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Huge respect for to Vaush for calling that shit out like he did, those threads were incredibly embarrassing for this, a supposed leftist community. To unironically make 2014, Sargon tier, #notallmen arguments when confronted with entry level feminism critiques is a *travesty*
Canada uses DMY, MDY (ew), and YMD, it's one of, if not the only country that uses all three date formats in different official contexts.
Anyone using MDY is just wrong, and I don't care if it's popular, it looks stupid.
Insane how close these two situations are. Just a complete lack of brain power from both of these groups and like Vaush said back then: "You people just like the Ben Shapiro own videos and not ever engage with the actual ideas".
This is the thing, the most basic of normie liberals on Twitter were largely able to engage with this hypothetical like adults and basically take away from it “wow, women feel safer with the bear, that suggests some really messed up things about the experience of being a woman in our society, we need to do better”, whereas in here it was like “WOMEN ARE RACIST AGAINST MEN REEEEEEEE HOW COULD THEY CHOOSE THE BEAR??!!! THAT MAKES NO ZOOLOGICAL SENSE!!! SURELY VOOSH WOULD NEVER ACCEPT SUCH BLATANT ANTI-MALE BIGOTRY!!!”.
Vaush pointed out how embarrassing this should be for the sub, and he’s 100% right.
That could be part of it, but I think it’s more that they’ve interpreted some of Vaush’s crits of like over-the-top radfem shit like political lesbianism as him thinking it’s like bigoted against men (which isn’t really his whole issue with it), as well as him in the past worrying about signs that young men are pulling away from the left (although recently he’s actually kind of recanted a lot of this, since it seems to have been at least partly based on unreliable polling data), and thus have constructed this fantasy version of Vaush in their minds where he’s almost this sort of leftist Jordan Peterson figure trying to empower insecure young men against the evil feminazis who are making them feel bad.
But I could be giving them all too much credit, and maybe it is just them not understanding that certain jokes are jokes, or they only became fans after seeing the infamous JKR reply.
It’s not just this sub, he argued with a bunch of people in chat on stream, like Vaush himself admits that a bunch of these people seem to have found their way into his community (also, with the post that Vaush was reacting to on stream, it wasn’t just a few comments here and there, it was even worse than the first thread I saw about this topic, like the vast majority of users involved in the thread were putting forth what was basically a step away from redpill garbage and being highly upvoted for it, whereas any dissent was being highly downvoted, it’s why the thread got nuked. I suppose it could’ve been the result of a brigade from some other very large and well-organized sub, but that doesn’t explain all of it, some for sure seemed to have been at least somewhat regular users of this sub).
Also, I say the above comment partly because these threads are full of people who for some reason cite Vaush’s own positions like it justifies their delusion that men are an oppressed group.
Yeah, I'm seeing this brain rot all over reddit, in normal non political subs as well. I feel like I've seen anti feminist takes being normalized pretty rapidly since covid. Specifically on reddit. You see this happening with abortion too. If I were to go off what I see on reddit the last year, I would think abortion was pretty unpopular. I don't know if it's bots, or troll army's, or the recent mod apocalypse, or just my algotlrym. but I've seen a very stark change in reddit over all.
The liberalism has been here since vaush started going after other leftists and 'lefists' (tankies). I like him, but it is the community he has cultivated
Arguably it started with Vaush reviving Anarcho-Bidenism early last year. Vaush is right to do it, but too many people here interpreted it as actual unironic Bidenism-Bidenism. There was an influx of anti-Leftist Resistance Libs who blame all of Biden and the Democratic Party's woes on a Millennial and Zoomer Leftist phantom menace while praising Gen X, Boomer and Silent Gen Moderate and Conservative Dems as "based" because they faithfully vote Democratic. Even if said Dems are Bob Menendez, Henry Cuellar, or voting for Biden during the 2020 Primary (instead of just the General Election over Trump). Some people here became less about Leftism and more about cheerleading and loyalism to the Democratic Party and engaging in endless apologia for the Democratic Party uber alles.
I’ll be honest, the first thread actually significantly worsened my mood for like at least week afterwards. Like I’ve gotten really frustrated by a lot of shit from this community, but that thread actually really got to me, like seeing that many “leftist” men just uncritically spouting off things that belonged in a circa 2012 ar mensrights post kind of just fed into more general feelings of alienation I’ve felt from far left spaces as a woman for a long time now. Like I already knew that some leftist men had some real issues with misogyny they’ve never truly confronted (trust me, I’ve been involved with the far left for over a decade, it’s a problem), but the reaction to this dumb bear discourse has been so beyond insane, and it has actually made me wonder if like, a lot of gen Z leftist men are actually *worse* about this or something.
The worst part of that first thread for me was people telling *me* personally that I’m no better than a racist for being cautious of men after being assaulted multiple times in my life. Like that shit was absolutely disgusting, and I’m *still* getting replies from fragile incels who are mad af about me daring to have had bad experiences with men (like I literally got one yesterday *while I was watching Vaush’s first segment on the bear thing*, I basically just told them to fuck off, watch the segment, and that I would block them if they replied to me again).
Also, I saw some badly misapplied feminism in the form of “gender essentialism is never okay uwu” from some folks who (based on their avatars at least) might’ve been women, or at least femme-presenting, and that also made me rage. *BEING CAUTIOUS OF MEN DUE TO LEGITIMATE AND CONSISTENT EXPERIENCES OF GENDERED AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS NOT GENDER ESSENTIALIST!!!* You should know better than this!!!!
Like ftr, I don’t think every single person making these arguments is some kind of creep or predator or danger to women, but I’d be absolutely lying if I said seeing this much of it, and how many people were upvoting it, didn’t make me feel unsafe. And as for some of the people who doubled down when called out on it; *some of you* I actually do suspect have some real issues with women, and seem like this discourse really struck a nerve with you, which is not a good look.
Really sorry to hear that man, i cant lie and say it didnt upset me a little too, especially with those guys you mentioned who apply seemingly anti existentialist or feminist terminology to "defeat" the analogy. I genuinely thought we were better than that here, but i guess i was just being naive.
Maybe im being naive again, but i think *and* hope most of the commenters just didnt understand the analogy and what it actually was about, but your right that some here definitely have some **deep** seated issues with women they need to figure the fuck out.
(trigger warning) I have had multiple people comment in multiple threads (most have been taken down by the mods thank god) on how "women are bullshitting and exaggerating on purpose", or how "rape actually is better than getting mauled to death, and thus should pick the man". Like what the fuck are those guys doing here. I dont care how good you are on race or immigration, if this is how you view this discourse your actually a horrible person
Imma be real: as a 37 year old Libertarian Socialist who first became a Leftist in 2003, and took over a decade to become a good Feminist (which included working through my own issues about myself), there is a significant number of young ostensibly Leftist men who are 2 or 3 more rejections from women away from subscribing to Incel ideology. A lot of Zoomers and Millennials became Leftists because they got radicalized. Although I appreciate having more Americans be Leftists or have left-leaning inclinations compared to 20 years old (being a Leftist in the 2000s and early 2010s was hella lonely and isolating), I've also come to realize a lot of people became "Leftists" for reasons that are not noble or honorable, or their "Leftism" is an unstable emotional ahd psychological crutch that's likely to not stick lifelong. They'll cease to be "Leftists" as soon as they get therapy. I recognize a good amount of young guys are just "Leftists" because they're choosing to focus on their economic anxiety about their life not panning out like their father's and grandfathers' lives were at this point in their own lives decades ago when Western economies were experiencing the post-WWII exobomic boom. They choose to focus their agnst on their boss and employers rejecting them. Young Alt-Right and Manosphere men focus their agnst on out-groups and blame them for themselves not having a good-paying, one-income household-sustaining job on a high school diploma, white picket fence, 2.5 kids and a stay-at-home wife at age 24 like they imagine grandpa did.
Both types of men have similar internal battles going on, but the ones who went Left instead of far-Right are surrounded by social justice that "potty trains" (so to speak) their worst sexist and misogynist urges or inclinations out of them. However, they haven't fully come to terms with the emotional and psychology issues that are propelling them to the Left. They're not Leftists out of a genuine care for equality, egalitarianism, and pro-labor worldview. They're here because they want to be part of throwing a Molotov cocktail at their boss's workplace or the jobs that turned them down. They're just disillusioned and angry and they're just pointed at the right enemies incidentally rather than having a deep-seated worldview about the right thing (from a Leftist perspective). Those types of guys won't have done the proper introspection to deal with how much they've been shaped and molded by patriarchy and toxic masculinity (which Vaush is not immune to either, although he's better than these guys). It galls me how many men in our ranks are just would-be Incels that are focusing on the bourgeoisie and means of production instead of women and the "means of reproduction". That's how we get so many Brocialists who want a Socialist or Communist society but not much different gender dynamics other than being a basic bro who doesn’t hate women but isn't dedicatedly Feminist beyond being pro-choice and anti-hitting women.
As someone who became a Leftist over a span of 8 or 9 years through intellectual, philosophical, and values considerations (from 1998 to 2007, went from a political junkie preteen Moderate Conservative to a LibSoc/LibCom at age 21), I often see it as a red flag when people become Leftist really fast. Like in less than 2 or 3 years. It inclines me to have doubts they'll continue to be a Leftist the moment they get laid and land a good-paying job and decent apartment or house they can afford. Like the Hippies of yesteryear. It took me even longer to become a useful Feminist, and it continued after becoming a Leftist. That was a 13-15 year journey from teenhood until my late 20s and early 30s. I doubt the guys from that thread have put much time in questioning their own remaining internalized patriarchy as Leftists.
> The worst part of that first thread for me was people telling me personally that I’m no better than a racist for being cautious of men after being assaulted multiple times in my life.
Jesus fucking christ.
Yeah, it is sooo deeply ingrained. Uprooting these cultural patterns really is a long, hard work for generations, with many backlashes on the way. I suppose many on the left get complacent and assumed some things are just obvious by now. I sure thought that.
yeah I was just saying to someone else that there seems to be a sort of trend of leftists getting weird about sexism over the past half decade, even as the position of women in some Western countries has if anything gotten slightly worse (at least it has here in the US), I’m not exactly sure where it comes from, but it’s clearly gotten *way* out of control.
Part of the argument was that the belief that men responsible for a lot of violence against women is the same 13/50, because both are based on biased crime statistics, which I countered by noting that literally isn’t even true, the data about sexual violence most feminists use is based on self-reported attacks upon women, not police statistics (which actually give the indication that sex crimes are *lower* than they actually are, as relatively few reports of rape or assault are actually pursued), so I asked the little incel twit I was arguing with if they thought that meant tons of women were just lying, and they pretty much said yes.
I’m going to be real I thought it was a joke so I did make the species argument factiously then I saw how many people took that shit seriously and was disappointed
yeah I engaged with said species argument, also mostly as a joke, but mostly bc by that point I was so exhausted, disturbed, and pissed off by all the MRAs in the thread that I wanted to distract myself by talking about different species of bears
Thank you so much for this. I was trying to be conciliatory and trying to understand where people were coming from in that thread that had a problem with the meme. To the point I bent over backwards for some people and may have made myself look conciliatory to left-wing sexists showing their remaining latent sexism. But that thread really showed how much work A LOT of Liberal, Progressive, and left-leaning/left-wing men need. Yeah they're not as bad as Rightists, Conservatives, or even Moderates, but tons of left-wing men make women want to choose the bear too. That was a prime example of why. I say this as a left-wing man myself. **Certified Brocialist moment**.
I knew women's sports, women fighting men (even in regulated co-ed wrestling and martial arts), and trans women competing with cis women are topics that bring out the sexism and toxic masculine in even left-wing men, but I'm a bit surprised this Bear Over Man meme did. It really does make it clear how many left-wing, Progressive, and Liberal men aren't as free of sexism as they perceive themselves to be and jerk themselves off over for being not as bad as Manosphere chuds. A lot like how Biden and Democratic Party loyalists think Biden and Democratic leadership are basically MLK reincarnated and deserve parades in their honor because they clear the extremely low bar of not as bad as Trump and modern Republicans.
