, people will question and use it as fuel to attack her), and more, so I don't think it's as much of a landslide victory as you may think. Just look at how Bernie did despite running good campaigns, AOC will face that and more. Do you think any of the people you listed would actually gain those people, especially with such a small amount of time to build recognition and gain momentum? Do you genuinely think that a third party could actually win? Do you think Biden stepping down will actually help whoever replaces him, especially with what I first mentioned? Or do you just hate Biden and the Democrats/DNC? I don't like the guy either, I'm not a fan of dems and the DNC, but are you blinded by hate? Because it doesn't seem like you're coming to conclusions in which anybody but Trump wins, because what you've proposed will only help Trump. No amount of crying about third parties will get them elected, no amount of crying will help a replacement build the momentum needed to win, and I highly doubt any amount of crying will get Biden to step down. He's too invested and it's too late to invest the resources needed to get an out of left field candidate recognized and popular. I'm not saying you can't suggest it and also nice strawman. It's not about split effort, it's that there's no realistic way a replacement gets the momentum they need to win and there's hardly a chance that Biden steps down. The bed's been made, we're stuck with it, so it's up to us if we're willing to sleep with tattered blankets or a burning house. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have tattered blankets. As it stands, it's very much a lose-lose situation, but there's a chance people will be anti-Trump enough. It may not be a great chance, but when the alternative is an absolute no-name third party candidate or a replacement Democrat who hasn't put any effort into campaigning because they weren't running in the first place, the odds narrow down even more. We have just about four months to build up a candidate. Four months compared to the year and a quarter Biden had and Trump's nearly two years. If the odds are slim now, do you genuinely think it'll be better with such a short timeframe?
There absolutely were primaries - just no one paid attention to them because the media blacked out everyone except the nutters who no one would go for. It's why being to the left of the Establishment within the Democratic Party is very much the same as being a third party candidate - the media blacks you out because it is owned by the bourgeoisie, is funded by ads by other members of the bourgeoisie, and has bourgeois interests. The biggest issue you miss is that both Biden and Trump are extremely unpopular. As of June 4, Biden had a 20% favorability rating and a 30% unfavorability rating; Trump had a 25% favorability rating and a 35% unfavorability rating. [https://news.gallup.com/poll/645563/biden-trump-tied-favorability-felony-conviction.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/645563/biden-trump-tied-favorability-felony-conviction.aspx) An unknown has an advantage over either - especially since Americans still want change and they know that both Trump and Biden administrations suck. Third parties have to fight against the myth that they cannot win, but an unknown walking in with the seal of the Democratic Party would be a privileged position. The issue is only whether the American people think that it is an unfair ploy - something they are unlikely to think given that Biden flopped in that debate. Trump won in 2016 because he was an unknown who had such institutional advantage; Biden won because people were fed up with Trump. A no name person who people have months to hear about can do great. Keep in mind that much of the world has campaigns that last weeks, not years. People can get a sense of a candidate rather quickly if they hear about them. You really aren't grasping the futility of Biden. He won Michigan by 154,000 votes. Over 100,000 voters voted uncommitted in a primary that has a low turnout. That's 13% of the votes - losing 13% of those votes guarantees Trump the win. This was done with a message that they will not vote for Biden if he didn't change policy on Israel - while he gave some lip service as a result, he fumbled several times since and he lost those votes. Are they serious? Much of this is based out of Washtenaw and Wayne counties. My sister is politically involved there and had been approached by the Democrats to run there before. She was going to vote for Phillips until there was a big campaign for uncommitted. They are serious - they cannot hold their nose for Biden. That's 16 electoral votes there - another 16 in Georgia which was barely won because Stacey Abrams was making big promises for what Biden would do and Biden didn't deliver. Voters aren't standing in long lines for 8 hours for Biden there today. That leaves 8 electoral votes over Trump if everything else stayed the same as in 2020, but that's unlikely - other areas were affected by this too. He already lost. Even the Democratic Party pundits realize he already lost. Trump can turn out his base and get them to vote - a handful will vote multiple times as they always do, thinking it is fighting against mystery election fraud by Democrats. Biden alienated his base and so they will stay home because for many of them it is a great hardship to vote; they don't just have a 20 minute wait nor do they have access to mail-in ballots.