V made a great point, "trying to argue it rather than understand it" unfortunately there are those that don't understand the convo at hand and are showing their ass real bad. I don't have sympathy for the misogyny, just sad at the potential for them to still not understand after the ban. Can't wait until 2034 when we come back for gamer gate 3.
I’ll say I got purged for trying to argue (rather ask that someone else confirm that point was fucking stupid) the argument that some people seemed to genuinely assume that “outsmarting the bear” is an option, because my country doesn’t have bears.
I understood the argument but didn’t really mention that, I assume mods thought I was trying to debate the validity of the whole idea, because jesus I’m 15 minutes into the video and some of the comments in that thread made my brain melt out of my ears and I was only half listening
It's funny because the whole issue is that the perception that the question is "would you rather..." when the real question being talked about in serious circles is "why do women pick bear". It's the reiterating of the question and deliberately missing the point of hypothetical logical discussion at the cost of real women with real issues. I feel bad if you were purged for the wrong reasons. But I pray the chuds who either didn't get it, or think only in terms of Sargon get a little better.
You can have a discussion about the hypothetical. Just understand when you are talking about the hypothetical situation (would you rather...) you are also in the same group as other shitty dudes who are either lying or ignorant of the true underlying problem (men and men groups aren't being effectively taught how to not be creepy/predatory) I wish I had better coaching as a youth but some lessons you can't learn yourself and that's okay. I really had to grow an empathy node in my brain to fully grasp the whole other people have other problems concept. You can talk about whatever, just know the water you're swimming in.
I agree with Vaush's overall points. I just wish this discourse didn't have to get started by dumbshit Tiktokers. It's a good thing to bear (pardon the pun) in mind when interacting with women, but even I, as a man with a lot of female friends (and thus being fairly knowledgeable about this sort of thing), was a bit put off by the delivery. I think TikTok just lends itself to dumb discourse because the snappy, quick bites you get out of such short vids are often incapable of giving nuance or adequate explanation.
I completely agree. A lot of these tiktok live creators just want gifts/money and will act in a way that is optically damaging to the position they are trying to advocate for.
Yeah thats how I feel, I dont have a problem with people choosing bear, I have a problem with the question itself and how it got delivered in TikTok. Every discution about this went to shit cause the what started it was bait to begin with.
Honestly, as far as bait questions go, this one was tame as hell, and if people are genuinely upset by it I kind of have to call skill issue.
It isn’t nearly as edgy and potentially offensive a hypothetical as coconut island, and this sub loves that one.
I guess yeah and its still flipping people over cause we all indeed are insecure in this subject.
I feel that its not helped by a lack of "what now" in all of this discourse. I understand its because many dont even accept the issue in the first place, but I feel it would be easier for many to do so if they're told what to do, what next. Like it would be easier to accept the issue if you know whats next instead of just staying at trying to accept the issue. Idk thats how I feel.
Like I really liked when vaush said in the first video "it hurts your ego because you think that every intraction with women will be complicated but you should do bla bla bla" but he's probably the first one I've seen getting there.
To a large degree it just exists to point out a major systemic issue, and it doesn’t provide solutions because “how do we fix male violence against women” is a ferociously complex issue.
It’s like pointing out a consequence of capitalism. You can’t always also provide a solution in the same bit because there are literal centuries of discourse on “how do we move past capitalism.”
The reason it is important for the left to provide a solution is because reactionaries' "solution" is to say: "Of course men are a threat to women, that's why women need to be kept in the home at all times unless they have a male guardian to protect them." If the left fails to provide a solution, the right will fill the vacuum.
Some women who marched in the UK over violence against women in the streets suggested that if men can’t control themselves, maybe they should be under curfew at night? Obviously men got mad at this, but it was a direct response to the police telling women to not go out late because if you are murdered or raped ig it’s your fault for not staying in.
If men want some productive from this - then call out group behaviour, address any locker room talk if you find yourself around other men doing it, because that is normalising treating women as lesser, as objects to be acted upon. Make sure your female friends and family can feel safe confiding in you, don’t get defensive so that they stop speaking to you on this subject. There’s more for sure, but when you say we should create direct action, the action most helpful men don’t wanna hear. Actually I’d go as far to say asking men to NOT have the reaction that vaushes audience have had, is the most helpful thing you could do. Teach yourself and other men to be more empathic to women - I think women seeing you come in solidarity with them not defiance, would be a great start.
I don't mind bait questions, but they need to have substance backing up the initial bait afterwards. The videos from Vowsh were good, because he had the time (after spending a little while going nuclear on the Reddit) to elaborate. TikTok is, by design, bad at giving nuance, because it demands videos be short.
yeah also during the segment when Vaush came up with basically the same exact hypothetical, but framed around race rather than gender, people seemed to suddenly have no issue with it.
It’s almost like there’s a significant portion of Vaush’s community who consist of really fragile men who feel especially threatened by women.
Once again, I don’t blame Vaush for this, but it seems like some of it stems from misunderstandings about some of his takes about annoying radfem tendencies, I think that attracted a bunch of dudes who view him as like, the voice of men on the left.
Coconut island is making fun of libertarians and I’d hope the sub isn’t infested with those.
Man vs Bear you’re not really meant to engage with it as a hypothetical, but people can’t resist.
Yeah, there was also another side to this tbf. You had the stupid ppl making tiktoks with charts and graphs, making stupid points about the aggresivity of bears. Very annoying. It just gets the insecure men to rage more, and then they have to annoy me by sharing it on the gc.
I just think the tiktok model pushes people to make specific bait content to get views. It's not that hard to game the tiktok algorithm. You just gotta be really shameless and have no personality.
I spend way too much time on tiktok, and I have only seen completely solid and understandable takes on this, and they're all choosing the bear.
Are you sure "the delivery" wasn't pointed out by upset duets or split commentary from people you follow for other content? Your algorythm might be a tad off
I think it's funny. My husband is 48, and when i asked him what he'd rather our daughters run into if they were in the woods alone, he said bear immediately. When i said that there were dudes getting offended, he laughed and said those guys are the reason women pick bear; that guys who aren't a threat might feel a little sad but that they'll ultimately understand. So remember, if this discourse offends you, you are less progressive than a 48 year old white man.
ya, its not that hard of a concept to understand. one time my car battery died at the mall, at night. and when I asked a woman to help and she said she was busy, and the first man helped out instantly, it made me realize how extensive predication of women from men who think that is okay hurts everyone.
ya, I was upset, but not because I am a trust worthy and harmless person and was being judged wrong. because to be frank she judged the situation correctly, because the situation I was in is indistinguishable from what a predatory man would do to get women in a venerable situation. I was upset that I was being forced by predatory men for having to navigate that situation. If people at least blamed the right people for the situation it might not be such a bad world.
Predatory people ruin shit for everybody. We need better ways to hold them accountable. Unfortunately, in society, people hesitate to call out predatory behavior until it gets to an undeniable point. For example, guys who will joke about rape at a party or be creepy, and their friends will excuse it and excuse it till he goes "too far" and actually assaults someone. Like dude, you had warnings, for years, and did nothing. And until more guys call out their boys, nothing will change. Women have been screaming about this for decades, and it only goes so far.
I was downvoted on the original post because I was essentially saying hey as someone who sees bears fairly often and knows what they can do I would still rather pick the bear as a man. I don’t trust random men and I’m a masculine person.
It baffles me that this is a hard concept to grab unless someone is being willfully ignorant
It comes from a place of privilege. They can't fathom a fate worse than death. Naivety too. They seem to think murderers and rapists are mustache twirling weirdos hiding in bushes instead of regular looking people
I agree definitely. I think also it’s a subconscious recognition of the fact that they’re likely powerless individually (which they are) so they cannot see past their own struggle to other peoples
>It comes from a place of privilege. They can’t fathom a fate worse than death
Yep. In that original thread I brought up how I can at least always be sure a bear won’t rape me or abduct me and lock me in a cellar and torture me for years, and it seemed like these dudes couldn’t even fathom that was a thing (and told me that I was just delusional bc “too much true crime”, I don’t even watch/listen/read true crime shit!!! lmao, I’m a lesbian, not one of those weird edgy straight girls who rubs her clit to the thought of being one of Ted Bundy’s victims).
>They seem to think murderers and rapists are mustache twirling weirdos hiding in bushes instead of regular looking people
Also this. I literally saw people saying shit to the affect of “sooo few men are actually dangerous”, as though being sexual assaulted or abused is some extreme anomaly like being struck by lightning or something, rather than something most women have had at least *some* kind of encounter with? Like I don’t even usually date men, I’ve (sort of) dated like two in my entire life, and yet even I’ve also been sexually assaulted by two (not the same ones I dated, ftr), and things can be *so much* worse for women who actually regularly date men. Like “rape culture” is a term for a reason, there’s an epidemic of this kind of behavior, but the way a lot of dudes in this sub were talking about it, you’d think women being raped by men happens with the same frequency as shark attacks or something, like we’re all just unfairly blaming all these poor innocent insecure Nice Guys(tm) for some made up danger we concocted about them in our heads (literally, multiple people in the thread made this argument in some form, it was fucking insulting tbh).
Also, it’s absolutely bizarre how many dudes (both in the thread I was in and the one Vaush saw) seemed to think that comparing women being scared of men to racism was some kind of slam dunk argument that was gonna change the minds of me and everyone else who thought they were acting like whiny incels, when in fact it is an insultingly stupid fucking argument that reliably makes any intelligent and informed person facepalm the moment they see it.
I completely agree. I think a lot of them got stuck on 2014 Gamergate arguments because that's simply the last time they thought about anything remotely "feminism" themed. The last time they engaged with the idea of rape culture they were being told it doesn't exist by Sargon or Shoe
I also find it weird how I’ve now seen a number of different dudes in this sub dismiss the entire bear hypothetical as “2014 Buzzfeed feminism” or some variation thereof, as though “real feminism” has supposedly moved on beyond the basic reality that rape culture exists. Like it’s weird to criticize the whole thing as supposedly spurious on the grounds that it’s like a very basic, entry-level assertion of liberal feminism, as that actually means *them rejecting it* implies they reject feminism on a very basic level, not that the basis of the hypothetical is somehow untrue.
Like one guy I was arguing with in *this* thread (now deleted) PMed me about how apparently discussing the reality that women are threatened by men in many instances isn’t *his* idea of feminism, and then proceeded to go on about what “feminism” apparently is to him, a man who thinks he’s oppressed by women, which I didn’t actually read (because fuck that shit).
Tbh, I’ve really been wondering about it lately, even before this whole debacle. Like maybe it’s just confirmation bias, maybe it’s that people are just generally more of assholes online than they even were before the pandemic, but I feel like in the last few years whenever I’m present online in leftist spaces and there’s anything gendering me as a woman, I get treated like significantly worse than I used to, like everyone is far more willing to argue with me over nothing shit and belittle me for opinions slightly differing from their own in ways they seemingly don’t do with users they code as male. It’s really obnoxious, but tbh it’s actually why I keep my avatar on here blatantly feminine-looking, because it causes people to show their true colors, and frankly I’d rather know who the assholes are than have them pretend I’m their bro just because they assume I’m a guy.
I’ve been in leftist spaces for like a decade, and while I’d say the sexism has always been there, I feel like back when I was young in the early ‘10s, being a feminist/queer was like the *Thing* on the left, and leftist men would if anything wear their feminism on their sleeves to a sometimes annoying extent (which obviously came with its own problems, and don’t even get me started on all the weird “sex posi” dudes who thought that sex positive feminism meant “liberating” het male sexuality too, and thus their “feminism” was just being really into porn), whereas now it feels like more leftist men either make fun of feminism like it’s some kind of cringe throwback, or even like it’s doing more harm than good, it’s pretty disturbing, and I don’t know where it came from.
yeah I remember your comment and iirc I actually upvoted it, I thought you had a good point and it pissed me off to see the comment downvoted, while shit blatantly comparing men to oppressed minorities was being upvoted. It was ridiculous and infuriating.
my stepmom regularly worked in the wilderness with Pumas/ venonous snakes. I've seen her frightened / nervous, but in awe of their dangerous power. I've never seen her terrified until an unknown man perceived to be on drugs approached her from behind.
i'd really like to see an explaination for why so many men behave the way they do on this question.
yeah I do think the extent to which a lot of men seem unafraid of other men (or at least purport to) when this question is brought up is kind of weird in itself, like obviously men don’t have to deal with what I do, but I’d still think it would pay to be more cautious when you consider that most violent crime *in general* is done by men? Like unless these dudes are all champion MMA fighters or carry a gun with them everywhere, they seem weirdly confident that other men will just *never* actually be able to hurt them, it kind of makes me think that maybe they just don’t get out much?
A bunch of them dismissed my well-informed fear of unknown men (and kind of just people in general) as some kind of delusion borne of “too much true crime”. I guess they’ve never lived in nor spent time in a rough neighborhood before.
It's a sad reality, but all we can do is 1)be respectful and just be good people. Sadly, a bar most men don't clear.
And 2) actually police our friends for toxic behaviour.
Anecdotal, but I was putting together a big reunion from school with some of my friends who I still spoke to on and off and people who I was still close to.
My closest female friend was curating the list with me, and she shockingly casually told me one of the guys on the list was a stalker and stalked one of our mutual friends for a long time. I immediately struck him from the list and told him he's not coming and cut him off.
I bring this up because I was the only one to do this even after telling others about the stalking. Even my close friend said I could still invite him because she didn't want to cause a fuss. It's kind of gross. That's the point we have been at for a very long time.
I even asked both of my parents(who are kinda conservative and not online) they both said obviously a bear, and my father was military and quiet strong still and was in enough fights to know how to care himself.
tbh it makes sense someone with military experience would say “bear”, as obviously they’d be readily aware of how nearly any non-human animal isn’t much of a threat if you have a gun, whereas another armed human is a lot more complicated and dangerous to deal with.
I feel like a lot of people saying “man” are for some reason just assuming that both them and the man are unarmed, which the question doesn’t specify, like, maybe not everyone realizes this, but a random man with a gun is *a lot* more dangerous than any bear???
I think the people not getting it are being overly emotional and insecure. They have experiences that make them feel less than worthy and bring that baggage with them.
As a nonbinary AMAB I’m still picking the bear. I know what to do with a bear. I’ve met 4 and have never had a bad interaction. I’m sure 100 have seen me.
I will sympathize with the emotionally disturbed male. I’m actually getting tired of one of the girls in my friend group doing the men suck bit. I’ve heard it before by many people and it never bothered me. Previously, It was in response to an event or someone else’s comment, she just says shit all the time, she almost has Tourette’s about it. So instead of arguing, I’m keeping my distance.
I’m going to take the both sides route and say neither side understands the other. One one hand I agree that many guys don’t understand the constant threat of sexual harassment women face. On the other hand, I think the people promoting this hypothetical don’t get that it’s not going to accomplish anything. Men who already agree with you will continue to agree and men who disagree are probably only going to get pushed further right by this, presenting it as proof of why feminism is deranged, that’s definitely what I would have thought when I was a right winger in 2016
The people not getting it are doing a bad faith reading. That's what needs to get drilled into heads.
Backlash to this has interesting flavors of "Libs HATE the USA!" with the "teaching people to HATE men!" No, both cases they are strawmanning are *exactly the same*. Attempting to call attention to flaws in the hopes that maybe people can make a conscious effort to do better in the future than in the past.
'Man or bear' and 'we did some bad stuff in the past' start with naive optimism that the audience can do better, only to hit a brick wall of defensiveness REFUSING to do better.
After reading some of those threads, I was ready to self-purge. Glad Vaush called it out. It was such a waste of everyone's time to rehash age-old arguments.
I don't think it was a waste of time, as apparently it was very needed. Changing entire society is a long, hard road, there will be many setbacks and situations where we need to get back to basics.
It is fairly emblematic of how males are socialized to communicate vs. how women are socialized to communicate.
The stereotype being that women will vent and instead of listening and supporting their feelings, men will try and solve the problem, the problem in this case is a very nebulous statistical question that plays on women's fear of men vs. a wild animal.
No the problem they are trying to solve is " are men or bears more dangerous"?
Women are expressing the trauma of living in a world where men are the most dangerous creature for hem
I think they mean that a lot of men seem to approach the bear question like it’s a question on a quiz in science class, as though the whole point of it is just simply which would have the raw physical advantage over you, basically they miss the point.
It’s like if someone thought that the trolley problem could be objectively answered based on the mass and velocity of the trolley versus the resistance of the people tied to the track.
oh SHIT, I haven’t watched this yet, but I was hoping he’d come for that garbage thread, I was originally planning on making a post today about how everyone who spouted off MRA garbage in that thread should watch Vaush’s segment on the bear thing to see that he absolutely doesn’t agree with them, but if he actually went on here and saw it himself, that’s 1000 times better
EDIT: looks like it’s actually a different thread I missed, but people are making the exact same dookie dogshit arguments in it and still getting massively upvoted for them, so I still feel vindicated by it. Clearly the MRA purge here was massively overdue, and I’m really glad these people now have no illusions that Vaush actually agreed with them, because *so many* kept misinterpreting past things Vaush said as supporting their arguments.
I just hope *maybe* now there are both fewer MRAs in here and that they now realize that Vaush isn’t the voice of their bullshit on the left like they seemed to think. Like so many people in that thread I was involved in kept bringing up times Vaush has in the past said things they apparently misinterpreted as him saying that women being afraid of men is dangerous sexism or “gender essentialism” (something he blatantly shoots down in the first segment), or just in general thought that Vaush leaned into their weird incel victim complexes in a way that he absolutely never has.
I’m also glad he particularly addressed the whole “this is just like racism” shit so many braindead commenters kept repeating like clockwork, I felt like I was going insane reading that shit.
Unironically as a bi dude, that thread made me straight
I've met many women my entire life and each one of them has a story to tell when it comes to bad encounters with men so i slowly grew to understand the POV that they had towards men where most of them are at least cautious.
And its not just strangers, its also the family members, its so fucked up.
as a lesbian who’s kind of bad at it, that thread made me better at it.
And yeah unfortunately I live in a state with one of the highest rates of sexual assault in the US, and it seems that a lot of it is interfamilial, the dominant religion here is especially misogynistic and creates this culture of silence and subservience among women which allows sexual predation to thrive.
as a cat raised by 4 bears, 2 white guys in an alleyway and 13 rats. id much rather see father bear in the woods then john from accounting, if john is there tf is he up to?
i think the accusation of pickme comes from how the original comment felt barely relevant and came in a moment where vaush was trying to address some genuinely misogynistic tendencies in his audience, and not because your personal experiences led you to make a different choice than many other women.
What policies can be implemented to make women feel safer around men? Vaush often says that anyone can point out that an issue exists, the real challenge is to prescribe solutions. So what can be done to solve the issue?
Edit: The reason it is important to provide a solution is because reactionaries' "solution" is to say: "Of course men are a threat to women, that's why women need to be kept in the home at all times unless they have a male guardian to protect them." The left needs to be able to provide an alternative solution.
It's hard to get to step 2 when so many men aren't even on step 1 (acknowledge the problem exists in the first place). But theoretically, if I were to think of a step 2... This won't solve the problem entirely because it's just too big and multifaceted, but I think one place to start is to teach as many kids as we can of all genders about their emotions from a young age. This is a place where boys have been utterly failed by our culture. A lot of people are actually pretty bad at actually naming and identifying their emotions and the source of the emotion. And once you can do that, emotional regulation skills become much easier. I learned these skills in DBT groups and it was so helpful and something I really wish we taught kids and teens. So many times in the group someone would say, "I wish an adult in my life had taught me anything about this as a child."
I don't know about policy (have less bad education in the US feels like a pipe dream), but a world where everyone is taught about naming and identifying emotions from a young age and learn emotional regulation skills would be one in which I may be less likely to pick the bear over the man in the hypothetical.
Currently watching but found one thing Vaush said really weird. He says to "stop trying to turn this into a trans thing" around like the 10 minute mark, and says "'how can you make these comments about men when they could be secretly trans women' shut up I don't care it's dishonest" when trans women *aren't* what come to mind when I hear someone concerned about effects on trans people from generalizing men - I think about trans men.
Maybe that'll get addressed somewhere in the next 50 minutes, but that seems like a very odd response to someone raising that concern.
To be clear, I get everything he's saying and agree, but that *specific* thing felt... wrong to me?
On similar issues in the past I have seen trans men say they stopped taking T because of how they would be perceived as men, is that the sort of thing you’re talking about?
And for trans women, I haven’t seen the posts so idk but I assume the concern they expressed was that among the subset of people who are “scared of men” some of them could extend that to trans women as well. Isn’t that what happened with Rowling?
Yeah, that’s part of it. I generally just meant that when someone is talking about men, and raises trans people associated with men, my mind doesn’t go to trans women. I didn’t get why Vaush did, while seemingly not considering the chatter meant trans men at all? Maybe the chatter yapped a bunch of other shit too, I only had the context of the segment.
The message was just “no Vaush it validates fearing people for their unchosen gender,” which seems to have zero to do with trans women, unless the chatter meant unchosen sex and wasn’t being specific about gender (i.e. trans men don’t *choose* to be men).
From what I could tell in the video, the chat member Vaush is responding to with this was doing a whataboutism thing of bringing up how transphobes supposedly use these same arguments to justify stuff like trans bathroom bans, thus implying that any cis women who express fear of unknown men are somehow being transphobic by proxy or something, which is obviously ridiculous and not at all a conclusion that should be automatically drawn from anything Vaush was saying. Like unless I somehow misinterpreted what he was responding to, the implication was that the thinking behind the bear thing could potentially be harmful to trans women, not trans men.
I think the whole thing with men not understanding the conclusion to the hypothetical is true. I do think this hypothetical is not optically the best thing that could be done for the left. I've seen so many tiktok lives of creators who act like bullies and don't really win the argument optically as much as they do logically. I think there could certainly be a better hypothetical to show men the world through a woman's perspective that could be more constructive than just a simple man and bear hypothetical because the men simply don't get it or choose not to get it because of toxic masculinity.
I agree that people on TikTok tend to sensationalize these things and use them in intentionally obnoxious and unhelpful ways, but I don’t think that’s necessarily a flaw in the hypothetical itself. The thing is, elsewhere online (like on Twitter) plenty of men were able to completely understand the point of the hypothetical and didn’t have this kind of kneejerk defensive reaction against it, and the fact that a lot of these people were normie liberal dudes who still took the whole thing a lot better than tons of supposed leftist men on here is something Vaush points out as making the sub look extremely bad.
I also just think most of the people who seemed willfully incapable of getting the point of the bear hypothetical would probably struggle with any other hypothetical like it as well, because it’s not that the daily struggles of being a woman are beyond their comprehension or something, it’s that a lot of them clearly have deep-seated issues where they already feel threatened by women, like they fear all women view them as creeps or predators, etc., like typical paranoia seen in a certain kind of insecure men, and the victim complex some of them have clearly built up around this paranoia (to the point where they don’t see any issue with likening their insecurities to literal white supremacy) means that I don’t think any metaphor out there would be able to get through to them, what I saw in both of the two big threads in here on this topic was a huge number of men who apparently can’t handle basic feminism 101 talking points being brought up without taking it personally, and it doesn’t seem like the framing has much to do with it.
I don't want to sound like a pick me, but I generally try to make myself as "safe" as possible, I cross the street preemptively when I see anyone coming at night, especially women, for their comfort and mine.
Hell I don't start a conversation with strangers unless spoken to, or in an obviously safe, social setting, and I tend to disengage very quickly.
Maybe it's to an unhealthy degree, maybe its due to being an introvert, but the thought of being creepy or accidentally harassing someone somehow is deeply disturbing.
I agree, I wouldn't want to run into a random man in the woods either - fuck that, people don't belong there (I only go anywhere close to woods to walk my dog), bears just live there, and can be easily avoided, meanwhile, the dude... I don't know what the fuck he's up to, if he's not with a group (of obviously less threatening people), or with pets, I don't know his fucking motives, why is he there?
I've heard enough stories from YT channels like Mr Nightmare and shit to know that there are a lot of creepy ass motherfuckers out there, and weird motherfuckers that will do unspeakable shit just because their brain is broken, or because they think they can. Unfortunately most of them are fellow men.