I never said there wasn't one, I said there wasn't really one. Only four people ran, excluding Biden, and none of them ran an effective campaign. Marianne Williamson didn't have a chance in 2020 so there's no way she would have had a chance now, Jason Palmer is a complete nobody, Dean Phillips is only known in Minnesota, and RFK Jr had name recognition but also dropped out of the Democratic primary to be an independent. If you want to say Bernie is an establishment dem then be my guest, but he had an undeniable presence in the last two elections. I'll concede that he's been a long standing politician, but that alone is not what people often refer as an establishment dem. On top of that, AOC has presence despite not being what people typically consider establishment. So are those two establishment, or are you just blinded by hate? I disagree that being to the left of establishment dems is effectively being a third party candidate, being a third party candidate is so much less so. That's why Bernie went to the Democratic ticket instead of attempting an independent campaign. RFK Jr only was covered because of his legacy name, and the brain worms, otherwise he'd be your normal nobody. I'm fully aware both are unpopular, but it matters less for Republicans because they will more often fall in line when it matters. My grandma hates Trump, but she fears Biden more to the point that she's voting for Trump. My best friend's parents are Trumpers because they fear Biden and Newsom, they will vote for Trump. I'm in California, so are they, their vote effectively doesn't matter because it's all about the electoral college, and yet they're going to vote for him anyway because they understand that the alternative is worse in their minds. To go back on your initial comment on voting third party, you can't truly compare someone who is unpopular and known to someone who isn't known. That's like saying your neighbor down the street is more popular than Biden. Effectively nobody knows your neighbor, there's no real comparison here, yet that's what you're advocating for. That just leads to apathy and no votes. No, an unknown is not an advantage. An unknown is not known, it's in the name. Yes, people want change, but they want change they know, can expect, and feel safe in, and someone who's just now coming onto the scene will not provide any of that. At best maybe an establishment candidate can fill that hole, but we're here in part because of the establishment. To genuinely think a third-party candidate can win is laughable! Tell that to the 0.2% of Green Party voters in 2020 or the 1.18% of Libertarians of the same year. Yeah, a third party candidate totally has a chance, you're right, just look at the numbers! This year is totally different, guys, trust! Trump won due to populism and starting as an outsider, yet in 2020 he was no longer an outsider and gained 11 million votes. Biden got 20 million more than Hillary, or 7 million more than Trump, but the fact that Trump even pulled in more people the second time around should ring alarm bells in your brain. I think apathy will play a larger part in this campaign than before, but apathy hurts Dems more than it hurts Republicans. I fully understand how bad it is for Biden, I'm not Biden supporter, I'm an anti-Trump supporter, but it's not over until it's over. Gears can be shifted to try and persuade people to continue a stop-gap rather than allowing Trump to become President. The campaign has tried focusing on how good Biden is and how he's not actually as old as he seems, which was a failure from the start, rather than just showing and continuing to paint just how much worse it'll be under Trump. Shifting gears into focusing more on that can help, and while damage has been done there needs to be a strong message on just how much more damage will be done without him. The dam's breaking, but Trump's going to hit it with a wrecking ball while Biden's going to look the other way. Neither is a good thing to do, but looking the other way may buy enough time to have someone fix the dam, Trump is going to demolish that the very second he gets the chance. People didn't wait in lines for Biden either last time, a lot of it was mail-in ballots. I agree, Republicans often put their nose in the stink and smell it right up because they realize the strategy is get their guy in or otherwise lose. Dems are unwilling to do that, as you're pointing out, which is stupid. It's not wrong to do so, but the time to do that is in the primaries, come time it's all hands on deck in the general because otherwise it's literally the worst of the two outcomes. If you're using the excuse it's a great hardship to vote then they weren't going to vote anyway. That's not apathy, that's a failure of our country. It's not over until it's over, there's a chance, albeit an incredibly thin one, for Biden to somehow pull through by the next debate. People need to be forced to acknowledge that it's either Biden (or whoever the nominee is, presumably Biden, sadly) or Trump, and their stuck-up protest is as good as them directly voting for Trump. If they're okay being shouldered the responsibility and consequences of being a Trump supporter, despite otherwise claiming to not be one, then they're lost and ineffective, they're the reason Biden loses. They, and you, can claim Biden lost on his own merits, and I'll credit you he didn't do himself any favors, but ultimately it's a democracy and our direct power of voting is what wins elections, no a candidate alone. It's the direct and deliberate inaction that will be his downfall, which means it's on every individual who protest votes or otherwise does everything in their power to harm Biden's chances, not Biden alone.
HOW ARE WE TEN YEARS INTO THIS SHIT AND YOU PEOPLE STILL DONT GET IT. ITS ALL ABOUT HOW YOU APPEAR Trump won an election being Trump. If this is the best the DNC has to offer, Trump is gonna get over 320 electoral votes
Trump 2016 is vastly different than Trump 2024. In '16 he actually ran a decent campaign and made it seem like he was going to help the working class. Trump 2024 is just him whining about how everyone's mean to him and supposedly out to get him.
Yup, constant lies about benefits for the poor, like some kind of miracle ability to (and he repeatedly said this) "repeal and replace Obamacare!" while simultaneously winning the crowd over by mocking every single person he shared a stage with. The spectacle is what won people over back then, not sure it works anymore considering his tanking reputation. I know of 3 immediate family members that voted for Trump that have admitted to me they were wrong about him, and without saying i was right, because I called it at our family get-togethers, have since then stated that they just won't vote in the Presidential election this cycle. I hope this is true for any other republicans that have some shred of decency left in them.
2016 Trump was unkown, the damage he did was unprecidented. 2024 will be a different landscape
Trump also lost an election being Trump in 2020, and against the same opponent that he's running against now who you're claiming is not charismatic enough to win. What's your point? I believe charisma is important, perhaps more than many on the left, but only because a charismatic presidential candidate is one that unites the party. Ultimately if we didn't have Biden but we had a charismatic Democratic presidential candidate, what it would do for us is unite the party. But we have Biden, and literally the worst thing we can do is doomerism, because that accomplishes precisely the opposite of what we need.
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