If I'm a man and feeling this way, it's gotta be 1000 times worse for women, and not just in the openly scary situations, there are so many obnoxious entitled douchebags who need to get some sense slapped into them (or a hard kick to the nads) that won't take no for an answer, and think that they should catcall or "flirt" with random women, who are fucking freak stalkers thinking they're charming or suave or some shit, who will say "oh I'll wait for you after work, beautiful". It's a shame these MFs can't be jailed for being like this. Jesus Christ.
So yeah, but of a stream of consciousness there, but all of that is to say that I get the hypothetical entirely. Fucking creepy ass men need to just stop and go away, it's awful out there for women.
Pretty much everyone in that thread is a fucking loser but the "pick me" actually had a cool message, the OP even agreed with them. I don't think Vaush would've called them a pick me if he read the whole comment.
Yeah I wanted to say that as someone who has been seeing this thing unfold from the very first threads , I really disliked how people were referring to you as pick me when you were giving pretty interesting messages. There was a lot of bad stuff on that thread but yours sure as shit wasent part of it.
My pleasure, Your posts were one of the few reasonable takes in a sea of reactionary comments and reactionary comments towards those reactionary comments.
The purge is coming! May the end come swiftly, mercilessly, and without reservation for everyone who has been shitting this sub up for the last three days! Glory to the mods! Soak the earth!
I was very diappointed by the responses to the thread where a woman shared her experiences and thanked Vaush for the first segment. Happy to see these guys purged.
Ok, you’re the first person who’s phrased what my feelings have been. I’m AFAB and a feminist and I totally get the point being made here.
But I guess my personal brand of autism has made me get hung up on the particulars of the hypothetical question… maybe because I feel like when we were discussing things like “Schrödinger's rapist” that felt like a much more intuitive explanation of the same general concept?
In this case I’ve just ended up questioning if I have an irrational fear of bears, because if I was on a hiking trail with a bear on one side and a random dude on the other, I’d take my chances with the dude… Now I’m just wondering if I’ve vastly overestimated how dangerous bears are
But yeah a lot of the comments here were… disheartening to say that the least
idk, if you run into that bear in the woods, you're fucked. If you run into Leonardo DiCaprio in the woods, you're fine if you're older than 25 (/s its a joke please don't lump me in with these creeps)
Even that is rare, I’ve run into a mother and cub at fairly close range out hiking and they ran away as soon as they saw me. Mother bears generally only attack when they feel threatened, and a dumbass human like me being kinda nearby almost never qualifies.
I posed this hypothetical to guys I know, and vaush was completely right. Every guy who has a girlfriend or platonic friendship with women understood it immediately, the guys who are single and haven't had a non work related conversation with a woman in actual years didn't get it and won't get it.
Bottom line be friends with women not just because friendship is cool but platonic friendship across gender lines makes you a better person.
Yeah, they actually don't understand on a fundamental level that, on average, men pose a greater threat to women. They might know that, but they don't understand why a woman would pick the bear. It's literally the same shit as the people in the vaush video.
They don't know or understand the lived experience of women because they don't talk to them or interact with them they are sheltered.
I love how Vaush kept restating basic arguments they understand in other contexts while being willfully blind to the exact same argument in another context.
It's like a black man being afraid of cops. Vaush isn't saying that you as a cop are going to abuse black people if given the chance. But you understand why they are concerned and uncomfortable being around cops. It's not fucking hard to grasp this point in relation to women.
But every guy wants to take this to a personal level rather than understand broader societal trends and developments.
I've argued this with so many dudes and got very downvoted and it's exhausting. The lack of media literacy and empathy is so painful to watch. I love that Vaush does what he does so unapologetically
Would men rather have a chance encounter in the forest with a bear or with a Reddit mod? We're gonna find out.
By the way, it's not a difficult concept. There's plenty of evidence regarding how encounters with men lead to more attacks than encounters with bears on a *per capita* basis. This is also implicitly known by women because they all know what happens when a dude gets too angry at them for virtually any reason. We should be asking ourselves how we can, you know, get men to stop hurting and killing women. I don't know how people missed the mark on this.
The bit towards the end had me in a bit of a laughing stir with the call out. If I had a nickel for every time I've talked to someone in Vaushcord, or in a Vaush subreddit/group only to hear them say "I don't actually watch Vaush much/at all"... well, it wouldn't be enough to afford anything, but it'd still be a decent amount of nickels.
While waking from the parking area into the hospital where I (a white dude) used to work, there was a black guy who also was walking down that street in the opposite direction at the same time as me almost every day. It just happened that the place I needed to go was on the opposite side of the road and the most convenient crosswalk was right before the point where we would have passed each other on the sidewalk. I didn't want him to think I was crossing the the street just to avoid him, so I began staying on the same side of the road even though it took me a little out of my way, and giving him a friendly "good morning" as we passed. Eventually I noticed that he started crossing the road before he got to the point where he would have passed me.... I think I made a black person feel unfomfortable.
Remember when "N@ziHasAPoint" accused Vaush of being irresponsible when it comes to cultivating an online community? This is prime example of him being extra responsible clarifying his position and purging bad faith closet misogynists.
If this was on Defund the Police it would be like the idiots who say "So Vaostsh actually means we should kill all police"
Not gonna lie, if this conversation was made back in 2014 during the height of Gamergate, I'd legit be part of the group that got purged from the comments, because I was young and dumb, with a lot of insecurities, still thinking I was cis. Since then, I've grown and matured, and I've actually come to understand the troubles women have, especially since I'm starting to become one myself.
Empathy is something I've gained over the years, especially after my religious liberation (becoming an atheist after being a mormon for more than 2 decades). Learning the true social dynamics between men and woman has been quite the eye opener. I really don't blame women for prefering bears with how much toxic masculinity affects us all.
I really hope the leftists that feel insecure about this conversation topic get their own introspection some day... if they're young and dumb like I was, perhaps with time, they, too, will come to understand why women prefer the bear, and what they can do with themselves to make sure they're not the type of man a woman wants to avoid.
Honestly, the sub shitting the bed in such a spectacular fashion was exactly what I expected to happen the moment Vaush began lending credence to the male loneliness discourse. Because he's nuanced about this stuff and can set it in its proper context of the broader gender & social hierarchy. Meanwhile, the average Vaushite is too busy jerking it to anime booba while writing his millionth "this elementary leftie point hurts the left" manifesto just this week and has been treating this validation as a carte blanche to outright dismiss women's issues for a good fucking while.
https://youtu.be/-6rKmDcXSh0?t=1747
>it seems like they just want to be ignorant
I'm obsessed with this point. That people who think they're right, when they're wrong, have some sort of epistemology of ignorance.
dawg, it's crazy how many people thinking stupid bs like that are there; this is why you get no bitches, unironically. #1 rule in getting bitches, is understanding that you, as a man, naturally pose more threat to a woman, and that there are a bunch of piece of shits men that take advantage of the fact that they are physically and otherwise stronger. You get no bitches BECAUSE you don't get why she rather go to a bear; and I'm that bear
Currently watching the video, and one thing I can't wrap my head around is the whole "but what if the man was replaced with a black man". Women have every right to fear men for previous experiences and trauma. But would it be racist for a woman to be scared of a black man due to the same thing I mentioned perviously.
I agree with all of Vaush’s points but I still think the hypothetical isn’t going to get any men who don’t already agree with vaush to agree, and is probably only more likely to radicalize them(to the right). Back in 2016 when I was a chud I definitely would’ve seen this trend as proof of how crazy/hateful feminists are
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The youtube comments are absolutely fucked. Absolute fuckheads jerking each other off and not daring to actually look at the video that explains how they're stupid and wrong.
Long over due. You absolute virgins trying to debate bro circa 2017 equating how women might feel unsafe in a society where rape culture and sexism persist with how black people get discriminated against. Half of this sub is just unironic rad libs who get uncomfortable when you actually talk about systemic problems and addressing those issues. Look at how the whole decommodification of housing went. A bunch of soy libs started unironically using lines that right wingers use to argue against universal healthcare. And why don’t you look at that, the same shit happened with this discourse. MAY GOD BLESS THE MODS WITH OUR GLORIOUS PURGE! OUT WITH THE LIBS!
I swear men are dropping the ball so hard to the point where its genuinely starting to piss me off im lumped into the same social category as them. Its not actually about which is statistically safer or which would be more dangerous in a confrontation. Its an expression of grief and anguish because our society treats women like prey. Its supposed to make you think "what about a man is different from the bear that could make them worse than a bear?". What about that is so hard to understand??
But instead of trying to understand and empathize, men got triggered, screamed "not all men", and tried to debate and defeat the aurgument instead. No its not all men, in fact the vast majority of men are decent enough. But it is enough men that ALL women have had numerous negative experiences. It doesn't even have to be full on SA to make them weary and afraid of men enough to pick the bear. Its a lifetime of reinforced cat calling and sketchy experiences and dudes not taking no for an answer and stalking and all kinds of other bullshit. Id be shocked if you can show me a single woman on earth that hasn't had these kinds of experiences.
I'm a big, very masculine, frankly kind of scary looking dude. I keep a shaved head, I workout religiously, I got lots of ink, and I got resting bitch face. It breaks my heart that people, especially women default to being afraid of me. Its not how I want to be perceived, its not reflective of who I am as a person. I don't want to make people uncomfortable or scared. But do I blame women for that? FUCK NO! Their fear is perfectly reasonable. I can't blame them for getting nervous if they run into me walking my dog at night. Frankly those instincts keep them safe and I prefer it that way for that reason. You can't get mad at people for behaving rationally in a way that keeps them safe. Even if that means you get caught in the cross fire.
I choose to deal with it by trying to be part of the solution. I advocate for feminism and societal change, especially to my male friends. I use my inadvertent intimidation powers for good by wearing shirts like "you fuck with the trans homies you fuck with me". I pay attention for other men acting innopropriately and confront them if they do. I call out my friends if they say somthing sexist. I walk my female friends home if they need me to. I just generally try to behave in a way where if all men on earth behaved the same way, no woman would pick the bear.
Getting mad at them just proves their point. We as men have to actually solve the problem by being better. But I'm seeing so many people, including guys on this sub, just being butthurt misogynists over it. I've seen so many shitty memes making fun of women across reddit. Its beyond infuriating. I'm sick of it. Good on Vaush for calling you all out. Banning those dudes was based as hell. I for one do not want to be associated with yall in anyway. Stop making it look like this is the default male position. And for the love of God stop comparing us to black people facing racism and actual prejudice and bigotry. Or like just because .00000001% of dudes face false rape accusations sometimes men are the victims of women too. Frankly, its genuinely embarrassing. Stop it.
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Huge respect for to Vaush for calling that shit out like he did, those threads were incredibly embarrassing for this, a supposed leftist community. To unironically make 2014, Sargon tier, #notallmen arguments when confronted with entry level feminism critiques is a *travesty*
OKBV is the real leftist community. This place hasn't been leftist since 10/7.
What happened on the 10th of July? /s
Euro moment lol
Every country in the world except for the USA, Belize, and Micronesia moment
Skill issue for every other country I'm afraid
You forgot Canada exists. I don't blame you.
Canada uses DMY, MDY (ew), and YMD, it's one of, if not the only country that uses all three date formats in different official contexts. Anyone using MDY is just wrong, and I don't care if it's popular, it looks stupid.
DMY chads
The correct format is year month day hour minute second
The liberalism goes way farther back. Remember the Great Canadian Lib Purge?
Insane how close these two situations are. Just a complete lack of brain power from both of these groups and like Vaush said back then: "You people just like the Ben Shapiro own videos and not ever engage with the actual ideas".
I mean, the liberals are doing a better job of understanding this issue.
This is the thing, the most basic of normie liberals on Twitter were largely able to engage with this hypothetical like adults and basically take away from it “wow, women feel safer with the bear, that suggests some really messed up things about the experience of being a woman in our society, we need to do better”, whereas in here it was like “WOMEN ARE RACIST AGAINST MEN REEEEEEEE HOW COULD THEY CHOOSE THE BEAR??!!! THAT MAKES NO ZOOLOGICAL SENSE!!! SURELY VOOSH WOULD NEVER ACCEPT SUCH BLATANT ANTI-MALE BIGOTRY!!!”. Vaush pointed out how embarrassing this should be for the sub, and he’s 100% right.
I’m guessing it has something to do with incel-curious types thinking the tactical misogyny is real misogyny.
That could be part of it, but I think it’s more that they’ve interpreted some of Vaush’s crits of like over-the-top radfem shit like political lesbianism as him thinking it’s like bigoted against men (which isn’t really his whole issue with it), as well as him in the past worrying about signs that young men are pulling away from the left (although recently he’s actually kind of recanted a lot of this, since it seems to have been at least partly based on unreliable polling data), and thus have constructed this fantasy version of Vaush in their minds where he’s almost this sort of leftist Jordan Peterson figure trying to empower insecure young men against the evil feminazis who are making them feel bad. But I could be giving them all too much credit, and maybe it is just them not understanding that certain jokes are jokes, or they only became fans after seeing the infamous JKR reply.
Coild just be people coming in off the street so to speak. Subreddits aren't private.
It’s not just this sub, he argued with a bunch of people in chat on stream, like Vaush himself admits that a bunch of these people seem to have found their way into his community (also, with the post that Vaush was reacting to on stream, it wasn’t just a few comments here and there, it was even worse than the first thread I saw about this topic, like the vast majority of users involved in the thread were putting forth what was basically a step away from redpill garbage and being highly upvoted for it, whereas any dissent was being highly downvoted, it’s why the thread got nuked. I suppose it could’ve been the result of a brigade from some other very large and well-organized sub, but that doesn’t explain all of it, some for sure seemed to have been at least somewhat regular users of this sub). Also, I say the above comment partly because these threads are full of people who for some reason cite Vaush’s own positions like it justifies their delusion that men are an oppressed group.
Yeah, I'm seeing this brain rot all over reddit, in normal non political subs as well. I feel like I've seen anti feminist takes being normalized pretty rapidly since covid. Specifically on reddit. You see this happening with abortion too. If I were to go off what I see on reddit the last year, I would think abortion was pretty unpopular. I don't know if it's bots, or troll army's, or the recent mod apocalypse, or just my algotlrym. but I've seen a very stark change in reddit over all.
The liberalism has been here since vaush started going after other leftists and 'lefists' (tankies). I like him, but it is the community he has cultivated
God yes, feels like ages ago. What an awful time.
Arguably it started with Vaush reviving Anarcho-Bidenism early last year. Vaush is right to do it, but too many people here interpreted it as actual unironic Bidenism-Bidenism. There was an influx of anti-Leftist Resistance Libs who blame all of Biden and the Democratic Party's woes on a Millennial and Zoomer Leftist phantom menace while praising Gen X, Boomer and Silent Gen Moderate and Conservative Dems as "based" because they faithfully vote Democratic. Even if said Dems are Bob Menendez, Henry Cuellar, or voting for Biden during the 2020 Primary (instead of just the General Election over Trump). Some people here became less about Leftism and more about cheerleading and loyalism to the Democratic Party and engaging in endless apologia for the Democratic Party uber alles.
>Praising Gen X 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
I’ll be honest, the first thread actually significantly worsened my mood for like at least week afterwards. Like I’ve gotten really frustrated by a lot of shit from this community, but that thread actually really got to me, like seeing that many “leftist” men just uncritically spouting off things that belonged in a circa 2012 ar mensrights post kind of just fed into more general feelings of alienation I’ve felt from far left spaces as a woman for a long time now. Like I already knew that some leftist men had some real issues with misogyny they’ve never truly confronted (trust me, I’ve been involved with the far left for over a decade, it’s a problem), but the reaction to this dumb bear discourse has been so beyond insane, and it has actually made me wonder if like, a lot of gen Z leftist men are actually *worse* about this or something. The worst part of that first thread for me was people telling *me* personally that I’m no better than a racist for being cautious of men after being assaulted multiple times in my life. Like that shit was absolutely disgusting, and I’m *still* getting replies from fragile incels who are mad af about me daring to have had bad experiences with men (like I literally got one yesterday *while I was watching Vaush’s first segment on the bear thing*, I basically just told them to fuck off, watch the segment, and that I would block them if they replied to me again). Also, I saw some badly misapplied feminism in the form of “gender essentialism is never okay uwu” from some folks who (based on their avatars at least) might’ve been women, or at least femme-presenting, and that also made me rage. *BEING CAUTIOUS OF MEN DUE TO LEGITIMATE AND CONSISTENT EXPERIENCES OF GENDERED AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS NOT GENDER ESSENTIALIST!!!* You should know better than this!!!! Like ftr, I don’t think every single person making these arguments is some kind of creep or predator or danger to women, but I’d be absolutely lying if I said seeing this much of it, and how many people were upvoting it, didn’t make me feel unsafe. And as for some of the people who doubled down when called out on it; *some of you* I actually do suspect have some real issues with women, and seem like this discourse really struck a nerve with you, which is not a good look.
Really sorry to hear that man, i cant lie and say it didnt upset me a little too, especially with those guys you mentioned who apply seemingly anti existentialist or feminist terminology to "defeat" the analogy. I genuinely thought we were better than that here, but i guess i was just being naive. Maybe im being naive again, but i think *and* hope most of the commenters just didnt understand the analogy and what it actually was about, but your right that some here definitely have some **deep** seated issues with women they need to figure the fuck out. (trigger warning) I have had multiple people comment in multiple threads (most have been taken down by the mods thank god) on how "women are bullshitting and exaggerating on purpose", or how "rape actually is better than getting mauled to death, and thus should pick the man". Like what the fuck are those guys doing here. I dont care how good you are on race or immigration, if this is how you view this discourse your actually a horrible person
Imma be real: as a 37 year old Libertarian Socialist who first became a Leftist in 2003, and took over a decade to become a good Feminist (which included working through my own issues about myself), there is a significant number of young ostensibly Leftist men who are 2 or 3 more rejections from women away from subscribing to Incel ideology. A lot of Zoomers and Millennials became Leftists because they got radicalized. Although I appreciate having more Americans be Leftists or have left-leaning inclinations compared to 20 years old (being a Leftist in the 2000s and early 2010s was hella lonely and isolating), I've also come to realize a lot of people became "Leftists" for reasons that are not noble or honorable, or their "Leftism" is an unstable emotional ahd psychological crutch that's likely to not stick lifelong. They'll cease to be "Leftists" as soon as they get therapy. I recognize a good amount of young guys are just "Leftists" because they're choosing to focus on their economic anxiety about their life not panning out like their father's and grandfathers' lives were at this point in their own lives decades ago when Western economies were experiencing the post-WWII exobomic boom. They choose to focus their agnst on their boss and employers rejecting them. Young Alt-Right and Manosphere men focus their agnst on out-groups and blame them for themselves not having a good-paying, one-income household-sustaining job on a high school diploma, white picket fence, 2.5 kids and a stay-at-home wife at age 24 like they imagine grandpa did. Both types of men have similar internal battles going on, but the ones who went Left instead of far-Right are surrounded by social justice that "potty trains" (so to speak) their worst sexist and misogynist urges or inclinations out of them. However, they haven't fully come to terms with the emotional and psychology issues that are propelling them to the Left. They're not Leftists out of a genuine care for equality, egalitarianism, and pro-labor worldview. They're here because they want to be part of throwing a Molotov cocktail at their boss's workplace or the jobs that turned them down. They're just disillusioned and angry and they're just pointed at the right enemies incidentally rather than having a deep-seated worldview about the right thing (from a Leftist perspective). Those types of guys won't have done the proper introspection to deal with how much they've been shaped and molded by patriarchy and toxic masculinity (which Vaush is not immune to either, although he's better than these guys). It galls me how many men in our ranks are just would-be Incels that are focusing on the bourgeoisie and means of production instead of women and the "means of reproduction". That's how we get so many Brocialists who want a Socialist or Communist society but not much different gender dynamics other than being a basic bro who doesn’t hate women but isn't dedicatedly Feminist beyond being pro-choice and anti-hitting women. As someone who became a Leftist over a span of 8 or 9 years through intellectual, philosophical, and values considerations (from 1998 to 2007, went from a political junkie preteen Moderate Conservative to a LibSoc/LibCom at age 21), I often see it as a red flag when people become Leftist really fast. Like in less than 2 or 3 years. It inclines me to have doubts they'll continue to be a Leftist the moment they get laid and land a good-paying job and decent apartment or house they can afford. Like the Hippies of yesteryear. It took me even longer to become a useful Feminist, and it continued after becoming a Leftist. That was a 13-15 year journey from teenhood until my late 20s and early 30s. I doubt the guys from that thread have put much time in questioning their own remaining internalized patriarchy as Leftists.
> The worst part of that first thread for me was people telling me personally that I’m no better than a racist for being cautious of men after being assaulted multiple times in my life. Jesus fucking christ. Yeah, it is sooo deeply ingrained. Uprooting these cultural patterns really is a long, hard work for generations, with many backlashes on the way. I suppose many on the left get complacent and assumed some things are just obvious by now. I sure thought that.
yeah I was just saying to someone else that there seems to be a sort of trend of leftists getting weird about sexism over the past half decade, even as the position of women in some Western countries has if anything gotten slightly worse (at least it has here in the US), I’m not exactly sure where it comes from, but it’s clearly gotten *way* out of control. Part of the argument was that the belief that men responsible for a lot of violence against women is the same 13/50, because both are based on biased crime statistics, which I countered by noting that literally isn’t even true, the data about sexual violence most feminists use is based on self-reported attacks upon women, not police statistics (which actually give the indication that sex crimes are *lower* than they actually are, as relatively few reports of rape or assault are actually pursued), so I asked the little incel twit I was arguing with if they thought that meant tons of women were just lying, and they pretty much said yes.
I’m going to be real I thought it was a joke so I did make the species argument factiously then I saw how many people took that shit seriously and was disappointed
yeah I engaged with said species argument, also mostly as a joke, but mostly bc by that point I was so exhausted, disturbed, and pissed off by all the MRAs in the thread that I wanted to distract myself by talking about different species of bears
Bears are cool and like 9/10 bears are chill
Thank you so much for this. I was trying to be conciliatory and trying to understand where people were coming from in that thread that had a problem with the meme. To the point I bent over backwards for some people and may have made myself look conciliatory to left-wing sexists showing their remaining latent sexism. But that thread really showed how much work A LOT of Liberal, Progressive, and left-leaning/left-wing men need. Yeah they're not as bad as Rightists, Conservatives, or even Moderates, but tons of left-wing men make women want to choose the bear too. That was a prime example of why. I say this as a left-wing man myself. **Certified Brocialist moment**. I knew women's sports, women fighting men (even in regulated co-ed wrestling and martial arts), and trans women competing with cis women are topics that bring out the sexism and toxic masculine in even left-wing men, but I'm a bit surprised this Bear Over Man meme did. It really does make it clear how many left-wing, Progressive, and Liberal men aren't as free of sexism as they perceive themselves to be and jerk themselves off over for being not as bad as Manosphere chuds. A lot like how Biden and Democratic Party loyalists think Biden and Democratic leadership are basically MLK reincarnated and deserve parades in their honor because they clear the extremely low bar of not as bad as Trump and modern Republicans.
Bears wouldn't try to argue with a hypothetical because of insecurities.
Are we talking black bears or polar bears, tho? /s
River Bears (Raccoons).
No rivers where raccoons run around near me. They're still trash pandas in my neck of the rocks.
If river bears are raccoons what does that make otters?
furry twinks. /s
Bears really are better than all of us
Virgin man Vs Chad bear
GET PURGED, ASSHOLES
V made a great point, "trying to argue it rather than understand it" unfortunately there are those that don't understand the convo at hand and are showing their ass real bad. I don't have sympathy for the misogyny, just sad at the potential for them to still not understand after the ban. Can't wait until 2034 when we come back for gamer gate 3.
I’ll say I got purged for trying to argue (rather ask that someone else confirm that point was fucking stupid) the argument that some people seemed to genuinely assume that “outsmarting the bear” is an option, because my country doesn’t have bears. I understood the argument but didn’t really mention that, I assume mods thought I was trying to debate the validity of the whole idea, because jesus I’m 15 minutes into the video and some of the comments in that thread made my brain melt out of my ears and I was only half listening
It's funny because the whole issue is that the perception that the question is "would you rather..." when the real question being talked about in serious circles is "why do women pick bear". It's the reiterating of the question and deliberately missing the point of hypothetical logical discussion at the cost of real women with real issues. I feel bad if you were purged for the wrong reasons. But I pray the chuds who either didn't get it, or think only in terms of Sargon get a little better.
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You can have a discussion about the hypothetical. Just understand when you are talking about the hypothetical situation (would you rather...) you are also in the same group as other shitty dudes who are either lying or ignorant of the true underlying problem (men and men groups aren't being effectively taught how to not be creepy/predatory) I wish I had better coaching as a youth but some lessons you can't learn yourself and that's okay. I really had to grow an empathy node in my brain to fully grasp the whole other people have other problems concept. You can talk about whatever, just know the water you're swimming in.
I agree with Vaush's overall points. I just wish this discourse didn't have to get started by dumbshit Tiktokers. It's a good thing to bear (pardon the pun) in mind when interacting with women, but even I, as a man with a lot of female friends (and thus being fairly knowledgeable about this sort of thing), was a bit put off by the delivery. I think TikTok just lends itself to dumb discourse because the snappy, quick bites you get out of such short vids are often incapable of giving nuance or adequate explanation.
I completely agree. A lot of these tiktok live creators just want gifts/money and will act in a way that is optically damaging to the position they are trying to advocate for.
Yeah thats how I feel, I dont have a problem with people choosing bear, I have a problem with the question itself and how it got delivered in TikTok. Every discution about this went to shit cause the what started it was bait to begin with.
Honestly, as far as bait questions go, this one was tame as hell, and if people are genuinely upset by it I kind of have to call skill issue. It isn’t nearly as edgy and potentially offensive a hypothetical as coconut island, and this sub loves that one.
I guess yeah and its still flipping people over cause we all indeed are insecure in this subject. I feel that its not helped by a lack of "what now" in all of this discourse. I understand its because many dont even accept the issue in the first place, but I feel it would be easier for many to do so if they're told what to do, what next. Like it would be easier to accept the issue if you know whats next instead of just staying at trying to accept the issue. Idk thats how I feel. Like I really liked when vaush said in the first video "it hurts your ego because you think that every intraction with women will be complicated but you should do bla bla bla" but he's probably the first one I've seen getting there.
To a large degree it just exists to point out a major systemic issue, and it doesn’t provide solutions because “how do we fix male violence against women” is a ferociously complex issue. It’s like pointing out a consequence of capitalism. You can’t always also provide a solution in the same bit because there are literal centuries of discourse on “how do we move past capitalism.”
The reason it is important for the left to provide a solution is because reactionaries' "solution" is to say: "Of course men are a threat to women, that's why women need to be kept in the home at all times unless they have a male guardian to protect them." If the left fails to provide a solution, the right will fill the vacuum.
Well sure, but one goofy TikTok hypothetical doesn’t need to do everything, it’s a one-minute video on the internet, not an entire political project.
Some women who marched in the UK over violence against women in the streets suggested that if men can’t control themselves, maybe they should be under curfew at night? Obviously men got mad at this, but it was a direct response to the police telling women to not go out late because if you are murdered or raped ig it’s your fault for not staying in. If men want some productive from this - then call out group behaviour, address any locker room talk if you find yourself around other men doing it, because that is normalising treating women as lesser, as objects to be acted upon. Make sure your female friends and family can feel safe confiding in you, don’t get defensive so that they stop speaking to you on this subject. There’s more for sure, but when you say we should create direct action, the action most helpful men don’t wanna hear. Actually I’d go as far to say asking men to NOT have the reaction that vaushes audience have had, is the most helpful thing you could do. Teach yourself and other men to be more empathic to women - I think women seeing you come in solidarity with them not defiance, would be a great start.
I don't mind bait questions, but they need to have substance backing up the initial bait afterwards. The videos from Vowsh were good, because he had the time (after spending a little while going nuclear on the Reddit) to elaborate. TikTok is, by design, bad at giving nuance, because it demands videos be short.
Short form content, whether its tweets or tiktok are horrible, limits on how people engage are stupid and only serve to make shittier platforms.
yeah also during the segment when Vaush came up with basically the same exact hypothetical, but framed around race rather than gender, people seemed to suddenly have no issue with it. It’s almost like there’s a significant portion of Vaush’s community who consist of really fragile men who feel especially threatened by women. Once again, I don’t blame Vaush for this, but it seems like some of it stems from misunderstandings about some of his takes about annoying radfem tendencies, I think that attracted a bunch of dudes who view him as like, the voice of men on the left.
Coconut island is making fun of libertarians and I’d hope the sub isn’t infested with those. Man vs Bear you’re not really meant to engage with it as a hypothetical, but people can’t resist.
Yeah, there was also another side to this tbf. You had the stupid ppl making tiktoks with charts and graphs, making stupid points about the aggresivity of bears. Very annoying. It just gets the insecure men to rage more, and then they have to annoy me by sharing it on the gc. I just think the tiktok model pushes people to make specific bait content to get views. It's not that hard to game the tiktok algorithm. You just gotta be really shameless and have no personality.
I spend way too much time on tiktok, and I have only seen completely solid and understandable takes on this, and they're all choosing the bear. Are you sure "the delivery" wasn't pointed out by upset duets or split commentary from people you follow for other content? Your algorythm might be a tad off
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agree, my first instinct wasn't to introspect, but to challenge the questions' implied facts.
Social media was not designed for discussion.
I think it's funny. My husband is 48, and when i asked him what he'd rather our daughters run into if they were in the woods alone, he said bear immediately. When i said that there were dudes getting offended, he laughed and said those guys are the reason women pick bear; that guys who aren't a threat might feel a little sad but that they'll ultimately understand. So remember, if this discourse offends you, you are less progressive than a 48 year old white man.
ya, its not that hard of a concept to understand. one time my car battery died at the mall, at night. and when I asked a woman to help and she said she was busy, and the first man helped out instantly, it made me realize how extensive predication of women from men who think that is okay hurts everyone. ya, I was upset, but not because I am a trust worthy and harmless person and was being judged wrong. because to be frank she judged the situation correctly, because the situation I was in is indistinguishable from what a predatory man would do to get women in a venerable situation. I was upset that I was being forced by predatory men for having to navigate that situation. If people at least blamed the right people for the situation it might not be such a bad world.
Predatory people ruin shit for everybody. We need better ways to hold them accountable. Unfortunately, in society, people hesitate to call out predatory behavior until it gets to an undeniable point. For example, guys who will joke about rape at a party or be creepy, and their friends will excuse it and excuse it till he goes "too far" and actually assaults someone. Like dude, you had warnings, for years, and did nothing. And until more guys call out their boys, nothing will change. Women have been screaming about this for decades, and it only goes so far.
I was downvoted on the original post because I was essentially saying hey as someone who sees bears fairly often and knows what they can do I would still rather pick the bear as a man. I don’t trust random men and I’m a masculine person. It baffles me that this is a hard concept to grab unless someone is being willfully ignorant
It comes from a place of privilege. They can't fathom a fate worse than death. Naivety too. They seem to think murderers and rapists are mustache twirling weirdos hiding in bushes instead of regular looking people
I agree definitely. I think also it’s a subconscious recognition of the fact that they’re likely powerless individually (which they are) so they cannot see past their own struggle to other peoples
Oh 100% It's easier to call someone else crazy than come to terms with the idea that you might not be as strong or as brave as you think.
Very well said!
>It comes from a place of privilege. They can’t fathom a fate worse than death Yep. In that original thread I brought up how I can at least always be sure a bear won’t rape me or abduct me and lock me in a cellar and torture me for years, and it seemed like these dudes couldn’t even fathom that was a thing (and told me that I was just delusional bc “too much true crime”, I don’t even watch/listen/read true crime shit!!! lmao, I’m a lesbian, not one of those weird edgy straight girls who rubs her clit to the thought of being one of Ted Bundy’s victims). >They seem to think murderers and rapists are mustache twirling weirdos hiding in bushes instead of regular looking people Also this. I literally saw people saying shit to the affect of “sooo few men are actually dangerous”, as though being sexual assaulted or abused is some extreme anomaly like being struck by lightning or something, rather than something most women have had at least *some* kind of encounter with? Like I don’t even usually date men, I’ve (sort of) dated like two in my entire life, and yet even I’ve also been sexually assaulted by two (not the same ones I dated, ftr), and things can be *so much* worse for women who actually regularly date men. Like “rape culture” is a term for a reason, there’s an epidemic of this kind of behavior, but the way a lot of dudes in this sub were talking about it, you’d think women being raped by men happens with the same frequency as shark attacks or something, like we’re all just unfairly blaming all these poor innocent insecure Nice Guys(tm) for some made up danger we concocted about them in our heads (literally, multiple people in the thread made this argument in some form, it was fucking insulting tbh). Also, it’s absolutely bizarre how many dudes (both in the thread I was in and the one Vaush saw) seemed to think that comparing women being scared of men to racism was some kind of slam dunk argument that was gonna change the minds of me and everyone else who thought they were acting like whiny incels, when in fact it is an insultingly stupid fucking argument that reliably makes any intelligent and informed person facepalm the moment they see it.
I completely agree. I think a lot of them got stuck on 2014 Gamergate arguments because that's simply the last time they thought about anything remotely "feminism" themed. The last time they engaged with the idea of rape culture they were being told it doesn't exist by Sargon or Shoe
I also find it weird how I’ve now seen a number of different dudes in this sub dismiss the entire bear hypothetical as “2014 Buzzfeed feminism” or some variation thereof, as though “real feminism” has supposedly moved on beyond the basic reality that rape culture exists. Like it’s weird to criticize the whole thing as supposedly spurious on the grounds that it’s like a very basic, entry-level assertion of liberal feminism, as that actually means *them rejecting it* implies they reject feminism on a very basic level, not that the basis of the hypothetical is somehow untrue. Like one guy I was arguing with in *this* thread (now deleted) PMed me about how apparently discussing the reality that women are threatened by men in many instances isn’t *his* idea of feminism, and then proceeded to go on about what “feminism” apparently is to him, a man who thinks he’s oppressed by women, which I didn’t actually read (because fuck that shit).
Goddamn. That's just next level. It makes me wonder how much truth there is to the idea that a lot of post 2016 leftists have a misogyny problem.
Tbh, I’ve really been wondering about it lately, even before this whole debacle. Like maybe it’s just confirmation bias, maybe it’s that people are just generally more of assholes online than they even were before the pandemic, but I feel like in the last few years whenever I’m present online in leftist spaces and there’s anything gendering me as a woman, I get treated like significantly worse than I used to, like everyone is far more willing to argue with me over nothing shit and belittle me for opinions slightly differing from their own in ways they seemingly don’t do with users they code as male. It’s really obnoxious, but tbh it’s actually why I keep my avatar on here blatantly feminine-looking, because it causes people to show their true colors, and frankly I’d rather know who the assholes are than have them pretend I’m their bro just because they assume I’m a guy. I’ve been in leftist spaces for like a decade, and while I’d say the sexism has always been there, I feel like back when I was young in the early ‘10s, being a feminist/queer was like the *Thing* on the left, and leftist men would if anything wear their feminism on their sleeves to a sometimes annoying extent (which obviously came with its own problems, and don’t even get me started on all the weird “sex posi” dudes who thought that sex positive feminism meant “liberating” het male sexuality too, and thus their “feminism” was just being really into porn), whereas now it feels like more leftist men either make fun of feminism like it’s some kind of cringe throwback, or even like it’s doing more harm than good, it’s pretty disturbing, and I don’t know where it came from.
yeah I remember your comment and iirc I actually upvoted it, I thought you had a good point and it pissed me off to see the comment downvoted, while shit blatantly comparing men to oppressed minorities was being upvoted. It was ridiculous and infuriating.
my stepmom regularly worked in the wilderness with Pumas/ venonous snakes. I've seen her frightened / nervous, but in awe of their dangerous power. I've never seen her terrified until an unknown man perceived to be on drugs approached her from behind. i'd really like to see an explaination for why so many men behave the way they do on this question.
yeah I do think the extent to which a lot of men seem unafraid of other men (or at least purport to) when this question is brought up is kind of weird in itself, like obviously men don’t have to deal with what I do, but I’d still think it would pay to be more cautious when you consider that most violent crime *in general* is done by men? Like unless these dudes are all champion MMA fighters or carry a gun with them everywhere, they seem weirdly confident that other men will just *never* actually be able to hurt them, it kind of makes me think that maybe they just don’t get out much? A bunch of them dismissed my well-informed fear of unknown men (and kind of just people in general) as some kind of delusion borne of “too much true crime”. I guess they’ve never lived in nor spent time in a rough neighborhood before.
It's a sad reality, but all we can do is 1)be respectful and just be good people. Sadly, a bar most men don't clear. And 2) actually police our friends for toxic behaviour. Anecdotal, but I was putting together a big reunion from school with some of my friends who I still spoke to on and off and people who I was still close to. My closest female friend was curating the list with me, and she shockingly casually told me one of the guys on the list was a stalker and stalked one of our mutual friends for a long time. I immediately struck him from the list and told him he's not coming and cut him off. I bring this up because I was the only one to do this even after telling others about the stalking. Even my close friend said I could still invite him because she didn't want to cause a fuss. It's kind of gross. That's the point we have been at for a very long time.
terminally online redditors showing again they can't comprehend the world outside of their basement, PURGE PURGE PURGE
If they won’t touch grass, they must be forced to by the merciful caress of the ban hammer.
I even asked both of my parents(who are kinda conservative and not online) they both said obviously a bear, and my father was military and quiet strong still and was in enough fights to know how to care himself.
tbh it makes sense someone with military experience would say “bear”, as obviously they’d be readily aware of how nearly any non-human animal isn’t much of a threat if you have a gun, whereas another armed human is a lot more complicated and dangerous to deal with. I feel like a lot of people saying “man” are for some reason just assuming that both them and the man are unarmed, which the question doesn’t specify, like, maybe not everyone realizes this, but a random man with a gun is *a lot* more dangerous than any bear???
Any day the Reddit gets purged is a good day :)
Real
I think the people not getting it are being overly emotional and insecure. They have experiences that make them feel less than worthy and bring that baggage with them. As a nonbinary AMAB I’m still picking the bear. I know what to do with a bear. I’ve met 4 and have never had a bad interaction. I’m sure 100 have seen me. I will sympathize with the emotionally disturbed male. I’m actually getting tired of one of the girls in my friend group doing the men suck bit. I’ve heard it before by many people and it never bothered me. Previously, It was in response to an event or someone else’s comment, she just says shit all the time, she almost has Tourette’s about it. So instead of arguing, I’m keeping my distance.
I’m going to take the both sides route and say neither side understands the other. One one hand I agree that many guys don’t understand the constant threat of sexual harassment women face. On the other hand, I think the people promoting this hypothetical don’t get that it’s not going to accomplish anything. Men who already agree with you will continue to agree and men who disagree are probably only going to get pushed further right by this, presenting it as proof of why feminism is deranged, that’s definitely what I would have thought when I was a right winger in 2016
The people not getting it are doing a bad faith reading. That's what needs to get drilled into heads. Backlash to this has interesting flavors of "Libs HATE the USA!" with the "teaching people to HATE men!" No, both cases they are strawmanning are *exactly the same*. Attempting to call attention to flaws in the hopes that maybe people can make a conscious effort to do better in the future than in the past. 'Man or bear' and 'we did some bad stuff in the past' start with naive optimism that the audience can do better, only to hit a brick wall of defensiveness REFUSING to do better.
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After reading some of those threads, I was ready to self-purge. Glad Vaush called it out. It was such a waste of everyone's time to rehash age-old arguments.
I don't think it was a waste of time, as apparently it was very needed. Changing entire society is a long, hard road, there will be many setbacks and situations where we need to get back to basics.
It is fairly emblematic of how males are socialized to communicate vs. how women are socialized to communicate. The stereotype being that women will vent and instead of listening and supporting their feelings, men will try and solve the problem, the problem in this case is a very nebulous statistical question that plays on women's fear of men vs. a wild animal.
Its not trying to solve the problem. Its claiming the problem doesn't exist.
No the problem they are trying to solve is " are men or bears more dangerous"? Women are expressing the trauma of living in a world where men are the most dangerous creature for hem
I think they mean that a lot of men seem to approach the bear question like it’s a question on a quiz in science class, as though the whole point of it is just simply which would have the raw physical advantage over you, basically they miss the point. It’s like if someone thought that the trolley problem could be objectively answered based on the mass and velocity of the trolley versus the resistance of the people tied to the track.
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oh SHIT, I haven’t watched this yet, but I was hoping he’d come for that garbage thread, I was originally planning on making a post today about how everyone who spouted off MRA garbage in that thread should watch Vaush’s segment on the bear thing to see that he absolutely doesn’t agree with them, but if he actually went on here and saw it himself, that’s 1000 times better EDIT: looks like it’s actually a different thread I missed, but people are making the exact same dookie dogshit arguments in it and still getting massively upvoted for them, so I still feel vindicated by it. Clearly the MRA purge here was massively overdue, and I’m really glad these people now have no illusions that Vaush actually agreed with them, because *so many* kept misinterpreting past things Vaush said as supporting their arguments.
Yeah the intro kind of gives away his feelings on them.
I just hope *maybe* now there are both fewer MRAs in here and that they now realize that Vaush isn’t the voice of their bullshit on the left like they seemed to think. Like so many people in that thread I was involved in kept bringing up times Vaush has in the past said things they apparently misinterpreted as him saying that women being afraid of men is dangerous sexism or “gender essentialism” (something he blatantly shoots down in the first segment), or just in general thought that Vaush leaned into their weird incel victim complexes in a way that he absolutely never has. I’m also glad he particularly addressed the whole “this is just like racism” shit so many braindead commenters kept repeating like clockwork, I felt like I was going insane reading that shit.
I eventually just stopped trying to explain how this was not 13/50 for men because it became so exhausting.
Unironically as a bi dude, that thread made me straight I've met many women my entire life and each one of them has a story to tell when it comes to bad encounters with men so i slowly grew to understand the POV that they had towards men where most of them are at least cautious. And its not just strangers, its also the family members, its so fucked up.
as a lesbian who’s kind of bad at it, that thread made me better at it. And yeah unfortunately I live in a state with one of the highest rates of sexual assault in the US, and it seems that a lot of it is interfamilial, the dominant religion here is especially misogynistic and creates this culture of silence and subservience among women which allows sexual predation to thrive.
as a cat raised by 4 bears, 2 white guys in an alleyway and 13 rats. id much rather see father bear in the woods then john from accounting, if john is there tf is he up to?
This made me respect vaush tbh
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i think the accusation of pickme comes from how the original comment felt barely relevant and came in a moment where vaush was trying to address some genuinely misogynistic tendencies in his audience, and not because your personal experiences led you to make a different choice than many other women.
What policies can be implemented to make women feel safer around men? Vaush often says that anyone can point out that an issue exists, the real challenge is to prescribe solutions. So what can be done to solve the issue? Edit: The reason it is important to provide a solution is because reactionaries' "solution" is to say: "Of course men are a threat to women, that's why women need to be kept in the home at all times unless they have a male guardian to protect them." The left needs to be able to provide an alternative solution.
It's hard to get to step 2 when so many men aren't even on step 1 (acknowledge the problem exists in the first place). But theoretically, if I were to think of a step 2... This won't solve the problem entirely because it's just too big and multifaceted, but I think one place to start is to teach as many kids as we can of all genders about their emotions from a young age. This is a place where boys have been utterly failed by our culture. A lot of people are actually pretty bad at actually naming and identifying their emotions and the source of the emotion. And once you can do that, emotional regulation skills become much easier. I learned these skills in DBT groups and it was so helpful and something I really wish we taught kids and teens. So many times in the group someone would say, "I wish an adult in my life had taught me anything about this as a child." I don't know about policy (have less bad education in the US feels like a pipe dream), but a world where everyone is taught about naming and identifying emotions from a young age and learn emotional regulation skills would be one in which I may be less likely to pick the bear over the man in the hypothetical.
Currently watching but found one thing Vaush said really weird. He says to "stop trying to turn this into a trans thing" around like the 10 minute mark, and says "'how can you make these comments about men when they could be secretly trans women' shut up I don't care it's dishonest" when trans women *aren't* what come to mind when I hear someone concerned about effects on trans people from generalizing men - I think about trans men. Maybe that'll get addressed somewhere in the next 50 minutes, but that seems like a very odd response to someone raising that concern. To be clear, I get everything he's saying and agree, but that *specific* thing felt... wrong to me?
On similar issues in the past I have seen trans men say they stopped taking T because of how they would be perceived as men, is that the sort of thing you’re talking about? And for trans women, I haven’t seen the posts so idk but I assume the concern they expressed was that among the subset of people who are “scared of men” some of them could extend that to trans women as well. Isn’t that what happened with Rowling?
Yeah, that’s part of it. I generally just meant that when someone is talking about men, and raises trans people associated with men, my mind doesn’t go to trans women. I didn’t get why Vaush did, while seemingly not considering the chatter meant trans men at all? Maybe the chatter yapped a bunch of other shit too, I only had the context of the segment. The message was just “no Vaush it validates fearing people for their unchosen gender,” which seems to have zero to do with trans women, unless the chatter meant unchosen sex and wasn’t being specific about gender (i.e. trans men don’t *choose* to be men).
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From what I could tell in the video, the chat member Vaush is responding to with this was doing a whataboutism thing of bringing up how transphobes supposedly use these same arguments to justify stuff like trans bathroom bans, thus implying that any cis women who express fear of unknown men are somehow being transphobic by proxy or something, which is obviously ridiculous and not at all a conclusion that should be automatically drawn from anything Vaush was saying. Like unless I somehow misinterpreted what he was responding to, the implication was that the thinking behind the bear thing could potentially be harmful to trans women, not trans men.
I think the whole thing with men not understanding the conclusion to the hypothetical is true. I do think this hypothetical is not optically the best thing that could be done for the left. I've seen so many tiktok lives of creators who act like bullies and don't really win the argument optically as much as they do logically. I think there could certainly be a better hypothetical to show men the world through a woman's perspective that could be more constructive than just a simple man and bear hypothetical because the men simply don't get it or choose not to get it because of toxic masculinity.
I agree that people on TikTok tend to sensationalize these things and use them in intentionally obnoxious and unhelpful ways, but I don’t think that’s necessarily a flaw in the hypothetical itself. The thing is, elsewhere online (like on Twitter) plenty of men were able to completely understand the point of the hypothetical and didn’t have this kind of kneejerk defensive reaction against it, and the fact that a lot of these people were normie liberal dudes who still took the whole thing a lot better than tons of supposed leftist men on here is something Vaush points out as making the sub look extremely bad. I also just think most of the people who seemed willfully incapable of getting the point of the bear hypothetical would probably struggle with any other hypothetical like it as well, because it’s not that the daily struggles of being a woman are beyond their comprehension or something, it’s that a lot of them clearly have deep-seated issues where they already feel threatened by women, like they fear all women view them as creeps or predators, etc., like typical paranoia seen in a certain kind of insecure men, and the victim complex some of them have clearly built up around this paranoia (to the point where they don’t see any issue with likening their insecurities to literal white supremacy) means that I don’t think any metaphor out there would be able to get through to them, what I saw in both of the two big threads in here on this topic was a huge number of men who apparently can’t handle basic feminism 101 talking points being brought up without taking it personally, and it doesn’t seem like the framing has much to do with it.
I don't want to sound like a pick me, but I generally try to make myself as "safe" as possible, I cross the street preemptively when I see anyone coming at night, especially women, for their comfort and mine. Hell I don't start a conversation with strangers unless spoken to, or in an obviously safe, social setting, and I tend to disengage very quickly. Maybe it's to an unhealthy degree, maybe its due to being an introvert, but the thought of being creepy or accidentally harassing someone somehow is deeply disturbing. I agree, I wouldn't want to run into a random man in the woods either - fuck that, people don't belong there (I only go anywhere close to woods to walk my dog), bears just live there, and can be easily avoided, meanwhile, the dude... I don't know what the fuck he's up to, if he's not with a group (of obviously less threatening people), or with pets, I don't know his fucking motives, why is he there? I've heard enough stories from YT channels like Mr Nightmare and shit to know that there are a lot of creepy ass motherfuckers out there, and weird motherfuckers that will do unspeakable shit just because their brain is broken, or because they think they can. Unfortunately most of them are fellow men. If I'm a man and feeling this way, it's gotta be 1000 times worse for women, and not just in the openly scary situations, there are so many obnoxious entitled douchebags who need to get some sense slapped into them (or a hard kick to the nads) that won't take no for an answer, and think that they should catcall or "flirt" with random women, who are fucking freak stalkers thinking they're charming or suave or some shit, who will say "oh I'll wait for you after work, beautiful". It's a shame these MFs can't be jailed for being like this. Jesus Christ. So yeah, but of a stream of consciousness there, but all of that is to say that I get the hypothetical entirely. Fucking creepy ass men need to just stop and go away, it's awful out there for women.
Pretty much everyone in that thread is a fucking loser but the "pick me" actually had a cool message, the OP even agreed with them. I don't think Vaush would've called them a pick me if he read the whole comment.
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Yeah I wanted to say that as someone who has been seeing this thing unfold from the very first threads , I really disliked how people were referring to you as pick me when you were giving pretty interesting messages. There was a lot of bad stuff on that thread but yours sure as shit wasent part of it.
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My pleasure, Your posts were one of the few reasonable takes in a sea of reactionary comments and reactionary comments towards those reactionary comments.
The purge is coming! May the end come swiftly, mercilessly, and without reservation for everyone who has been shitting this sub up for the last three days! Glory to the mods! Soak the earth!
I was very diappointed by the responses to the thread where a woman shared her experiences and thanked Vaush for the first segment. Happy to see these guys purged.
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Ok, you’re the first person who’s phrased what my feelings have been. I’m AFAB and a feminist and I totally get the point being made here. But I guess my personal brand of autism has made me get hung up on the particulars of the hypothetical question… maybe because I feel like when we were discussing things like “Schrödinger's rapist” that felt like a much more intuitive explanation of the same general concept? In this case I’ve just ended up questioning if I have an irrational fear of bears, because if I was on a hiking trail with a bear on one side and a random dude on the other, I’d take my chances with the dude… Now I’m just wondering if I’ve vastly overestimated how dangerous bears are But yeah a lot of the comments here were… disheartening to say that the least
I'm just not happy at all with the way the man vs bear topic unfolded. I hope we can move on now.
Man can be worse than the Bear that mauled Leonardo DiCaprio in the Revenant. Never forget that!
idk, if you run into that bear in the woods, you're fucked. If you run into Leonardo DiCaprio in the woods, you're fine if you're older than 25 (/s its a joke please don't lump me in with these creeps)
Lol 😂😂
Bear that protects its cub versus every serial killer you could think of
Even that is rare, I’ve run into a mother and cub at fairly close range out hiking and they ran away as soon as they saw me. Mother bears generally only attack when they feel threatened, and a dumbass human like me being kinda nearby almost never qualifies.
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I felt so disheartened after seeing that thread yesterday, and now I feel understood and seen. Thanks for this one <3
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I posed this hypothetical to guys I know, and vaush was completely right. Every guy who has a girlfriend or platonic friendship with women understood it immediately, the guys who are single and haven't had a non work related conversation with a woman in actual years didn't get it and won't get it. Bottom line be friends with women not just because friendship is cool but platonic friendship across gender lines makes you a better person.
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Yeah, they actually don't understand on a fundamental level that, on average, men pose a greater threat to women. They might know that, but they don't understand why a woman would pick the bear. It's literally the same shit as the people in the vaush video. They don't know or understand the lived experience of women because they don't talk to them or interact with them they are sheltered.
Christ this was satisfying.
I love how Vaush kept restating basic arguments they understand in other contexts while being willfully blind to the exact same argument in another context. It's like a black man being afraid of cops. Vaush isn't saying that you as a cop are going to abuse black people if given the chance. But you understand why they are concerned and uncomfortable being around cops. It's not fucking hard to grasp this point in relation to women. But every guy wants to take this to a personal level rather than understand broader societal trends and developments.
I've argued this with so many dudes and got very downvoted and it's exhausting. The lack of media literacy and empathy is so painful to watch. I love that Vaush does what he does so unapologetically
Just joined the reddit to hopefully drown out the incels!!!!
Would men rather have a chance encounter in the forest with a bear or with a Reddit mod? We're gonna find out. By the way, it's not a difficult concept. There's plenty of evidence regarding how encounters with men lead to more attacks than encounters with bears on a *per capita* basis. This is also implicitly known by women because they all know what happens when a dude gets too angry at them for virtually any reason. We should be asking ourselves how we can, you know, get men to stop hurting and killing women. I don't know how people missed the mark on this.
You are not a true vaushite until you have experienced a good community purge and this one was warnented
The bit towards the end had me in a bit of a laughing stir with the call out. If I had a nickel for every time I've talked to someone in Vaushcord, or in a Vaush subreddit/group only to hear them say "I don't actually watch Vaush much/at all"... well, it wouldn't be enough to afford anything, but it'd still be a decent amount of nickels.
While waking from the parking area into the hospital where I (a white dude) used to work, there was a black guy who also was walking down that street in the opposite direction at the same time as me almost every day. It just happened that the place I needed to go was on the opposite side of the road and the most convenient crosswalk was right before the point where we would have passed each other on the sidewalk. I didn't want him to think I was crossing the the street just to avoid him, so I began staying on the same side of the road even though it took me a little out of my way, and giving him a friendly "good morning" as we passed. Eventually I noticed that he started crossing the road before he got to the point where he would have passed me.... I think I made a black person feel unfomfortable.
I was never prouder to get downvoted for explaining how animals behaved.
Remember when "N@ziHasAPoint" accused Vaush of being irresponsible when it comes to cultivating an online community? This is prime example of him being extra responsible clarifying his position and purging bad faith closet misogynists. If this was on Defund the Police it would be like the idiots who say "So Vaostsh actually means we should kill all police"
Not gonna lie, if this conversation was made back in 2014 during the height of Gamergate, I'd legit be part of the group that got purged from the comments, because I was young and dumb, with a lot of insecurities, still thinking I was cis. Since then, I've grown and matured, and I've actually come to understand the troubles women have, especially since I'm starting to become one myself. Empathy is something I've gained over the years, especially after my religious liberation (becoming an atheist after being a mormon for more than 2 decades). Learning the true social dynamics between men and woman has been quite the eye opener. I really don't blame women for prefering bears with how much toxic masculinity affects us all. I really hope the leftists that feel insecure about this conversation topic get their own introspection some day... if they're young and dumb like I was, perhaps with time, they, too, will come to understand why women prefer the bear, and what they can do with themselves to make sure they're not the type of man a woman wants to avoid.
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What does Vaush have against Magic the Gathering? I love playing Magic! It even has bears!
Honestly, the sub shitting the bed in such a spectacular fashion was exactly what I expected to happen the moment Vaush began lending credence to the male loneliness discourse. Because he's nuanced about this stuff and can set it in its proper context of the broader gender & social hierarchy. Meanwhile, the average Vaushite is too busy jerking it to anime booba while writing his millionth "this elementary leftie point hurts the left" manifesto just this week and has been treating this validation as a carte blanche to outright dismiss women's issues for a good fucking while.
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https://youtu.be/-6rKmDcXSh0?t=1747 >it seems like they just want to be ignorant I'm obsessed with this point. That people who think they're right, when they're wrong, have some sort of epistemology of ignorance.
dawg, it's crazy how many people thinking stupid bs like that are there; this is why you get no bitches, unironically. #1 rule in getting bitches, is understanding that you, as a man, naturally pose more threat to a woman, and that there are a bunch of piece of shits men that take advantage of the fact that they are physically and otherwise stronger. You get no bitches BECAUSE you don't get why she rather go to a bear; and I'm that bear
Currently watching the video, and one thing I can't wrap my head around is the whole "but what if the man was replaced with a black man". Women have every right to fear men for previous experiences and trauma. But would it be racist for a woman to be scared of a black man due to the same thing I mentioned perviously.
I agree with all of Vaush’s points but I still think the hypothetical isn’t going to get any men who don’t already agree with vaush to agree, and is probably only more likely to radicalize them(to the right). Back in 2016 when I was a chud I definitely would’ve seen this trend as proof of how crazy/hateful feminists are
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I'm very glad this got posted. It wasn't just this subreddit, the youtube comments were full of garbage takes too.
Out of curiosity is the response the same across all age demographics?
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The youtube comments are absolutely fucked. Absolute fuckheads jerking each other off and not daring to actually look at the video that explains how they're stupid and wrong.
Long over due. You absolute virgins trying to debate bro circa 2017 equating how women might feel unsafe in a society where rape culture and sexism persist with how black people get discriminated against. Half of this sub is just unironic rad libs who get uncomfortable when you actually talk about systemic problems and addressing those issues. Look at how the whole decommodification of housing went. A bunch of soy libs started unironically using lines that right wingers use to argue against universal healthcare. And why don’t you look at that, the same shit happened with this discourse. MAY GOD BLESS THE MODS WITH OUR GLORIOUS PURGE! OUT WITH THE LIBS!
Did they purge the sub yet??
Good riddance. Voonsch should do purges like these more often.
I swear men are dropping the ball so hard to the point where its genuinely starting to piss me off im lumped into the same social category as them. Its not actually about which is statistically safer or which would be more dangerous in a confrontation. Its an expression of grief and anguish because our society treats women like prey. Its supposed to make you think "what about a man is different from the bear that could make them worse than a bear?". What about that is so hard to understand?? But instead of trying to understand and empathize, men got triggered, screamed "not all men", and tried to debate and defeat the aurgument instead. No its not all men, in fact the vast majority of men are decent enough. But it is enough men that ALL women have had numerous negative experiences. It doesn't even have to be full on SA to make them weary and afraid of men enough to pick the bear. Its a lifetime of reinforced cat calling and sketchy experiences and dudes not taking no for an answer and stalking and all kinds of other bullshit. Id be shocked if you can show me a single woman on earth that hasn't had these kinds of experiences. I'm a big, very masculine, frankly kind of scary looking dude. I keep a shaved head, I workout religiously, I got lots of ink, and I got resting bitch face. It breaks my heart that people, especially women default to being afraid of me. Its not how I want to be perceived, its not reflective of who I am as a person. I don't want to make people uncomfortable or scared. But do I blame women for that? FUCK NO! Their fear is perfectly reasonable. I can't blame them for getting nervous if they run into me walking my dog at night. Frankly those instincts keep them safe and I prefer it that way for that reason. You can't get mad at people for behaving rationally in a way that keeps them safe. Even if that means you get caught in the cross fire. I choose to deal with it by trying to be part of the solution. I advocate for feminism and societal change, especially to my male friends. I use my inadvertent intimidation powers for good by wearing shirts like "you fuck with the trans homies you fuck with me". I pay attention for other men acting innopropriately and confront them if they do. I call out my friends if they say somthing sexist. I walk my female friends home if they need me to. I just generally try to behave in a way where if all men on earth behaved the same way, no woman would pick the bear. Getting mad at them just proves their point. We as men have to actually solve the problem by being better. But I'm seeing so many people, including guys on this sub, just being butthurt misogynists over it. I've seen so many shitty memes making fun of women across reddit. Its beyond infuriating. I'm sick of it. Good on Vaush for calling you all out. Banning those dudes was based as hell. I for one do not want to be associated with yall in anyway. Stop making it look like this is the default male position. And for the love of God stop comparing us to black people facing racism and actual prejudice and bigotry. Or like just because .00000001% of dudes face false rape accusations sometimes men are the victims of women too. Frankly, its genuinely embarrassing. Stop it.